Develop Bugs

WM5... Official? or adapted?

Let me understad one thing....
Is The WM5 upgrade for BA an official work from HTC?
Or is an experiment by a very smart hacker? :twisted:
Anybody knows if will be avalaible an official upgrade by O2 t-mobile or others? :?
Thanx, M

Neither. From what I've heard it's a test version from Microsoft. And it will probably never surface as a regular upgrade because it's even more buggy and need more clever fixes and workarounds then even their usual official releases...

Mastiff said:
Neither. From what I've heard it's a test version from Microsoft. And it will probably never surface as a regular upgrade because it's even more buggy and need more clever fixes and workarounds then even their usual official releases...
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...but thanks God, we have Buzz, Mamaich, xda2jojo, toenalied and others

Yes, right! But the thing is that those guys, and we, are enthusiasts. And this is a build that probably wouldn't cut it commercially, since it's not stable enough or easy enough to get stable for Joe Sixpack and his moron friends.

Mastiff said:
Yes, right! But the thing is that those guys, and we, are enthusiasts. And this is a build that probably wouldn't cut it commercially, since it's not stable enough or easy enough to get stable for Joe Sixpack and his moron friends.
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Click to collapse

Anyway... anybody knows why i should upgrade?
I use the BA for my job... I'd like to have the new WM5 but I don't know if is a good thing to upgrade....
Thanx, M.

If you're dependent on it for your job, and you're not experienced with computers and PPCs, and especially if you can't live with a few annoyances for a while, you should not do it.

I didn't hesitate to install it.
I was a tiny bit worried about turning my phone into an expensive brick, but it was remarkably easy to install WM5 on my BA. Took me about half an hour (most of that being flashing time).
Works fine, all the patches installed so I've got my camera back up and backlight.
Really, sterling work!

buggy???no doubt but all the roms are not perpect...even the PC windows...nevertheless...i love it...

hello guys.
i'm pretty sure it will come out comercial.
sure it's buggy has hell right now, that's why it's a early beta version.
but has you all know, there's microsoft people watching everything, so all the fixes and patches made by our members here at xda-developers are surelly being implemented into the next beta version.
don't think that beta versions are leaked for no reason :wink:

xda2jojo said:
buggy???no doubt but all the roms are not perpect...even the PC windows...nevertheless...i love it...
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To All here discussing this:
I am a big fan of windows based phones/PDAs.In my 10 yrs of cell phone usage time, I have used Nokia(Symbian 60/80/90) SE(UIQ), Mototrola(UIQ) Ipaq 6365 etc etc....But I am noe wandering around HTC Devices, 2/2i/2s/Magician....I hv kept all the three devices and XDA2/BA are with WM 5.AND I AM PROUD TO SAY THAT WM 5 Rocks....With WM 5, battry life has increased,clarity is increased...device has become more stable....All of you might hv come across so many threads of soft resetting the devices...but with WM5 no such problems...no one way sound problems...BT Head sets work flawlessly..and more...data is not lost...

I think there too much problems yet to upgrade... on WM5...
Ciao, M.

Really? I have found it much LESS buggey than any of the WM2003 roms around!
Yes its dose have some issues but it is a Microsoft product after all! If it didnt have any issues I think I would drop dead in shock!
As its for OEMs and mobile networks and going by how well it works (with the legendary Mamaich's patches its very nearly perfect) I'd say that would be very close to how would be if it was officially released...

The bugs have nothing to do with the fact that it is a Micro$oft's product. That's a misconception that's been generated through the rise of Linux and stuff. I use all different types of Software and OSs and not a single one is bugs free. Even Switches and Routers are full of bugs and they're not made my MS.
The fact of the matter is, programmers are only humans and will always make mistakes and learn from it. Thats all programming is about. Making crazy mistakes to mess with the world and then get it fixed later disaster has struck.
WWWeed said:
Really? I have found it much LESS buggey than any of the WM2003 roms around!
Yes its dose have some issues but it is a Microsoft product after all! If it didnt have any issues I think I would drop dead in shock!
As its for OEMs and mobile networks and going by how well it works (with the legendary Mamaich's patches its very nearly perfect) I'd say that would be very close to how would be if it was officially released...
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here's some food for toughts...
The First Windows Mobile 5.0 Device
and this one for the interested
Windows Mobile 5.0 Developer Evaluation Kit
seems pretty oficial to me :wink:

what they meant to say was that there is no official rom for WM5.0 for the BA. yes, WM5.0 has been officially released but mobile OSs are not like PC OSs that you can just grab an installer and plunk it in. due to the tight nature of its integration with the hardware, it is up to your hardware manufacturer to build you a rom that can work with your device.
the unofficial WM5.0 rom means that at least HTC is monkeying with the idea of putting it out there, but it will ultimately be up to the resellers (ie O2 and whatnot) to provide you with an official rom. personally, i hope HTC releases an official rom independent of the resellers.

i am no expert
But I would indeed say that thanks to all on here we will end up with a more stable version of wm5 than will end up being released by the powers that be.
The reason,
Mamaich, buzzlightyear, xdamojo, the lastone and all the others (and yes there are to many to mention, some in just smaller ways but i bet they are a great help to those who do the bulk of the work)
These guys use the devices all day everyday and know the blueangel inside and out (literaly).
Lets be honest, have any previous versions been bug free or anywhere near. Give these guys the stuff to work with and they will get there, but I am sure this is not an overnight process.
We should all take our hats off to them and for those who moan, dont bother upgrading and wait as buzz would say "too infinity and beyond"
For official releases
from all of us who have benefited
CHEERS GUYS :wink:
stay happy
magpie2000k

Are the WM6 roms here pirated?

