Develop Bugs

[Q] Will M9 software update improve bad camera performance

Coming from M7 I know it's camera limitations and one thing I was expecting that shifting away from Ultra Pixel sensor would mean a much better performance. Unfortunately looking at the images from Barcelona I was scratching my head if what I saw was M9 images. The lower light photos in my opinion look quite bad. Lots of artifact, nasty noise, blotches of unprocessed information. So to say about normal daylight images though not as bad but still below average. So what's your take on this matter? Will the software update sort it out , is it worth waiting for couple of months? I don't think I am going to upgrade to M9 which I sincerely want to. Camera is deal breaker for me.

I honestly wouldn't base an opinion of this device with its current software situation, its gonna get hot, this is a pre release model. Also I bet its been on charge all day with the screen on, tester after tester messing with it. Not to mention the kernel and rom probably aren't optimized to deal with heavy load, I can see HTC making this a great device with further updates, I look forward to having it.

nebulaoperator said:
Coming from M7 I know it's camera limitations and one thing I was expecting that shifting away from Ultra Pixel sensor would mean a much better performance. Unfortunately looking at the images from Barcelona I was scratching my head if what I saw was M9 images. The lower light photos in my opinion look quite bad. Lots of artifact, nasty noise, blotches of unprocessed information. So to say about normal daylight images though not as bad but still below average. So what's your take on this matter? Will the software update sort it out , is it worth waiting for couple of months? I don't think I am going to upgrade to M9 which I sincerely want to. Camera is deal breaker for me.
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You're not the only one making a question out of the camera performance of the M9. The big issues with the new sensor is the increased resolution of 20mp vs the 4mp on the HTC One M8, which (as you noticed) makes images in low-light conditions quite bad. This has nothing to do with HTC though, it's the same story for everyone who cramps in such a high resolution in a sensor that is way to small. A normal DSLR camera (Canon 600D, Nikon D7100 etc.) struggles with the same thing although they got a massively bigger sensor to cope with the resolution. Based on this, I guess they may be able to fix the daylight quality quite a bit along the way. The low-light however, not as convinced due to the issues I said above. They may very well be able to make it BETTER, but not as good as it was with the M8 in my mind. Just look at the Note 4 and Z3 (and Z4 I guess) with massive resolutions on their cameras aswell, the Note 4 (16mp) is brilliant in daylight although it's worse in low-light compared to the iPhone 6 (which got a 8mp sensor). It will get better along the way, but I don't think we will ever see the M9 do low-light shots without some of the issues you asked about, like artifacts, noise and details failing to stand out. Although I do hope I am wrong about it

I hope Jonny too but I can't entirely rely on hope here. Can you give me reasonable example of how HTC improved camera in the past? I am not here to bash the brand that I love but I want to be reasonable. I still have purple fringe on my M7 for that reason I sent it back just a couple of days ago.

n3tr0m said:
You're not the only one making a question out of the camera performance of the M9. The big issues with the new sensor is the increased resolution of 20mp vs the 4mp on the HTC One M8, which (as you noticed) makes images in low-light conditions quite bad. This has nothing to do with HTC though, it's the same story for everyone who cramps in such a high resolution in a sensor that is way to small. A normal DSLR camera (Canon 600D, Nikon D7100 etc.) struggles with the same thing although they got a massively bigger sensor to cope with the resolution. Based on this, I guess they may be able to fix the daylight quality quite a bit along the way. The low-light however, not as convinced due to the issues I said above. They may very well be able to make it BETTER, but not as good as it was with the M8 in my mind. Just look at the Note 4 and Z3 (and Z4 I guess) with massive resolutions on their cameras aswell, the Note 4 (16mp) is brilliant in daylight although it's worse in low-light compared to the iPhone 6 (which got a 8mp sensor). It will get better along the way, but I don't think we will ever see the M9 do low-light shots without some of the issues you asked about, like artifacts, noise and details failing to stand out. Although I do hope I am wrong about it
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As far as I know M9 has Toshiba sensor which being used for the Nokia High end Lumias which perform quite well. The other thing is I can set my camera permanently to 16 Mp or even less so to relief sensor from strain if that helps to get a better image. It's perfectly fine to have 8MP, personally speaking. For instance Iphone 6 Plus currently outperforms pretty much most of the phones in the market.

nebulaoperator said:
As far as I know M9 has Toshiba sensor which being used for the Nokia High end Lumias which perform quite well. The other thing is I can set my camera permanently to 16 Mp or even less so to relief sensor from strain if that helps to get a better image. It's perfectly fine to have 8MP, personally speaking. For instance Iphone 6 Plus currently outperforms pretty much most of the phones in the market.
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Sure it is developed by Toshiba, i am not sure if its the same they use in the Lumia series though. The fact that "reducing" the camera down to 16mp or even less to make the images better is something I doubt highly especially with a mobile. I dont see how that would change the outcome when it's still a 20mp physically in there. Might be wrong here, but I don't see right away how that would make images in low-light any better. In my experience with the Z1 it didn't help much dumping the resolution from 20mp down to 8mp (which was the auto-mode setting). Another thing I see as a potential issue for HTC compared to Sony is the fact that Sony makes and develops their sensor themself, and that should make it easier for them to optimize it and make it better. HTC on the other hand does not make it's own sensor and has "learn" or whatever I should say the Toshiba sensor compared to Sony who made them by themself. That should, at least in my eyes, give Sony an advantage in the optimization part. Which they never figured out properly in the Z1 (and Z2 & Z3?) as far as I know.

