Develop Bugs

Lot of noise in every 2-3 images with zoom

Hello. Is it normal that there is lot of noise in photos taken with zoom, but only sometimes? Can you please take several same photos one by one in zoom 4x in low light conditions in auto mode? Do all images have the same amount of noise? Images from my phone sometimes are very noisy. They should look the same I think. Please take a look on below photos. There is big difference, but I don't see difference in photos taken without zoom. It looks like auto mode changes some settings very aggressively. :/

kozakis01 said:
Hello. Is it normal that there is lot of noise in photos taken with zoom, but only sometimes? Can you please take several same photos one by one in zoom 4x in low light conditions in auto mode? Do all images have the same amount of noise? Images from my phone sometimes are very noisy. They should look the same I think. Please take a look on below photos. There is big difference, but I don't see difference in photos taken without zoom. It looks like auto mode changes some settings very aggressively. :/
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Anyone?

Well, you took low-light shots and zoomed. The zoom is only digital and won't do anything. It's better to leave zooming and enlarge the area of preference later by a photo-editing program at your PC or laptop.
Keep in mind: High ISO + zooming = Noisy pictures. Keep your ISO as low as possible and like I said: Avoid zooming - at least in darkened areas.

MickyFoley said:
Well, you took low-light shots and zoomed. The zoom is only digital and won't do anything. It's better to leave zooming and enlarge the area of preference later by a photo-editing program at your PC or laptop.
Keep in mind: High ISO + zooming = Noisy pictures. Keep your ISO as low as possible and like I said: Avoid zooming - at least in darkened areas.
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Ok, but some images taken in the same conditions are noisy and other are not. It looks like noise reduction doesn't work sometimes at all. Is noise reduction working also in manual mode? I have always noise in this mode (in auto only sometimes).

In some cases, even the best noise-reduction can't help. It only would result in a blurry image at the very end. Like I said: Keep ISO as low as possible & yes: In manual-mode, this value can be fixed. The phone itself sets the automo-iso for each image at other modes & maybe checks a darker spot sometimes. The result is a noisier image.

MickyFoley said:
In some cases, even the best noise-reduction can't help. It only would result in a blurry image at the very end. Like I said: Keep ISO as low as possible & yes: In manual-mode, this value can be fixed. The phone itself sets the automo-iso for each image at other modes & maybe checks a darker spot sometimes. The result is a noisier image.
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Does noise reduction work also in manual mode? I can't get good results in manual mode in lowlight, because there is lot of noise in each iso/shutter speed settings. It seems like noise reduction doesn't work in manual mode.

kozakis01 said:
Does noise reduction work also in manual mode? I can't get good results in manual mode in lowlight, because there is lot of noise in each iso/shutter speed settings. It seems like noise reduction doesn't work in manual mode.
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In auto, lg G4 will activate night mode in low light condition,,you can check there's no iso value in that shots.

@faizalotai: Do this by yourself and view your photo with any EXIF editor or viewer. You'll see, the phone for sure changes ISO values in every, except manual mode.

MickyFoley said:
@faizalotai: Do this by yourself and view your photo with any EXIF editor or viewer. You'll see, the phone for sure changes ISO values in every, except manual mode.
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I figured out that around 1 from 10 photos is destroyed by noise. It doesn't has to be photo taken with zoom, but when I zoom in this photo there is lot of noise. Can you check yours G4?

I guess, I should link you to informations about sensors and ISO-values then . Get a look here: https://www.objc.io/issues/21-camera-and-photos/how-your-camera-works/

RAW/DNG....can the Redmi Note 8 do this with 48MP?

Can the Redmi Note 8 do RAW/DNG with 48MP?
Thanks!

With the note 8T I can shoot raw with the 48MP sensor using open camera, and using camera2 api in the app settings.

