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Coming from M7 I know it's camera limitations and one thing I was expecting that shifting away from Ultra Pixel sensor would mean a much better performance. Unfortunately looking at the images from Barcelona I was scratching my head if what I saw was M9 images. The lower light photos in my opinion look quite bad. Lots of artifact, nasty noise, blotches of unprocessed information. So to say about normal daylight images though not as bad but still below average. So what's your take on this matter? Will the software update sort it out , is it worth waiting for couple of months? I don't think I am going to upgrade to M9 which I sincerely want to. Camera is deal breaker for me.
I honestly wouldn't base an opinion of this device with its current software situation, its gonna get hot, this is a pre release model. Also I bet its been on charge all day with the screen on, tester after tester messing with it. Not to mention the kernel and rom probably aren't optimized to deal with heavy load, I can see HTC making this a great device with further updates, I look forward to having it.
nebulaoperator said:
Coming from M7 I know it's camera limitations and one thing I was expecting that shifting away from Ultra Pixel sensor would mean a much better performance. Unfortunately looking at the images from Barcelona I was scratching my head if what I saw was M9 images. The lower light photos in my opinion look quite bad. Lots of artifact, nasty noise, blotches of unprocessed information. So to say about normal daylight images though not as bad but still below average. So what's your take on this matter? Will the software update sort it out , is it worth waiting for couple of months? I don't think I am going to upgrade to M9 which I sincerely want to. Camera is deal breaker for me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're not the only one making a question out of the camera performance of the M9. The big issues with the new sensor is the increased resolution of 20mp vs the 4mp on the HTC One M8, which (as you noticed) makes images in low-light conditions quite bad. This has nothing to do with HTC though, it's the same story for everyone who cramps in such a high resolution in a sensor that is way to small. A normal DSLR camera (Canon 600D, Nikon D7100 etc.) struggles with the same thing although they got a massively bigger sensor to cope with the resolution. Based on this, I guess they may be able to fix the daylight quality quite a bit along the way. The low-light however, not as convinced due to the issues I said above. They may very well be able to make it BETTER, but not as good as it was with the M8 in my mind. Just look at the Note 4 and Z3 (and Z4 I guess) with massive resolutions on their cameras aswell, the Note 4 (16mp) is brilliant in daylight although it's worse in low-light compared to the iPhone 6 (which got a 8mp sensor). It will get better along the way, but I don't think we will ever see the M9 do low-light shots without some of the issues you asked about, like artifacts, noise and details failing to stand out. Although I do hope I am wrong about it
I hope Jonny too but I can't entirely rely on hope here. Can you give me reasonable example of how HTC improved camera in the past? I am not here to bash the brand that I love but I want to be reasonable. I still have purple fringe on my M7 for that reason I sent it back just a couple of days ago.
n3tr0m said:
You're not the only one making a question out of the camera performance of the M9. The big issues with the new sensor is the increased resolution of 20mp vs the 4mp on the HTC One M8, which (as you noticed) makes images in low-light conditions quite bad. This has nothing to do with HTC though, it's the same story for everyone who cramps in such a high resolution in a sensor that is way to small. A normal DSLR camera (Canon 600D, Nikon D7100 etc.) struggles with the same thing although they got a massively bigger sensor to cope with the resolution. Based on this, I guess they may be able to fix the daylight quality quite a bit along the way. The low-light however, not as convinced due to the issues I said above. They may very well be able to make it BETTER, but not as good as it was with the M8 in my mind. Just look at the Note 4 and Z3 (and Z4 I guess) with massive resolutions on their cameras aswell, the Note 4 (16mp) is brilliant in daylight although it's worse in low-light compared to the iPhone 6 (which got a 8mp sensor). It will get better along the way, but I don't think we will ever see the M9 do low-light shots without some of the issues you asked about, like artifacts, noise and details failing to stand out. Although I do hope I am wrong about it
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Click to collapse
As far as I know M9 has Toshiba sensor which being used for the Nokia High end Lumias which perform quite well. The other thing is I can set my camera permanently to 16 Mp or even less so to relief sensor from strain if that helps to get a better image. It's perfectly fine to have 8MP, personally speaking. For instance Iphone 6 Plus currently outperforms pretty much most of the phones in the market.
nebulaoperator said:
As far as I know M9 has Toshiba sensor which being used for the Nokia High end Lumias which perform quite well. The other thing is I can set my camera permanently to 16 Mp or even less so to relief sensor from strain if that helps to get a better image. It's perfectly fine to have 8MP, personally speaking. For instance Iphone 6 Plus currently outperforms pretty much most of the phones in the market.
