Develop Bugs

[Q] Remove carrier branding without rooting

Hi, new to this forum and relatively new to Android as well. I've searched and read through google and the forum, but not able to find an answer to my specific question.
I'm in the UK, and recently bought a HTC One M8 that was previously locked to O2 but now unlocked and using it on Three. The phone has carrier branding - O2 startup and shut down animations. The phone to my knowledge has never been rooted. I'm on 4.4.3 and software version 2.22.206.6.
I would like to remove the carrier branding and still remain unrooted/ untampered etc (due to work email integration restrictions in my company). I currently do get OTA updates but not sure if getting from HTC or O2. I would preferably like to get OTA from HTC direct in future and skip O2 as it's supposed to be quicker.
My questions:
Is software version same as firmware?
I assume that to remove the carrier branding, I'll have to flash the ROM. I've read that I don't need root to do this. But what exactly would I need to do? Appreciate if a guru could point me in the right direction.
I've read articles that mention stock recovery. Is my recovery "stock" if the phone has carrier branding? My assumption is stock refers to the vanilla version if buying from HTC directly. I don't know if O2 packages the phone with a custom recovery?
Thanks in advance.

No. You need root (aka... disabled write protection) to alter sysyem files, which the bootlogo is one of.

halfwaymark said:
I would like to remove the carrier branding and still remain unrooted/ untampered etc (due to work email integration restrictions in my company).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't have that problem... Can't keep my phone that I paid for the way I want i.e Tampered, unlocked, fun ...Then keep the e-mails, I got better things to do in my time at home. If you want me to get it away from my work place then don't give me crap like "integration policies", if that's an issue supply me with a company paid phone.
I assume that to remove the carrier branding, I'll have to flash the ROM. I've read that I don't need root to do this. But what exactly would I need to do? Appreciate if a guru could point me in the right direction.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You need to have your bootloader unlocked to flash ROMs. The moment you unlock it and flash a custom recovery is the moment your phone shows "Tampered", no more emails for you then
I've read articles that mention stock recovery. Is my recovery "stock" if the phone has carrier branding? My assumption is stock refers to the vanilla version if buying from HTC directly. I don't know if O2 packages the phone with a custom recovery?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Stock recovery refers to the recovery that comes with the phone when you bought it. Custom recoveries are like TWRP/Philz. If you haven't done any changes to the phone and you bought it new from the store then you still have stock recovery. Whether the carrier made changes to it(doubt it though) or not is irrelevant as it's stock to the device(as bought) and not custom build by 3rd parties so to speak.

The only way I see, if you want to have an M8 without carrier branding to fit your companies security policies is to unlock bootloader and S-Off, change CID/MID, flash HTC stock ROM and firmware and then lock bootloader, remove tempered flag, and go S-On again.
It's some work to do in any case, but if your done your phone will be stock HTC WWE.
On the other hand I got a company paid phone as well, after I told them not to accept their company "security and integration policies" with respect to my private paid M8. I told them that if they wanted me to get my business mails on my private M8, they just had to accept the fact that with my property I'm gonna do what I like to do with it.

HTCNerdYoda said:
The only way I see, if you want to have an M8 without carrier branding to fit you companies security policies is to unlock bootloader and S-Off, change CID/MID, flash HTC stock ROM and firmware and then lock bootloader, remove tempered flag, and go S-On again.
It's some work to do in any case, but if your done your phone will be stock HTC WWE.
On the other hand I got a company paid phone as well, after I told them not to accept their company "security and integration policies" with respect to my private paid M8. I told them that if they wanted me to get my business mails on my private M8, they just had to accept the fact that with my property I'm gonna do what I like to do with it.
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Click to collapse
Exactly, if they paid and gave the phone, it's something entirely different. If you pay for it and they still want to enforce crap like that, it's almost the same as expecting you to buy a car(with your money) so that you can go on business trips for them. If you "pimp" out YOUR ride with a turbo and some amazing sound system, they refuse to have you do your job because your car is contrary to their "health and safety" policies. They can then take that job and shove it

There is a workaround for that problem when rooted exchange bypass security I think it's called you can you xposed or its built into some roms

