Knowing this site and seeing the rules as they are I know the site wouldn't allow pirated software on the site. You guys don't even allow talking about it.
Well, when I told a friend I got WM6 for my phone he is swearing up and down with me that it is pirated and that I am in Denial (which makes no sense). I honestly can't explain how it isn't illegal, so I figured I would let you guys tell me how to explain this.
You can't explain it because it is a form of piracy. Unless you put exactly the same version of software back on your phone with at most a few things removed, it's a pirated version. If you've put anything on it that isn't freely given out in the rom that you didn't have before than it's pirated.
This site doesn't condone warez or illegal distribution of applications.The difference is that in order to make use of these rom changes, you have to OWN a device purchased with the microsoft software to begin with.
So why would MS take the time to contact the site to remove some Roms and not all or these?
I would have also assumed pirated if it wasn't for the post to people asking for warez. If they allow one and not the other that isn't right, so I figured it was totally legal to have WM6. Maybe the same way I had Windows Longhorn (vista) back in the development days legally.
Our goal here is to make the software that you legally purchased with your $700 device actually work the way it was intended to work. We don't offer apps that aren't prepackaged with these devices. You purchased a WindowsMobile license when you purchased your device.
There's a complex relationship between m$, device manufacturers and Operators. Each makes changes to these devices. Consider XDA-Developers to be somewhere between the device manufacturer and the Operator level.
yeah, technically you paid for a microsoft license when you bought your phone. Still, copying these WM6 cooked ROMs ARE a form of piracy. But it does'nt really matter seeing as HTC is planning to Release a WM6 update anyway. we just got it a bit early.
Our phones came with WM5 not WM6
but.. HTC released WM6 for their devices but our phone carriers may never release them to us
Come on guys this ROMs are not Paireted as they are not sold off the shelf... this is not windos XP Pro or Vista... this is a per loaded software on the devices and most of the or at least HTC is giving free upgrade....
but the ROM upgrade VOID's your hardware Warranty... as its stated in your Warranty terms...
So basically the terms of use for mobile phones is not the same as desktop software because you have no choice but to purchase a legit license for WM when you buy the phone?
truffle1234 said:
Come on guys this ROMs are not Paireted as they are not sold off the shelf.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So then, a movie leaked on the Internet before it's actual release date is not pirated?
todd_jg said:
So then, a movie leaked on the Internet before it's actual release date is not pirated?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That is not the point. The line, though a thin one, seems to be over whether you would normally have to PAY for the software. Thus depriving someone/corporation of revenue it would normally receive.
WM6 will not be charged for. So within those parameters does not fall within the the strict term "Piracy".
That's pretty close Wam7. Operators and/or hardware developers pay licensing fees to m$ for every device they sell. That cost is supposedly subsidized in the price we pay. Therefore, as you say, revenues aren't decreased by our work here. With Warez, this isn't the case as the hacker deprives the author of revenue with every hacked version that gets used.
This is why we don't tolerate Warez here.
Mcrosoft Offering Windows Mobile 6 Free
In this article:
http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/...ws-mobile-6-upgrade-for-device-manufacturers/
It is apparent that Windows Mobile 6 is being offered as a free upgrade to device manufacturers. In reality, what we early adopters are doing is beta testing the OS prior to final release. Microsoft, with their droves of legal experts, may wish to twist this into some sort of piracy, ip, rights issue to save face or just to be a$$hole$, and carriers may wish to add and take away what they want as well (I believe it was Cingular that whined to M$ about XDA-Developers), but the REALITY is that nobody here is doing anything more than unauthorized beta testing of an OS that has been released FOR FREE to device manufacturers. It may be more of a gray area when it comes to the addon applications that sometimes come bundled with the cooked ROMS, or as separate addons (i.e. Cyberon Voice Command), but only if the device you purchased did not originally include the same software. I am NOT a lawyer, and I am sure a lawyer could argue against my point just as easily as they could argue that a child molester is a victim of society. Nonetheless, I do not feel like I am doing anything wrong, and, in fact, I felt very annoyed at Cingular when they refused to give me a refund for my 8525 after I decided it was unusable 45 days after getting one (30 days is the policy for returns). My 8525 sat in a drawer for months, until I decided to flash with a WM6 ROM from this site. Suddenly, it worked! No more freezing, no more bluetooth bullcrap, no more missed calls. I agree with sleuth 100% when he says that what we are trying to do is get our devices to work as they should (stable, fast, trouble free). Despite the constant whining that some of the geeks on this site continue doing about petty bullcrap, bless them for stepping up and delivering a working product to those of us that would otherwise have to sit and wait for a bloated crapware ROM from Cingular with that POS "Get Express Mail" and "Get Telenav" cooked into it, and bless the power users who truly beta test the product to help make a better ROM.
Firehawkns said:
Knowing this site and seeing the rules as they are I know the site wouldn't allow pirated software on the site. You guys don't even allow talking about it.
Well, when I told a friend I got WM6 for my phone he is swearing up and down with me that it is pirated and that I am in Denial (which makes no sense). I honestly can't explain how it isn't illegal, so I figured I would let you guys tell me how to explain this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Who cares, MS is not going out of business, nor will the price of XP/Vista or my next HTC phone go down if I paid for WM6. I dont see Bill Gates eating in a soup kitchen.....oh and the fact that WM6 will be given free as an upgrade can make all the others feel warm and not dirty about themselves.
