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Will "trickle-charge" kernels end up damaging our phones? *UPDATE: 8 CASUALTIES!*
I installed one of these amazing new kernels the other day and loved it. I was even able to keep 100% for about 30 minutes of usage and I was amazed. Yet today I checked Phandroid and an article from an XDA contributer came up:
http://phandroid.com/2010/12/25/you...is-lying-to-you-and-its-not-such-a-bad-thing/
In the article he explained (from what I understand) that he thinks knows it is a GOOD THING that phones aren't programmed to allow the battery to keep charging at the real 100% because it would end up damaging the battery in the end, much like how many of the early cell phone batterys would get damaged.
Until I find out the answer I (sadly) switched back to my old kernel, as I would rather be safe than sorry, at least until I find out for sure.
Any responses?
UPDATES:
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CASUALTY LIST (please PM me any casualties, the list seems to be growing in numbers rapidly)
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Battery Emitting "Smoke" : http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=904577
Battery Failure during Trickle Charge: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=900412
SBC killed my battery: http://forum.androidcentral.com/htc-evo-4g-roms-hacks/51972-sbc-killed-my-battery.html
MIUI + Savage = dead battery http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=10422140&postcount=9 and http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=10432778&postcount=139
ANOTHER dead battery http://forum.androidcentral.com/htc-evo-4g-roms-hacks/51972-sbc-killed-my-battery-2.html#post517436
Battery loses charge after extended time with sbc kernel http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=10431788&postcount=49
Another one bites the dust... http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=10457753&postcount=162
COUNT ME IN http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=10469184&postcount=174
Current Count: 8
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Various Dev Reactions:
Ziggy's editorial on WHY these kernels shouldn't exist and are dangerous (written before the new epidemic of dead batteries):http://www.ziggy471.com/2011/01/02/overcharging-batteries/
Netarchy's post explaining why he's REMOVING all SBC kernels from his page: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=10421166&postcount=6185
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THIS IS A CALL TO ALL ROM/KERNAL DEVELOPERS: Please don't include this feature in our favorite roms. I have been having to switch Kernels on my latest roms becuase I don't want to risk killing my battery (and that is a PAIN)
My $0.02:
I trust these developers on this site ALOT. What they have managed to do with the software is amazing. However, software is software. These trickle-charge kernels were amazing SOFTWARE-WISE. However, the effects of charges on batteries are not your specialty, so while it may be amazing that you all developed these kernels, there effect on the battery is not alright. I (sorry) trust an industry of battery/software engineers over some basement-developers who like pushing the limits (Pushing the limits is awesome, just not when it comes to batteries lol)
hmsheen10 said:
I installed one of these amazing new kernels the other day and loved it. I was even able to keep 100% for about 30 minutes of usage and I was amazed. Yet today I checked Phandroid and an article from an XDA contributer came up:
http://phandroid.com/2010/12/25/you...is-lying-to-you-and-its-not-such-a-bad-thing/
In the article he explained (from what I understand) that he thinks knows it is a GOOD THING that phones aren't programmed to allow the battery to keep charging at the real 100% because it would end up damaging the battery in the end, much like how many of the early cell phone batterys would get damaged.
Until I find out the answer I (sadly) switched back to my old kernel, as I would rather be safe than sorry, at least until I find out for sure.
Any responses?
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Yup, there is a reason why all the phone makers have them charge like that and there is also a reason why putting custom roms on your phone voids your warranty.
Remember hearing about all those ipod and lap top batteries that liked to blow up?
Edit: he's also forgetting that when the battery gets close to full the voltage starts changing less and less, to the point that it is nearly impossible to accurately tell how much battery you have when it is over 80% full
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
i knew it was too good to be true :\
yea i get amazing battery life with this trickle charging only when i leave it on charger for around 7+ hours. Sounds like i should stop using that then damn
Edit: didnt mean to quote anyone
From what I read the article didnt reveal any specifics to if and when it will damage a battery.The article seemed to suggest that because battery manufacturers changed how they implimented charging it means that trickle charging is bad. It does not have enough variables in this observation to come to any conclusion. If advancements have been made in the battery industry you could also come to the conlcusion that trickle charging is or would be ok.
I am not trying to go against the article or this thread but simply wondering if after a thorough evaluation of the battery capacity after say 3 months using trickle charging and one without trickle charging we give an conclusion.
If need be I will run my phone with trickle charging, will someone else volunteer there phone for research?
For the extra bump I get every day now Ill by a new battery for 15 bucks a little more often. Its worth it for me YMMV
Yep, trickle charging is bad for the battery. Rememebr when all those laptop batteries were catching on fire? Same thing could potentially happen if your battery is not charged properly. They charge the batteries the way they do for a reason. That reason is relatively long battery life and safety.
Here is a good article on the subject.
I think that the makers of all these new kernels than should put up a warning specifically pertaining to the dangers of the kernel
Sent from my EVO
Quoting ms79723 :
Will this damage my battery?
This charging method doesnt damage the batteries at all. It shouldnt. Because our batteries dont even charge up to 4.2V without the tweak. They charge up to 4.2V the first charge, then drop all the way down to 4.08V or something and then does these weird short burst chargers to 4.1-4.125V. Thats why there's the rapid drop in the morning. Because your voltage is actually at 4.125V and that's not 100%. So with this tweak, the charger keeps charging until you're at 4.2V (or the maximum voltage your battery can get to) and then it trickle chargers while at that voltage. The charger itself never turns off. Thats not a bad thing. Because as you reach your actual voltage, the mA decreases. Which is why our phones will never be damaged. You ever want to know why its really easy to charge from 50-80% but the charge from 90-100% seems to take so long? Its because from 50% the mA going into the phone is in the 600's. Once it reaches 90%, the mA is around 150 and once it reaches 95% you're looking at 90mA. The phone when absolutely idle uses anywhere from 60-120mA, even when on the charger. So charging from 90% to 100% takes longer becaus the mA going into the phone isnt always higher than the mA you're losing. This is the same with charging past 100%. As you leave the phone on the charger with this tweak, you're mA will decrease from 50mA all the way down to 2mA overnight. But on the charger you're losing about 30-60mA already, so you'll never overcharge the battery, in best case scenarios, you'll just maintain the voltage of 4.2 or around 4.2V.
