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Took the following quote from http://windowsphonehacker.com/thought_why_activating_your_htc_hd2_is_a_bad_idea-01-14-11.php
Thought: Why activating your HTC HD2 is a bad idea
Hacking normally involves some shady but normally legitimate mods to software to bring to light new functions in your device. In the previous Windows Mobile era, Microsoft leaned towards a policy of ignorance towards what developers did to their devices, which brought forth cooked ROMs, unofficial WM6.5 updates, etc. Today, with Windows Phone 7, the stance has changed.
The HTC HD2, once flashed to Windows Phone 7, will not be able to sync with any Windows Live account. This is similar to Windows activation on the desktop, which requires that the software phone home and register its software key. Since the HTC HD2 is not a Windows Phone 7 device, it is not shipped with a PVK, which means it cannot activate with Microsoft's services. When we first reported yesterday about the HD2 getting live services, we were slightly skewed as to what this actually involves.
After further research, we discovered this to be more of a social hack, a type of hack involving tricking clueless employees into thinking that HTC forgot to activate your device. This calls for reason #1 why activating your phone is a bad idea. By lying to Microsoft, you are basically committing a form of fraud to obtain a license key. We are not experts, and the laws vary from country to country, but keep in mind this is not your usual stealing MP3 type of crime-Microsoft gets your name, number, email address, and device information. If Microsoft wanted to enforce this, long story short, you're in trouble.
Of course, we realize that much of the internet is not concerned about breaking their country's laws, a fact we will not have any judgement on. The second reason why you shouldn't activate your HD2 is a little more concerning for some:
Just think. If Microsoft receives hundreds of calls in 24 hours with users claiming their "HD7s" were shipped without PVKs, they're going to catch on. In fact, when reading on XDA developers, a certain post seemed troubling. A certain user writes:
I called the same # about 30 min ago. She asked me what type of phone it was. I said "schubert" then she asked me what happened to my activation code. I told her they never gave me one when i bought the phone. Then she gave me the code. I think there catching on though. She was like " We sure are selling alot of these phones in the last 24h" There gonna catch on just like with the sd cards a while back. Definitely a red flag. They will probably start asking for the serial # of the phone in the near future.
Other users reported being directed to HTC for support, or having strange comments made by Microsoft representatives. The point is this: when you hack software, the software won't bite back. When you hack humans, someone's going to figure it out, and when they do, a lot is going down.
Of course, by now, Microsoft employees have probably read the news all over the internet, so we're interested in what stance Microsoft takes on the issue. There is no way to "purchase" a PVK, unfortunately, leaving this the only option to activate your HD2 and use the Marketplace. Whatever you do is up to you, but we give our warning: Don't get caught, Don't get Microsoft to backlash on everyone else.
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So my thoughts are thinking we were going to get an upgrade from Microsoft to take our HD2's from Win mobile 6.5 to 7. They were talking about a new os way back when the HD2 came out.
Great I thought, sold my TytynII paid T-Mobile £200.00 with an 18 month contract (Ouch). And guess what NO UPGRADE, instead HTC make HD7 using the same hardware with a different case(No access to SD card), just to keep MS off their backs and hey we'll throw in a little back stand to keep you happy.
What [email protected], It's not like I can go and buy a retail, OEM or Upgrade of the new OS. So if this means tricking Microsoft into giving me a license key. tough I'll sleep well tonight.
Glad to get this rant off my chest.
I honestly bought an hd7 and I dont remember having a microsoft key anywhere...and there were some users prior to the hd2 thing that couldn't access live =/
We all know there gonna catch up to this, but take advantage now and get your key meanwhile this all happens.
domineus said:
I honestly bought an hd7 and I dont remember having a microsoft key anywhere...and there were some users prior to the hd2 thing that couldn't access live =/
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Every device that ships with WP7 should already be pre- or activated during the first setup, well WP7 is not being shipped with HD2, and you are basically exploiting MS activation service.
If you know of CyanogenMod Team Douche, they are basically cooking their own distribution of Android, in the earlier days they were packaging their release with Google apps, it didn't sit well with Google, and they had requested CM remove Google apps from their build tree. The reason is that every OEM who decides to issue a device running an Android flavor is getting the OS for free, but have to pay loyalty to include access to the Market.
With the recent developments around WP7 on HD2, one could easily see why MS might not be too happy about it. OEM's pay roughly $10 in licensing fees r per device to MS to put WP7 on their offerings, well HD2 now becomes a device that got it for free.
Seeing how quickly MS moved to shut down ChevronWP7 tools, and actually patching their OS in the next update to prevent unlocking with ChevronWP7 tools, they might incorporate counter measures to prevent HD2 devices running WP7 from access to their Live services, etc.
On the bright note, once it has been hacked it will only be a catch up game between MS and the enthusiasts - see Apple vs IPhone Dev Team.
good little article! i agree with it, not sure i agree with your opinion though.
Nah Cyanogen Mod wasn't in trouble for that. Google was just *****ing about source code sharing. Android is free, Google Apps just need approval.
Also they pay Microsoft $15 usd per license per phone.
vetvito said:
Nah Cyanogen Mod wasn't in trouble for that. Google was just *****ing about source code sharing. Android is free, Google Apps just need approval.
Also they pay Microsoft $15 usd per license per phone.
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agree, never heard of a loyal fee for the market..android is totally free...
MS do not help us upgrade to WP7,,then we do it ourselves...
whenever MS sell the activation code for let's say $30,,i would like to get one right away.
hacking the wp7 in hd2 should not affect the “Genuine” wp7 phone user (now we can say the keys are not unique to each phone.)
and the problem in the future would be the catch up game between MS and dft(?),, the situation could be more difficult than the one in IPHONE. (iphone sales is increasing. hd2 is almost out of shaves.)
vista1984 said:
agree, never heard of a loyal fee for the market..android is totally free...
