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So, a couple of people on IRC (myself included) noticed that we couldn't access the Paid Software board. Is there some sort of restriction on entering it?
+1
50+ posts and a years membership for creating a thread.
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face.....
Throwing the baby out with the bathwater...
I
conantroutman said:
50+ posts and a years membership for creating a thread.
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face.....
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QUOTE: 50+ posts and a years membership for creating a thread.
I am not understanding what has happened with access to the Paid Software forum at all! I noticed yesterday that I had lost access to be able to read the Paid Software forum. I contacted a mod, thinking I had somehow gotten banned, even though I have never posted in that forum. I was told that too many users with less than 50 posts/1 year tenure were posting in that forum, so the access has been changed...
What am I missing here? Because other members have been posting in that forum when they shouldn't, I can no longer even read that forum? This makes ABSOLUTELY no sense to me! Can't users be restricted from posting in a forum if they don't meet the requirements? Because SOME members have been abusing that forum, ALL members with less than 50 posts and one year membership are now blocked from even READING that forum? (Or have to log out to do so).
I don't understand how this serves anybody...
rsngfrce said:
I
QUOTE: 50+ posts and a years membership for creating a thread.
I am not understanding what has happened with access to the Paid Software forum at all! I noticed yesterday that I had lost access to be able to read the Paid Software forum. I contacted a mod, thinking I had somehow gotten banned, even though I have never posted in that forum. I was told that too many users with less than 50 posts/1 year tenure were posting in that forum, so the access has been changed...
What am I missing here? Because other members have been posting in that forum when they shouldn't, I can no longer even read that forum? This makes ABSOLUTELY no sense to me! Can't users be restricted from posting in a forum if they don't meet the requirements? Because SOME members have been abusing that forum, ALL members with less than 50 posts and one year membership are now blocked from even READING that forum? (Or have to log out to do so).
I don't understand how this serves anybody...
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There was a change made to the Paid Apps forum yesterday to restrict people not meeting the defined requirements from creating new threads. People didn't read, and we got tired of constantly removing these threads.
However, nobody should be restricted from viewing the forum or replying to existing threads. I will follow up with the server admin to see what's going on with it.
NotATreoFan said:
There was a change made to the Paid Apps forum yesterday to restrict people not meeting the defined requirements from creating new threads. People didn't read, and we got tired of constantly removing these threads.
However, nobody should be restricted from viewing the forum or replying to existing threads. I will follow up with the server admin to see what's going on with it.
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Way ahead of you....
Sent from my Xoom using xda premium
I was wondering why I couldn't view it
I just figured there had been a problem along the way somewhere.
NotATreoFan said:
There was a change made to the Paid Apps forum yesterday to restrict people not meeting the defined requirements from creating new threads. People didn't read, and we got tired of constantly removing these threads.
However, nobody should be restricted from viewing the forum or replying to existing threads. I will follow up with the server admin to see what's going on with it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for helping with this issue.
Whoops - that was my mistake. Accidentally restricted access to the entire forum instead of just for creating a thread. I've fixed it now, so you can now all view that forum. Please accept my apologies.
Please let me know if you still have any issue accessing that forum.
Thanks for fixing that. A quick logout and login and now I can view it again :thumbup:
Sent from my Paranoid S2...
Who's talking about me
Thanks for fixing this and sorry if I over-reacted a bit, but both 'official' responses I had seen regarding this seemed to indicate that read access HAD been removed (probably due to misunderstanding). :thumbup:
Hello fellow XDA-Users,
I have been a member of this forum for quite some time now, and currently spend my time in the Optimus 2X section.
People from there might recognize me from my guide on how to build cyanogenmod7 from source and some bits and pieces
from the O2X section.
Some of you might know, that LG delayed the update for this phone quite a bit, which brings me to the purpose of this
thread: The amount of spam and Off-Topic in the general section as well as the development section has blown up
insanely over the last 2-3 months, and this has caused a lot of tension between users and mods, among users and of course
users and devs. While, in case of the general section, this might be bearable, it is not for the dev section, since the real
devs can't work properly because all the useful information gets buried under the same questions and off-topic again and again.
Just recently, a mod was required to close a thread containing bleeding edge information and made it clear that he had no
intention of reopening it again.
I have spent a lot of time thinking about this, and I want to dump my thoughts for a solution in this thread. While
I don't know to which degree these can be implemented or if they might contradict the philosphy or user-rights of XDA,
I still want to post them. These ideas apply first and foremost to the dev section. I see the dev section as a read-only
section for anyone that doesn't have anything to contribute towards the development, no matter how long he has been
here or how many posts he already made. Therefore I propose the following mechanics to keep the dev sections clear of Spam.
Allow only recognized developers, contributors and the other verified ranks in the forums to start threads in the dev section.
This prevents off topic threads from being created in the first place. If someone new really wants to start a new thread because
he really has something useful to share, I imagine some sort of verification process where users can submit their threads and
moderators, or maybe even the parties allowed to post already, to review and approve the topics. This will create additional workload
on the moderators, but I believe it won't be that much more compared to the endless reports they are receiving right now. Also, allowing
a larger base of users (recognized contributors/developers) to approve the topics will reduce the workload even further.
To prevent the spamming of existing threads, apply the same strategy as mentioned above with the following changes:
For a specific threads, the thread starter (and possibly a list of users defined by the thread starter) can either approve single
posts or users in general to being able to post in the thread. The user, after being approved, will be able to post freely in the
thread, or maybe even in all threads by the approving thread starter.
I know these are very strict rules, but since they are only applied to the dev sections, I think they are worth considering, since it
will reduce all posts made in this section to those really dealing with dev stuff. Like I already mentioned, it may increase the workload
on whatever mods/users will have to approve. This gave life to my idea of expanding this userbase to the recognized developers/contributors
as well.
I see that my concept is anything but precisely laid out, but I think it represents a good base to create a system, that will make the
dev sections of this forum what they used to be: A place where developers can develop without having to read through pages of spam and
off topic and thus be more productive and less pissed off. The approval also puts another step into the process of thread/post creation
that might make users reconsider if they really want to post or perform a simple search first.
Thanks for your time!
Also, in order for this thread to be recognized, please give it a good rating. Thank you.
aMpeX
edit: Just to make myself clear again, this approach is far from perfect, but I believe with some input and discussion, we can make it so.
Please feel free to post your opinions, corrections or extensions to this idea.
I will try to collect some ideas from the discussion to summarize it here:
Inspired by anasdcool71's post:
Give OPs the opportunity to decide whether they want to moderate their thread, or accept any comment that is made during thread creation
by ticking a checkbox for example.
Hear, hear. I have said almost exactly the same thing myself before now and couldn't agree more with your thoughts. It's not an ideal solution, but maybe XDA need to take an uber-strict approach to stop this destruction by its own users.
this topic needs ofc a lot of discussion, expecially since i know neither about the capabilities of the code nor how the owners of XDA want to approach it.
I feel by starting this discussion we can iron out a system that works.
I feel that there is simply no other solution than being a little strict on the dev sections. Users still have enough room to post in the other sections, but in the dev sections, where all the magic happens, this is not helping at all, so I think it makes sense restricting these sections in that manner.
The 2 features are quite good, but still there are certain restrictions.
For the 1st point :-
You said that RCs, RDs and other verified ranks should be allowed to create a thread. Well, most RCs have been given the rank because of their polite and courteous nature throughout the site, and some of their work on guides, ROMs and kernels. RDs are kinda the same, just that their work is an expert one. So basically Senior Members or Members create threads for their ROMs and kernels in the dev section, and then if their work is good enough, they are appointed as RCs and RDs as per the requirement. So this feature cannot extend to only RCs and RDs as it may block the opportunities of other members to become one. Even if a Senior Member is allowed in this feature to create a thread, many good rom devs, who might be new to XDA, may feel the frustration to complete not 10, but 100 posts!
For the 2nd point :-
The OP of the thread might not know the user himself so he might not choose users correctly. Some users holding only the Junior Member or Member title might know a lot of info about that particular rom/kernel. Furthermore, this feature will really prove tiresome for the OP as there will be a lot of users waiting for his/her approval. And as far as the case for spam goes, the OP may inform the particular mod to remove the posts.
anasdcool71 said:
The 2 features are quite good, but still there are certain restrictions.