Let me look in the future..
*starts rubbing my Crystal balls...*
.....
It's getting warmed....
Okay I am seeing something...
The answer for which you are looking for lies within you. You may not know it now but you will in the near future. The key is to follow your heart and don't make weird threads on xda.
Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

I am looking forward to the M9 as i currently own a M7. To the point, after M7 came out nokia came out with Lumia 925, which had 8MP sensor and took better low light photos than the UltraPixel, One would think that in the last 2 years Htc would have gotten better or improved the MP count of the UltraPixel sensor, but that didn't happen.
As far as the current 16MP sensor is concerned, i hope that reducing the resolution slightly say 8MP and increasing the exposure/shutter time would atleast be able to provide results similar to UltraPixle in a 8MP resolution.

n3tr0m said:
Sure it is developed by Toshiba, i am not sure if its the same they use in the Lumia series though. The fact that "reducing" the camera down to 16mp or even less to make the images better is something I doubt highly especially with a mobile. I dont see how that would change the outcome when it's still a 20mp physically in there. Might be wrong here, but I don't see right away how that would make images in low-light any better. In my experience with the Z1 it didn't help much dumping the resolution from 20mp down to 8mp (which was the auto-mode setting). Another thing I see as a potential issue for HTC compared to Sony is the fact that Sony makes and develops their sensor themself, and that should make it easier for them to optimize it and make it better. HTC on the other hand does not make it's own sensor and has "learn" or whatever I should say the Toshiba sensor compared to Sony who made them by themself. That should, at least in my eyes, give Sony an advantage in the optimization part. Which they never figured out properly in the Z1 (and Z2 & Z3?) as far as I know.
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I am looking at some oversampling info on wikipedia. Thats exactly what Nokia did with pure view ,for instance, combining pixels into cluster to make one better pixel with improved characteristics . Then technically speaking reducing mp size can enable sensor to perform better. Thanks for bringing it out about Sony. Your thoughts so much parallel of mine about they inability to nail their camera performance taking into account they sensor plus all experience. This could due to the reason they don't actually work close enough to Sony photographic department and more or less on they own. Not sharing the love between themselve From my observation it's a lot about soft optimization, as you mention in your post , and here I can not to finish my post without mentioning 1+1 camera transformation that occurred in period from release date up until now. Camera performance is very good.

RaXxaa said:
I am looking forward to the M9 as i currently own a M7. To the point, after M7 came out nokia came out with Lumia 925, which had 8MP sensor and took better low light photos than the UltraPixel, One would think that in the last 2 years Htc would have gotten better or improved the MP count of the UltraPixel sensor, but that didn't happen.
As far as the current 16MP sensor is concerned, i hope that reducing the resolution slightly say 8MP and increasing the exposure/shutter time would atleast be able to provide results similar to UltraPixle in a 8MP resolution.
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If they do something like Nokia did with oversampling pixel it might work ( just an idea) but taking into account they didn't succeed in ultra pixel technology , given two years, I can only hope. I don't really know much about new toshiba sensor and what is it capable of.

badboy47 said:
Let me look in the future..
*starts rubbing my Crystal balls...*
.....
It's getting warmed....
Okay I am seeing something...
The answer for which you are looking for lies within you. You may not know it now but you will in the near future. The key is to follow your heart and don't make weird threads on xda.
Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
"Weird "is a strong word but taking into account the amount of humour you used in your reply I take it lightly with a smile on my face

nebulaoperator said:
I am looking at some oversampling info on wikipedia. Thats exactly what Nokia did with pure view ,for instance, combining pixels into cluster to make one better pixel with improved characteristics . Then technically speaking reducing mp size can enable sensor to perform better. Thanks for bringing it out about Sony. Your thoughts so much parallel of mine about they inability to nail their camera performance taking into account they sensor plus all experience. This could due to the reason they don't actually work close enough to Sony photographic department and more or less on they own. Not sharing the love between themselve From my observation it's a lot about soft optimization, as you mention in your post , and here I can not to finish my post without mentioning 1+1 camera transformation that occurred in period from release date up until now. Camera performance is very good.
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Alrighty then. Thats an awesome feature! Really hope that HTC can make the same magic as Nokia did with their Lumia series based on what you found out on Wikipedia etc. I will be more than pleased if the camera on the M9 outperforms the camera placed in the Z4, that should tell everybody that HTC did an amazing job optimizing it when they beat Sony and their own sensor

I've looked at some comparison photo's from gsmarena and personally I don't think it's much worse than the iPhone 6 shots they posted.

Think the day light pictures will probably be great, but the low light ones may be not so much. Without being any company's fanboy there is a great chance that the M9 camera won't be the best.

I have no idea what HTC did but images are getting very good ...at least in this series : http://www.sogi.com.tw/mobile/articles/6239319-HTC+One+M9、M8兩代旗艦機相機實拍對決！

Nexus 5X poor video stabilization. Something we have to live with? Can it be fixed?

Hello,
Im looking to upgrade my Nexus 5 and ive been going through lots and lots of reviews, videos, pictures of many of the new phones out right now. Z5, S6, Nexus 5X.
I really like the Nexus 5X despite some of it shortcomings but one thing i REALLY have a hard time accepting is how shaky the picture is when recording video compared to iphone 6s, Sony Z5 and others.
Here is a video showing it against the Moto X pure:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_zth08zFLw
The Nexus 5x i horrible Is that something we will just have to accept because it lacks OIS or is it possible to fix software wise in a camera update or using a 3rd party camera app. I must say that in its current form its unusable.
Regards
Jacob

indeed it is shaky...
haven't tried it but this one has video stabilization - https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.sourceforge.opencamera

Maybe someone with a nexus 5x could try opencamera to record a video and post the result?

Yeah I was hoping 1080p would at least get decent software stability. It has enough pixels for it. ?
Sent from my Sprint Galaxy S5.

Does anyone know? Anyone tried opencamera?

Just my $.02. It was my understanding from the Launch event that it doesn't have image stabilization. Something about how it didn't need it with the upgraded light gathering capability of the camera.

The Moto X pure doesn't have OIS either, it's done in software

I'll just splurge for a gimbal. LOL
Sent from my Sprint Galaxy S5.

gomylle said:
Does anyone know? Anyone tried opencamera?
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Just tried it and it seems decent. Good thing is that OpenCamera properly implements the sensor orientation detection, so the preview and resulting files are correct. It has experimental support for Camera 2 API, which needs to be enabled in order to expose the EIS setting.
At high resolution (4k), there's significant lag that's recorded in the videos with the EIS enabled. Google did say the 808 couldn't handle it; maybe they weren't just blowing smoke?
At 1080p, it seems to help reduce the shakiness by a fair amount; it's no OIS replacement for sure, but I'd say better than not having anything.

Funny how google said larger pixels negated the need for OIS. Did anyone really believe them? Did HTC not try the super mega sized pixels before?