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Unfortunately, if you read their thread, they say they disagree that any harm is being done.
Personally, I am not a battery expert, though I do have some experience with them in the EV car field, but my understanding is these batteries will be damaged if continuously held at a full charge. That is why the manufacturers design the system to full charge, then discharge to approximately 90% and then charge again, continuously cycling the battery.
From what I have read and from talking to the guys who design Li-ion batteries, they say that prolonging the time that the battery is at full charge significantly reduces battery life. Over time it can also lead to overheating resulting in an unsafe battery. For those reasons, virtually all properly designed charging circuits for Li-ion batteries are set up to let the battery sit at full charge for the shortest time possible.
Vann's quote from the kernel thread proves my point, what it appears they are trying to do is hold the battery fully charged while it is on the charger. That might increase the amount of time you can run your phone in the short run. But in the long run it will kill the battery.
I suggest you guys RELAX and try to stick with the responsibility of handling your phone the easiest way possible. Being not the hardest way to learn, but you eventually find the way to start new each time you look at your phone. Just saying kinda like when I have my EVO, It is just peachy to have. I don't want to tear the skin or even puncture the screen. LOL Like a PEACH?
I'm imaginative today and well, I always try to keep my phone in cool conditions, for short say. I use Juice Defender with Ultimate Juice with a good nice kernel and ROM that suits it as it suits.
alekosy said:
I suggest you guys RELAX and try to stick with the responsibility of handling your phone the easiest way possible. Being not the hardest way to learn, but you eventually find the way to start new each time you look at your phone. Just saying kinda like when I have my EVO, It is just peachy to have. I don't want to tear the skin or even puncture the screen. LOL Like a PEACH?
I'm imaginative today and well, I always try to keep my phone in cool conditions, for short say. I use Juice Defender with Ultimate Juice with a good nice kernel and ROM that suits it as it suits.
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wtf.........?
Well its just like rooting and flashing custom roms, it may do this it may do that. If its such a concern don't use it. I'm using it and my phone doesn't take 7 hours to charge and it doesn't overheat at all, its a risk I am taking and I don't hold the developer responsible for it if something goes wrong. I understand the concern about this and I'm sure he will add a disclaimer.
wow and i was just starting to appreciate the new kernels. thanks for ruining it for me guys...
haha no i guess thanks for saving me....
dkdude36 said:
wow and i was just starting to appreciate the new kernels. thanks for ruining it for me guys...
haha no i guess thanks for saving me....
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Agreeeeeeeeeed!
wfrandy said:
Yep, trickle charging is bad for the battery. Rememebr when all those laptop batteries were catching on fire? Same thing could potentially happen if your battery is not charged properly. They charge the batteries the way they do for a reason. That reason is relatively long battery life and safety.
Here is a good article on the subject.
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This article is confusing because it says 2 different things:
1. The current "trickle charging" kernels are safe but we should be calling them "topping off" instead:
Full charge is attained after the voltage threshold has been reached and the current has dropped to 3% of the rated current or has leveled off.
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The kernels drop to 0mA at 4.20V, so the voltage threshold is reached and the current safely drops.
2. The kernel is not safe because it keeps the battery at 4.20V/cell continuously:
No trickle charge is applied because lithium-ion is unable to absorb overcharge. A continuous trickle charge above 4.05V/cell would causes plating of metallic lithium that could lead to instabilities and compromise safety. Instead, a brief topping charge is provided to compensate for the small self-discharge the battery and its protective circuit consume. Depending on the battery, a topping charge may be repeated once every 20 days.
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What am I missing?
guys... this is from the article put up:
When charging above 4.30V, the cell causes plating of metallic lithium on the anode; the cathode material becomes an oxidizing agent, loses stability and releases oxygen. Overcharging causes the cell to heat up. If left unattended, the cell could vent with flame.
The "trickle charge" kernels never go near 4.30v, mine stops at 4.19. Also, the temperature during the "trickle" overnight is very low. after 8 hours of "trickling" my battery was at 30 degrees C. Only time will tell if the battery life is SLIGHTLY shortened from this charging, but it is in NO WAY NEAR exploding, catching fire, blah blah blah. Stop scaring people, read the articles you post yourself and actually look at what is going on in these kernels. You may surprise yourself!
Now, if you cant get a replacement battery because you live on the moon and want your battery life to stay 3 years instead of 2 1/2, then it is your choice to not use these kernels, but dont scare others away just because you don't want to partake.
aph said:
This article is confusing because it says 2 different things:
1. The current "trickle charging" kernels are safe but we should be calling them "topping off" instead:
The kernels drop to 0mA at 4.20V, so the voltage threshold is reached and the current safely drops.
2. The kernel is not safe because it keeps the battery at 4.20V/cell continuously:
What am I missing?
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hmsheen10 said:
wtf.........?
