Develop Bugs

Why HTC S-Oning when they allow us to unlock bootloader ?

The question is pretty much straight
Why does HTC S-On the devices when they allow us to unlock bootloader?
HTC says that the main idea of unlocking bootloader is that you can unleash our own phone.
Why can't they just S-OFF the devices when unlocking the bootloader ?
Can anyone fill me in
Thanks

MJ999 said:
The question is pretty much straight
Why does HTC S-On the devices when they allow us to unlock bootloader?
HTC says that the main idea of unlocking bootloader is that you can unleash our own phone.
Why can't they just S-OFF the devices when unlocking the bootloader ?
Can anyone fill me in
Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
S-off opens up access to pretty much everything and so allows more control. With that are the risks of totally bricking your device. Staying S-on still gives you some protection from mucking things up and the freedom to flash roms/recoveries/kernels.
I agree though, as people are responsible for their actions and so must know the consequences of modding their devices, they should just give another level of access to remove s-off. The warranty is void once you unlock the bootloader anyway.
More info around s-off/NAND/partitions etc:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2619392

gsmyth said:
S-off opens up access to pretty much everything and so allows more control. With that are the risks of totally bricking your device. Staying S-on still gives you some protection from mucking things up and the freedom to flash roms/recoveries/kernels.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Now I simply voided my phone's warranty without any use.
Damn it HTC.

MJ999 said:
Now I simply voided my phone's warranty without any use.
Damn it HTC.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How did you unlock it? Do you have s-off?

MJ999 said:
Now I simply voided my phone's warranty without any use.
Damn it HTC.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Use sunshine to get s-off.

MJ999 said:
The question is pretty much straight
Why does HTC S-On the devices when they allow us to unlock bootloader?
HTC says that the main idea of unlocking bootloader is that you can unleash our own phone.
Why can't they just S-OFF the devices when unlocking the bootloader ?
Can anyone fill me in
Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can still unleash some of your phone by just unlocking, which is probably why they gave the option. You can still flash a custom recovery, you can still root, you can still flash custom ROMs.
S-OFF you can flash different firmwares, you can resize partitions, you can convert to other models. Why would the majority want these? And by the looks of some of these threads, why would even some of the majority of "flashers" need it? Root + Custom Recovery + Custom ROM should be enough to satisfy most.
S-ON then just protects the phone from more serious changes that might lead to more serious damage if *you* don't know what *you're* doing.

BerndM14 said:
You can still unleash some of your phone by just unlocking, which is probably why they gave the option. You can still flash a custom recovery, you can still root, you can still flash custom ROMs.
S-OFF you can flash different firmwares, you can resize partitions, you can convert to other models. Why would the majority want these? And by the looks of some of these threads, why would even some of the majority of "flashers" need it? Root + Custom Recovery + Custom ROM should be enough to satisfy most.
S-ON then just protects the phone from more serious changes that might lead to more serious damage if *you* don't know what *you're* doing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This
When you are S-on/BL locked, your carrier (or HTC/Google) is your system administrator. The carriers take this a bit further, and even manage some of your apps. In a lot of ways, you are a guest on the system, even though you "own" it. However, assuming you just want to use it to make phone calls and post to facebook, for most people this is fine. (my wife's phone isn't even rooted)
When you are BL unlocked, you take over some parts of that sysadmin job, and can now replace parts of the operating system and manage your own apps. You can also disable external control of your device by rooting and turning off certain services. However, the truly critical stuff, the stuff that could keep your phone from booting, are outside of your control. You are now no longer a guest, but you aren't exactly an owner either.
When you S-off, you are taking on the job of being the system administrator entirely. You are 100% responsible for what happens to your phone. Your '44, your Magnum rounds, your foot. Be careful.

gsmyth said:
How did you unlock it? Do you have s-off?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I unlocked my bootloader.
No, I don't have S-OFF
KJ said:
Use sunshine to get s-off.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
BerndM14 said:
You can still unleash some of your phone by just unlocking, which is probably why they gave the option. You can still flash a custom recovery, you can still root, you can still flash custom ROMs.
S-OFF you can flash different firmwares, you can resize partitions, you can convert to other models. Why would the majority want these? And by the looks of some of these threads, why would even some of the majority of "flashers" need it? Root + Custom Recovery + Custom ROM should be enough to satisfy most.
S-ON then just protects the phone from more serious changes that might lead to more serious damage if *you* don't know what *you're* doing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I know about it, but I just want the H/K Mod, I don't think I need to spend 25 bucks for just the mod.
If anything better comes up, I will try sunshine
and during the meantime some devs might also find another way to S-Off hopefully.
But @BerndM14 don't you think HTC should have asked to you choose S-On or S-OFF when unlocking the bootloader or so ?

