Develop Bugs

WP7 -IS- Backwards compatible (well almost)

Applications that were made for Windows Mobile 6 are compatible with Windows Phone 7 Series. The interface of the new mobile operating system has been changed though, so the user interface for these applications will have to be changed as well.
"So there is no reason why programs written for Windows Mobile 6 cannot run on the new version of the OS", said Maarten Sonneveld of Microsoft Netherlands to Tweakers.net. "The interface is complete different though, so the applications will have to be changed somewhat before being ready for Windows Phone 7 Series".
It is still unclear how developers can port their user interfaces to the new version of Windows Mobile. Microsoft will only disclose how applications can be developed and distributed at their developer event Mix2010.
Microsoft announced it’s new OS on Monday afternoon at the Mobile World Congress in Barcelona. The OS is primarily aimed at synchronisation and integration with Microsft-services like Windows Live, Bing, Zune and Xbox Live. Aside from those Windows Phone 7 Series can also synchronise with Google-accounts and facebook.
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Source
So in summary, while none of the current applications will run on it, the underlying non-UI APIs will be compatible. So if understand correctly, porting would just a case of redeveloping the UI then recompiling, rather than starting completely from scratch. This acts to filter out apps with no more developer support, and promote a consistent UI.
Doesn't sound too bad to me.

That might explain why TomTom was seen on that screenshot of WP7 running on the HD2 (although, it could be a fake!). TomTom takes control of the screen, so uses no WM interface elements. So, it might be able to run full-screen apps/games without changes.
But, who knows...

elyl said:
That might explain why TomTom was seen on that screenshot of WP7 running on the HD2 (although, it could be a fake!). TomTom takes control of the screen, so uses no WM interface elements. So, it might be able to run full-screen apps/games without changes.
But, who knows...
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I was just thinking the same except if you use the included .net controls, there's no reason that the OS couldn't just reskin them automatically to be at least somewhat more in line with the WP7 styling.

This would be excellent if it's true - and I can't see why it wouldn't be. The UI may be new but why throw away a perfectly good underlying core.
What would also be ideal is if the "multi-tasking" involved an app being set to pause in the background by default, but with a "keep me running" API call available for apps that needed it. I'm sure most apps hog resourses not because they need to but because the developer hasn't really thought about how the rest of the device performs when his app has been left running.

Makes sense, WindowsCE core is still the same

Zaim2 said:
Applications that were made for Windows Mobile 6 are compatible with Windows Phone 7 Series
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Absolutely wrong statement due to incorrect translation. Original: "De interface van Windows Phone 7 Series is totaal anders, waardoor er in elk geval iets aan de applicaties moet gebeuren voordat ze geschikt zijn voor Windows Phone 7 Series"
Even google translates it correctly:
"The interface of Windows 7 Phone Series is different, which in any case something should happen to the applications before they are suitable for Windows 7 Phone Series".
We have some "ms confidential" documentation dated January 2010 that proves that none of the existing apps would be compatible with WinPhone7. And the only programming suite that is available to "generic" application-writers is Silverlight+XNA. Native apps are prohibited. Only OEMs and MO are allowed to create them (and even they have a set of limitations).
We would not have even source code compatibility - as all our C++ apps have to be converted to .NET.

mamaich said:
We have some "ms confidential" documentation dated January 2010...
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What the heck? And you say that only now? What else is in there? Any word about how background tasks are handled? Please give us some more information, or maybe, can you upload that documentation?

freyberry said:
maybe, can you upload that documentation?
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Obviously I cannot. As it would reveal the person who provided it.
Just to prove that such info really exists - see attached screenshots.
I really hope that the community would force MS to change such a dumb idea to limit independent software vendors to create only managed apps. Prohibiting C++ as a developing language, and "hiding" Windows API from programmer would force lots of developers to abandon this platform. The main reason of success of old WinMobile OSes was the ability to recompile "desktop" apps to WinMobile with just a minor set of changes (ANSI->Unicode + some interface changes).
P.S. I don't read PMs.

Obviously I cannot. As it would reveal the person who provided it.
Just to prove that such info really exists - see attached screenshots.
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Well, there's certainly a way to remove that information. But anyway, what about background tasks? Are third party applications allowed to run in the background?

mamaich said:
Obviously I cannot. As it would reveal the person who provided it.
Just to prove that such info really exists - see attached screenshots.
I really hope that the community would force MS to change such a dumb idea to limit independent software vendors to create only managed apps. Prohibiting C++ as a developing language, and "hiding" Windows API from programmer would force lots of developers to abandon this platform. The main reason of success of old WinMobile OSes was the ability to recompile "desktop" apps to WinMobile with just a minor set of changes (ANSI->Unicode + some interface changes).
P.S. I don't read PMs.
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Wow, I can't believe noone has picked up on this

freyberry said:
Are third party applications allowed to run in the background?
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OS itself supports multitasking, see attach. But "Windows Phone OS 7.0 Application Platform" that we'll be forced to use to create apps may force our application to be paused in background. I never programmed Silverlight and XNA and can't tell how multitatsking is made in them.
WinPhone 7 == Zune Phone. Both are based on CE kernel, and they should have lots of common in implementation of multitasking, clipboard, etc.

OS itself supports multitasking, see attach. But "Windows Phone OS 7.0 Application Platform" that we'll be forced to use to create apps may force our application to be paused in background.
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The question is, can we write applications that are not automatically suspended when sent to the background? What are the policies on this?
It says multiple processes can run at the same time, but it does not say whether they get suspended automatically.
Is there any info on this? Maybe in the "Scheduling" section?

