Hi,
Please resolve my basic queries in regards of Windows Phone:
Like Rooting in android and Jailbreak in iOS, is there anything in Windows Phone as well?
Android apps are .apk. Like this, what about Windows phone apps?
In case of android, some of users install apk from different sources (apart from Play Store). Can it be done in Windows phone as well?
In comparison to android phone, how Windows phones are secure?
Can we install .exe file in Windows Phone? and
In comparison of Android, why should we consider windows phone?
Regards
GNS
Google search engine is your only friend.
1. There are a handful of devices that can be rooted at this time. Some of them have custom ROMs available to them as well.
2. Windows Phone apps are .xap (old filetype), .appx (current filetype), and .appxbundle (package of .appx and other required files).
3. Yes, apps can be sideloaded from the computer, installed via Device Portal over the internet, and some are directly installable by executing them.
4. Windows Phone is currently the most secure mobile OS.
5. Maybe?
6. It's a personal choice if you use it or not. Each OS has it's pros and it's cons. You can get one pretty cheap, around $30-50. If your intrigued, buy one and play with it.
1- Developer unlocking (allows amateur apps, very easy to do) and interop unlocking (allows breaking the sandbox -hence "interoperation"-, mostly unrestricted editing of system files, comparable to root, is done via an exploit in the OS)
2- .xap, .appx, .appxbundle
3- Some applications can be installed by simply opening their file on the device, some (mainly WP8 .xap) are installed with an application deployment tool (requiring a PC). But generally speaking the practice of manually distributing apps is not very popular.
4- Both OSes have exploits, and both are updated. Windows Phone/Mobile has an advantage in practice, but only because most devices are 1st party and Nokia/Microsoft have great lifetime cycles on their products.
5- No, at least not computer programs (apps still contain a .exe binary, but most power users never touch or even see them directly)
6- It's all a personal opinion I like the fact 99% of apps support external storage out of the box, the clean UI, and the app gap isn't a big deal as everything I need to do is covered!
I'm a relative beginner too so some of the above may not be exact...
I'm going to assume you're asking primarily about Windows 10 Mobile (W10M), not the legacy Windows Phone (WP7.x and WP8.x) OS family. Although the underlying OS is very similar between WP8.x and W10M, the answers to some of your questions change.
Yes, all W10M devices can now be jailbroken/rooted (we don't have a single term for it right now; if you say "rooted" people will know what you mean). On W10M, there are two critical elements to rooting a phone: the ability to run unsigned (or at least non-MS-signed) code outside an app sandbox, and a way to launch an application with high privileges. We can now do that for all W10M devices, including WP8.x devices upgraded to W10M.
As others have said, the extensions are .xap (Silverlight / XNA apps, used for WP7.x and some WP8.x apps, still supported on W10M), .appx (WinRT, used for W10M and some WP8.1. Used for "Universal" Windows [Phone] 8.1 and Windows 10 [Mobile] apps, such as W10's "Universal Windows Platform"), and .appxbundle (just a collection of .appx files and their various resources / requirements). As with .APK files, they are just ZIP archives and can be opened by 7-Zip or anything else that knows the format (unless they are DRM-encrypted, which ones from the Store often are).
Yes, W10M supports sideloading. It's actually easier to enable on W10M than it is on Android (it's an easily-found option in Settings). By default you're limited to 20 sideloaded apps at once, but there are ways to bypass that.
Against external attacks, W10M is extremely secure. There have been no easily-exploited vulnerabilities (like Stagefright for Android), so far as I know. The app store is also better curated that the Play Store, and you can fully control the privacy settings of individual apps. Also, unlike with Android, Windows phones continue getting updates long after release, especially if you use the free preview / Insider programs to get your updates before your OEM or mobile operator bother to approve them (which sometimes never happens, both on Android and Windows, but on Android the only way around that is to go with a custom ROM; on W10M Microsoft makes it possible to still get updates).
Very much depends what you mean. In one sense, yes, of course; all W10M executables (both system and app) are EXE files (.XAP files may contain only a DLL that is loaded by a system EXE; newer apps include their own EXE). EXEs intended for desktop PCs generally won't run, though, because they use the x86 or x64 instruction sets, and the phone uses the ARM (actually THUMB2) instruction set. These are completely different "languages", and ARM CPUs cannot understand x86 machine code without an extremely slow interpreter in the middle. Additionally, the phone does not support the "Windows desktop" user interface at all, so you can't run any graphical programs (except "immersive"/"Metro-style"/WinRT/whatever-they-re-calling-it-this-week) ones. Command-line interface programs can be run (if they're compiled for ARM processors, and the phone is jailbroken) but there's not (yet) any translation layer for running x86 apps, even command-line ones, on the phone.
A more consistent UI across phones. Better control over when apps run and what they do (which often gives better battery life). Much better update support, even for "unsupported" phones. Pretty good performance even on really low-end phones; a cheap Windows phone will run much better than a cheap Android phone. Better security. Higher-end Lumias have some of the best cameras ever put in phones. Continuum for Phones (connect to a real monitor, and optionally USB keyboard and/or mouse, and run apps on a bigger screen). Easy access to pre-release builds, if you like trying out the bleeding edge features and such. Integration with all the Microsoft services (Exchange and Office365, Skype, OneDrive, etc.), although you can still use Google mail/calendar/etc. Tap-to-pay with high-end Lumias. Many apps can be used on both PC and mobile Win10 but you only need to pay once. Easy to re-flash your phone if something goes catastrophically wrong (commonly called "soft bricked", i.e. you can't even factory reset anymore), although they don't get into that state any more often than Android phones. Specs-for-specs, Windows phones are often cheaper than Android ones. Doesn't send a bunch of personal info to Google (of course, maybe you don't trust Microsoft any better, but at least their primary business isn't advertising).