For the 1st point :-
You said that RCs, RDs and other verified ranks should be allowed to create a thread. Well, most RCs have been given the rank because of their polite and courteous nature throughout the site, and some of their work on guides, ROMs and kernels. RDs are kinda the same, just that their work is an expert one. So basically Senior Members or Members create threads for their ROMs and kernels in the dev section, and then if their work is good enough, they are appointed as RCs and RDs as per the requirement. So this feature cannot extend to only RCs and RDs as it may block the opportunities of other members to become one. Even if a Senior Member is allowed in this feature to create a thread, many good rom devs, who might be new to XDA, may feel the frustration to complete not 10, but 100 posts!
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I know this approach wasn't the best. My chain of thaught was simply to try to restrict the userbase that can start a thread. To enable non RDs and RCs to start threads, I included the idea of an approval by either MODs and/or RDs and RCs. After a user has been approved once, he retains the right to start threads and post in the dev section.
I guess my bigger picture is to build a welldefined group of users allowed to post in the dev section, and also easen the way for this group to include new members, since I believe creating a new verified group and manage applications is just too much work.
anasdcool71 said:
For the 2nd point :-
The OP of the thread might not know the user himself so he might not choose users correctly. Some users holding only the Junior Member or Member title might know a lot of info about that particular rom/kernel. Furthermore, this feature will really prove tiresome for the OP as there will be a lot of users waiting for his/her approval.
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This is also a weak point of my proposition, my idea was to provide some sort of inbox where OPs can see the posts submitted and simply approve the ones he deems fit, thereby weeding out the useless information and SPAM. It is a lot of work ofc, but I, for one, would prefer a clean and moderated dev thread over one bloated with Spam.
Maybe one could let the OP decide which model he wants his thread to follow by, by simply ticking a checkbox during thread creation.
Interesting idea.
I believe I've brought up all of the above suggestions at some point or another (not dismissing or anything, just I have looked into this for a long period of time, several years now in fact!)
I'll try to summarise the benefits and disadvantages of each key suggestion:
1) Allow only "Recognized *" and above to make new threads in dev.
I'd love nothing more than this... The trouble is users wouldn't want it! They will complain if we implement this, since not every developer on XDA is an RD... Some may not have applied, some may have applied but not had it processed yet. Others may have applied and been accepted (but we only add the users to the RD group once per month to reduce time spent on it), and some may have been rejected for not meeting the criteria.
This would end up upsetting more people than it would benefit, causing more arguing and bickering from them
2) Restrict who can post in a thread.
This is what we already aim to do with the 10 post rule. The trouble is that if we raise it, it keeps out genuine contributors. If we lower it, we get crap through. Right now, we think 10 is about the optimum, but that's not to say we're not adverse to ever changing it if needed.
The issue with giving the OP control over who can post is that some people would abuse this. For example, I don't imagine many devs who would "approve" posts critical of their ROM, or giving negative feedback on it. Part of the way XDA works is it ensures that every thread is outwith the control of its owner, so feedback isn't being hidden or removed because it isn't agreed with by the OP of the thread. That's why XDA doesn't follow the trend of a few other sites to give thread owners moderator abilities in their own threads.
We've got a team of mods who are impartial and can deal with issues without considering if a post is "beneficial" to user perception of the developer or not (like a dev would do if he was approving posts).
We do constantly try to think of new ways to solve these problems, and you've given me a few new ones to think about
Thanks
maybe then we should focus on the part of my idea that easens the entry into the group of users that are allowed to posts, not necesarily tieing it to the RC RD status, but unblocking the restrictions individually and extending the committee to administer these admissions from MODs and Admins to RD/RCs.
This would require a one-time effort by new devs, submitting their new ROM/thread to the dev sections, and having it approved by aforementioned group.
pulser_g2 said:
2) Restrict who can post in a thread.
This is what we already aim to do with the 10 post rule. The trouble is that if we raise it, it keeps out genuine contributors. If we lower it, we get crap through. Right now, we think 10 is about the optimum, but that's not to say we're not adverse to ever changing it if needed.
The issue with giving the OP control over who can post is that some people would abuse this. For example, I don't imagine many devs who would "approve" posts critical of their ROM, or giving negative feedback on it. Part of the way XDA works is it ensures that every thread is outwith the control of its owner, so feedback isn't being hidden or removed because it isn't agreed with by the OP of the thread. That's why XDA doesn't follow the trend of a few other sites to give thread owners moderator abilities in their own threads.
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I agree totally about the 10 post limit.. As i have seen many examples of the spam/useless post by newbies/noobs who post in dev section... As our samsung galaxy y duos dev section when created had not got this restriction on it (just an accidental miss i feel).. but its corrected now.. so i have seen how worse it may get if this limit is revoked.. and i have been thinking of an idea as many times i have come across new users complaining that they know about android stuff and they wanted to help dev in development and by the time they complete 10 useful post routine valuable time will be wasted etc... So i thought of this idea when i read the op's message in this thread...
How about providing OP a option to exclude a newbie member who has not made a single post yet to make posts in dev section..? So that if the dev feels/knows the user will be good for his thread and he can contribute to development?
and lets also put another rule to keep spammers away.. as there is a loop hole in my suggestion.. which is when a spammer may create 2 accounts and in one account he will obtain 10 posts and create a thread in dev section.. then spam the thread with another account by making him exception..
So we can add this option to OP of the thread only if the thread has been say one month / one week old... as this will make sure that the thread is not created for spamming and thus it also ensures actual development is going on in the thread and the dev is known.. this exclusion is only for that thread on dev sub forum.. i dont know this may be a too much workload on server..
I was suggesting this exclusion method because i have seen around 5-10 members who PM me whenever they have some issue with my kernel or any other rom related to my device for that matter... i am happy and i have no issues to help them at all.. i have also kindly suggested them to make 10 valuable/useful posts in Q & A section and post in my threads instead of M as it might help other users too who may have same issue/doubt.. but i really cant say it directly into their faces and they may not understand my point ... so i have been interacting with such users through PM and i feel they should have interacted more with forums instead of just one person.. and there might be many others who might have contacting through PM only..
So please consider this..
Also this really is a great suggestion too...
anasdcool71 said:
@pulser_g2 - The if-else statement in your sig is really great. :good:
And I've come up with a request. I've seen that many new users don't actually know/get the reason behind the 10-post limit. I'm not talking anything particularly about spammers, but there are some good users who just don't know the reason. I've just seen so many posts in so many threads saying "this 10-post limit is so frustrating","i have to PM the dev","i can't even report a bug",etc. Not one or two or 10, but many posts like this. So my request was that they'd be directed to that thread "10-post count limit in development fora", after they register. I'm sure many of them will understand. After all, it isn't that hard to get to 10 posts.
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It's an eternal problem than,us, Admins,Mods and all Recognized Tribe against which we are constantly fighting.
In the RC'stribe, we try to think and are trying to find solutions that would enable to reduce the number of useless posts.
I says reduce, cause we can't delete all of these posts.
But the real problem, it's a mentality problem due to Internet.
Actually, with Internet, people can and wanting all, now and quickly. I'm writing a question, I want my answer now!
A large majority of users don't take the time for read and seek. They want everything quickly and now.
And against this fact, we cannot fight!!
For whoever mentioned it, the ten post message does link and explain why... But nobody reads it...
pulser_g2 said:
For whoever mentioned it, the ten post message does link and explain why... But nobody reads it...
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Why ? I don't understand what you mean exactly
I have wrote a post on RC chat about this problem and send the link
philos64 said:
Why ? I don't understand what you mean exactly
I have wrote a post on RC chat about this problem and send the link
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i think he means the 10 post limit sticky thread is already linked and also its explained why its there but still no new user reads it..
philos64 said:
Why ? I don't understand what you mean exactly
I have wrote a post on RC chat about this problem and send the link
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I mean that someone mentioned perhaps making it clearer to users why they can't post etc...
I replied to say that the message already explains this and links them to a thread with information
pulser_g2 said:
I mean that someone mentioned perhaps making it clearer to users why they can't post etc...
I replied to say that the message already explains this and links them to a thread with information
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Sorry @pulser_g2
But I understand what you mean
It's better clear. Thanks
Moderators: I understand that this post is in the wrong forum, yet there doesn't seem to be a "XDA feedback" forum so I have no idea what the proper location is. I hope that a helpful moderator will move it to a proper location AND let me know where that location is.