Knowing this site and seeing the rules as they are I know the site wouldn't allow pirated software on the site. You guys don't even allow talking about it.
Well, when I told a friend I got WM6 for my phone he is swearing up and down with me that it is pirated and that I am in Denial (which makes no sense). I honestly can't explain how it isn't illegal, so I figured I would let you guys tell me how to explain this.

You can't explain it because it is a form of piracy. Unless you put exactly the same version of software back on your phone with at most a few things removed, it's a pirated version. If you've put anything on it that isn't freely given out in the rom that you didn't have before than it's pirated.
This site doesn't condone warez or illegal distribution of applications.The difference is that in order to make use of these rom changes, you have to OWN a device purchased with the microsoft software to begin with.

So why would MS take the time to contact the site to remove some Roms and not all or these?
I would have also assumed pirated if it wasn't for the post to people asking for warez. If they allow one and not the other that isn't right, so I figured it was totally legal to have WM6. Maybe the same way I had Windows Longhorn (vista) back in the development days legally.

Our goal here is to make the software that you legally purchased with your $700 device actually work the way it was intended to work. We don't offer apps that aren't prepackaged with these devices. You purchased a WindowsMobile license when you purchased your device.
There's a complex relationship between m$, device manufacturers and Operators. Each makes changes to these devices. Consider XDA-Developers to be somewhere between the device manufacturer and the Operator level.

yeah, technically you paid for a microsoft license when you bought your phone. Still, copying these WM6 cooked ROMs ARE a form of piracy. But it does'nt really matter seeing as HTC is planning to Release a WM6 update anyway. we just got it a bit early.

Our phones came with WM5 not WM6
but.. HTC released WM6 for their devices but our phone carriers may never release them to us

Come on guys this ROMs are not Paireted as they are not sold off the shelf... this is not windos XP Pro or Vista... this is a per loaded software on the devices and most of the or at least HTC is giving free upgrade....
but the ROM upgrade VOID's your hardware Warranty... as its stated in your Warranty terms...

So basically the terms of use for mobile phones is not the same as desktop software because you have no choice but to purchase a legit license for WM when you buy the phone?

truffle1234 said:
Come on guys this ROMs are not Paireted as they are not sold off the shelf.
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So then, a movie leaked on the Internet before it's actual release date is not pirated?

todd_jg said:
So then, a movie leaked on the Internet before it's actual release date is not pirated?
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That is not the point. The line, though a thin one, seems to be over whether you would normally have to PAY for the software. Thus depriving someone/corporation of revenue it would normally receive.
WM6 will not be charged for. So within those parameters does not fall within the the strict term "Piracy".

That's pretty close Wam7. Operators and/or hardware developers pay licensing fees to m$ for every device they sell. That cost is supposedly subsidized in the price we pay. Therefore, as you say, revenues aren't decreased by our work here. With Warez, this isn't the case as the hacker deprives the author of revenue with every hacked version that gets used.
This is why we don't tolerate Warez here.

Mcrosoft Offering Windows Mobile 6 Free
In this article:
http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/...ws-mobile-6-upgrade-for-device-manufacturers/
It is apparent that Windows Mobile 6 is being offered as a free upgrade to device manufacturers. In reality, what we early adopters are doing is beta testing the OS prior to final release. Microsoft, with their droves of legal experts, may wish to twist this into some sort of piracy, ip, rights issue to save face or just to be a$$hole$, and carriers may wish to add and take away what they want as well (I believe it was Cingular that whined to M$ about XDA-Developers), but the REALITY is that nobody here is doing anything more than unauthorized beta testing of an OS that has been released FOR FREE to device manufacturers. It may be more of a gray area when it comes to the addon applications that sometimes come bundled with the cooked ROMS, or as separate addons (i.e. Cyberon Voice Command), but only if the device you purchased did not originally include the same software. I am NOT a lawyer, and I am sure a lawyer could argue against my point just as easily as they could argue that a child molester is a victim of society. Nonetheless, I do not feel like I am doing anything wrong, and, in fact, I felt very annoyed at Cingular when they refused to give me a refund for my 8525 after I decided it was unusable 45 days after getting one (30 days is the policy for returns). My 8525 sat in a drawer for months, until I decided to flash with a WM6 ROM from this site. Suddenly, it worked! No more freezing, no more bluetooth bullcrap, no more missed calls. I agree with sleuth 100% when he says that what we are trying to do is get our devices to work as they should (stable, fast, trouble free). Despite the constant whining that some of the geeks on this site continue doing about petty bullcrap, bless them for stepping up and delivering a working product to those of us that would otherwise have to sit and wait for a bloated crapware ROM from Cingular with that POS "Get Express Mail" and "Get Telenav" cooked into it, and bless the power users who truly beta test the product to help make a better ROM.