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Click to collapse
Sure it is developed by Toshiba, i am not sure if its the same they use in the Lumia series though. The fact that "reducing" the camera down to 16mp or even less to make the images better is something I doubt highly especially with a mobile. I dont see how that would change the outcome when it's still a 20mp physically in there. Might be wrong here, but I don't see right away how that would make images in low-light any better. In my experience with the Z1 it didn't help much dumping the resolution from 20mp down to 8mp (which was the auto-mode setting). Another thing I see as a potential issue for HTC compared to Sony is the fact that Sony makes and develops their sensor themself, and that should make it easier for them to optimize it and make it better. HTC on the other hand does not make it's own sensor and has "learn" or whatever I should say the Toshiba sensor compared to Sony who made them by themself. That should, at least in my eyes, give Sony an advantage in the optimization part. Which they never figured out properly in the Z1 (and Z2 & Z3?) as far as I know.
Let me look in the future..
*starts rubbing my Crystal balls...*
.....
It's getting warmed....
Okay I am seeing something...
The answer for which you are looking for lies within you. You may not know it now but you will in the near future. The key is to follow your heart and don't make weird threads on xda.
Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk
I am looking forward to the M9 as i currently own a M7. To the point, after M7 came out nokia came out with Lumia 925, which had 8MP sensor and took better low light photos than the UltraPixel, One would think that in the last 2 years Htc would have gotten better or improved the MP count of the UltraPixel sensor, but that didn't happen.
As far as the current 16MP sensor is concerned, i hope that reducing the resolution slightly say 8MP and increasing the exposure/shutter time would atleast be able to provide results similar to UltraPixle in a 8MP resolution.
n3tr0m said:
Sure it is developed by Toshiba, i am not sure if its the same they use in the Lumia series though. The fact that "reducing" the camera down to 16mp or even less to make the images better is something I doubt highly especially with a mobile. I dont see how that would change the outcome when it's still a 20mp physically in there. Might be wrong here, but I don't see right away how that would make images in low-light any better. In my experience with the Z1 it didn't help much dumping the resolution from 20mp down to 8mp (which was the auto-mode setting). Another thing I see as a potential issue for HTC compared to Sony is the fact that Sony makes and develops their sensor themself, and that should make it easier for them to optimize it and make it better. HTC on the other hand does not make it's own sensor and has "learn" or whatever I should say the Toshiba sensor compared to Sony who made them by themself. That should, at least in my eyes, give Sony an advantage in the optimization part. Which they never figured out properly in the Z1 (and Z2 & Z3?) as far as I know.
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Click to collapse
I am looking at some oversampling info on wikipedia. Thats exactly what Nokia did with pure view ,for instance, combining pixels into cluster to make one better pixel with improved characteristics . Then technically speaking reducing mp size can enable sensor to perform better. Thanks for bringing it out about Sony. Your thoughts so much parallel of mine about they inability to nail their camera performance taking into account they sensor plus all experience. This could due to the reason they don't actually work close enough to Sony photographic department and more or less on they own. Not sharing the love between themselve From my observation it's a lot about soft optimization, as you mention in your post , and here I can not to finish my post without mentioning 1+1 camera transformation that occurred in period from release date up until now. Camera performance is very good.
RaXxaa said:
I am looking forward to the M9 as i currently own a M7. To the point, after M7 came out nokia came out with Lumia 925, which had 8MP sensor and took better low light photos than the UltraPixel, One would think that in the last 2 years Htc would have gotten better or improved the MP count of the UltraPixel sensor, but that didn't happen.
