Develop Bugs

[NEED HELP!] HD TAKES TOO LONG TO WAKE UP -many missed calls..-

Till now i have found just about everything in xda! Even a similar thread for the same problem but no solution at all!
Thing is, my hd takes too long to wake up for an incoming call..resulting in missed calls all the time..Ring starts in about 3,5 tones..!!! It wakes almost instandly (backlight) but it takes a lot of time to draw the picture etc and THEN starts ringing..
[i am on MIRIS V18 wm6.5, using the default WM dialer with the sliders (not htc's one!) and csdev for autolocking after wake up]
I had similar problems in many roms, even 6.1 .. with the fastest one being 1,5 tone then ring.. Its allready too long for me! I have tried some tweaks, i am not using mp3 for ringtone, using instant ring from hdtweak and no ring delay setting etc..still no luck..
What can be done? I know that many users have the same problem, even with stock roms.. Its same for such a device to be able to do everything sooo sweat but not the phone function!!
So any special tricks?? (font, gdi cache etc settings?) i heard that with sktools and advanced configuration tool etc you can do actually much about that!
Feel free to post your experinces as well, hoping that someone can provide us with a solution or a worthy workaround..!!

I've got the same problem, always have to call people back. Mostly takes about 5 seconds before the answerbutton works, while ringtone is already pissing off the other passengers in the bus
I still think the slow buildip is caused by Wisbar Advance, I used the HD Tweak aswell.

Very Good POST yes you are right many peoples have the same problem i have the same problem!
So i try with HD tweak "Ring without delay" i try with Advanced config and etc Again the same really when someone ring me no matter from the ringtone or anything the phone start ringing after few seconds!
I make few test and what i saw is that if the phone is sleeping when someone call you take longer your phone to wake up and ring
then i try again with no sleepy phone, again ring with delay so i can say if the phone sleep he need few seconds to ring like 5 seconds if the phone not sleep he need 3-4 seconds But at all This is serious problem and maybe is time we to fix this!
I don`t see any point this device to be able to do so much things and we always to Upgrade them but the phone function that we use everyday to make us troubles!
I have this problem with the stock room when the phone was brand new, after i flash the phone with Davideuck V 5 have the same and now im with Davideuck v7 and again is the same ! so no matter what kind of room or radio version you use this problem is real... and really the phone ring with DELAY
Will be perfect if anyone can find desigion of this problem and our phones to start ring immediately without any delay !
Thanks

I have been struggling for months with well-known this 2-sec (far more than this !) delay. The HD tweak didn't work for me either. Furthermore, it has been reported that even if this setting is changed, it is self-reset after a soft reset !
The only solution I found is replacing the HD Caller ID with the WM default one. It is very ugly compared to the modern HTC one, but now my phone takes only 1 sec to respond, that is, wake up, show the Caller ID screen and start ringing.
This replacement can be done from the settings of the HD tweak.
Please let me know if this works for you ! I'm running stock ROM.

Yes if we use the default WM dialer the PHONE is very very fast and ring without ANY delay but its very UGLY so maybe the problem is in the dailer!
Like i say no matter what room you use yes its the same for me with the default WM and the phone just think faster than me
Maybe some programers must to chek this out why this heppand maybe the HD dialer is too heavy?

Yes,thats true! But i am using wm dialer, not htc's one!! Still far from fast..(although i am on wm 6.5 where the default wm dialer with the answering sliders looks awesome, its buggy and slow as hell..[because it needs that the phone is locked in order to run so])
So as i asked around in a major greek forum i have found out that 99% of hd users have the same issue! [that 1% doesn't give a s&@t !]
Here too..What can we do about it..?I am starting to think the 1,5 tone delay as acceptable value..[told you i am on 3+ right now!!] Does anybody know if windows 6.5 that lock with external programm [like csdev] on wake up take normaly so long? Ideas...?

it's always not a good idea to fresh new rom too often

coolmicko said:
it's always not a good idea to fresh new rom too often
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That has nothing to do with the problem man..!
If we could find a way to minimize the load on wakeup!! (so the hd has nothing to load more than the phone function!)is it possible?