Firehawkns said:
Knowing this site and seeing the rules as they are I know the site wouldn't allow pirated software on the site. You guys don't even allow talking about it.
Well, when I told a friend I got WM6 for my phone he is swearing up and down with me that it is pirated and that I am in Denial (which makes no sense). I honestly can't explain how it isn't illegal, so I figured I would let you guys tell me how to explain this.
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Who cares, MS is not going out of business, nor will the price of XP/Vista or my next HTC phone go down if I paid for WM6. I dont see Bill Gates eating in a soup kitchen.....oh and the fact that WM6 will be given free as an upgrade can make all the others feel warm and not dirty about themselves.

You see though why it still is piracy, at least right now. For every device running this wm6 software microsoft should have received a payment. If for some reason cingular decides not to upgrade these afterall (I'm just using this as hypothetical) then microsoft is in fact loosing some money. WM6 is not a free upgrade, that misprint was shot down by several new articles after it came out. The reason this form of piracy is accepted is because the end user has no possible way to PAY for the software legally, you have zero options to legally aquire the newer OS. Thus your pirating it becomes a "gray" area of the law.
This is no different than the canadians stealing DTV's signal from the US. They could not legally aquire the signal, their payment would not be accepted, thus they turned to the only other way to get it. That's of course all changed recently.

wpbear said:
Who cares, MS is not going out of business, nor will the price of XP/Vista or my next HTC phone go down if I paid for WM6. I dont see Bill Gates eating in a soup kitchen.....oh and the fact that WM6 will be given free as an upgrade can make all the others feel warm and not dirty about themselves.
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Oh trust me I don't care. I have 3 pirated XP pro machines running at my house. We just got in a discussion about it so I wanted to see what the answer was. It all started because of all the hell he gives me for my software habbits.

Hey, where is the EULA that I supposedly agreed to? I don't see one anywhere.

and since when do we have pirated beta software? Man, we're been risking our precious device to beta test WM6 for them.

Hmmm.... Well, I think that Microsoft may disagree with that.
http://www.brighthand.com/default.asp?newsID=12837
Similarly, other boards have taken a different view.
http://www.phonenews.com/blog/content/view/133/11/
upgrade the Cingular 8125 from Windows Mobile 5 to Windows Mobile 6. That would be a product upgrade and not a product update, and would require a new license from Microsoft
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Also, the argument could be well made that putting WM6 on a device for which it was not intended DECREASES the sales of the devices it is supposed to go on - limiting upgrades. This would most definitely cut revenue - for the device manufacturers, M$ and the carriers who leverage the upgrades for contract extensions.
That said, I agree that it is a very fine line and that both sides of the argument can be made. However, in a courtroom fight, my money is on M$.

Back in the day when direct tv hacking was very easy the canadian government said this.
If you can't buy it, its not stealing.
Same thing applies here in my opinion based on software.
going back to direct tv hacking they also said if it falls in your backyard then its owned by you. What did direct tv do? They made it harder to decrypt their signals. Solved their piracy problem, even if it was legal in some countries.

I like this thread - I hope people don't mind this philosophical discussion and that they take it as a fun mental exercise, not an argument.
exstatica said:
canadian government said this.
If you can't buy it, its not stealing.
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So, then you would not mind if I came to your house and took your refrigerator, which is not currently for sale? Not sure about that one - seems overly simplistic. The fact that it is not currently "on the market" is not the same as saying that it has no monetary value.
they also said if it falls in your backyard then its owned by you.
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I don't think that this argument would apply here. Surely the signals from DirecTV were being blasted down into your yard by a satellite. I think they Internet is quite different. Hmmm.... interesting though.

Official ROM update confirmed

HTC norway was interviewed today at www.amobil.no, and the following question was raised from one of the readers, with the following reply.
Question:
Reader said:
(...) Second of all: Windows Mobile 6.5 and 7.0; will it be possible to update Diamond, Pro and HD and/or other models with the new versions of WM?
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Reply:
HTC Representative said:
There'll be a ROM-update for Diamond and Touch Pro in january , where we got a new MSFT release for WM6.1 and improved TouchFlo3d."
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Source (norwegian)
At least that confirms the 2.0 version we've seen? And the release date Hurray!

wew
that's grate news

TFLo3d
It's not as responsive as I see it in the youtube vids.
Seems to run flawlessly.
I notice a real slow down when I import contacts. I have quite a few.

and what is with the new versions of WM?

To the question : "WM6.5 or WM7 on diamond ?", the answer is "YEEES ! you will have WM6.1++ !!!"
I think it means we won't have them from HTC, as they probably reserve it for a brand new phone they'll try to sell us...
But XDA developpers are the bests, so i'm sure we can expect them to cook a nice WM7 Rom as soon as it will be available...

Let's hope WM7 will be able to run on our Diamonds. Can't wait till the release!

Not too sound too negative, but I mean WM6 kills the diamond - it makes it choke (cooked ROM's or not).
Hopefully that won't be the case for WM7. Because up to this point, I'm rooting Android all the way

This is pure speculation from all of us, since we're talking about an unreleased product. That said, Windows 7 beta seems a lot snappier than Vista (I know - doesn't say much) and slightly faster than XP. So, maybe WM7 will run faster than 6.1?