... there are lots of reasons, just as there are lots of reasons to prefer iOS, or to prefer Android. Without more info about what you find important in a phone, it's hard to guess what stuff you'd care about.
Related
So, with WP7, we lose all support for the .cab and associated API as it exists now. Replacing it is the .xab format.
What's a .xap?
A .xap is a simple, every day .zip file, renamed to .xap. Inside, it contains the app and all relevant dependencies. There are a number of possible .xml files that could be included inside the .xap to determine things like required security access level, to tell the system which .dll contains the main() for the application, etc.
I believe the .zip also provides a container for the virtual filesystem available to the app (not sure on that, it may be stored in a separate container, have to analyze more)
At least initially, .xaps will only be available for deployment through the Marketplace.
Regarding preloaded applications by OEM/MO: Requirements are much more strict in this regard now due to frequent end-user complaints about "slow, laggy, etc" Stock ROMs. I know every one of you reading this knows what I mean Preloaded App Requirements (which will be distributed as .xap) as follows:
Maximum of 6 preloaded applications on the device, not to exceed 60MB
All preloaded apps must pass Marketplace submission process (some extended APIs are available to OEM/MO so the process is slightly relaxed in that regard)
The application(s) and all future updates must be free of charge.
The apps must launch without dependency on network availability.
The apps must persist through a "hard reset".
The apps must be updatable and revocable (!!!!) through the Marketplace.
The apps must notify the user at first launch of any capabilities to be utilized and get user consent (to access compass, accelerometer, network, etc.)
I've attached a .xap to this post for your examination. It's renamed to .zip for the attachment system to allow it.
Hehe.. this reminds of the "widgets" for Vista and 7 or the "apk"s for Android. Same stuff it sounds like Thanks for the info master Da_G
Does this mean .cab.pkgs are being changed too?
The .cab.pkg format remains intact for imageupdate (actually I haven't examined it in depth just yet, but all indications are that they have not changed .cab.pkg format)
Bump for visibility
Interesting...Wonder if there will be a process to convert some cabs to xabs.
Highly unlikely. xab's are silverlight applications meaning you have to use xaml , c# code and libabries all in one small zipped file. Cab's are Cabinent files that has an inf file that specifes what libabries and files are going to be enclosed in the file. To put it simply a xab is a standalone application that does not require extraction or installation to run and a cab is an application which requires an extraction and for its contents to be placed in specific areas in order for the dependents to find and use them.
Also to clarify. Local storage for xab's are not defined or stored in the xab file. they are defined by the silverlight runtimes which is handled by the os. As of now since there is little information as to how the windows phone internal structure is (apart from us knowing that windows phone will utilised microsoft unified storage.). on windows 7 and windws vista after u install the silverliht runtimes all xab's that request local storage is stored in <SYSTEMDRIVE>\Users\<user>\AppData\LocalLow\Microsoft\Silverlight\is .. Just note silverlight local storage works just like flash local storage. the only exception so far for windows phone is that u will not be able to access a lot of local directories just predefined stuff like music, pictures and documents.
Just before people get into bad habits; they are xap, not xab files. No relationship to cabs whatsoever save as a container format.
Da_G said:
Regarding preloaded applications by OEM/MO: Requirements are much more strict in this regard now due to frequent end-user complaints about "slow, laggy, etc" Stock ROMs. I know every one of you reading this knows what I mean Preloaded App Requirements (which will be distributed as .xap) as follows:
[*]Maximum of 6 preloaded applications on the device, not to exceed 60MB
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That is just brain damaged. Pre-loaded apps add clutter, but they also cut down on cost. Choose your poison. Pre-loading has little to do with with speed penalties, when done properly. Frankly, if roms have the same ancient architecture under WM7, then Microsoft really needs some technical leadership replaced.
[*]All preloaded apps must pass Marketplace submission process (some extended APIs are available to OEM/MO so the process is slightly relaxed in that regard)
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Now this is where some quality review comes in. It all depends on how good the standards are, and I dare say they will seem lower and lower as time passes. Hell, they're already admitting that OEMs will have relaxed standards.
[*]The application(s) and all future updates must be free of charge.
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That's just silly. You'll get a bunch of lite software versions with next to zero shelf life instead of upgradable versions with marginal shelf life.
[*]The apps must launch without dependency on network availability.
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what does this even mean? Does that mean no internet based app can be installed? All it really means is you have to quit gracefully if the network isn't available.
[*]The apps must persist through a "hard reset".
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This is a good thing, but primarily a reflection of back when flash memory was in short supply. Haven't run into it in forever.
[*]The apps must be updatable and revocable (!!!!) through the Marketplace.
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Well, updateable is good...but revocable? Maybe removable would be more consumer friendly. Makes me think of the PS3.
[*]The apps must notify the user at first launch of any capabilities to be utilized and get user consent (to access compass, accelerometer, network, etc.)
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What I take from all of this is that
a) they want to drive more traffic through the marketplace.
b) they want to drive more traffic through Windows Certification
Good for the average consumer, great for Microsoft. Personally, the only point that has any value to me at all is a central marketplace. The rest of the bullets are ways for Microsoft to drive seperation between their brand name and many software vendor's crappy products.
ahhhha , sound interesting .
gguruusa said:
That is just brain damaged. Pre-loaded apps add clutter, but they also cut down on cost. Choose your poison. Pre-loading has little to do with with speed penalties, when done properly. Frankly, if roms have the same ancient architecture under WM7, then Microsoft really needs some technical leadership replaced.