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Jfree3000 said:
Well its just like rooting and flashing custom roms, it may do this it may do that. If its such a concern don't use it. I'm using it and my phone doesn't take 7 hours to charge and it doesn't overheat at all, its a risk I am taking and I don't hold the developer responsible for it if something goes wrong. I understand the concern about this and I'm sure he will add a disclaimer.
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dkdude36 said:
wow and i was just starting to appreciate the new kernels. thanks for ruining it for me guys...
haha no i guess thanks for saving me....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hmsheen10 said:
Agreeeeeeeeeed!
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Click to collapse
LOL I don't know, but battery trickling isn't good to be heard to deal nicely with these EVOs, but If you wanna try to give it a run or a test on your own, be prepared that you voided your warranty.
alekosy said:
LOL I don't know, but battery trickling isn't good to be heard to deal nicely with these EVOs, but If you wanna try to give it a run or a test on your own, be prepared that you voided your warranty.
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Your warranty was void as soon as you were able to flash a kernel... seriously... (I still have had a screen replaced from separating though!)
Look! A brand new battery for your EVO for $2.92 shipped!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/1500-mAh-HTC-Ex...ccessories&hash=item4aa608f2c7#ht_3246wt_1198
I guess I don't care if I have to replace them... just as long as they last an extra couple of hours everyday...
You all know that there is NO WAY it can hurt the actual phone, right???
sd2649 said:
Your warranty was void as soon as you were able to flash a kernel... seriously... (I still have had a screen replaced from separating though!)
Look! A brand new battery for your EVO for $2.92 shipped!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/1500-mAh-HTC-Ex...ccessories&hash=item4aa608f2c7#ht_3246wt_1198
I guess I don't care if I have to replace them... just as long as they last an extra couple of hours everyday...
You all know that there is NO WAY it can hurt the actual phone, right???
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And try JuiceDefender with UltimateJuice, the 2nd app is a small fee paid app for donation, but it's very useful with the right kernel and rom for your liking. Trust on that, I think everyone would probably agree that this way would be the safest legit way.
This is a bit of reading but if you have the time it's worth it. Basically what it's showing is deep sleep doesn't save battery power, neither do lower voltages. There's a trove of information in this post and the spreadsheet.
If I understand amps, watts, and voltage correctly it makes sense that lower voltages would do nothing to save battery since wattage is what really drains a battery. Not saying we should all go and crank up the voltage in our kernels carelessly, that still creates problems but if your device is having stability issues then try upping the voltage a bit. It seems it won't effect battery life.
The post
The spreadsheet
I take no credit for the research or anything to do with it. Just merely reposting it here for you to read.
That doesn't make much sense to me. Watts is voltage x amperage. The only explanation I can think of to back that up is that maybe our processors pull more amps if we lower the voltage to make up for it.
Sent from my SPH-D710 using XDA App
That's a possibility. So maybe the phone is demanding a higher flow of the current per unit of time since the current itself doesn't have enough 'pressure'. Either way, the results are showing something interesting going on that negates the usefulness of lower voltages.
Basic Electricity.
Direct Current:
Amperage does not change in Volts DC, no matter what it should remain the same at every component in a device.
I*E=W (Amps * Voltage = Watts).
Alternating Current
Voltage does not change in Volts AC, no matter what it should remain the same at every component of a device.
I*E=W
So the only way to decrease Watts in real life is to decrease Volts DC, or Amps in AC.
The only other thing that may help decrease power consumption is heat and transmission delays.
Reference:
Check out this web page... I love HowStuffWorks!!!
http://computer.howstuffworks.com/question307.htm
I question the Advanced Electronics of a ARM proccessor. Maybe when we are talking GHz (Frequency) we may be talking about a controlled AC signal. In this case, we may have to change our view of basic electronics by looking at a fixed Voltage (Voltage does not change) but Amperage can be changed. By this I mean no matter what change in voltage we try to apply through software, the hardware does not allow us to change it due to physics or basic OHM's law for AC circuits. That would be the only reason I could see for under-clocking not affecting power consumption.
I am not sure of what goes on electrically in our phones so can only read, research and take an educated guess. I may be wrong. BTW I don't have battery problems so I don't really care about them at the moment.... but who knows in the future. I do love electronics though, so if someone does know more about this topic, I would love to understand more about how ARM processors electronically work.
I am an electrical engineer, and putting any device in a low power "sleep" mode where only a "lookout" stays awake so that it can wake everything else up as needed saves power and therefore increases battery. The article is wrong. That is all.
Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk
kingsway8605 said:
I am an electrical engineer, and putting any device in a low power "sleep" mode where only a "lookout" stays awake so that it can wake everything else up as needed saves power and therefore increases battery. The article is wrong. That is all.
Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk
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AGREED MY BROTHERIN
Sent From My Epic Touch 3g
So is the testing method wrong or are the results wrong, or both? Not disagreeing with you, I'd just like to know since it all seems pretty legit and there was a decent amount of time put into the testing.
I understand the point of deep sleep but if the processor is still on, isn't it still going to pull the same current regardless? According to the results it's pulling the same current regardless of the actual voltage so wouldn't the same be true for deep sleep?
EDIT: Just to add to that. Our phones are never really 'asleep'. There is no true sleep mode given the fact that there's always something going on in the background under normal conditions. Updates, push notifications, sync notifications, communication between the towers/wifi and our baseband, logging, apps doing things. To me that doesn't sound like a sleep mode - at least not the same as what I think about when I put my computer to sleep. The only thing a computer does in sleep mode is wait for your input or for wake timers.
KCRic said:
That's a possibility. So maybe the phone is demanding a higher flow of the current per unit of time since the current itself doesn't have enough 'pressure'. Either way, the results are showing something interesting going on that negates the usefulness of lower voltages.