Like i told you with the default WM dialer with WM 6.1 the phone ring without delay and is like every normal phone so this mean that the problem is in the dialer..
I think that the HD dialer is too heavy or buggy and this is the reason why take so long to wake up.. the phone!
Maybe some programers must to chek this out what is the diference betwen the default WM dialer and HD dialer we all know what is the diference.. but i mean the diference not how they look like how they are made and all other litle codec files..
So maybe we can find solution to update the HD dialer to be fast as the default WM one..
No matter you are with WM 6.5 and etc.. because till the problem is not solved no matter what room you will use the dialers will be the same made from the same files..
to resolve this we need to know what exactly is the problem to be able to fix it!
Like i say i think that we can find answers in the DIALER but im not programer..

this is very true and this is a very good post gonna supscribe to instant email about it right now ... i think the problem is not only in the dialer i have a stock rom and i had the problem since the very first day but i got a greater delay after installing spb pocket plus while i am not actually using manilla anymore and even a greater delay after installing wisbar advance 3 ... maybe the solution would be in the processor priorities i dont know

So far, i haven't found any solution .
I already made the same post a few months ago :
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=3902624#post3902624

there's got to be a way guys!!
Some time ago, both sides recording was a total NO(!) for htc devices!! They say it was HARDWARE ISSUE and nothing could be done!(for over a year+) Then .. ICR and..voila! We even got tmc now! !
Is it possible to have the slugiest of all phones?? no way!

I think is a question of time we to find solution for our problem with the phone ringing delay!

Managed to get it to 1,5 rings in the same situation!( as i described before, no rom change etc..i was on 3,5 + rings remember!!)
I installed advanced config tool and played with the phone and performance settings.. performance almost set to max values..(font cache etc..)
Phone settings no delay, end key delay from 3000ms to 0 etc..(there are some settings there, so be sure to know what you are doing or backup first!)
Think i can get it to 1..!which will be extremely fast from what i experienced so far!!
Note: the improvements are for the second+ call after a softreset! The first one is ALWAYS slugish!!

Hi kostasalfa,
Mind posting your Adv Config settings? Thanks.

After long... long search I found maybe a solution:
HKCU\ControlPanel\Sounds\RingTone0
Script value to av0pr
I'm going to test but it seems the true way ^^ (thx to AX3L)
D'rath

Ok .. not a "true" solution but got INSTANT ring! (before the end of the first tone!!)
As i said i was on wm 6.5 using the kinda buggy default lock etc...After my advan.config setting which was an improvement i did the following! Stopped csdev and so the deafult lock! I did go back to S2U2 !! (warning,important: set delay after wake up to 300 or better 400 ms!!) And then i tried resco contact manager!(again!) But there is a new beta free for all of you in their forum!( http://www.resco.net/forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=24957 ) Set it to HANDLE INCOMING CALLS! Soft reset.. and voila!! (install s2u2 in device..resco better in sd!)
As i said..not a true solution but i GOT INSTANT RING!!
DONT FORGET TO USE HD TWEAK TO REVERT TO DEFAUL WM DIALER, NOT HTC;S ONE!!!
Try abd tell me if it worked for you!

i use the new energy rom 6.5 standard hav no problems with ring time or receive any late calls or miss calls u guys must check out the roms before loading them

Thanks for suggesting to try Resco Contact Manager. The new beta version seems to have corrected the incoming call delay. So far, my HD responded just before the first ring ends. Still testing.

tatou said:
Thanks for suggesting to try Resco Contact Manager. The new beta version seems to have corrected the incoming call delay. So far, my HD responded just before the first ring ends. Still testing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good news! Resco did it i think..
(i may try the energy rom as wingtytn suggested but i dont think its a roms issue..Ps:wingtytn try to call yourself from another phone to see WHEN it starts ringing..if you got no issues i would lke to know!you use wm stadar dialer?etc!)

Help with BSB latest Rom (6.5.1)..Putting it out the the masses to help out!