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I don't know, I wish MS enforced that same restriction on the Desktops OSes too. Nothing worse than getting a Dell or Sony PC full of preloaded gunk.
gguruusa said:
That's just silly. You'll get a bunch of lite software versions with next to zero shelf life instead of upgradable versions with marginal shelf life.
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It's a big leap to come to that conclusion seeing as most software that ships with phone doesn't have additional charges. The restriction as I read it really means you just won't get a tonne of unwanted trial-ware on you shiny new phone.
Eoinoc said:
I don't know, I wish MS enforced that same restriction on the Desktops OSes too. Nothing worse than getting a Dell or Sony PC full of preloaded gunk.
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maybe, but that same preloaded gunk cut the price of your dell and sony. While I don't like preloaded gunk, I don't like expense either. What I do like is being able to make the decision myself of how much gunk vs expense I am willing to tolerate.
It's a big leap to come to that conclusion seeing as most software that ships with phone doesn't have additional charges. The restriction as I read it really means you just won't get a tonne of unwanted trial-ware on you shiny new phone.
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I agree it is target at no trial-ware. Any idea how people in the business world get around that? Lite versions of software (aka cripple-ware). Pay per use software. I'm sure there are other strategies. Frankly, if they enforce the ability to remove, I'm not that particular on how much gets pre-loaded. The fact of the matter is that the problem isn't how much crap comes with your phone; it is that you don't get to pick whether it is installed.
great find Da_G, so its XAB no more cabs
the0ne said:
great find Da_G, so its XAB no more cabs
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XaB no.
XaP
tighoor said:
XaB no.
XaP
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oops ..
How bad this is for the guys that dev here?
or... how good?
guessing .xap is short for XNA Application Package ?
vladimir2989 said:
guessing .xap is short for XNA Application Package ?
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close, but no. In fact, it's actually a silverlight application package - it's been used for web stuff since silverlight released.
how to convert XAP to OEM/EXT package ?
I'm not sure what you mean by "OEM/EXT" package, but it's probably not possible. If you want to include an app with the phone, that *is* possible but the only way I know of is to include the XAPs in the ROM and then install them on first bootup. Probably not the best approach.
Erm sorry but can someone explain to me what's chevronwp7 in simple words? I know it's like a jail break or something and it can sideload apps or something. can someone explain to me these few things:
1) what's sideloading?
2) are there any risks involved using it?
3) does it allow me to download any apps from the marketplace or something? if not, what can I do with it?
sorry I'm kind of a noob about wp7. just asking this coz I was thinking of getting a new phone, either android or wp7. Thanks in advance!
This really belongs more in the Q&A forum, but...
Sideloading is the process of installing an application onto your phone directly from a PC, instead of using the marketplace. Apps for sideloading are packaged in ZIP files with the extension changed to XAP. They work almost exactly like marketplace apps (there are a few small differences).
In order to sideload applications, your phone needs to be developer-unlocked. There are multiple ways to do this. ChevronWP7 Unlocker, which only works on the first two versions on WP7 (not on any build 7389 or higher), is an unofficial technique, which some have referred to as jailbreaking. There are other techniques, such as registering for a marketplace developer account (or getting help from somebody who has registered), or using the forthcoming ChevronWP7 Labs (same guys, different project), or using the registry editor built into LG phones. That's all that dev-unlock is, incidentally - a registry edit. It is a perfectly normal change, nothing close to the level of lackery of jailbreaking in iPhone.
Technically, there are no risks to dev-unlocking your phone, although I suppose using some of the unofficial methods do carry risks if done incorrectly. However, there are definitely risks to sideloading applications. Sideloaded apps can make changes to your phone - in some cases, big changes, potentially including malware or making your phone not work - and they haven't gone through the verification process that Microsoft uses to keep harmful software out of the marketplace. In general, the apps published through XDA-Developers are reputable, but there is no guarantee. Even an app that is not intended to be harmful could mess something up by accident. I and some other developers post the source code to our apps, partially as a way of allowing people to check and ensure that our apps do only what they say they do.
Developer-unlocking does not allow you to install marketplace apps without paying for them. That's not at all what this forum is about, and asking about it is not a good idea - at best, you'll probably just get the thread locked. Please go elsewhere if you want to talk piracy.
What sideloading is useful for is installing apps that, for whatever reason, Microsoft doesn't allow in the marketplace. These apps range from small tweaks to the phone (adding a custom theme color or changing notification sounds, for example), to adding features that aren't officially available (things like Internet tethering for a PC), to opening up the phone's security completely and allowing you to do nearly whatever you want with it.
I hope that answers your questions. As to WP7 vs. Android, that really depends on what you want out of the phone. In either case, it's not a good topic of discussion for the development and hacking forum.
so in a way, chevronwp7 enables the phone be able to download third-party apps from the net? like how android can download .apk files?
Right now, ChevronWP7 Unlocker typically doesn't enable anything - it hasn't worked since the first versions of WP7, nearly a year ago. If you have a really old phone or flash a really old ROM, I guess you could still use it.
However, you're correct that developer-unlocking a phone (which is what ChevronWP7 Unlocker did) allows you to download third-party apps off the Internet (or develop them on your own PC) and install them to the phone using USB. Unless you're using a custom ROM, you can't install them straight to the phone; instead you use one of the many XAP deployment tools.
WP7 application packages are files with the .XAP extension (I believe it originally stood for "XNA Application Package). I believe they are similar to Android's .APK files, though I haven't actually cracked one of those open to look.
Rumors are flying that bluestacks will bring their newly touch-optimized app to RT, giving us access to Android Apps. Anyone else heard something similar?
Also, is there any equivalent we could get our hands on right now, like an open-source equivalent that could be ported? It seems ridiculous that to run native ARM apps on an ARM platform we need to port an ARM environment from x86 back to ARM again... there should be a simpler way. All pure speculation of course, but it seems like it should be possible. So, outside of a bluestacks port, how could Android apps be run on an RT device?