As far as the current 16MP sensor is concerned, i hope that reducing the resolution slightly say 8MP and increasing the exposure/shutter time would atleast be able to provide results similar to UltraPixle in a 8MP resolution.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If they do something like Nokia did with oversampling pixel it might work ( just an idea) but taking into account they didn't succeed in ultra pixel technology , given two years, I can only hope. I don't really know much about new toshiba sensor and what is it capable of.
badboy47 said:
Let me look in the future..
*starts rubbing my Crystal balls...*
.....
It's getting warmed....
Okay I am seeing something...
The answer for which you are looking for lies within you. You may not know it now but you will in the near future. The key is to follow your heart and don't make weird threads on xda.
Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
"Weird "is a strong word but taking into account the amount of humour you used in your reply I take it lightly with a smile on my face
nebulaoperator said:
I am looking at some oversampling info on wikipedia. Thats exactly what Nokia did with pure view ,for instance, combining pixels into cluster to make one better pixel with improved characteristics . Then technically speaking reducing mp size can enable sensor to perform better. Thanks for bringing it out about Sony. Your thoughts so much parallel of mine about they inability to nail their camera performance taking into account they sensor plus all experience. This could due to the reason they don't actually work close enough to Sony photographic department and more or less on they own. Not sharing the love between themselve From my observation it's a lot about soft optimization, as you mention in your post , and here I can not to finish my post without mentioning 1+1 camera transformation that occurred in period from release date up until now. Camera performance is very good.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Alrighty then. Thats an awesome feature! Really hope that HTC can make the same magic as Nokia did with their Lumia series based on what you found out on Wikipedia etc. I will be more than pleased if the camera on the M9 outperforms the camera placed in the Z4, that should tell everybody that HTC did an amazing job optimizing it when they beat Sony and their own sensor
I've looked at some comparison photo's from gsmarena and personally I don't think it's much worse than the iPhone 6 shots they posted.
Think the day light pictures will probably be great, but the low light ones may be not so much. Without being any company's fanboy there is a great chance that the M9 camera won't be the best.
I have no idea what HTC did but images are getting very good ...at least in this series : http://www.sogi.com.tw/mobile/articles/6239319-HTC+One+M9、M8兩代旗艦機相機實拍對決！
Hello,
Today when taking photos I've noticed that light sources like lightbulbs and chandeliers appear twice in photo. It's hard to describe, but attached photos should clarify what I'm talking about.
I've checked on other phone, Honor 8X and it's same.
And here's my question to you: do you observe the same behaviour, or my device is flawed?
Shogun91 said:
Hello,
Today when taking photos I've noticed that light sources like lightbulbs and chandeliers appear twice in photo. It's hard to describe, but attached photos should clarify what I'm talking about.
I've checked on other phone, Honor 8X and it's same.
And here's my question to you: do you observe the same behaviour, or my device is flawed?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's odd....I have to see if my phone does the same.
Are you on Auto mode?
SantinoInc said:
That's odd....I have to see if my phone does the same.
Are you on Auto mode?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, I'm on Auto. I've gone also through pro mode settings, but none of them seem to reduce it.
Shogun91 said:
Yes, I'm on Auto. I've gone also through pro mode settings, but none of them seem to reduce it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And Honor 8x does the same? Thought that the camera lenses cover has some reflecting residue like oil etc...it is strange.
mzsquared said:
And Honor 8x does the same? Thought that the camera lenses cover has some reflecting residue like oil etc...it is strange.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, Honor does the same. Actually I've just checked LG V30 and Huawei P10 Lite, and it's almost the same.
I'm kinda shocked I haven't noticed it before.
Can you please check on your phones?
I don't know if it's worth using warranty with my Note 10+ if it's the general issue.
I took a direct photo of my desk lamp and there's nothing wrong, I'll try again later tonight using different angles/sources.
I googled it and this problem is widely commented on:
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=phone+camera+ghost+reflections+of+light+sources
mzsquared said:
I took a direct photo of my desk lamp and there's nothing wrong, I'll try again later tonight using different angles/sources.