HTCNerdYoda said:
change CID/MID
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Click to collapse
Thanks for your reply. As a noob, I understand most of your post other than this. What CID/MID should I change to?

the CID/MID has to be changed as they are checked by the OTA update server, thus you have to have one that fits the OS and firmware, for the update to be installed. So e.g. if you want to unbranded your One M8 you got to change CID to an original HTC-CID as well
After I gained S-Off, I changed to CID HTC__001 (HTC carrier ID - had a T-MOB CID before) as well as MID 0P6B10000. This is one of the WWE combinations. As soon I had done this I went on installing the WWE Backup 2.22.401.5 as well as the corresponding firmware. Thus I receive updates as soon as they get released by HTC, and haven't to wait for the carrier to approve it in the one hand, and don't have any T-Mobile bloatware or changes to the OS on the other hand. Just pure HTC Stock.
Sent from my HTC One_M8 using XDA Free mobile app

Hey guys, I've asked this question in several places so far with no luck, was wondering if you would be kind enough to help please?
I have an unlocked htc m8 cid 2___001 running 1.54.206.10, I have a constant nag of an ota update that I can't install (rooted) I want to ideally unroot and flash back to it's original state - can't find cid 2___001 nor 1.54.20.10 anywhere OR install a custom rom and firmware.
I've downloaded several firmwares including the popular 2.22.401.5 amongst others, but none take as I'm told they are the wrong version. I assume the cid is the issue? Any ideas how I can get around this please? I'm totally stuck now and getting any help is almost impossible, sadly.
Thank you in advance.

New to M8, first HTC device since Hero, some newbie help

Reading some scary things that I want confirmed and also want some advice
Getting S off costs $25? Rooted and unlocked countless phones across Moto, Samsung. etc and never had to pay a dime. If there is a paywall, what can one do with a locked boot?
also. can band 2 really not be unlocked?
2. Marshmallow GPE. Do I need root or can I flash via stock recovery or PC app?
3. General recommended ROM. Stay stock or is there a true MM stable 100% ROM of choice?
Other than that I am happy with the device. Mind blown by what $100 got me

againareku said:
Reading some scary things that I want confirmed and also want some advice
Getting S off costs $25? Rooted and unlocked countless phones across Moto, Samsung. etc and never had to pay a dime. If there is a paywall, what can one do with a locked boot?
also. can band 2 really not be unlocked?
2. Marshmallow GPE. Do I need root or can I flash via stock recovery or PC app?
3. General recommended ROM. Stay stock or is there a true MM stable 100% ROM of choice?
Other than that I am happy with the device. Mind blown by what $100 got me
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1. No need for S-off if you want to flash roms/kernels. What band 2 can't be unlocked?
2. You can flash GPE rom or you can convert ur device to GPE(needs S-off)
3. Plenty of them, we have few sense 8 roms out there, Srom is 100% port of the HTC 10 and bunch of cmte/aosp roms as well.

Imotep95 said:
1. No need for S-off if you want to flash roms/kernels. What band 2 can't be unlocked?
2. You can flash GPE rom or you can convert ur device to GPE(needs S-off)
3. Plenty of them, we have few sense 8 roms out there, Srom is 100% port of the HTC 10 and bunch of cmte/aosp roms as well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Band 2 lte apparently can't be enabled on tmo variant, won't stick by changing nv values according to the thread here
thanks for the help though, got a fun night ahead of me