XDA has changed quite a bit over the years. It used to be a "developer" forum. These days, not so much. In fact, and this is my problem, it almost feels anti-developer these days. If that's what XDA wants, great. If not, please take the time to read this message written by a developer.
I've been around XDA for a very long time. I've been a programmer for a much longer time. I think it's important to at least mention my professional qualifications, as this is (or was?) a DEVELOPERS forum, and I've been doing development for over 20 years. Going back only 10 years, I worked for Electronic Arts developing video games for both PC's and consoles. Unlike development here, game development has to be done right the FIRST time. There's no way to patch a game burned on to a cDROM for a console such as the original playstation, nor a way to fix a Nintendo64 cartrigde. (BTW, that was really a "rom" - not the firmware people call "roms" here on XDA.) I've also done quite a bit of development in various Windows CE platforms, including PocketPC (when I first started with XDA!) My current job has me doing (among other things) development on iOS, Android, and Windows Mobile. It's a very safe assumption that I'm extremely fluent with development on handheld devices.
Of course, as a hobby, I mostly work with Android these days. I've shared my work with people on XDA and rootzwiki, and when the changes could be applied to AOSP, I've shared them with CM and AOKP projects - as well as directly with Google via their gerrit system.
No, I don't have a "recognized developer" tag on XDA. I've never actually applied for it and currently have no interest in doing so. Part of my reason for that decision is that I feel XDA has given that tag out too freely. They've given it to people who don't actually do development, but just "kang" other people's work in order to collection donations. (I also don't accept donations, instead prefering people to send that money to real charities.) That's a different subject...
So, the purpose of this (already rambling) post is to try and give some feedback on the "current state" of XDA in general, of some of the moderators in particular, and to ask for a clear, consistent and easily understood set of guidelines.
I'm an engineer, and if the rules are fuzzy, it's impossible to clearly follow them.
So, here we go...
For any given phone model, there is a "general" subforum that is used for threads like "Post pictures of your phone" and "Where to buy this phone." Then there's a Q&A subforum that, I think, is where newbies are told to go to ask questions (and then other newbies respond with nasty replies.) There's a "development" subforum that, despite its name, is not to discuss development, but apparently only to post finished things. What those "things" are is a subject of debate, and I've heard many different things from different moderators. There might be an "original development" subforum which, I think, is used for development done from source (as opposed to modifying stock firmware?) Finally, a "themes and apps" subforum for theming existing work and misc applications.
There really is no place to discuss DEVELOPMENT for a device. Really, talking about the IO registers for a given device doesn't belong in the same place as "post pictures of your phone", and gets lost in the newbie questions in the Q&A subforum. Where does a developer discuss development for a specific platform? There's also no good place to share methods for doing development. For example, what's the best subforum for "HOWTO configure a N7100 kernel to work with stock firmware"? How about a thread that discusses how to modify the CSC files on a samsung firmware to enable features hidden by AT&T?
This all leads me back to the existing "development" subforum. At least for samsung devices, these generally end up being like an app-store for themed stock firmwares. (I refuse to call it a ROM when it's not "read-only.") There isn't any clear rule on what, exactly, is put in this subforum. One moderator posted "For something you CREATED." Well, not a single poster on XDA created touchwiz - they only modify it. Another moderator said "The only thing in Development will be true development. Roms and kernels." Well, tweaking touchwiz isn't really "true" development, is it?
Taking those two posts together, and combining with the current reality (at least in the samsung device forums), it appears that the "development" forum is used for modified stock firmware. However, at what level? I've seen people deodex a touchwiz stock firmware, change the "build.prop" and post it in development. Others take that same deodex'd firmware, modifying a couple of apk's, and post that there. Is this "development?" If so, what about if the person only posted the apk's that they modified without forcing the users to take the entire package? I've seen this frequenty in the development forum, but apparently this is a case where some moderators have different rules than others. From a DEVELOPER point of view, the latter is better as it gives people the chance to have the modifications they want and not the ones they don't want.
You see, the "rules" are vague.
There needs to be a clear and precise set of guidelines on what these subforums are for - and those guidelines posted in the general forum rules where everyone can read them. As well, I think it would help prevent the issue of each moderator having a different interpretation of what post belongs in what forum. Oh, and if someone actually does this, please include a note telling developers where they are allowed to discuss development.
That leads, of course, to the current XDA moderators. Honestly, there are too many and they apparently aren't given clear guidance.
I'm playing around with the AT&T Note2, and I think there are currently 5-7 active moderators each enforcing their own interpretation of the rules in that forum. As a user of the forum, I've learned to expect that each moderator has a different style and different view of the rules, but at least one of those moderators isn't even consistent in his own enforcement. If two threads are nearly identical, and one is closed for "meaningless content", why isn't the other one also closed? The best part was when I sent a PRIVATE message to that moderator pointing this out, the response I got was "Sir, your thoughts should be kept to yourself." As well, this moderator informed me that "the report system on XDA is not for making a statement and or to submit feedback." (Okay... that's a new rule.) I think it's probably significant that this particular moderator seems to have something personal against me. Not sure what or why. Honestly, at this point, I don't even care why.
So, here I am as a developer. I'm on a forum called "xda-developers" (And I've been here for over 6 years.) However, I feel at this point that this "developers" forum is no longer targeting developers. In fact, it appears to be chasing them away. I've had development discussion threads shut down by non-developer moderators. I've had my threads where I share my development work moved around (out of "development".) and been told by that moderator to keep my feedback to myself. (That's from a PRIVATE MESSAGE!!!!)
Why are forums like "rootzwiki" becoming so popular? Perhaps it's due to the lack of developer friendliness here on XDA.
Personally, I REALLY hate to see XDA going this way. I've been here a long time and while I have no hope of seeing it be the way it once was, it can still be a development forum. Why isn't it?
Yes, this message is being written in response to something that happened. However, that was only the "straw that broke the camels back" so to speak. This is something that's been building up for at least a year.
For now, I've pulled my contributions for the AT&T note2 down from XDA. At this point, I'm not even sure which location they should be posted in (and I have moderators telling me different things.) I'd pull down my other stuff from other devices, but most are out of date by now, so there's really no point.
As well, I have a specific moderator in this set of forums who seems to have an issue with me personally. Right now, I need to back away and cool off.
Gary - there IS an XDA general discussion forum that you apparently missed - http://forum.xda-developers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=263
As to the RD tag - if you recall my currently ongoing G+ saga, I did mention that the RD program had some serious issues at the end of 2011. That was why the ERD program was created, and also why the rules for becoming an RD were made stricter/clearer about a month ago. (With the addition of RC/RT tiers, it's easier to "raise the bar" for RD since there are now lower titles available to those who don't quite make the cut.)
I think some aspects of XDA's process might need to be better documented/clearer - for example, I wasn't even aware of the "Moderator Committee" account until today. I knew there WAS a Moderator Committee, but didn't know exactly who was on it, and that there was a "catchall" account for PMing them all simultaneously.
Unfortunately, I think the rules are indeed unclear in terms of, for example, single-APK modifications. In the I9100 forums, these seem to be split 50/50 between "Themes and Apps" and "Development" - The defining line for some of these is so vague that usually, the moderators let it go unless it's obvious. For example, if you just replaced graphics assets in something, it obviously belongs in "Themes and Apps". If you did smali hacks - it's borderline. In my opinion, if you just post a smali-hacked APK, it goes in T&A. If you actually documented the process for performing the modification so others could apply it to different devices/firmware images, then it probably is justified as "Development". Knowing your past work and ethics, I'm assuming your modifications were from the latter category, however I currently can't review them.
Damn, you're right - I did miss that forum. Well, between the PM I sent to "moderator committee" and its somewhat obvious location here, I'm sure it'll get moved soon (and I'm good with that.)
As for RD - I'll save that for another day.
Take care
Gary
I've moved this thread into the General 'General' section. Gary has some good points, I also think it's strange that development, real development, discussions have no real place other than General, where good work can easily get lost - however, if you have an issue with a moderator you need to take that up with the moderator - you can, of course, report your issues to the Moderator Committee as Entropy has mentioned.
reinbeau said:
I've moved this thread into the General 'General' section. Gary has some good points, I also think it's strange that development, real development, discussions have no real place other than General, where good work can easily get lost - however, if you have an issue with a moderator you need to take that up with the moderator - you can, of course, report your issues to the Moderator Committee as Entropy has mentioned.