MS do not help us upgrade to WP7,,then we do it ourselves...
whenever MS sell the activation code for let's say $30,,i would like to get one right away.
hacking the wp7 in hd2 should not affect the “Genuine” wp7 phone user (now we can say the keys are not unique to each phone.)
and the problem in the future would be the catch up game between MS and dft(?),, the situation could be more difficult than the one in IPHONE. (iphone sales is increasing. hd2 is almost out of shaves.)
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Android as an OS is free, however to provide the Market access OEM's with carriers have to pay Google.
^ nah, just a myth. You just have to follow Google rules and be approved for the use of Google apps. Its free. Such as the device must be able to make and receive calls in order for it to be approved for the Google market app
vista1984 said:
hacking the wp7 in hd2 should not affect the “Genuine” wp7 phone user (now we can say the keys are not unique to each phone.)
and the problem in the future would be the catch up game between MS and dft(?),, the situation could be more difficult than the one in IPHONE. (iphone sales is increasing. hd2 is almost out of shaves.)
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The hammer will come down hard on this one. People are basically screwing MS and HTC out of money.
Your screwing MS out of licensing fees and HTC out of new device sales.
I'm willing to bet MS is preparing to take action right now.
vetvito said:
^ nah, just a myth. You just have to follow Google rules and be approved for the use of Google apps. Its free. Such as the device must be able to make and receive calls in order for it to be approved for the Google market app
The hammer will come down hard on this one. People are basically screwing MS and HTC out of money.
Your screwing MS out of licensing fees and HTC out of new device sales.
I'm willing to bet MS is preparing to take action right now.
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ouch,,, i do not deny that there is no direct benefit for MS and HTC..
but when it comes to the advertisement or marketing.. we never know..
or would we hd2 users buy more app and music from marketplace?
or is it a big price gap between brand new hd2 and hd7?
..........
it really depend on how manufacturers think.
they don't need to worry about if another "hd2" case will come up,, this phone is real special one
I've been saying this since news broke of all of this.... I would not be surprised if Live accounts, this means your Xbox Gamertags, get indefinitely banned for this...
So, I've been looking around pretty hard recently and I have yet to see an answer on this that either applies to my phone or is not out of date.
My question is: Is a dev willing to attempt to replace android with Windows Mobile (6.1-6.5) or Windows Phone? Or is this not possible? ( Had seen previous answers stating we needed an unlocked bootloader for this to be an option...which we now have.)
Now some of you may be asking why the hell I'm wanting to replace the OS, and that comes down to the new privacy policy of Google's services and that there are no WM devices w/in the past two years that have a physical keyboard which use the 1700 MHz band for data.
Thanks so much for the help.
hobbiteer said:
So, I've been looking around pretty hard recently and I have yet to see an answer on this that either applies to my phone or is not out of date.
My question is: Is a dev willing to attempt to replace android with Windows Mobile (6.1-6.5) or Windows Phone? Or is this not possible? ( Had seen previous answers stating we needed an unlocked bootloader for this to be an option...which we now have.)
Now some of you may be asking why the hell I'm wanting to replace the OS, and that comes down to the new privacy policy of Google's services and that there are no WM devices w/in the past two years that have a physical keyboard which use the 1700 MHz band for data.
Thanks so much for the help.
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It is very hard to port a different OS. Possible, but very hard.
But as for the privacy policy, you understand that it basically makes Google have the SAME policy as Microsoft and Apple right? And you can opt out of many of the changes?
The media got that story and turned it into something it wasn't. Google can use your data to improve your experience in its other services. Just like Microsoft says it does.....only difference is they hide it in a wall of text, Google came out and told you.
Also, think that Windows Mobile/Windows Phone are closed-source OSes, while Android is Open Source. Even though, look how hard it is to port Ice Cream Sandwich to our device - an Android OS.
Porting another system with no drivers or access to source code would be next to impossible.
This has been asked a bunch and always answered with either no it can't work or why would you want to.
Don't think its possible
And its not that ics is super hard to port..its the fact that it hasn't been released for more than a couple devices. As soon as htc releases the official dhd ics things should go a lot smoother
Sent from my HTC Vision using xda premium
Nospin, I do know that the policy is basically the same for Google as it is for Microsoft or Apple. And i really do like that they came out and said it as opposed to the EULAs of the others. I am also aware I can opt out of Google's services by not signing in on my desktop, but not on Android. I am required to be logged in to use things on the device like the market. Even for free apps, I have to be signed in to download them. Then, most of them also only provide downloads via the market, so I can't go to their site and buy them or get them (or updates.)
I am well aware it is difficult to port a different OS to a device, but I also know it's not impossible (just next to it.) I also know the question had been asked multiple times. I found 4 different threads under 4 different devices. All of them had different answers. Either "we need an unlocked bootloader", "yes it can be done", or "not possible." Were the answers. With each of the threads being years old I figured asking was the easiest way to get an updated answer.
If open source is the issue, how about loading memo 5, or even a full on version of Linux (vnc solutions don't count.)
I appreciate the responses so far, but I'd also like to hear from a dev on the subject if possible.
HTC HD2 is multiplatform (android,WM 6.5, WP7, ubuntu, meego) but doesn't have keyboard (only bluetooth)
Oh god, the mention of WM 6.X on our device made me throw up in my mouth a little. So obsolete, laggy and unstable. I don't know why you would go anywhere near that garbage.
Porting WM or WP, not "impossible" per se. But so much would have to be built from scratch. No hardware drivers for WP to work on our device, so they would have to be written from scratch. It would be a huge effort, and the fact that WP is closed source, makes it all the more difficult. "Impossible", technically no. But hundreds, probably thousands of hours worth of work. Nobody is really interested in putting that much effort into such a project. And for the reason that you just don't like Google's privacy policy? Sorry, not going to happen.
Saw this great article (http://www.wpcentral.com/nokia-causing-fragmentation-windows-phone-their-exclusive-apps) and it's worth discussion. Actually I'm pissed about what Nokia is doing. Is it by force to use a Nokia device?? If I dont, why I'm I being punnised for it by not getting some good apps?
