Related
http://www.amazon.com/Optical-Glass-Screen-Protector-Canon/dp/B002Z47AIO/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
I have one for my Panasonic LUMIX DMC-GF1 camera. It's brilliant. It's basically a sheet of multi-layered tempered glass with adhesive.
The installation is also amazing.. you slap it on, just like that, dry. No water or solution needed, and there are literally no bubbles. I was in awe. And there was NO degradation in image quality.. colors and saturation were unaffected and perfect!
I guess there are only a few issues with the product. It's semi-permanent, so removal would essentially mean shattering the glass unless you use a carefully applied heat source to weaken the adhesive bond. Some versions also introduce a bit of glare, though I've yet to experience such a problem with mine. Then again, there are anti-glare versions available. I guess it only works with capacitive and non-touch displays, as well.
If they made something like this for mobile phones I'd be instantly sold. Much hardier, valuable, and more innovative than the stupid hard/soft plastic screen protectors companies charge a heinous $10-15 for.
Wouldn't be surprised if something similar was available for the iPhone considering its accessory market. Shame other phones don't have anything similar.
Given that the phone has gorilla glass, do you guys thing the phone even need a protective screen cover?
Coming to the end of 2 yr. contract with dhd with screen protector that is looking A little beat up, so am on the fence right now.
any thoughts gratefully recd!
Al
Yes, if you ever plan to re-sale down the road, it will help on pricing. Plus, if you do get scratches, at least its on the screen protector.
Yes, I learned this the hard way on my Galaxy Nexus.
Yes, especially considering how many layers are all glued together. Don't want to replace all that, all at once
better be safe than sorry. also, if you're planning to resell the phone to get better value in the future, it's better to have screen protector.
ive never had a screen protector on any of my smarthphones.
i might try one on this phone though. its my first super expensive smarthphone.
Yes holding this phone is like trying to talk into a living big mouth bass.
falconeight said:
Yes holding this phone is like trying to talk into a living big mouth bass.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
lol wut
1. Yes, you need the screen protector. I learned it the hard way: Desire with scratched screen.
2. Yes, this is my first super expensive phone ever. Never went above €400 before...but this...I know €600...just could not resist
No, didn't for the s2 and no problems. Any scratches should be tiny, and invisible when you're using the thing.
Never had a screen protector on any phone for the past 14 years, not about to start now both my HD2 and S2 have stayed in pristine condition without.
Sent from my CM9 TouchPad
wow, $2 screen protector is too much for you guys? Do you even need to ask this question? I've used it on my iphone4 since day one with nice gel cover and same with LG O3D. Both look like new when i take them out of the cover. O3D is since last Sept 2011 and Iphone 4 i bought in Sept 2010. Already got good trade in price for ip4 for SIII. Coud'nt wait to get the screen protector for it as well as hard plastic cover which enhances the look of the phone.
Gorilla glass or bullet proof glass it's your gadget you should do whatever it takes to minimize wear and tear. My 2008 Lumina SS still wows passengers as they can't believe it's almost 4 years old car.
Nothing to do with the cost of a screen protector,I just really can't see why I would want one. As I've said, in 14 years of owning mobiles I'm yet to scratch a screen (or drop a phone). I don't use a case either unless I go to the beach - my phone, my choice. Do you guys also wrap all your furniture in plastic so that it doesn't get damaged?
Sent from my CM9 TouchPad
I've never used a screen protector on my Droid X and there isn't a mark on the screen. My assumption is that Gorilla Glass 2 is even better than Gorilla Glass so I'm not considering a screen protector on my SIII when it arrives. I just don't think any screen saver feels like the original glass of the phone and I just don't like them in general.
Ansextra said:
I've never used a screen protector on my Droid X and there isn't a mark on the screen. My assumption is that Gorilla Glass 2 is even better than Gorilla Glass so I'm not considering a screen protector on my SIII when it arrives. I just don't think any screen saver feels like the original glass of the phone and I just don't like them in general.
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Click to collapse
Gorilla glass 2 is stronger than 1, but they use less of it to make the phone thin as possible.
I don't know if thickness has anything to do with resisting scratches as I would need to look at their data sheet and experiments but I do know that you will have the same impact resistances.