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Ann, I TRIED taking it up with that moderator in a private message and was ripped by that person for doing so. I was told to keep my thoughts to myself and that I wasn't supposed to submit feedback.
garyd9 said:
Ann, I TRIED taking it up with that moderator in a private message and was ripped by that person for doing so. I was told to keep my thoughts to myself and that I wasn't supposed to submit feedback.
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THAT particular issue, in my opinion, was uncalled for. (uncalled for from the Moderator you tried to work things out with, not uncalled for from you.)
Thank you for the second move. I just hope it's read by the proper people.
Take care
Gary
The correct process is to direct this sort of thing to the Moderator Committee. Especially make sure to include the PM from the FSM.
jerdog said:
Especially make sure to include the PM from the FSM.
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Pardon my ignorance... "FSM"?
Would it be helpful to post the pmid's of the PM's sent back and forth?
(If I post the pmid's in this thread, can a moderator access them but not anyone else? I don't think it'd be appropriate to post the contents of all the PM's in a public location. I've also very carefully avoiding calling out the name of the moderator.)
Also, the issue that that moderator is only a very small part of the overall thing. If there were CLEAR rules to begin with, I think there'd be less of an issue with specific moderators.
Gary, please either forward your concerns about specific moderators to myself or another member of the moderator committee via pm when you have the chance.
Although it sometimes might not seem like it I can assure you that we intend to keep xda as developer orientated as we possibly can, however we cannot do that without feedback from people such as yourself.
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face.....
Sorry, I see you've already sent a pm to the mod committee account. Disregard my last post. Well, the first part anyway.....
That's what I get for skimming the thread.....
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face.....
I've sent you a PM, conantroutman. If there's anything else I can do for that particular issue, please let me know.
In my post, I mentioned the inconsistency of the moderating and dealing with the so-called "Development" subforums. I had a post moved out of that subforum and was told (among other things) that "The only thing in Development will be true development. Roms and kernels."
Since that time, a few other threads have been posted in there.
One is nothing more than a deodex of the stock firmware. No "development" in running a deodex script. (I had to deodex the stuff I posted before working on it... no effort there.)
Another is (and this is some high end "development") an empty edify zip file. I'm serious. Someone made a generic .zip file that has nothing in the /system directory, but will copy everything from that (empty) directory to the device system directory.
Finally, there's a thread with modem dumps. Seriously, a "development" subforum thread containing dumps of a "dd" command.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1986556
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1986645
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1986480
If I'm going to be attacked and have my threads moved when they involve actual development effort (even if it's only a single apk), then I don't see how purely stock stuff or empty shells are permitted. At least what I posted changes the behavior of the device when installed.
I'm not even sure who or what to blame for this. Is it that a specific moderator was attacking my post? Was it that each moderator has a different idea of what goes where? Is it that the rules are so vague that it's perfectly reasonable for a moderator to roll dice to decide if a thread should be moved?
This message isn't to attack the posts above. Personally, I think the development subforum is a reasonable place for at least the first two. (The modem dumps should probably be a sticky in the general subforum based on what I've seen in the past.) However, based on the guidelines quoted to me by moderators of XDA, none of this stuff should be in there.
I really hope this gets addressed.
Gary
Some rather interesting points being made here which I think we, XDA, should take on board. We obviously want XDA to be easy to navigate through, plus we also want it to be easy for people to contact us (The MC) amongst others
Personally, I thought it was rather easy and straight forward, but then again I've been here for years, it may not be so easy for others, especially new users
I'm going to create a new thread in the "About XDA" forum asking for users to give feedback or recommendations on site layout, contacts, procedures etc?
I hope you add any thoughts you may have
Rick
Moderator Committee
Here's the kinds of things that this leads to:
I'd like to post a thread trying to document and catalog the CSC variables in a samsung stock firmware, how to change them, and the impacts of changing them. This single set of variables can change nearly any aspect of a phone from what settings are available for the user to what color scheme the stock email app uses.
Which subforum does it get put in? Its certainly targeted for development purposes. Does it get put into "general" (and get lost in the clutter of "Post pictures you take with your phone")? It's certainly not a theme. I have NO IDEA the proper place to put this, and now I wonder if it's easier to just not contribute to XDA than to waste my time trying to navigate the mess.
This one amuses me: There are now SEVERAL threads in that development subforum I had my stuff moved from that are nearly identical to a post I made (and which was moved out of dev.) I mentioned these via PM to one of the moderators who supported moving my stuff before. He responded that he'd look into those new posts last night. Yet, they (and many more) are still there without being moved.
What message should I take from that?
I think you're touching on one of those issues where XDA's growth has caused difficulties to manage things, and an ideal solution has yet to be determined.
For example, on the topics of how certain types of development discussion (like figuring out a register map) might not be considered "development" in the current rules even though they should be - If you don't use the current rules, what DO you use? If you're not careful, you wind up with Development subsections cluttered with threads of "Let's fix X" (even though we have no clue how) - Some users consider that "development" even if they're in WAY above their heads and the thread has zero actual development.
It helps when moderators for a forum are developers themselves. It helps them make those "grey area" calls - as a result the I9100 forums are in pretty good shape because a number of the I9100 moderators were experienced developers, and a few senior moderators/admins owned the I9100 and hence hung out in those forums. (For example: Pulser). But as XDA grows, it's harder to get FSMs that have development experience for all forums, without overloading them and frying their brains.
What's the answer? I don't know - but please keep in mind that unfortunately, for some of these, there is no easy answer.
BTW, there is some planned rework for organization of the "Development" sections that was mentioned in the "Future" part of Jerdog's "XDA: Past, Present, and Future" presentation at BABBQ. Unfortunately, issues with the conference center network prevented the talk from being recorded/streamed as was originally planned. BTW, this is one reason I think you should apply for RD status - some issues like this are things that do get discussed in the RD forums.
As to your example of CSC modification - I think a comprehensive guide for this WOULD be highly useful. The problem is, you know that within days, someone will see that and throw up a "hey everyone, throw this **** in your build.prop and it'll be AWESUM!!1!!!1!1!" thread... A detailed technical analysis of each entry and what it does would be something I'd consider "development" especially if some research needed to be done (including baksmali'ing, etc.) to determine something's true function - but just "OMG THIS WILL MAKE UR PHONE AWESUM!!11!!!!" threads wouldn't be... And that's the problem, how do you let the former reside in Development without the latter creeping in? Decisions like that are going to be difficult for many moderators.
Entropy512 said:
And that's the problem, how do you let the former reside in Development without the latter creeping in? Decisions like that are going to be difficult for many moderators.
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Perhaps some form of OP moderated post? Any replies are reviewed by the OP before being visible. Sadly, I don't think XDA's forum software supports this type of thing.
As an alternative, a thread locked to all but the OP. The person who started the thread states that comments/additions should be sent via PM and will be added if deemed appropriate. (I read somewhere that RD's can moderate their own threads... if true, that might be the perfect solution.)
There'd still need to be some moderation, as surely as I write this, you'll have certain people starting those types of threads everyplace one doesn't already exist regardless of their own ability to test things, etc. (Just look at how any time a new device section is added even weeks before anyone has the device, there are instantly "post your homescreens", "guide to kernels/roms" and other things the mods only allow one of.)
Oh, and Entropy512... sorry about trying to give you more work in that other thread that Fallen Spartan started.
Entropy512 said:
BTW, this is one reason I think you should apply for RD status - some issues like this are things that do get discussed in the RD forums.
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Heh - at this point, I doubt that would happen. In the past 2 days, I've managed to get quite a few people on XDA pissed at me. It's not that I've tried to, just that I got to the mental point of speaking "plainly" instead of trying to be politically correct.
As well, and to be completely fair, I haven't been posting most of my code contributions here on XDA lately. Then again, there's no good place to post things like "add support for sms messaging over bluetooth" on XDA. It's not product by itself, but something that needs to be compiled into a larger project - hence there's no home for it here.
(I'm (perhaps incorrectly assuming that the RD program on XDA depends on a certain number of things posted here on XDA.)