1. S-off isn't needed for many folks. As mentioned above, you can root, flash ROMs, kernels, and lots of other mods just by unlocking the bootloader on HTCDev.com, which is a free and pretty easy process.
You'll need s-off if you want to flash a modified hboot, manually flash radios, change to another version (change CID and MID), and a few other things.
2. You can't flash anything with stock recovery, that isn't intended for your version. But with an unlocked bootloader (and that is the key, you can't mod anything with the bootloader locked), you can flash custom recovery, and flash a GPE based ROM from the Development section.
againareku said:
Band 2 lte apparently can't be enabled on tmo variant, won't stick by changing nv values according to the thread here
thanks for the help though, got a fun night ahead of me
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
LTE Band 2? You need to be specific when talking about bands (3G or LTE). I'll assume LTE Band 2. The nv value mod only works on the Sprint and Verizon (CDMA) variants. To change band support (if you need Band 2 on your carrier), you'll need to flash a radio baseband for a version that supports the desired band. And to do that you'll need s-off.
---------- Post added at 09:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:30 AM ----------
Imotep95 said:
2. You can flash GPE rom or you can convert ur device to GPE(needs S-off)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To clarify this statement, s-off is only needed if you want to "fully convert" to the GPE version by RUU (makes it essentially a fully stock GPE phone in terms of software). The only advantage to this, is if you want the GPE partition scheme (smaller system partition, which results in more user storage) and official GPE updates. The downside, is that you can no longer install Sense ROMs (system partition is too small) unless you convert back. Plus, it will also give you the band support of the GPE version (which does not include LTE band 2 that you are apparently looking for).
In any case, as mentioned, you don't need to "fully convert" to run a GPE ROM. Just flash a GPE based ROM (after unlocking bootloader and installing custom recovery).

Can Nougat work on AT&T model

Can Nougat work on AT&T any roms. im getting a phone soon and im hoping i can get other than Marshmallow on my phone. Can someone direct me the steps to do this please?

Any of the ROMs in the "generic/international" M8 development sections will work on the AT&T version. There is no hardware difference between the models. Just stay away from ROMs intended for Sprint and Verizon.
When you receive the phone, you'll want to confirm it's on Marshmallow firmware (and if not, update to MM). Then unlock the bootloader via HTCDev.com, install current TWRP 3.1. Then you can flash any ROM you like (as long as it meets the description already mentioned above).
Looks like you're pretty experienced on these forums (other devices), so may be familiar with some/all of these steps. But if not, or you have any specific questions, let us know and we'll be happy to help further.

redpoint73 said:
Any of the ROMs in the "generic/international" M8 development sections will work on the AT&T version. There is no hardware difference between the models. Just stay away from ROMs intended for Sprint and Verizon.
When you receive the phone, you'll want to confirm it's on Marshmallow firmware (and if not, update to MM). Then unlock the bootloader via HTCDev.com, install current TWRP 3.1. Then you can flash any ROM you like (as long as it meets the description already mentioned above).
Looks like you're pretty experienced on these forums (other devices), so may be familiar with some/all of these steps. But if not, or you have any specific questions, let us know and we'll be happy to help further.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sunshine not required?

cell2011 said:
Sunshine not required?
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Click to collapse
Sunshine not required. S-off is only needed for certain things, like changing the phone's CID/MID, flashing modified hboots, "downgrading" firmware/RUU, SIM unlock.
For most mods, such as root, flashing ROMs (Nougat ROMs included), custom kernels, etc. all you need is an unlocked bootloader and custom recovery TWRP.

redpoint73 said:
Sunshine not required. S-off is only needed for certain things, like changing the phone's CID/MID, flashing modified hboots, "downgrading" firmware/RUU, SIM unlock.
For most mods, such as root, flashing ROMs (Nougat ROMs included), custom kernels, etc. all you need is an unlocked bootloader and custom recovery TWRP.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok thanks yea thisphone im getting has never been touched meaning rooted or modified probably not even on MM yet. So i should be good to go just update to MM unlock BL and twrp?

My guess is you're buying a carrier unlocked phone? Here is a good thread I started and should answer all your questions.
https://forum.xda-developers.com/htc-one-m8/help/carrier-unlocked-gsm-m8-t3598115

theandies said:
My guess is you're buying a carrier unlocked phone? Here is a good thread I started and should answer all your questions.
https://forum.xda-developers.com/htc-one-m8/help/carrier-unlocked-gsm-m8-t3598115
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Im sorry i should have been more clearer in my title it will be a US AT&T M8