MJ999 said:
I unlocked my bootloader.
No, I don't have S-OFF
I know about it, but I just want the H/K Mod, I don't think I need to spend 25 bucks for just the mod.
If anything better comes up, I will try sunshine
and during the meantime some devs might also find another way to S-Off hopefully.
But @BerndM14 don't you think HTC should have asked to you choose S-On or S-OFF when unlocking the bootloader or so ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You wont' hear any arguments from me about that, I've made a post about that ages ago in which I stated that manufacturers should give you the option to have your phone rooted, unlocked and in HTC's case S-OFF, if it's a warranty issue then why not just a bit more for warranty purposes, but we still need the choice. Will they ever do something like that? I doubt they'll do anything like that any time soon but it would be nice and I've said so a long time ago already.
Especially as far as development on the devices are concerned. I don't see why they would share the Kernel source to allow developers to develop for the phone while at the same time expecting the developer to just hack away at the device in order to get the necessary permissions to develop for the device!

BerndM14 said:
You wont' hear any arguments from me about that, I've made a post about that ages ago in which I stated that manufacturers should give you the option to have your phone rooted, unlocked and in HTC's case S-OFF, if it's a warranty issue then why not just a bit more for warranty purposes, but we still need the choice. Will they ever do something like that? I doubt they'll do anything like that any time soon but it would be nice and I've said so a long time ago already.
Especially as far as development on the devices are concerned. I don't see why they would share the Kernel source to allow developers to develop for the phone while at the same time expecting the developer to just hack away at the device in order to get the necessary permissions to develop for the device!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank the GPL for that last one. Android is essentially a very custom distro of Linux, and the Linux community has already shown that they will go after violators. It's how the Linksys WRT54G became the WIFI router to own. IOW, they release it because they have to, but they don't have to make it easy, or usable.
We have seen with the Samsung and LG devices that it is possible to lock down a device fully such that it won't boot anything that isn't cryptographically signed. They will do as little as necessary to comply with the license, without giving us the ability to actually use that knowledge. After all, what good is kernel source if you don't have a signing key the CPU will accept?
That is the primary reason I chose the M8. It was one of the few flagship phones that is still able to be fully owned.

Do google know that we've unlocked the bootloader?

Do google know that we've unlocked the bootloader? (as Sony do as they ask for email adresses etc and confirm the ulock)
Wondering about warranty.

there is a notice about unlocking of bootloader may violate warranty . thing is it is stated in a somewhat vague manner, it is not like CAUTION YOU ARE ABOUT TO VIOLATE WARRANTY but rather worded like you may be in violation of warranty. anyway, i think it does violate and yes there is most likely a software switch that sets a value in hardware register which can be recovered to determine that the bootloader was unlocked. if you have the least bit of concern do not unlock.

dkryder said:
there is a notice about unlocking of bootloader may violate warranty . thing is it is stated in a somewhat vague manner, it is not like CAUTION YOU ARE ABOUT TO VIOLATE WARRANTY but rather worded like you may be in violation of warranty. anyway, i think it does violate and yes there is most likely a software switch that sets a value in hardware register which can be recovered to determine that the bootloader was unlocked. if you have the least bit of concern do not unlock.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok thanks.
One last google noob question; does rooting usually need an unlocked bootloader?
On xperia root is more difficult to achieve with a locked bootloader, but can be done, thanks to the devs.
I guess I will read the 6P thread to get a feel for the situation.
Cheers again.

i do not know if it is possible, in practice as far as i know it is necessary to unlock if any modification is wanted. recently it is popular to gain root without mod of /system partition. hopefully that is what is achieved with the pixel c.
edit: never done this but, fastboot boot recovery recovery.img then flash a superuser from temp recovery. however it seems you would still be restricted from mod of /system
in future.

