My Pixel XL sees my OTG drive just fine from within the native file explorer - the one that comes up when you first plug the drive in. But curiously, Astro File Manager can't find the drive, either can PowerAmp. They only see internal storage.
I am careful to select "File Transfer" when the drive is first plugged in, so it doesn't think the drive is a power source.
Any ideas why the drive can't be seen via other means other than the native file explorer?
After some investigation, it appears that having an app access, or play, a file on an OTG drive since Android 6.0 has been a non-starter. Security and permissions in the OS seem to be at the root of it (no pun). Getting 6.0+ devices to see and execute files on an OTG drive - beyond the capability provided by the native file browser - seems to need root and/or other interventions that don't seem worth the effort for me.
If anyone else knows different, please let me know.
For me, having an OTG drive handy has value as I can easily copy files to internal memory in a snap when on-the-go, and simply play them from there with the app of my choice. Alternatively, if I were to push my Pixel to capacity by taking tons of pix and 4K video (not likely) I could easily off-load them to OTG.
You must have some kind of problems because I just tried and I can actually execute files (music, video, apk the ones I tired) from the external USB drive without having to copy them in the internal storage.
Both using the integrated Android default file manager and Solid Explorer (with no OTG-plugin).
Good to hear Matt!
Which OTG drive are you using? Maybe it's a pin-out problem on my particular drive.
No problems for me either. I'm using a Kingston 64GB DataTraveler microDuo 3C (with both USB C and USB A). I can confirm I can access its file directory with Solid Explorer and can play music stored on it with PowerAmp.
As far as I remember when I first connected it, I first tried to access it with Solid Explorer. I was initially directed to the Pixel's stock file explorer and had to make a selection there. After that the drive was fully accessible with Solid. Since then Solid and PowerAmp can access the OTG drive as soon as it's connected and I haven't been prompted to do anything in the stock file manager since.
However I'd like to add that I've since found an OTG drive isn't the same as having an SD card slot. I originally hoped that I could relocate all my music files to the external drive to keep lots of space free on the Pixel (32GB version). Although that is possible, PowerAmp takes about 7 minutes to scan and build its music library (6,000+ HE-AACv2 tunes) whenever I connect the OTG drive, so it's not exactly a fast and seamless alternative to keeping music in internal storage. The drive also gets quite hot when it's being accessed, and I'm not sure if it consumes a lot of power to run.
billykxda said:
After some investigation, it appears that having an app access, or play, a file on an OTG drive since Android 6.0 has been a non-starter. Security and permissions in the OS seem to be at the root of it (no pun). Getting 6.0+ devices to see and execute files on an OTG drive - beyond the capability provided by the native file browser - seems to need root and/or other interventions that don't seem worth the effort for me.
If anyone else knows different, please let me know.
For me, having an OTG drive handy has value as I can easily copy files to internal memory in a snap when on-the-go, and simply play them from there with the app of my choice. Alternatively, if I were to push my Pixel to capacity by taking tons of pix and 4K video (not likely) I could easily off-load them to OTG.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
billykxda said:
My Pixel XL sees my OTG drive just fine from within the native file explorer - the one that comes up when you first plug the drive in. But curiously, Astro File Manager can't find the drive, either can PowerAmp. They only see internal storage.
I am careful to select "File Transfer" when the drive is first plugged in, so it doesn't think the drive is a power source.
Any ideas why the drive can't be seen via other means other than the native file explorer?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exact same problem for me. I only have 32 XL and would love to use OTG drive, but only system file browser sees it.
You sure its not because you are trying to read exFAT? Pixel cant see exFAT.
Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
Related
Has anybody been able to get USB Mass Storage working ?
There are no devices that use mass storage anymore since like 4.1.2. Everything has switched to MTP. This is everywhere on the internet and id bet on XDA.
Sent from my GT-N5110 using XDA Premium HD app
trialsrider1 said:
There are no devices that use mass storage anymore since like 4.1.2. Everything has switched to MTP. This is everywhere on the internet and id bet on XDA.