Some people have mentioned WM7, I highly doubt HTC will release 6.5 for the Diam/Raph/BlackS, never mind 7.
Good thing we have xda-devs, though I suspect that 7 will require new and diff. hardware in phones, such as multitouch.

how reliable is the news?
yea wm really sucks.. ms is really poor at innovation..
diamond doesnt have multi touch?
anyway been waiting for a new official rom for a damn long time.. was tempted to flash to a cooked rom.. so i guess can wait till jan for now to see what they offer..
Hopefully they resolve issues like memory leak.. and learn from the forums what the users really expect of the diamond and tf3d..

LOL when it be wm7 upgrade you ll have another **** phone from htc so what are you solving here i consider that due to ms is poor bastard* wm7 will be at 2010...just look to articles and news...

detroix said:
how reliable is the news?
(...)
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The guy interviewed is:
"Selskapets produktsjef for de nordiske og baltiske markedene, Christer Högström" ==> "HTC's Chief of Products for the nordic and baltic markets, Christer Högström"
So probably as reliable as it gets before the actual download is available.
Edit:
HTC actually got a bunch of questions regarding WM6.5 on current models, to sum up they're answers:
HTC will have to pay an upgrade license per device for 6.1 to 6.5, the details regarding this is not all worked out yet, so he couldn't answer if there would be released official 6.5 updates and if it would be free or a upgrade fee involved.
I suppose most/many of the hardcore users would be interested in upgrading if the fee vs gains is the right...

Don't hold your breath!
If HTC release an official 6.5 ROM upgrade for the Diamond, I will video myself eating my device and post it on YouTube for all to see! New OS means sales of NEW devices.... this makes good sense for businesses. Why offer an upgrade for a device someone has already bought when they can sell you a nice new device with the latest OS installed?
Thank goodness for XDA Developers, that's what I say! We will have our upgrade one way or another!

grahamkdt said:
If HTC release an official 6.5 ROM upgrade for the Diamond, I will video myself eating my device and post it on YouTube for all to see! New OS means sales of NEW devices.... this makes good sense for businesses. Why offer an upgrade for a device someone has already bought when they can sell you a nice new device with the latest OS installed?
Thank goodness for XDA Developers, that's what I say! We will have our upgrade one way or another!
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Tottaly agree. (Even though i wouldn't mind seeing Diamond beeing eaten )

Ooops!
Jura_ZG said:
Tottaly agree. (Even though i wouldn't mind seeing Diamond beeing eaten )
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... yes, I might live to regret putting that in print!

will it happen????????
i don't think so....it will be xda members that will make it happen....
not the phone operators....they want you to buy a new phone and sign up again for 12 months +....well thats what i think any how

Jura_ZG said:
Tottaly agree. (Even though i wouldn't mind seeing Diamond beeing eaten )
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I totally agree too. The same happened for my old Trinity (no wm 6.1 version was released by HTC but very good cook version from xda people )

jojordy said:
I totally agree too. The same happened for my old Trinity (no wm 6.1 version was released by HTC but very good cook version from xda people )
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i miss my trinity.....great phone

liamhere said:
i miss my trinity.....great phone
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I confirm! I sell it to a friend but in my opinion for more things is much better than my new diamond ... (only few ram)

Making an upgrade available for some small fee wouldn't be that bad. Bussinesswise I understand your viewpoints but on the other hand, I buy my phone for 500EUR ($800 or something) I think for that price I can get some service. If I get bad service I wouldn't stay with HTC, but frequent updates will make me buy another one (or your operator will buy another one for you with ur contract), if that's 500EUR every 2 years I think they can be really happy.

Is there a new official ROM comming up?

Hi all,
I have a question, does anyone know if there will be a new official rom for the TP2? The last ROM update, as we all know, had the SOD problem and it would be nice of HTC to patch that up with a new ROM.
Or HTC maybe declared WM6.5 dead and already moved on to WP7.
Maybe someone knows
Grtz FeareX

Not likely, since the phone has been discontinued.

Miami_Son said:
Not likely, since the phone has been discontinued.
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What do you mean by discontinued?

Jackos said:
What do you mean by discontinued?
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As in no longer in production. AT$T is the only carrier still offering it and replacements through Asurion are refurbished units, not new. Development is pretty much over as it has reached its end of life.

Miami_Son said:
As in no longer in production. AT$T is the only carrier still offering it and replacements through Asurion are refurbished units, not new. Development is pretty much over as it has reached its end of life.
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Right, but it still has HTC tech-support.

Jackos said:
Right, but it still has HTC tech-support.
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Yeah, but don't expect any more ROM upgrades from HTC. They've moved on.

Wouldn't be so sure. They just released a rom update for Leo, a fix for corrupted microphone in speakerphone mode for Rhodium and People application update for Rhodium too.

Those were to fix issues that needed fixing. There is nothing on our phones that doesn't work properly with the stock ROM. This last AT$T ROM update was an enhancement (Sense 2.5) and will probably be the last official Rhodium ROM to come from HTC. We might see a hotfix or two, but not another complete ROM update.

What about SoD and performance problems?
Also some users are reporting problems with droped calls. We just need HTC's attention.