They advertise "same strength at less thickness" when they presented it a few months back. So don't expect the SGS3 to be better than the SGS2, but expect GG2 to be better than GG1 at the same thicknesses.
Thx to all you guys that responded!
I might look up the specs of gorilla glass and see how scratch proof it is... would pref to go without cover if poss, but then i see the fairly mangled cover of my dhd and think hmmmm!!!
if I find good info i will post
http://bcove.me/5ywumwc9
impressive!!!
info here
HOW IS CORNING® GORILLA® GLASS 2 DIFFERENT?
Gorilla Glass 2 can be up to 20 percent thinner than the original, but still just as tough. This exceptional thinness enables greater design possibilities for slimmer and sleeker devices with brighter images and improved touch sensitivity. Gorilla Glass 2 is elegant and lightweight, but scratch resistant and durable enough to withstand the unexpected abuses of everyday life.
WHY DO I WANT GORILLA GLASS ON MY DEVICES?
Scrapes, bumps, and drops are a fact of life, but Gorilla Glass enables your device to resist damage from the abuses that come with everyday use. Gorilla Glass also has strong aesthetic appeal. It’s thin, lightweight, and cool to the touch – enabling the sleekest designs.
CAN YOU EXPLAIN THE ION-EXCHANGE PROCESS?
Ion exchange is a chemical strengthening process where large ions are “stuffed” into the glass surface, creating a state of compression. Gorilla Glass is specially designed to maximize this behavior.
The glass is placed in a hot bath of molten salt at a temperature of approximately 400°C. Smaller sodium ions leave the glass, and larger potassium ions from the salt bath replace them. These larger ions take up more room and are pressed together when the glass cools, producing a layer of compressive stress on the surface of the glass. Gorilla Glass’s special composition enables the potassium ions to diffuse far into the surface, creating high compressive stress deep into the glass. This layer of compression creates a surface that is more resistant to damage from everyday use.
WHAT MAKES GORILLA GLASS SO DAMAGE RESISTANT?
The unique composition of Gorilla Glass allows for a deep layer of high compressive stress (created through an ion-exchange process). This compression acts as a sort of “armor,” making the glass exceptionally tough and damage resistant.
HOW DO I KNOW IF GORILLA GLASS IS ON MY DEVICE?
Gorilla Glass is currently used by more than 33 major brands, designed into hundreds of product models, and featured on more than 750 million devices. Check out this list for the most current, comprehensive collection of devices that Corning can confirm for Gorilla Glass.
DOES THIS LIST INCLUDE ALL DEVICES THAT HAVE GORILLA GLASS?
No, unfortunately, customer agreements prevent us from identifying all the devices that feature Gorilla Glass. This list shows all devices we can talk about. We’ll continue to update the list as customers allow us to share that information.
CAN I BREAK GORILLA GLASS?
If subjected to enough abuse, Gorilla Glass can break. However, Gorilla Glass is better able to survive the real-world events that most commonly cause glass to scratch, chip, or break.
I LIKE THE IDEA OF GREATER DAMAGE RESISTANCE, BUT WON’T GORILLA GLASS ADD BULK TO MY DEVICE?
Corning’s ion-exchange process makes Gorilla Glass exceptionally durable, while allowing it to remain thin and lightweight enough to enable the sleekest smartphones and slates. Gorilla Glass can be produced at a thinness of 0.5 millimeters just four times thicker than a human hair.
IS IT TRUE THAT GORILLA GLASS WAS ORIGINALLY DEVELOPED IN THE 1960S?
No. That has been a popular myth, which apparently resulted from a misunderstanding of the facts. It’s true that Corning experimented with chemically strengthened glass in 1960, as part of an initiative called “Project Muscle.” In 1961, Corning developed a glass composition it promoted under the Chemcor® brand, which featured state-of-the-art strength and durability. Chemcor glass was incorporated into tableware, ophthalmic products, and applications for the automotive, aviation, and pharmaceutical industries. When Corning began developing a tough new cover glass for electronic devices in 2006, Corning scientists, of course, drew upon the company’s prior expertise with strengthened glass. However, Corning Gorilla Glass is a different product and glass composition than Chemcor. We implemented significant compositional as well as other changes to achieve superior product characteristics including outstanding damage resistance, while making the glass compatible with Corning’s proprietary fusion-draw manufacturing process. Corning’s fusion-draw process produces exceptionally thin glass with unparalleled surface quality. The result is a tough and damage-resistant glass that is ideal for today’s sleekest electronic devices and most sophisticated touch technology.