I’m not sure this is a big deal. I can see them saying a lot of native C++ apps may have compatibility issues. I could go either way on it with the limited amount of information I have on this. I’ll have a better opinion at and after MIX
Note that this could be old documentation, and it’s pretty annoying you're leaking confidential documentation. Personally, I hope you get into trouble for breaking your contract - they trust you and you're posting it? Yuck.
To be fair, though, every app we’ve written has been managed, and Microsoft hasn't t said P/Invoking is verboten, so what would be the problem?
There’s probably exceptions for games and the like, and the documents you've scanned even say a waiver is available to use the Native APIs. So I don’t know what you're complaining about…
Microsoft's dev teams have been listening to developers - why not get them to chime in and also give them a chance to hear you. Posting confidential Microsoft documents, assuming those are real, is not the way to get them to listen
Best,
-Auri

freyberry said:
The question is, can we write applications that are not automatically suspended when sent to the background? What are the policies on this?
It says multiple processes can run at the same time, but it does not say whether they get suspended automatically.
Is there any info on this? Maybe in the "Scheduling" section?
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Click to collapse
Personally, I like Android's approach to this, where Services can run in the background, but UI apps are allowed to be "put to sleep" while other apps run. But then again, we may see a lot of that come into play come MIX and "Answer Time"
Best,
-Auri

Well, I am now both excited and nervous -I think I will just cool my jets until MIX10 and just enjoy the eye candy for now. At worst - if the interface is nice, but the core is crap I am sure some of the boys here at xda will make us an inteface port for 6.5.x that acts and looks like the new hotness with the old compatibility. - lets see MIX

AuriRahimzadeh said:
Note that this could be old documentation, and it’s pretty annoying you're leaking confidential documentation.
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Docs are dated 2010.
I'm not leaking the documentation. I'm sharing the information that anyway would be opened in some days, maybe weeks.
And screens are posted here just as a confirmation of my words. You may think that these pics come from my mind and are made with photoshop - it is your opinion.
I really think that WinPhone 7 would be a failure similar to desktop Vista. Of cause some people would like it, but most would stay on WM 6.x and wait for the next version.
Regarding P/Invoke. As far as I've seen, "unsafe" operations are prohibited in XNA and Silverlight. Otherwise we would be able to call coredll funcs and run native apps (and do everything else that is allowed in our chamber).

mamaich said:
Docs are dated 2010.
I'm not leaking the documentation. I'm sharing the information that anyway would be opened in some days, maybe weeks.
And screens are posted here just as a confirmation of my words. You may think that these pics come from my mind and are made with photoshop - it is your opinion.
I really think that WinPhone 7 would be a failure similar to desktop Vista. Of cause some people would like it, but most would stay on WM 6.x and wait for the next version.
Regarding P/Invoke. As far as I've seen, "unsafe" operations are prohibited in XNA and Silverlight. Otherwise we would be able to call coredll funcs and run native apps (and do everything else that is allowed in our chamber).
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Mamaich any though of a WP7 ce6.0 bsp for all the current cortex A8 devices running on a ce5.2 bsp, will the new kernel support them natively or will extensive bsp/bootloader hacking be required?

P/invoke surely is a limitation of .NET CF, rather than Silverlight/XNA libraries?
I think it would be a bit stupid to remove P/Invoking, because it's just not realistic to rely on .NETCF alone which has soooo much stuff stripped out to minimize size.
Will we be seeing a whole new .NETCF so soon after 3.5? I highly doubt it...Unless MS have been working overtime the past year

Shame, time to stop mobile development altogether if this is true. When we developers are considered as dumb earning pipes for companies who in their arrogant big ways think they have all the wisdom, and app developers only make annoying software that makes their precious leaky OS'es crash, it's time to move on. i would have been talking about IPhone, Android etc, but sadly we must add Microsoft to the list also.
Then there's the $1195,- and airplane tickets we have to pay to get to the Mix2010 in oder to maybe maybe get to be a "partner" with access to limited native API's (probably only reserved for the big companies) and don't even bother talking about giving away 30% of our earnings to a company that last year made how many billions of profits was it ?
Time to start an XDA OS based on REAL Linux maybe ? NVidia have a nice dev-board available for $400,- with Tegra on it. That's what I call developer friendly.
Cheers !

Regardless of how this will play out, I'm pretty sure of two things:
1. Closing down the OS may be beneficial for the majority of users by bringing stability, ease of use, UI consistency, etc. Even though I don't like it.
2. Because the OS itself is multitasking, any and all restrictions may be hacked around, and a "jailbreak" will be possible.
Depending on how this whole thing will be implemented, jailbreaking and using "illegal" apps may be a major PITA (think iPhone 3GS/tethered jailbreak) or as easy as a few registry tweaks/installing additional certs/whatever. If Apple didn't chase JB with every update it would be a rather good platform for both mainstream "ordinary" users and those who want rather unusual things from their phones.
We'll have to wait and see how it evolves really to make a final judgment.

Advantages over iPhone

Seeing as WP7 will be almost as crippled as the iPhone, let's see ways in which it will be better, besides replaceable battery and memory card(and it's not certain every OEM will follow up on those either). So far it has two weaknesses that only the iPhone has: Lack of multitasking and apps must go through the marketplace.
In order to pick up iPhone users it will have to offer some advantage that the average iPhoner will notice.
Some advantages:
Information at a glance a la today screen with the hubs. iPhone has nothing like this.
It will (supposedly) have some degree of multitasking.
Two more hardware buttons.

Its funny since I've had my HD2 I've not really used multitasking and when I had my iPhone only not being able to use Spotify in the background bugged me so maybe certainly for me multitasking isn't a be all and end all.