Evo_Shift said:
Funny how google said larger pixels negated the need for OIS. Did anyone really believe them? Did HTC not try the super mega sized pixels before?
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From pics I saw it does fine without OIS. But videos would have benefited. And yes they coined it as "ultra-pixels".
Sent from my Sprint Galaxy S5.

Look at this. Amazing:
http://www.frequency.com/video/nexus-5x-stabilized-4k-footage-using/244831773?cid=5-9852

Hi
Evo_Shift said:
Funny how google said larger pixels negated the need for OIS. Did anyone really believe them? Did HTC not try the super mega sized pixels before?
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OIS is only really of benefit for photos at shutter speeds less than 1/60th second, unless you have a zoom lens, where it is helpful at higher shutter speeds, as the more you are zoomed, the more amplified any body shake is. For smartphones with their wide angle view, camera shake is not too much of a problem for most typical situations, and any daytime scene OIS is completely pointless as the shutter speed is plenty high enough to freeze out any camera shake. The larger pixels help as the ISO can be higher without too much noise meaning a faster shutter speed can be used.
For video the situation is different as images are taken over time, so it's the movement in camera position between each picture that needs to smoothed, although the fashion these days on most documentaries and TV shows is to deliberately shake the camera around until it's a nauseating mess with whip zooms into the mix Still it's a good indicator I find for knowing the program is trash and not worth watching :victory:
OIS in smart phones helps a little with video, but the tiny lens optics and limited movement means they don't do nearly as well as a dedicated camcorder with OIS, which gives some amazing results. The link to the stablised 5X video is using a $300 device, so if anyone is that serious about their smart phone video, then for that money we might as well take a much bigger step in image quality and convenience and features and get a dedicated camcorder.
The elephant in the room with the Nexus 6P is EIS, this is the poor mans image stabilizer, yes it does help stabilize the video to a certain degree, but to do this it has to crop the image. It appears to be doing this the cheap way in software (hence needing the powerful chip), taking a 1080P video, then zooming into so it can have a window of view to pan around in, this means the resulting video has less resolution, see the clips here https://youtu.be/HV4rcFuUlUc?t=246 and compare the detail between the two, there is a drop in resolution on the 6P. Better EIS systems capture a larger image at the sensor, then would track and pan a 1920x1080 window across it so no resolution drop, but that requires more low level work with the camera hardware and dedicated chips to do a good job.
Record a 1080P video with the 5X, upload to YouTube and get it to apply stabilization and it will do the same thing, may even turn out better than the 6P EIS as it doesn't need to be done in real time so a bit more care can be taken.
Will the 6P stabilize 4K video? I somehow doubt it has the power to do that, so for 4K it's an even playing field between the two.
Regards
Phil

PhilipL said:
Hi
Record a 1080P video with the 5X, upload to YouTube and get it to apply stabilization and it will do the same thing, may even turn out better than the 6P EIS as it doesn't need to be done in real time so a bit more care can be taken.
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Hmm, aren't those phones using the much higher resolution of the sensor (at least about 4k) to stabilize the video by changing the captured frame on the sensor corresponding to the phones movement? At least i thought that's the reasoning why this works only up to 1080p (which would be preserved, in that case).

I think this could be quite useful for the next Nexus http://techcrunch.com/2015/01/09/imint-wants-to-bring-real-time-video-stabilization-to-android/

what is the difference between eis 2.0 in pixel camera and old one in nexus 6p ?

i saw in google pixel specs that include EIS 2.0 " electronic image stabilizer " , and does not include OIS " optical image stabilizer " , so i have nexus 6p is it mean that i have old version of EIS ?
what is the version of EIS in nexus 6p and what is the deference between two and can recorde 4k with EIS ?
the answer will decide to buy pixel or not , because video recording important to me .
thank you in advance

ali8383 said:
i saw in google pixel specs that include EIS 2.0 " electronic image stabilizer " , and does not include OIS " optical image stabilizer " , so i have nexus 6p is it mean that i have old version of EIS ?
what is the version of EIS in nexus 6p and what is the deference between two and can recorde 4k with EIS ?
the answer will decide to buy pixel or not , because video recording important to me .
thank you in advance
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
From what I've gathered the stabilization in the 6p is purely software based.
On the pixel however, Google has tied the camera to the gyroscope. The gyroscope polls 200 times a second to stabilize the image. So while it doesn't have Ois, it's not just software on the pixel.

scandalousk said:
From what I've gathered the stabilization in the 6p is purely software based.
On the pixel however, Google has tied the camera to the gyroscope. The gyroscope polls 200 times a second to stabilize the image. So while it doesn't have Ois, it's not just software on the pixel.
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tigercranestyle said:
^^^ what this guy said, though i thought i heard it polled the gyroscope 2000/second. looked around, but can't remember where i read/heard it. but yeah, @ali8383, 6p is strictly software based while pixel is sw/hw.
also the nexus 6p couldn't use eis to record 4k. the pixel can.
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Thank you for explaination

Could the 6P not poll its gyro also given the software?

B3501 said:
Could the 6P not poll its gyro also given the software?
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Probably doesn't have the CPU power to handle everything needed... kind of how HDR+ is way better on the Pixels. That, or Google is pulling shady moves and purposely hindering past devices to push new product.

I don't know what they are using for stability, but I did notice the pictures from the Pixel phones were much more sharper and detailed. Check out this video I made of a real world camera test on youtube. I got to play with the actual phones a few days before they came out and this was the first things i checked out. Just google techplughd. Thanks

This might help (go to minute 28)
https://www.dpreview.com/news/9782565306/google-launches-pixel-and-pixel-xl-smartphones
EDIT...the video in the link isn't set to the right time, I will tell you what time the video stabilization is shown.

4redstars said:
This might help (go to minute 28)
https://www.dpreview.com/news/9782565306/google-launches-pixel-and-pixel-xl-smartphones
EDIT...the video in the link isn't set to the right time, I will tell you what time the video stabilization is shown.
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thank you i watched the video again and understand now how it works .