IS GORILLA GLASS RECYCLABLE?
Yes. Gorilla Glass is environmentally friendly and can be recycled.
Depends...
My G1 didn't have gorilla glass and after nearly 2 years it was scratch free. I had one on my Samsung GS1 (don't know if it did anything though), but I didn't put one on my Thunderbolt, Droid1, DX1, Bionic, or my Sensation and those are all just fine. Gorilla glass 2 can be scratched, I mean it's still just glass. Gorilla Glass2 can also break. Sadly a screen protector will not prevent your screen from breaking; They only prevent hairline scratches which really shouldn't lower the resale price more than what you would have spent on the screen protector and huge bulky case anyway. I personally like my phones naked.
Just take care of it, don't run around with keys or a bag of sand in your pocket and your phone should be just fine.
-Dr B
I prefer them naked.
Paging Dr B said:
My G1 didn't have gorilla glass and after nearly 2 years it was scratch free. I had one on my Samsung GS1 (don't know if it did anything though), but I didn't put one on my Thunderbolt, Droid1, DX1, Bionic, or my Sensation and those are all just fine. Gorilla glass 2 can be scratched, I mean it's still just glass. Gorilla Glass2 can also break. Sadly a screen protector will not prevent your screen from breaking; They only prevent hairline scratches which really shouldn't lower the resale price more than what you would have spent on the screen protector and huge bulky case anyway. I personally like my phones naked.
Just take care of it, don't run around with keys or a bag of sand in your pocket and your phone should be just fine.
-Dr B
I prefer them naked.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually, a soft screen protector will work as a shock absorber and turn impact energy into heat. This means that it actually does reduce the risk of screen damage. It's fairly basic physics.
Skickat från min GT-I9300 via Tapatalk 2
I didn't put one on my GS1 and to this day it doesn't have a single scratch on the screen. The back cover...that's another story. I've even taken it to the beach on several occassions. I don't plan on putting a screen protector on my GS3.
I prefer the feel of the glass without anything on it.
i never use protective glass on my older phones , i never put keys or other metallic things in the same pocket, in less than 1 month i see some tiny scratch on display of my lg g7.
i cant understand how "WOW GORILLA GLASS 5!!!" and in 1 month with a normal use it have some scratch
no one of my old phones have gorilla glass and their screen is with less scratch
Isn't that a good point to actually use screen protectors? They hardly add thickness or weight and if you would ever get scratches, you can just replace them.
As for how the gg5 received its scratch, we may never know. I'm not an expert on the "hardness" of everyday dust, sand or other materials but there surely is a way to even scratch the hardest glass on the planet given the right conditions. Some trade-offs will be involved when designing materials that are scratch resistant, flexible, clear, easy to clean and apply, long-lasting, cheap to produce, oleophobic, heat-resistant, etc. all at the very same time.
Gorilla Glass 5 is mostly aiming for durability (a.k.a the screen not to break when you drop the phone)
Hey guys. I've never used TGSP before. I've always opted for the wet-install self-healing ones and am quite used to those. They do have some cons, but I have felt the pros outweigh them. OTOH, I've never had a $1000 phone and I'm wondering about the true benefit of TGSP.
I realize that a TGSP will give a glass feel and some people opt for it over the others for that sole reason. I'm more interested in the actual protection offered. For sake of this conversation let's dismiss clarity, fingerprints, etc and talk about actual protection offered from impacts (and to a lesser extent scratches, though I think any protector will protect against a scratch).
My questions are:
1) Do those of you using TGSP simply not care about laying the protector in direct contact with the surface? Because it isn't the original screen you aren't as concerned if scratches were to appear? Or the TGSP just have a good enough scratch resistance that you aren't concerned? I ask this because I can see just by looking at many of your user installed pics and looking at the cases on my current phones (different makes/models) and all 16 cases I reviewed here. I would say that none of these cases have a high enough lip that I don't forsee a TGSP making the screen flush (or even past) the lip of the case.
