Develop Bugs

Sensitive material: the xda-developers point of view.

Hi Everybody,
We noticed that there is some confusion when it comes to posting sensitive material on xda-developers.com and mostly about what can and can't be posted.
We would like to clarify our point of view through this post.
Since the start of xda-developers this has always been a site that once in while has some sensitive material online, through the years this site has grown so big it's no longer possible to check every file on our servers or every post on the board, we also feel it wouldn't benefit the community if we did.
However with increased popularity comes an increased amount of legal complaints when sensitive material is found on our servers. Which is the reason why we have been more careful lately. Recently some sensitive material has shown up on the servers and we received legal complaints from companies who have the copyrights for this material, although we all feel this is very interesting and valuable material we cannot risk the future of xda-developers by ignoring the legal requests we receive, therefore this material has been taken offline.
We understand that maintaining the balance between legal and illegal is sometimes confusing and/or difficult but that is unfortunately how it works.
When it comes to posting sensitive material there are a couple suggestions we can make:
- if possible do not post the files on the xda-developers servers.
- use your common sense (if you feel something might not be legal it probably isn't).
- always keep in mind when posting software of any kind, that we will take it offline if there is a legal complaint from the copyright owner.
Warez is in no way accepted and will be removed upon discovery.
I hope this post will serve as a clear and valuable guideline.
Greetz,
Flar
Site admin.
P.s. When you have any questions you can always contact me or one of the moderators.

anyone can contact me also if they have any questions about any files you want to post.. i apparently have no life and spend way to much time on the boards, so you should get a timely response!

I totally agree
It is very important to keep safe a site with so many knowledge and so many resources online. xda-dev and all of its users have done a lot for the community, and I think that if it wasn't for this site, windows mobile devices wouldn't have been so successful.

I agree also. I think you guys do a great job and as members of this family we need to do our part

actually whenever a person types words such as "crack" or "keygen", they should be automatically eliminated or turn into something like "i am a loser".
we've been getting way too much of thieves here recently

I'm still curious about the Dutty Kaiser WM6.1 Rom Link that got removed.
Was that just a link to A rapidshare/megaupload?
Or was that on XDA servers.
Have there been anymore legal complaints about wm6.1 Roms from Kaiser 5.2.19.199 Build now heavily available on many other devices?

need your opinion
hi,
i'm doing this 'directory' for dummies for prophet users.
i made it just because want to make it as easier as it can be to be understand by the beginners.
--> prophet directory for dummies
if you or any other moderators found it is not relevant, do inform PM me.
hoping that this thread can be sticky.
regards..

It's a very tenuous and risky fine line this whole Forum draws when you really look at it.
Every cooked ROM can be looked at as a hack! using proprietory software as its basis.
Every HardSPL can be looked at as a crack! unlocking a device that is specifically locked by a manufacturer.
A keygen is developed as a standalone piece of SW that generates a code that the user decides how he alone will use.
It's all very nice to say HTC "allow" this to happen for developement while not looking anyone directly in the eyes.
Realistically, this site should only contain SW actually and completely written line-by-line by the individual...
We are all guilty in one way or another as everyone here is an accomplice after the fact!

only HTC... ??
An observation ...
This site should be open to other device that HTC.
I had 4 devices HTC, and whenever quality has declined. I believe that the next device will no longer be an HTC.
The manufacturer is rude with its customers (problem of video drivers on Kaiser and Cruise, etc.). HTC does not respond to e-mails. I was a fan of this brand. My next machine will probably be the Samsung SGH-i900 Omnia, which I hope the quality higher than the lasts touchphones HTC ...
It would be really pleasant-XDA Developers focuses on the characteristics of this Samsung Omnia ... and that we produce some new ROM test for this new phone.
But this site is perhaps subsidized by HTC?
Excuse me for my bad English (I only speak french)

well if i may interject myself,
the site should be open to all devices carried that are or will be carried by XDA. Thats the name, and thats how it ought to be. Anachronistic, but elegantly interesting

jeannot61 said:
An observation ...
This site should be open to other device that HTC.
I had 4 devices HTC, and whenever quality has declined. I believe that the next device will no longer be an HTC.
The manufacturer is rude with its customers (problem of video drivers on Kaiser and Cruise, etc.). HTC does not respond to e-mails. I was a fan of this brand. My next machine will probably be the Samsung SGH-i900 Omnia, which I hope the quality higher than the lasts touchphones HTC ...
It would be really pleasant-XDA Developers focuses on the characteristics of this Samsung Omnia ... and that we produce some new ROM test for this new phone.
But this site is perhaps subsidized by HTC?
Excuse me for my bad English (I only speak french)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If HTC Phones where perfect, well there would prolly be less of XDA
But at least Samsung understands what the word Samera Means.
And there is some Unlocking and Cooking going on for a few Non HTC hardware Based phones out there. (Unless i'm wrong and they are HTC hardware base anyway)
But sort of back to the subject.... How about some people selling ROM's made by anyone but themselves on Amazon and whatnot?
That is beyond unsensitive.
If people are doing this. They prolly do this because they can make money of of it.