Install a Linux kernel and a Dalvik runtime... Seriously, do you realize how silly what you're asking for sounds?
"Why can't we run Linux apps on Windows? It's an x86 processor too..." (Note: Android is not all ARM.)
Stuff like Bluestacks is a huge, complicated project.
GoodDayToDie said:
Install a Linux kernel and a Dalvik runtime... Seriously, do you realize how silly what you're asking for sounds?
"Why can't we run Linux apps on Windows? It's an x86 processor too..." (Note: Android is not all ARM.)
Stuff like Bluestacks is a huge, complicated project.
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Seriously your a bore
rw6497 said:
Seriously your a bore
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He's not a bore, he's realistic. It's not his fault that people make outrageous requests all the time and expect them to be fulfilled. I find it quite irritating too, especially when people PM me and ask me again because it's been posted in a thread that it's not possible without an unreasonable amount of work (that we're not going to do on our spare time) and they don't like that answer.
You guys have to remember, we're doing this for free. We're not obligated to port every single program you guys throw at us. If you don't like that, learn how to port them yourselves.
I don't want to spawn an argument...
I'm not asking anything from anyone, I'm just curious about some rumors and inquisitive about possibilities. I'm not all "OMG! netham45! Can u plz make this run android!? And then iOS! And PlayStation games!" I respect netham45 a ton and think his work is amazing.
I'm just opening discussion here.
For comparison, consider the Wine project: well over a decade of development (much longer than Android has even existed) to have an open-source tool that can run many x86 Windows apps on x86 Linux. Or consider Cygwin, which can't even run x86 Linux apps on x86 Windows; they must be recompiled for Cygwin first. Expecting that some equivalent program to run ARM Dalvik/Linux apps on ARM Windows would have just popped out of the woodwork in a usable state - even as usable as Wine, which is nowhere near 100% app compatibility yet - is quite unrealistic.
jtg007 said:
It seems ridiculous that to run native ARM apps on an ARM platform we need to port an ARM environment from x86 back to ARM again...
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Bluestacks involves ZERO emulation of ARM. Android apps are run inside the dalvik virtual machine (itself a register based version of the java virtual machine). To run an android app just needs a DVM and its class library: bluestacks pretty much does this. Android native code apps do then get complicated yes but then the android NDK has a rather convenient feature that bluestacks can exploit.
NDK compiles native binaries for both x86 and ARMv7 by default (note default, you can over-ride which platforms it compiles for, I believe ARMv6, ARMv6hf, ARMv7, MIPS and x86_32 are available options although I am not 100% sure on the exact arm versions so might be wrong). Bluestacks is only running on x86 and x86_64 machines. x86_64 machines can safely run x86_32 code. So really bluestacks when it encounters a native app "just" has to run the x86 binary the NDK produces on windows/mac with a compatibility layer. Still a complex job of course.
Bluestacks on windows RT could actually take the same shortcut bluestacks on windows and OSX takes in regards to native code, just with the ARM binaries running in a compatibility layer instead of the x86 binaries.
Bluestacks still has to mess about a bit exposing hardware to "android" correctly and handling a few extra bits and pieces but generally it works rather well and in theory could work on windows RT. However in practise it might have some speed sacrifices which will become much more apparent seeming as the guts of most windows RT devices are also the guts of android devices, now you've introduced slowdowns and the RT device will be slower than if it just ran android in the first place, might not be an issue on some less intensive apps but something like shadowgun would probably have noticeable slowdowns. Also I doubt a company like that behind bluestacks wants to develop for jailbroken devices, microsoft certainly wouldnt give permission for something along the same lines to be included on the windows store. The other major issue is OpenGL ES. Non existant on windows RT, bluestacks I believe converts OpenGL ES calls to full OpenGL. We dont have that either. We have directX or software. In theory you could convert the OpenGL ES calls to directX, certainly not impossible, but would certainly be alot of work.
TL;DR. Its theoretically possible to have android apps running on windows RT. There are too many issues to make it viable at this moment in time.
Future updates to what microsoft does and doesn't allow on RT (OpenGLES I'm looking at you) and knowledge/hacks (GLES>DX?) gained as more people take a poke at it might help nudge a dalvik VM on RT in the right direction in future though.
I wonder how relevant this is
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2018...tility-to-run-android-apps-on-windows-rt.html
Interesting, but too early to call "relevant", I think. That article is over two months old; has anybody heard anything since? It's possible that the project is being worked on internally already and will be available soon, but don't count on it.
That said, we now have three ways to get software onto RT:
1. The Windows Store. Official, easy, and can be monetized, but requires Microsoft approval, must run in Metro, and restricts available APIs.
2. Sideloaded Metro app. Semi-official (no hacks needed) but requires going through the (fairly simple and free) process of equipping your device with a developer license. Still runs in Metro and the AppContainer sandbox, but you can somewhat ignore Microsoft's approval process and use any API that is reachable.
3. ARM-compiled desktop app. Requires a jailbroken device, which MS could later try to block, but for now it's easy. No API or sandbox restrictions, aside from the lack of certain features (like OpenGL) on RT.
I wonder which one Bluestacks would choose? #1 is the most beneficial to them, if they can do it, and if MS rejects it they could always go with #2 as a fallback. #3 is the easiest for them, most likely, but carries the most risk. There's also, of course, item #4: forget RT, and keep going with x86 Windows and OS X, where all the customers are.
I dont think they would actually have to go as far as option 3. ModernUI would probably be more than enough for bluestacks.