Those aren't necessarily ROM issues. I've had a total of one unexplained SOD in the first month I owned the phone. The rest have been related to my overclocking it. Dropped calls are more a carrier issue, not a device issue. My Tilt 2 runs great on WinMo 6.5 and TF3D 2.1. That's why I skipped the latest update to Sense 2.5, which seems to have caused more problems than it fixed. No company keeps fixing problem in perpetuity. This phone is already 18 months old, which is ancient in terms of cell phones, and most are near or beyond the end of their factory warranty period. Unless there is still a problem that affects all or a large percentage of users and isn't related to user mods, don't expect HTC to throw any more of their resources at trying to fix it. They would much rather concentrate on newer phones that are still in the retail channel. Now that M$ is done with WinMo 6.5, there isn't much incentive for HTC to waste any more time with it. That's just the ugly truth.

SoD and performance are rom problems for sure.
Dropped calls is a radio rom issue for me, because if you use another phone with this same sim card the problem disappears (in this same area). However this might be a hardware antenna problem.

Dude, why do you keep arguing with me? Unless everyone or a large majority of users are having the exact same issue, it isn't a ROM problem. The SODs could very well be a hardware and/or a software issue, but it is still not one that everyone is suffering from. Almost every PC running Windows has had a freeze at one time or another, you think M$ is going to continue trying to fix every version of Windows it's ever made? A phone that drops calls easier than another isn't necessarily defective, either. When I had my RAZR V3 I hardly ever dropped calls. When I moved to a Smartphone I started dropping calls like crazy. Put simply, the Smartphone was less powerful because of the space needed for so many other components that the radio section suffered. Places I easily got 4-5 bars on my RAZR I now get 2-3 bars on my Tilt 2. Can't be helped other than by HTC coming out with another model with a better radio. They aren't going to improve the TP2/Tilt 2 to make it better. They're done with it.

Miami_Son said:
Dude, why do you keep arguing with me?
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Because it's a forum? I don't agree with your opinion, so why should I stay quiet? Do you feel offended or what? It's a crime to disagree or point other arguments? Sometimes I really feel that this forum lost its soul.
Miami_Son said:
Unless everyone or a large majority of users are having the exact same issue, it isn't a ROM problem.
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Not true at all?
Miami_Son said:
The SODs could very well be a hardware and/or a software issue, but it is still not one that everyone is suffering from.
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Hardware? So why it doesn't occur on S0 or S1 roms? Only on S2?
Miami_Son said:
They aren't going to improve the TP2/Tilt 2 to make it better. They're done with it.
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Any arguments for that? Their last update was on 12-th November, not even a month ago (for other countries even later).

Whatever, man. I never told you to shut up, I just don't see why you have such a hard time accepting the truth. I pointed out the reality that once a product has reached its end-of-life and is no longer being manufactured, much, if not all, development comes to a halt. This is true of almost any consumer electronic item you can think of. The Tilt2 had a total of one updated ROM released by HTC for it recently and a couple of hotfixes back in February and a couple after the release of this latest ROM. I would bet money that is the last we'll see from HTC on this phone. There are just too many other newer phones they need to concentrate on and support instead of a nearly 2 year old model. For the most part, the carriers would have to be bugging them for an update and most of them are more interested in selling you a new phone to replace it and extending your plan another 2 years. I've been around the retail electronics business (family store) for over 30 years and that's just the way it works, only today, with such short product cycles, it is even worse. You have a much better shot at some developer on XDA fixing these issues, but even many of them haved moved on to other phones. Life goes on.
And not to make you feel bad, but I have had very few issues with my Tilt2 and most were caused by something *I* did, not the phone or the software. I hate to say it, but I think a lot of the SODs and performance issues are related to poor quality control and user error and tweaking, not the phone or software itself. And then there's just some things in WinMo that have been ongoing issues for years. trust me, I know. I've been a WinMo user since 2003 and I'm amazed at some of the things I see still causing problems.

Miami_Son said:
Whatever, man. I never told you to shut up, I just don't see why you have such a hard time accepting the truth. I pointed out the reality that once a product has reached its end-of-life and is no longer being manufactured, much, if not all, development comes to a halt. This is true of almost any consumer electronic item you can think of. The Tilt2 had a total of one updated ROM released by HTC for it recently and a couple of hotfixes back in February and a couple after the release of this latest ROM. I would bet money that is the last we'll see from HTC on this phone. There are just too many other newer phones they need to concentrate on and support instead of a nearly 2 year old model. For the most part, the carriers would have to be bugging them for an update and most of them are more interested in selling you a new phone to replace it and extending your plan another 2 years. I've been around the retail electronics business (family store) for over 30 years and that's just the way it works, only today, with such short product cycles, it is even worse. You have a much better shot at some developer on XDA fixing these issues, but even many of them haved moved on to other phones. Life goes on.
And not to make you feel bad, but I have had very few issues with my Tilt2 and most were caused by something *I* did, not the phone or the software. I hate to say it, but I think a lot of the SODs and performance issues are related to poor quality control and user error and tweaking, not the phone or software itself. And then there's just some things in WinMo that have been ongoing issues for years. trust me, I know. I've been a WinMo user since 2003 and I'm amazed at some of the things I see still causing problems.
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1) I had just one issue, it's already fixed by HTC. No more issues at all
2) Poor quality control? Software just should be prepared for all situation. For all those years I have been a developer, I never called an user action stupid or poor. I always tried to predict all situations. That's how software should work.
3) WinMo user since 2003 - glad to read your references... Shall I show mine?
I agree with this opinion, WM never was even close to perfection. From the other side, it always was a step ahead in customization and features.