arent all roms illegal? i mean the phone statment "sorry t be so blatent forgot the actual statment name" but dealing with cellphones the statment, protects people allowing them to return the phones to there original state but not to modify the programing? just wondering probably isnt, hope it was relevant

This thread has aually raised a few questions in my mind.
what is the legality of cooking roms. Obviously cooking an ubuntu mobile rom or an android rom is perfectly legal since that software is under GPL. But my tilt has windows mobile 6 on it with no current upgrade path to winmo 6.1, other than custom cooked roms.
Since at&t has not licsensed winmo6.1 for the tilt yet (or at least hasnt offered it to the public yet) are we basically pirating software it seams likes its the same thing as having a copy of winXP and upgrading with your friends vista disk and a crack.
As far as using SPL cell phone co's have to unlock your phone on request so i dont think theres any issue with that.
I am really looking forward to the new nvidia phones coming out, im hoping they have a big user base like HTC. I must say love my kaiser but its a bit slugish an unfunctional compared to the dell axim i30 i have from 03.

Yes i can imagine as the site has grown it can be harder to keep on top of everything flying around the servers.
Plus with files like you say companies can warn you it it breaches copyright.
I will add again here i am thankful to the mods and members on xda, a very top world website.

Noonski said:
If HTC Phones where perfect, well there would prolly be less of XDA .
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am sorry just thought i would point out the spelling mistake, I'll let you edit it.
I have quite good spelling and see some horrible spelling on some websites, not your little spelling mistake but some really bad stuff. I sometimes do the odd mistake more so when i am very tired.

I'm with boorishid on this one
If someone could make this a tab bit clearer to me I would be very appreciative.
Just don't understand where the line is drawn??

In all of the international conventions/treaties as well as demestic laws from various countries regarding the protection of copy rights and intellectual property rights, EXCEPTIONS are always outlined. And always For Educational & Research Puppose is one of the top exceptions.
As far as I understand, Xda-Devs site is mainly a platform for developers to exchange research information. But seems we are lack of DISCLAIMERS to make it clear on nessecary cases.
Certainly 'common sence' is important for every poster to decide what to do.

What I have found out during my stay here is, well basically everything is allowed except cracks / warez.
Anyway M$ knows about this site and has not complained, that means ....

Can chefs add warez / cracks in their ROMs ???
Some how I feel they can!
Check this:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=531181
Although I don't know whether SPB Mobile shell / coreplayer come as standard package with Hermes or not

Addicted2xda said:
Can chefs add warez / cracks in their ROMs ???
Some how I feel they can!
Check this:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=531181
Although I don't know whether SPB Mobile shell / coreplayer come as standard package with Hermes or not
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No,
I've Removed the links and sent a PM.
Dave

Gotta love Microsoft...BUT

I wouldn't say I love Microsoft, but they do have the market for computer software and I do have quite a bit of their hardware, the MS stearing wheel been a fine bit of kit.
I have used Windows operating systems since Windows 3.1 to the present XP (Vista any day now). I have been using a PocketPC for the past few years with software ranging from Windows Mobile 2003 to the 2005 version, all under licence from the vendor I bourght the phone from.
Whilst the pre packaged software on my PDA is all good and well I have had a much more productive and fun time using my device since I stumbled across XDA-developers.com website, usefull information, people who are in the same boat and development on the software to only increese the usabillity of it.
This is the reason I started this thread.
Everyone that own's a PocketPC/PDA has bourght it. This means that once the device has been bourght you have paid for the Microsoft licence of the installed software.
When you buy a copy of Windows for your home or business computer you have a few differnet ways you can install the software, there are lots of third party bits of software you can install, so you can customize the way your computer is setup.
Microsoft are gonna make xda-developers.com to take down the files that are posted on this site.
I believe that as we have all payed to have the software on our PDA's we have the right to have any version that we want, modified or not. Yes, we shouldn't have versions that haven't been "officially" realeased on our PDA's but even with those there are people who have got the ROM's and made them better.
Microsoft should be quite gratefull that there are people out there to make a bit of software they have developed even better, why should it be any skin of there noses for a bit of software they have allready been paid for!!!
Microsoft can't stop new ROM's been realesed on the internet, if Vista is on all the torrent sites there's no way they are gonna stop a new Windows Mobile ROM appearing.
To conclude...Microsoft should know a good thing when they see it. XDA-Developers.com is that!