Sent from my GT-N5110 using XDA Premium HD app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, my Galaxy S2 has Android 4.1.2 and both USB mass storage and MTP
Sent from Galaxy Note 8.0 GT–N5100
I use one of these http://www.2leef.com/store/product/bridge/
Works fine on The Galaxy note 8 and Galaxy note 3 with Astro File Manager.
stevejau said:
I use one of these http://www.2leef.com/store/product/bridge/
Works fine on The Galaxy note 8 and Galaxy note 3 with Astro File Manager.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It seems to be just an usb pen with 2 connectors
Sent from Galaxy Note 8.0 GT–N5100
I've found the USB Mass Storage handy for specific items and recently I was trying to recover some files (Via Android Restore program) that only worked if there was a USB Storage option, MTP wouldn't work. I have tried some apps on the app store, but none of them work to activate USB Storage. Was hoping their was a work around
gabripranzo said:
It seems to be just an usb pen with 2 connectors
Sent from Galaxy Note 8.0 GT–N5100
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep, that is all it is..and as i said it works fine with Astro File manager..I have not tried it with Root Explorer or any other file manager as yet, but Astro does the job well.
Their website does say it is compatible with Galaxy note 2 amongst others and I can vouch that it works great with Galaxy Note 8 and Note 3.
Cheers
Steve
USB
Maybe I'm missing something here.
My USB 128GB stick works fine with my OTG cable.
I've just ordered a micro USB reader for micro SD cards from meenova.
Will let you know how it works when it arrives.
Shofar1 said:
Maybe I'm missing something here.
My USB 128GB stick works fine with my OTG cable.
I've just ordered a micro USB reader for micro SD cards from meenova.
Will let you know how it works when it arrives.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
We're talking about connecting an android device using mass storage and not MTP protocol. USB otg has nothing to do with this.
Inviato dal mio GT-I9100 utilizzando Tapatalk
gabripranzo said:
We're talking about connecting an android device using mass storage and not MTP protocol. USB otg has nothing to do with this.
Inviato dal mio GT-I9100 utilizzando Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not sure how connecting a pendrive (otg or not, and btw it is very likely that the the microusb port on the pen-drive is also otg ) does not violate the above the same. When the note 8 acting as a Usb mass Storage Media is the main concern.
now back to topic,
Like it or not of companies have decided to do away with UMS. It basically boils down to architecture issues with their future plans.
UMS Gives exclusive access to the HOST (your computer or what ever you connect your device as Media to) and thus android/phone has to unmount the volume to prevent any locks or other potential issues (which are many including security).
Also the Host (your computer) has to be able to read/write the Files System format that you phone/ sd card is formatted to. (it's a dependency, because if the tablet where to use/ invent some new native file system, a lot of existing hosts might not be able to read them at all.
There are other reasons too like singular large ultra fast storage blocks to act as file systems as well RAM which can break if requiring unmounting,
Now MTP is not god send either and has it's own set of issues (read below)
however it's evolving.
with MTP most of the control is with your tablet or phone. and data is not written to the media directly by the host in for form for Blocks, but rather as files etc and thus the slowness as speed also depends a lot on your device not to mention it's biggest drawback that it's sequential/synchronous.
Personally, If i need to do large transfers etc, I just remove my microsd card in put that it into a tiny card reader, not ideal but works.
It is very unlikely that we are going to be getting UMS officially from those who are done with the standard on similar devices, . Maybe some better alternative in future than MTP, but who knows.
Here is little extract from the wiki : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Transfer_Protocol
for who care about the how's and the why's
History
The main purpose of this protocol is to allow only the transfer of media files and associated metadata to and from portable devices, one transfer function, in or out, at a time. Productivity functions such as open, edit and modify require copying to the hosting system for these functions then copied back in their entirety to change the data.