Jackos said:
1) I had just one issue, it's already fixed by HTC. No more issues at all Then what are you waiting for an updated ROM for?
2) Poor quality control? Software just should be prepared for all situation. For all those years I have been a developer, I never called an user action stupid or poor. I always tried to predict all situations. That's how software should work. You're living in a fantasy world. I'm glad that you have that attitude towards the code YOU write, but M$ has never thought that way. Not with Windows 3.0 (what I started on) and not on Windows7, which still suffers from niggling issues carried forward from several versions back. Despite there still being a large XP user base, do you think they are still putting much effort into fixing its problems? They did, it's called Windows Vista, which Windows 7 was created to fix after that. What I meant about stupid user action is the many things we do ourselves that break our phones. I mean, we're on XDA because we aren't satisfied, right? So we mod and fix and customize and sometimes mess things up. How many times have you installed a cab or regedit and reboot with your fingers crossed?
3) WinMo user since 2003 - glad to read your references... Shall I show mine?
I agree with this opinion, WM never was even close to perfection. From the other side, it always was a step ahead in customization and features. Sure is, and that's what we love about it.
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Much of the problem with our phones is that they were compromised from the start. The hardware, while cutting edge at introduction, wasn't really designed for the things that our mods and updated ROMs are trying to do on it. A TP2 running WinMo 6.1 is actually a pretty fast, reliable machine. Then AT$T decided that to compete they wanted their version to run WinMo 6.5 with TF3D. Still, not so bad, performance remained acceptable. Then they put Sense 2.5 on it and the shortcoming and issues multiplied ad infinitum. The phone itself didn't change, but in trying to keep up with the iPhoneses we asked more and more of it and, well, it wasn't quite up to the task. At least not for real power users, anyway. That being the case, do you think HTC will keep trying to squeeze more performance out of a discontinued device just to make a small cadre of XDA and PPCGeeks users happy with their totally underpowered, by comparison to what's available today, TP2s and Tilt 2s? Not likely. I'm just a pragmatist that way. I love my Tilt 2 and it does all I want right now. I'm eligible for an upgrade already, but I'm in no hurry. If something really worthy comes along or the Tilt 2 no longer meets my needs, I'm gone. I just hope that it offers me near or better the same level of personalization that my Tilt 2 does. From what I've seen of XDAndroid, I'm happy to wait awhile longer. Good talking to you and although I don't use one of your ROMs, I appreciate that you're here and have been helping the community all these years.

Hehe, I think that anything has been said here already
Just to clarify - I do not run into troubles, because I'm creating my own roms - something that in my opinion works like it should right out of the factory. I demand HTC to fix performance/sod/radio issues in their latest stock S2 rom.
It's a flagship, business and high-end device. How the **** did they released such a trashy ROM for it?
About the MS Vista example, MS still does publish fixes and updated software for it. Hah, even XP is still supported. "In an unprecedented move, Microsoft has committed to providing support services for its soon to be retired Windows XP through 2014 -- a full 13 years after the operating system was originally released."@InformationWeek
Why doesn't HTC act same? TP2 is still a very popular device.

Jackos said:
It's a flagship, business and high-end device. How the **** did they released such a trashy ROM for it?
Why doesn't HTC act same? TP2 is still a very popular device.
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Simple answer for both questions is, because HTC doesn't make the base software their devices run on. They are saddled with the problems they inherit from Microsoft. They would be wasting time and money to try and fix the things in WinMo that don't work right, which is why so many manufacturers and developers are abandoning the platform. Years of trying to work with M$ and still too many disgruntled customers to show for it. WinPho7 is a perfect example. How can you come to market with a new OS that doesn't support something as simple as cut-and-paste, a feature the previous OS has had for years? It seems like a small thing, but it just shows how M$ is constantly missing the mark on functionality and user experience. And why something like Android was able to garner so much market share in such a short period of time.

Jackos said:
Hehe, I think that anything has been said here already
Just to clarify - I do not run into troubles, because I'm creating my own roms - something that in my opinion works like it should right out of the factory. I demand HTC to fix performance/sod/radio issues in their latest stock S2 rom.
It's a flagship, business and high-end device. How the **** did they released such a trashy ROM for it?
About the MS Vista example, MS still does publish fixes and updated software for it. Hah, even XP is still supported. "In an unprecedented move, Microsoft has committed to providing support services for its soon to be retired Windows XP through 2014 -- a full 13 years after the operating system was originally released."@InformationWeek
Why doesn't HTC act same? TP2 is still a very popular device.
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I completely agree with you... I'm tired of using tp2 with the problems that it has...
I mean, before ending with HTC tP2, they must make a final ROM version of content which all fixed and upgrades for HTC's faith real customers.
It's not everyone who wants to use WP7... I do not know about you but I will never buy a mobile with WP7 or iPhone...

I'm also having SOD about every day.
Started after the upgrade from WM6.5 to WM6.5.5
So I downgraded to WM6.5 again, but the problems stayed.
I don't have changed anything on the ROM, and I'm using the official ROM's of HTC.
I even ran a week with WM6.5 out of the box, and the problems still occurred.
So blaiming the users is quite short sighted...
And after complaining for 6-9months at HTC, I gave it up.
PS:
I don't think the TP2 is out of live over here (the Netherlands), or it's just stock they are emptying.
It's fully available in many stores, and online.