You see though why it still is piracy, at least right now. For every device running this wm6 software microsoft should have received a payment. If for some reason cingular decides not to upgrade these afterall (I'm just using this as hypothetical) then microsoft is in fact loosing some money. WM6 is not a free upgrade, that misprint was shot down by several new articles after it came out. The reason this form of piracy is accepted is because the end user has no possible way to PAY for the software legally, you have zero options to legally aquire the newer OS. Thus your pirating it becomes a "gray" area of the law.
This is no different than the canadians stealing DTV's signal from the US. They could not legally aquire the signal, their payment would not be accepted, thus they turned to the only other way to get it. That's of course all changed recently.
wpbear said:
Who cares, MS is not going out of business, nor will the price of XP/Vista or my next HTC phone go down if I paid for WM6. I dont see Bill Gates eating in a soup kitchen.....oh and the fact that WM6 will be given free as an upgrade can make all the others feel warm and not dirty about themselves.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh trust me I don't care. I have 3 pirated XP pro machines running at my house. We just got in a discussion about it so I wanted to see what the answer was. It all started because of all the hell he gives me for my software habbits.
Hey, where is the EULA that I supposedly agreed to? I don't see one anywhere.
and since when do we have pirated beta software? Man, we're been risking our precious device to beta test WM6 for them.
Hmmm.... Well, I think that Microsoft may disagree with that.
http://www.brighthand.com/default.asp?newsID=12837
Similarly, other boards have taken a different view.
http://www.phonenews.com/blog/content/view/133/11/
upgrade the Cingular 8125 from Windows Mobile 5 to Windows Mobile 6. That would be a product upgrade and not a product update, and would require a new license from Microsoft
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Also, the argument could be well made that putting WM6 on a device for which it was not intended DECREASES the sales of the devices it is supposed to go on - limiting upgrades. This would most definitely cut revenue - for the device manufacturers, M$ and the carriers who leverage the upgrades for contract extensions.
That said, I agree that it is a very fine line and that both sides of the argument can be made. However, in a courtroom fight, my money is on M$.
Back in the day when direct tv hacking was very easy the canadian government said this.
If you can't buy it, its not stealing.
Same thing applies here in my opinion based on software.
going back to direct tv hacking they also said if it falls in your backyard then its owned by you. What did direct tv do? They made it harder to decrypt their signals. Solved their piracy problem, even if it was legal in some countries.
I like this thread - I hope people don't mind this philosophical discussion and that they take it as a fun mental exercise, not an argument.
exstatica said:
canadian government said this.
If you can't buy it, its not stealing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So, then you would not mind if I came to your house and took your refrigerator, which is not currently for sale? Not sure about that one - seems overly simplistic. The fact that it is not currently "on the market" is not the same as saying that it has no monetary value.
they also said if it falls in your backyard then its owned by you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think that this argument would apply here. Surely the signals from DirecTV were being blasted down into your yard by a satellite. I think they Internet is quite different. Hmmm.... interesting though.
Related
I wouldn't say I love Microsoft, but they do have the market for computer software and I do have quite a bit of their hardware, the MS stearing wheel been a fine bit of kit.
I have used Windows operating systems since Windows 3.1 to the present XP (Vista any day now). I have been using a PocketPC for the past few years with software ranging from Windows Mobile 2003 to the 2005 version, all under licence from the vendor I bourght the phone from.
Whilst the pre packaged software on my PDA is all good and well I have had a much more productive and fun time using my device since I stumbled across XDA-developers.com website, usefull information, people who are in the same boat and development on the software to only increese the usabillity of it.
This is the reason I started this thread.
Everyone that own's a PocketPC/PDA has bourght it. This means that once the device has been bourght you have paid for the Microsoft licence of the installed software.
When you buy a copy of Windows for your home or business computer you have a few differnet ways you can install the software, there are lots of third party bits of software you can install, so you can customize the way your computer is setup.
Microsoft are gonna make xda-developers.com to take down the files that are posted on this site.
I believe that as we have all payed to have the software on our PDA's we have the right to have any version that we want, modified or not. Yes, we shouldn't have versions that haven't been "officially" realeased on our PDA's but even with those there are people who have got the ROM's and made them better.
Microsoft should be quite gratefull that there are people out there to make a bit of software they have developed even better, why should it be any skin of there noses for a bit of software they have allready been paid for!!!
Microsoft can't stop new ROM's been realesed on the internet, if Vista is on all the torrent sites there's no way they are gonna stop a new Windows Mobile ROM appearing.
To conclude...Microsoft should know a good thing when they see it. XDA-Developers.com is that!
Well laid out. I totally agree with you. What M$ doesn't understand is that more roms will start to fly around on un-monitored sites. These sites will lack the support provided at xda-developers and customer complains will sky rocket through the roofs.
Like jack bauer say... "Damn it M$", we need our own Chloe O'brian (a mean betatester)... YOU GUYS!
LONG LIFE XDA-DEVELOPERS!!!
You are right !
M$ have a basic problem in their buisness concept ... not letting people have the freedom that they need and want to upgrade and evolve their OS
And that's why (i believe) people are starting to switch to other OS like OSX or linux.
I am very much afraid that it will also start happening in our mobile decives with symbian and others ...
because although WM5 (and 6) tend to .... crash, hang, or just not work, in my opinion it is the most versitile OS there is .... plenty of programs for it ... and plenty of programmers making new stuff as they go, and that's without including ROM maker which are a whole highly respectable group on their own.
I believe that it is our decision to upgrade, as well as our legal right(for the OS' price is no doubt included in the device's retail price) BUT people must have no right to complain after screwing with their device or worse (bricking it).
And in that respect i agree with M$.
So i propose the middle ground, asking M$ if writing a diclaimer here on XDA that users must go through before downloading and/or upgrading their device will do, and hope that they accept.
if not ...
find a legal loophole, because I for one am not willing to give XDA up just yet !
sorry if i bored you guys, but that's just the way i feel about this whole thing.