Nokia has made moves to gain some big titles (and leverage) for their hardware. Who does it hurt? Who does it benefit and is it a good thing? I say a BIG NO, it's not a good thing. Good for Nokia but not for the OS (Windows Phone)
The real deal is, Nokia’s strategy to get these apps and games on their hardware will definetely hurt Windows Phone and I can see Nokia's Version of Windows Phone coming out real soon and it aint good.
Pissed this morning, Always Nokia, Nokia, Nokia all ove the news with exclusive good apps.....WTF
All of the applications will be timed exclusive to nokia phones. Since the applications will be arriving sooner or later to other windows phones, i see no harm is being made. That being said, i think this is nokia trying to make developers care for the windows phone platform and is helping them to develop their applications for windows. That is probably why they get a timed exclusive for their phones. In the end, every windows phone user will be benefited as more applications will arrive to the platform!
I do not see why this is a bad thing.
1. Every manufacturer has their exclusive apps. Nokia is not the first one to do this, it's what manufacturers need on WP7 to differ themselves from each other.
2. Some of these are not even proper exclusives. These are timed exclusive and will be available to other phones at a later time as well.
I agree with you but wait for a year or what? Why do I have to wait soo long to get a CNN or ESPN app on my phone? How many people can just wait for apps they want desperately? I just can't wait and I just can't get a Lumia device so what? How about we that fall in this category?
Kenzibit said:
I agree with you but wait for a year or what? Why do I have to wait soo long to get a CNN or ESPN app on my phone? How many people can just wait for apps they want desperately? I just can't wait and I just can't get a Lumia device so what? How about we that fall in this category?
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ESPN has another app, and is also available online. CNN can be pulled into any RSS reader. Are these the only examples you have?
If so, the argument is very weak.
For the apps that dont exist - would they at all anyway if not for Nokia? Would you get them any sooner if not for Nokia? At all?
I see no validity in the argument for fragmentation. App availability by region has always been there. Is China causing fragmentation in WP7 because Twitter and Facebook have been removed for any handset sold in China?
Kenzibit said:
I agree with you but wait for a year or what? Why do I have to wait soo long to get a CNN or ESPN app on my phone? How many people can just wait for apps they want desperately? I just can't wait and I just can't get a Lumia device so what? How about we that fall in this category?
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Because Nokia is investing the time and money to develop these apps in the first place or at least is incenting the content owner (CNN or ESPN) to create these apps.
as eknutson described it already: If not for Nokia, you'd probably not see these apps at all or at least a lot later, when the OS has seen a wider range of adoption.
Let me also point out that some apps are not even without an alternative. Take the announced "BOX" app: Why wait for an official app, if "Boxfiles For Box.net FREE" does the same job?
If you managed to live without a paypal app this long, why not another 6 months?
hMM
i have to admit the ESPN app on Nokia is nice, I just used the switcher app in the forum.
LOL, what is all the nonsense about fragmentation?
You act like the apps won't work on other WP devices.
Nokia coughed up their own money to make the developers bring these apps to WP and you want them to then share with other OEMs?!?
OEMs who have been in the game significantly longer and have simply twiddled their thumbs and blamed MS for all WP woes while pumping out me-too devices as opposed to innovating?
BE REAL!
Thank Nokia for giving these developers the incentive to give WP the time of day.
Once they begin working on their apps, they will realize just how easy it is to code for the OS, leading to more apps in the future as opposed to the current developers having to rely on APIs that blocked all the time (Pandora, Instagram) so they too can produce their own original apps for the platform.
Plus fragmentation refers to the OS version, not the apps themselves.
And if you're so mad about it, go buy a Nokia device.
Well let's see, either Nokia gets them first by paying cash out of their own pockets and then in time shares it with the OEMs who couldn't care less about doing anything for the platform, or we don't get them at all because no OEM cares. Without Nokia, WP7 really would be a lesser OS. Don't get me wrong, I used a DVP for almost a year before the first Nokia device got sent my way, but Nokia made WP7 MUCH better.
Not only does this give us the games, it builds the framework to create future versions of the game. This is helping WP7 perpetually, now stop getting angry that you picked up a piece of recycled android hardware and be happy for all that Nokia has done for our fine OS.
Other OEM's are free to make deals with big development companies too...
But they won´t, take a look at HTC for example, they could make deal with Route 66 about navigation, for example one/two free maps, but no, they offer you trial, and then you must pay.
Excellent comments so far but I still don't think it's fair for people to benefit more than others on the same OS. In the Android world, I think it's about OS customizations and not apps benefits. All apps are acquired by everyone, the only difference being your customizations and experience.
Secondly, I know some HTC and MS workers will see this post, after all they are here with us under disguise ;-)
Yea, right, I hate everyone who owns an HTC because he has an sound enhancer...wait, I don´t, I don´t even hated LG for having DLNA app in front of many others...just think please!
Some companies put simply more effort into the platform, HTC puts it into the Android OS, Nokia is so far first OEM whose commitment can be really seen, and you want to hate just because of that? Gimmie a break.
It could encourage HTC and Samsung to retreat even more from Windows Phone, if their sales get that much worse in comparison.
And if they instead take the initiative and start on the same strategy then that would be fragmentation, just like the article says. Temporary fragmentation, to be sure, but what happens when someone realizes that "I either buy HTC and get this and this app, or Samsung and get this and this app, or Nokia and get this and this app"?
thebobp said:
It could encourage HTC and Samsung to retreat even more from Windows Phone, if their sales get that much worse in comparison.
And if they instead take the initiative and start on the same strategy then that would be fragmentation, just like the article says. Temporary fragmentation, to be sure, but what happens when someone realizes that "I either buy HTC and get this and this app, or Samsung and get this and this app, or Nokia and get this and this app"?