Sorry for being a dumbo..but why shoot in RAW..what's the advantage

russy23 said:
Sorry for being a dumbo..but why shoot in RAW..what's the advantage
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Not knowing is not being dumb.
Basically, any sensor sends RAW data to the camera app, then the app does some magic (adjusting exposure, colors, details, reducing noise) and gives you a ready to use jpeg: that is what does the xiaomi camera app.
Shooting raw allows you to save the RAW data, and do the magic yourself in a RAW editing software like Adobe Lightroom.
Editing a jpeg image doesn't allow a lot of modification of the image: if you're not happy with the magic the camera app did, there is not really much you can do about it.
Shooting and editing RAW is more time consuming, there is a learning curve, and the result is not instant: you have to edit the RAW. But usually the result is better than the automatic magic from the camera app: you have more room when adjusting shadows, highlights, colors, geometry, lens issues like chromatic aberration, and noise reduction software or plugins all do a better job than any camera app.

modryke said:
Not knowing is not being dumb.
Basically, any sensor sends RAW data to the camera app, then the app does some magic (adjusting exposure, colors, details, reducing noise) and gives you a ready to use jpeg: that is what does the xiaomi camera app.
Shooting raw allows you to save the RAW data, and do the magic yourself in a RAW editing software like Adobe Lightroom.
Editing a jpeg image doesn't allow a lot of modification of the image: if you're not happy with the magic the camera app did, there is not really much you can do about it.
Shooting and editing RAW is more time consuming, there is a learning curve, and the result is not instant: you have to edit the RAW. But usually the result is better than the automatic magic from the camera app: you have more room when adjusting shadows, highlights, colors, geometry, lens issues like chromatic aberration, and noise reduction software or plugins all do a better job than any camera app.
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Well said :good: and informative, not only to RAW dumbo but to most ...

Cool..thanks for answering

I have to add a correction.
I thought I could capture 48MP RAW image with open camera. It turns out the raws are only 3984 x 2984 (11.8MP).

12MPix DNG are better quality than "48Pix" JPG from Xiaomi Camera
modryke said:
I have to add a correction.
I thought I could capture 48MP RAW image with open camera. It turns out the raws are only 3984 x 2984 (11.8MP).
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Since the "48Mpix" chip is kind of PR bull****. When zoomed to 100 % on the JPEGs shoot at so-called 48Mpix the details are hardly better than the same photo on the default 16Mpix.
DNG files produced by Google Camera, after processed with the modified DCR to get reasonable colours in Adobe Camera RAW / Lightroom Classic, can even with the "just 12Mpix" resolution create so sharp pictures that it does not make sense trying to get something more out of it. Yes, perhaps the chip natively has the megapixels but I think based on the close look at the Xiaomi photos that the 48Pix is a hype calculated by using all the RGBG subpixels as if it was a "real" pixel, then the app does some magic in the sense of making 4 pictures in a row (similar to how the HDR mode works) and then extrapolates the resolution out of 4 16MPix photos.

Camera and image file sizes and formats?

Folks;
being on an M51 using stock ROM, OpenCamera and stock Samsung camera, I am a bit lost figuring out how to use the cameras well. Two pecularities come to attention:
Samsung camera apparently has a way to set a 16:9 12MP image mode (4624x2604) whereas in OpenCamera the maximum 16:9 resolution is 3840x2160 (8.2 MP).
In OpenCamera, the 8.2 MP images (set to maximum JPG quality) have a size of apprx 2MB each, which seems reasonable. However, using Samsung stock camera set to 4624x2604, image files are close to 7.5MB which seems extremely huge for a JPG compressed image file even at best quality.
Does anyone have insights or ideas what the Samsung app does here what OpenCamera isn't capable of doing?
Thanks in advance and all the best,
Kristian

Samsung camera probably uses full resolution images and crops the view, maybe to align images? Open camera uses 90% jpeg quality by default, which has minimal impact in image quality but still produce more artifacts. You can set it to 100% in photo settings.

Makes sense, thanks. I'll play around a bit with the cameras and different resolutions and compare results. Mostly I'm a bit confused, too, because my previous device used to have bigger (file size) images while shooting with the same resolution, and I wonder whether "more bits" means "better quality" at this point (or just "more noise"). Already did set OpenCamera to 100%, just to be sure. Unfortunately, a bunch of modes (like the 64MP mode or that 16:9 12MP mode) aren't even available in OpenCamera. The tool still needs getting used to.