2) How well does a TGSP actually protect against a break of the glass compared to the actual screen? I mean the screens are made of break resistant glass and are much thicker than a TGSP. I have seen quite a few people with phones with what looked like cracked screens, but turned out it was just their TGSP that broke and they hadn't replaced it yet. My belief/guess though is that whatever cracked their TGSP wasn't necessarily powerful enough it would have cracked their actual screen. IOW, I feel that they would break more easily than the actual screen and anything powerful enough to break the actual screen the TGSP probably wouldn't do much. Now saying this I realize it isn't completely useless - there is probably a level of pressure which the TGSP might protect, but clearly it isn't 100%.
I've looked extensively online and found lots of videos that show people surviving stress/drop tests with TGSP. Many times they break, but the phone is undamaged.
I have not found a SINGLE one where they take the same phone, one with TGSP and one with nothing and do the same test. Can anyone point me to any?
I guess many of you might say that it is only $5 for an average one, so why take the risk? I guess there is logic there, but it really isn't $5 if you don't want so many of the issues presented in this thread. You either spend $40+ on a dome or you spend half that for a DIY LOCA install or you suffer with halo, raised edges, etc. Again many of you may argue that even $40 for the Dome is worth the cost just for the piece of mind. Again, there can be logic there - but peace of mind/"just in case" is just that - it isn't fact and I have a really hard time spending the money for what might just be a placebo. I haven't used TGSP in the past and never broke a screen. Additionally, to the best of my knowledge phone screens have only gotten better over time (higher levels of Gorilla Glass, etc) that as time moves on I'm less likely to break one.
Can anyone offer anything more than anecdotal evidence that TGSP really have major benefits in this area? Again, I'm not saying they don't have benefits over other types of protectors, I'm just not convinced that protecting the screen from shattering is one of them.
Thanks.
The TGSP are much smoother than the self healing protectors, the Whitestone Dome is even smoother than the other TGSP that I've tried on the 3XL. I've personally seen several people with the self healing protectors who have dropped their phone and had the screen break. I have never heard of, or seen, anyone breaking the screen with a TGSP installed, the protector breaks instead. As you said there is no real proof on youtube that a TGSP is better than a self healing one so I think we'll have a hard time convincing you that they are worth the money. For me spending $40 to protect the screen on my $1000 device is a no brainer especially considering the quality/coverage of the Dome vs. the others that are available.
Long ago when I bought my first Nexus device, the Nexus one, I used the Zagg invisible shield. I was able to get a perfect application and it was great. The phone was less then a week old when it fell off my night stand and the screen died, the glass didn't break but it didn't work either. It started with a one Pixel width line down the screeb then eventually the screen just stopped showing anything/working all together. I had to send it back for repair. Worst birthday in a long time.
Since then I went off on the long and arduous journey of finding the perfect balance of screen protection and phone protection. Generally I buy several cases and TGSPs when I buy new phones, which is 2-3 times a year.
Since the Nexus one I've had numerous drops, broken TGSPs, and damaged cases but never once have I had to send my phone to get repaired. I'm so adament about it I make all my family/friends get TGSPs and cases. And luckily everyone I know minus one guy who goes swimming with his phone has been "saved" from costly repairs.
Microscratches aside, the idea is to "protect" your investment. Most people don't buy a new phone every year. And with the cost of replacements/insurance getting higher every year it's worth a few extra dollars and a bit of a bulkier phone in the end.
I get it there are those that don't do anything because that is how the phone is meant to be used. However minus the iPhone XS (and Max) I have yet to see a phone take any kind of fall without damage. I have a 19 month old and she loves phone's almost as much as I do but for very different reasons. When she throws a tantrum she'll throw whatever is in her hands, including my and my wife's phones. While coming back from Hawaii this year, United airlines messed up big time and I was stuck with wife and toddler in an airport in Chicago. Needless to say the daughter threw my phone umpteen times. She has an arm like a cannon, lol. No damage to the Pixel 3 XL, my iPhone X, or any of my other devices and everything works fine. But I can attest to the fact that if I didn't have a TGSP or case they would have all been costly repairs.
In the end it's up to the user but I can say that TGSPs over the skins and cases go a long way to save some headaches. The reviewers online might say otherwise but I truly believe they don't hold on to phones as long as the general populace.