Well laid out. I totally agree with you. What M$ doesn't understand is that more roms will start to fly around on un-monitored sites. These sites will lack the support provided at xda-developers and customer complains will sky rocket through the roofs.

Like jack bauer say... "Damn it M$", we need our own Chloe O'brian (a mean betatester)... YOU GUYS!
LONG LIFE XDA-DEVELOPERS!!!

You are right !
M$ have a basic problem in their buisness concept ... not letting people have the freedom that they need and want to upgrade and evolve their OS
And that's why (i believe) people are starting to switch to other OS like OSX or linux.
I am very much afraid that it will also start happening in our mobile decives with symbian and others ...
because although WM5 (and 6) tend to .... crash, hang, or just not work, in my opinion it is the most versitile OS there is .... plenty of programs for it ... and plenty of programmers making new stuff as they go, and that's without including ROM maker which are a whole highly respectable group on their own.
I believe that it is our decision to upgrade, as well as our legal right(for the OS' price is no doubt included in the device's retail price) BUT people must have no right to complain after screwing with their device or worse (bricking it).
And in that respect i agree with M$.
So i propose the middle ground, asking M$ if writing a diclaimer here on XDA that users must go through before downloading and/or upgrading their device will do, and hope that they accept.
if not ...
find a legal loophole, because I for one am not willing to give XDA up just yet !
sorry if i bored you guys, but that's just the way i feel about this whole thing.
UPGRADE ON !
heh.

I have never been one to defend Microsoft, but from reading their letter carefully, it would appear it has more to do with the mobile operators putting pressure on them. Two things I would like to say in response to this.
1) If the mobile operators and manufacturers would employ developers who were even half as quick and resourceful as the developers here, they might actually have sold me a phone that worked properly to start with, unlike my SPV M5000 which was crashing on a daily basis, even with their latest ROM, until I updated it with a ROM from this forum. Had I not been saved by this this amazing forum, I would have demanded a refund, Orange would have lost money and I would have moved to a different company.
2) People who update their phones with ROM images from this forum should know better than to seek support from their mobile operator after having updated their ROM. They should have known that they would not like this.
Now we all have to suffer.

They'll have to face't!
columbo said:
I have never been one to defend Microsoft, but from reading their letter carefully, it would appear it has more to do with the mobile operators putting pressure on them. Two things I would like to say in response to this.
1) If the mobile operators and manufacturers would employ developers who were even half as quick and resourceful as the developers here, they might actually have sold me a phone that worked properly to start with, unlike my SPV M5000 which was crashing on a daily basis, even with their latest ROM, until I updated it with a ROM from this forum. Had I not been saved by this this amazing forum, I would have demanded a refund, Orange would have lost money and I would have moved to a different company.
2) People who update their phones with ROM images from this forum should know better than to seek support from their mobile operator after having updated their ROM. They should have known that they would not like this.
Now we all have to suffer.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have never gone to my mobile operator nor the phone support service center! I have not a single doubt in my mind that I know better than the "technician" sitting behind his desk claiming to fix my PDA whenever it hicks up!
This forum and only THIS FORUM, helped 100K of people to fix their own PDAs and even created a wide knowledge to those beginners who knew nada about roms or tweaking pdas!
But sorry to say that OS developers have gone too far this time and as it was rightly said, the tighter and tougher they become the more roms ther will be out there even more than they can imagine, since it is a challenge they've started, they'll have to face't.

columbo said:
I have never been one to defend Microsoft, but from reading their letter carefully, it would appear it has more to do with the mobile operators putting pressure on them.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think that, in this case, M$ is hiding itself behind the mobile operators. Bit too easy, ain't it...

In the end
In the end it all comes down to this:
We ALL get F*CKED in the (*) by Bill Gates and his friends

bastiaanoskam said:
In the end it all comes down to this:
We ALL get F*CKED in the (*) by Bill Gates and his friends
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What an amazingly constructive comment you made there...... I would say that this is just a part of life and there is nothing we can do about it. To be honest we all knew this course of action was inevitable.
This action is corporate companies trying to protect there product - can you really blame them for that....... Money makes the world go round and all that...

columbo said:
1) If the mobile operators and manufacturers would employ developers who were even half as quick and resourceful as the developers here, they might actually have sold me a phone that worked properly to start with...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well why don't they employ US
I am unemployed atm...