Question Question about photo image size

Hi guys, I have a problem regarding Pixel 6Pro photo image size. not sure if any of you might have already noticed.
Image size of my previous Pixel 4XL is generally around 3-4MB. However the image size of Pixel 6 Pro is generally around 2-3MB. Photos taken from both phones are in 4:3 with full resolutions in Google Camera settings.
One more interesting discovery is, once I make any tiny adjustment in edit mode (e.g. increase brightness by 1), the photo size is immediately boosted up to 8-10MB from a photo having original size of around 3MB. Also, I found that the image is not very detailed when I take a steady picture of flower under great weather, when compared to iPhone 13 Pro. Lots of details of the flowers are lost.
I personally expect and indeed prefer having the larger image size right after capturing, as it might theoretically include finer image details.

Hi @junocaj. You can always enable JPG+RAW saving in Advanced Settings, although from my understanding, working with RAW files really requires a lot of professional work, as by default it won't look as good as the JPG (or other image formats - not that there's a choice for other formats with the Google Camera app).
You can also try a different camera app and see if you like the results better, although the Google Camera app will likely have new features from time to time that gives it some advantages. It all depends on what you, as a user, want the most out of your camera app.

@roirraW "edor" ehT . Yeah, I understand that can enable JPG+RAW for professional photo editing.
just that I am a little confused on why the image size of a 3MB picture can be boosted up to 8-10MB right after a super minor editing. It appears to me that the picture size is originally 8-10MB, just that for some reason it is compressed down to 3MB, even I have set the resolution to be full resolution in settings.
Ain't sure if the details of the picture is erased by such compression by the AI. The reason I raised this observation was that one day I used iPhone 13Pro to take a picture at the same spot together with P6P, iPhone output a jpg of around 10MB directly, and lots of details is maintained, while the picture of P6P is around 2-3MB.

@junocaj As to the smaller size of the original file, it could be a change in the JPEG compression they use. Sometimes only lowering the JPEG compression value by a little bit results in a much smaller size while still looking good. Also, the AI possibility as you mention - i.e. maybe on the P6P the Google Camera app is able to routinely save JPEGs at the same compression setting as on previous Pixels but with AI work is still able to reduce the size.
There are several possibilities for the change in size. The new file could be including the editing steps you took - so that you can restore the original. It could also be keeping the edited file in a less compressed state for some reason.
All that above is just speculation on my part.
Sizes of image files definitely aren't the final determination in quality, either. Even a PNG file (not talking about on the phone) can be optimized and take up a lot less space while losing zero data compared to the original file.

I have noticed this too. The P6pros pictures are heavily compressed. I have pictures from my Nexus 6p and pixel 2 that are larger size with fewer artifacts.
One way was to use a Gcam mod that has jpeg picture size selection. At 100% quality the jpegs are 8-13MB. This really does help with details.

86rickard said:
I have noticed this too. The P6pros pictures are heavily compressed. I have pictures from my Nexus 6p and pixel 2 that are larger size with fewer artifacts.
One way was to use a Gcam mod that has jpeg picture size selection. At 100% quality the jpegs are 8-13MB. This really does help with details.
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@86rickard would you mind sharing where could I get this gcam mod?

I'm guessing Google have set the compression around 80%, mine are always 2.5MB to 4.5MB dependant on how many colours are in the image, very similar to the size they were from my Pixel 5 which given the image is all but the same size isn't a surprise.
I have never understood why all the phone makers cant just include a compression slider and let the user choose. Re-editing a compressed photo and resaving it and it being significantly bigger is par for the course, that's nothing new.
All that said i cant say my photos are absolutely terrible or full of artefacts even after Google Photos has compressed them even further.

junocaj said:
@86rickard would you mind sharing where could I get this gcam mod?
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MWP GCam APKs - Google Camera Port
Modified Google Camera app by MWP.
www.celsoazevedo.com

MrBelter said:
I'm guessing Google have set the compression around 80%, mine are always 2.5MB to 4.5MB dependant on how many colours are in the image, very similar to the size they were from my Pixel 5 which given the image is all but the same size isn't a surprise.
I have never understood why all the phone makers cant just include a compression slider and let the user choose. Re-editing a compressed photo and resaving it and it being significantly bigger is par for the course, that's nothing new.
All that said i cant say my photos are absolutely terrible or full of artefacts even after Google Photos has compressed them even further.
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Playing with the gcam mod above its about 30-50%. Depending on the details in the image. It looks like the camera app is choosing a compression rate based on details too.
Needless to say in low light, noise reduction and jpeg compression make for a poor image.