UPGRADE ON !
heh.
I have never been one to defend Microsoft, but from reading their letter carefully, it would appear it has more to do with the mobile operators putting pressure on them. Two things I would like to say in response to this.
1) If the mobile operators and manufacturers would employ developers who were even half as quick and resourceful as the developers here, they might actually have sold me a phone that worked properly to start with, unlike my SPV M5000 which was crashing on a daily basis, even with their latest ROM, until I updated it with a ROM from this forum. Had I not been saved by this this amazing forum, I would have demanded a refund, Orange would have lost money and I would have moved to a different company.
2) People who update their phones with ROM images from this forum should know better than to seek support from their mobile operator after having updated their ROM. They should have known that they would not like this.
Now we all have to suffer.
They'll have to face't!
columbo said:
I have never been one to defend Microsoft, but from reading their letter carefully, it would appear it has more to do with the mobile operators putting pressure on them. Two things I would like to say in response to this.
1) If the mobile operators and manufacturers would employ developers who were even half as quick and resourceful as the developers here, they might actually have sold me a phone that worked properly to start with, unlike my SPV M5000 which was crashing on a daily basis, even with their latest ROM, until I updated it with a ROM from this forum. Had I not been saved by this this amazing forum, I would have demanded a refund, Orange would have lost money and I would have moved to a different company.
2) People who update their phones with ROM images from this forum should know better than to seek support from their mobile operator after having updated their ROM. They should have known that they would not like this.
Now we all have to suffer.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have never gone to my mobile operator nor the phone support service center! I have not a single doubt in my mind that I know better than the "technician" sitting behind his desk claiming to fix my PDA whenever it hicks up!
This forum and only THIS FORUM, helped 100K of people to fix their own PDAs and even created a wide knowledge to those beginners who knew nada about roms or tweaking pdas!
But sorry to say that OS developers have gone too far this time and as it was rightly said, the tighter and tougher they become the more roms ther will be out there even more than they can imagine, since it is a challenge they've started, they'll have to face't.
columbo said:
I have never been one to defend Microsoft, but from reading their letter carefully, it would appear it has more to do with the mobile operators putting pressure on them.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think that, in this case, M$ is hiding itself behind the mobile operators. Bit too easy, ain't it...
In the end
In the end it all comes down to this:
We ALL get F*CKED in the (*) by Bill Gates and his friends
bastiaanoskam said:
In the end it all comes down to this:
We ALL get F*CKED in the (*) by Bill Gates and his friends
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What an amazingly constructive comment you made there...... I would say that this is just a part of life and there is nothing we can do about it. To be honest we all knew this course of action was inevitable.
This action is corporate companies trying to protect there product - can you really blame them for that....... Money makes the world go round and all that...
columbo said:
1) If the mobile operators and manufacturers would employ developers who were even half as quick and resourceful as the developers here, they might actually have sold me a phone that worked properly to start with...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well why don't they employ US
I am unemployed atm...
I had been used to then making roms for my Windows Mobile phone to download the language packs for the rom. But found that a socalled MS Internet Investigator had threatend the poster of these packages to remove them.
I wonder do you thinks that Microsoft will kill this site one day?
Well, certainly, the site will live as there is a lot of free (copyrighted ) software here, developed by XDA members. It is not only about WM6.5.
As for it, you still have China . ROMBeta for example. Or probably the takedown was a hoax.
IMHO MS just used us . They read the thread to get to know about bugs of their recent builds. All we were their free testers. And now, as WM6.5 is officially out, it is a copyrighted product, and we don't have permission to do smth unless we buy it.
I do not like when I am used in such a rude manner, so I will continue using my Diamond, and when it breaks, make sure to buy an Android phone from HTC .
Of course all these words are rubbish, if it was a hoax and we will continue experiencing WM6.5 .
Sensitive material: the xda-developers point of view.
Quote taken from here:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=1104604&postcount=1
"However with increased popularity comes an increased amount of legal complaints when sensitive material is found on our servers. Which is the reason why we have been more careful lately. Recently some sensitive material has shown up on the servers and we received legal complaints from companies who have the copyrights for this material, although we all feel this is very interesting and valuable material we cannot risk the future of xda-developers by ignoring the legal requests we receive, therefore this material has been taken offline."
yeah, they care more about keeping their cashcrop site up than the actual users. there aint no reason they couldnt rapidshare them files and post the new links in the thread, see the entire blueangel/wallaby sections. its all ftp links that are dead.
i'm sure i'll catch heat for my pro-user point of view here, but the fact remains they make more than enough money on this site to buy a decent server that doesnt take 30seconds to load, and maybe not removing the only link to a file leaving people completely SOL.
ms won't do anything to xda. xda sells more WM phones than ms could ever do alone, i know this because its 90% of the reason why i own as many HTCs as i do.
i love xda, but the management irks me. and the disorganization of it.
Not this garbage again!!
Are we sure that this "internet investigator" is real now? The last time it was some punk saying that they represented M$ and because of him, a bunch of roms ended up being taken down (even if they were not hosted in the xda servers.
I am so tired of this crap it isn't even funny...
@OneSman,
M$ isn't really using you since they are not offering you anything for free. You just happen to see it and use it. If you happen to report bugs, it is for the Chefs and not for M$ (however, they get to read your comments/reports as well). Don't expect any developer to give you any freebies simply because you are beta testing something. I still have to see the dev who does that.