Having read lots of stuff about WP7S, the conclusion I have come to is this...
There will be two types of apps
1. Apps with no need to run in the background
2. Apps that do need to run in the background
Examples of type 1 are games, spreadsheets and word processors.
Examples of type 2 are IM apps like palringo, and music streaming services such as pandora.
What will happen is that when you develop an app, by default it will not have the rights to use the background APIs. In order to gain access to them and have an app run in the background, you'll need to ask Microsoft to provide the access and make it a type 2 app. Microsoft will only allow this if you can convince them it is necessary for the functioning of your app.
Type 1 apps will simply pause when the user switches away from them. They will remain in memory but will be unable to execute any code until the user switches back to them, whence they will resume execution. This will ensure the app cannot hog any CPU and cause the UI to stutter or slow down. This is definitely a good thing.
Type 2 apps are given access to particular APIs to allow them to, for instance, download updates or postings on IM systems. This will be strictly controlled and priority will always be given to the UI, again to ensure it remains smooth and responsive.
That's my take on what's going to happen, and we'll see if I'm right at MIX 2010 next month.
So your answer is - yes it will multitask but only when it is truly needed. Which to me is the best of both worlds. It will ensure a smooth user experience whilst still allowing background operations.

Jim Coleman said:
In order to gain access to them and have an app run in the background, you'll need to ask Microsoft to provide the access and make it a type 2 app. Microsoft will only allow this if you can convince them it is necessary for the functioning of your app.
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Lets hope theyre not too stingy with giving out access to these API's!
The hubs/services (I'm not sure what MS is calling these) system looks good; getting new relative options available on multiple hubs just from installing a single app (like they demo'd with Facebook) should make all the apps work together much better than on an iPhone. I already want to try to make one to generate a music playlist based on past plays, and another to find lyrics to the currently playing song; If I understand the system properly, these would automatically integrate into any 3rd party apps using the appropriate media API's.
Also the context-sensitive search looks to be awesome.
One disadvantage: possible lack of native code execution and probably no OpenGL support - making it harder for iPhone app developers to port their existing apps to Windows Phone.

weesals said:
One disadvantage: possible lack of native code execution and probably no OpenGL support - making it harder for iPhone app developers to port their existing apps to Windows Phone.
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why the heck should iPhone devs have an easy migration to WP7 if WM 6 devs don't?

weesals said:
Lets hope theyre not too stingy with giving out access to these API's!
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The impression I'm getting so far is that they will be very stingy indeed. The only people who will ever get access to non-standard API's will be phone manufacturers and networks, and even they usually won't get access to the native API's most of the time. Microsoft will not publish any documentation about native API's. To get access to them the manufacturers will have to apply to Microsoft on a case by case basis. If Microsoft judges that a native API is required (and if there actually is one that might help) then only at that point will they release any information, and a condition of this is that they will vet the resulting piece of software to verify that the native API is being used correctly, and forbid the release of the software if it isn't.
What we don't know yet is where multi-tasking sits within all this. Is it a standard managed API, an extended managed API, or a native API?

why must every phone be compared to an iphone...personally I never liked the iphone, never will...only good thing about iphone is the apps..otherwise it sucks..and high end smartphones should not be compared to it!

The only thing I like about iPhone is how I use the virtual keyboard to type text.
I have tested HD2 and iPhone in a store, and from my own perspective, iPhone is more responsive and accurate compared to HD2.
I hope WP7 can be better than those 2 platforms in this task.
giggles33 said:
why must every phone be compared to an iphone...personally I never liked the iphone, never will...only good thing about iphone is the apps..otherwise it sucks..and high end smartphones should not be compared to it!
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gogol said:
The only thing I like about iPhone is how I use the virtual keyboard to type text.
I have tested HD2 and iPhone in a store, and from my own perspective, iPhone is more responsive and accurate compared to HD2.
I hope WP7 can be better than those 2 platforms in this task.
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Click to collapse
that isnt aways based on the OS or software, but the quality of the touch screen.

Jim Coleman said:
Having read lots of stuff about WP7S, the conclusion I have come to is this...
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This definitely seems like the best thing to do for multitasking in WP7.
We are going to need a task manager though...
As for comparing to the iPhone:
-WP7 will be available in different hardware configurations, giving the consumer a choice in the style and capability of their device.
-Xbox integration, which will most likely include Arcade games (ported for playability of touchscreens)
-Better hardware standards
-Not quite as locked down (hopefully)

RAMMANN said:
why the heck should iPhone devs have an easy migration to WP7 if WM 6 devs don't?
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Because that's where the money is.

Seems people are struggling to come up with any, maybe something magical will appear in the next few weeks, although I doubt it, the advantages of WM seem like they will be gone with WP7, people on forums like this and blogs have been asking for a windows mobile iphone [without being an iphone] and it looks like they're going to heed the demand.

The most important advantages are gone.
They've made an exact copy and think it is enough. But it's not. When you try to catch up, you have to be better.
There's almost nothing WP7 is better at. It's an exact copy of iPhone OS with a better UI on top, but lacking the thousands of applications. That's not going to be enough and I really can't think about a reason why consumers and developers would be excited about this.
(and don't get me wrong - I LOVE the UI - it's just not enough)

Free Microsoft Office (Document viewing, creation, downloading, and editing)
Abobe Flash Player 10.1 is coming
File downloads (possibly)
Apps like a Wi-Fi router and file manager will likely come and be allowed
XBOX LIVE! Enough said.
Zune integration and support (I'm a Zune user)
1GHz Snapdragon is the processor minimum (This will lead to awesome apps and games)
WVGA display minimum (You might not care too much about this one, but I've seen the difference, and it's AMAZING!)
Bing search (That's just my preference.)
Contextual search (A handy feature, I suppose.)
There is not an app collection of 100,000 with most of which being totally useless. This means that you"ll be able to find the good apps.
Even if Microsoft won't allow apps like a Wi-Fi router and file manager, all we would need to do would be to get all WinPhone7 users on XDA to install the XNA Game Studio (and possibly the Win Phone7 SDK) and we could simply upload .ccgame files to XDA instead of .cab files.

giggles33 said:
why must every phone be compared to an iphone...personally I never liked the iphone, never will...only good thing about iphone is the apps..otherwise it sucks..and high end smartphones should not be compared to it!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I know! Why must smartphones always be compared to a simple feature phone! I've tried the iPhone/ iPod touch (3rd generation) at Best Buy stores, and, let's just say, they froze more and gave out more errors in 5 sec. than 5 WinMo devices did combined over the course of 2 hours. The iPhone's keyboard isn't too great either. It's (the errors thing) 100% true.