Even when it seems a nice feature, the lack of OIS is still a sin in 2016 and for the price they pretend to charge.
Besides this, pinging the gyroscope 200 times per second is still more expensive (in terms of processing) than just add the proper hardware.
I don't believe this kind of stabilization could be better than normal EIS, so I'm staying skeptical until I see real conditions videos.

Here's a really good explanation of OIS vs EIS and being a current Nexus 6p user lowlight has been phenomenal so I'm excited about the Gyroscope and don't even care about not having OIS really.
https://9to5google.com/2016/10/10/g...firms-that-eis-will-still-work-with-4k-video/

I have a guess why no OIS, think this , without a OIS Gyroscope data perfectly match how camera lens moves, and software can pull the data out to correct the image, with OIS, the data from Gyroscope doesn't match the lens move any more, the EIS can only use the data from the camera to do stabilization which is less effective (cost more CPU and worse result). Some prople may argue OIS hardware can do the work, to be honest, OIS can offset some hand shake during low light taking pics, but during video recording, that little OIS can offer very little help smooth out the image, which actually not worth losing the ability to actually use Gyroscope to correct the image which can create more stable image. and Consider the pixel size of the camera is very large, much larger than even note 7, the low light shutter speed is actually fast enough so OIS really can't make much difference here. I use GS7 and I do notice taking low light pics take longer expose time, but google claim the pixel phone doesn't, which proves what I am guessing here. Let's see some real life test before jump to a conclusion, OIS is good, unless it is a big rig or on a big camera. On a phone, we just pick whatever works.

Does the Pixel have any sort of non-software based image stabilization for photos? (Gyroscope stabilization has only been mentioned for videos).

4redstars said:
Here's a really good explanation of OIS vs EIS and being a current Nexus 6p user lowlight has been phenomenal so I'm excited about the Gyroscope and don't even care about not having OIS really.
https://9to5google.com/2016/10/10/g...firms-that-eis-will-still-work-with-4k-video/
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jeffonion said:
I have a guess why no OIS, think this , without a OIS Gyroscope data perfectly match how camera lens moves, and software can pull the data out to correct the image, with OIS, the data from Gyroscope doesn't match the lens move any more, the EIS can only use the data from the camera to do stabilization which is less effective (cost more CPU and worse result). Some prople may argue OIS hardware can do the work, to be honest, OIS can offset some hand shake during low light taking pics, but during video recording, that little OIS can offer very little help smooth out the image, which actually not worth losing the ability to actually use Gyroscope to correct the image which can create more stable image. and Consider the pixel size of the camera is very large, much larger than even note 7, the low light shutter speed is actually fast enough so OIS really can't make much difference here. I use GS7 and I do notice taking low light pics take longer expose time, but google claim the pixel phone doesn't, which proves what I am guessing here. Let's see some real life test before jump to a conclusion, OIS is good, unless it is a big rig or on a big camera. On a phone, we just pick whatever works.
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There is no "data" from OIS, is just a mechanical system in order to compensate any movement made bu the user. The compensation is immediately and there is no need to process anything, and that's why is the preferred for most of the people. Besides, OIS help a lot with low light pictures and even when the Nexus 6P was really capable, the addition of OIS could have make a formidable experience in camera.
https://youtu.be/l5d2F6nP5MY?t=25s
EIS can't help with pictures, is only used for video, and even when it does somehow the job, the results are not so good, and it tends to have a lot of jelly effect. When you have OIS available, you can also make it work in conjunction with EIS and the results are awesome. Another point for the OIS is that it works with all resolutions, while EIS is dependant on the resolution and the processing power.
You can think this: best smartphone's cameras are the ones which include OIS, and they present really decent results even in low light. OIS helps you both in photo and video, while EIS is only for video.
I changed some months ago from a phone with OIS to one that doesn't have it, and I can say it's a world of difference in detail, even when the second one has better camera in paper, and when you mix the OIS and EIS, you get a really nice stabilized video without having to sacrifice much.
sabesh said:
Does the Pixel have any sort of non-software based image stabilization for photos? (Gyroscope stabilization has only been mentioned for videos).
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Exactly my point, Google is presuming about its new camera and its new stabilization, but most of the people take more photos than videos the whole time, and as far as I know, OIS is the only way to proper "stabilize" when taking pictures. Besides this, I would love to see manual controls and long exposure in this camera to see how good it does considering the lack of OIS and see if it's on pair with other smartphones.

Galaxo60 said:
Even when it seems a nice feature, the lack of OIS is still a sin in 2016 and for the price they pretend to charge.
Besides this, pinging the gyroscope 200 times per second is still more expensive (in terms of processing) than just add the proper hardware.
I don't believe this kind of stabilization could be better than normal EIS, so I'm staying skeptical until I see real conditions videos.
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But think about it. OIS is usually requested due to it performing better in low light conditions and stabilize the video (it's not to prevent blurry pictures). Google opted to go with a larger sensor that has a larger pixels, which in turn offer much better performance in low light. They then stabilized the camera with the gyroscope to prevent the jelly effect during recording. It's just a different take on the camera that will probably work just as well. Even better maybe.
Google has stated that the camera has a special core dedicated to it. Meaning processing power isn't lost at all.

scandalousk said:
But think about it. OIS is usually requested due to it performing better in low light conditions and stabilize the video (it's not to prevent blurry pictures).
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Wrong, OIS help you a lot by taking pictures in low light condition with a long exposure and prevent the blurry pictures, and that's why is a really nice adition to have.

Galaxo60 said:
Wrong, OIS help you a lot by taking pictures in low light condition with a long exposure and prevent the blurry pictures, and that's why is a really nice adition to have.
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Longer exposure time means that the camera is able to capture more light... Guess what else captures a lot more light? The large 1.55 micron pixels that the pixel phone has.
Taking pictures in the dark results in more noise, not blurred pictures perse.