Hey, I know this is already in a thread, but I wanted to get it out to the masses as there is alot more chance of someone being able to help me this way...and my problem is really buggin me!
Cheers guys!
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmanashe View Post
Anyone else notice how slow the keyboard is on the new updated kernal rom (6.5.1 a)...also, cant double tap to zoom in opera!! Great great GREAT rom, but annoying problems that make me wanna revert back to 6.5q!! any fixes anyone? anyone kno an ezinput version I can change to to solve this problem? or an opera registry fix to allow double tap to zoom??
Cheers guys....
You change the repeat rate from registry
\HKCU\ControlPanel\Keybd\RepeatRate default 8->4 (or less)
Had no probl. w. double tap to zoom in Opera. You can check the Opera setup with about:config from your browser
bmanashe said:
Hey, thanks for your speedy reply!! if it were not for people like yourself my diamond would be a very dull device indeed!!
Right, I changed the repeat rate and tried from 4 to 3 to 2 right down to 0 and it seems to have no affect on my problem...for example, on my older builds, if i repeatedly pressed '.....' it would input the dots for however many times I pressed the button into my text, even if it did take a few seconds to catch up...now wen I write a text or somethin, i have to wait until the last letter I have pressed is on screen before I can enter a new letter...if I type too quickly, it misses out loads of letters until it feels ready to recieve a new one...before I could just type away and I always knew it would catch up with itself and remember what I had pressed a few milliseconds ago!! now I can repeatedly hit '.......' and only 1 dot will appear on screen! i have to wait a second before I press '.' again! same with backspace....i used to be able to hit backspace repeatedly very quickly and delete a whole load of text, even if it took a second to catch up, now I press it several times and only 1 letter deletes!! I have to wait a few milliseconds to press backspace again before I can delete another letter! very very tedious!! any ideas??! its really buggin me, its ruining the way I text and email. its not just the dots or backspace...every letter is the same, so its basically impossible to type quickly... I've tried another keyboard 2! 'fingerkeyboard' which is really nice and looks great, but it does the same thing!! last build (6.5q) worked fine and the same way as my original 6.1 rom.
Also with opera, I had alook at the config options, but could not see an option to enable double tap to zoom! I dont suppose you know a registry tweak for that aswel do ya??
Looking forward to your reply!
Kind regards
Ben
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can any1 help??! is no-one else that upgraded to Bsb 6.5.1 A/S finding that texting is slower??! its not just the keyboard tho...I notice even when I'm scrolling in Opera or through my list of programmes, I flick my finger quite fast (Like I used to on the other roms) yet the screen does not keep up like it used to!! It gives me the vibration feedback on every finger stroke, but only scrolls if I move my finger abit slower!! someone who upgraded must have the same problem??! plz help..there must be a registry tweek out there sumwhere to increase the reaction speed of the screen..??

Help with BSB latest Rom (6.5.1A/S)..Putting it out the the masses to help out!

Hey, I know this is already in a thread, but I wanted to get it out to the masses as there is alot more chance of someone being able to help me this way...and my problem is really buggin me!
Cheers guys!
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmanashe View Post
Anyone else notice how slow the keyboard is on the new updated kernal rom (6.5.1 a)...also, cant double tap to zoom in opera!! Great great GREAT rom, but annoying problems that make me wanna revert back to 6.5q!! any fixes anyone? anyone kno an ezinput version I can change to to solve this problem? or an opera registry fix to allow double tap to zoom??
Cheers guys....
You change the repeat rate from registry
\HKCU\ControlPanel\Keybd\RepeatRate default 8->4 (or less)
Had no probl. w. double tap to zoom in Opera. You can check the Opera setup with about:config from your browser
bmanashe said:
Hey, thanks for your speedy reply!! if it were not for people like yourself my diamond would be a very dull device indeed!!
Right, I changed the repeat rate and tried from 4 to 3 to 2 right down to 0 and it seems to have no affect on my problem...for example, on my older builds, if i repeatedly pressed '.....' it would input the dots for however many times I pressed the button into my text, even if it did take a few seconds to catch up...now wen I write a text or somethin, i have to wait until the last letter I have pressed is on screen before I can enter a new letter...if I type too quickly, it misses out loads of letters until it feels ready to recieve a new one...before I could just type away and I always knew it would catch up with itself and remember what I had pressed a few milliseconds ago!! now I can repeatedly hit '.......' and only 1 dot will appear on screen! i have to wait a second before I press '.' again! same with backspace....i used to be able to hit backspace repeatedly very quickly and delete a whole load of text, even if it took a second to catch up, now I press it several times and only 1 letter deletes!! I have to wait a few milliseconds to press backspace again before I can delete another letter! very very tedious!! any ideas??! its really buggin me, its ruining the way I text and email. its not just the dots or backspace...every letter is the same, so its basically impossible to type quickly... I've tried another keyboard 2! 'fingerkeyboard' which is really nice and looks great, but it does the same thing!! last build (6.5q) worked fine and the same way as my original 6.1 rom.
Also with opera, I had alook at the config options, but could not see an option to enable double tap to zoom! I dont suppose you know a registry tweak for that aswel do ya??
Looking forward to your reply!
Kind regards
Ben
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can any1 help??! is no-one else that upgraded to Bsb 6.5.1 A/S finding that texting is slower??! its not just the keyboard tho...I notice even when I'm scrolling in Opera or through my list of programmes, I flick my finger quite fast (Like I used to on the other roms) yet the screen does not keep up like it used to!! It gives me the vibration feedback on every finger stroke, but only scrolls if I move my finger abit slower!! someone who upgraded must have the same problem??! plz help..there must be a registry tweek out there sumwhere to increase the reaction speed of the screen..??