Hi Gary,
First of all, I'd just like to say that I've read through your posts in this thread and the "feedback/ recommendations for xda" thread and you've had some great thoughts and ideas which I reckon could definitely improve certain aspects of this site. The main problem just seems to be putting it into action and making sure the ides stays as true as possible to what it's meant to be, rather than filter off into something which will fizzle out and have nothing more mentioned about it.
Now onto the suggestion of OP moderated posts.
While this could be a great idea on other forums, I don't really think it's feasible here on XDA.
If a thread is at the stage where it may be needed for the OP to review what posts are allowed, that is the exact same moment when that idea would simply become unmanageable.
I think this because no matter what the persons "level" on XDA is, there would be too many posts to review to give them time to do anything else. This is especially true for those who are developers, not just RDs.
As a result of it being too much for them to handle, things would revert back to the system currently in place. We've then gained nothing.
The same would also ring true if OPs would need to add posts themselves, out of all the PMs they'd received. Even if the OP of a thread was happy to wade through all the PMs they receive, it's quite easy to accidentally miss some messages.
Even mods have missed a message of mine at times simply because they have loads come through. The OP would surely have even more PMs come through meaning that loads more messages could be skipped by accident.
And yes, RDs can moderate their own threads but only to the extent of closing/reopening it. They can't remove comments like moderators can.
James
''Absolute power corrupts absolutely, but absolute powerlessness does the same''
After reading a few threads and comments from our members I thought it may be worthwhile to create a Feedback, Recommendations or Idea's thread for XDA. We want to improve our forum for developers and the normal users.
So, rather than sending a PM to a Moderator, please feel free to leave any feedback or idea's you may have to improve XDA, so we can discuss them properly, openly, with the plan to hopefully implement the ideas which are good.
It's sole purpose is to improve XDA and collect your thoughts and idea's.
We will all be monitoring this thread, and someone will hopefully reply without much delay.
Thanks
Rick
Moderator/Developer Committee
Edits done by Clark Joseph Kent to better support XDA.
XDA-Developers needs to be more about developers
While I see that time and users have made XDA less about development and more about user support, I think XDA has gone too far in that direction.
Developers need a place to DISCUSS development.
The "General" subforums are too overwhelmed with threads like "Post pictures of your phone", "list of threads linked from other places" and other random "general user" stuff.
The "Q&A" subforums are now a place where moderators chase newbies to. The most technical question you might find in the Q&A section these days is "I just bricked my phone, what do I do?" (Usually, the answers are either making fun of the OP or telling him/her to search.)
The "Development" subforums, which seems like a logical place to discuss development, is now reserved for people to post finish products only and beg for donations - It's the XDA version of the "app store." There's no actual "development" discussion allowed.
Here's what we don't have anymore (but desperately need):
A place where a kernel developer could start a thread discussing the pitfalls of turning off processor cores on a particular device when the device is idle. That would likely lead into a discussion on possible ways to optimize the IN/OUT code for the cores, which would actually *gasp* promote development.
A place where a person might post a "HOW TO" document describing how to modify a stock firmware for a specific device to override carrier controlled lock downs. (For example, editing the CSC for a samsung device.)
A place for development related DISCUSSION - not just a subform for "I cobbled together mods I copied from other people into a so-called ROM and will now beg you to donate to me and press my "thanks" button."
XDA promotes itself as a DEVELOPERS FORUM. The definition of "forum" is "A meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged." Doesn't that seem to indicate that development related discussion would be encouraged here?
(continued...)
---------- Post added at 11:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:51 AM ----------
So, the obvious question about my post above is how do you moderate a "developers discussion" subforum?
I honestly don't see a problem with that. You make posting access to that subforum by request only. The access should be granted pretty freely but with a note reminding the user that any non-development discussions will result in loss of access to those subforums. Plain and simple. Any RD's or ERD's would automatically be given access without the need to post a request.
Only developers should moderate those subforums, as the fact is that XDA has some moderators that have no clue whatsoever what "development" is.
I'd even go so far as to suggest that XDA's ERDs would be given final say in moderating those subforums. Actually, it might be a good idea to give ERDs final say in moderating all the development related forums - including the existing so-called "development" and "original development" subforums.
...
I'll have one more post to discuss the current vagueness of the rules and the random enforcement of them...
Gary, while I agree with many of your key points one I disagree with is that only elite developers (who don't have the time) are the ones who should have the 'final say' with regards to moderation, and that they are the best qualified to do so. Given a good set of rules to use as guidelines, any level headed person who is committed to helping XDA move along smoothly is qualified to be a moderator. I am not a developer, however, I've been moderating forums for years now. People are people no matter what the subject. You and I have discussed the rules, which are being worked on. I like the idea of a 'developer only', invite only forum. I think it's time to make that happen. Given that I am so not a developer, I know when I'm over my head - and we have people on the team who moderators like me can turn to. Moderators are here to help, not hinder - I think we can work this all out so the developers are happier, users learn, and moderators moderate
garyd9 said:
I'd even go so far as to suggest that XDA's ERDs would be given final say in moderating those subforums. Actually, it might be a good idea to give ERDs final say in moderating all the development related forums - including the existing so-called "development" and "original development" subforums.
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Some interesting points you've listed, which I can honestly say are being looked at, however your point above, I'm gonna have to disagree with. The ERD's are extremely busy with actual development, as are most, if not all the developers. If we where to also ask the ERDs to moderate all the development related forums, they'd have no time to develop
I didn't suggest that ERD's would be constantly moderating them - only that they'd have the opportunity (if they chose it) to be the final say. Who do you trust more to make an informed decision about what is development and what isnt':
Entropy512 or ModJohnCanBarelyRoot?
I think the ERD's are more involved (at least in reading) than many people think, and XDA should respect their knowledge and ability by giving them the option of stepping in saying that, despite what a non-developer moderator might think, this is or isn't dev related.
Anyway, it's just a suggestion.
garyd9 said:
I didn't suggest that ERD's would be constantly moderating them - only that they'd have the opportunity (if they chose it) to be the final say. Who do you trust more to make an informed decision about what is development and what isnt':
Entropy512 or ModJohnCanBarelyRoot?
I think the ERD's are more involved (at least in reading) than many people think, and XDA should respect their knowledge and ability by giving them the option of stepping in saying that, despite what a non-developer moderator might think, this is or isn't dev related.
Anyway, it's just a suggestion.
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Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. I have the utmost respect for ERD's, and RD's. I'm not a developer myself, would never claim to be, but I do try and read up on things to understand them so I can make informed decisions. But likewise, I do ask developers for advice on specific things, then learn from what I'm told. In an ideal world, we'd let ERD's have the final say, maybe even RD's, but with so many in house fights amongst so called dev's, there is the potential for abuse which is what concerns me. I cannot see ERD's doing this mind you.
Again, interesting ideas which I welcome
So on to what I'm sure will be a sore subject: Rules and moderation...
I realize that XDA has grown by leaps and bounds since I first joined. Back then, there were only a handful of people geeky enough to have smartphones. Today, they are the norm. With more users there are more devices, more forums and XDA needed more moderators. That's perfectly understandable. It's also understandable that XDA has reached into the "non-developer" pool of people for moderation help.
However, the forum rules which the moderators supposedly moderate by are too vague and really don't guide users (or moderators) in the proper way to do things. It only makes matters worse then the moderators enforce those rules in seemingly random ways. Finally, when a bad decision is made by a moderator (or a decision that a user thinks is bad), there's no documented way for a user to ask for help. "Report to moderator" is pretty useless when you're only reporting to the same person you are complaining about.
If there's a guideline, it should be shared by ALL the moderators and documented so that users can understand it. The primary location to find these rules and guidelines is a post that is stickied in every single forum/subforum here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/announcement.php?a=81 If it's not in that post, then it's fairly safe to assume that users don't know about it.
So what's wrong with those rules? Well, they are pretty vague in too many cases. Vague rules lead to different people interpreting them differently (or interpreting them selectively for different people.) Here's some examples:
"Don’t use XDA to advertise your product or service. " "Commercial advertising, advertising referral links, pay per click links and other income generating methods are forbidden. Do not use xda-developers as a means to make money." -- Yet, how many people have seen a developer clearly post (or get someone else to post on their behalf) that if people don't "donate" enough money for them to buy a device, they don't development for that device. To me, that sounds like "I'll sell my development for the cost of the device."