Jim Coleman said:
There will be two types of apps
1. Apps with no need to run in the background
2. Apps that do need to run in the background
Examples of type 1 are games, spreadsheets and word processors.
Examples of type 2 are IM apps like palringo, and music streaming services such as pandora.
What will happen is that when you develop an app, by default it will not have the rights to use the background APIs. In order to gain access to them and have an app run in the background, you'll need to ask Microsoft to provide the access and make it a type 2 app. Microsoft will only allow this if you can convince them it is necessary for the functioning of your app.
Type 1 apps will simply pause when the user switches away from them. They will remain in memory but will be unable to execute any code until the user switches back to them, whence they will resume execution. This will ensure the app cannot hog any CPU and cause the UI to stutter or slow down. This is definitely a good thing.
Type 2 apps are given access to particular APIs to allow them to, for instance, download updates or postings on IM systems. This will be strictly controlled and priority will always be given to the UI, again to ensure it remains smooth and responsive..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is the right answer. Anybody who calms down would see that this makes sense. More Apple-like approval process for Type 2, free reign for Type 1
Shasarak said:
The impression I'm getting so far is that they will be very stingy indeed. The only people who will ever get access to non-standard API's will be phone manufacturers and networks, and even they usually won't get access to the native API's most of the time.
What we don't know yet is where multi-tasking sits within all this. Is it a standard managed API, an extended managed API, or a native API?
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Click to collapse
Yeah, you're talking about native vs managed stuff, which is not the same as simply allowing an app to have a background process. True, AT&T and HTC will have to apply to for native API use for stuff relating to making calls, etc, but that was only about OEMS and network operators.
Regular 3rd party guys, of which there are many, will be expected to get a way to do what they need on the device. Pandora we've seen in Music, you can expect apps like Palringo showing up in People

burnblue said:
This is the right answer. Anybody who calms down would see that this makes sense. More Apple-like approval process for Type 2, free reign for Type 1
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Just because it makes sense doesn't mean Microsoft will act like that. In fact, I'm sure they will not.

The mass market will not benefit from every joe having all the API's because it's going make programs that cause glitches/crashes/memory leaks, etc. They are doing what they think is best for mass market and that is make sure things work well on the device and everything is user friendly with the least amount of hiccups possible. So that means more restrictions on us.

^^^ +1
Jim Coleman said:
What will happen is that when you develop an app, by default it will not have the rights to use the background APIs. In order to gain access to them and have an app run in the background, you'll need to ask Microsoft to provide the access and make it a type 2 app. Microsoft will only allow this if you can convince them it is necessary for the functioning of your app.
Type 1 apps will simply pause when the user switches away from them. They will remain in memory but will be unable to execute any code until the user switches back to them, whence they will resume execution. This will ensure the app cannot hog any CPU and cause the UI to stutter or slow down. This is definitely a good thing.
Type 2 apps are given access to particular APIs to allow them to, for instance, download updates or postings on IM systems. This will be strictly controlled and priority will always be given to the UI, again to ensure it remains smooth and responsive.
That's my take on what's going to happen, and we'll see if I'm right at MIX 2010 next month.
So your answer is - yes it will multitask but only when it is truly needed. Which to me is the best of both worlds. It will ensure a smooth user experience whilst still allowing background operations.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This neither solves problems nor guarantees anything though. Poor code is still poor code. Too many apps running is STILL too many apps running (slows the UI). MS can police neither. So, your #2 solution really makes no sense and has no advantages. MS has no way of predicting who will run what app and when on their phones. What if a user chooses to run several "Type 2" apps? Will you get some sort of error message? Will the MS police arrest you for ruining the UI experience? What happens after several years of approved type 2 apps hitting the market? Now were back to the same problems of WM.

Dude, we're talking about 1Ghz+, 512MB+ RAM phones here! You can run lots of apps without slowing anything down. Really, the "multitasking slows down the UI" argument is utter bull****. A good OS handles multitasking in a way that doesn't slow down anything. Restrictions are only necessary if the OS itself sucks. A good OS doesn't need them.

Windows Phone 7 - The "Genuine Windows Phone" certificate

This is a new feature for WP7. An API will be provided for external services to validate that a call is coming from a Genuine Windows Phone. This will be accomplished by a requirement that every phone have a unique certificate applied during manufacturing process (similar to an IMEI, but more than a simple number, an actual .cer)
The certificate is to be stored in the "Device Provisioning Partition" during the manufacturing process and is to be destroyed upon completion of manufacturing. Any time a reflash occurs, a new certificate is to be issued.
This represents a significant change from the existing paradigm as your phone will be instantly uniquely identifiable through this method.

Bump for visibility

Is that going to make flashing custom ROMs an issue?

i think it gonna make flashing difficult..
if you flashed with custom, your WP7 would not be taken as genuine hehehe like Windows 7 lol

maharz said:
i think it gonna make flashing difficult..
if you flashed with custom, your WP7 would not be taken as genuine hehehe like Windows 7 lol
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Click to collapse
lol then you have to mod your bios.