Re: This Place Goes to Dogs Because of Microsoft

Re: This Place Goes to Dogs Because of Microsoft
Now no more cooking up Roms and OS's and no place to go.
I'm upset to see this.
There has got to be a way to carry on?
What were these guys afraid of? Oh if you want the new OS and it's capabilities you got to go to carrier and get ripped off!
I wonder who complained the most? I bet i-Mate was at the top of the list. HTC?
I want to run the newest OS without purchasing a new unit period and if I can't I will not be purchasing any more from the likes of Cingular, T-Mobile.
You know here in the good old USA you can't even get a decent phone from T-Mobile they are in the Stone Age. Cingular is a little better you can get a stripped down Tytn as the 8525 that of course is locked to their network and they almost always strong arm you into a 2 year contract! What are these guys Dictators?
You know why cant we develop our own like Sony's UX Micro series?
These thing would put these guys out of business. After all I always build my own PC's b uy the operating system. I can build these to suit me.
Well the End is near the Commies are taking over, lets hug a tree and sing some Kumbaiya.
Ok Ranted

amen brother
Me too! Tired of buying $650 phones with crummy ROMS and no support. It's absurd!! I left the board for a week and a half and came back today to upgrade to the Dopod ROM with GPS (I have the p3600) - whoops! - it's gone - Screwed!
Everyone can pat microsoft on the back for being so lenient for so long but I've been doing Windows since the first version and have watched them illegally put Netscape, Ecco Pro, Wordperfect (almost), Firefox (soon) and hundreds of other great software companies out of business through bullying and bribing - this makes me not give a flying you know what about respecting their rights. They even bullied the feds - more power there than the Vanderbilts and the Rockerfellers (sp?) ever had!!
I have spent a fortune on their products, and I have done almost everything totally legally (which is why I have spent a fortune). But they are not satisfied with that. They have to run all the experimenters and the innovators out of business, and when theirown products suck, they have to buy the competition out of business. I will buy and use the first good open source OS that comes along for these excellent PDA phones - I am so tired of throwing dollar after dollar on systems that don't work (don't get me started on Active sync, duplicates everywhere, increasingly limited abilities to sync, Outlook and the inability to have one PIM on more than one computer at home without 3rd party software at home, and so on).
It makes a good man want to cry. At least Apple is up front about it. And, altho there is no opportunity for innovation there, at least their products work. Microsoft is in business just to blow everybody else out of the water. Tiring to say the least. Deserving of a consumer revolt at best!
Yes they are within their legal rights. Legal rights these days are like political rights in the past MIGHT MAKES RIGHT. Thank you again, Bill Gates.

We're still cooking up ROMs. In fact I posted one just today. The location has simply changed. FTTB everything's on RapidShare. We no longer host this location however, so the care we took in ensuring that pre-production ROMs not yet sent to Operators were removed is now gone.
What has m$ really done here other than just make a lot of people really mad (the petition has around 6,000 signatures currently)? Oh, I know. They've hurt their sales.
... go figure...

as if MSFT cares much about sales they would only care if their $$$ go to competitors like Apple iPhone for example... then Bill would go bananas but a few billion less in sales that's peanuts for him ))
on another point, rapidshare is not searchable (for obvious reasons)... will then the sharing and testing be done through PM only???

I have been told (smile) that emule has a search function.

Yeah but really, would you install a rom that came from e-mule?

Exactly. Did anyone 'mirrored' the ftp before it was taken down?
I can't believe, BTW, that xdad being scared by M$FT -without any reason, let me add - did not give us some time to mirror it. This is clearly pathetic, I think.

there is a mirror!!,,, search this forum carefully for the word "gurus"

dim4x4 said:
there is a mirror!!,,, search this forum carefully for the word "gurus"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So are we not meant to tell anyone the web address?
:gulp:

Are the WM6 roms here pirated?

Knowing this site and seeing the rules as they are I know the site wouldn't allow pirated software on the site. You guys don't even allow talking about it.
Well, when I told a friend I got WM6 for my phone he is swearing up and down with me that it is pirated and that I am in Denial (which makes no sense). I honestly can't explain how it isn't illegal, so I figured I would let you guys tell me how to explain this.

You can't explain it because it is a form of piracy. Unless you put exactly the same version of software back on your phone with at most a few things removed, it's a pirated version. If you've put anything on it that isn't freely given out in the rom that you didn't have before than it's pirated.
This site doesn't condone warez or illegal distribution of applications.The difference is that in order to make use of these rom changes, you have to OWN a device purchased with the microsoft software to begin with.

So why would MS take the time to contact the site to remove some Roms and not all or these?
I would have also assumed pirated if it wasn't for the post to people asking for warez. If they allow one and not the other that isn't right, so I figured it was totally legal to have WM6. Maybe the same way I had Windows Longhorn (vista) back in the development days legally.

Our goal here is to make the software that you legally purchased with your $700 device actually work the way it was intended to work. We don't offer apps that aren't prepackaged with these devices. You purchased a WindowsMobile license when you purchased your device.
There's a complex relationship between m$, device manufacturers and Operators. Each makes changes to these devices. Consider XDA-Developers to be somewhere between the device manufacturer and the Operator level.

yeah, technically you paid for a microsoft license when you bought your phone. Still, copying these WM6 cooked ROMs ARE a form of piracy. But it does'nt really matter seeing as HTC is planning to Release a WM6 update anyway. we just got it a bit early.