I googled it and this problem is widely commented on:
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=phone+camera+ghost+reflections+of+light+sources
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you for the link. So it seems like this can be considered "normal".
However I'm still curious what will be result of your tests. Please share what was the outcome, whether you were able to reproduce this.
It depends on the angle, sometimes you will see this, some times not, I have seen this in dedicated cameras as well
Thank you for your response.
As I'm testing it more, it seems very hard to take photo without ghost lights when not pointing straight into light source, attached few more sample files.
Maybe I'll get over it, if not I'll give it a go, and use warranty, they'll do something with this or not.
Hello,
That's amazing to see this post today, just the day i noticed exactely the same.
I noticed that when doing a video test, through windows stores (the room was in the dark, light going thru the little holes in the stores). I had exactely the same kind of little lights reproduced in the left quarter of the frame.
I thought it was due to the shape of the lens, some kind of light reflexion on it, but now i am wondering because that is the EXACT same thing as your description.
I would not send to warranty... since i had exactely the same 'problem'. I believe it is due to lens design.
mafy31 said:
Hello,
That's amazing to see this post today, just the day i noticed exactely the same.
I noticed that when doing a video test, through windows stores (the room was in the dark, light going thru the little holes in the stores). I had exactely the same kind of little lights reproduced in the left quarter of the frame.
I thought it was due to the shape of the lens, some kind of light reflexion on it, but now i am wondering because that is the EXACT same thing as your description.
I would not send to warranty... since i had exactely the same 'problem'. I believe it is due to lens design.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I believe you have the same, but don't know how often you see these lights.
I can understand this can be seen in some conditions, but as I'm testing it more, I almost can't take any photo without it.
I've looked through YouTube reviews with some night shots and can't see it there.
Attaching last two samples, to not spam this thread, as maybe I'm now oversensitive on this
I'll go to the store today, and see what they'll say.
Shogun91 said:
Thank you for the link. So it seems like this can be considered "normal".
However I'm still curious what will be result of your tests. Please share what was the outcome, whether you were able to reproduce this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Went on tonight to my favorite night photography places and the full moon was the perfect source of light to look into the "ghosting" thing. It's really easy to see what's happening with the light when moving the camera around its axis. Note 10 has a rather thick glass covering/protecting the lenses and the light entering the camera is being distorted by the inner and outer surfaces of the glass plate depending on the angle of entry.
I was having really boring Sunday today so I'm glad I found something to do because of that, and I even made a little drawing using the S-Pen(love the s-pen!) to illustrate directional changes of light while entering/exiting a medium of different densities (air/glass)
We know that light will get reflected by a glass at certain degree because of different density between air and glass. Basic physics. Our camera is made of multiple layers of lens with variables angle. So if 99% of light goes through the lens, 1% get reflected. We won't see it for normal light. But if the light source is very bright, even 1% will be visible on photo.
That's my hypothesis.
Happens all the time when facing a lamp light directly, with wide and zoom lens. But seems to be less visible with ultra-wide.
This looks like an internal reflection within the camera it's self.
Internal reflections are common on multi-element lens.
You pay big bucks for coated elements and engineering to suppress this effect in pro lens.
Internal reflections can also happen between the cmos sensor and any of the internal optics.
In the case the cover element is a prime suspect.
Lol, you can thousands for a pro shooting system and you will still find this.
Hello,
I have a silly question but I am very curious about it so I thought I would ask the experts .
Would a ported Google Camera take advantage of the S20 Ultra hardware or would it produce exactly the same photos as on Pixel? For example, would the Portrait mode improve for photos from the rear camera since S20 Ultra has ToF sensor and Pixel doesn't?
Or would pictures in general improve assuming there would be pixel binning from S20 Ultra and Google's HDR+?
Thank you for your insight
Rule of thumb is GCAM will always increase quality, Historically a custom build would need to be built and will most likely need root to take advantage of all 3 cameras. Most likely it will only be main cam.