dkryder said:
i do not know if it is possible, in practice as far as i know it is necessary to unlock if any modification is wanted. recently it is popular to gain root without mod of /system partition. hopefully that is what is achieved with the pixel c.
edit: never done this but, fastboot boot recovery recovery.img then flash a superuser from temp recovery. however it seems you would still be restricted from mod of /system
in future.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you use fastboot boot then you do not need to specify a partition (only if using fasboot flash *partition* image.img).
The device is still very new but im sure a custom recovery will be released soon so an easy root can be achieved.
MArk.

mskip said:
If you use fastboot boot then you do not need to specify a partition (only if using fasboot flash *partition* image.img).
The device is still very new but im sure a custom recovery will be released soon so an easy root can be achieved.
MArk.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I sure hope so. That's one of the only things keeping me from buying it already. It's kind of worrisome that the development forums are almost completely dead (save for the one thread trying to get root without a custom recovery, of course). I guess I'm just spoiled by using only Nexus devices, so having very active development is usually the norm.

well, the thing was only a rumor about sales start up until a report in a german site on 12/5 or so that sales would start 12/8 and then on 12/8 a confirm that at 1pm eastern u.s.a. sales would begin. talk about giving people a decent notice about a device this pixel c was a new low for google. it's almost they decided to sell them as android tablet at last moment instead of tossing in trash as a complete failure as chrome os tablet so, yeah, it will take a while for anyone that has skill to develop this device to ante up the funds and take delivery. if bootloader remains locked and boot temp recovery to flash supersu does that restrict the root in any way? i am just curious about this as my bootloader is unlocked.

Phone status ‘Tampered’, does it matter?

Dear XDA wizards,
I’m not sure what point this happened (between unlocking bootloader, flashing custom recovery, flashing SuperSU and gaining S-OFF with Sunshine) but my phone’s status on the bootloader says ‘Tampered’. My question (and I'm aware it may be a stupid one) is ‘will it affect my ability to flash custom ROMs’? I ask because a load of the flashing videos I’ve seen on YouTube don’t have the ‘Tampered’ flag. I couldn't care less that it says ‘tampered’, I’m just wondering if it will mess things up (I’m a nervous flasher… no pun intended). I’m fairly certain the answer is ‘No, it won’t make the blindest bit of difference’.
George

Yeah ... the answer is ‘No, it won’t make the blindest bit of difference’.
You can remove that flag using this guide - http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2708565

ckpv5 said:
Yeah ... the answer is ‘No, it won’t make the blindest bit of difference’.
You can remove that flag using this guide - http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2708565
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks pal!

Yer no difference at all, curious why everyones M8 seems to say tampered when custom, Mine doesnt, it says modified in Bootloader, no tampered anywhere, also nothing is listed where it says OS, its blank, yet phone is running stock LP rooted, Twrp, UL BL and S-ON, should i be worried, it seems to work perfect.

Help - Bricked HTC m9 - Not rooted - Advice needed -

Hi,
My wife HTC m9(UK, Vodaphone, latest stock ROM, No root) was turned off last night to charge.
When booted up it does the below. It does not load into the OS. Every boot loops into the below.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8n21CQX7535cjF4MnZqV2E1dGM/view?usp=sharing
It says the software has been modified?
My wife was very insistent that I never root or change ROMS on her phone.
Does anyone have a fix or is this send off for replacement?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Ca1v

ca1v said:
Hi,
My wife HTC m9(UK, Vodaphone, latest stock ROM, No root) was turned off last night to charge.
When booted up it does the below. It does not load into the OS. Every boot loops into the below.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8n21CQX7535cjF4MnZqV2E1dGM/view?usp=sharing
It says the software has been modified?
My wife was very insistent that I never root or change ROMS on her phone.
Does anyone have a fix or is this send off for replacement?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Ca1v
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What happens if you try to boot to Download Mode? I guess you see the black screen that is mentioned in Q7, right? If that's the case there isn't much you can do...