Our phones came with WM5 not WM6
but.. HTC released WM6 for their devices but our phone carriers may never release them to us

Come on guys this ROMs are not Paireted as they are not sold off the shelf... this is not windos XP Pro or Vista... this is a per loaded software on the devices and most of the or at least HTC is giving free upgrade....
but the ROM upgrade VOID's your hardware Warranty... as its stated in your Warranty terms...

So basically the terms of use for mobile phones is not the same as desktop software because you have no choice but to purchase a legit license for WM when you buy the phone?

truffle1234 said:
Come on guys this ROMs are not Paireted as they are not sold off the shelf.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So then, a movie leaked on the Internet before it's actual release date is not pirated?

todd_jg said:
So then, a movie leaked on the Internet before it's actual release date is not pirated?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That is not the point. The line, though a thin one, seems to be over whether you would normally have to PAY for the software. Thus depriving someone/corporation of revenue it would normally receive.
WM6 will not be charged for. So within those parameters does not fall within the the strict term "Piracy".

That's pretty close Wam7. Operators and/or hardware developers pay licensing fees to m$ for every device they sell. That cost is supposedly subsidized in the price we pay. Therefore, as you say, revenues aren't decreased by our work here. With Warez, this isn't the case as the hacker deprives the author of revenue with every hacked version that gets used.
This is why we don't tolerate Warez here.

Mcrosoft Offering Windows Mobile 6 Free
In this article:
http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/...ws-mobile-6-upgrade-for-device-manufacturers/
It is apparent that Windows Mobile 6 is being offered as a free upgrade to device manufacturers. In reality, what we early adopters are doing is beta testing the OS prior to final release. Microsoft, with their droves of legal experts, may wish to twist this into some sort of piracy, ip, rights issue to save face or just to be a$$hole$, and carriers may wish to add and take away what they want as well (I believe it was Cingular that whined to M$ about XDA-Developers), but the REALITY is that nobody here is doing anything more than unauthorized beta testing of an OS that has been released FOR FREE to device manufacturers. It may be more of a gray area when it comes to the addon applications that sometimes come bundled with the cooked ROMS, or as separate addons (i.e. Cyberon Voice Command), but only if the device you purchased did not originally include the same software. I am NOT a lawyer, and I am sure a lawyer could argue against my point just as easily as they could argue that a child molester is a victim of society. Nonetheless, I do not feel like I am doing anything wrong, and, in fact, I felt very annoyed at Cingular when they refused to give me a refund for my 8525 after I decided it was unusable 45 days after getting one (30 days is the policy for returns). My 8525 sat in a drawer for months, until I decided to flash with a WM6 ROM from this site. Suddenly, it worked! No more freezing, no more bluetooth bullcrap, no more missed calls. I agree with sleuth 100% when he says that what we are trying to do is get our devices to work as they should (stable, fast, trouble free). Despite the constant whining that some of the geeks on this site continue doing about petty bullcrap, bless them for stepping up and delivering a working product to those of us that would otherwise have to sit and wait for a bloated crapware ROM from Cingular with that POS "Get Express Mail" and "Get Telenav" cooked into it, and bless the power users who truly beta test the product to help make a better ROM.

Firehawkns said:
Knowing this site and seeing the rules as they are I know the site wouldn't allow pirated software on the site. You guys don't even allow talking about it.
Well, when I told a friend I got WM6 for my phone he is swearing up and down with me that it is pirated and that I am in Denial (which makes no sense). I honestly can't explain how it isn't illegal, so I figured I would let you guys tell me how to explain this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Who cares, MS is not going out of business, nor will the price of XP/Vista or my next HTC phone go down if I paid for WM6. I dont see Bill Gates eating in a soup kitchen.....oh and the fact that WM6 will be given free as an upgrade can make all the others feel warm and not dirty about themselves.

You see though why it still is piracy, at least right now. For every device running this wm6 software microsoft should have received a payment. If for some reason cingular decides not to upgrade these afterall (I'm just using this as hypothetical) then microsoft is in fact loosing some money. WM6 is not a free upgrade, that misprint was shot down by several new articles after it came out. The reason this form of piracy is accepted is because the end user has no possible way to PAY for the software legally, you have zero options to legally aquire the newer OS. Thus your pirating it becomes a "gray" area of the law.
This is no different than the canadians stealing DTV's signal from the US. They could not legally aquire the signal, their payment would not be accepted, thus they turned to the only other way to get it. That's of course all changed recently.

wpbear said:
Who cares, MS is not going out of business, nor will the price of XP/Vista or my next HTC phone go down if I paid for WM6. I dont see Bill Gates eating in a soup kitchen.....oh and the fact that WM6 will be given free as an upgrade can make all the others feel warm and not dirty about themselves.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh trust me I don't care. I have 3 pirated XP pro machines running at my house. We just got in a discussion about it so I wanted to see what the answer was. It all started because of all the hell he gives me for my software habbits.