The protocol was originally implemented for use across USB but extended for use across TCP/IP and Bluetooth. Windows Vista supports MTP over TCP/IP. Windows 7 and Windows Vista with the Platform Update for Windows Vista also support MTP over Bluetooth.[7] The host connecting to an MTP device is called an MTP Initiator whereas the device itself is an MTP Responder.[8]
A main reason for using MTP rather than, for example, the USB mass-storage device class (MSC) is that the latter operates at the granularity of a mass storage device block (usually in practice, a FAT block), rather than at the logical file level. In other words, the USB mass storage class is designed to give a host computer undifferentiated access to bulk mass storage, such as compact flash, rather than to a file system, which might be safely shared with the target device (except for specific files which the host might be modifying/accessing). In practice, therefore, when a USB host computer has mounted an MSC partition, it assumes absolute control of the storage, which then may not be safely modified by the device without risk of data corruption until the host computer has severed the connection. Furthermore, because the host computer has full control over the connected storage device, there is a risk that the host computer may corrupt the file system, reformat it to a file system not supported by the USB device, or otherwise modify it in such a way that the USB device cannot completely understand it.
MTP and PTP specifically overcome this issue by making the unit of managed storage a local file rather than an entire (possibly very large) unit of mass storage at the block level. In this way, MTP works like a transactional file system - either the entire file is written/read or nothing. The storage media is not affected by failed transfers.
In case the device maintains a database/index of the content of the disk, MTP saves the cost of re-scanning the entire disk every time the content is modified.
Additionally, the MTP allows MTP Initiators to identify the specific capabilities of device(s) with respect to file formats and functionality. In particular, MTP Initiators may have to provide passwords and other information to unlock files, or otherwise enable digital rights management. Nothing specific of this nature is in the core standard but the features are available via vendor extensions. MTPZ, the Zune Extension to MTP specifically denies access to files until authentication has been processed, which is only possible using Windows Media Player 10 or higher.
Drawbacks
No multitasking - Unlike USB mass storage, MTP has been built to only allow a single function at a time, e.g. read, write, delete, with no other function available until the first function is complete.
By design, MTP devices (like PTP devices) are not treated as a traditional removable drive. The actual file system is implemented by the device, not by the computer's operating system. In theory the operating system may hide this difference, but this is not the case on Windows or Mac OS.[clarification needed] This also means that file system recovery tools on the computer will be of no use if the drive is corrupted, or crashes.
As of 2013, MTP is much less widely-supported than USB Mass Storage (see support section).
The MTP and PTP standards do not support direct modification of objects. Modified objects must be copied out of the device and reuploaded in their entirety, which can take a long time for large objects.
Google's MTP implementation in Android includes extensions to deal with this limitation.[9][10]
Windows/PC MTP implementation:
When opening a file, the user must wait till the file has copied to the PC before it can be viewed. (Note: The file remains on the PC hard drive after viewing and the device is removed)
No creation of files on the device from the PC, files must be created on the PC and copied over.
No editing of files on the device, files must be copied off the device before edits can be saved and file copied back.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As a workaround, for PC users at least, there is a Total Commander plugin which displays the MTP folders in normal file panel. It does not provide all the UMS features, like say binary directory sync (lack of which is one of my biggest griefs with MTP), but it's useful for simple file operations (browsing, copying etc.)
If anyone's interested I'll try to find the link/instructions.
Sent from my GT-N5100 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
Sorry.. Wrong thread
trialsrider1 said:
There are no devices that use mass storage anymore since like 4.1.2. Everything has switched to MTP. This is everywhere on the internet and id bet on XDA.
Sent from my GT-N5110 using XDA Premium HD app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And I can tell you, my brother is SERIOUSLY pissed. He's all ready to go smack around a few people at Google for this (once he's done smacking a LOT of people at Microsoft, now that his new machine is saddled with MSWin8).
In truth, it seems very arrogant on Google's part to presume that no one would want/need to use USB storage mode. My brother would like to edit files on the Note8 while it's attached to teh computer (using LibreOffice on the computer to edit it), and he feels it's absolutely preposterous that he has to copy the file down, edit it, then copy it back up. Google, 1985 wants it's broken methodology back.
Drive Droid
Pda23 said:
Has anybody been able to get USB Mass Storage working ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
DriveDroid on the play store at least.
I haven't yet had a reason to check if the Note will work, but does work on a Galaxy3 with Cyanogenmod. It goes and mangles the drivers to support the depreciated mass-storage proto. Expect it to be hit-and-miss when changing roms, requires root, requires kernel to no have completely disabled the old drivers. I now carry a recovery cdrom on my phone, it's worked most of the time.
Hello,
I have got a nexus 5x and would like to install apps on a flash drive so that i can get extra space. Is there a way to do that?