On the bright side, we may have fewer reasons to flash custom ROMs on WP7. What are our current reasons for flashing?
1. We need new OS versions on our devices when OEMs don't provide that. Well, this is supposed to be taken care of by centralized update mechanisms for all devices. WP7 will also support partial updates where you don't have to change everything but rather update certain components. Also, firmware files should be replaceable - otherwise OS updates wouldn't work. We'll be less dependant on HTC or whomever.
2. We need components from other devices (newer versions of Manila etc.). Well, these won't exist anymore.
3. We want light ROMs. WP7 will need things added, not removed, for the most part, and crapware will be very limited.

vangrieg said:
On the bright side, we may have fewer reasons to flash custom ROMs on WP7. What are our current reasons for flashing?
1. We need new OS versions on our devices when OEMs don't provide that. Well, this is supposed to be taken care of by centralized update mechanisms for all devices. WP7 will also support partial updates where you don't have to change everything but rather update certain components. Also, firmware files should be replaceable - otherwise OS updates wouldn't work. We'll be less dependant on HTC or whomever.
2. We need components from other devices (newer versions of Manila etc.). Well, these won't exist anymore.
3. We want light ROMs. WP7 will need things added, not removed, for the most part, and crapware will be very limited.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Very true. With the OTA MS updates and such it will make life easier for updating the OS.

That could also bring a pitfall - hacking attempts that once worked get blocked.

Da_G said:
This is a new feature for WP7. An API will be provided for external services to validate that a call is coming from a Genuine Windows Phone. This will be accomplished by a requirement that every phone have a unique certificate applied during manufacturing process (similar to an IMEI, but more than a simple number, an actual .cer)
The certificate is to be stored in the "Device Provisioning Partition" during the manufacturing process and is to be destroyed upon completion of manufacturing. Any time a reflash occurs, a new certificate is to be issued.
This represents a significant change from the existing paradigm as your phone will be instantly uniquely identifiable through this method.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1. Project Echelon, lol.
2. End of dev'n'hacking, lol.
(now, remove both lol's)
M$ REALLY thinks it may compete with iphone(and apple stupidity), can you believe...

The "uniquely identifiable phone" feature is probably the major reason for this. Face it, outside of these forums, how many "non-genuine" WM builds are there?
What this provides is a token-pair for secure message encryption and a single point of origin/destination for all those notifications.
Thank you for the information, Da_G.

So it seems this will also affect us being able to port a WM7 ROM to another mobile?

So this means evry phone has a unique certificate

They will look for a way around that. For instance...who's to say microsoft are even implementing the certificate etc on prototypes...that would be darn impractical since there's so much chopping and changing in this developer stage, and do we know the servers are up and running? We should cross this bridge when we/Da_G come to it, and look for a bypass if not.
I do not think this money will be wasted if we dont port it to HD2, the fact is I will be the first to donate when pre-orders for the first HTC WP7 handset is outed so that Da_G can use his tools for that too. The JTAG test point will be useful to the community and I know Da_G will use it for the community...actually there's very little personal stuff he could do, and I doubt he would anyways, since all the uses will be of benefit to the community.
We should definitely start look at alternatives to the marketplace now, like Cydia. I'm not sure how the guy's doing it, whether he has servers etc, whether we could use them for multitasking/social networking or other uses. Depends how far microsoft go. Anyways, we all know that if m$ close it down and we cant jailbreak etc, then the community will have to migrate to android.

if i understand the situtation. If every phone is uniquely identifyable it means that imei may be part of cert calculations which means update code would have to be able to generate a cert or request a cert from the update server.
But if the phone checks the certs validity reverse engineering the check could help us fake cert files
EDIT:
after reading on rom deployment it seems that it cert files would need to be faked in order to port to other phones and updates will also involve trickery of its own
Unless somone does something even more awesome

[DFT] z..::H.O.W...T.O...N.A.T.I.V.E::..z [PREVIEW]

..::H.O.W...T.O...N.A.T.I.V.E::..
Hello,
today I had decided to start this thread about native development for WP7.
At the current moment I don't upload/attach any working stuffs to this message. It will happen a bit later, after new DFT ROMs release. This is because it's very difficult to run them for now.
Let's start from current achieved results:
1) It's possible to run any EXE files (after "FullUnlock")
2) Those EXE files can do any operations in the system (after "FullUnlock")
3) It's possible to show some GUI from this applications. But GUI has legacy Windows CE style, it's impossible to create Metro-style applications for now.
How can it be used by community?
We can develop a lot of homebrew applications: like porting emulators, old native applications, video players and etc.
It can be possible to port famous TCPMP player for example and get ultimate playback on Windows Phone 7!
Is it possible to run old Windows Mobile 6.5 applications without modifications?
No, it's not possible. A lot of different APIs are missing for those applications.
Is it hard to modify old Windows Mobile 6.5 applications?
Well, it's almost same like porting to pure Windows CE, but a lot of Windows CE stuffs are "damaged" inside Windows Phone. They just doesn't work right, because nobody never used/tested them before
Photos of sample "WP7 Native test"
Information for developers you can find in the next messages.
So I will release demo WP7 native application, when we fix issues with FullUnlock.
Demo will be as binary EXE file. And as VS2008 project, which can be good start point for other developers.
Now this thread dedicated for discussion, share ideas and thoughts.
DFT, Cotulla