cell2011 said:
Im sorry i should have been more clearer in my title it will be a US AT&T M8
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
:good: Should still help. When I bought the phone in that thread a few weeks ago on ammmmmmmozon it was advertised as a GSM network phone which AT&T is. I'm on AT&T and it was easy to unlock the bootloader through HTCdev and flash TWRP and custom ROM's and Kernels. As you stated it will probably not be on the latest firmware so you probably have OTA before doing anything. If OTA dosen't work then you'll have to RUU to get on the latest AT&T firmware before unlocking and installing TWRP.
The one think I've had issues with is network speed meaning it indicates HSPA (3G+ speeds) and not 4g or 4g LTE. I've tried all the latest APN's for AT&T's network but still can only get indicated HSPA speeds. This is on an old SIM card and I've not gone to the AT&T store to pick up a new one to see if that is my problem. My SIM is the original one I got when I bought my first M8 shortly after launch in 2014.
I'm currently running LeeDroid (Android 6.0 HTC Sense 7.0) ROM and tomorrow I'm going to try DarkNess reDefined which is Nougut based.
ROM Darkness Redefined

Yes I was told to update to mm and then unlock​ BL and then twrp and root

theandies said:
As you stated it will probably not be on the latest firmware so you probably have to unlock and RUU upgrade before doing anything
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Click to collapse
This is one wrong advise.
OP just needs to OTA update to the latest. If using RUU to upgrade, need a Locked bootloader for S-On device.
Previous advise by @redpoint73 is correct.
After all the firmware is updated to the latest, then only unlock bootloader then install latest TWRP and OP is ready to install custom ROM including Nougat.
---------- Post added at 05:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:27 AM ----------
cell2011 said:
Yes I was told to update to mm and then unlock​ BL and then twrp and root
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is correct.
Only thing is you don't need to root because custom ROM is pre-rooted.
You root only if you want a rooted stock ROM

ckpv5 said:
This is one wrong advise.
OP just needs to OTA update to the latest. If using RUU to upgrade, need a Locked bootloader for S-On device.
Previous advise by @redpoint73 is correct.
After all the firmware is updated to the latest, then only unlock bootloader then install latest TWRP and OP is ready to install custom ROM including Nougat.
---------- Post added at 05:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:27 AM ----------
This is correct.
Only thing is you don't need to root because custom ROM is pre-rooted.
You root only if you want a rooted stock ROM
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If it's a true AT&T phone then yes, just OTA first and foremost. If OTA doesn't work then he'll have to go the RUU route. Once the firmware is up to date (either RUU or OTA) with the latest AT&T then unlock bootloader and install TWRP. I've edited my response as to not confuse. My bad, I just re-read my responce and it didn't come out the way I wanted it to. Guess that's why I'm not an English major..........

Yes this will be an At&t phone not just Sim

cell2011 said:
Yes this will be an At&t phone not just Sim
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Best thing to do, when you get the phone, is do fastboot getvar all, and post the results (delete IMEI and serial number before posting). We can take a look, and remove all doubt about the carrier version, whether the firmware needs to be updated, etc.

How to convert/change HTC One M8 Verizon ROM to Unbranded Official Stock ROM?

Hi,
I recently purchased a HTC One M8 Verizon here in Brazil and want to know how to change/convert/remove completely the Verizon ROM to a Unbranded Official Stock ROM?! I searched all over Google/xda and found absolutely nothing concrete about this.
I only want the Stock Official ROM, not interested in any Custom ROM due to the difficulty to install and also instability.
Anyone help me?
Thanks and sorry for my bad english.

I can tell you concrete that you should not attempt to "fully convert" to any other version by flashing another version's RUU or firmware. Other firmware/RUUs are not compatible with the Verizon version, it won't work, and it can possibly result in a permanent radio brick!
So that pretty much excludes any fully "official" ROM/RUU.
Your only option then is to s-off the phone by sunshine ($25 US) since the Verizon version can not be bootloader unlocked via HTCDev.com. Then you can unlock the bootloader, flash custom recovery TWRP, and flash a stock-ish ROM that meets your needs and preferences. You will also need to make sure you use a ROM that supports the Verizon variant, since it uses a different kernel from most other M8 vesions.
In short, the Verizon version (along with Sprint) are the worst M8 version for any folks outside of customers on those actual carriers (Verizon and Sprint) in the US. The Verizon version is especially bad, since unlocking the bootloader by HTCDev.com is blocked.
---------- Post added at 10:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:48 AM ----------
Heavyweight_inc said:
I only want the Stock Official ROM, not interested in any Custom ROM due to the difficulty to install and also instability.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You won't be able to install another M8 version's stock RUU, as already mentioned. So a TWRP-flashable ROM is your only choice (besides staying stock Verizon).
Also, your misgivings about the instability of custom ROMs is incorrect, and not based on any reason evidence. There are plenty of stable custom ROMs, which also make the phone more functional by removing useless carrier bloat, and remove carrier restrictions like the tethering block.