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Click to collapse
I have privately asked this question several times. Does the phone have to work harder in certain instances when voltage is lower therefore bumping up to the next frequency? I gave never undervolt. I tried it undervolting by -25 on my OG Epic and my phone didn't like it and I haven't tried it since. Just thinking out loud...edit...big thanks to odub for my custom script!!
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using xda premium
Based upon this, very useful, article, I'm interested in knowing how to charge to a lower peak voltage. Apparently you can double the lifespan of your battery by lowering the maximum peak voltage by 0.1V, which is a thing I'm interested in! (as opposed to most people, who want more capacity, I'm prepared to sacrifice some capacity for longer lifespan!)
It feels like there should be 3 ways of solving the problem:
Pull the cord out at 80%?
Create some sort of hardware between the phone and charger that does something?
Tell the software to stop charging at a lower voltage?
#1 is clunky and not going to happen. #2 is hard because I'm not a hardware guy, but if anyone has any knowledge in this area I'd be interested in hearing! #3 is best for me, because at least I understand the internals of the phone, but I can't figure out what part of the phone might be in charge (heh...) of this.
So I guess my questions are:
What chip/etc is in charge of handling charging?
Is it possible to hack at this part?
Has anyone done it before?
Thanks!
Speaking for myself I've always been kinda aware of the failure potential of these batteries. For instance, I tend to not leave the phone unattended during charging and also use such tasker profiles as to shutdown when charge below 5% or alert when charging above 95%. These latter measures and others are mostly to help with battery longevity as well as or rather my ocdness on this subject.
My only gripe is that I never succeeded in instilling the same 'respect' for battery in my wife.. Pre or even post-note she always forgets her tablet or her phone plugged in the charger, even when no one's at home, sometimes for days!
But this recent note7 'mishap' let me tell you, made me even more wary of the destructive potential of the batteries in our phones. Especially since most of my latest snapdragon devices (m7, z5) get very warm while performing various mundane tasks (syncing via wifi/lte, camera, games rendering etc), much warmer then the defunct note.
Did this event affect the way you use your mobile devices and how? Is there any particular strategy you use with this respect? Or do you rather think that the failure rate being so low it's rather silly to worry about it?
millicent said:
Did this event affect the way you use your mobile devices and how?
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Nope, it hasn't made me change anything so far. I don't believe the issue with the Note 7 is directly a result of the battery since Samsung had two manufacturers make batteries and in both instances Note 7 devices with either battery still failed.
Is there any particular strategy you use with this respect?
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As long as the device is working properly meaning there's no defect that I am aware of (as in no global recall in effect, etc) in any part of the power or charging systems then I tend to leave my devices plugged in until they charge to 100% status then I'll usually leave them connected to the charger for up to 30 minutes past that point then disconnect. With the GS7A I have, I only charge it once every 2.5-3 days typically and that's from 5-10% back to 100% using a Samsung 2A charger - I don't use the factory fast charger and I don't use fast charging because I believe that ends up shortening the potential lifespan of the battery cell itself.
I did not say that's a fact for everyone to live by or accept as the gospel truth, I said for myself personally I believe that fast charging shortens the lifespan of the battery cell itself.
For the record I've owned several hundred devices over the decades, some with Ni-Cad batteries, most with Li-Ion over the past decade, and a few with Li-Po technolology and I only had one instance of a battery having a problem (not a failure). It was a knockoff cheap Chinese clone battery for my Galaxy S4 Active several years ago and it bloated up one afternoon - thankfully that GS4A had a removable back cover and I caught the swelling up very fast because as soon as it started to bloat up the back cover literally popped off about 4 inches above my desk and landed on my keyboard. I of course took the battery out immediately and put it in a small ceramic box my Wife had laying around, nothing else happened and I ended up taking it to a local battery store here in Las Vegas and turning it in for safe destruction.
See, there really is a good reason to have removable batteries and removable back covers on some devices.
Or do you rather think that the failure rate being so low it's rather silly to worry about it?
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As stated above, I don't believe the actual point of failure with the Note 7 is the battery directly - the burning up and explosions of the battery cells is the effect, not the cause. Something is happening to cause the battery (now two different ones, which most of us know about now) to fail.
Now it remains to be seen if the cause can be determined for the failures.
There is one other, perhaps more placebo induced effect, routine I'd do every once in a while, related to battery calibration. So I'd let the battery go as low as can possibly go, or let it turn off by itself, charge at cold until 100% then power on while still plugged in and finally unplug when os fully booted up.
Is this still a proper thing to do or it rather stresses the battery uselessly?
After I got this GS7A I did allow it to run down entirely till it shut off once, just one time and I actually got concerned because when I then plugged in the charger all I got on the display was a battery outline (the white battery icon that's hollowed out) and I was expecting the lightning-bolt symbol to appear there to indicate yes it's charging, after which it should change into the progress meter along the inside bottom of the icon.
That didn't happen.
So I sat there waiting. 5 minutes went by, then about 10 minutes, and I started to worry that perhaps I'd just killed it completely. But about 11 minutes after I plugged in the charger the lightning bolt appeared for about 10 seconds, flashing a few times, then I saw a thin green line across the bottom. Success!
But it did pretty much scare me for a few minutes at the thought of potentially ruining it by doing that so, I don't intend to ever let that happen. Your practice you mentioned of using Tasker to shut down at 5% (not a complete discharge like I did that one time) and to stop charging at 95% is a good idea and something I'm going to have to do more research into.
I've spent a lot of time over the years reading research papers at Battery University and I know that full discharge of a Li-Ion cell is a bad idea but I still ended up doing it. I was actually trying to capture a screenshot at 1% then I planned to initiate a shutdown immediately after that but taking the screenshot just killed it, oops.