With the f2.0 aperture, the pictures will have less depth vs a f1.7/1.8 aperture. Is that correct?
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

scandalousk said:
Longer exposure time means that the camera is able to capture more light... Guess what else captures a lot more light? The large 1.55 micron pixels that the pixel phone has.
Taking pictures in the dark results in more noise, not blurred pictures perse.
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I agree with you in these points, but the Nexus 6P has the same camera and still produces some unexpected results time to time, so if Google nailed it with this, I think many people would be happy.
This is some test in low light, and it seems focus is still messed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbLZq52fVQM

Galaxo60 said:
I agree with you in these points, but the Nexus 6P has the same camera and still produces some unexpected results time to time, so if Google nailed it with this, I think many people would be happy.
This is some test in low light, and it seems focus is still messed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbLZq52fVQM
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Click to collapse
The Nexus 6P does not use the same camera as the Pixel phones. It's a different sensor. Although both phones have 1.55 micron pixels. The Nexus 6P also doesn't use any hardware based stabilization like the Pixel phone either.
And while focusing didn't happen in that videos. It's a single instance where OIS wouldn't have made a difference since the Nexus 6P did focus.
The best thing to do is just wait and see. I'm sure Google will give us something stellar.

scandalousk said:
The Nexus 6P does not use the same camera as the Pixel phones. It's a different sensor. Although both phones have 1.55 micron pixels. The Nexus 6P also doesn't use any hardware based stabilization like the Pixel phone either.
And while focusing didn't happen in that videos. It's a single instance where OIS wouldn't have made a difference since the Nexus 6P did focus.
The best thing to do is just wait and see. I'm sure Google will give us something stellar.
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This looks pretty nice:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oftbNhz8fU

Photo quality

Say "cheese", then rate this thread to express how photos taken with the Google Pixel come out. A higher rating indicates that photos offer rich color (without over-saturating), sharp detail (with all subjects in-focus), and appropriate exposure (with even lighting).
Then, drop a comment if you have anything to add!

I'm personally really liking the camera. Camera is always my top priority and I've gone through five phones in the past year trying to find the complete package. I'm coming directly from a S7. While I wish the main camera has a few more trucks up its sleeve it is quick and I love how it animates and names collages etc from the app instead of having to upload the photos to google photos and do the processing there.
I'll be putting up random shots over the next few days in my Google Photos folder: https://goo.gl/photos/vYAoiyxMw5VGSGPHA I tried attaching many of the shots but XDA yells at me for going over the size limit!

It's good. On par with my s7 edge other than maybe having better dynamic range.
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

I'm really torn between my S7 and my Pixel for image quality tbh, I did quite a few comparisons on a blog this afternoon, results are here
https://carljones.wordpress.com/2016/10/22/pixel-vs-galaxys7/
Attached a few thumbnail images, full-size ones on blog post.
In some instances I prefer the pixel, in others the galaxy, I wish the built-in camera app on pixel had a pro/manual mode.

The low light performance is night and day (if you'll pardon the pun) coming from a Moto X 2014. Fast and sharp, which comes in handy when trying to grab shots of my hamster. Resolution not original but this is in VERY low light.

I have had the S7 Edge, S7, Note 7 and now the Pixel. Had the S6 Edge before that as well as an Honor 8 with its dual camera. Basically, I too have tried nearly every phone that's been out this year looking for the best camera as that's the most important thing to me too.
I never quite liked the S7 camera despite the reviews and ratings. What the reviews don't tell you is that the f 1.7 aperture means a very very narrow 'field of focus'. i.e., large parts of the same photo will be blurry / out of focus. I am not talking about depth of field, I am well aware of what that is and the implication of the f 1.7. Depth of field applies to macro shots. What I am talking about is different parts of photos being out of focus even for landscape shots or general everyday shots where the entire photo is expected to be in focus.
I got around this with my S7 era cameras by using pro mode and multi-AF with matrix metering. But pro mode cannot be set as default, so you had to launch the app and manually switch to pro mode each time.
Anyway, I like the Pixel camera a lot. I think an f 2.0 is a good spec for a camera phone. Anything higher than that comes with too many compromises. There has been a lot of advancement in 2016 in smartphone camers, but they are all around the 12 mp resolution. I'd like to see the same advancements (PDAF, LAF, dual pixel etc.) be made with higher resolution. You can only get so much detail from a 12 mp sensor...

Come on guys dont be cheap, lets see it!

Snapped these last night downtown.

Sorry, wrong forum/post.

Took these just for the ****s of it

I've been mostly pleased with the Pixel's camera. It's very *good*. But after a week using it alongside my S7 and iPhone 7, I'd still rather have either of those in my pocket as my day to day shooter. The Pixel tends to take dimmer/darker shots because it's trying so hard to balance out dynamic range. This can make for some really great shots, but it can also really underexpose if there's a focal point (like, I don't know, a person?) in the shot you're taking. The Pixel also struggles with auto-focus, or its auto-focus simply isn't very intelligent.
Example, kids within a couple of feet of me... 5 shots with the Pixel, each one of them came out underexposed and with their faces blurry, even when I tried to get it to re-focus. My iPhone 7 got them in one shot and properly exposed their faces. In those shots, the Pixel's shots looked great in the background of the photo, but the focus of the pictures were not well-handled. The iPhone 7's shot overexposed the background a bit, but it nailed the focus of the pictures the first time.
It's a very good camera, but I think it's still a step below the top flagships from Samsung and Apple right now, when taking into account all aspects of the cameras.

Examples?

Okay so I'm gonna put it out there. I found my Nexus 6P camera perform better than the Pixel. In fact, I'm gonna say that in some low light conditions, my wife's iPhone 6 Plus performed better, which hasn't been true for me in the last 2 years.
Regarding autofocus in VIDEO, it absolutely nails it and I could not get it to fault. I was able to get it very close to the subject too. I find in shooting PICTURES only, the autofocus is not as reliable. Besides, the HDRa is actually not as good as HDR+. I thought they made HDR ALWAYS ON but it seems this isn't the case. I also found the frame rate switching to be a pain in video. You have to back out of the viewfinder to settings of the app and choose the resolution for the right FPS options to show.
I will share some comparisons with the Pixel v the 6Plus later tonight.
Sent from my Pixel using XDA-Developers mobile app