redpoint73 said:
I can tell you concrete that you should not attempt to "fully convert" to any other version by flashing another version's RUU or firmware. Other firmware/RUUs are not compatible with the Verizon version, it won't work, and it can possibly result in a permanent radio brick!
So that pretty much excludes any fully "official" ROM/RUU.
Your only option then is to s-off the phone by sunshine ($25 US) since the Verizon version can not be bootloader unlocked via HTCDev.com. Then you can unlock the bootloader, flash custom recovery TWRP, and flash a stock-ish ROM that meets your needs and preferences. You will also need to make sure you use a ROM that supports the Verizon variant, since it uses a different kernel from most other M8 vesions.
In short, the Verizon version (along with Sprint) are the worst M8 version for any folks outside of customers on those actual carriers (Verizon and Sprint) in the US. The Verizon version is especially bad, since unlocking the bootloader by HTCDev.com is blocked.
---------- Post added at 10:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:48 AM ----------
You won't be able to install another M8 version's stock RUU, as already mentioned. So a TWRP-flashable ROM is your only choice (besides staying stock Verizon).
Also, your misgivings about the instability of custom ROMs is incorrect, and not based on any reason evidence. There are plenty of stable custom ROMs, which also make the phone more functional by removing useless carrier bloat, and remove carrier restrictions like the tethering block.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for repply!
I totally regretted buying this smartphone!!!
Now, what's the best thing to do? Where do I start?
The issue of not wanting a "Custom ROM" is that I hate the tweaks that have to be done to get install and stable and also do not want to lose the look and functions of HTC Sense. What ROM most clean, simple to install and sense visual based do u recommend for me?
Anyway, any rom I install will have to pay the $ 25.00 to unlock via Sunshine? Why dont have this for Free?
Thanks!

Heavyweight_inc said:
Now, what's the best thing to do? Where do I start?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You should start by reading, researching, and learning. It's apparent that you are missing a lot of knowledge about this device, in particular the Verizon version.
In fact, such research would have prevented the mistake of buying the Verizon version M8, in the first place.
From there (after reading and learning) you will need to do kingroot to get root, then sunshine s-off, unlock bootloader. Then you can install TWRP and flash a custom ROM.
Heavyweight_inc said:
The issue of not wanting a "ROM Stock" is that I hate the tweaks that have to be done to get install and stable and also do not want to lose the look and functions of HTC Sense. What ROM most clean, simple to install and sense visual based do u recommend for me?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your "hate" of the tweaks is misplaced. Even on a non-Verizon device, in order to install another version's official ROM, you would need s-off (which requires root) and to change CID. So even to change to a stock ROM, takes significant modifications. But again, do not attempt to do this on your Verizon device; as doing so is dangerous.
You are also not understanding the concept of custom ROMs properly. A custom ROM can still be Sense based. It's only the AOSP ROMs (Lineage, Resurrection Remix, etc.) and the Google Play Edition (GPE) ROMs which do not contain the Sense features and look.
There are a number of Verizon-compatible Sense custom ROMs, which are stable and quite good, including Viper, S.ROM, Wolla, and others.
Heavyweight_inc said:
Anyway, any rom I install will have to pay the $ 25.00 to unlock via Sunshine? Why dont have this for Free?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Unfortunately, for the Verizon version (and only the Verizon version) you need s-off in order to unlock the bootloader (which is required in order to flash custom recovery TWRP and flash ROMs). And sunshine is the only currently working method for s-off.
On most all other versions of the M8 (except Verizon) you can unlock the bootloader through HTCDev.com, which costs no money. You can thank Verizon for having this feature blocked.
As to why sunshine costs money, they developers have contributed lots of work to XDA, previously only working for donations. But they spent hundreds of hours working on sunshine, and bricked several devices in the process. Charging for s-off is simply so they can recoup there loses. If you ask "why isn't it free" then I ask you, would you do all that for free?
You may not like it, but it is what it is. You can search and read if you want to learn more about this topic. But it has literally been argued on both sides for dozens and dozens of forum pages. There is no complaint you can make about this, that hasn't already been made before.