Enigma_cpl03 said:
Rule of thumb is GCAM will always increase quality, Historically a custom build would need to be built and will most likely need root to take advantage of all 3 cameras. Most likely it will only be main cam.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So essentially while one could use GCam in certain situations it would never be a 100% replacement of the Samsung camera app, right? That's a shame, from the S20 Ultra reviews the picture quality (HDR) looked quite inconsistent which is not something I ever experienced with my Pixel, hence the idea of using GCam with S20.
I was especially curious about portrait mode from the rear camera with ToF which my Pixel doesn't have -> hopefully improved object separation, and Night Sight (if pixel binning is done on hardware level + software processing from Google).
I'm guessing pixel binning is done on hardware, so you'll only get 12MP photos from the main sensor using GCam. Historically only the main sensor + wide angle are exposed via camera2 API by Samsung, so those lenses will likely work fine. Remains to be seen if telephoto is exposed as well, GCam on that hardware zoom could be dope.
kvell36 said:
I'm guessing pixel binning is done on hardware, so you'll only get 12MP photos from the main sensor using GCam. Historically only the main sensor + wide angle are exposed via camera2 API by Samsung, so those lenses will likely work fine. Remains to be seen if telephoto is exposed as well, GCam on that hardware zoom could be dope.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Pixel binning is done on the SW side. You can't change the size of the sensor hardware wise. It's always a 108mp sensor, and the SW bins it down to 12mp.
VZTech said:
Pixel binning is done on the SW side. You can't change the size of the sensor hardware wise. It's always a 108mp sensor, and the SW bins it down to 12mp.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well yea it's done in the software but I mean to GCam it'll likely show up as a 12MP sensor due to the firmware Samsung will bake into the ROM, meaning for our purposes it's essentially at hardware level. In their camera app the default is 12MP so that will likely be the format exposed. You see this with the selfie cameras in current Samsung phones which are 10MP but cropped to 6.5MP by default, and that's the only resolution we get in 3rd party apps.
kvell36 said:
Well yea it's done in the software but I mean to GCam it'll likely show up as a 12MP sensor due to the firmware Samsung will bake into the ROM, meaning for our purposes it's essentially at hardware level. In their camera app the default is 12MP so that will likely be the format exposed. You see this with the selfie cameras in current Samsung phones which are 10MP but cropped to 6.5MP by default, and that's the only resolution we get in 3rd party apps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm no expert, but I'm not sure this is the case. Guess time will tell.
Do you know if Samsung offer some custom camera SDK?
I mean Camera2 May be insufficient for the 108mp nonabinning sensor. Your average demosaic algorithm will make pitiful mess out of it.
So I think anything but dedicated software will make mess out of the camera.
Ideally one would like to set different exposure timing for the 9 sub pixels and do some weird maths to get large sensor like dynamic range for example. That is what is hot about this sensor. Running stupid software written for regular 12m sensor is waste.
I just took some photos at Best Buy, dont think Gcam is needed. Pics looked really good.
My original comment hurt someone's feelings. I have edited it because of that.
_Dennis_ said:
But, all the reviews are crap and you canceled your phone.....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why are you a wiseasz? I said i was going to return it, if it wasn't any good. Your post is is unnecessary.
My original comment hurt someone's feelings. I have edited it because of that.
plant_ said:
So essentially while one could use GCam in certain situations it would never be a 100% replacement of the Samsung camera app, right? That's a shame, from the S20 Ultra reviews the picture quality (HDR) looked quite inconsistent which is not something I ever experienced with my Pixel, hence the idea of using GCam with S20.
I was especially curious about portrait mode from the rear camera with ToF which my Pixel doesn't have -> hopefully improved object separation, and Night Sight (if pixel binning is done on hardware level + software processing from Google).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In my opinion, it is way too early to put much stock in any reviews being done on the S20 Ultra camera. It is so early - only a few handsets out right now - more will be shipped this week - and like most past samsung devices, Updates that improve and often fix issues that were discovered pre launch or even post launch, will surely address the issues (most if not all) that have been raised by these early reviews.
Bottom line, Samsung is putting a lot into the success of this phone and most of that success will be driven by it's camera. You can be sure that Samsung will do everything possible to make it the best that it can be. IMHO.