Information about "FullUnlock"
Information about "FullUnlock"
DevUnlock actually allows only to deploy XAP files from external sources.
It doesn't give more privileges.
So we (DFT) developed "FullUnlock". FullUnlock is implemented as replacing some system files by wrappers, which allows any kind of access (disable access checking at all)
We replace LVMOD.DLL which used to check files and data (checksums, certificates and etc) and POLICYENGINE.DLL which implements internal objects access checking.
All written before means that FullUnlock at the current moment only possible by flashing custom ROM to device. In future maybe we can find good ways to do it without flashing, but for now I don't see any ideas how to do it without flashing.
Maybe we can replace DLLs inside \Windows\ directory (put a shadow copy), but I am not sure if it will work really. It's stuffs for future experiments.
It can be possible to do something near by editing policy values, but it need big research to find right way. As it still won't disable file checking, maybe we can add own certificate to right store and then sign files with them.
The last DFT 7720 MANGO ROMs contains FullUnlock, but it doesn't work as expected there few issues. as well some users got issues with debugging on those ROMs and etc. We will continue work under it
So I will release demo WP7 native application, when we fix issues with FullUnlock.
Demo will be as binary EXE file. And as VS2008 project, which can be good start point for other developers.
Now this thread dedicated for discussion, share ideas and thoughts.

For developers
For developers
(users do not read! danger for brain!)
First of all I want to talk about abilities of native code.
Most applications built in inside WP7 are native. But they don't use usual Dialog UI style, they are using some kind of Silvelight scripts. This kind of UI is called "UIX".
Main idea of UIX that DLL files have UIX resources inside which describe whole UI.
Something similar is used inside CE 7.0 Slivelight - there some xml compiler which make binary data and put them as resources inside DLL. I don't know how to decode this binary data.
Seems Zune desktop application also using this framework.
So UIX used some kind of scripts for UI part and callbacks for all actions.
If we decode this UIX format, we will able to change/modify UI as we want, like it was before with regular resources inside DLL. But UIX must be much more powerful.
We can't use UIX for native application because we don't know how to use it, how to make proper binary data and etc. It's hard to reverse.
But native application can have some GUI with Windows CE style (you can see examples on the photos above)
Another issue: If you call API function "CreateWindowW" you won't see anything on the screen. It seems because shell handle all output, so window doesn't visible.
After some searching I found inside some test ROM nice DLL called "WindowTreeUpdater.dll". After looking inside and decoding functions parameters, it's working!
Basic idea: you create window and call function from this DLL and Window appear on the screen. There seems some kind of proxy engine to output legacy windows on top of shell output.
Nice, it's working...
So we can use usual windows for UI inside native application.
There present standard controls, but they work rather laggy (hey, and looks too).
Basic controls like PushButton, Static, CheckBox, Radiobutton, Icon are working.
About extended controls: (Progress bar, list view, and etc)
they come from Commctrl.dll usually, it was present inside Initial/NODO releases, ut it was removed inside MANGO. I was able to run NODO Commctrl.dll under MANGO after some modifications. But all this controls are shown on screen, but they don't do anything on input. So you can see toolbar, but can't press any button.
CommDlg.dll is missing and never was inside WP7.
There present AYGSHELL.DLL, but most functions are broken. For example, I was not able to create menu bar.
So, a lot of functions are broken, like MessageBox not working.
But we still can create own custom controls and use them for developing.
For example porting TCPMP means that we will need reimplement UI fully - because toolbar doesn't work. slider also won't. Maybe get and reuse some source from ReactOS or NT40 CommCtrl

reserved1reserved1

reserved2reserved2

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This is some crazy ****! I like it

for...all...devices!? If possible...damn
I just came...

Holly smoke !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Way to go guys....BRAVO... This is a major breakthrough for wp7 dev
Once again well done DFTeam

You guys are beasts...please keep it up

for...all...devices!? If possible...damn
I just came...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
For now it's only for HTC devices with flashing custom ROM

The UIX/UIB scripts are a real pain.. I tried going through them a while back to change the annoying notification system (10 seconds? Really, Microsoft?) and figured it would all boil down to the usual XML-style script that WM6.5 and other MS products use, but the format is newer and there doesn't seem to be an easy way to decompile them.
From what I do know, however, is that it's more of an encoding than a compilation, and can be decoded if we can figure out what all the different headers mean... but that's a serious reverse engineering project.

Keep it up.is it possible to add Samsung device into support list?

Great work! Are there any multitasking restrictions for these apps? presumably because they are not Silverlight they will not be present in the task switcher & the app will be in charge of when the process terminates?
Looking forward to doing some nice low-level operations - hopefully this will open a whole new world for WP7 dev
Sent from my 7 Pro T7576 using Board Express

That's great，，，Thanks

Cotulla said:
For now it's only for HTC devices with flashing custom ROM
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hopefully this will change when you receive the Samsung Focus and try custom ROMs.

Blade0rz said:
Great work! Are there any multitasking restrictions for these apps? presumably because they are not Silverlight they will not be present in the task switcher & the app will be in charge of when the process terminates?
Looking forward to doing some nice low-level operations - hopefully this will open a whole new world for WP7 dev
Sent from my 7 Pro T7576 using Board Express
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would suspect that they won't be killed unless there's an Out of Memory issue (you can see the whitelists for that in the registry), because these processes are not like the silverlight/xna apps that are launched in Taskman.exe. Whether they show up in multitask lists, idk, but they probably won't be killed in the traditional way..