Has anyone had issues with bad stitching for panorama shots? Everyone I've taken has had some pretty bad misalignment. I understand you want to keep the phone in relatively the same spot the whole time and that the closer things are the harder it is to get it right, but even my co workers S5 takes better panorama shots than this...
Edit: I should also note I'm using the stock Google camera panorama option and set the quality to "high". App looks like it's up to date.
*Attached a sample image*
Sent from my Google Pixel

rickyg946 said:
Has anyone had issues with bad stitching for panorama shots? Everyone I've taken has had some pretty bad misalignment. I understand you want to keep the phone in relatively the same spot the whole time and that the closer things are the harder it is to get it right, but even my co workers S5 takes better panorama shots than this...
Edit: I should also note I'm using the stock Google camera panorama option and set the quality to "high". App looks like it's up to date.
*Attached a sample image*
Sent from my Google Pixel
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes, but this is not new to the pixel. my nexus 5X (and i understand the 6P, and even previous nexus/google phones) had the same issue. no matter how well i align, it seems to always stitch poorly. What's odd is that if you use the Photosphere mode to take the same "panoramic" shot, the stitching is vastly improved. I'm still very surprised this doesn't surface in the reviews. maybe no one takes panoramas anymore? maybe you and I are just really bad at it?!

fitchpuckman said:
yes, but this is not new to the pixel. my nexus 5X (and i understand the 6P, and even previous nexus/google phones) had the same issue. no matter how well i align, it seems to always stitch poorly. What's odd is that if you use the Photosphere mode to take the same "panoramic" shot, the stitching is vastly improved. I'm still very surprised this doesn't surface in the reviews. maybe no one takes panoramas anymore? maybe you and I are just really bad at it?!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ah, ok, I'll give photosphere a shot. Yea I'm surprised I haven't seen more people complain about it. Or maybe it really is just us ?
Sent from my Google Pixel

rickyg946 said:
Ah, ok, I'll give photosphere a shot. Yea I'm surprised I haven't seen more people complain about it.
Sent from my Moto X+2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
agreed. even trying/having luck with photosphere isn't the solution, this should just work. I was definitely disappointed after my initial use of the camera being so positive, then a few days later realizing the basic panorama stitching was still crappy. good thing is these things are typically almost completely software related, bad thing is there's strangely no push for google to improve it.

rickyg946 said:
Has anyone had issues with bad stitching for panorama shots? Everyone I've taken has had some pretty bad misalignment. I understand you want to keep the phone in relatively the same spot the whole time and that the closer things are the harder it is to get it right, but even my co workers S5 takes better panorama shots than this...
Edit: I should also note I'm using the stock Google camera panorama option and set the quality to "high". App looks like it's up to date.
*Attached a sample image*
Sent from my Google Pixel
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes I have this issue too
Sent from my Pixel using XDA-Developers mobile app

LG V30 vs S9/ +

Seen 2 videos so far of the V30 up against the S9 series and its holding its own quite well.
What are you guys opinions?

V30 for better battery and camera. End of story.
If you had an S8 right now you would be better off on both those parameters than with an S9
Sammy will fix things. The snapdragon seems to be ok with battery but the exynos variant doesn't do well for battery. Further optimisation needed especially for exynos
Camera issues will be the same for both
Fixes needed which is kinda strange because these aren't the kind of problems Korean phones have ootb

Had both, sold the S9+ after 10 days, couldn't get on with Sammy software and device was just a little too big and heavy. Very happy to have gone back to my V30.

Seriously, not sure how you can even think about saying that the V30 camera is better than the S9, unless you are talking about granularity of controls. The quality of the S9+ blows the doors off the v30..especially indoors/low light. I have both and the S9+ is being shipped back to Samsung tomorrow because I love my V30 size and feel, not to mention the wide angle lens. However, saying v30 camera quality is better than S9+ is laughable. V30 is still a decent camera though and I can't do without wide-angle lens. I'm not sure why others have not done it...oh wait, maybe we need Apple to do it first then EVERYONE else will. lol

i owned lg v30 plus for 5 months and i got S9plus from 10 days and i sold it back yesterday and returned to my lgv30 the reason behind that s9plus has a big problem with dropping calls and during the call i am loosing the connection and got silence for 5 to 10 sec on the same conditions i was using lg in i searched and found it's a common problem and they are waiting a fix through an update the second thing is battery life the s9+ doesn't hold for a day with the same usage , also the network switching between 4g and 3g is going crazy and so bad with s9+
sure the camera of S9+ much better than lg v30 especially the front facing camera which is a **** in low light in lg v30

souty666 said:
sure the camera of S9+ much better than lg v30 especially the front facing camera which is a **** in low light in lg v30
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nobody picks a phone on the strength of the front camera.
---------- Post added at 04:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:46 PM ----------
bitwiser said:
Seriously, not sure how you can even think about saying that the V30 camera is better than the S9, unless you are talking about granularity of controls. The quality of the S9+ blows the doors off the v30..especially indoors/low light. I have both and the S9+ is being shipped back to Samsung tomorrow because I love my V30 size and feel, not to mention the wide angle lens. However, saying v30 camera quality is better than S9+ is laughable. V30 is still a decent camera though and I can't do without wide-angle lens. I'm not sure why others have not done it...oh wait, maybe we need Apple to do it first then EVERYONE else will. lol
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
heh, what do you even know about cameras ? The V30 has a F1.6, the S9 is F1.5. So in what way does the S9 blow away the V30 again ?
https://youtu.be/NLsezWgArh4
I'm not seeing the 'quality' of the S9 blow away its predecessors here. Oh! they happen to be F1.7's btw Why's that ? F1.5 an all
https://youtu.be/lW1p8ONzmOY
Why is the S9 struggling to get focus in scenes the last three generations would not. You mean to tell me the V30 or any LG since the G4 would have trouble focusing in these low light scenes ? Forget LG, S6 up to S8 would have no problem in those scenes
The only place i give sammy the edge is faster focus with video. You do much video ?
https://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=75896403&postcount=9
Demonstrates the problem with dual aperture and stills within a certain range of light levels
First has a higher ISO than necesary and thererfore will lose at the pixel level in terms of details to every good camera that came out since 2015, the second blows out the image entirely with the oh so amazing f1.5
Numerous photos i see this overbrightening going on. Why. if HDR+ makes photos low contrast ie flat and boring then the S9 is making them worse for no good reason
Now, i have zero problems having to use manual if it means i get a better photo, in fact a camera that doesn't have manual is worthless as far as i'm concerned but try telling that to someone who just bought this phone for the camera. Paid big bucks for it

Oreo Update
souty666 said:
i owned lg v30 plus for 5 months and i got S9plus from 10 days and i sold it back yesterday and returned to my lgv30 the reason behind that s9plus has a big problem with dropping calls and during the call i am loosing the connection and got silence for 5 to 10 sec on the same conditions i was using lg in i searched and found it's a common problem and they are waiting a fix through an update the second thing is battery life the s9+ doesn't hold for a day with the same usage , also the network switching between 4g and 3g is going crazy and so bad with s9+
sure the camera of S9+ much better than lg v30 especially the front facing camera which is a **** in low light in lg v30
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi,
Did you get Android Oreo update for LG V30 plus? Any idea when it will arrive ?