Why the double topic???
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=562469

i think it was a problem of that build so you wont be able to fix it until i update the rom... but you know... my diamond is at SAT so be patient

Cheers
Sorry about double post!!! tried to change title but accidently just made it as a new post! I'm going to try and delete it now if I can!!
Makeveral- Thanks for your reply!!! As long as I know I'm not the only one experiencing this issue and at least I know that nothing can be done at the moment!! Like I said before, I think your Roms are really great and I love this new version so much that I dont even want to revert back to the un-finger friendly versions, so I think I will just wait for your diamond to get fixed and for a new update to come out!! I think I can handle it until then!! Have they said your diamond can be fixed then??? your not upgrading and abandoning your precious diamond quite yet??!
Anyways, cant wait to see what new tricks you have up your sleave! keep up the good work and thanks again for your reply and putting my mind at ease!!
Cheers
Ben

bmanashe said:
Sorry about double post!!! tried to change title but accidently just made it as a new post! I'm going to try and delete it now if I can!!
Makeveral- Thanks for your reply!!! As long as I know I'm not the only one experiencing this issue and at least I know that nothing can be done at the moment!! Like I said before, I think your Roms are really great and I love this new version so much that I dont even want to revert back to the un-finger friendly versions, so I think I will just wait for your diamond to get fixed and for a new update to come out!! I think I can handle it until then!! Have they said your diamond can be fixed then??? your not upgrading and abandoning your precious diamond quite yet??!
Anyways, cant wait to see what new tricks you have up your sleave! keep up the good work and thanks again for your reply and putting my mind at ease!!
Cheers
Ben
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i dunno they just took it at the shop and said that they would send it to SAT.. ofc if they find out that im using custom roms they wont fix it but my diamond was really DEAD (i hope )

:O
makeveral said:
i dunno they just took it at the shop and said that they would send it to SAT.. ofc if they find out that im using custom roms they wont fix it but my diamond was really DEAD (i hope )
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, for your sake, I hope they cant so u can get the upgrade! I love the feeling of a fresh new gadget to mess around with!! for all of us who rely on and love our diamonds to bits, I hope u get it back so u can carry on making that great rom!
in the meanwhile, can u suggest a version of your rom that doesnt have the screen problem I mentioned, yet still have those nice finger friendly menu's? or maybe another rom by another developer that u can suggest?? I would really appreciate ur advise...u seem like u kno what ur talkin about! lol
Cheers
Ben

[IDEA] Make Manila faster - speed up tab response

Hi,
I've noticed that the Manila 2.5 responds faster than the older versions - I mean the time needed to load the content of a tab after navigating to it. And I mean the time's shorter not on the HTC HD2 (that's obvious with the Snapdragon and ~450MB RAM), only on my Touch Diamond. I guess it's because HD2 has more RAM and the content of every tab is loaded to the memory at the start of Manila, not when navigating to it.
So my question is if it is possible to tweak Manila 2.1 to load the contents of each tab at the start of the system. I know it would consume more RAM, but it would be much, much faster.
I hope someone will be interested in this
Cheers,
Kamil