I wonder if microsoft would try and prevent bluestacks from the marketplace. I guess as far as they are concerned it might improve the image of their devices if they can run android apps too (minimizing costs of migration to RT from android for enterprise customers too, although it seems ipad's took off mostly in enterprise).
Full Article
http://justinangel.net/Win81APIs
Bluetooth 4.0 RfComm and GATT support
Point of sale: Barcode scanners and Magnetic card readers
Smart Cards
Lock screen Image Apps
VPN support for Metro apps
Scanner APIs and apps
Support for any External / USB device
Native PDF rendering in apps
Multiple screens projection support in apps
XAML/WinJS: New resolution scaling support / Super-high resolution tablets
Camera: Low-lag cameras / HDR
New Metro App Types: Appointments, LockScreen, Contacts and GeoLoc
New App Type: GeoFenced activation
New App Type: Lock screen call
New App Type: Appointments Provider
Text-to-speech
Read-write access to Camera roll, Saved pictures and playlists
XAML/WinJS: new SearchBox control
XAML/WinJS: Hubs for SemanticZoom
XAML: DatePicker and TimePicker
XAML: Flyout, MenuFlyout and SettingsMenuFlyout
XAML: AppBar simplification
XAML: DataBinding Improvements
Globalization: Currencies, Numeral systems and Numerical formatters
Other minor but important Win8.1 features
Be aware: these are new WinRT APIs, not Windows RT features. WinRT != Windows RT (I usually abbreviate the latter as "WRT" to avoid confusion and for similarity with things like WP8).
With that said, since WinRT is the only official API for developing WRT apps, and since Win8.0 and WRT_RTM support the same WinRT APIs, it's reasonable to assume that the same APIs are coming to WRT and therefore apps using these API features will be available on WRT devices.
Another interesting point is that WP8 uses WinRT as well (though only a subset of it). Hopefully at least some of these new APIs also become available on WP8.1; the obvious candidates are things like alarms and Bluetooth and such, though it'd be great to get *any* kind of VPN support in there...
"Support for any External / USB device"
Does that sound like unsigned (or testsigned, whatever) kernel mode code to anyone else?
Edit: Should probably read the thread closer, this is WinRT stuff.
It's not kernel mode. More accurate would be the ability to write (sandboxed, low-privilege) user-mode drivers using WinRT. That's still cool - it's the first official driver API of any kind, and from a security standpoint I'm way more comfortable about installing WWinRT apps than actual NT drivers - but it probably won't help with unlocks. It does mean you can talk directly* to USB devices, though, which is cool in many ways.
Given the ability to handle unrecognized devices, I'm guessing that apps will be able to register for specific USB IDs (in the same way that they can register for URI schemes and file extensions now) so that the app will auto-start when you connect a device, or so you can search the store for apps which can handle a specific device. This is big. The lack of third-party NT drivers for obscure hardware on RT has been an impediment (one of many) to progress on the platform. Asking people to write their own drivers is probably not going to fly for really complex hardware unless it's also quite popular, but I can see people doing things like writing an ADB app; there's no reason I know of why that needs to be a kernel driver.
* I'm assuming that the new WinRT APIs basically call into a generic NT driver that does the actual device IO. So, it's not literally directly talking to the device in the sense of sending bits down the USB port from your software, but it's still a lot closer to the metal than we could officially get before.
GoodDayToDie said:
* I'm assuming that the new WinRT APIs basically call into a generic NT driver that does the actual device IO. So, it's not literally directly talking to the device in the sense of sending bits down the USB port from your software, but it's still a lot closer to the metal than we could officially get before.
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Yes, it is probably just a Metro wrapper around the old well-known WinUSB API: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/ff540174(v=vs.85).aspx
And there is a strange question in the article:
Despite the plethora of new VPN APIs, an open question remains as to whether WinRT Win8.1 apps will work by default on VPNs.
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VPN works fine on RT. At least I can connect to our company VPN with the built-in client and access all our internal resources, for example Sharepoint from the Internet Explorer.
Confusion of "Windows RT" and "WinRT" again*. VPN works "fine" on Windows RT, or on Windows 8, for desktop apps. However, WinRT apps, on either Win8 or WRT, are known to have problems tunneling through VPNs. These new APIs will hopefully help with that, but the question remains whether WinRT (Metro) apps will work *by default* over a VPN, or not.
* I swear, the entire Microsoft branding department, or at least any of them who can't provide proof they didn't argue against this idiocy, need to be stood up against a wall, slapped in the face, by everybody who ever got those two mixed up, and then fired. Much like Windows Phone... at least the complete retard who came up with "Windows Phone 7 Series devices" got the boot, but the result was merely slightly less awful and it hasn't gotten better since.
Being able to write drivers in WinRT level sounds very interesting indeed. I wonder how much integration into the OS will those drivers have, especially, if they are to remain active even when the parent app is not running.
I just hope they bring the entire IO interface of .NET on WinRT. That way we would be able to write drivers from scratch if we really wanted to...
I just want to access to COM ports. Seriously that was a dumb decision on microsofts behalf to block it. Only security threat it poses Tcp also poses so that can't be the reason.
I guess with raw usb access you can try a custom driver to a usb adaptor.
I've been thinking of getting a tablet and I've been eyeing the Windows 8 tablets. Honestly, I like Android, but all of their tablets disappoint (I don't want a Nexus tablet or an iPad for that matter).
I keep hearing that RT marketplace is very small, that there are only "a few apps", etc. Is this true? I am not a heavy app user, plus I'll always have my phone (LG G2 btw, and it's amazing).
I use W8 on my desktop and I like it - but that's obviously the "full" version. I would also like to ask for a tablet recommendation (Nokia 2520 looks FANTASTIC by the way). I don't want to give more than $500 for a tablet, so then generally RT tablets come to mind. My only other requirement is at least a full HD screen. What would you suggest?