Will WP7 devices today lose features when upgraded to WP8? I'm worried.

So it is pretty much confirmed that Windows Phone 8 will use the Windows 8 ARM kernel, and Windows Phone 8 will be compatible with apps for Windows Phone 7/7.5. This is true because most WP apps today are written in Silverlight or XNA, which does not care what kernel the OS uses as long as there's an interpreter for the compiled code. Only a few apps use native code that needs to be recompiled for Windows Phone 8.
But what about the hardware drivers and OEM customizations on our phones? OEMs are mandated to use Qualcomm processors, but they can use whatever brand of camera modules and sensors as long as the drivers are there. Special camera modes and functions are provided by the phone OEM which I believe is low level enough, they are written in native code. Special functions not provided by Windows Phone 7 itself, such as DLNA or SRS Sound Enhancer, are also likely to be native code.
How can these native code intended for the Windows CE 6 kernel survive a kernel change to Windows 8 ARM? Will the OEMs rework their stuff to support Windows Phone 8? Or will we lose the OEM features when we upgrade to WP8? Will there be devices stuck in WP7.x forever because crucial hardware drivers (e.g. driver for the camera and sensors) aren't available for WP8?

Who knows. But the only existing rumor that would give an answer to your query is that no single WP7 device will ever be updated to Apollo, so no features will be lost.

vangrieg said:
Who knows. But the only existing rumor that would give an answer to your query is that no single WP7 device will ever be updated to Apollo, so no features will be lost.
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WTF you smoking?
The rumor is that ALL EXISTING windows phone 7 devices including 1st generation will update to apollo. They may however not have all the features if hardware requires them. Tango brings support for lowerend handsets and will update to apollo. If your carrier doesn't roll out the update, look for it in the send cab thread and load it yourself. They are ms stock updates so no worries about a hacked version.

I didn't say that's what I think or believe. There hasn't been any official info on the upgrade path whatsoever. The only information was that WP7 apps would work on WP8. Which, come to think of it, doesn't say anything about current device upgradeability.
The rumor is that there won't be any upgrades. Take it as a rumor, I'm not trying to endorse it in any way, just acknowledging it exists.
I personally would give it some credit but not in the sense the source implies. I'd say he's playing. WP7 devices may never get "Apollo" which is this unicorn WP based on NT kernel, but from the end user perspective all you need is Apollo runtimes ported to WP7. So you'll have most of the WP8 experience on WP7 without running WP8. And of course you'd keep your beloved HTC hub and such stuff on your current device.
But all that is my speculation, not founded on any solid data.

http://wmpoweruser.com/tag/apollo/
The rumors are false. No one has actually said but it would be logical that it would... especially for 2nd gen handsets.

vangrieg said:
I didn't say that's what I think or believe. There hasn't been any official info on the upgrade path whatsoever. The only information was that WP7 apps would work on WP8. Which, come to think of it, doesn't say anything about current device upgradeability.
The rumor is that there won't be any upgrades. Take it as a rumor, I'm not trying to endorse it in any way, just acknowledging it exists.
I personally would give it some credit but not in the sense the source implies. I'd say he's playing. WP7 devices may never get "Apollo" which is this unicorn WP based on NT kernel, but from the end user perspective all you need is Apollo runtimes ported to WP7. So you'll have most of the WP8 experience on WP7 without running WP8. And of course you'd keep your beloved HTC hub and such stuff on your current device.
But all that is my speculation, not founded on any solid data.
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I've been spending half my net time today trying to find an answer for this question. I've resisted putting WP7 on my HD2, but it's slowly dying, and my contract ends in a couple of months, so I'm researching the best options now, only to find that I may yet again be buying another obsolete OS as WP8 is due in Q4. My problem is to buy the phone with the best hardware, which isn't much different to the lowest spec in WP7, and then upgrade the OS when it's released, or to buy a 1st gen phone cheap on a shorter contract so that my time on WP7 is limited and I can get a new WP8 phone a while later. Hopefully MS will announce something soon...
WMPoweruser has these pages-
We [MS]were pretty clear on this. Any app built today will run on next major Windows Phone version.
microsoft-needs-to-reassure-windows-phone-7-buyers-their-phones-are-upgradable
do not base a whole rumour on only something Eldar say
windows-phone-roadmap

because of the newer phones coming out though prolly what i would do is pick up a cheap surround or focus off ebay to get you buy (they are less then 100.00) and use your upgrade on a premium phone on release. Apollo is bringing multicore phones so you won't see them until then since pre-apollo doesn't support them. Once it's released, if you 1st gen makes it, sell it and you'll get your 100 bucks back with apollo already on it. If it doesn't, well you still haven't used your upgrade so you can get a new phone at a low cost with contract renewal.

bbobeckyj said:
I've resisted putting WP7 on my HD2, but it's slowly dying, and my contract ends in a couple of months, so I'm researching the best options now, only to find that I may yet again be buying another obsolete OS as WP8 is due in Q4.
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Also, remember that Mobile World Congress runs from 27 February to 1 March. There will probably be more information coming out around that time.
Here's another article (published in November) from a former Microsoft distinguished engineer.
http://hal2020.com/2011/11/04/windows-phone-8-and-windows-8-cousins-or-siblings/
His opinion was:
It is likely WP8 will run on first generation WP phones, and near certain it will work on the second generation (those that initially ship with) WP7.5 Microsoft wants a reputation of being as end-user friendly as Apple and so will not drop updates on older phones until their is a technological reason to do so. Plus it isn’t likely to want to piss people off who are sill in a 2-year contract period, which will be the case with most of the installed base. So I don’t see WP8 as a reason to wait. Now if you already have a first gen device (e.g., Samsung Focus) you might want to skip the second gen (e.g., Focus S) and see what happens next summer or fall.
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At the moment, I haven't seen any compelling evidence about WP8 upgrades one way or the other.