"Off-site downloads are permitted if the site is non-commercial and does not require registration.... but may be permitted if ... the site is a relatively small personal website without commercial advertising/links (i.e. not a competitor forum-based site with purposes and aims similar to those of XDA-Developers.com.)" -- There are literally thousands of links on this website for downloads on sammobile.com or samfirmware.com. That site requires registration, advertises, and has forums that "compete" with XDA. Yet, the links are still there.
"If you are developing something that is based on the work of another Member, you MUST first seek their permission, and you must give credit to the member whose work you used." -- I think this one depends on who is violating the rule. Apparently, if its a 15 (now 16) year old kid, it's okay. Yes, I'm bitter about this one as I have had my work used (without my permission), had reported it to moderators, was told someone would look into it, and then had the report disappear into a black hole. It only made matters worse when that same person accepted "donations" given as a result of the code stolen from me. Being I ask people to donate to a children's hospital (not to me) for my work, I feel as if my work was stolen from me, and money was stolen from a child who desperately needed medical care. There's no question as to who developed the code, as gerrit/github timedate stamps don't lie. In truth, I wouldn't have minded about this so much if the little thief forwarded the donations to a real charity. I do share my work freely, but I VERY seriously resented (and still resent) my work was used for a thief's profit. To my way of thinking, there's nothing vague about the rule here - only the lack of enforcement.
Then there's the whole thing with that types of threads go into which subforums. There's simply NO consistency with this. A perfect (and recent) example is that I posted a thread in a dev subforum containing modifications for a single stock samsung package, SecLauncher2.apk. That was pushed to apps&themes by a moderator. That same moderator, however, has permitted threads for modifying only "SystemUI.apk" and only "android.policy.jar." He's also permitted completely non-development related things such as "post modem dumps here" and "stock deodex firmware."
So, not only are the rules vague, but the moderation of the rules is so inconsistent that a user can't even look to precedent to decide what is and isn't allowed.
....
I'm going to stop here. I feel like I've started ranting, and that isn't productive. The points are valid, but discussing them has brought up things I'm (obviously) very bitter about.
Really appreciate this feedback, guys. We're going to bring it forth in our monthly call with the admins and site owner. :highfive:
What about doing a forum named like "other devices root development". There are a lot of potential devices that don't get root because they don't call the devs atraction (and some of the have locked bootloaders).
I also think that there are forums from brand new "high-tech" devices that don't get development because well, there is no development for unlocking bootloaders or doing something like root for locked bootloaders, which happens on some devices. So, again, othere devices could have their chance.
mfsr98
@garyd9, no need to be bitter, I'm actually glad to hear you views, so rant away. I created this thread for this very purpose, to hear the views of the users, to better XDA
...........................
You can lead a fool to wisdom but you can't make him think! XDA, mobile wisdom, not a n00b feeding ground!!
-gary
While I agree with some of what you have said I feel if you want strictly 100% development talk then that is reserved for the RD forum for RDs to have amongst themselves... Yes there are developers that are not RDs and to that I say they should apply to become RDs. There needs to be a place to allow users to provide feedback and suggestions on things that are developed.
Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2
sgt. slaughter said:
-gary
While I agree with some of what you have said I feel if you want strictly 100% development talk then that is reserved for the RD forum for RDs to have amongst themselves... Yes there are developers that are not RDs and to that I say they should apply to become RDs. There needs to be a place to allow users to provide feedback and suggestions on things that are developed.
Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2
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There is a place for that. The problem is there isn't a place for real development talk. Any real discussions get drowned out by inanity. I think with the influx of new people that noise to real development ratio has finally reached a tipping point. Then again, just how much input can Jon Q. Public have in development other than saying "I want this" or "How do I do that"? Those are user issues. We need to develop better developer solutions.
reinbeau said:
There is a place for that. The problem is there isn't a place for real development talk. Any real discussions get drowned out by inanity. I think with the influx of new people that noise to real development ratio has finally reached a tipping point. Then again, just how much input can Jon Q. Public have in development other than saying "I want this" or "How do I do that"? Those are user issues. We need to develop better developer solutions.
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Hence my initial suggestion, that if you want 100% dev talk take up and use the RD forum and discuss in there...
Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2
sgt. slaughter said:
Hence my initial suggestion, that if you want 100% dev talk take up and use the RD forum and discuss in there...
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Xda DEVELOPERS. Why would a site called xda DEVELOPERS push development talk off into a corner, while non development talk reigns free?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2
garyd9 said:
Xda DEVELOPERS. Why would a site called xda DEVELOPERS push development talk off into a corner, while non development talk reigns free?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2
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Adapt with the times as things change.... Change and adjusting is tough at times but if done so correctly its for the better of all those involved...
It is absolutely impossible to have purely 100% code talk in the dev sections. The size of the userbase is way too large for the mod team to regulate that.
Hence the RDs section will be best if you want no nonsense dev talk.
Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2
sgt. slaughter said:
Adapt with the times as things change.... Change and adjusting is tough at times but if done so correctly its for the better of all those involved...
...
Hence the RDs section will be best if you want no nonsense dev talk.
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You may be right, but I don't want to consider the possibility that XDA-Developers might become a non-developers forums. If your suggestion is carried out, I'd predict that it'd slowly (but surely) lose it's developer core and become more and more another "android central" or other generic handheld forum.
My reasoning is simple: XDA doesn't give birth to developers - they are born and bred before they get here. However, you're suggesting that they won't have a place to "talk shop" here unless and until they achieve RD status, which I'm assuming involves a certain application and requires that some projects have already been hawked here on XDA. I'm making some assumptions about RD here, but I think it'd be fairly safe to assume that a person can't submit a professional non-XDA resume to get it. As well, you are also always going to have some devs that simply refuse to "apply" for what they consider a "silly title." More especially those that see "ROM cooks" called RD and look the other way.
What is a real developer going to do in that case? Simple: find someplace else to talk shop.
(It's almost comical the way I talk about RD here. I've been doing professional dev for a very long, have given back to the android and ppc communities, and been an XDA member for a long time - but never bothered with RD status here when the program started. So, I honestly don't know what it might involve. I might be wrong about any type of requirements.)
I guess this question moves beyond my suggestions. I've been basing things on a developer-centric forum. That's what XDA-Developers was when I joined, and quite a few FAQ's we point users to indicate that it's still intended to be. If XDA is going to move away from that, then please disregard my suggestions.
Take care
Gary
sgt. slaughter said:
Hence my initial suggestion, that if you want 100% dev talk take up and use the RD forum and discuss in there...
Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2
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Click to collapse
Not everyone who develops is an RD - and why would you remove the ability for people to learn and share?
garyd9 said:
Xda DEVELOPERS. Why would a site called xda DEVELOPERS push development talk off into a corner, while non development talk reigns free?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2
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Click to collapse
Exactly.
It seems obvious that one specific issue that everyone agrees on is that *something* needs to be done to handle "developer discussion." While there are different opinions on the best way to do that, I haven't seen anyone post anything implying that dev's talking shop is a bad thing.
Fallen Spartan, perhaps this thread can branch that particular conversation to a separate thread? That would allow this thread to deal with the other issues without confusion.
Thanks
Gary
garyd9 said:
It seems obvious that one specific issue that everyone agrees on is that *something* needs to be done to handle "developer discussion." While there are different opinions on the best way to do that, I haven't seen anyone post anything implying that dev's talking shop is a bad thing.
Fallen Spartan, perhaps this thread can branch that particular conversation to a separate thread? That would allow this thread to deal with the other issues without confusion.
Thanks
Gary
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For the time being I'm inclined to let the discussion continue in this thread as there isn't much else being discussed here atm. If more idea's/recommendations appear, we can then create a new thread....if needed. Also, if a set way has been agreed on a particular idea/recommendation, I can create a second post updating users so its not lost within the thread
Making room for real developers again
reinbeau said:
Not everyone who develops is an RD - and why would you remove the ability for people to learn and share?
Exactly.
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Hello,
I am one of those professional developers in real life, who don't have the time to play silly points games just to get access to the developer part of a forum. So my "XDA status" is stuck at "noob", but I am really here to look for a place to share technical discussion with other developers.