But the idea of shutdown at maybe 4% and stopping the charging at 95% (or at least providing me with some kind of alert I can hear clearly and charge or disconnect as required) is a very good idea so thanks for mentioning that.
My research and understanding of the available info at Battery University is that it's better to do your best to not let a Li-Ion cell go below at least 30-40% charged most of the time with short periods of charging to bring it back up to the 90-95% point and, and occasionally - like maybe once a month - allow it to go deeper into the discharge state but not fully (I learned my lesson on that one) and then charge it back to full. The question is what that "full" point might be because some papers say charging Li-Ion to full capacity ruins them as time passes and other papers say it's just fine to do so occasionally - the problem is there's no absolute consensus on either method.
The deep discharge method once a month might work better as a method of calibrating (?!?!) but I honestly don't know for sure, not sure anyone does. But I think I'm going to start using Tasker for that 4-5% shutdown and 95% top off point on my Active, it sure can't actually hurt the device and could give me longer battery lifespan or should I say longevity as you did - that word actually seems more appropriate because most folks hear "battery lifespan" and they only understand that to mean how long it runs on a single charge which isn't the meaning I'm trying to get across.
all i can say after this incident , my knowledge of ion battery deepen and yes in case of emergency , you cant remove if its seal tight shut inside , something to consider , Samsung .
for me, no it's not made me more wary, I always am re Li cells as there have been many failures not only in phones. I have laptops, eCigs, torches etc that all use Li cells. That said, I use the devices as "normal" but stay aware of how warm they've gotten in charge/use, try to not drop them or leave them on/in a source of external heating etc. Anything containing combustible material can go bang after all. A disposable lighter left on an iron fireplace with the fire burning goes bang very well indeed, as would one of these cells in the same circumstances
I tend to top off the charge regularly since I have Qi chargers on my desk and in the car holder but never charge overnight while I sleep. I'd guess my operating capacity ranges from 100% down to maybe 30% and mainly hanging in the 60-80% range as the device tops up. SatNav tends to mean in-car the device only gathers a minor gain even over a couple hours use as the draw from the screen/cpu offsets the input from the Qi charger plate. The phone of course gets warm in this mode, hence it is set halfway down on the centre dash rather than up high and in the sun. And no I'm not always looking at it - voice guidance is very handy
On charge levels, I've also read a number of articles on various cell types. Typically the recommendations are that Li cells effectively eat themselves if kept at 100%, degrading and losing capacity over time. Hence its best if storing them to have them at 50-70% and not fully charged. Of course whether the phone actually takes the cell to its 100% limit or its charge management calls 100% at the 95% of cell capacity I don't know. When fully discharge has happened then yes it does seem to take longer for the charge icon to start ticking along, seen the same on the old iPad-1 I have, probably because the initial part has to be a very slow energising charge to get the cell to a point when it can accept more current and maybe the icon only shows rates above a certain current.
re the swelling cell. I've not used non-Samsung cells in my note 1/3 or S2 but have seen Sammy's cells also swell when they get to end of life. Both notes had this happen around the 18-26 month mark but not to the extent of the back popping off/open. Dramatic shortening of on-battery runtime yes, but from the outside no real visible indications that anything was up.
NO, LiPo, and Li ion batts are everywhere why worry about, I have had dozens of LiPo an LiOn powered devices
What about Li-On batteries though?
Hasn't changed for me either. But it has made me more wary of Samsung devices. There no way I'm getting the s8 (or note 8) no matter how great the features are. They can't even figure out what's wrong with the note 7.. Who's to say their upcoming phones won't have the same problem.
The only thing that worries me is that it may become even harder to get batteries and such shipped to Hawaii, it's horrible.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N930A using Tapatalk
Hello everybody.
I just want to share with you guys what I found out.
I've been using custom ROMs and custom kernels for LG V30, and I faced a lot of issues. The most common issue is overheating, especially on charging or using mobile data.
I use Anker's adapter that supports Quick Charge 3.0, and an Anker USB-C to USB-3.0 cable. I use Ampere app to see how the battery is charge.
On custom ROMs, the ampere number (mA) changes every few seconds, jumps up and down with big gap, and the phone gets very hot.
On stock ROM (US99820H) in my case, mA number is very stable. It increases or decreases slowly and doesn't jump up and down. On plugging in, min and max mA are equal. The phone is just a little bit hotter than before plugging in.
So I just wanted to share my own experience with you guys. If you want you phone to last long, use Stock ROMs, disable bloatwares and useless system apps.
I'm going to purchase the battery and change it myself for better battery life. I wanted to change to another phone but for now, this is the best phone for music.
Please discuss if you disagree with me or have a solution for custom ROMs.
minhntp said:
Hello everybody.
I just want to share with you guys what I found out.
I've been using custom ROMs and custom kernels for LG V30, and I faced a lot of issues. The most common issue is overheating, especially on charging or using mobile data.
I use Anker's adapter that supports Quick Charge 3.0, and an Anker USB-C to USB-3.0 cable. I use Ampere app to see how the battery is charge.
On custom ROMs, the ampere number (mA) changes every few seconds, jumps up and down with big gap, and the phone gets very hot.
On stock ROM (US99820H) in my case, mA number is very stable. It increases or decreases slowly and doesn't jump up and down. On plugging in, min and max mA are equal. The phone is just a little bit hotter than before plugging in.
So I just wanted to share my own experience with you guys. If you want you phone to last long, use Stock ROMs, disable bloatwares and useless system apps.