No way. U can save some space by using otg drive. And moving ur Media to external drive.
I'm assuming you're considering this for games and whatnot. I'm sure that, with root, this is possible. How exactly? Not sure.
As per my knowledge it wont possible. Will try once i receive my otg adapter in couple days. Only chance is have to check whether play store will show the otg drive in default install locations path. Or using some app to move to apk data folder to otg drive ( like we did on old low end devices like htc explore).
would like to use nexus 7 2013 with my Line 6 Amplifi Amp Remote App, (larger screen easier to navigate etc.) without rooting
unfortunately the remote app for the amp does not see the music files i wish to access as part of my "Music Library" because they are on an otg usb stick. (it only sees the internal storage)
i have tried several different apps to bridge this but i'm either doing it wrong or it may just not be possible
you can symlink the folder you need to access to a link on the internal storage.
Has anyone else tried using the included USB-C to A adapter to mount a flash drive? The phone recognizes it fine, but seems to only be able to read FAT32 formatting. I have other Android devices that can read exFAT just fine via an OTG cable. One of the reasons I was ok with getting the Pixel XL which doesn't have a MicroSD slot is that I assumed I would be able to hook up a flash drive if I wanted to watch some larger video files. I often have video files that exceed the file size limit of FAT32, so that format is not really an option.
I didn't realize the USB-C to USB-A connector was USB OTG. Thanks.
I tried a thumb drive first formatted to FAT32. It worked fine and I could access the files on it. Then I reformatted the thumb drive to exFAT, copied some files over to it, and then tried it. Nope. I remembered that I bought a file explorer for my N5 (it wouldn't mount the thumb drive) to allow USB OTG without root. So searched through my apps and found it....... USB Media Explorer https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.homeysoft.nexususb.importer&hl=en It is a paid app. It advertises FAT/FAT32, NTFS or Ext2/3/4, but it did work with exFAT. The interface wasn't the most intuitive. I went to folders and saw the music there. It was easy to play the music on the thumb drive. It took a little bit to figure out how to copy a song to the Pixel memory (have to select the song and then a copy looking icon pops up). I haven't figured out how to copy a complete folder yet although it must be possible. There were a few other apps on the Play Store that looked similar. I only tried this one since I had previously purchased it.
mtucker said:
I didn't realize the USB-C to USB-A connector was USB OTG. Thanks.
I tried a thumb drive first formatted to FAT32. It worked fine and I could access the files on it. Then I reformatted the thumb drive to exFAT, copied some files over to it, and then tried it. Nope. I remembered that I bought a file explorer for my N5 (it wouldn't mount the thumb drive) to allow USB OTG without root. So searched through my apps and found it....... USB Media Explorer https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.homeysoft.nexususb.importer&hl=en It is a paid app. It advertises FAT/FAT32, NTFS or Ext2/3/4, but it did work with exFAT. The interface wasn't the most intuitive. I went to folders and saw the music there. It was easy to play the music on the thumb drive. It took a little bit to figure out how to copy a song to the Pixel memory (have to select the song and then a copy looking icon pops up). I haven't figured out how to copy a complete folder yet although it must be possible. There were a few other apps on the Play Store that looked similar. I only tried this one since I had previously purchased it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks, that app did work to be able to view the files on exfat formatted USB drive. For some reason playback of a video file is really slow (buffers a LOT) if playing directly from the drive. A bit odd, since copying a file to the phones internal storage didn't take too long, about a minute for a 500 Mb file. Not anywhere near USB 3 "normal" speeds, but not terrible. I found one other app on the play store that was also able to read the USB drive, but had the same performance. I will test formatted as FAT32 later and see if there is a difference.
This non-supporting of exFAT clearly shows Google is tying to push us to store everything about us on the Google Drive so that they can monitor everything about us... Is your thumb drive usb3 compatible? If so and you're not getting the 'normal' speeds, that's another sign. We better watch out. They will eventually force us to use their proprietary app like iTunes to transfer files between Pixels and PCs.