I almost sold my V30+ for a S9+ but to be honest, I wouldn't be rushing out to buy an S9 or S9+ just yet. They have a world wide issue with dead spots on the screen... And of course their launcher sucks dogs balls.. Useability is high on my list, and after 5 min playing with the S9+ in store, I wanted to puke.
If you're keen on going Samsung, maybe wait for the Note 9... Samsung just can't get anything right at the moment - seems hardware issue after hardware issue..... Samsung need to take a break, and stop rushing phones to market
My V30+ has been flawless since picking it up in Nov 2017. I'll be sticking with it until the V40+ comes

One Twelve said:
heh, what do you even know about cameras ? The V30 has a F1.6, the S9 is F1.5. So in what way does the S9 blow away the V30 again ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You know that's not how it works right? Aperture is only one aspect of the amount of light that a sensor picks up, the other being sensor and pixel size.
Although the S9 has more or less the same aperture the pixel size is nearly 50% larger than the v30 pixels, it also has a 1/2.5" sensor versus 1/3.1", this will have a very large effect on low light quality.
For example a full frame sensor has over a stop of extra light gathering ability vs an APSC sensor, equivalent to the jump from an F2.0 to an F1.4 lens, I have no idea what the exact ration will be with these sensors but it is likely to be quite significant.
There is nothing wrong with the V30 camera, but physics dictates it is going to be significantly worse in low light than the S9.

Aborto said:
You know that's not how it works right? Aperture is only one aspect of the amount of light that a sensor picks up, the other being sensor and pixel size.
Although the S9 has more or less the same aperture the pixel size is nearly 50% larger than the v30 pixels, it also has a 1/2.5" sensor versus 1/3.1", this will have a very large effect on low light quality.
For example a full frame sensor has over a stop of extra light gathering ability vs an APSC sensor, equivalent to the jump from an F2.0 to an F1.4 lens, I have no idea what the exact ration will be with these sensors but it is likely to be quite significant.
There is nothing wrong with the V30 camera, but physics dictates it is going to be significantly worse in low light than the S9.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agree with what you've said but LG manages to squeeze out a lot from a small sensor despite the smaller pixel size. Have you seen some of the photos from the AI camera that only the Korean variant has for now. They have improved clarity and sharpness over the past.
The V30 will be a more reliable shooter than the S9 in the examples i've cited. The V30 would not have the problems the S9 has.
Did you see Max's video ? i looked at every photo he took at the pixel level and was shaking my head over how the S9 couldn't get focus. What good is the biggest sensor going to do in that case
The S8 or Note 8 would be better competition to the V30. If you can handhold 1/2s you will beat what auto can do on the V30 because you let in two full stops of light in this case. That will exceed what a bigger sensor can do unless you repeat the same with it as well
Video isn't going to be too far off due to the small differernce in aperture, only focus will be quicker with samsung. And this is the strange thing, focus is fast on video but couldn't do it with stills

One Twelve said:
Agree with what you've said but LG manages to squeeze out a lot from a small sensor despite the smaller pixel size.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes I think it is a great camera, with the best software implementation and interface I've tried.
But low light is not its strong point, in saying that mobile cameras are always so bad there versus my dedicated cameras that it doesn't matter that much, if I expect to want to take usable night shots I'd take a real camera. On the other hand the wide angle camera on this has amazed me for daytime landscape shots.

Aborto said:
Yes I think it is a great camera, with the best software implementation and interface I've tried.
But low light is not its strong point, in saying that mobile cameras are always so bad there versus my dedicated cameras that it doesn't matter that much, if I expect to want to take usable night shots I'd take a real camera. On the other hand the wide angle camera on this has amazed me for daytime landscape shots.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The one camera that will dethrone all is potentially the P20 pro. You can take 4s handheld shots. Sharp. Get this it has no OIS!
Low light handling with huawei has always been good, the problem is you need a way to stabilise it. The image quality improves considerably if you let it have 10s say. It won't get brighter just better details
Course that is just the stills department, Video is likely to be another story.
I think low light has improved over the years in terms of how high ISO can go before you don't have a usable photo
Upto 2014 - no higher than ISO 400
2015 - goes up to ISO 800
2017 - now i think 1250 possibly 1600 is usable
No competition against your dedicated camera but you will always have your phone with you
That wide angle has a magic effect on people even those that don't like to take photos with phones
https://youtu.be/8fRGQ33Q4eU
Thats the G5 and you get the idea

Main reason i wont switch to Samsung is phone size dimensions and screen ratio. Dont like the long and narrow screen that samsung is using.
In my opinion the lg v30 has the perfect size.