I'm going to purchase the battery and change it myself for better battery life. I wanted to change to another phone but for now, this is the best phone for music.
Please discuss if you disagree with me or have a solution for custom ROMs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I also felt the same...Though the charging speed on custom roms is higher...in terms of stability of current, Stock Rom is the best.
minhntp said:
Hello everybody.
I just want to share with you guys what I found out.
I've been using custom ROMs and custom kernels for LG V30, and I faced a lot of issues. The most common issue is overheating, especially on charging or using mobile data.
I use Anker's adapter that supports Quick Charge 3.0, and an Anker USB-C to USB-3.0 cable. I use Ampere app to see how the battery is charge.
On custom ROMs, the ampere number (mA) changes every few seconds, jumps up and down with big gap, and the phone gets very hot.
On stock ROM (US99820H) in my case, mA number is very stable. It increases or decreases slowly and doesn't jump up and down. On plugging in, min and max mA are equal. The phone is just a little bit hotter than before plugging in.
So I just wanted to share my own experience with you guys. If you want you phone to last long, use Stock ROMs, disable bloatwares and useless system apps.
I'm going to purchase the battery and change it myself for better battery life. I wanted to change to another phone but for now, this is the best phone for music.
Please discuss if you disagree with me or have a solution for custom ROMs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In terms of stability, I have different results, when I charge using a custom rom the phone tends to stay cool, but when I used the stock rom the phone got a lot hotter then before charging.
Custom ROMs may not be utilizing QC properly. QC 2.0 has few discrete voltage/current steps, while QC 3.0 has many (200mA increments iirc) designed to strike a balance between charging speed and heat. Maybe it's getting stuck in QC 2.0 mode and the temperature feedback isn't working properly?
You could just use a non-fast-charging wireless charger, if you're only charging up at night. 5v/~1A is pretty much harmless, it's just on the slow side of things.
fyi, battery capacity (as tracked by the charging controller driver, I guess) is stored at sys/class/power_supply/bms/charge_full; it defaults to design capacity until a full charge cycle has been completed* and then I suppose is revised each time the driver tracks less energy has been stored after a complete charge. Cycle count, cell resistance and a couple other things are also stored here. I think all values are persistent until the battery is physically disconnected.
Might be worth doing a full discharge+charge (to 100%, then let it sit for a few hours to saturate) to see if your battery is worn enough to warrant pulling the phone apart. Accubattery does seem to be more or less accurate, so you charge while it's on you can get a real-time idea of how much has gone in.
* a full charge might be from 1% to 100%. It might be from 5% to 100%. Who knows! I've charged from 2% to 100% a couple times and not had cycle_count increase.
Also, if you do go shopping, beware of undersized batteries. I bought an "OE spec" battery a while ago that was obviously thinner and lighter than the original; it weighed some 12.5% less and only took a 3000mah charge, more or less lining up with the reduced weight. The seller was "tele*cell", and I very much doubt they're the only ones pulling this crap. Record the contents of power_supply/bms if they're important to you, too, as they zero out upon battery disconnect.
edit: hmm, thinking about it...bms = Battery Management System? (not this one specifically, of course)
Septfox said:
Also, if you do go shopping, beware of undersized batteries. I bought an "OE spec" battery a while ago that was obviously thinner and lighter than the original; it weighed some 12.5% less and only took a 3000mah charge, more or less lining up with the reduced weight. The seller was "tele*cell", and I very much doubt they're the only ones pulling this crap. Record the contents of power_supply/bms if they're important to you, too, as they zero out upon battery disconnect.
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Click to collapse
It is possible that you bought a smaller battery - but you should know that the capacity of Li** batteries increases within the first couple of cycles. Also usually the nominal capacity might be different from the real (typical) capacity. So you would need to meassure a.new original battery against your replacement battery (not take the value LG tells us for.granted)
daniu said:
It is possible that you bought a smaller battery - but you should know that the capacity of Li** batteries increases within the first couple of cycles. Also usually the nominal capacity might be different from the real (typical) capacity. So you would need to meassure a.new original battery against your replacement battery (not take the value LG tells us for.granted)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Li-po capacity hasn't really gone anywhere in a while, and I wouldn't expect cheap eBay batteries to be using the newest and best chemistry. It was definitely undersize/weight; I attached some pictures.
Because I wanted to be absolutely sure before I called the seller on it, I purposefully ran it four full cycles, then built up another two during normal use. The best capacity that the BMS ever rated it for was 2980mah, while Accubattery put in something like...3060mah once with subsequent charges in the 2900-3000 range.
While I get what you're saying, I find it unlikely that the BMS would set to the expected design capacity if they were using undersize batteries from the factory.
The reason being that at a guess, the battery "fuel gauge" is probably based on capacity_full, which = capacity_full_design until set. With a new phone that isn't charged to 100% (thus setting capacity_full), if using the phone down to 1% you'd risk either a) the phone suddenly shutting down at ~10% or b) overdischarge damage if the battery is actually less than the phone's design capacity.
Kind of a corner case though, I'll admit, since this would only be on the first run.
Last, I submit my own OEM battery for consideration: prior to taking it out, it had accumulated 537 cycles and had a recorded capacity of 2485mah. That's about what I'd expect from a 3300mah battery that was almost certainly used "normally" e.g. discharged daily, charged nightly and left on the tap at full charge for hours on end.
Like you said, though, the only way to know for sure would be testing a new OEM battery, and we've been fresh out of those for a year and a half now. Maybe someone could nab one from one of their newer models and test for science? I already have too many spare lipo cells laying around.