I don't think they will even have a beta for it this year, i would say they would push it out by this time next year, maybe we will get something from MIX13?

ROCOAFZ said:
because of the newer phones coming out though prolly what i would do is pick up a cheap surround or focus off ebay to get you buy (they are less then 100.00) and use your upgrade on a premium phone on release. Apollo is bringing multicore phones so you won't see them until then since pre-apollo doesn't support them. Once it's released, if you 1st gen makes it, sell it and you'll get your 100 bucks back with apollo already on it. If it doesn't, well you still haven't used your upgrade so you can get a new phone at a low cost with contract renewal.
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No such luck, nothing is going that cheaply in England, and the shortest contract on a new phone is for 18 months. I've got about 2 months to go, hopefully we'll know more by then, and the Titan 2 and Lumia 900 are due out soon after that...

The first Gen devices will be updated, just like the iPhone 3GS is still updated (released in 2009 and just got iOS5).

prohibido_por_la_ley said:
The first Gen devices will be updated, just like the iPhone 3GS is still updated (released in 2009 and just got iOS5).
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Do you know this for a fact, or is it just what you think will happen?
If the former, do you have a source?
If the latter, I would like to agree, and my gut feeling is the same. But this being microsoft you can't assume too much.

bbobeckyj said:
Do you know this for a fact, or is it just what you think will happen?
If the former, do you have a source?
If the latter, I would like to agree, and my gut feeling is the same. But this being microsoft you can't assume too much.
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you folks have craigslist ( or similar local for-sale listings ?) in england ? that's where i buy and sell my handsets. generally they're between 1/2 to 1/4 of the new price at a store, and you have hands-on experience before handing off the cash.
anyway, as to the update rumors and assumptions... i wouldn't trust any of them until it's in hand. not one.

ohgood said:
you folks have craigslist ( or similar local for-sale listings ?) in england ? that's where i buy and sell my handsets. generally they're between 1/2 to 1/4 of the new price at a store, and you have hands-on experience before handing off the cash.
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We do have craigslist, but it's not anywhere near the same size as the US site, it's next to useless outside of the major urban areas like London. eBay is more popular and even that has very few WP7 items for sale. The ones on sale are still quite expensive, I'm watching less than ten, all first gen, and I expect all will end at well over £100. There are also not many different models, a few HD7s, one or two others, but most are not listed. Also the sim only contracts are barely cheaper them the ones with the phones, the major difference is that the contracts are shorter. Do that negates the cost savings from buying second hand.

At the very list 2nd Gen devices (ship with Mango) will get a one form of the update. Can't say i'm as sure about 1st Gen devices though. However i'd imagine MS wants to reward their loyal users (1st Gen owners) so they may also get a toned down version of the update too.

bbobeckyj said:
We do have craigslist, but it's not anywhere near the same size as the US site, it's next to useless outside of the major urban areas like London. eBay is more popular and even that has very few WP7 items for sale. The ones on sale are still quite expensive, I'm watching less than ten, all first gen, and I expect all will end at well over £100. There are also not many different models, a few HD7s, one or two others, but most are not listed. Also the sim only contracts are barely cheaper them the ones with the phones, the major difference is that the contracts are shorter. Do that negates the cost savings from buying second hand.
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Understood, good info here- thanked

I'm more worried about something else. What will happen if Microsoft puts out an anti piracy software like Windows advantage, and every flashed device, (caused by update fails, or theetering needs) will be banned or simply not updated?? the most of people, who flashed their devices, don't have a backup of their original rom.... I'm really worried about this, I hate to hack my phone to get it work proper!!!

XxAndrexX said:
I'm more worried about something else. What will happen if Microsoft puts out an anti piracy software like Windows advantage, and every flashed device, (caused by update fails, or theetering needs) will be banned or simply not updated?? the most of people, who flashed their devices, don't have a backup of their original rom.... I'm really worried about this, I hate to hack my phone to get it work proper!!!
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don't worry, there is no benefit to doing that. all it would do is cause terribly bad publicity, and millions of customer dissupport calls.

XxAndrexX said:
I'm more worried about something else. What will happen if Microsoft puts out an anti piracy software like Windows advantage, and every flashed device, (caused by update fails, or theetering needs) will be banned or simply not updated?? the most of people, who flashed their devices, don't have a backup of their original rom.... I'm really worried about this, I hate to hack my phone to get it work proper!!!
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Click to collapse
there already is a form of this, but its only triggered when it's detected that WP is being installed on a device it wasn't designed for. Like an android or WM device for example and the very early builds did encounter it.

A major MAJOR advantage WP7 has over Android is not being fragmented. Why would they throw that away? That seems stupid.
Sent from my SGH-I897