@cerjam,
The management of XDA irks you? Why? If you are sent a letter from a company that has enough lawyers to sue you till the middle of next week, you will take corrective action. End of story... I think XDA's management is superb considering the amount of flow of information and users in this site.
Please lets not make another epic thread(s) for this "investigator" until we know it is a real M$ as$h0l3.
i own a few shady sites. i don't bend over for dmca or supposed emails from maybe some idiot from some company.
there is no reason they have to piss on the userbase like they do.
sure, i can see a problem hosting the **** in the xda-dev ftp. but it is irresponsible to the community to not have backups and to not make the files obtainable elsewhere.
point is they put ms and other pricks over their users. the people who make them money, who keep their site alive. there is no legal reason for them to bend over and just go OK /DELETE. specially without warning.
cerjam said:
i own a few shady sites. i don't bend over for dmca or supposed emails from maybe some idiot from some company.
there is no reason they have to piss on the userbase like they do.
sure, i can see a problem hosting the **** in the xda-dev ftp. but it is irresponsible to the community to not have backups and to not make the files obtainable elsewhere.
point is they put ms and other pricks over their users. the people who make them money, who keep their site alive. there is no legal reason for them to bend over and just go OK /DELETE. specially without warning.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Don't get me wrong, I hate them as much as I can (and then some), but the site admins have to play it safe... because they have such a large user base, they have to ensure that the site will keep on going and that it won't be taken down. I do agree about the back ups though...
playing it safe is fine. im just pissed off to no goddamn end, i buy any phone older than 2years? WELP SORRY MAN OUT OF LUCK BECAUSE MS EMAILED US =D
which is very very irksome, you have a blueangel you should understand lmfao
cerjam said:
yeah, they care more about keeping their cashcrop site up than the actual users. there aint no reason they couldnt rapidshare them files and post the new links in the thread, see the entire blueangel/wallaby sections. its all ftp links that are dead.
i'm sure i'll catch heat for my pro-user point of view here, but the fact remains they make more than enough money on this site to buy a decent server that doesnt take 30seconds to load, and maybe not removing the only link to a file leaving people completely SOL.
ms won't do anything to xda. xda sells more WM phones than ms could ever do alone, i know this because its 90% of the reason why i own as many HTCs as i do.
i love xda, but the management irks me. and the disorganization of it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, I suppose they could use RapidShare or something, but if they upload all their files all at once to RapidShare, that could lead a suspicious trail, and what are they gonna say? "MS E-mailed us, so we put all of our illegal files on RapidShare." Lighten up a bit. It's FAR better to have a website with all the tools to learn how to mod your own device and to try and find the files yourself (which I'm sure are out there), than to have the files for at most a few months or a year or so and then have this site, probably the best WM site in existence, completely go under. Besides, if people have to work to find the files, it'll make the end product feel that much nicer.
I don't know American Law (XDA is an American Site?)
But lets say it was in Denmark. But anyway. Here Microsoft would have to go to court and get a courtorder to make a website remove links that MS or any other feelt threatened their business.
Is the law different in the US?
/Fred
p.s. How does one become a payed Internet Investigator? I would love to have such a job insteed my current one
Euroman28 said:
I don't know American Law (XDA is an American Site?)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks no!
I think XDA is Neederlands
Microsoft kills Windows Mobile ?
It is possible that Windows Mobile 6.5 is the last and final Windows Mobile release from Microsoft.
In what you base for saying that?
WM7.................
sleurhut said:
It is possible that Windows Mobile 6.5 is the last and final Windows Mobile release from Microsoft.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, Many rumors are milling around for a WM7 and then WM7.1, I don't know the authenticity of this rumors, but couple of years back I heard a rumor that WM 6.5 is coming out.... so let's hope we get more upgrades, unless MS decided not to cash on WM mobiles. Will they?!
Shiv
sleurhut said:
It is possible that Windows Mobile 6.5 is the last and final Windows Mobile release from Microsoft.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Im pretty sure Steve Ballmer talked about windows mobile 7 in an interview so its kinda official just no time for release or anything yet
kaptix said:
Im pretty sure Steve Ballmer talked about windows mobile 7 in an interview so its kinda official just no time for release or anything yet
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There he is.
..i closed the tab without posting. damnit.
a) wm7s been confirmed. it's going to be ms's version of the iphones OS, the last decent WM was 5 before ms went all change-happy.
and b) ms couldnt prove anything. xda couldve setup a good data-hosting service that couldnt be traced. i imagine they make enough money off this site that they could do alot of things to make this site better.
and on that note, does anyone have any idea as to why whoever owns xda is too damn cheap to buy a decent server for xda. it's constantly slow and dead, i know damnwell they make massive money off donations and adcash. a decent server is maybe 1k a month, you're telling me theseguys are so broke they cant even put alittle of the community cash back into it?
sleurhut said:
It is possible that Windows Mobile 6.5 is the last and final Windows Mobile release from Microsoft.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Microsoft confirms multi-touch, designates WM7 to high-end, while keeping WM 6.5 for mass market
http://www.unwiredview.com/2009/08/...igh-end-while-keeping-wm-6-5-for-mass-market/
cerjam said:
i imagine they make enough money off this site that they could do alot of things to make this site better.
and on that note, does anyone have any idea as to why whoever owns xda is too damn cheap to buy a decent server for xda. it's constantly slow and dead, i know damnwell they make massive money off donations and adcash. a decent server is maybe 1k a month, you're telling me theseguys are so broke they cant even put alittle of the community cash back into it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How much money do you think the owners make off of a site that runs on donations?
Most of the money is going to the developers on the site and not the owners I'm sure.
they have ads. with thousands of people per day. they make massive cash, i don't care what anyone says. at least enough to pay for a decent server.