Download mode seems to be working (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8n21CQX7535cEFhTlpnajF5anM/view?usp=sharing)
If this is the case, can you point me in the right direction to get resolved?
Many thanks for the help

Flippy498 said:
What happens if you try to boot to Download Mode? I guess you see the black screen that is mentioned in Q7, right? If that's the case there isn't much you can do...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Download mode seems to be working (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8n...ew?usp=sharing)
If this is the case, can you point me in the right direction to get resolved?
Many thanks for the help

Interesting. Your video in post 1 shows a security warning. That means that the OS got deleted. This is only possible if you unlock the bootloader and delete it manually via TWRP or if the EMMC gets broken. Since the phone's S-ON and its bootloader is locked and not unlocked or relocked I assumed that the latter happened*.
As long as the download mode is working you can restore the system with the help of a RUU. Instructions can be found in the thread I linked in my last post. Be aware that all data on the phone is going to get erased.
* Well, it is possible to get the phone's status back to S-ON and locked with S-OFF but you said you never tinkered with that phone...

Flippy498 said:
Interesting. Your video in post 1 shows a security warning. That means that the OS got deleted. This is only possible if you unlock the bootloader and delete it manually via TWRP or if the EMMC gets broken. Since the phone's S-ON and its bootloader is locked and not unlocked or relocked I assumed that the latter happened*.
As long as the download mode is working you can restore the system with the help of a RUU. Instructions can be found in the thread I linked in my last post. Be aware that all data on the phone is going to get erased.
* Well, it is possible to get the phone's status back to S-ON and locked with S-OFF but you said you never tinkered with that phone...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just thought I'd bring to your attention that apps are now being written that will try to obtain root without you knowing. The reason is that they can steal any information they want and sell it to corporations for as little as 4 pence/6c a record.
It is possible that it is a failed root by an app.
"I'm safe, I only download my apps from google playstore" - nope, you're not.
"I only use signed apps and the checksum is always correct" - nope, checksum can be matched with padding.
"I only use external sources to update genuine apps" - nope, see the Google playstore comment above.
"I have all my security and privacy set to super strict, I have my apps verified by google" - nope, still not secure because alerts are only written when the malicious/bad code is found.
Be warned, my fellow xda'ers. There is a whole new breed of security breach and it is terminal to root as a whole. Apps like kingoroot etc are issuing the wrong type of people with the wrong type of information and they are using it for the wrong purposes.
Google will stuggle to put a lid on these types of apps because they attack the hardware for access to software (a simple memory buffer overflow attack), inject a few lines of code and you're in, permanently. It will eventually result in a total lockdown at the manufacturer and bye bye root access, roms, mods etc, you'll get what you're given.
How do we prevent this?. We don't and we can't. We just have to sit back and watch as the world takes our privacy while bricking our devices one by one just to "try" to earn a poxy 4p.
Beamed in by telepathy.

@shivadow: I'm actually not sure what you're trying to achieve with your post. Malicious apps that can root your device without letting the user know about that exist since several years now. (Click here for a random example from 2011) Smartphones aren't completely safe and they never were. Everyone who's claiming the opposite either doesn't know what he/she is talking about or is simply lying.
To name just a few more android security flaws/exploits that emerged in the past: rageagainstthecage, gingerbreak, heartbleed, stagefright, the master key vulnerability, the futex bug, rootnik...
All of these have more or less been used for manipulating android phones. There is no absolute security. Android is still as secure/insecure as it's always been.
In addition, several OEMs are already trying to prevent their customers from rooting their phones since several years. Samsung's KNOX is a perfect example. (I don't want to discuss whether they're successful. That's a whole different topic.)
But let's get back to the deleted OS of the OP's phone: I've never heard about failed root attempts that erase a complete system partition. Therefore, I highly doubt that a malicious app caused all the trouble. Failed root attempts may cause a bootloop but they don't wipe your phone. Just think about the following: How should the dev of such app gain money if the app deletes OSes? Without OS there is no information you can steel and if you have no information you could sell/abuse/whatsoever you don't gain any money. Oh and not to forget that most apps on the play store already collect more than enough data from your phone they can sell afterwards without having to root it.

I meant failed root could be the cause, if the op didn't then who did?. If no-one modded it then dead nand is the only player..
I agree with every thing else but I don't trust those apps that try to gain root in the background to steal data and I think it's too easy for them to bugger your phone just for the sake of making a few coins. Face it, if I was doing it, once I had what I wanted I wouldn't care about the device. Sod the gracious exit and all that jazz.. No evidence, no conviction.
Maybe I'm being ott but my questions and points are still valid.
This is a proper "who dunnit" because I doubt it died of its own accord.
Knox is for businesses btw. If knox is triggered, which is very easy to do, the business is advised not to buy the device as it "may" have been compromised. But if no company secrets are being held on the device then it's still good to use. Knox protection was counteracted by supersu. In a nutshell, unless you run a company knox is of no concern to the everyday user.
Just thought I'd chuck that in there, I'm versed in the arts of the s3 i9300. I moved from that phone to this m9.
Beamed in by telepathy.