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Going on this way Android should have failed real quick then. But apparently it's alive and well...to me stepping up the competion always leads to a win for the user. Without HTC and other OEMs skinning the older, fugly and piss poor versions of Android there would have been no Android boom at all IMHO. Thanks to them actually investing on the platform, it is now the most relevant phone OS in the world. Not bad heh?
vnvman said:
Going on this way Android should have failed real quick then. But apparently it's alive and well...to me stepping up the competion always leads to a win for the user. Without HTC and other OEMs skinning the older, fugly and piss poor versions of Android there would have been no Android boom at all IMHO. Thanks to them actually investing on the platform, it is now the most relevant phone OS in the world. Not bad heh?
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Click to collapse
I'm not talking about skinning (which the user can rationalize as "am i buying this look or that look?" ) but apps actually being unavailable depending on which phone you buy. Say all manufacturers start advertising very hard: "come to us; the others don't have these apps!" Unfortunately, this is negative advertising, and incoming users would start wondering "eh, why don't i just go to iOS, where i'll have all of them?" that's the essence of fragmentation.
Of course, the other alternative (that nobody else bothers to escalate) is almost as bad.
sent from my Terran Command Center.
This thread must be a wind-up. Seriously -- no one could be complaining about "fragmentation" due to one OEM deciding to bring more value to their own handsets.
Kenzibit said:
Is Nokia causing fragmentation on Windows Phone with their exclusive apps? YES
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I don't understand your use of the word "fragmentation." At present if a developer chooses to make an app that works on ALL Windows Phones they can. If some developer is sitting on their @$$ and only servicing the iphone market and a manufacturer makes a deal and pays the developer to make an exclusive app for their phone I don't see what the problem is. It's not like they are saying, hey ebay I know you have a Windows Phone app. Why don't I pay you to pull it and only make it for my handsets.
HTC can join the party or fold. By Nokia enticing developers with ITS OWN MONEY they are only expanding the Windows Phone eco system. I don't really see a time in the future where so many apps are bought up everyone has a hard time getting an app on their phone. Once a critical mass of apps are on Windows Phone more handsets will sell and developers will create apps without incentives. Heck if someone enticed epocrates to create a Windows Phone version of their software I would buy that brand of phone. That would be better than the current state of affairs (ie nothing).
sitizenx said:
I don't understand your use of the word "fragmentation." At present if a developer chooses to make an app that works on ALL Windows Phones they can. If some developer is sitting on their @$$ and only servicing the iphone market and a manufacturer makes a deal and pays the developer to make an exclusive app for their phone I don't see what the problem is. It's not like they are saying, hey ebay I know you have a Windows Phone app. Why don't I pay you to pull it and only make it for my handsets.
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Click to collapse
Same result either way: the app is available only for Nokia (at least temporarily). If you agree the latter is fragmentation, then you'll agree the former is. Fragmentation for a good reason is still fragmentation.
Right now it's not that worrisome; what is worrisome is if the others happen to respond in kind. Then we'll really have fragmentation of apps - "such and such is available only on HTC Windows Phone, such and such only on Samsung Windows Phone, and such and such only on Nokia".
That's not "fragmentation," it's "exclusivity."
Different issue.
So basically what we are going to get is just the "new" start screen? nothing else? like maps powered by nokia, skype integration?
I would love to know too. Almost sold my Lumia already, but I dont know which phone I get instead it. I'll keep it for a while.
Guess we will know in a few days, no one knows it right now.
Paul Thurrott has a write-up about this here:
http://www.winsupersite.com/article/windowsphone75/windows-phone-78-preview-143476
Wait.. No multitasking? Nor Skype integrated!?!?
Seems like MS is doing everything to loose these 1-2% of the smartphones market...
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1722502
I wont buy another windows phone anymore! I liked windows phone so much, but microsoft disappoint me with no updates for first generation devices. If the old phones would also get the new kernel, app-compability and skype-integration, then would it be enough. But Microsoft is ****ing stupid and dropps the little amount of windows phone users in only one day!
luizmeme said:
So basically what we are going to get is just the "new" start screen? nothing else? like maps powered by nokia, skype integration?
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I just contacted the WinPhoneSupport:
http://www.twitter.com/WinPhoneSupport/status/215556734205435904
@WinPhoneSupport: @ChrisK91 The only thing announced for 7.8 is the change of the start screen. ^EB
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ruyzalim said:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1722502
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It's a stupid marketing bull**** from MS guy... This Belfiore guy wrote:
Windows Phone 8 is a generation shift in technology, which means that it will not run on existing hardware. BUT we care deeply about our existing customers and want to keep their phones fresh, so we’re providing the new Start screen in this new update.
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It's a complete bull****! "shift in technology"... He should try Galaxy S III first!
But the facts are:
- MS just made stupidest decision in a years. Probably next 5 month WP7 sales will fall to 0.
- also, I'm expecting the app developers (as I am) will stop developing new stuff for "outdated" WP7 platform;
- it's a painful blow to manufacturers, especially to Nokia! Who will buy "gorgeous Lumia 900" now if it become outdated old piece of hardware so shortly? Check ebay in few days - Lumia 900 price will be bellow $200...
- and, finally, the most important thing: Microsoft has lost the trust and loyalty of customers. Who will spend money for "brand new" WP8 if next year they will announce WP9?
So, my conclusion: it's a very good time to sell MS stocks right now! Don't wait and risk your money...
freddx said:
I wont buy another windows phone anymore! I liked windows phone so much, but microsoft disappoint me with no updates for first generation devices. If the old phones would also get the new kernel, app-compability and skype-integration, then would it be enough. But Microsoft is ****ing stupid and dropps the little amount of windows phone users in only one day!
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Click to collapse
Calm down... Don't you know what a kernel change means? It's like installing linux over windows on your PC. The OEM would start from scratch, rewrite every driver on the device (cpu, gpu, display, buttons, touch, accelerometer, compass, bluetooth, wlan... And the list goes on forever), that would take about 9 months at least. The OEM would loose more money than it would get.
jessenic said:
Calm down... Don't you know what a kernel change means? It's like installing linux over windows on your PC. The OEM would start from scratch, rewrite every driver on the device (cpu, gpu, display, buttons, touch, accelerometer, compass, bluetooth, wlan... And the list goes on forever), that would take about 9 months at least. The OEM would loose more money than it would get.