I rang t-mob Uk on saturday to see if tethering on their omnia 7 was permitted or not.
Intially the woman started to read the specs of the wrong phone. She then said that tethering via bluetooth and usb works.
Not convinced, I did the live chat via the t-mob site. This time I was told that tethering via Bt and usb is fine BUT additionally the wm6.5 type wifi routing works. I find the later hard to believe and am unsure as validity of the former advice.
Can any one confirm?
Thanks
There is no tethering on wp7 as of yet
There is no tethering option on wp7 yet.
Blimey!!!
Thanks for clarifying this.
The pre-release info was conflicting with some people saying that it was possible but at the discretion of the carrier.
So if I go for wp7 I will then need to cough up extra for a separate data plan for my laptop.
Nice one M$- I have been out of contract since June and was happy to wait for wp7 and now it seems that I can't even do the basics that I have been able to do for the last 10 years.
The Applefication of WM is so disappointing.
I guess I have the option of jumping to the good ship android or buying an old HD2 until M$ add the things that grown ups need or until someone here manages to "jail brake" wp7
Does anyone know when tethering might be added?
Thanks
This is the very first release of an entirely new operating system so people need to be a little patient. Tethering support is coming but we don't know when yet. If you absolutely have to have tethering right now then go with another OS.
Ren13B said:
This is the very first release of an entirely new operating system so people need to be a little patient. Tethering support is coming but we don't know when yet. If you absolutely have to have tethering right now then go with another OS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This isn't a slight on you but the "this is new so expect problems" mantra is crap.
Microsoft have been making smart phones for years, they are not new at this game. There is absolutely no excuse for not being able to provide things that exist in their older platforms. Did the bloke that developed cut&paste in the old winCE die and take his secret to the grave?
Why should we be patient? we are expected to cough up £500 for a phone which may or may not be more retarded than previous incarnations. Microsoft know what they can and cannot do, why not publish a road map?
Hell, it's not like the harware is even new technology!!!
imaginarynumber said:
This isn't a slight on you but the "this is new so expect problems" mantra is crap.
Microsoft have been making smart phones for years, they are not new at this game. There is absolutely no excuse for not being able to provide things that exist in their older platforms. Did the bloke that developed cut&paste in the old winCE die and take his secret to the grave?
Why should we be patient? we are expected to cough up £500 for a phone which may or may not be more retarded than previous incarnations. Microsoft know what they can and cannot do, why not publish a road map?
Hell, it's not like the harware is even new technology!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The difference between WP7 and previous Windows Mobile OS versions is why many "less used" features are not yet complete. With WP7, Microsoft actually wants the experience to be fluid and consistent. This means they have to completely rethink and rewrite all the code. There are deadlines, like any business, and certain things had to be deferred to the next update. This is the way things work with software development. iOS and Android had the same issues with their initial releases.
Good things come to those who wait. Expecting everything in hurry will typically leave you with a bunch of poorly written garbage software. Microsoft has already spoken to both copy/paste and tethering. They will add these features and more. If these features are that important to anyone, they should wait for them to be implemented before buying a WP7 device. Otherwise, there are other choices.
imaginarynumber said:
This isn't a slight on you but the "this is new so expect problems" mantra is crap.
Microsoft have been making smart phones for years, they are not new at this game. There is absolutely no excuse for not being able to provide things that exist in their older platforms. Did the bloke that developed cut&paste in the old winCE die and take his secret to the grave?
Why should we be patient? we are expected to cough up £500 for a phone which may or may not be more retarded than previous incarnations. Microsoft know what they can and cannot do, why not publish a road map?
Hell, it's not like the harware is even new technology!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
LOL... so true... there is no excuse really
I am not sold.
I think that many of the omissions are not down to the fact that the MS techies were not bright enough but moreover that they are result of microsoft calculating that customers or carriers did not want certain features.
If your argument held true then wm6.5 would have been nearing perfection and there would be no need for wp7.
Perhaps you are confusing patience with gullibility.
BTW with regard to
"There are deadlines, like any business, and certain things had to be deferred to the next update. This is the way things work with software development"
So what are alpha and beta testing for? Products should work when they get to the market place, not half a year later.
imaginarynumber said:
I am not sold.
I think that many of the omissions are not down to the fact that the MS techies were not bright enough but moreover that they are result of microsoft calculating that customers or carriers did not want certain features.
If your argument held true then wm6.5 would have been nearing perfection and there would be no need for wp7.
Perhaps you are confusing patience with gullibility.
BTW with regard to
"There are deadlines, like any business, and certain things had to be deferred to the next update. This is the way things work with software development"
So what are alpha and beta testing for? Products should work when they get to the market place, not half a year later.
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Click to collapse
You are free to believe whatever you wish. I am not selling you anything. Just giving an educated response.
Nobody is forcing you to buy a WP7 device. I like the way you ignore that ALL the advertised features of WP7 are fully functional. That kind of negates your statement about "products should work when the het to the market place." This has nothing to do with alpha or beta testing. These features are already at that stage of development.
Sent from my X10a using XDA App
imaginarynumber said:
I am not sold.
I think that many of the omissions are not down to the fact that the MS techies were not bright enough but moreover that they are result of microsoft calculating that customers or carriers did not want certain features.
If your argument held true then wm6.5 would have been nearing perfection and there would be no need for wp7.
Perhaps you are confusing patience with gullibility.