So on the TGSP side what you get is, higher phone screen shatter resistance through absorbtion. Think of it as a bullet proof vest for your phone. The TGSP will take the brunt of the incident but don't think its 100% protection. It really does a good job of reducing the likely hood of a broken screen glass. Avoiding Microscratches, are a side effect of having a TGSP. I know of many people who don't listen to my advice and then complain that the screen is scratched or broken. Even a skin is better than nothing but as my story goes to prove nothing is 100%.
It sucks that I can't really keep the asthetic of the phone but hey if it cost less then maybe I'd be willing to make that sacrifice. Lol
Your question is complex, but the answer is very simple:
TGSP's are designed to take the brunt of the impact force and dissipate it across the area of the TGSP instead of transferring to to your phone. It's why we buy $5 TGSP's and just replace them when they break to avoid paying $100 to replace the phone's screen.
As mentioned already, the wet install TPU screen protectors have ZERO shatter protection for your screen. They are only there for scratch protection and are really an outdated technology.
The biggest down side of the TGSP though is lack of full screen coverage. None of them (not even the whitestome dome) can cover 100% of the phone's glass. There will always be 1-2mm gap around the edge of the protector that is exposed to potential scratches, but worse yet, is the awkward cut-out shapes that are required to avoid the proximity sensor. Your phone will almost always land on that spot when it falls lol - Murphy's Law!
If you're really worried about the TGSP being too thick and sticking above the raised lip of the case, then try a flexible glass or hybrid screen protector. They are super thin and still offer shatter resistance. Only downside, is they aren't as hard, so they can get scratched after a few months. Get 2 or 3 and you'll be good for a year.
from a materials perspective, glass is abrasion resistant by being very hard. plastic is soft and susceptible to abrasion. in terms of cracking, plastic is less likely to have crack initiation (which typically takes place near microcracks) and crack propagation, and it is also able to absorb energy in the form of deformation (plastic is more springy). glass is more likely to break than bend, but if an impact would have broken the phone screen and instead that energy goes into breaking the glass cover, then you have a sacrificial layer of protection (much like aluminum has an oxidized surface layer that promotes corrosion resistance of the whole). Plastic may transfer more energy than it is able to absorb considering the energy required to deform plastic is much less than that of glass, and once the plastic has bent, that bending can then bend the glass of the phone. by transferring the force.. which glass doesnt like.
It would be interesting to compare the performance of the two types under various drop conditions.
Hello,
I want to buy a P6P, but the only thing holding me back are the Reddit complaints and some YT reviews stating that the device gets scratched very very easily due to the GGV used on it? Can you share your experience.
Thanks.
Welcome to XDA, @dimitarfive.
I haven't noticed since I have an OtterBox Defender case and Whitestone Dome tempered glass screen protector. Same with my wife's P6P.
I don't think it scratches any more than other phones. I use a flip case without screen protector. I do have 2 or 3 miniscule scratches that are only visible under certain angles or lighting conditions. I would say that it all depends on how you protect and treat your phone.
Sand scratches all glass. Use a case and a screen protector. My 2.5 yo N10+ has no scratches or damage in spite of more then a few drops because it's always in a case with a screen protector. The case should have slightly raised guards on all sides of the display to help prevent contact on face plants.
A good case lessens high G loading that can damage internal components like BGA chipsets during an impact.
I've never used a screen protector, since the beginning of smartphones (Dell Streak 5). I keep my phone in a slim case, and it goes into a padded belt clip case (turtleback brand). My phone is used constanly, and I've never scratched one. But, I also don't go to the beach, or other functions that would allow dirt/rock/debris to get to the screen.
I know accidents can happen, but I try to treat my phones as the EXPENSIVE things they are.
p51d007 said:
I've never used a screen protector, since the beginning of smartphones (Dell Streak 5). I keep my phone in a slim case, and it goes into a padded belt clip case (turtleback brand). My phone is used constanly, and I've never scratched one. But, I also don't go to the beach, or other functions that would allow dirt/rock/debris to get to the screen.
I know accidents can happen, but I try to treat my phones as the EXPENSIVE things they are.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I live the desert. Just for giggles I finally took the screen protector off my old S4+, it felt good.
Within 4 months in spite off being careful it had a couple scratches. One grain of sand is all it takes... and sand is found everywhere.
Any pocket grit can mar glass.