but that's a serious reverse engineering project.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes...
maybe it's precompiled XAML scripts, like inside Managed applications?
Great work! Are there any multitasking restrictions for these apps? presumably because they are not Silverlight they will not be present in the task switcher & the app will be in charge of when the process terminates?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would suspect that they won't be killed unless there's an Out of Memory issue (you can see the whitelists for that in the registry), because these processes are not like the silverlight/xna apps that are launched in Taskman.exe. Whether they show up in multitask lists, idk, but they probably won't be killed in the traditional way..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Plain EXE can run without restrictions, but I guess it will be killed at OOM condition still. EXE with window seems all a bit more complex. When I press back button it usually disappear after few seconds. I think window got WM_CLOSE or something at that moment. It should be researched more in the future.
Furthermore, I forgot to say: Interesting thing, before MANGO WP7 supports native XAP files too!
There was few files nativeinstaller* which implements native installation. There references inside for setup.dll and _setup.xml like in old CAB files.
But it was removed from MANGO seems

Cotulla said:
For now it's only for HTC devices with flashing custom ROM
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Would we be able to install an old application like fpsece for windows mobile? One of the biggest things I miss about windows mobile! I get paid today so I will be making a donation for your hard work! I'm currently using your custom rom on my HD7! Thanks again, and keep up the good work!

支持DFT論壇！支持xda-developers！至於你信不信，反正我是信了！

[Lib][Java/JAR] RegIOLib - Java/Registry In/Out Communications Lib

Hey there,
I thought it was time to release something new
A bit of background storyline:
My last projects were all VB/.Net programs, and they were somewhat great, sure. But I was missing the Linux portability and the programs aren't available on all Windows version - Which bugged me a lot. So I finally started coding in Java again! I'm also porting Universal Android Toolkit to Java, so I can easily create a Linux version of that as well.
(If you want to make that happen faster, please donate to me. I managed to fix my laptop, but I've only got a 60GB HDD and I need that much space alone for Windows and I have no income, I'm only 16 )
Anyways, now that you know where I'm coming from, as I'm porting Universal Android Toolkit to Java, I need access to the registry to save the application's settings and easily access them. But unlike .Net languages, Java doesn't have built-in support for this kind of operation, so I looked around and grabbed bits and pieces of code and stuck them together into a Java Class Library.
Thus, RegIOLib was born.
It's licensed under the GPL 3.0 (License info included in the source).
Downloads
Sourceforge
Source Code
http://github.com/Beatsleigher/RegIOLib
EDIT:
I forgot to mention the following: To get access to the Windows registry, the application needs to be started with administrative rights!
You can either achieve this by starting the app via a launcher (Which is what I tempt to do) or by right-clicking the file and allowing it to run as admin.

Beatsleigher said:
It's licensed under the GPL 3.0 (License info included in the source).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So closed source applications may not use it?

nikwen said:
So closed source applications may not use it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Of course they can use it
Just add a link to this thread and my website, done.
But if you're coming from some major company or something, then I would like something more

Beatsleigher said:
Of course they can use it
Just add a link to this thread and my website, done.
But if you're coming from some major company or something, then I would like something more
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
According to the GPL they can't because it requires the source code of derivative work to be published. That's the "problem" with that license if you use it for libraries.
Due to that the LGPL exists.

http://www.tldrlegal.com/license/gnu-general-public-license-v3-(gpl-3)
Limited commercial use. Must include source code. So no, GPL libraries and closed source applications do not mix.
An inelegant solution (which is the one I have always used actually) is to save settings in a file in %APPDATA%, no admin rights are required to edit files in there, or roll your own registry library for the application. Or Beatsleigher could LGPL it, but its his project, his license, I think he has full right to stick it under GPL if he wants to.
Although I dont think saving into a registry key is really cross platform Neither is %APPDATA% but using the %APPDATA% method is simple file read/write so on a cross platform application you can simply change the filepath dependent on the current execution environment.
System.getenv("APPDATA") will return the filepath for the current users APPDATA folder on windows. System.getProperty("user.home") works on linux and I think OSX to get the home directory. I dont think user.home works properly on windows. But it should be easy to switch between the 2 methods, add on an extra bit for where your settings file is and detect which to use at runtime.
Disadvantage (and to some advantage, depends on what the application is doing and whether the author likes it or not) is that saving configuration files as actual files means the user can play around with them. APPDATA is by default a hidden folder. But chances are most users dont even know what the registry is so in a way your settings might be more secure left in there.
Even possible to have an application load settings from the registry on windows and files on everything else.

SixSixSevenSeven said:
Or Beatsleigher could LGPL it, but its his project, his license, I think he has full right to stick it under GPL if he wants to.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Of course, he has that right. It's his code. The GNU even collected some reasons for sticking with the GPL.
Just wanted to point out that the GPL says that all derivative work (which includes programs that use libraries licenced under the GPL) must be GPL'ed (and therefore open source'd), too.