BTW with regard to
"There are deadlines, like any business, and certain things had to be deferred to the next update. This is the way things work with software development"
So what are alpha and beta testing for? Products should work when they get to the market place, not half a year later.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think it's about both that and the money. For some reason *cough cough RIAA* Microsoft want users to have to re-purchase whatever files they hope to use on the device.
naplesbill said:
You are free to believe whatever you wish. I am not selling you anything. Just giving an educated response.
Nobody is forcing you to buy a WP7 device. I like the way you ignore that ALL the advertised features of WP7 are fully functional. That kind of negates your statement about "products should work when the het to the market place." This has nothing to do with alpha or beta testing. These features are already at that stage of development.
Sent from my X10a using XDA App
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Click to collapse
Errr....... thanks for sharing the benefit of your education...
Funnily enough I too had an education. This enables me to read posts by Brandon Watson (Director for Windows Phone 7). The same man that said that WP7 would support tethering but at the discretion of the carrier.
Regrettably my education did not include mind reading and thus I did not realise that his statement meant "WP does not support tethering but it may or may not at some point in the near or distant future"
And to which of the advertised features are you referring? How do you know that they all work perfectly? Would the advertised claim that you can "manage.. your email with ease" suffice? Well seemingly not unless you think that having to hard reset your phone in order to delete your windows live account post a typo error is perfection. Or what about the xbox live extras that have been crashing and now removed from the market place?
As consumers we expect products to improve throughout their life cycles. We want features to become better and not just be omitted. It beggars belief that you think that removing givens such as changing ringtones or tetherings is acceptable.
I agree that nobody is forcing me to buy a WP, in the same way that no recalled toyota owner was forced to by a toyota but I guess that toyota never listed non-sticking brakes as advertised features.
Just out of interest- at what point is one allowed to complain? If i wait until I purchase something do I have even less right given that i knew that it was not perfect at the point of purchase?
I love lamp.
kdj67f said:
I love lamp.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
????????????????
Beyond my ken, sorry...
I do get your frustration and went through the same feelings.
My Tilt 2 (Rhodium) can wifi tether right now and it works great, why not the next 'evolution'?
I think the biggest reason I found it from reading forums and listening to other users is this:
We (those of us who use XDA and like to push our tech to do our bidding) want and use features such as tethering. What portion of the demographic is MS seeking here with WP7, surely a much larger base then those who live / breathe XDA yes?
There aren't thousands, heck even hundreds, of people with torches and pitchforks screaming for tethering. We on these and other forums are, but that is only a small representation of the customer base.
Simple point.. it isn't a primary feature to include in V 1.0 launch, I really hope they add it, but there are many other features that come before tethering. Technically you shoud be paying for tethering anyway, in addition to your wireless data plan.
From what I have read, you are mad that you would have to pay what they ask instead of circumventing that, as you have been (me too!) 8)
imaginarynumber said:
Errr....... thanks for sharing the benefit of your education...
Funnily enough I too had an education. This enables me to read posts by Brandon Watson (Director for Windows Phone 7). The same man that said that WP7 would support tethering but at the discretion of the carrier.
Regrettably my education did not include mind reading and thus I did not realise that his statement meant "WP does not support tethering but it may or may not at some point in the near or distant future"
And to which of the advertised features are you referring? How do you know that they all work perfectly? Would the advertised claim that you can "manage.. your email with ease" suffice? Well seemingly not unless you think that having to hard reset your phone in order to delete your windows live account post a typo error is perfection. Or what about the xbox live extras that have been crashing and now removed from the market place?
As consumers we expect products to improve throughout their life cycles. We want features to become better and not just be omitted. It beggars belief that you think that removing givens such as changing ringtones or tetherings is acceptable.
I agree that nobody is forcing me to buy a WP, in the same way that no recalled toyota owner was forced to by a toyota but I guess that toyota never listed non-sticking brakes as advertised features.
Just out of interest- at what point is one allowed to complain? If i wait until I purchase something do I have even less right given that i knew that it was not perfect at the point of purchase?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Resorting to sarcasm in response to a discussion is pointless. If you don't accept the input of others as valid, there is nothing left to say.
Sent from my X10a using XDA App
naplesbill said:
Resorting to sarcasm in response to a discussion is pointless. If you don't accept the input of others as valid, there is nothing left to say.
Sent from my X10a using XDA App
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Click to collapse
The sarcasm was a response to your condescending tone. If you want to take the holier than thou higher moral ground then go for it.
As a long standing WinCE customer I have a right to vent my frustrations and disappointments.
By the same token i don't own an iphone but I retain the right to b!tch about the fact that their greed has (indirectly) fugged up my preferred phone OS.
brytonic said:
I do get your frustration and went through the same feelings.
My Tilt 2 (Rhodium) can wifi tether right now and it works great, why not the next 'evolution'?
I think the biggest reason I found it from reading forums and listening to other users is this:
We (those of us who use XDA and like to push our tech to do our bidding) want and use features such as tethering. What portion of the demographic is MS seeking here with WP7, surely a much larger base then those who live / breathe XDA yes?
There aren't thousands, heck even hundreds, of people with torches and pitchforks screaming for tethering. We on these and other forums are, but that is only a small representation of the customer base.
Simple point.. it isn't a primary feature to include in V 1.0 launch, I really hope they add it, but there are many other features that come before tethering. Technically you shoud be paying for tethering anyway, in addition to your wireless data plan.
From what I have read, you are mad that you would have to pay what they ask instead of circumventing that, as you have been (me too!) 8)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi there Brytonic
here in the Uk t-mobile are more upfront about internet charges and tethering (branded as web'n'walk). My curent contract includes free tethering whereas my previous one had a small premium for the right to tether (which I was happy to pay).