Your dry fingers are also abrasive to glass and will gradually wear it down over time.
No screen protector, never used them. Day one purchase and no scratches. I don't think it scratches any easier than any other phone.
6 month old P6P here and it is scratch free.
Somehow, I got a scratch on my screen. It's a small ding and it doesn't bother me, but it's there. I don't use screen protectors, don't like them.
No screen protector but got a case since day 1 in October. No visible scratches.
I noticed micro scratches within the first week - so I am using a screen protection for the first time in my life.
dimitarfive said:
Hello,
I want to buy a P6P, but the only thing holding me back are the Reddit complaints and some YT reviews stating that the device gets scratched very very easily due to the GGV used on it? Can you share your experience.
Thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's an interesting topic.
And, factually, it is true that the Pixel 6 Pro scratches quite easily, compared to previous models.
Now, why is that?
The reason is the so-called Gorilla Glass Victus. It's a new product by Corning - a product that is in use in a number of phones, including IPhones. And that's where the interesting part comes in. All Gorilla Glass Victus phones are more prone to (micro) scratches.
Meaning that the Pixel 6 Pro does scratch more easily compared to previous models, but so does any other flagship with Victus glass, currently.
You might ask yourself: Why did Corning release a product that is prone to get scratched more easily? Well, the answer is quite simple: Drop protection. Gorilla Glass Victus is harder to scratch on a deeper level and is much more resistant to drop damage, at least in theory, according to Corning.
In the end, you will be best advised to get a screen protector on. The Pixel 6 Pro is a good phone. I can't call it great, since battery life and reception could both be much better, but you will have a hard time to find a package this good (awesome camera, many software features, timely updates, good root support (Samsung hates root), decent hardware quality, good hardware values on paper) somewhere else. The Pixel 6 Pro is a phone that I can recommend, but it's still a phone that can improve in a number of areas, but so does any other phone.
Considering that the P6a is on the horizon, and it's usually a much better bang for the buck, you might be best advised though, to hold out and wait for that phone (as far as I know, the P6a will be revealed in May).
Morgrain said:
That's an interesting topic.
And, factually, it is true that the Pixel 6 Pro scratches quite easily, compared to previous models.
Now, why is that?
The reason is the so-called Gorilla Glass Victus. It's a new product by Corning - a product that is in use in a number of phones, including IPhones. And that's where the interesting part comes in. All Gorilla Glass Victus phones are more prone to (micro) scratches.
Meaning that the Pixel 6 Pro does scratch more easily compared to previous models, but so does any other flagship with Victus glass, currently.
You might ask yourself: Why did Corning release a product that is prone to get scratched more easily? Well, the answer is quite simple: Drop protection. Gorilla Glass Victus is harder to scratch on a deeper level and is much more resistant to drop damage, at least in theory, according to Corning.
In the end, you will be best advised to get a screen protector on. The Pixel 6 Pro is a good phone. I can't call it great, since battery life and reception could both be much better, but you will have a hard time to find a package this good (awesome camera, many software features, timely updates, good root support (Samsung hates root), decent hardware quality, good hardware values on paper).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Which phone do you call good?
Scratches at a level 6 with deeper grooves at a level 7 just like all other glass phones...
;-)
In my experience, yeah, it scratches really easily.
I've never used screen protectors before, and I baby my phones, but within the first two weeks I had multiple scratches on the screen to the point where I had to put on a screen protector just for my sanity. I'm seriously considering getting the screen replaced entirely because of it.
stroke55 said:
I noticed micro scratches within the first week - so I am using a screen protection for the first time in my life.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Same happened to me, I never used screen protectors in the past and I could go several months to a year with very minor scuffs. With the P6 I got a heavy scratch after 3 days.
If you're worried about scratches and want peace of mind just use a screen protector. Glass is glass and will always scratch under the right conditions no matter how much GG hypes it up.
I think the oleophobic coating could be better but scratches are not a problem for me. My release pixel was 4 months without a screen protector and it looked fine, same for my new device after 2 months.
Had mine since mid January, no screen protector...not one scratch. I use a turtleback case. I've never had a screen protector on any of my smartphones. Last phone I had with a protector, was one of those old PDA type phones.
My back glass is COVERED in scuffs and scratches. I'm glad I got the white model because you really do have to inspect it properly to see it