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Sorry I was in rage....but an update with more features would be nice The "old" hardware can do more than only a new start screen. Apple even gives a iOS6 lite to the 3Gs and all appstore-apps are compatible...
sensboston said:
It's a stupid marketing bull**** from MS guy... This Belfiore guy wrote:
It's a complete bull****! "shift in technology"... He should try Galaxy S III first!
But the facts are:
- MS just made stupidest decision in a years. Probably next 5 month WP7 sales will fall to 0.
- also, I'm expecting the app developers (as I am) will stop developing new stuff for "outdated" WP7 platform;
- it's a painful blow to manufacturers, especially to Nokia! Who will buy "gorgeous Lumia 900" now if it become outdated old piece of hardware so shortly? Check ebay in few days - Lumia 900 price will be bellow $200...
- and, finally, the most important thing: Microsoft has lost the trust and loyalty of customers. Who will spend money for "brand new" WP8 if next year they will announce WP9?
So, my conclusion: it's a very good time to sell MS stocks right now! Don't wait and risk your money...
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You shouldn't sell MS stocks right now, because of one developer summit. Of course, there are a lot of disappointed users (including me) about the way MS took. But I don't think that every point in your list is valid. I doubt that WP7 sales will drop to 0. There are a lot of people buying phones based on feel. However I guess the WP7 sales will decrease in the coming months. At least the sales of new expensive devices like the Titan or Lumia 900. I also expect the prices of current handsets to drop over a few days.
Microsofts course could harm Nokia, I totally agree. When they made Nokia Drive available to every device, Nokia lost a unique selling point. One of the reasons why I bought a Lumia 800 was the free navigation. I'm expecting that Nokia's stock will drop even further in the coming days, if there aren't any new announcements that "improve" the current situation.
I also get that developers will target new phones. However how do you develop for Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8? Most likely with C# and the .Net framework. And guess what? You can run .Net based Apps on Windows Phone 7 as well. But at first I was also skeptical about this question and asked it in a Nokia Conversations discussion. The answer of a Nokia employee is attached.
the most important thing: Microsoft has lost the trust and loyalty of customers.
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I totally agree. However they can gain (at least my) trust back by providing not only the new start screen, but other improvements as well. The rumored new notification system comes to mind.
All in all I guess this announcement did not resolve the current update situation. In a nutshell MS stated that WP8 will be based on a new kernel and that this new kernel won't come to existing devices. Most of the new announcements were hardware related. One of the software things is the start screen, and this one is coming in Windows Phone 7.8. Did did not say, that this start screen is the only thing in this update. As stated above, MS should release (and continue releasing) updates that add WP8 functionality to WP7.
jessenic said:
Calm down... Don't you know what a kernel change means? It's like installing linux over windows on your PC. The OEM would start from scratch, rewrite every driver on the device (cpu, gpu, display, buttons, touch, accelerometer, compass, bluetooth, wlan... And the list goes on forever), that would take about 9 months at least. The OEM would loose more money than it would get.
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Well it's of course expensive. But if Microsoft stays coherent with the kernel they could most likely reuse the code in the future. But I think the problem is hardware related. On one side there are the NFC features. Also the SecureBoot can't be integrated (at least AFAIK) only software vise. They have special hardware requirements and current phones don't meet them. Then again, the current CPUs are very fast and can run the Windows Phone 7.8 experience.
Chris, you are optimistic guy (and it's OK!) but I believe we do have more points for pessimism now...
What's happened - it's not a hardware-related but just marketing (read - stupid marketing!) issue. Microsoft is copying Apple's strategy now (probably they planned to sell own MS handsets) but without Steve Jobs magic it's hopeless...
MS public persons explanations - it's a bull****, don't trust 'em! It's like a "4 GB limitation of x86 OS'es" (what is an outrageous lie). I'm 99% sure it's happened because of two reasons:
- they want to "save" (he-he) some money for dropping old handsets support ;
- but the primary reason (I think so): they want to sell their own handsets
Also, unsuccessful WP7 marketing campaign during last two years should open our eyes...
I'd like to be optimistic but...
@sensbottom: let me correct your two mistakes there:
a) 4GB is really limit of 32bit operating systems. PAE requires the applications to support it => almost none do.
b) Supporting another system takes more money than upgrading them to the same one. Long term.
@OndaTer, first of all, I'm sensboston (Boston - it's a city on the East cost of US)
Second, read this: http://www.unawave.de/windows-7-tipps/32-bit-ram-barrier.html?lang=EN You may google for more if you want...
Third, what do you mean by "another system"? What "another" system? WP8 devices will have same CPU (arm) as current handsets; of course, adding support of current handsets should cost some money! But loosing the trust (finally) is much more expensive, you'll see it by the end of this month (even week). Just mark today's MS stock price...
Sorry, I always read it that way
a) Yes, it is called PAE, which is exactly what I wrote. Read it again! It is NOT possible to address >4GB with 32bit addresses. PAE uses 36bit addressing, but the application HAS to be compiled to be able to support the extra space!
b) "It is more money consuming (long term) to work on 7.8 line and 8.0+ line."
// I mean - application itself has only 4GB virtual space. Yes, the rest of the system can move the base of each application and thus use >4GB RAM. But note that also drivers must support it and that's why it is usually targetted at servers and it is disabled on desktops!
// ah I see what you mean - I thought that they removed it after SP2 or SP3 of XP (the issues with driver compatibility with PAE enabled).
sensboston said:
Chris, you are optimistic guy (and it's OK!) but I believe we do have more points for pessimism now...
What's happened - it's not a hardware-related but just marketing (read - stupid marketing!) issue. Microsoft is copying Apple's strategy now (probably they planned to sell own MS handsets) but without Steve Jobs magic it's hopeless...
MS public persons explanations - it's a bull****, don't trust 'em! It's like a "4 GB limitation of x86 OS'es" (what is an outrageous lie). I'm 99% sure it's happened because of two reasons:
- they want to "save" (he-he) some money for dropping old handsets support ;
- but the primary reason (I think so): they want to sell their own handsets
Also, unsuccessful WP7 marketing campaign during last two years should open our eyes...