Kamill said:
Hi,
I've noticed that the Manila 2.5 responds faster than the older versions - I mean the time needed to load the content of a tab after navigating to it. And I mean the time's shorter not on the HTC HD2 (that's obvious with the Snapdragon and ~450MB RAM), only on my Touch Diamond. I guess it's because HD2 has more RAM and the content of every tab is loaded to the memory at the start of Manila, not when navigating to it.
So my question is if it is possible to tweak Manila 2.1 to load the contents of each tab at the start of the system. I know it would consume more RAM, but it would be much, much faster.
I hope someone will be interested in this
Cheers,
Kamil
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
if the dll are modules then the page opens faster.
while cooking is the dll s are rec modded the the tab response is slower..

So it can be done while cooking a rom, right? Sorry, but I'm a noob in this topic It would be great to have the tabs respond faster, even if the memory usage would grow much!

Anybody's got another idea how to make the tabs open faster?

I've tried to make the sms tab load less messages, hoping that this would make it load faster ...but it did not help at all. It takes about 2,5 seconds to load the sms tab! I (and I guess that many other people) would be very happy to shorten that time - any ideas?

I'm also interested in this.. I use laurentius ROM on my HD which is the fastest I've ever tried, but switching between tabs still takes a few seconds which is really annoying!

I'm still trying to do something with the content of the tab showing up slow and I need some help. I partly understand what's happening on the release of the slider over a tab. The slider icon is moved (TabJumpTo function) and the Navigate function is activated - and here's the problem. There's a line:
Code:
_application.Navigation:Navigate(...)
What is _application? I've seen that you can set/get registry values thanks to this, but where is it defined?
What I want to do is load all of the tabs' content while loading Manila and set it to invisible. After releasing the slider over a tab, the content of the tab would be set to visible. I think this should work, but I need to know what is _application
I hope someone will be able to explain me! Thanks in advance.

I was looking for that too, but then I got an idea - the home tab is always preloaded, isn't it? at least it is faster than any other tab, so I guess yes. I did some small searching and I found something interesting: fakehome. I don't understand LUA well, but it seems that the home tab somehow uses something called fakehome to keep preloaded data and graphics. But I also may be completely wrong

It's good to see that someone is also interested in this topic Unfortunately, fakehome is a mode9 file and there's nothing important in it.
I solved the problem of the slow message tab. The reason why it was opening so long was the number of messages in my inbox - over 1600... Now I have about 50 and it's much faster.

Kamill said:
It's good to see that someone is also interested in this topic Unfortunately, fakehome is a mode9 file and there's nothing important in it.
I solved the problem of the slow message tab. The reason why it was opening so long was the number of messages in my inbox - over 1600... Now I have about 50 and it's much faster.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
bummer

Try to cook without HTC Task Manager....
Only MS Task Manager.

Would it really speed up Manila? I don't see any connection between these two things...

I also noticed the lag on the messaging app, and subsequantly deleted all my messages. However, ive accepted there is going to be lag with it and its just the trade off of running sense 2.5 on the touch pro 2.
Something ive noticed though is there a slight delay u get while scrolling sliding from the home tab on the tf3d to somewhere else, and how this lag aint there when starting from a different tab.
Is there any way to solve this and to make scrolling from the home tab quicker? Apart from this I am very happy with the new rom despite some hickups (which are to be expected due to the lack of snapdragon)

Really i don`t understand why you want app like this when you can do it without app hacks etc.
I know one things very easy and im doing it from 2 years since i have Blackstone
Example after rebot .. wait the whole OS to be loaded etc, once is loaded you click on everytab and wait for the animation, after you do this for all the tabs, they are NOW loaded in some cache and your Manila is faster.
All this take you around 5 Seconds and no need any App.
Also click once da dialer and close it ...this will help your dialer to open faster next time when you use it.