Septfox said:
Custom ROMs may not be utilizing QC properly. QC 2.0 has few discrete voltage/current steps, while QC 3.0 has many (200mA increments iirc) designed to strike a balance between charging speed and heat. Maybe it's getting stuck in QC 2.0 mode and the temperature feedback isn't working properly?
You could just use a non-fast-charging wireless charger, if you're only charging up at night. 5v/~1A is pretty much harmless, it's just on the slow side of things.
fyi, battery capacity (as tracked by the charging controller driver, I guess) is stored at sys/class/power_supply/bms/charge_full; it defaults to design capacity until a full charge cycle has been completed* and then I suppose is revised each time the driver tracks less energy has been stored after a complete charge. Cycle count, cell resistance and a couple other things are also stored here. I think all values are persistent until the battery is physically disconnected.
Might be worth doing a full discharge+charge (to 100%, then let it sit for a few hours to saturate) to see if your battery is worn enough to warrant pulling the phone apart. Accubattery does seem to be more or less accurate, so you charge while it's on you can get a real-time idea of how much has gone in.
* a full charge might be from 1% to 100%. It might be from 5% to 100%. Who knows! I've charged from 2% to 100% a couple times and not had cycle_count increase.
Also, if you do go shopping, beware of undersized batteries. I bought an "OE spec" battery a while ago that was obviously thinner and lighter than the original; it weighed some 12.5% less and only took a 3000mah charge, more or less lining up with the reduced weight. The seller was "tele*cell", and I very much doubt they're the only ones pulling this crap. Record the contents of power_supply/bms if they're important to you, too, as they zero out upon battery disconnect.
edit: hmm, thinking about it...bms = Battery Management System? (not this one specifically, of course)
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Do you have sleep problem after changing the battery? After changing the battery, my phone doesn't go to sleep when the screen is off, so the battery just keeps draining. I'm using stock ROM. I don't know if this is a software of hardware issue.
minhntp said:
Do you have sleep problem after changing the battery? After changing the battery, my phone doesn't go to sleep when the screen is off, so the battery just keeps draining. I'm using stock ROM. I don't know if this is a software of hardware issue.
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The only thing notable that happened was the battery stats getting wiped. Otherwise the phone behaved normally.
Try getting BetterBatteryStats, second post has the newest apk attached (2.3 iirc).
Start it up to get it established, Set Custom Ref. from the menu, shut the screen off for...ehh...20min.
Turn it back on, select Custom in the left drop-down menu and Current in the right drop-down menu.
Check Kernel Wakelocks and Partial Wakelocks using the top drop-down menu to see if anything sticks out.
Septfox said:
Li-po capacity hasn't really gone anywhere in a while, and I wouldn't expect cheap eBay batteries to be using the newest and best chemistry. It was definitely undersize/weight; I attached some pictures.
Because I wanted to be absolutely sure before I called the seller on it, I purposefully ran it four full cycles, then built up another two during normal use. The best capacity that the BMS ever rated it for was 2980mah, while Accubattery put in something like...3060mah once with subsequent charges in the 2900-3000 range.
While I get what you're saying, I find it unlikely that the BMS would set to the expected design capacity if they were using undersize batteries from the factory.
The reason being that at a guess, the battery "fuel gauge" is probably based on capacity_full, which = capacity_full_design until set. With a new phone that isn't charged to 100% (thus setting capacity_full), if using the phone down to 1% you'd risk either a) the phone suddenly shutting down at ~10% or b) overdischarge damage if the battery is actually less than the phone's design capacity.
Kind of a corner case though, I'll admit, since this would only be on the first run.
Last, I submit my own OEM battery for consideration: prior to taking it out, it had accumulated 537 cycles and had a recorded capacity of 2485mah. That's about what I'd expect from a 3300mah battery that was almost certainly used "normally" e.g. discharged daily, charged nightly and left on the tap at full charge for hours on end.
Like you said, though, the only way to know for sure would be testing a new OEM battery, and we've been fresh out of those for a year and a half now. Maybe someone could nab one from one of their newer models and test for science? I already have too many spare lipo cells laying around.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What is the full capacity when you put those 2 battery in?
I just bought a battery. This new one has 6 symbols each line (like the one you bought) and 2 lines of manufactured date. The old (original) one has 5 symbols each line and also 2 lines of manufatured date.
When I check "charge_full" after full charging, it shows 3312000 for the original battery and 3230000 for the new one, while the "charge_full_design" being 3312000 for both battery.
minhntp said:
What is the full capacity when you put those 2 battery in?
I just bought a battery. This new one has 6 symbols each line (like the one you bought) and 2 lines of manufactured date. The old (original) one has 5 symbols each line and also 2 lines of manufatured date.
When I check "charge_full" after full charging, it shows 3312000 for the original battery and 3230000 for the new one, while the "charge_full_design" being 3312000 for both battery.
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Click to collapse
All three batteries I've had showed the same 3312000 charge_full_design. But I'm not sure if this is relevant to us, aside from as a reference to compare to.
Out of curiosity and so I don't purposely give outright bad information, I went and looked at the kernel (up on github courtesy of lunar-kernels).
3300mah design capacity is set when the kernel is built (BLT34 battery profile, which is grabbed by the power manager).
I'm not sure where the number "3312000" specifically is coming from. I can't read the source for the BMS well enough to tell why it's coming up with that number, aside from it's a calculated result based on more than just the design capacity.
Based on the above and other behavior, I don't think any permanent information is stored with or retrieved from the battery itself; design parameters are set in the BLT34 profile and then the BMS amends certain things as it takes measurements. It assumes that whatever attached battery is actually 3300/3312mah until proven otherwise (calibrated with sufficient cycling).