Seriously, though, I need a way to quickly sync my photos and videos from my DLSR.
mrhds said:
Thanks, that app did work to be able to view the files on exfat formatted USB drive. For some reason playback of a video file is really slow (buffers a LOT) if playing directly from the drive. A bit odd, since copying a file to the phones internal storage didn't take too long, about a minute for a 500 Mb file. Not anywhere near USB 3 "normal" speeds, but not terrible. I found one other app on the play store that was also able to read the USB drive, but had the same performance. I will test formatted as FAT32 later and see if there is a difference.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually a minute for a 500MB file IS a lot.
Which USB pen drive is it?
matteventu said:
Actually a minute for a 500MB file IS a lot.
Which USB pen drive is it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed.
My tests showed a similar result with Kingston 64GB Data Traveler Micro Duo as well as Sandisk Ultra 64GB using FAT32, exFAT, and NTFS. For comparison, my Nexus 6P transferred the same file approximately twice as fast.
I was a little disappointed by the lack of native support for formats other than FAT32 and this issue makes the file-size workaround less than desirable. Otherwise, my pixel xl seems to perform as expected.
pp
Struggling with this as well, I foolishly bought the 32GB Pixel XL and constantly run out of space so for large file storage I bought a 64GB Sandisk usb drive (3.0, one of those tiny thumbnail sized dongles) and it works but the transfer speed is maxing out at 2mb/s! It takes around 30 minutes to transfer a 2GB file; I manage but it's pretty unacceptable for a 3.0 device (using the Google provided C to A) and it drains the battery like mad!
Any more thoughts on this? I'm struggling to find an answer (read: fix).
Thanks friends,
voice.lex said:
Struggling with this as well, I foolishly bought the 32GB Pixel XL and constantly run out of space so for large file storage I bought a 64GB Sandisk usb drive (3.0, one of those tiny thumbnail sized dongles) and it works but the transfer speed is maxing out at 2mb/s! It takes around 30 minutes to transfer a 2GB file; I manage but it's pretty unacceptable for a 3.0 device (using the Google provided C to A) and it drains the battery like mad!
Any more thoughts on this? I'm struggling to find an answer (read: fix).
Thanks friends,
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I did some more testing now that Google has had a year of software updates. Unfortunately, even on 8.1 December update, it seems FAT32 is still the only supported format, and the speeds are just as slow. I could only get about 15 Mb/sec. Thats using a high end aftermarket USB-C -> A adapter, and a 128 GB Sandisk USB 3 memory stick. This same adapter and memory stick can transfer well above 150 Mb/sec on a PC.
exFAT is a proprietary file system created and owned by Microsoft. Google did not pay Microsoft for the use of it on Pixel phones.
So exFAT can technically work if you Install Solid Explorer (free trial then $2 lifetime fee InApp Purchase, in my opinion well worth it as it's Solid) and their Solid Explorer USB OTG Plugin. Full Read/Write access for Fat32 and exFAT, NTFS Read only support. I actually loaded up my 64 GB Sandisk Extreme Flash Drive (exFAT formatted from Windows 10 pc), and took it on a trip with me to Disney World, so I could load movies and unload pictures of the family. I do have a 128GB Pixel XL, however I have a huge music collection I prefer offline, and ironically a lot of DayDream VR Experiences (it is space-consuming for offline copies such as Discovery VR etc, so those add up a Lot, but it does make for best experience as it is very heavy bandwidth dependent over wifi).
The USB 3.0 in my opinion doesn't exist for OTG, or at least with this adapter, I do have another adapter I think I'll try in a moment. However what I want to say is this flash Reads up to 245 MB/s and Writes at up to 190 MB/s, I usually average 100 - 200 on my pc. On this flash drive, just copying a file to phone from flash drive over exFAT apparently is limited to 0.5 MB/s. In other words it's going to take nearly 2 hours to copy over a 2.5 Gb file. It can still copy over with screen off, but I was thought it was ridiculous how much battery would be consumed and kept thinking if issue was UFS storage or drivers. I am on Android 8.0 November, will update to 8.1 clean install this week when February 2018 comes out. This actually did cause an issue for me using the original usb c to a cable on my pc, where it doesn't work and I have to use a specific usb c to a (2.0 version), which is still much faster than this. That issue though is because I 'dirty flashed' 8.0 over 7.1.2 without wiping. Only bug so far from that.