Looking around (I have been lurking for years now), I think the following improved structure would be a good idea:
In each area (General, OS, device) there should be 4 development subforums rather than the current 1 or 2:
1. Firmware and theme releases.
One thread for each firmware/theme series, hosting download links in the top 3 posts, and support discussions in the rest of the thread.
For instance the Android Samsung Galaxy III "Firmware and theme releases" forum would have exactly one "Cyanogenmod" thread and at most one "Cyanogenmod kang by temasek" thread.
Real cooks can post new threads and create the first two replies in their own thread. Non-noob users can post in existing threads after the 3. post in the thread.
2. Free App releases.
One thread for each free app, hosting download links in the top 3 ports, and support discussions in the rest of the thread.
For instance the Android Free App releases forum would have exactly one "ROM Manager" thread.
Real developers can post new threads and create the first two replies in their own thread. Non-noob users can post in existing threads after the 3. post in the thread.
3. Unreleased experiments
One thread for each unreleased firmware/theme/free app, hosting only discussion of what should go into it, difficulties in making it etc. When released the thread is moved to 1 or 2 as appropriate, at the thread OPs command.
Only real cooks and real developers can post here, there is a limit on new threads per user per month depending on the posters general standing.
4. Developer to Developer
This hosts regular forum style discussion threads where developers for that target (OS/phone) can ask each other questions about technical details for the target, one thread per subject matter, no threads about specific projects. This is the place to discuss stuff like ("Which wceload variants are in which upstream firmwares" in a WM forum or "How are the GPIO pins on the SoC connected to other parts of the phone (in a phone specific forum) or "How does the foo() API work" (in an OS forum)).
Only real cooks and real developers can post here.
Determining access:
Now as to determining the "real cook" and "real developer" status of a user, there could be a quiz and a number of extrinsic tests for each OS. Quiz questions would be multiple choice that a real cook/devel would answer easily, but a poser would get wrong. Other tests could be "prove that you have a developer account on Market/AppStore/OVI/Marketplace" "Show that you can sign an empty sis/cab/etc. with a valid developer certificate" Because getting a new certificate/account for some of the platforms may no longer be possible or may be otherwise restricted, such
tests would just count as N correct quiz answers in determining the pass/fail.
To answer my question; yes, I do. I always feel lost when I come here, so for this time, I want to try something new.
1) The main issue. I recognized (unlike all other forums on the Internet), it has three, distinct "layers" with a different visual appearance depending how deep you go into levels.
Level 1: https://forum.xda-developers.com/
Take note of the distinct visual appearance.
Level 2: https://forum.xda-developers.com/android
Take note of the distinct visual appearance. Remember that one level up (https://forum.xda-developers.com/) you had actual descriptions of what each category is about. At this level the descriptions have disappeared (for some reason), so you always have to go a level up to figure out which category you want to enter.
Level 3: https://forum.xda-developers.com/android/apps-games
Take note of the distinct visual appearance. Now this looks like your regular Internet forum. I wonder why can't Level 1. and 2. look just like Level 3. for an easy overview of navigation.
Am I the only person all these levels are not intuitive for or you as well? What forum engine XDA Forums runs on? I noted that Level 3. is fine, it looks like just any other Internet forum, but I'm puzzled and perplexed as ever about the distinct designs of Levels 1. and 2.
For a comparison of some neat and friendly forum interfaces, I encourage you to check out:
https://forums.anandtech.com/
https://arstechnica.com/civis/
+1: https://forum.f-droid.org/
Nothing special, really: just time tested, old forum interfaces that "just works" as they say. I'm not even saying they are perfect. For example, the AnandTech Forum doesn't have the descriptions the Ars Technica forum has, but due to the self-explanatory nature of the categories, I'm not lost while there. I understand XDA Forums have more complex topics, so descriptions are preferred.
+1: As opposed to the Ars Technica and AnandTech Forums, The F-Droid Forum uses a new school interface called Discourse. I find it effective as it has powerful features. If you ever want to upgrade XDA Forums, you might want to consider going with a next generation forum engine like Discourse.
Example: https://forum.xda-developers.com/general/help/budget-phones-eur-usd100-worth-buying-t3433115
I simply can't believe I'm the single person on this forum interested in this question. (It's timely as ever, by the way.) I just feel other people interested in the same topic somehow never found their way to my question because they also find XDA Forums overall just too complex to get a grasp on everything happening here.
2) Has anyone ever found checking the "Q&A Thread" was useful for their thread, and didn't regret checking that box in the end? Back then when I was without a clue, I checked the box. I learned never to check it again. See my cautionary tale here: https://forum.xda-developers.com/android/help/viewing-internal-storage-generic-phone-t3429852
I never got a proper answer there, and totally by accident (by external Google search after gave up I will ever find my answer on XDA Forums), I have found what I was looking for in a 5-year old Samsung Galaxy Nexus thread which turned out to be completely device-independent stuff: https://forum.xda-developers.com/ga...nlock-root-t1420351/post69913460#post69913460
Now why would the author of this completely device-independent guide put the guide in the Samsung Galaxy Nexus forum section where it lied for 5 years unnoticed, but being still useful today? Probably he has never figured out where the proper place for device-independent guides on the forum is. (Where is the proper place for device independent guides on the forum really, where contributors and users alike will find it equally easily?)
My related observation to this point is that I noticed many of the juicy activity on this forum in general takes place in [insert this year's hot Android phone] categories. Hot Android phone of the day or year changes at least yearly, most users change their devices at least once in two years, so even though many device-independent advice might have been accumulated in the topics for previous year's hot phones, this knowledge seems to be lost. It's still here on the forum, just no one looks at threads of old phones popular years ago looking for device-independent advice, people can only stumble upon information from this (actually huge) section of the forum by accident.
3) Idea: how about a distinctive indicator for a project is being active, still actively maintained or developed? It can be a green sign for active projects. Projects no longer being maintained and developed on the other hand could be distinctively marked with a red sign.
Example for I mistakenly thought of an active and alive project that it was no longer maintained and developed... or not? But something like this:
https://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=71988461&postcount=17847
https://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=72580936&postcount=17958
(Poor developer @M66B, I have no idea what negative experiences he may refer to: https://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=69284003)
Example for me being lost here 1.: This project has been abandoned for sure: https://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=888181
The thread has been closed for 5 years. I have no idea whatsoever in which section should I ask about a similar project which is alive and well. (And expect for answers, which is equally important! A few paragraphs above you can see examples that even I asked the right question in the right place according to moderator, I never received any answer whatsoever, or any meaningful answer.)
Example for me being lost here 2.: I really want to ask somewhere
https://android.stackexchange.com/questions/135711/is-apkmirror-com-safe
https://android.stackexchange.com/questions/74618/how-safe-is-it-to-use-aptoide
Example 2, for not finding my way around XDA Forums. I noticed there are many worthy, distinctive projects that seem to be abandoned by their developers: https://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=888181
It seems to be pretty abandoned; the thread has been closed for 5 years.
Aren't just too many separate categories? I just never was able to figure out the "overview" of XDA Forums the way I had no problem to overview AnandTech Forums and the Ars Technica forums. Even if you say there are exactly as many forum categories as needed, I can accept that. But sure, you could do more to make it visually intuitive - just like most other forums on the Internet are. Thanks!
Update. Another case in point: https://www.xda-developers.com/goog...-with-root-and-android-pay-in-the-xda-forums/
Poor Google engineer @jasondclinton_google has some good, general info on rooting vs. Android Pay (Google Pay?) security but why he had to post it in an obscured thread under xda-developers > Google Nexus 5 > Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting > Android Pay and Custom ROM instead of a forum topic of more general interest is beyond me.
Anyone?
Theres quite a few threads on this subject, perhaps people dont feel the need to contribute to another one?
magicphone said:
To answer my question; yes, I do. I always feel lost when I come here, so for this time, I want to try something new.
1) The main issue. I recognized (unlike all other forums on the Internet), it has three, distinct "layers" with a different visual appearance depending how deep you go into levels.
Level 1: https://forum.xda-developers.com/
Take note of the distinct visual appearance.
Level 2: https://forum.xda-developers.com/android
Take note of the distinct visual appearance. Remember that one level up (https://forum.xda-developers.com/) you had actual descriptions of what each category is about. At this level the descriptions have disappeared (for some reason), so you always have to go a level up to figure out which category you want to enter.