Deusdies said:
I've been thinking of getting a tablet and I've been eyeing the Windows 8 tablets. Honestly, I like Android, but all of their tablets disappoint (I don't want a Nexus tablet or an iPad for that matter).
I keep hearing that RT marketplace is very small, that there are only "a few apps", etc. Is this true? I am not a heavy app user, plus I'll always have my phone (LG G2 btw, and it's amazing).
I use W8 on my desktop and I like it - but that's obviously the "full" version. I would also like to ask for a tablet recommendation (Nokia 2520 looks FANTASTIC by the way). I don't want to give more than $500 for a tablet, so then generally RT tablets come to mind. My only other requirement is at least a full HD screen. What would you suggest?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well if its for your criteria of a full Desktop you are right - you can't do this with Windows RT, thus with no RT tablet. But as im using my Surface as a thin client, remoting my home pc or my server for all the stuff i can't do on my tablet it's quite wonderful. And the Windows Store has been incresing ever since, last week i reset me tablet and did some serious store browsing to get up to date with available apps and i probably couldn't find anthing that's not there - development environment and compilers excluded of course. But as far as i can see - not knowing your area of expertise - there is everything you would need to get a basic start, though some apps will cost a dollar/euro or two. Whatsmore, there is the 8.0 jailbreak, if you are willing not to go to 8.1 yet (don't know if the surface 2 gets delivered with 8.1 and you would need to downgrade) - in this case there are already a lot of ported desktop apps available.
Jailbreak and ported apps can be found here:
Jailbreak
Ported Desktop Apps
As for the Nokia 2520, it definitely looks good! Haven't actually seen this one come up, looks promising.
To sum it up: if what you like is the new Modern UI interface you can definitely go with an RT tablet for there are plenty of apps available. For the desktop that's a whole other story, as I've described (jailbreak/ported apps) - if you are willing to compromise, you will get another added benefit from this cool piece of hard- and software.
The decision which RT tablet to use should be yours i guess, there are quite a few out there, but in a matter of usability I deem them all to work the same.
Greetings,
Fasin
The app market you can check out on your full windows 8 machine no problem. I do personally think its a bit limited.
Windows RT is for all intents and purposes windows 8 running on ARM instead of x86 processors. This does bring a few limitations, and then microsoft impose 2 more.
ARM and x86 processors are rather obviously not compatible. x86 programs cannot run on ARM and vice versa normally (you could emulate an ARM CPU on x86 and vice versa but thats slow).
Most "metro" apps are compiled in both ARM and x86 versions. There are a few which are not for whatever reason. But most should be available in both stores. The vast majority of metro apps use C# or VB.net anyway which dont output native ARM or x86 machine code and instead use .NET bytecode (the .NET runtime is present on both windows 8 and windows RT). VLC is the only major exception I can think of right now, although that hasn't been publicly released yet and ARM is planned (right now its x86 only).
Just about all desktop software for windows is x86. It won't run on ARM. If its open source it may be portable however the only compiler capable of targetting Windows RT is MSVC whereas alot of software can only be built in alternative compilers. There is a list (already linked in the post above) of software which people have managed to recompile for Windows RT.
Then 2 microsoft imposed restrictions.
Drivers. Although windows tablets all have full USB host abilities, you do of course require drivers for all USB devices you want to use. Windows are not allowing 3rd party drivers on ARM, so if your USB device isn't listed on their compatibility chart it won't work. Mice, keyboards, USB storage, some printers and even the xbox 360 controller work.
Desktop requiring signed binaries. This is a major restriction which serves no purpose. All software run on windows RT must have a digital signature attached which will be checked before execution. If the signature is missing it won't run it. For store apps this isn't a problem as signing the app is part of the release process. However microsoft don't want us to use the desktop on windows RT devices, they havent released any way to add the signature to software running on the traditional desktop. MS Office, internet explorer and all the other software that runs in desktop mode and is preinstalled on RT has been signed because microsoft wrote it and have the tools to do so. We don't. There is a jailbreak which can remove this restriction and enable people to run desktop applications (either written in .NET or compiled for ARM) but it doesn't work on windows RT 8.1 which the lumia tablet and surface 2 have (they cannot be downgraded to 8.0). An 8.1 jailbreak is coming soon.
Whether the RT is suitable or not depends on your needs. If all your going to do is surf the web, well its full blown internet explorer 11 not some sucky mobile browser, it even has flash (but not java, which you should not confuse for javascript. However iOS and android dont have java either).
You get full RDP support in windows RT. So you can view the screen of and interact with your real windows 8 desktop remotely on the tablet. In the ported apps section for jailbroken devices there is also VNC which does the same thing but is cross platform unlike RDP which is supposed to just be windows (however there is an RDP server for linux too so if you have a linux machine, install the RDP server, remote access it on non jailbroken RT device no problem).
You get microsoft office. Its missing plugins and macros. But otherwise, its a full office suite. Its more than android or iOS have.
Being close enough to normal windows, you get a full file browser which supports network mapped drives and USB etc as you do on your desktop. Android can have file browsers, but they usually arent as good as a desktop file browser. iOS doesnt have a file browser at all.
With the file browser you have support for USB storage. Got some photos on a memory stick, plug it in, you can view them. iOS cannot do this. Some android phones can, some can't (your LG should be able to).
True there are not as many apps as iOS or android. But both iOS and android had low apps counts when they first released and according to what little public data there is, windows after 1 year is about on par with both android and iOS app counts after 1 year. It takes time (but will it take too long is a better question)
Thank you both very much. Very well thought out responses. I was debating between getting the Dell Venue 11 Pro (full Windows 8) or the Nokia 2520 being as that they're the same price, but I have honestly been convinced to get the RT version.