HELP!
I think I have the same problem, Can any one guide me or give me somewhere to learn and help my self??

Ahmedyasssen said:
I think I have the same problem, Can any one guide me or give me somewhere to learn and help my self??
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You should explain your problem in detail, not just say you have the "same problem".
I already explained to the OP, that trying to "fully convert" with stock RUU will brick the phone.

Unlocked VZW update

So I have an unlocked HTC 10. a while back I managed to do all the good stuff to make it work with Verizon. I don't remember all of the things I did, but safe to say the needed things for it work on Verizon through the #*#*4636*#*# menu. Fast forward a year later, I'm still on 6.0.1 and I would like to know how I can go to the latest and greatest update from Android while being able to connect to the Verizon signal. I haven't kept up with anything from here so pardon my lack of knowledge.

Xeazlouro said:
So I have an unlocked HTC 10. a while back I managed to do all the good stuff to make it work with Verizon. I don't remember all of the things I did, but safe to say the needed things for it work on Verizon through the #*#*4636*#*# menu. Fast forward a year later, I'm still on 6.0.1 and I would like to know how I can go to the latest and greatest update from Android while being able to connect to the Verizon signal. I haven't kept up with anything from here so pardon my lack of knowledge.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So you must be s-off in that case and you simply flashed the Verizon radios, right?
You can probably update your unlocked 10 to the latest software, and then redo the steps you originally did to get it to work on verizon.
To update:
If you were never rooted and didn't ever modify your system partition, make sure you have stock recovery and take the OTA update.
If you are rooted, but have an untouched system backup on hand, restore it as well as stock recovery and then take the OTA.
If you are rooted with no backup, or if the above options fail, the easiest and cleanest way is to backup your phone contents and run the latest Nougat ruu which will bring you to fully stock and updated.
Other option, since you're s-off, is to flash the OTA "manually" with twrp and through fastboot. Look for instructions in the twrp thread faq.

Tarima said:
So you must be s-off in that case and you simply flashed the Verizon radios, right?
If you are rooted with no backup, or if the above options fail, the easiest and cleanest way is to backup your phone contents and run the latest Nougat ruu which will bring you to fully stock and updated.
Other option, since you're s-off, is to flash the OTA "manually" with twrp and through fastboot. Look for instructions in the twrp thread faq.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No. To convert US Unlocked to VZW we had to manually set the CID and then run the Verizon RUU. If we flash the latest N RUU, I don't think that'll work on VZW. Last I checked (which was last fall TBH) VZW was on a different and older branch than the Unlocked latest head codeline. We should be able to run the latest VZQ RUU assuming someone has made one. I'm also looking for this. I'll update this post if I find it.

drumz0rz said:
No. To convert US Unlocked to VZW we had to manually set the CID and then run the Verizon RUU. If we flash the latest N RUU, I don't think that'll work on VZW. Last I checked (which was last fall TBH) VZW was on a different and older branch than the Unlocked latest head codeline. We should be able to run the latest VZQ RUU assuming someone has made one. I'm also looking for this. I'll update this post if I find it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Where does the OP say he converted to VZW variant?
There are two ways to get unlocked to work on VZW, one is to flash just the modem and the other is a full Vzw conversion. Based on the fact he states he had to go into the secret menu, my guess is that it was the former which is why I asked....
FYI latest vzw ruu can be found on the Verizon HTC 10 forums.
https://forum.xda-developers.com/verizon-htc-10/how-to/verizon-official-ruu-1-19-605-9-t3377586

Interesting, didn't know you could get VZW to work without the full conversion. That was the route I went, and despite it, my phone still shows up on Verzion as a 'Non Verizon Device' (Everything works though). Thanks for the link to the RUU though!