Level 3: https://forum.xda-developers.com/android/apps-games
Take note of the distinct visual appearance. Now this looks like your regular Internet forum. I wonder why can't Level 1. and 2. look just like Level 3. for an easy overview of navigation.
Am I the only person all these levels are not intuitive for or you as well? What forum engine XDA Forums runs on? I noted that Level 3. is fine, it looks like just any other Internet forum, but I'm puzzled and perplexed as ever about the distinct designs of Levels 1. and 2.
For a comparison of some neat and friendly forum interfaces, I encourage you to check out:
https://forums.anandtech.com/
https://arstechnica.com/civis/
+1: https://forum.f-droid.org/
Nothing special, really: just time tested, old forum interfaces that "just works" as they say. I'm not even saying they are perfect. For example, the AnandTech Forum doesn't have the descriptions the Ars Technica forum has, but due to the self-explanatory nature of the categories, I'm not lost while there. I understand XDA Forums have more complex topics, so descriptions are preferred.
+1: As opposed to the Ars Technica and AnandTech Forums, The F-Droid Forum uses a new school interface called Discourse. I find it effective as it has powerful features. If you ever want to upgrade XDA Forums, you might want to consider going with a next generation forum engine like Discourse.
Example: https://forum.xda-developers.com/general/help/budget-phones-eur-usd100-worth-buying-t3433115
I simply can't believe I'm the single person on this forum interested in this question. (It's timely as ever, by the way.) I just feel other people interested in the same topic somehow never found their way to my question because they also find XDA Forums overall just too complex to get a grasp on everything happening here.
2) Has anyone ever found checking the "Q&A Thread" was useful for their thread, and didn't regret checking that box in the end? Back then when I was without a clue, I checked the box. I learned never to check it again. See my cautionary tale here: https://forum.xda-developers.com/android/help/viewing-internal-storage-generic-phone-t3429852
I never got a proper answer there, and totally by accident (by external Google search after gave up I will ever find my answer on XDA Forums), I have found what I was looking for in a 5-year old Samsung Galaxy Nexus thread which turned out to be completely device-independent stuff: https://forum.xda-developers.com/ga...nlock-root-t1420351/post69913460#post69913460
Now why would the author of this completely device-independent guide put the guide in the Samsung Galaxy Nexus forum section where it lied for 5 years unnoticed, but being still useful today? Probably he has never figured out where the proper place for device-independent guides on the forum is. (Where is the proper place for device independent guides on the forum really, where contributors and users alike will find it equally easily?)
My related observation to this point is that I noticed many of the juicy activity on this forum in general takes place in [insert this year's hot Android phone] categories. Hot Android phone of the day or year changes at least yearly, most users change their devices at least once in two years, so even though many device-independent advice might have been accumulated in the topics for previous year's hot phones, this knowledge seems to be lost. It's still here on the forum, just no one looks at threads of old phones popular years ago looking for device-independent advice, people can only stumble upon information from this (actually huge) section of the forum by accident.
3) Idea: how about a distinctive indicator for a project is being active, still actively maintained or developed? It can be a green sign for active projects. Projects no longer being maintained and developed on the other hand could be distinctively marked with a red sign.
Example for I mistakenly thought of an active and alive project that it was no longer maintained and developed... or not? But something like this:
https://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=71988461&postcount=17847
https://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=72580936&postcount=17958
(Poor developer @M66B, I have no idea what negative experiences he may refer to: https://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=69284003)
Example for me being lost here 1.: This project has been abandoned for sure: https://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=888181
The thread has been closed for 5 years. I have no idea whatsoever in which section should I ask about a similar project which is alive and well. (And expect for answers, which is equally important! A few paragraphs above you can see examples that even I asked the right question in the right place according to moderator, I never received any answer whatsoever, or any meaningful answer.)
Example for me being lost here 2.: I really want to ask somewhere
https://android.stackexchange.com/questions/135711/is-apkmirror-com-safe
https://android.stackexchange.com/questions/74618/how-safe-is-it-to-use-aptoide
Example 2, for not finding my way around XDA Forums. I noticed there are many worthy, distinctive projects that seem to be abandoned by their developers: https://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=888181
It seems to be pretty abandoned; the thread has been closed for 5 years.
Aren't just too many separate categories? I just never was able to figure out the "overview" of XDA Forums the way I had no problem to overview AnandTech Forums and the Ars Technica forums. Even if you say there are exactly as many forum categories as needed, I can accept that. But sure, you could do more to make it visually intuitive - just like most other forums on the Internet are. Thanks!
Update. Another case in point: https://www.xda-developers.com/goog...-with-root-and-android-pay-in-the-xda-forums/
Poor Google engineer @jasondclinton_google has some good, general info on rooting vs. Android Pay (Google Pay?) security but why he had to post it in an obscured thread under xda-developers > Google Nexus 5 > Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting > Android Pay and Custom ROM instead of a forum topic of more general interest is beyond me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To your first point, I actually like the separate layouts for the different layers of the forum. I love modded forums in general, and I enjoy when forums step outside of the basic forumdisplay page.
As for the other points, I agree. I've spent the past few hours searching different forums for a few topics, and a lot of "general" info is split between a myriad of specialized, nested forums. I assume this helps the admins manage topic threads more efficiently. I'm sure it just takes some getting used to. I wouldn't describe it as "complicated" or "non-intuitive," just unique to xda. I run specialized message boards myself, and some forums are born out of general discussions that need to be compartmentalized for better management.
If I understand the whole situation, it goes like this: XDA has been around before Android was a thing, but got a high popularity boost with the introduction of Google's mobile operating system.
The original motto was along the lines of 'by developers, for developers.' But then a lot of new Android people came, not just developers, users as well and XDA couldn't keep up with the surge and you guys still try to find out ever since how to best manage such a huge and diverse community with developers and users alike, how to manage projects, bug reports, while maintaining a community of users, who might as well insightful feature requests for the projects. Does this sound about right?
So. Is the motto of the forum still supposed to be something like 'by developers, for developers,' or perhaps, it has changed?
Old, clip from your YouTube channel: You are a Noob on XDA-Developers. It's your second most watched video on your channel, actually. I just wonder if it's still the dominant attitude of you guys who run this place towards users (some of whom, perhaps want to remain users, just want to get out the most of their phones) and they should piss off and better go elsewhere, or perhaps you have toned down the communication and you are in the process of figuring out how this place could be more fruitful for all?
See more at the Google search: xda site:https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/
I Google searched to find this forum because I am just trying to understand XDA's layout. I'm currently using the app, and I am always so lost here. The only way I find anything at all is through Google searches. Right now I'm trying to understand this place's layout.
Yup same here from me. In general, have not found the XDA mods and Devs very helpful at all unless you're part of the inner circle of geek. Without wasting any more of my time trying to find a simple answer to a simple question on this convoluted diabolical forum I'm going to just join another more helpful more friendly, less up my own arse type of forum where you don't need to be a tech geek to get an answer.
Thanks for nothing XDA
leahcimewol said:
Yup same here from me. In general, have not found the XDA mods and Devs very helpful at all unless you're part of the inner circle of geek. Without wasting any more of my time trying to find a simple answer to a simple question on this convoluted diabolical forum I'm going to just join another more helpful more friendly, less up my own arse type of forum where you don't need to be a tech geek to get an answer.
Thanks for nothing XDA
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
See ya.
leahcimewol said:
Yup same here from me. In general, have not found the XDA mods and Devs very helpful at all unless you're part of the inner circle of geek. Without wasting any more of my time trying to find a simple answer to a simple question on this convoluted diabolical forum I'm going to just join another more helpful more friendly, less up my own arse type of forum where you don't need to be a tech geek to get an answer.
Thanks for nothing XDA
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
See ya.
leahcimewol said:
Yup same here from me. In general, have not found the XDA mods and Devs very helpful at all unless you're part of the inner circle of geek. Without wasting any more of my time trying to find a simple answer to a simple question on this convoluted diabolical forum I'm going to just join another more helpful more friendly, less up my own arse type of forum where you don't need to be a tech geek to get an answer.
Thanks for nothing XDA
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
K bye!
Ciao!
It's turning into a bye bye thread
I admit my post is not helpful