Recommendations to where i stand.

Hi guys,
Got an M9 that updated to Nougat as soon as i laid hands on it. I have very few experience with the HTC world, and would like some information where should i head after here.
I'll definitely need root and am familiar with flashing through fastboot and unlocking through the HTC DEV Token.
I am also aware that a few flashing methods dont work with an unlocked bootloader, so currently i dont want to rush right there.
What is absolutely a myth to me, is S-OFF. Never managed to reach it in any device, and the way of getting it seems a bit unfair (sorry if it doesn't agree with anyone's views).
So this is what i have.
Status: LOCKED and S-ON
ROM: 7.0
Software: 4.16.166.1
Build: CL839204
CID: VODAP110
Baseband: 01.01_U114401011_117.00.61117G_2_F
Has Download mode available.
Thanks in advance.

Sad, sad to have found out that on XDA, barely any helper comes around the Help threads.
And even sadder to the fact that a certain feature to give control over the device have been monopolised in OEM fashion, adding a certain fee too.
The loop of options:
YOU CAN ONLY:
Unlock the device officially, temper with custom roms and recoveries.
The moment you want the benefits of a newer release (baseband, etc), one needs to relock back, that means backing up, go through wiping and locking and back.
YOU CANT:
Certain features that depend on S-OFF. From changing phones origin to updating without bothering locking or not.
Long story short, you cant do anything useful without reaching the pocket.
This concludes as my last HTC phone ever.

PlutoDelic said:
Sad, sad to have found out that on XDA, barely any helper comes around the Help threads.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can only speak for myself but I'm not online 24/7. I answer if and when I have time for answering. Then you need to be aware that the M9 forum never was that active and the user base is even decreasing since the phone is already older than two years. If you expect fast replies, then a not so active device forum is definetely the wrong place for asking a question.
Aside from that, there's the ReadMe thread that got pinned at the top of the General and the Q&A section. It contains all answers to your questions. After all the time that I'm maintaining that thread I still don't understand why people prefer creating a new Q&A thread instead of reading what already got written.
PlutoDelic said:
And even sadder to the fact that a certain feature to give control over the device have been monopolised in OEM fashion, adding a certain fee too.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Please, not that discussion, again. S-OFF is absolutely not needed for using this phone. It's optional.
PlutoDelic said:
Unlock the device officially, temper with custom roms and recoveries.
The moment you want the benefits of a newer release (baseband, etc), one needs to relock back, that means backing up, go through wiping and locking and back.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Incorrect. If you had read the ReadMe thread you would know that relocking is absolutely not needed (and even not recommended). Not to forget that this phone is EOL. If you update to the latest version before starting to tinker you will never have to deal with this "problem" of getting back to stock. Aside from that, it was Google that introduced the block-based OTAs with android 5, not HTC. You'll face the same "problem" with every phone that gets shipped with android 5 or newer.
PlutoDelic said:
YOU CANT:
Certain features that depend on S-OFF. From changing phones origin to updating without bothering locking or not.
Long story short, you cant do anything useful without reaching the pocket.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not sure how you define useful but rooting and installing custom roms is working fine without S-OFF. Most M9 owners have never heard of xda, rooting or custom roms and the majority of the rest doesn't need more than what they already can achieve with S-ON. (The part with the locking already got corrected above.)

Flippy498 said:
I can only speak for myself but I'm not online 24/7. I answer if and when I have time for answering.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Obviously, i have the same experience on a few Samsung threads, very understandable, although rare does someone have such enthusiastic reply for something positive. But anyway, i'll throw a thanks as i am not here for cynicism or arrogance.
Flippy498 said:
Then you need to be aware that the M9 forum never was that active and the user base is even decreasing since the phone is already older than two years.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Very well noticed.
Regarding S-OFF, i "just" need it, and was very much disappointed with the solution.