I'd like to be optimistic but...
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Click to collapse
Well, we don't really have a choice here. I cannot return my phone and I have to live with it until 2013. At the moment we should wait what Microsoft announces about the 7.8 update. The Nokia Conversations Post mentioned multiple changes in the Windows Phone 7.8 update. They also reassured that they will stay committed to delivering updates. And it's not like that our phones will suddenly stop to work. Everything will be as integrated as before.
ChrisKringel said:
Well, we don't really have a choice here. I cannot return my phone and I have to live with it until 2013. At the moment we should wait what Microsoft announces about the 7.8 update. The Nokia Conversations Post mentioned multiple changes in the Windows Phone 7.8 update. They also reassured that they will stay committed to delivering updates. And it's not like that our phones will suddenly stop to work. Everything will be as integrated as before.
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THIS!
Im a little annoyed that my titan wont get the full WP8 update but im sure it will still get some new features! they've only shown WP8 once so far at a dev summit and people are saying they are going to sell there phones its mad! also i dont get people complaining that there first gen phones are getting WP8! they will be 2 years old!!! You are getting a update like apple would basically so stop complaining! If you were on android you would be out in the cold with a two year old handset most likely
WP 7.5 lacks a lot of features and we're going to be left out just like that.
This is just great. It's been like 6 months since I bought my phone and it's already outdated. Thank you MS. My phone is now nothing but a brick!
luizmeme said:
WP 7.5 lacks a lot of features and we're going to be left out just like that.
This is just great. It's been like 6 months since I bought my phone and it's already outdated. Thank you MS. My phone is now nothing but a brick!
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ok your getting a WP7.8 update arent you? you dont know what thats going to contain yet! also by the time this comes out your phone will actually be 12 months old almost and oh yes last time i checked the phone isnt suddenly going to stop working is it!
Isnt it simple to call Verizon or whatever to cancel the contract and get a refund? Just asking, It just seems that after the announcement, Every single WP user went ALL RAGE!!!! But, hasnt anyone thought of contacting the carrier instead?
OptimusLove said:
Isnt it simple to call Verizon or whatever to cancel the contract and get a refund? Just asking, It just seems that after the announcement, Every single WP user went ALL RAGE!!!! But, hasnt anyone thought of contacting the carrier instead?
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Doesn't breach any contract by the carriers, hardware manufacturers or software vendors. Don't see why would Verizon, HTC/Nokia or MSFT is liable for any refund.
OptimusLove said:
Isnt it simple to call Verizon or whatever to cancel the contract and get a refund? Just asking, It just seems that after the announcement, Every single WP user went ALL RAGE!!!! But, hasnt anyone thought of contacting the carrier instead?
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How exactly are the carriers responsible that they should nullify the contract? It's been no secret that there was an extreme likelihood that current WP7 phones would not get the Apollo upgrade. There was nothing official. Prudence would dictate that you wait for an official statement or wait until something is actually released before committing to a 2 year contract. Some people just didn't want to wait and now feel "entitled" to something they never deserved. Gonna be dumb, ya gotta be tough.
fatclue said:
How exactly are the carriers responsible that they should nullify the contract? It's been no secret that there was an extreme likelihood that current WP7 phones would not get the Apollo upgrade. There was nothing official. Prudence would dictate that you wait for an official statement or wait until something is actually released before committing to a 2 year contract. Some people just didn't want to wait and now feel "entitled" to something they never deserved. Gonna be dumb, ya gotta be tough.
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Its the user that will request to nullify so that, they(the user) can sell the phone, save the money to buy a new one.
OptimusLove said:
Its the user that will request to nullify so that, they(the user) can sell the phone, save the money to buy a new one.
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I know it's the user who wants to cancel. What I meant was why would the carrier agree to nullify? Buyer's remorse? Sorry, make an informed purchase like the rest of us or pay the unsubsidized price if you want to swap devices on a whim.
Let us start a petition to end all the petitions.
nicksti said:
Let us start a petition to end all the petitions.
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Count me in!
nicksti said:
Let us start a petition to end all the petitions.
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Agreed, I bet those petitioners dont know their carriers phone numbers.
nicksti said:
Let us start a petition to end all the petitions.
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Agreed. Not to sound mean or insensitive, but man am I sick and tired of all the whiny, prissy, entitled little asshats stamping around like a deranged toddler who's parent says no to the damned coco puffs.
I bought my Samsung Focus almost 2 years ago, and in that time MS has given me numerous updates for free, ALL of which have not just added features but actually IMPROVED the performance of the device and reduced the memory footprint. We already know Tango will do the same, and it's a safe bet that the new Start screen won't dramatically impact memory usage.
Contrast that with my Apple experience, where for 2 years every new version of iOS became more bloated and made my phone run slower and slower, each and EVERY time claiming the new OS version number as newer devices, yet NEVER giving me all the features of those devices, and ultimately ruining--yes, RUINING--my device to the point where it was unusable due to the slowness of its bloated, hackneyed OS.
When Microsoft finishes the run of WP7 devices, each and EVERY phone that runs the OS will continue to be usable, will continue to run better than it ever has in its lifespan, and will continue to be supported by a marketplace that currently has more than 100,000 apps.
Let me be plain: there is NOTHING HERE TO WHINE ABOUT. Grow up, accept that you're never going to own a piece of technology that will be "future proof," and move forward with your life.
There is NO SUCH THING as future proof. It's a marketing lie, and if you're dumb enough to believe it that's nobody's fault but your own.
equal refidera
In the U.S., if you get a subsidized phone you could always leave before the contract expires. However, you are obligated to pay an early termination fee. Exact amount depends on how long you stayed so far. People who bought the 2nd generation Windows Phones probably started their 2 year term not too long ago and would pay a relatively high fee.
As far as the number of petitions goes, I think it shows that users are not happy seeing their relatively new device already obsolete because it cannot run any WP8 apps. It is not just the most-demanding apps or ones that demand better hardware. It is all of them.