Said measurements are stored ~somewhere~ outside of the ROM, recovery and download mode - mine persisted through the LAFsploit process and TWRP on both partitions - and cleared when power is lost. Maybe they're stored in RAM somewhere? Maybe the BMS notices the discontinuity in power and assumes a battery change, resetting everything? I'll try making sense of the kernel source to see...
The labeling difference is curious, and something I hadn't really given thought to. The newer ones have NOM and NYCE marks, which are Mexican safety approval things. It's interesting that the originals don't have them; maybe because LG doesn't make phones for the Mexican market and thus saw no need? I doubt these third-party manufacturers have gone out of their way to actually obtain said approval...probably just stuck them there to satisfy customs.
I bought a battery from another seller and installed it this weekend; it uses the 12-symbol style as well, has date+date code like the original (dated a rather shiny 2019.09.08!), and weighs the expected 48g/has an OE-style "stepped" back making it thicker.
Seems to charge fully and otherwise work as expected. charge_full still = charge_full_design, I'm not sure if this is because the BMS has determined that it's an OEM-capacity battery, or it hasn't cycled sufficiently to update. Gonna keep an eye on it. Pictures attached.
Edit: battery listing on ebay. Note if anyone else buys it: the suction cup that came with mine was 100% useless. Plan accordingly.
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A further note on the smaller battery I bought: it did perform admirably. It had no issues when using the phone as a power supply (~2.5A sustained output), right down to where I stopped it at 5%, which is rather abusive for cells in this form-factor. It was just...well...smaller. It certainly wasn't a bad battery at all, it was just misrepresented. Lighter/slightly-smaller batteries would make great travel batteries, if the V30 were swap-friendly...
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@Septfox
I hope you bought a good one.
The battery I bought lasts long, but also takes long to charge (about 2 hours). The phone shows fast-charging but when I check battery log in Hidden menu, it shows only Quick charge 2.0.
I found a way to reset the battery information, hopefully sellers don't use this to reset the cycle count.
There's a thread on xda that shows a method to reset battery information on HTC phones. That is holding down 2 volume buttons + power button (volume down + power for LG V30) in 2 minutes while the phone is being charged, let the phone restart as many times it takes in 2 minutes. And then charge the phone to full.
I did that and when I check in Hidden menu, the battery information was resetted to 3312000 full capacity and 0 cycle count.
minhntp said:
@Septfox
The battery I bought lasts long, but also takes long to charge (about 2 hours). The phone shows fast-charging but when I check battery log in Hidden menu, it shows only Quick charge 2.0.
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Click to collapse
QC 3.0 wouldn't outright increase the speed any; it exists to help reduce heat and provide more consistent charging.
If it makes you feel any better, mine is also getting stuck on QC 2.0. Judging by the way the Parallel Charging status flickers on and off as I move the cable and put pressure on the connector, I could probably stand to get a new charging port...
This is why wireless charging is a good idea. But now that I think about it, replacement boards are cheap on ebay ($5), so replacing it each time the battery is changed might be a good bit of cheap maintenance to do :good:
Have you tried a different cable and/or charger to see if your charging improves? Maybe you need a new port, too.
minhntp said:
I found a way to reset the battery information, hopefully sellers don't use this to reset the cycle count.
There's a thread on xda that shows a method to reset battery information on HTC phones. That is holding down 2 volume buttons + power button (volume down + power for LG V30) in 2 minutes while the phone is being charged, let the phone restart as many times it takes in 2 minutes. And then charge the phone to full.
I did that and when I check in Hidden menu, the battery information was resetted to 3312000 full capacity and 0 cycle count.
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I find this slightly alarming, actually...
The normal button combination to hard-reset the phone is power+vol down. This might just be what's happening, and by making the phone do it repeatedly, the firmware might be interpreting it as a bootloop condition caused by something in memory and completely disconnecting power in an attempt to mitigate it (clearing the battery stats in the process). Probably harmless though.
Dunno that a seller would bother trying it, though. What do they get out of it, other than a seemingly-new battery with less capacity than it should have? It would just recalibrate when charged and show the real capacity in the hidden menu, and the game would be up :v
Septfox said:
QC 3.0 wouldn't outright increase the speed any; it exists to help reduce heat and provide more consistent charging.
If it makes you feel any better, mine is also getting stuck on QC 2.0
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All V30 always show QuickCharge 2.0 in Nougat as well as Oreo. Not sure about Pie.
Speculation was it was a script error, that it was really 3.0 -- but falsely shows 2.0.
Can't remember if it was ever proven one way or the other.
I do remember people say it now charges slower on Pie. Again speculative because LG knows batteries are older?
I'm still on rooted Oreo, so I don't care.
ChazzMatt said:
I do remember people say it now charges slower on Pie. Again speculative because LG knows batteries are older?
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I don't notice my phone charging any different. Even when using wired.
Sent from my LG-H932 using XDA Labs
ChazzMatt said:
All V30 always show QuickCharge 2.0 in Nougat as well as Oreo. Not sure about Pie.
Speculation was it was a script error, that it was really 3.0 -- but falsely shows 2.0.
Can't remember if it was ever proven one way or the other.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I read "the display may not be correct, so you should totally use this as an excuse to get a newer charger-doctor that supports QC".
...and you're completely right, I'm gonna go do that :v
ChazzMatt said:
I do remember people say it now charges slower on Pie. Again speculative because LG knows batteries are older?
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Or to mitigate further aging by reducing internal heat. I also remember seeing somewhere that it was limited to 12w or 13w, now that you mention it, though that might have been for 15w wireless which has a reputation for slow-cooking the battery (in any phone, not just the V30).