@86rickard Great! thanks very much!
Found that the latest version that have the JPG quality option is the Gcam_8.3.252_V2.0_MWP one. Perfect to have the uncompressed output! I will try it out more comparing this mod against the stock gcam, lovely.
86rickard said:
MWP GCam APKs - Google Camera Port
Modified Google Camera app by MWP.
www.celsoazevedo.com
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

junocaj said:
@86rickard Great! thanks very much!
Found that the latest version that have the JPG quality option is the Gcam_8.3.252_V2.0_MWP one. Perfect to have the uncompressed output! I will try it out more comparing this mod against the stock gcam, lovely.
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the MWP Pixel gcam mod is great (use the first non-beta in the list)
You can force higher quality and HDR+ enhanced (and also change the custom libs option to MWP_xHDR in Mod Settings). this mod is a gamechanger for the 6 series.

I wonder how long it will be before they start sending cease and desist letters to distributors of these hacked versions of gcam like they did for utube?
Another option besides these that will work for a lot of people, is to use alternate camera software. GrapheneOS Camera, for example, works very well. Its not as "feature rich" as gcam maybe, but the default compression is less, and you can override the default by specifying a jpeg quality level.

my p6 pro is my first pixel. i noticed something that might answer your question. when you save a photo after editing it, the default is to save with the ability to revert to original. if you select save as a copy, the original data is not included in the file.

96carboard said:
I wonder how long it will be before they start sending cease and desist letters to distributors of these hacked versions of gcam like they did for utube?
Another option besides these that will work for a lot of people, is to use alternate camera software. GrapheneOS Camera, for example, works very well. Its not as "feature rich" as gcam maybe, but the default compression is less, and you can override the default by specifying a jpeg quality level.
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Yeah I think the issue with YouTube was the lack of ads Google was losing money on. There are no ads in Gcam but stupid stuff happens and one will never know what a big tech company may do in the future

Alekos said:
the MWP Pixel gcam mod is great (use the first non-beta in the list)
You can force higher quality and HDR+ enhanced (and also change the custom libs option to MWP_xHDR in Mod Settings). this mod is a gamechanger for the 6 series.
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I tried iso and exposure adjustments but it seems that its not working.

86rickard said:
Playing with the gcam mod above its about 30-50%. Depending on the details in the image. It looks like the camera app is choosing a compression rate based on details too.
Needless to say in low light, noise reduction and jpeg compression make for a poor image.
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Well that's low light for you, unless you are letting the phone do its stacking magic sensor noise as the ISO increases will get worse and worse which then makes everything else a problem. Upping the ISO on a digital camera isn't like it was with film, all you are doing is pushing the exposure which then brings any noise and artefacts to in to view, you aren't making anything more sensitive and it isn't doing anything you couldn't do with the exposure slider in an editing package.
I am sure Google will tweak it in the months to come but i'd sure like the option to lower compression in the standard app or better still save night shots as a PNG so there is no banding in the image, maybe it is time to bite the bullet and introduce HEIC.

86rickard said:
MWP GCam APKs - Google Camera Port
Modified Google Camera app by MWP.
www.celsoazevedo.com
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That is a great Camera Mod. I'm not the photographer some of you are, but the options oin this are really nice.