SixSixSevenSeven said:
http://www.tldrlegal.com/license/gnu-general-public-license-v3-(gpl-3)
Limited commercial use. Must include source code. So no, GPL libraries and closed source applications do not mix.
An inelegant solution (which is the one I have always used actually) is to save settings in a file in %APPDATA%, no admin rights are required to edit files in there, or roll your own registry library for the application. Or Beatsleigher could LGPL it, but its his project, his license, I think he has full right to stick it under GPL if he wants to.
Although I dont think saving into a registry key is really cross platform Neither is %APPDATA% but using the %APPDATA% method is simple file read/write so on a cross platform application you can simply change the filepath dependent on the current execution environment.
System.getenv("APPDATA") will return the filepath for the current users APPDATA folder on windows. System.getProperty("user.home") works on linux and I think OSX to get the home directory. I dont think user.home works properly on windows. But it should be easy to switch between the 2 methods, add on an extra bit for where your settings file is and detect which to use at runtime.
Disadvantage (and to some advantage, depends on what the application is doing and whether the author likes it or not) is that saving configuration files as actual files means the user can play around with them. APPDATA is by default a hidden folder. But chances are most users dont even know what the registry is so in a way your settings might be more secure left in there.
Even possible to have an application load settings from the registry on windows and files on everything else.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, as far as I'm aware, only Windows has a registry. I could be wrong though. In the past 5-6 years that I've been developing, I was only developing in VB.Net - A decision that I highly regret nowadays
But I'm so used to being able to save my settings in the registry where no 'normal' user can modify them and cause the program to misbehave, that I'd like my java programs to do so as well.
And seeming as Universal Android Toolkit is a big, big project (I've been developing it for over a year now and I'm constantly adding new features and now I'm porting it to Java making it really hard to release, but I'll get there eventually.
As soon as I've got the major stuff sorted out, I think I'm ready to release a Pre-Release candidate for testing and bug-fixing, but like I said, I'm still having some trouble and then I need to figure out a way to get those settings saved on Mac OS and Linux machines, for which I've already written some classes, but only to install ADB and stuff... And I'm getting side-tracked again, aren't I?
Anywhosers, I think I'm going to leave it under the GPL, even though you're right and that that means that closed-source programs can't use it, but I'll think of something. Even if it's a commercial license, say someone pays 2$ per program. I don't know.
But for the thing you said with %AppData%, what you can do on Linux machines, is (in Java)
Code:
private final String userProf = System.getenv("user.home");
final File tempDir = new File(userProf + "/Temp/(.)<Program>/temp.file");
private void setupTempDir() {
Path tmp = tempDir.getParentFile().getPath();
if (!tmp.exists()) {
tempDir.createNewFile();
}
}
That should solve that problem, then you COULD create some sort of settings file, but then it's just a pain to get and save the settings when you're using multiple GUIs, like me.
And then there's another way of doing that in Android apps, which I haven't figured out yet, mainly because I haven't even started with Android apps and I don't have the hard drive space to do so :/

Beatsleigher said:
Anywhosers, I think I'm going to leave it under the GPL, even though you're right and that that means that closed-source programs can't use it, but I'll think of something. Even if it's a commercial license, say someone pays 2$ per program. I don't know.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
OK, no problem. The GPL, however, says that you may not relicense it. :/
(All of my comments I've posted yet sound as if the GPL is a bad license. To clarify that: I don't think so. I prefer it for applications, but use the LGPL or Apache v2 license for libraries.)

Beatsleigher said:
(If you want to make that happen faster, please donate to me. I managed to fix my laptop, but I've only got a 60GB HDD and I need that much space alone for Windows and I have no income, I'm only 16 )
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm 17 and I have a 64GB SSD. C#, C++ works great.
Anyway 700 lines of license make no sense. The same about the portable registry library for linux. Could you tell the purpose of it?

Useless guy said:
I'm 17 and I have a 64GB SSD. C#, C++ works great.
Anyway 700 lines of license make no sense. The same about the portable registry library for linux. Could you tell the purpose of it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
GPL isn't 700 lines last time I checked, also I left a link to a simple description of it above (I do love tldrlegal).
There is no registry for linux, no one mentioned a portable registry for linux.

SixSixSevenSeven said:
GPL isn't 700 lines last time I checked, also I left a link to a simple description of it above (I do love tldrlegal).
There is no registry for linux, no one mentioned a portable registry for linux.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I did
Anyways, now that you know where I'm coming from, as I'm porting Universal Android Toolkit to Java, I need access to the registry to save the application's settings and easily access them.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

nikwen said:
OK, no problem. The GPL, however, says that you may not relicense it. :/
(All of my comments I've posted yet sound as if the GPL is a bad license. To clarify that: I don't think so. I prefer it for applications, but use the LGPL or Apache v2 license for libraries.)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm working on a license for it and any other such things. So I'll release it again for commercial and closed-source programs when it's done.
And yes, it does sound like you think it's a bad license. But meh. Everyone has their own opinion, I guess.

Useless guy said:
I'm 17 and I have a 64GB SSD. C#, C++ works great.
Anyway 700 lines of license make no sense. The same about the portable registry library for linux. Could you tell the purpose of it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
GPL isn' 700 lines.
That's cool for you, that you've got that stuff. I don't. Anyways, I'm getting away from .Net languages, and C# is easy for anyone to learn. Especially if they're coming from VB, like me.
C++ isn#'t my kinda thing, as you can't natively create GUIs in it. You always need some kind of library for that sort of stuff.
And I didn't intend this for use with Linux. Everyone that has basic knowledge of these operating systems knows that Linux, BSD, Mac OS etc. don't have registries. And I never even noted that I'm attempting to use registry stuff in Linux. I said I'm porting Universal Android Toolkit to JAVA, and that I need access to the WINDOWS registry to save the application's settings in the reg, so that users can actively change the settings if the program starts misbehaving.

Useless guy said:
I did
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I said JAVA, not Linux. What I probably did say, however, is that I'm porting my program to Java so that it can easily be ported to said OSs. But never that I'm attempting to save my settings in the registry in all OSs.

Beatsleigher said:
C++ isn#'t my kinda thing, as you can't natively create GUIs in it. You always need some kind of library for that sort of stuff.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Lolwhat?

Beatsleigher said:
C++ isn#'t my kinda thing, as you can't natively create GUIs in it. You always need some kind of library for that sort of stuff..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Errm, those libraries are written in C or C++... native code such as C and C++ are the only languages which can create GUI's. VB.net/C#/anything else .NET use libraries too which in the case of WinForms and WPF are just wrappers around win32 functionality implemented in C.

Beatsleigher said:
And yes, it does sound like you think it's a bad license. But meh. Everyone has their own opinion, I guess.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I love the GPL. I use it for everything (except libraries).
But I'll stop the off-topic now.