Hey, where is the EULA that I supposedly agreed to? I don't see one anywhere.

and since when do we have pirated beta software? Man, we're been risking our precious device to beta test WM6 for them.

Hmmm.... Well, I think that Microsoft may disagree with that.
http://www.brighthand.com/default.asp?newsID=12837
Similarly, other boards have taken a different view.
http://www.phonenews.com/blog/content/view/133/11/
upgrade the Cingular 8125 from Windows Mobile 5 to Windows Mobile 6. That would be a product upgrade and not a product update, and would require a new license from Microsoft
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Also, the argument could be well made that putting WM6 on a device for which it was not intended DECREASES the sales of the devices it is supposed to go on - limiting upgrades. This would most definitely cut revenue - for the device manufacturers, M$ and the carriers who leverage the upgrades for contract extensions.
That said, I agree that it is a very fine line and that both sides of the argument can be made. However, in a courtroom fight, my money is on M$.

Back in the day when direct tv hacking was very easy the canadian government said this.
If you can't buy it, its not stealing.
Same thing applies here in my opinion based on software.
going back to direct tv hacking they also said if it falls in your backyard then its owned by you. What did direct tv do? They made it harder to decrypt their signals. Solved their piracy problem, even if it was legal in some countries.

I like this thread - I hope people don't mind this philosophical discussion and that they take it as a fun mental exercise, not an argument.
exstatica said:
canadian government said this.
If you can't buy it, its not stealing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So, then you would not mind if I came to your house and took your refrigerator, which is not currently for sale? Not sure about that one - seems overly simplistic. The fact that it is not currently "on the market" is not the same as saying that it has no monetary value.
they also said if it falls in your backyard then its owned by you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think that this argument would apply here. Surely the signals from DirecTV were being blasted down into your yard by a satellite. I think they Internet is quite different. Hmmm.... interesting though.

[Q] Tethering

I rang t-mob Uk on saturday to see if tethering on their omnia 7 was permitted or not.
Intially the woman started to read the specs of the wrong phone. She then said that tethering via bluetooth and usb works.
Not convinced, I did the live chat via the t-mob site. This time I was told that tethering via Bt and usb is fine BUT additionally the wm6.5 type wifi routing works. I find the later hard to believe and am unsure as validity of the former advice.
Can any one confirm?
Thanks

There is no tethering on wp7 as of yet

There is no tethering option on wp7 yet.

Blimey!!!
Thanks for clarifying this.
The pre-release info was conflicting with some people saying that it was possible but at the discretion of the carrier.
So if I go for wp7 I will then need to cough up extra for a separate data plan for my laptop.
Nice one M$- I have been out of contract since June and was happy to wait for wp7 and now it seems that I can't even do the basics that I have been able to do for the last 10 years.
The Applefication of WM is so disappointing.
I guess I have the option of jumping to the good ship android or buying an old HD2 until M$ add the things that grown ups need or until someone here manages to "jail brake" wp7
Does anyone know when tethering might be added?
Thanks

This is the very first release of an entirely new operating system so people need to be a little patient. Tethering support is coming but we don't know when yet. If you absolutely have to have tethering right now then go with another OS.

Ren13B said:
This is the very first release of an entirely new operating system so people need to be a little patient. Tethering support is coming but we don't know when yet. If you absolutely have to have tethering right now then go with another OS.
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This isn't a slight on you but the "this is new so expect problems" mantra is crap.
Microsoft have been making smart phones for years, they are not new at this game. There is absolutely no excuse for not being able to provide things that exist in their older platforms. Did the bloke that developed cut&paste in the old winCE die and take his secret to the grave?
Why should we be patient? we are expected to cough up £500 for a phone which may or may not be more retarded than previous incarnations. Microsoft know what they can and cannot do, why not publish a road map?
Hell, it's not like the harware is even new technology!!!