Mangtas_666 said:
I tried iso and exposure adjustments but it seems that its not working.
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HDR+ enhanced has to be enabled. The ISO/exposure adjustment won't work on ZSL (zero shutter lag) aka HDR+. Should work in Night Sight mode as well.

jericho246 said:
HDR+ enhanced has to be enabled. The ISO/exposure adjustment won't work on ZSL (zero shutter lag) aka HDR+. Should work in Night Sight mode as well.
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Thanks for the info Jericho246 i appreciate it.

junocaj said:
Hi guys, I have a problem regarding Pixel 6Pro photo image size. not sure if any of you might have already noticed.
Image size of my previous Pixel 4XL is generally around 3-4MB. However the image size of Pixel 6 Pro is generally around 2-3MB. Photos taken from both phones are in 4:3 with full resolutions in Google Camera settings.
One more interesting discovery is, once I make any tiny adjustment in edit mode (e.g. increase brightness by 1), the photo size is immediately boosted up to 8-10MB from a photo having original size of around 3MB. Also, I found that the image is not very detailed when I take a steady picture of flower under great weather, when compared to iPhone 13 Pro. Lots of details of the flowers are lost.
I personally expect and indeed prefer having the larger image size right after capturing, as it might theoretically include finer image details.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How in the world did you get a photo from pixel 6 pro over 1 MB in size... I took a beautiful full rainbow shot, which looks nice, but when I downloaded it it was only 116 kb in size. Way to small for my tastes. 1036 x 780. Very disappointed and can't find any settings except for higher resolution which is selected.

Question Camera...

Which android version has the best camera quality and stability? Android 12 april or 12L.
Also anyone else experiencing Raw photos are really crap?
Any third party camera apps might be better?

From my understanding, without processing in high-end image software, it's expected that RAW format photos don't look as nice.
Why JPEGs Look Better Than RAW Images | The Best of Scott Kelby's Digital Photography Book Series: Pro Tips for Getting Better Photos | Peachpit
Want to take better photos? Scott Kelby, author of The Best of The Digital Photography Book Series: The step-by-step secrets for how to make your photos look like the pros'!, shares his...
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"Why JPEGs Look Better Than RAW Images"
I know what you’re thinking, “I’ve always heard it’s better to shoot in RAW!” It may be, but I thought you should know why, right out of the camera, JPEG images look better than RAW images. It’s because when you shoot in JPEG mode, your camera applies sharpening, contrast, color saturation, and all sorts of little tweaks to create a fully processed, good-looking final image. However, when you switch your camera to shoot in RAW mode, you’re telling the camera, “Turn off the sharpening, turn off the contrast, turn off the color saturation, and turn off all those tweaks you do to make the image look really good, and instead just give me the raw, untouched photo and I’ll add all those things myself in Photoshop or Lightroom (or whatever software you choose).” So, while RAW files have more data, which is better, the look of the RAW file is not better (it’s not as sharp, or vibrant, or contrasty), so it’s up to you to add all those things in post-processing. Now, if you’re pretty good in Photoshop, Lightroom, etc., the good news is you can probably do a better job tweaking your photo than your camera does when it creates a JPEG, so the final result is photos processed just the way you like them (with the amount of sharpening you want added, the amount of color vibrance you want, etc.). If you just read this and thought, “Man, I don’t even use Photoshop...” or “I don’t really understand Photoshop,” then you’ll probably get better-looking images by shooting in JPEG and letting the camera do the work. I know this goes against everything you’ve read in online forums full of strangers who sound very convincing, but I’ll also bet nobody told you that shooting in RAW strips away all the sharpening, vibrance, and contrast either. Hey, at least now ya know.
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I only shoot raw, because I have used a d-slr for well over 15 years, and photoshop for around 30. It just comes natural. Plus, on the phone, I don't have a lot of control when I'm in a hurry to snap something with the phone, so I can fix it later.

I use both JPG and RAW depending on the use case. RAW files have definitely more information, but they require post processing. I don't mind this since it allows me to make decisions re contrast, white balance, sharpness etc. and not some algorithm.

I only shoot raw when i am doing weddings other than that i always shoot JPEG.
You can do everything with a JPEG that you can do with a raw file you just cant push it as far. Plus when you shoot JPEG as part of the processing the sensor noise will be dealt with.

Why is raw all blocky on my phone then?