fade2black101 said:
I also noticed the lag on the messaging app, and subsequantly deleted all my messages. However, ive accepted there is going to be lag with it and its just the trade off of running sense 2.5 on the touch pro 2.
Something ive noticed though is there a slight delay u get while scrolling sliding from the home tab on the tf3d to somewhere else, and how this lag aint there when starting from a different tab.
Is there any way to solve this and to make scrolling from the home tab quicker? Apart from this I am very happy with the new rom despite some hickups (which are to be expected due to the lack of snapdragon)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, please! Anyone know how to speed up the slider when starting from the home tab? My slider is superquick starting from any other tab. There must be a fix as I've tried a few other ROMs and they seem to have gotten it worked out.

Issues with 6.5.3??

Hi all,
im currently using Hikey 9.3 ROM which uses build 28002.
It is by far the best, fastest and definately the most stable ROM to date. 5 weeks now and not even ONE soft reset!!!
I have a few small issues but being a slightly more unknown ROM its not well supported so thought I would ask here as I believe the questions could be 6.5 based rather than ROM dependant.
1) Task Manager doesnt close apps only minimises them. In 6.1 this can easily be changed through task manager itself but no such options on 6.5. Any reg changes etc??? p.s. dont refer showcase - love it but freezing issues big time with 6.5 and no current solution.....
2) The standard keyboard changes from qwerty back to default after every soft reset. Just because I havent reset in weeks doesnt solve the problem.
3) Data connection stays open. My email updates every hour and my weather every 2 hours but the data connection doesnt turn off which murders my battery. Any apps or advice here??
Thanks

Hi
I'm using l3v5y's 6.5.3 rom, build 28014, only to issues. 1. when locked you have to tap time first, then unlock. 2. the dailer is missing its skin, i installed ryon WM dailer to fix this
2) The standard keyboard changes from qwerty back to default after every soft reset. Just because I havent reset in weeks doesnt solve the problem.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Only one keboard touch input
1) Task Manager doesnt close apps only minimises them. In 6.1 this can easily be changed through task manager itself but no such options on 6.5. Any reg changes etc??? p.s. dont refer showcase - love it but freezing issues big time with 6.5 and no current solution.....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I click end task and they stop running
3) Data connection stays open. My email updates every hour and my weather every 2 hours but the data connection doesnt turn off which murders my battery. Any apps or advice here??
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry, dont us Data Cons, there is an app that will disable it, check this thread, http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=412850
Page 10ish someone asks same questoin and is given a app
good luck and i would also change to the L3V5Y Rom

Darren8448 said:
Hi all,
im currently using Hikey 9.3 ROM which uses build 28002.
It is by far the best, fastest and definately the most stable ROM to date. 5 weeks now and not even ONE soft reset!!!
I have a few small issues but being a slightly more unknown ROM its not well supported so thought I would ask here as I believe the questions could be 6.5 based rather than ROM dependant.
1) Task Manager doesnt close apps only minimises them. In 6.1 this can easily be changed through task manager itself but no such options on 6.5. Any reg changes etc??? p.s. dont refer showcase - love it but freezing issues big time with 6.5 and no current solution.....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
try installing this task manager and see if it makes a difference.. see attachments
2) The standard keyboard changes from qwerty back to default after every soft reset. Just because I havent reset in weeks doesnt solve the problem.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Install the sip selector and that should stop the keyboard changes after resets
hope that helps

jfran said:
try installing this task manager and see if it makes a difference.. see attachments
Install the sip selector and that should stop the keyboard changes after resets
hope that helps
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm gonna borrow thos cabs to
need for my iPaq

Badwolve1 said:
Sorry, dont us Data Cons, there is an app that will disable it, check this thread, http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=412850
Page 10ish someone asks same questoin and is given a app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry to be a pain but ive read pages 9-15 and cant seem to find it. Also tried search function for 'data connection' but couldnt find it either.
If you could direct further it would be much appreciated, I'll keep looking too

Darren8448 said:
Sorry to be a pain but ive read pages 9-15 and cant seem to find it. Also tried search function for 'data connection' but couldnt find it either.
If you could direct further it would be much appreciated, I'll keep looking too
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've found a solution, its very long winded but I'll see if it works.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=484084