Fasin said:
Whatsmore, there is the 8.0 jailbreak, if you are willing not to go to 8.1 yet (don't know if the surface 2 gets delivered with 8.1 and you would need to downgrade) - in this case there are already a lot of ported desktop apps available.
Jailbreak and ported apps can be found here:
Jailbreak
Ported Desktop Apps
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh. My. Gott.
I had no idea that this even existed. I think this is pretty much what settles it - I'm definitely getting an RT. Notepad++? Python? 7-zip? Amazing! Vielen dank!
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Then 2 microsoft imposed restrictions.
Drivers. Although windows tablets all have full USB host abilities, you do of course require drivers for all USB devices you want to use. Windows are not allowing 3rd party drivers on ARM, so if your USB device isn't listed on their compatibility chart it won't work. Mice, keyboards, USB storage, some printers and even the xbox 360 controller work.
Desktop requiring signed binaries. This is a major restriction which serves no purpose. All software run on windows RT must have a digital signature attached which will be checked before execution. If the signature is missing it won't run it. For store apps this isn't a problem as signing the app is part of the release process. However microsoft don't want us to use the desktop on windows RT devices, they havent released any way to add the signature to software running on the traditional desktop. MS Office, internet explorer and all the other software that runs in desktop mode and is preinstalled on RT has been signed because microsoft wrote it and have the tools to do so. We don't. There is a jailbreak which can remove this restriction and enable people to run desktop applications (either written in .NET or compiled for ARM) but it doesn't work on windows RT 8.1 which the lumia tablet and surface 2 have (they cannot be downgraded to 8.0). An 8.1 jailbreak is coming soon.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're right, that truly is an odd restriction. Perhaps they just want people to use Windows Store more and more? But from this thread it seems that Jailbreak "fixes" a lot of issues - and I didn't even know this existed until now (admittedly I wasn't into the Windows 8 on mobile devices a whole lot until now).
Yep, I think my only pseudo-concern is now gone. Thank you again both, and Nokia 2520 - here I come!
Well, the jailbreak isnt out for 8.1 and is still more limited than the bay trail in the venue 11. But its one of those things that can only go uphill from here.
My personal choice would be the venue. But thats me, not you. I do a fair bit of programming and use alot of software that just plain isnt available on RT. And I think thats the point, different devices suit different people in different ways.
BestBuy will have Surface RT for $200 in Black Friday. I'd like to buy one since it is such cheap and I can play with some ARM Win32 programs.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Well, the jailbreak isnt out for 8.1 and is still more limited than the bay trail in the venue 11. But its one of those things that can only go uphill from here.
My personal choice would be the venue. But thats me, not you. I do a fair bit of programming and use alot of software that just plain isnt available on RT. And I think thats the point, different devices suit different people in different ways.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do quite a bit of programming myself (both personally and for my work), but I can never picture myself programming on a tablet (or even a tablet/keyboard combo). That's just not what I'm getting the tablet for.
I've just read Engadget's review of Nokia 2520, which is overall positive. But I thought it would be much better than the Surface 2, and apparently (according to their review), it isn't. In fact, I thought it will have a better battery life, while in fact it has worse.
As a student I also get a 10% discount on Surface only, and I have a $25 Microsoft Store gift card that I got eons ago, so that brings the total cost for a Surface 2 down to ~$370, which is phenomenal.
It's still in between Nokia 2520 and Surface 2...
Deusdies said:
I do quite a bit of programming myself (both personally and for my work), but I can never picture myself programming on a tablet (or even a tablet/keyboard combo). That's just not what I'm getting the tablet for.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To be honest even a laptop is less than ideal - if you're used to working on a multi-monitor desktop setup then a laptop will feel restrictive.
ThorburnJ said:
To be honest even a laptop is less than ideal - if you're used to working on a multi-monitor desktop setup then a laptop will feel restrictive.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do program on a laptop with a 14" 1366*768 display. I have used much higher resolution displays though and it is certainly alot better.
ThorburnJ said:
To be honest even a laptop is less than ideal - if you're used to working on a multi-monitor desktop setup then a laptop will feel restrictive.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep... I do all of my programming on a desktop. At work 3 monitors, at home 1, but 27". So, yes, tablet is just for movies, some games, etc.
It is possible to emulate some x86 programs on RT's ARM processor, however often it will be slow. Most desired programs won't run through emulation (including utorrent, VLC, Steam, etc)
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2095934
Doesn't Microsoft forbid metro apps from having native binaries?
If so, how would you ever write something like a wii emulator on today's hardware? It would be way too slow. Perhaps two decades from now?
Rakeesh_j said:
Doesn't Microsoft forbid metro apps from having native binaries?
If so, how would you ever write something like a wii emulator on today's hardware? It would be way too slow. Perhaps two decades from now?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No...
Many "metro" apps are normal C/C++ compiled natively for the processor itself.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
No...
Many "metro" apps are normal C/C++ compiled natively for the processor itself.
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Click to collapse
Oh. Then what was with MS's comments that they deliberately wanted to make metro apps limited? They can't just mean in terms of being sandboxed? You can still sandbox without sacrificing utility; Android does that quite well.
Rakeesh_j said:
Oh. Then what was with MS's comments that they deliberately wanted to make metro apps limited? They can't just mean in terms of being sandboxed? You can still sandbox without sacrificing utility; Android does that quite well.
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Click to collapse
trying to start flamewars again...
SixSixSevenSeven said:
trying to start flamewars again...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, it's very much on topic. If the goal was to start a flame war, then the OP beat me to it a long time ago.