Even if this sort of thing happens with Android or Apple, it is still a problem here because there are so many petitions/complaints. Add to this that there was a platform reset just 2 years ago with Windows Mobile and the fact that there are not too many Windows Phone users to begin with, I think this is an issue in which Microsoft has to be proactive and find a workable solution. Google and Apple can afford to piss off a few customers as their base is huge. Unfortunately, Microsoft does not have that luxury. Likewise, it does Microsoft no good if their users are complaining at the same time MS is trying to get these same people onto WP8.
Microsoft, Nokia, and whomever else should just implement some type of trade-in program where current WP7 users can get a WP8 device with a fair discount. Then if people want a WP8 device right away, they do not have to wait over a year until your contract ends. I am sure Microsoft wants tons of WP8 users immediately to attract app developers. With a trade-in, this would certainly happen. If Microsoft does nothing, people could very well stay angry and go to Android or Apple when their contract is up. Even if everybody suddenly accepts the current WP7 situation and became happy with MS, it would still take a long time (if ever) for WP8 to get reach a decent sized userbase. That is why I believe Microsoft should do something to get almost everybody using WP7 onto WP8 come this fall.
jasongw said:
Agreed. Not to sound mean or insensitive, but man am I sick and tired of all the whiny, prissy, entitled little asshats stamping around like a deranged toddler who's parent says no to the damned coco puffs.
I bought my Samsung Focus almost 2 years ago, and in that time MS has given me numerous updates for free, ALL of which have not just added features but actually IMPROVED the performance of the device and reduced the memory footprint. We already know Tango will do the same, and it's a safe bet that the new Start screen won't dramatically impact memory usage.
Contrast that with my Apple experience, where for 2 years every new version of iOS became more bloated and made my phone run slower and slower, each and EVERY time claiming the new OS version number as newer devices, yet NEVER giving me all the features of those devices, and ultimately ruining--yes, RUINING--my device to the point where it was unusable due to the slowness of its bloated, hackneyed OS.
When Microsoft finishes the run of WP7 devices, each and EVERY phone that runs the OS will continue to be usable, will continue to run better than it ever has in its lifespan, and will continue to be supported by a marketplace that currently has more than 100,000 apps.
Let me be plain: there is NOTHING HERE TO WHINE ABOUT. Grow up, accept that you're never going to own a piece of technology that will be "future proof," and move forward with your life.
There is NO SUCH THING as future proof. It's a marketing lie, and if you're dumb enough to believe it that's nobody's fault but your own.
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This post deserves a medal.
Sent from my SGH-I777 using xda premium
MikeyMike01 said:
This post deserves a medal.
Sent from my SGH-I777 using xda premium
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Lool.
Here's a email I sent to Microsoft's [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]
Hi Everyone,
I'm sending this email for two reasons. First I have been a Windows Phone user since 2004 when HP released the first pocket pc phone, HP 6315. I then purchased the HP 6515 and HP 6915. I then purchased the HTC Touch P4000 windows 5.0 and then HTC Touch diamond 6.1, HTC Touch Pro 2 windows 6.5.
And when Microsoft released Windows Phone 7, I purshased HTC Surround and then just last week I purchased for my wife the new Nokia 900 and the HTC Titan2 for my self, plus my two kids have a HTC Surround and HTC HD7S.
The reason that I mentioned all these phone is to show my dedication to the windows phone platform, and just two let you know I have been a long time Windows user as well. My first Windows desktop was Windows 1.0.
I heard this week that our second generation phones won't get the Windows Phone 8 upgrade, Considering we just bought that latest phones and they will be outdated in a couple of months, I feel for the first time ripped off considering Apples Iphone 3 will upgrade to os6.
I would thing that you would want to keep your loyal customers, and for the first time I'm debating if we don't get the update to Windows Phone 8 to change phone platforms, and this really hurts considering how much I believe in Microsoft's products. THanks again I look forward to your response.
Yours Truly,
Mark Connors
MC Engineers
Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer
NSCSA Safety Certified 2012
[email protected]
Here is Peter Chou for HTC reply:
Dear Mark,
Thanks for supporting HTC products for so long and so many years. Win8 is a big step so we are not able to upgrade to win 7 devices. However we will have a win7 upgrade version which will have most of the win8 experience.
Regards.
Peter
Here's Steven Rlop for Nokia reply:
Dear Mark,
There are advances in hardware in future devices that will enable new experiences that will not be available on the existing devices. And yet, you will see some of the WP8 features on WP 7 devices, and, on the Nokia devices, there is a wide array of additional capability being provided. Just as with an older Apple product that cannot do many of the new things, we will continue to enhance what can be done.
Regards,
Stephen
Here's my reply back to everyone.
Hi Everyone,
Thanks for your quick reply. I'm a PLC programmer and software developer myself so I know how it works with hardware and software. That being said when Microsoft released Windows 7 they created Windows starter for pc's with minimum hardware specs,
So why doesn't Microsoft create Windows Phone 8 for the new devices and Windows Phone 8 light for the older devices. I realize that Windows Phone 7.8 is that lighter version but in the public's eyes they look at it as not getting the next version of Windows Phone 8. And last I think if Microsoft rolls out the lighter version and calls it Windows Phone 8 for first and second generation phones plus explain it has most of the functionalities as the new phones, the majority of Windows Phone users would understand. Thanks again for your response.
Mark Connors
MC Engineers
Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer
NSCSA Safety Certified 2012
[email protected]
Peter Chou response was.
Mark, this is a good idea. We can look into that direction. Thanks again.
The interesting thing was the fact that Microsoft has never responded to any of my emails, so again it's like Microsoft really doesn't care about their customers.
I believe that Microsoft could have created two versions of Windows Phone 8, with support for new and old devices and if the first and second devices didn't support the particular software it wouldn't be activited in the first or second phones.