imaginarynumber said:
This isn't a slight on you but the "this is new so expect problems" mantra is crap.
Microsoft have been making smart phones for years, they are not new at this game. There is absolutely no excuse for not being able to provide things that exist in their older platforms. Did the bloke that developed cut&paste in the old winCE die and take his secret to the grave?
Why should we be patient? we are expected to cough up £500 for a phone which may or may not be more retarded than previous incarnations. Microsoft know what they can and cannot do, why not publish a road map?
Hell, it's not like the harware is even new technology!!!
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Click to collapse
The difference between WP7 and previous Windows Mobile OS versions is why many "less used" features are not yet complete. With WP7, Microsoft actually wants the experience to be fluid and consistent. This means they have to completely rethink and rewrite all the code. There are deadlines, like any business, and certain things had to be deferred to the next update. This is the way things work with software development. iOS and Android had the same issues with their initial releases.
Good things come to those who wait. Expecting everything in hurry will typically leave you with a bunch of poorly written garbage software. Microsoft has already spoken to both copy/paste and tethering. They will add these features and more. If these features are that important to anyone, they should wait for them to be implemented before buying a WP7 device. Otherwise, there are other choices.

imaginarynumber said:
This isn't a slight on you but the "this is new so expect problems" mantra is crap.
Microsoft have been making smart phones for years, they are not new at this game. There is absolutely no excuse for not being able to provide things that exist in their older platforms. Did the bloke that developed cut&paste in the old winCE die and take his secret to the grave?
Why should we be patient? we are expected to cough up £500 for a phone which may or may not be more retarded than previous incarnations. Microsoft know what they can and cannot do, why not publish a road map?
Hell, it's not like the harware is even new technology!!!
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Click to collapse
LOL... so true... there is no excuse really

I am not sold.
I think that many of the omissions are not down to the fact that the MS techies were not bright enough but moreover that they are result of microsoft calculating that customers or carriers did not want certain features.
If your argument held true then wm6.5 would have been nearing perfection and there would be no need for wp7.
Perhaps you are confusing patience with gullibility.
BTW with regard to
"There are deadlines, like any business, and certain things had to be deferred to the next update. This is the way things work with software development"
So what are alpha and beta testing for? Products should work when they get to the market place, not half a year later.

imaginarynumber said:
I am not sold.
I think that many of the omissions are not down to the fact that the MS techies were not bright enough but moreover that they are result of microsoft calculating that customers or carriers did not want certain features.
If your argument held true then wm6.5 would have been nearing perfection and there would be no need for wp7.
Perhaps you are confusing patience with gullibility.
BTW with regard to
"There are deadlines, like any business, and certain things had to be deferred to the next update. This is the way things work with software development"
So what are alpha and beta testing for? Products should work when they get to the market place, not half a year later.
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Click to collapse
You are free to believe whatever you wish. I am not selling you anything. Just giving an educated response.
Nobody is forcing you to buy a WP7 device. I like the way you ignore that ALL the advertised features of WP7 are fully functional. That kind of negates your statement about "products should work when the het to the market place." This has nothing to do with alpha or beta testing. These features are already at that stage of development.
Sent from my X10a using XDA App

imaginarynumber said:
I am not sold.
I think that many of the omissions are not down to the fact that the MS techies were not bright enough but moreover that they are result of microsoft calculating that customers or carriers did not want certain features.
If your argument held true then wm6.5 would have been nearing perfection and there would be no need for wp7.
Perhaps you are confusing patience with gullibility.
BTW with regard to
"There are deadlines, like any business, and certain things had to be deferred to the next update. This is the way things work with software development"
So what are alpha and beta testing for? Products should work when they get to the market place, not half a year later.
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Click to collapse
I think it's about both that and the money. For some reason *cough cough RIAA* Microsoft want users to have to re-purchase whatever files they hope to use on the device.

naplesbill said:
You are free to believe whatever you wish. I am not selling you anything. Just giving an educated response.
Nobody is forcing you to buy a WP7 device. I like the way you ignore that ALL the advertised features of WP7 are fully functional. That kind of negates your statement about "products should work when the het to the market place." This has nothing to do with alpha or beta testing. These features are already at that stage of development.
Sent from my X10a using XDA App
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Click to collapse
Errr....... thanks for sharing the benefit of your education...
Funnily enough I too had an education. This enables me to read posts by Brandon Watson (Director for Windows Phone 7). The same man that said that WP7 would support tethering but at the discretion of the carrier.
Regrettably my education did not include mind reading and thus I did not realise that his statement meant "WP does not support tethering but it may or may not at some point in the near or distant future"
And to which of the advertised features are you referring? How do you know that they all work perfectly? Would the advertised claim that you can "manage.. your email with ease" suffice? Well seemingly not unless you think that having to hard reset your phone in order to delete your windows live account post a typo error is perfection. Or what about the xbox live extras that have been crashing and now removed from the market place?
As consumers we expect products to improve throughout their life cycles. We want features to become better and not just be omitted. It beggars belief that you think that removing givens such as changing ringtones or tetherings is acceptable.
I agree that nobody is forcing me to buy a WP, in the same way that no recalled toyota owner was forced to by a toyota but I guess that toyota never listed non-sticking brakes as advertised features.
Just out of interest- at what point is one allowed to complain? If i wait until I purchase something do I have even less right given that i knew that it was not perfect at the point of purchase?