Can't find any v30 vs S9 photo comparisons with originals to pixel peep. None out there
I want to see the S9 'blowing away' the V30

One Twelve said:
Agree with what you've said but LG manages to squeeze out a lot from a small sensor despite the smaller pixel size. Have you seen some of the photos from the AI camera that only the Korean variant has for now. They have improved clarity and sharpness over the past.
The V30 will be a more reliable shooter than the S9 in the examples i've cited. The V30 would not have the problems the S9 has.
Did you see Max's video ? i looked at every photo he took at the pixel level and was shaking my head over how the S9 couldn't get focus. What good is the biggest sensor going to do in that case
The S8 or Note 8 would be better competition to the V30. If you can handhold 1/2s you will beat what auto can do on the V30 because you let in two full stops of light in this case. That will exceed what a bigger sensor can do unless you repeat the same with it as well
Video isn't going to be too far off due to the small differernce in aperture, only focus will be quicker with samsung. And this is the strange thing, focus is fast on video but couldn't do it with stills
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry, I love my v30 and it is still my daily driver (shipped the S9+ back today) but in auto mode the S9 was better in almost every situation for me. Not by much except with low light. You can spout stats all day long but unless you are using manual mode the v30 did not come close to the S9. See album. It is almost like someone turns a light on with the S9 photos compared to the v30. I don't know about video since i don't use it much but in low light I can't see how the v30 could produce better/less noise in video either.

bitwiser said:
Sorry, I love my v30 and it is still my daily driver (shipped the S9+ back today) but in auto mode the S9 was better in almost every situation for me. Not by much except with low light. You can spout stats all day long but unless you are using manual mode the v30 did not come close to the S9. See album. It is almost like someone turns a light on with the S9 photos compared to the v30. I don't know about video since i don't use it much but in low light I can't see how the v30 could produce better/less noise in video either.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good, now we can have a conversation. I noticed both LG shots used AI shutter, this is LG's more intelligent night shot.
For a scene like this manual will get you a clearer shot, Been that way since the G4. Just go into manual and click, you don't change any settings at all. It just disables night shot. Will be sharper. Provided it gets focus which i think it did in your shots. Night shot is a mixed bag, there are times it will do quite well and others where it can make things worse
The one of the flowers is what makes you think the light got turned on. It's using spot metering there. The one with the trucks is using the default centre weighted. Note how the exposure is the same but the clarity is better with the S9.
The flowers is interesting because it used 1/5, the auto shots i've seen had it go no slower than 1/10. Well that's a stop's more light AND coupled with a high iso will turn night into day
Drop the LG down to 1/4 and you do the same compared to auto which won't go below 1/10
Pity you've sent it back it would have been good to try some more experiments

One Twelve said:
Good, now we can have a conversation. I noticed both LG shots used AI shutter, this is LG's more intelligent night shot.
For a scene like this manual will get you a clearer shot, Been that way since the G4. Just go into manual and click, you don't change any settings at all. It just disables night shot. Will be sharper. Provided it gets focus which i think it did in your shots. Night shot is a mixed bag, there are times it will do quite well and others where it can make things worse
The one of the flowers is what makes you think the light got turned on. It's using spot metering there. The one with the trucks is using the default centre weighted. Note how the exposure is the same but the clarity is better with the S9.
The flowers is interesting because it used 1/5, the auto shots i've seen had it go no slower than 1/10. Well that's a stop's more light AND coupled with a high iso will turn night into day
Drop the LG down to 1/4 and you do the same compared to auto which won't go below 1/10
Pity you've sent it back it would have been good to try some more experiments
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I understand all that, I'm just saying full auto, which is how most users will use the camera. The v30 is lacking. I don't want to have to press buttons and adjust settings. I just want to pull my phone out and quickly snap a photo or I'll miss the moment. Again, love my v30 and won't give it up for the better camera. However, if I want the best all around quick/auto/consistent camera phone I'll just reach over and grab my wife's pixel 2.

bitwiser said:
I understand all that, I'm just saying full auto, which is how most users will use the camera. The v30 is lacking. I don't want to have to press buttons and adjust settings. I just want to pull my phone out and quickly snap a photo or I'll miss the moment.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And you can do just that if it launches in manual for static subjects in low light. No adjusting settings. Everything is in auto.
The one quirk i've noticed with the V30 only is it doesn't always disable night shot. So even in manual this happens. Didn't happen with earlier LG's
That's the best you can get. So if you compare that with what the sammy does then you will know if any of this pixel micron thing makes a difference or not
Sammy doesn't use a nightshot and i've rolled my eyes as the years went on when comparisons were made with LG's by people who didn't know what to do. So this canard that LG can't do low light very well came up. Reviewers won't do it but users learn early on

One Twelve said:
And you can do just that if it launches in manual for static subjects in low light. No adjusting settings. Everything is in auto.
The one quirk i've noticed with the V30 only is it doesn't always disable night shot. So even in manual this happens. Didn't happen with earlier LG's
That's the best you can get. So if you compare that with what the sammy does then you will know if any of this pixel micron thing makes a difference or not
Sammy doesn't use a nightshot and i've rolled my eyes as the years went on when comparisons were made with LG's by people who didn't know what to do. So this canard that LG can't do low light very well came up. Reviewers won't do it but users learn early on
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I know the v30 can do much better in low light. i'm saying I don't want to have to switch my phone to manual mode every time I want to take photos indoors or in low light. Even if it is just switching the mode. I always live it in auto. That is how I'm comparing the cameras. LG should do a better job with auto mode, plain and simple. I don't have that issue with Pixel 2 either.

bitwiser said:
I know the v30 can do much better in low light. i'm saying I don't want to have to switch my phone to manual mode every time I want to take photos indoors or in low light. Even if it is just switching the mode. I always live it in auto. That is how I'm comparing the cameras. LG should do a better job with auto mode, plain and simple. I don't have that issue with Pixel 2 either.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They've clung on to the night mode thing for a while now. If that happens the LG's losing almost every time.
I've never understood why they wouldn't allow slower shutter speeds in auto. Getting a 1/4 handheld sharp isn't difficult. I guess they are trying to account for people who might not have the steadiest of hands. Same with sammy too from what i could see with Max's shots. What explains the inability of the S9 to get clear shots ? did you find the S9 wanting for focus when you used it in low light. Your macros were fine, but what about outdoors, a harder test
it's rare you will ever get consistently good low light shots in auto particularly if there's bright lights in them even with the best of cameras. Max likes to show how the pixel can do this. Yeah it can and so can huawei. But it isn't hard to do with manual. One day I went around town at night with one set of settings and clicked away. There wasn't even a need for focus. Shots were instant. Sharp, way better & faster than auto. Took over a hundred shots, sometimes in the road with traffic. I had no more than a second or two.
But the pixel flattens images as well. Getting creative with a pixel with HDR+ on is harder than either of the Koreans. Can't do drama with a pixel. And all its strengths reduce with video because its like any other that too with mono recording in audio instead of stereo. I can't get comfortable with a camera that reduces the owner to a button presser