The cost of internet access only without voice is significantly higher than a voice account with web'nwalk bolted on. So if i were to buy a sim free WP the web'n'walk part of my bill would remain unchanged but I would additionally need to pay for web'n'walk for my pc
I agree that we here are only a fraction of the intended market place but it gals me that Microsoft leaked that tethering would be supported.
Am I really being unrealistic to expect a £500 phone to be able to do what my Ericsson T39 could do back in 2001 (ie work as a bluetooth modem)?
If it were the case that we had to wait for the 3g over wifi routing then I would have no problem as that is an enhancement of what I consider to be a rudimentary function.
kdj67f said:
I love lamp.
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Click to collapse
LOL!!! Don't start!! Did "I love lamp" on Facebook and it got way into territory reserved for R18
Actually - maybe that is what this thread needs lol
Took the following quote from http://windowsphonehacker.com/thought_why_activating_your_htc_hd2_is_a_bad_idea-01-14-11.php
Thought: Why activating your HTC HD2 is a bad idea
Hacking normally involves some shady but normally legitimate mods to software to bring to light new functions in your device. In the previous Windows Mobile era, Microsoft leaned towards a policy of ignorance towards what developers did to their devices, which brought forth cooked ROMs, unofficial WM6.5 updates, etc. Today, with Windows Phone 7, the stance has changed.
The HTC HD2, once flashed to Windows Phone 7, will not be able to sync with any Windows Live account. This is similar to Windows activation on the desktop, which requires that the software phone home and register its software key. Since the HTC HD2 is not a Windows Phone 7 device, it is not shipped with a PVK, which means it cannot activate with Microsoft's services. When we first reported yesterday about the HD2 getting live services, we were slightly skewed as to what this actually involves.
After further research, we discovered this to be more of a social hack, a type of hack involving tricking clueless employees into thinking that HTC forgot to activate your device. This calls for reason #1 why activating your phone is a bad idea. By lying to Microsoft, you are basically committing a form of fraud to obtain a license key. We are not experts, and the laws vary from country to country, but keep in mind this is not your usual stealing MP3 type of crime-Microsoft gets your name, number, email address, and device information. If Microsoft wanted to enforce this, long story short, you're in trouble.
Of course, we realize that much of the internet is not concerned about breaking their country's laws, a fact we will not have any judgement on. The second reason why you shouldn't activate your HD2 is a little more concerning for some:
Just think. If Microsoft receives hundreds of calls in 24 hours with users claiming their "HD7s" were shipped without PVKs, they're going to catch on. In fact, when reading on XDA developers, a certain post seemed troubling. A certain user writes:
I called the same # about 30 min ago. She asked me what type of phone it was. I said "schubert" then she asked me what happened to my activation code. I told her they never gave me one when i bought the phone. Then she gave me the code. I think there catching on though. She was like " We sure are selling alot of these phones in the last 24h" There gonna catch on just like with the sd cards a while back. Definitely a red flag. They will probably start asking for the serial # of the phone in the near future.
Other users reported being directed to HTC for support, or having strange comments made by Microsoft representatives. The point is this: when you hack software, the software won't bite back. When you hack humans, someone's going to figure it out, and when they do, a lot is going down.
Of course, by now, Microsoft employees have probably read the news all over the internet, so we're interested in what stance Microsoft takes on the issue. There is no way to "purchase" a PVK, unfortunately, leaving this the only option to activate your HD2 and use the Marketplace. Whatever you do is up to you, but we give our warning: Don't get caught, Don't get Microsoft to backlash on everyone else.
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Click to collapse
So my thoughts are thinking we were going to get an upgrade from Microsoft to take our HD2's from Win mobile 6.5 to 7. They were talking about a new os way back when the HD2 came out.
Great I thought, sold my TytynII paid T-Mobile £200.00 with an 18 month contract (Ouch). And guess what NO UPGRADE, instead HTC make HD7 using the same hardware with a different case(No access to SD card), just to keep MS off their backs and hey we'll throw in a little back stand to keep you happy.
What [email protected], It's not like I can go and buy a retail, OEM or Upgrade of the new OS. So if this means tricking Microsoft into giving me a license key. tough I'll sleep well tonight.
Glad to get this rant off my chest.
I honestly bought an hd7 and I dont remember having a microsoft key anywhere...and there were some users prior to the hd2 thing that couldn't access live =/
We all know there gonna catch up to this, but take advantage now and get your key meanwhile this all happens.
domineus said:
I honestly bought an hd7 and I dont remember having a microsoft key anywhere...and there were some users prior to the hd2 thing that couldn't access live =/
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Click to collapse
Every device that ships with WP7 should already be pre- or activated during the first setup, well WP7 is not being shipped with HD2, and you are basically exploiting MS activation service.
If you know of CyanogenMod Team Douche, they are basically cooking their own distribution of Android, in the earlier days they were packaging their release with Google apps, it didn't sit well with Google, and they had requested CM remove Google apps from their build tree. The reason is that every OEM who decides to issue a device running an Android flavor is getting the OS for free, but have to pay loyalty to include access to the Market.
With the recent developments around WP7 on HD2, one could easily see why MS might not be too happy about it. OEM's pay roughly $10 in licensing fees r per device to MS to put WP7 on their offerings, well HD2 now becomes a device that got it for free.
Seeing how quickly MS moved to shut down ChevronWP7 tools, and actually patching their OS in the next update to prevent unlocking with ChevronWP7 tools, they might incorporate counter measures to prevent HD2 devices running WP7 from access to their Live services, etc.
On the bright note, once it has been hacked it will only be a catch up game between MS and the enthusiasts - see Apple vs IPhone Dev Team.
good little article! i agree with it, not sure i agree with your opinion though.