Not sure if the app was updated to support it or if Android 8.1 now supports it natively, but I'm able to access a flash drive via my phone using the adapter and File Manager by "Flashlight + Clock".
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.alphainventor.filemanager
Cheers!
Are you sure? I just tried it and it told me it doesn't support exFAT
Hi could anyone give a clear answer about use of OTG with Google Pixel XL: I read all about Google not supporting the exFAT format (someone said because they wouldn't pay Microsoft to license the tech), and that Pixel users are stuck with super slow transfer speeds, and file limitation sizes of FAT32. Someone else mentioned somewhere about Host Mode, and I'm finding it way harder than seems logical to get some definitive answer: If I can't get fast OTG transfer speeds with the Pixel, then I have to pass on its high quality camera and go with an inferior phone that has microUSB.
Can someone help me out with this please? Thank you much.
mrhds said:
Has anyone else tried using the included USB-C to A adapter to mount a flash drive? The phone recognizes it fine, but seems to only be able to read FAT32 formatting. I have other Android devices that can read exFAT just fine via an OTG cable. One of the reasons I was ok with getting the Pixel XL which doesn't have a MicroSD slot is that I assumed I would be able to hook up a flash drive if I wanted to watch some larger video files. I often have video files that exceed the file size limit of FAT32, so that format is not really an option.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Try JS USB OTG app. I use this to play big video files with MxPlayer in SW mode, without rooting and the app doesn't seem to stream video like other apps, you can go back or forward without any problems.
it always seems when there is any issue and someone ""tried"" an app and blah blah .. its always an app that needs to be PAID TO USE !!!! crack me up just makes me want to find the paid ""free"" version through a google search
Am I the only one experiencing issues with USB connection and file transfers? I'm having a very hard time using my sync tools to automate transfer of entire internal shared storage. Windows sometimes shows two internal storages. Sometimes if i copy the entire internal storage over, it will only do a few files and then crash or stop. My automated tool for syncing directories can't even access it reliably. It reads the contents and then just hangs or crashes. I can copy files over manually no problem, but sometimes if I copy bulk folders over it will crash or have some kind of issues and I have to do it again. I feel you have to manually navigate inside the internal shared storage to really get it to work, like windows can't really dig deep into the filesystem on its own.
God I miss TWRP
But what is with the usb mounted storage?
I haven't had any troubles with accessing my Pixel 6 Pro from Windows unless I accidentally hit the cable the wrong way, but then once I fix it, it works reliably for me again until/if I have another accident.
Are you using the cable that came with the phone?Is this a laptop or desktop?If a desktop, are you using a USB-C connector on the outside (top, front, or side) of your computer, or are you using a USB-C port that's directly on the back of your computer?Do you have a spare cable you can try, even if it's a different type (USB-A instead of USB-C, etc) - as long as it supports USB 3.x Gen 1 (5 Gb/s) at a minimum.Do you have access to a spare computer to test if you have the same problem with it?
Also, I don't use Windows Explorer at all. I find file transfers of any type work much better through GPSoftware Directory Opus (I have nothing to gain advertising them - I've been using Directory Opus for 30 years, so I'm very experienced with it).
There may be other Windows file managers that also work better, or there is even TeraCopy although I haven't touched that in years.
Good luck, I hope you get it working better for you. Let us know either way.
I use DOPus also!
Man, I have tried all the usb slots. The one directly on the motherboard and otherwise. If I use DOpus, if i try to copy the internal shared storage folder as a whole, it crashes part way through. But I was able to succeed if I used DOpus' synchronize tool, which digs into the directories before copying. I don't know why, but that helps. That is what I'm saying. It seems windows needs help digging into the folders before it can do anything with it.
I have also tried multiple cables including the white one that came with it. No big difference.
Cool that you're a DOpus fan too!
Is there any chance you can have temporary access to another computer to try with it? If necessary, you could try a computer at the library just for testing purposes.
Back when I used CodeSector TeraCopy, it had a way of more easily integrating with DOpus, specifically, if you end up trying TeraCopy and see if it helps.
Also, is this Windows 10 or 11? (I'm on 10)