Kindly point out something an android app can do which a windows app cannot (there are some, I personally wanted to use a certain feature but until 8.1 could not, yeah 8.1 added loads more features)
Apps requiring root do not count as root is a device modification much the same way modified RT devices can do more.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Kindly point out something an android app can do which a windows app cannot (there are some, I personally wanted to use a certain feature but until 8.1 could not, yeah 8.1 added loads more features)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Honestly I don't know as I've never published any apps and I've only done very small scale development for my own uses. I'm just going by MS's commentary on where they think they went wrong with their 8 strategy, in which they indicate that they believe making apps limited in scope wasn't a mistake (effectively they believe that their marketing was the reason for RT's failure, and that it will be easier to market 2 OSes instead of 3.)
I do know however that you see some pretty complex applications on Android whereas I haven't seen anything on RT hasn't already been done better in a web browser. In fact, I've seen web browsers do things that RT will not, take for example that version of battlefield which runs in Firefox and Chrome (RT could technically do that, granted.) The most complicated emulator available for RT is for snes, which also can be done in FF and Chrome: http://www.b81.org/~tjw/smw/
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Apps requiring root do not count as root is a device modification much the same way modified RT devices can do more.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't really see it that way. Just issue an 'oem unlock' command to the device and you're golden. RT devices however by design forbid doing anything like that.
That said, the ultimate limitation in RT comes from this: RT won't run any app unless MS explicitly greenlights it. A lot of the more interesting apps (to me anyways) are ones that companies like MS and in some circumstances even Google wish didn't exist at all, like ad blockers, being able to tether without carrier permission, etc. Even so, not all of these require root and there's nothing stopping you from using them on Android.
Rakeesh_j said:
Honestly I don't know as I've never published any apps and I've only done very small scale development for my own uses. I'm just going by MS's commentary on where they think they went wrong with their 8 strategy, in which they indicate that they believe making apps limited in scope wasn't a mistake (effectively they believe that their marketing was the reason for RT's failure, and that it will be easier to market 2 OSes instead of 3.)
I do know however that you see some pretty complex applications on Android whereas I haven't seen anything on RT hasn't already been done better in a web browser. In fact, I've seen web browsers do things that RT will not, take for example that version of battlefield which runs in Firefox and Chrome (RT could technically do that, granted.) The most complicated emulator available for RT is for snes, which also can be done in FF and Chrome: http://www.b81.org/~tjw/smw/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Then if you don't know, then why are you claiming it to be so poor in comparison to android? What apps *are available* doesnt dictate what apps the system is capable of.
In 8.0 the biggest issues were lack of low level interfaces to peripherals and instead being limited to high level wrappers provided by WinRT. In 8.1 there are now WinRT wrapper classes to raw USB and bluetooth, both of which were absent in 8.0. Besides that, there isn't any OpenGL, but there is DirectX which android doesnt have and serves the same purpose.
WIndows 8 apps are perfectly capable of hosting a first person shooter such as battlefield, there is a massive difference between it being incapable and simply not been done (actually there are FPS games, but they are more inline with the crap you see on android).
Your battlefield example is entirely bull**** either way as you seemed to be arguing for android whereas android doesnt have battlefield either.
Even if microsoft ditched windows RT, the store is part of windows 8. It would still be present. Windows RT is just an ARM port of windows 8. WinRT is the so called "sandbox" store apps run in and is present on both operating systems.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Then if you don't know, then why are you claiming it to be so poor in comparison to android? What apps *are available* doesnt dictate what apps the system is capable of.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Two things:
Comments I've heard from developers
And most importantly, Microsoft's own comments
SixSixSevenSeven said:
In 8.0 the biggest issues were lack of low level interfaces to peripherals and instead being limited to high level wrappers provided by WinRT. In 8.1 there are now WinRT wrapper classes to raw USB and bluetooth, both of which were absent in 8.0. Besides that, there isn't any OpenGL, but there is DirectX which android doesnt have and serves the same purpose.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That later bit is more of a reason to not want RT. Virtually every platform out there uses OpenGL. The number of devices that use directx exclusively make up such a small percentage of the marketplace that it almost may as well not even exist. Android wouldn't gain anything at all by having it (really, no developer out there has ever said "I'd port to Android if only it supported directx,") and it really hurts that RT/WP don't have it. For this reason, any developer who says that they'll only use DirectX is shooting themselves in the foot. Microsoft is doing exactly that - too many games developers said they probably wouldn't ever bother porting anything to RT/WP because they don't want to spend all of the money on porting because the revenue gained is almost guaranteed to not be worth it. Sure, some game engines now support it, but that doesn't solve the problem of backporting their own customizations and additions to the base engine.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
WIndows 8 apps are perfectly capable of hosting a first person shooter such as battlefield, there is a massive difference between it being incapable and simply not been done (actually there are FPS games, but they are more inline with the crap you see on android).
Your battlefield example is entirely bull**** either way as you seemed to be arguing for android whereas android doesnt have battlefield either.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's probably because you missed the point entirely. It has nothing to do with whether or not battlefield is an FPS. The point is that I've seen web browsers do more impressive things than RT apps. Battlefield is merely an example of why even Chrome is more valuable to me than RT.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Even if microsoft ditched windows RT, the store is part of windows 8. It would still be present. Windows RT is just an ARM port of windows 8. WinRT is the so called "sandbox" store apps run in and is present on both operating systems.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You aren't telling me anything new here. Microsoft has done something similar more than once and we've already seen the results: It'll just go derelict and then eventually deprecated but still kept around.
I actually wouldn't be surprised if MS created an app store for win32 apps similar to what apple is doing with OSX. Their current store model is just a flat out knockoff of the ios app model (contrast to the play store model where each publisher is at their own discretion, and some people still wonder why android/play is by far more popular than the rest) so they may as well go all the way with it.