Is there currently a version compatible with the s20 ultra?
Eckono42 said:
Is there currently a version compatible with the s20 ultra?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
try Urnyx05-v2.3
https://www.celsoazevedo.com/files/android/google-camera/f/changelog1016/
I tested previously on a demo unit (snapdragon); the main (12mp) and ultrawide lenses seemed to capture and save images; tele lens did not toggle though
Thanks I sure will.
I think if eventually will, the level of functionally ported over will be a different thing.
After degraded battery my one year old 3a XL generated new stuff to rouch my nerves...
Shooting mainly blue sky found a dim spot on one and the same place. The reason why it wqs not detected is its harder to see on more complex scenes.
Tried to clear the lenses ... nothing.
I've done a picture to illustrate the issue - attached.
Anyone with similar issue? What do you think it is - dust, defect on lenses / sensor ?
looks like dust on the sensor. Unfortunatelly I don't think I can open it and clean so I will rely on software correction
No matter what I do I cannot get any of the lens or sensors to save without binning... They go down to 12.5 MP in any mode or setting or camera app. Is this a software bug? Why is Google forcing binning in non-low light situations!?! This this just me?
Same here. I'm sure it's on purpose, but I do mean to some time do research as to why binning is enforced in every situation.
Same in RAW?
georgiapi said:
Same in RAW?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep, same in RAW too.
Quoted from this article...
Here
"It doesn’t actually shoot 50MP images, but rather it uses pixel binning, which combines the information of four imaging pixels on the camera sensor into one superpixel. This pixel binning process effectively turns the main 50MP sensor into a 12.5MP sensor that captures 150% more light than the previous Pixel 5."
Like I get that the binning and all and why, but what would be super awesome if someone figures out how to software unlock the option for full "un-binned" resolution... Since that is likely what Google will do in a few years thought FW.
Yeah Lou from unbox therapy from his P6P video said it does the pixel binning and actually doesn't shoot in 50mp
Uh every single review I've watched or read specifically mentions binning down to 12.5 MP no matter what. What made you think you can save a 50MP?
nxt said:
Uh every single review I've watched or read specifically mentions binning down to 12.5 MP no matter what. What made you think you can save a 50MP?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Some phones do let you take photos at the default sensor size without binning, some phones turn binning off to get an optical zoom via cropping without the need for another lens, i suspect this is how the Pro is getting respectable 20x photos from a 4x optical lens to be honest, a mixutre of cropping and SuperRes.
yeah samsungl ets you shoot RAW without binning. shame Google dont
I thought I heard somewhere the binning is hardware binning on this device not software based which may explain why.
I've read it doesn't give the option for full 50MB pictures which I hope is changed soon
Nekromantik said:
yeah samsungl ets you shoot RAW without binning. shame Google dont
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Whats the big deal with raw? I am a wedding photographer and yeah raw has saved my bacon more than once but my DSLRs don't have Googles computational photography behind them and the overwhelming majority of the time there is nothing to save, the software does a sterling job.
MrBelter said:
Whats the big deal with raw? I am a wedding photographer and yeah raw has saved my bacon more than once but my DSLRs don't have Googles computational photography behind them and the overwhelming majority of the time there is nothing to save, the software does a sterling job.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
For photo pros raw 50MP image would be amazing.
Plus I agree with some people that the Google Photo AI was great on previous pixels as they were small lenses and not great but now you got 50MP large sensor you dont need as much computation processing.
I took a raw photo on one of my DSLRs with a £1,149 L lens on it and the same photo on my Pixel 5 and i could not get the DSLR photo anywhere near as good as the Pixel 5 shot, you could tell the DSLR image came from a much larger sensor but the image was much noiser as i pushed it to try to match the dynamic range of the Pixel 5 shot.
Lots of possible variances there. The phone does it all for you and doctors the hell out of the image. And does a good job, for what it is.
A DSLR requires the photographer to set up the capture. I shoot a Canon 7D Mark II across several L-Lenses and although phone cams are doing well for point and shot, don't chit yourself trying to say they are better.
this camera system just flat out SUCKS!