Mark Connors
MC Engineers
Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer
NSCSA Safety Certified 2012
[email protected]
I've got an idea. Let's allow the free enterprise system to do its thing. Those of you who feel "cheated" by Microsoft can go ahead and switch to another platform of your choosing. Those who switch to Android, be careful of what you wish for..... Those who switch to iOS, same goes for you too. When the dust settles and Google releases Jelly Bean, let's see how many existing handsets get the update. When OS6 comes out, let's see how slow and buggy your precious iPhone becomes. Be proactive, do what you need to do. But for God's sake do it and STFU already!
I'm sorry for my reply; I only wanted to express my concerns for the way Microsoft is dealing with the first and second generation devices. I wasn't trying to start a battle. Again I'm sorry, and your right it's hard to type and reply on a small screen without making mistakes..
mcsc said:
Apparently you missed the hole reason for the letter and if you could read between the lines and how long I have been with microsoft you would realize that I would never change platforms. That being said a a Engineer, microsoft could have released this differently. My letter was a point out that Bill, and Steve didn't even have the decently to reply.
And last if you can't reply with dignity using a acronym STFU, then you should post.
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(1) I wasn't referring to you.
(2) You should be embarrassed to sport your credentials so ostentatiously when you can't go a full sentence with either a spelling or grammatical error. Literally, not one correct sentence in your post.
(3) You and I have different methods to show angst. You write letters, I use acronyms. My dignity is intact.
BTW, I have credentials too. I have responsibilities within the healthcare field that you can't possibly fathom. My state & federal licensing credentials are quite impressive as well. I just like to let my hair down on these boards.
Gotta agree with fatclue...
The grammar in that post would be an embarrassment if the audience was 4th graders, and it was directed to 4 senior executives. Maybe the author should pursue a credential in business writing.
Also, why would anyone expect a reply from Bill Gates? Isn't he off feeding kids with malaria or something? I would hope that the rest have better things to do.
Respectfully,
Rev. Dr. Thaddeus James O'Pootertoot III, MD, JD, CPA, Ph.D, MBCP, MCA, MCAD, MCAS, MCDBA, MCDST, MCITP, MCLC, MCM, MCNE, MCP, MCP+I, MCP+SB, MCP+SB, MCPD, MCSA, MCSD, MCSD, MCSE, MCSE+I, MCT, MCTS, MCTs, MOS, MOUS, and all-around nice guy
:good::good::good::good::good:
@mcsc: I see your mistake: you think that because the iPhone 3GS will receive "iOS6" that means it'll be receiving the same OS as the later iPhones. I get the mistake--I made it myself, once.
But the fact is this: iPhone 3GS will NOT be receiving the same OS as later models. It'll show the same VERSION number--merely a string of text--but in no sense can it be called "the same OS." Instead, it contains a subset of what the newer version of the OS (which, let's face it, is itself a minor iteration of a stale OS) will have on newer devices, and if you want to get the full set of features, you WILL have to buy the iPhone 5, make no mistake. Even 4S will lack some of the features that iOS 6 will deliver to iPhone 5.
Essentially, Microsoft and Apple do the same thing, but with a clear distinction: Apple tells a lie-"look! We're giving you the latest OS!", and Microsoft tells the truth--"Sorry, your device won't support the new OS, but we'll make sure you get a few of its features."
The question is: do you prefer a pretty lie or a less pretty truth?
Your so right, I didn't look at it this way. I am quite happy with my phone and getting the windows phone 7.8 update, I just thought that microsoft should have released it as windows phone 8 for everyone, minas the enhancements that the first and second generation devices didn't support.
Forget about the 3GS, how old is it, really?
iPhone 4 and iPhone 4S, one year apart. The only thing the 4 didn't receive when the 4S came out was Siri, one exclusive feature for new model. If you want to look at the 3GS, it lacked facetime, one feature announced with the iPhone 4.
Here MS and Nokia have, what? Soon to be 6 months old L900 before a major update. What'll it receive? only one new visual feature while the functional rest is left out vs. "hey we are saving one new feature for our new model." Don't quote me where I got WP 7.8 only has the startscreen, if you want to believe WP and Nokia it's on you, not me, I'm done believing. What's more? the 3GS, while being 3 years old (released June 2009), is not considered a beta device and it served well, it still retains some value. Lumia 900? From $99 to free in 2 months (I don't count the $100 credits post launch), much like a feature phone. Plus, the thing is hyped this and that despite the OS isn't fully matured at this point of the competition, while iOS and Android can out-function WP any way. If not for loyalty and hope, who have been buying WP up until 6/20? After this treatment, I know many will be very skeptical about buying WP8. I myself will wait until WP8 truly establishes itself as a complete OS before buying. Can you confidently recommend WP? I know I no longer can't.
And before someone tells me to go buy an iOS or Android, think again. Is there anyone to tell people to "go buy a WP"? MS and Nokia, i am sure, don't want their consumer base to tell others to buy products from their primary competitors. iOS and Android don't care, because no one says go buy a WP. People would just be like, "what's that?," anyway. If WP users think the other consumers are missing out goodies in WP, then MS and Nokia are missing out their market share.
jasongw said:
@mcsc: I see your mistake: you think that because the iPhone 3GS will receive "iOS6" that means it'll be receiving the same OS as the later iPhones. I get the mistake--I made it myself, once.
But the fact is this: iPhone 3GS will NOT be receiving the same OS as later models. It'll show the same VERSION number--merely a string of text--but in no sense can it be called "the same OS." Instead, it contains a subset of what the newer version of the OS (which, let's face it, is itself a minor iteration of a stale OS) will have on newer devices, and if you want to get the full set of features, you WILL have to buy the iPhone 5, make no mistake. Even 4S will lack some of the features that iOS 6 will deliver to iPhone 5.
Essentially, Microsoft and Apple do the same thing, but with a clear distinction: Apple tells a lie-"look! We're giving you the latest OS!", and Microsoft tells the truth--"Sorry, your device won't support the new OS, but we'll make sure you get a few of its features."
The question is: do you prefer a pretty lie or a less pretty truth?
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Click to collapse