I love lamp.

kdj67f said:
I love lamp.
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????????????????
Beyond my ken, sorry...

I do get your frustration and went through the same feelings.
My Tilt 2 (Rhodium) can wifi tether right now and it works great, why not the next 'evolution'?
I think the biggest reason I found it from reading forums and listening to other users is this:
We (those of us who use XDA and like to push our tech to do our bidding) want and use features such as tethering. What portion of the demographic is MS seeking here with WP7, surely a much larger base then those who live / breathe XDA yes?
There aren't thousands, heck even hundreds, of people with torches and pitchforks screaming for tethering. We on these and other forums are, but that is only a small representation of the customer base.
Simple point.. it isn't a primary feature to include in V 1.0 launch, I really hope they add it, but there are many other features that come before tethering. Technically you shoud be paying for tethering anyway, in addition to your wireless data plan.
From what I have read, you are mad that you would have to pay what they ask instead of circumventing that, as you have been (me too!) 8)

imaginarynumber said:
Errr....... thanks for sharing the benefit of your education...
Funnily enough I too had an education. This enables me to read posts by Brandon Watson (Director for Windows Phone 7). The same man that said that WP7 would support tethering but at the discretion of the carrier.
Regrettably my education did not include mind reading and thus I did not realise that his statement meant "WP does not support tethering but it may or may not at some point in the near or distant future"
And to which of the advertised features are you referring? How do you know that they all work perfectly? Would the advertised claim that you can "manage.. your email with ease" suffice? Well seemingly not unless you think that having to hard reset your phone in order to delete your windows live account post a typo error is perfection. Or what about the xbox live extras that have been crashing and now removed from the market place?
As consumers we expect products to improve throughout their life cycles. We want features to become better and not just be omitted. It beggars belief that you think that removing givens such as changing ringtones or tetherings is acceptable.
I agree that nobody is forcing me to buy a WP, in the same way that no recalled toyota owner was forced to by a toyota but I guess that toyota never listed non-sticking brakes as advertised features.
Just out of interest- at what point is one allowed to complain? If i wait until I purchase something do I have even less right given that i knew that it was not perfect at the point of purchase?
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Click to collapse
Resorting to sarcasm in response to a discussion is pointless. If you don't accept the input of others as valid, there is nothing left to say.
Sent from my X10a using XDA App

naplesbill said:
Resorting to sarcasm in response to a discussion is pointless. If you don't accept the input of others as valid, there is nothing left to say.
Sent from my X10a using XDA App
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Click to collapse
The sarcasm was a response to your condescending tone. If you want to take the holier than thou higher moral ground then go for it.
As a long standing WinCE customer I have a right to vent my frustrations and disappointments.
By the same token i don't own an iphone but I retain the right to b!tch about the fact that their greed has (indirectly) fugged up my preferred phone OS.

brytonic said:
I do get your frustration and went through the same feelings.
My Tilt 2 (Rhodium) can wifi tether right now and it works great, why not the next 'evolution'?
I think the biggest reason I found it from reading forums and listening to other users is this:
We (those of us who use XDA and like to push our tech to do our bidding) want and use features such as tethering. What portion of the demographic is MS seeking here with WP7, surely a much larger base then those who live / breathe XDA yes?
There aren't thousands, heck even hundreds, of people with torches and pitchforks screaming for tethering. We on these and other forums are, but that is only a small representation of the customer base.
Simple point.. it isn't a primary feature to include in V 1.0 launch, I really hope they add it, but there are many other features that come before tethering. Technically you shoud be paying for tethering anyway, in addition to your wireless data plan.
From what I have read, you are mad that you would have to pay what they ask instead of circumventing that, as you have been (me too!) 8)
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Click to collapse
Hi there Brytonic
here in the Uk t-mobile are more upfront about internet charges and tethering (branded as web'n'walk). My curent contract includes free tethering whereas my previous one had a small premium for the right to tether (which I was happy to pay).
The cost of internet access only without voice is significantly higher than a voice account with web'nwalk bolted on. So if i were to buy a sim free WP the web'n'walk part of my bill would remain unchanged but I would additionally need to pay for web'n'walk for my pc
I agree that we here are only a fraction of the intended market place but it gals me that Microsoft leaked that tethering would be supported.
Am I really being unrealistic to expect a £500 phone to be able to do what my Ericsson T39 could do back in 2001 (ie work as a bluetooth modem)?
If it were the case that we had to wait for the 3g over wifi routing then I would have no problem as that is an enhancement of what I consider to be a rudimentary function.

kdj67f said:
I love lamp.
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LOL!!! Don't start!! Did "I love lamp" on Facebook and it got way into territory reserved for R18
Actually - maybe that is what this thread needs lol