Nah Cyanogen Mod wasn't in trouble for that. Google was just *****ing about source code sharing. Android is free, Google Apps just need approval.
Also they pay Microsoft $15 usd per license per phone.
vetvito said:
Nah Cyanogen Mod wasn't in trouble for that. Google was just *****ing about source code sharing. Android is free, Google Apps just need approval.
Also they pay Microsoft $15 usd per license per phone.
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agree, never heard of a loyal fee for the market..android is totally free...
MS do not help us upgrade to WP7,,then we do it ourselves...
whenever MS sell the activation code for let's say $30,,i would like to get one right away.
hacking the wp7 in hd2 should not affect the “Genuine” wp7 phone user (now we can say the keys are not unique to each phone.)
and the problem in the future would be the catch up game between MS and dft(?),, the situation could be more difficult than the one in IPHONE. (iphone sales is increasing. hd2 is almost out of shaves.)
vista1984 said:
agree, never heard of a loyal fee for the market..android is totally free...
MS do not help us upgrade to WP7,,then we do it ourselves...
whenever MS sell the activation code for let's say $30,,i would like to get one right away.
hacking the wp7 in hd2 should not affect the “Genuine” wp7 phone user (now we can say the keys are not unique to each phone.)
and the problem in the future would be the catch up game between MS and dft(?),, the situation could be more difficult than the one in IPHONE. (iphone sales is increasing. hd2 is almost out of shaves.)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Android as an OS is free, however to provide the Market access OEM's with carriers have to pay Google.
^ nah, just a myth. You just have to follow Google rules and be approved for the use of Google apps. Its free. Such as the device must be able to make and receive calls in order for it to be approved for the Google market app
vista1984 said:
hacking the wp7 in hd2 should not affect the “Genuine” wp7 phone user (now we can say the keys are not unique to each phone.)
and the problem in the future would be the catch up game between MS and dft(?),, the situation could be more difficult than the one in IPHONE. (iphone sales is increasing. hd2 is almost out of shaves.)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The hammer will come down hard on this one. People are basically screwing MS and HTC out of money.
Your screwing MS out of licensing fees and HTC out of new device sales.
I'm willing to bet MS is preparing to take action right now.
vetvito said:
^ nah, just a myth. You just have to follow Google rules and be approved for the use of Google apps. Its free. Such as the device must be able to make and receive calls in order for it to be approved for the Google market app
The hammer will come down hard on this one. People are basically screwing MS and HTC out of money.
Your screwing MS out of licensing fees and HTC out of new device sales.
I'm willing to bet MS is preparing to take action right now.
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Click to collapse
ouch,,, i do not deny that there is no direct benefit for MS and HTC..
but when it comes to the advertisement or marketing.. we never know..
or would we hd2 users buy more app and music from marketplace?
or is it a big price gap between brand new hd2 and hd7?
..........
it really depend on how manufacturers think.
they don't need to worry about if another "hd2" case will come up,, this phone is real special one
I've been saying this since news broke of all of this.... I would not be surprised if Live accounts, this means your Xbox Gamertags, get indefinitely banned for this...
So who's used their real windows live id on WP7(HD2) and who is waiting for the WP7 update to see if microsoft start banning?
MS won't ban anybody. Just do your homework. They have already stated that they are not supporting the HD2 officialy, but they don't mind ppl; installing it
And why would MS wait for the update to start banning HD2 users
maybe they are waiting just like they do on the xbox360 just before an update occurs they start banning
sjf1 said:
maybe they are waiting just like they do on the xbox360 just before an update occurs they start banning
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Click to collapse
The only reason for banning xbox users is because of piracy, HD2 users presents profit due to ability to access the market. Do you think MS will refuse your money ? I don't think so $.$
I think you shouldn't be worried about this... I would use my real WL account if I were on your place.
they actually do loose out in the actual cost of the OS though. All OEMs pay a licence fee for each handset the OS goes on. You putting it on your HD2 subverts that cost, and therefore MS is not properly being paid for you using their OS.
So it isn't a complete "do it and MS has no problem with it".
The Gate Keeper said:
they actually do loose out in the actual cost of the OS though. All OEMs pay a licence fee for each handset the OS goes on. You putting it on your HD2 subverts that cost, and therefore MS is not properly being paid for you using their OS.
So it isn't a complete "do it and MS has no problem with it".
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Click to collapse
It's only a $15 licensing fee. I, personally, have spent well over $15 in the Marketplace on my HD7 and I suppose an HD2 user would follow suit. I think MS understands this. As long as they can put better security around XAPs, I think they're definately better off allowing it than not allowing it.
They said what they have to say to save face with OEM's but didn't sound like they minded all that much.
Actually, no where have I read that they don't mind it, and I've actually read that they're working to put a stop on the activation codes being handed out. Problem with the HD2 is that most of the time it comes unlocked with chevron, and I can guarantee you that most people who won't pay for the phone, are likely to go pirate most of the paid apps... Just my opinion there. I wouldn't doubt it if Microsoft deactivates a lot of those HD2 devices and then bans the users in the future...
you do realise that the market place forwards a lot of money to the publisher/actual developer. you pay $0.99, they may get like 10c or something. i don't know how much they take, but it isn't the whole thing otherwise devs wouldn't write for WP.
and it is also the principal. you want to use someone's work, you pay for it, not steal it. if you stole a car just because "you wanted to drive it" would the seller/manufacturer be ok with that? no. well let's make it more in line with how it works... so you have a HD2 (make this the body of the car), are you going to steal someone else's engine to make your car (HD2) go better?