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Will "trickle-charge" kernels end up damaging our phones? *UPDATE: 8 CASUALTIES!*
I installed one of these amazing new kernels the other day and loved it. I was even able to keep 100% for about 30 minutes of usage and I was amazed. Yet today I checked Phandroid and an article from an XDA contributer came up:
http://phandroid.com/2010/12/25/you...is-lying-to-you-and-its-not-such-a-bad-thing/
In the article he explained (from what I understand) that he thinks knows it is a GOOD THING that phones aren't programmed to allow the battery to keep charging at the real 100% because it would end up damaging the battery in the end, much like how many of the early cell phone batterys would get damaged.
Until I find out the answer I (sadly) switched back to my old kernel, as I would rather be safe than sorry, at least until I find out for sure.
Any responses?
UPDATES:
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CASUALTY LIST (please PM me any casualties, the list seems to be growing in numbers rapidly)
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Battery Emitting "Smoke" : http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=904577
Battery Failure during Trickle Charge: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=900412
SBC killed my battery: http://forum.androidcentral.com/htc-evo-4g-roms-hacks/51972-sbc-killed-my-battery.html
MIUI + Savage = dead battery http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=10422140&postcount=9 and http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=10432778&postcount=139
ANOTHER dead battery http://forum.androidcentral.com/htc-evo-4g-roms-hacks/51972-sbc-killed-my-battery-2.html#post517436
Battery loses charge after extended time with sbc kernel http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=10431788&postcount=49
Another one bites the dust... http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=10457753&postcount=162
COUNT ME IN http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=10469184&postcount=174
Current Count: 8
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Various Dev Reactions:
Ziggy's editorial on WHY these kernels shouldn't exist and are dangerous (written before the new epidemic of dead batteries):http://www.ziggy471.com/2011/01/02/overcharging-batteries/
Netarchy's post explaining why he's REMOVING all SBC kernels from his page: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=10421166&postcount=6185
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THIS IS A CALL TO ALL ROM/KERNAL DEVELOPERS: Please don't include this feature in our favorite roms. I have been having to switch Kernels on my latest roms becuase I don't want to risk killing my battery (and that is a PAIN)
My $0.02:
I trust these developers on this site ALOT. What they have managed to do with the software is amazing. However, software is software. These trickle-charge kernels were amazing SOFTWARE-WISE. However, the effects of charges on batteries are not your specialty, so while it may be amazing that you all developed these kernels, there effect on the battery is not alright. I (sorry) trust an industry of battery/software engineers over some basement-developers who like pushing the limits (Pushing the limits is awesome, just not when it comes to batteries lol)
hmsheen10 said:
I installed one of these amazing new kernels the other day and loved it. I was even able to keep 100% for about 30 minutes of usage and I was amazed. Yet today I checked Phandroid and an article from an XDA contributer came up:
http://phandroid.com/2010/12/25/you...is-lying-to-you-and-its-not-such-a-bad-thing/
In the article he explained (from what I understand) that he thinks knows it is a GOOD THING that phones aren't programmed to allow the battery to keep charging at the real 100% because it would end up damaging the battery in the end, much like how many of the early cell phone batterys would get damaged.
Until I find out the answer I (sadly) switched back to my old kernel, as I would rather be safe than sorry, at least until I find out for sure.
Any responses?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yup, there is a reason why all the phone makers have them charge like that and there is also a reason why putting custom roms on your phone voids your warranty.
Remember hearing about all those ipod and lap top batteries that liked to blow up?
Edit: he's also forgetting that when the battery gets close to full the voltage starts changing less and less, to the point that it is nearly impossible to accurately tell how much battery you have when it is over 80% full
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
i knew it was too good to be true :\
yea i get amazing battery life with this trickle charging only when i leave it on charger for around 7+ hours. Sounds like i should stop using that then damn
Edit: didnt mean to quote anyone
From what I read the article didnt reveal any specifics to if and when it will damage a battery.The article seemed to suggest that because battery manufacturers changed how they implimented charging it means that trickle charging is bad. It does not have enough variables in this observation to come to any conclusion. If advancements have been made in the battery industry you could also come to the conlcusion that trickle charging is or would be ok.
I am not trying to go against the article or this thread but simply wondering if after a thorough evaluation of the battery capacity after say 3 months using trickle charging and one without trickle charging we give an conclusion.
If need be I will run my phone with trickle charging, will someone else volunteer there phone for research?
For the extra bump I get every day now Ill by a new battery for 15 bucks a little more often. Its worth it for me YMMV
Yep, trickle charging is bad for the battery. Rememebr when all those laptop batteries were catching on fire? Same thing could potentially happen if your battery is not charged properly. They charge the batteries the way they do for a reason. That reason is relatively long battery life and safety.
Here is a good article on the subject.
I think that the makers of all these new kernels than should put up a warning specifically pertaining to the dangers of the kernel
Sent from my EVO
Quoting ms79723 :
Will this damage my battery?
This charging method doesnt damage the batteries at all. It shouldnt. Because our batteries dont even charge up to 4.2V without the tweak. They charge up to 4.2V the first charge, then drop all the way down to 4.08V or something and then does these weird short burst chargers to 4.1-4.125V. Thats why there's the rapid drop in the morning. Because your voltage is actually at 4.125V and that's not 100%. So with this tweak, the charger keeps charging until you're at 4.2V (or the maximum voltage your battery can get to) and then it trickle chargers while at that voltage. The charger itself never turns off. Thats not a bad thing. Because as you reach your actual voltage, the mA decreases. Which is why our phones will never be damaged. You ever want to know why its really easy to charge from 50-80% but the charge from 90-100% seems to take so long? Its because from 50% the mA going into the phone is in the 600's. Once it reaches 90%, the mA is around 150 and once it reaches 95% you're looking at 90mA. The phone when absolutely idle uses anywhere from 60-120mA, even when on the charger. So charging from 90% to 100% takes longer becaus the mA going into the phone isnt always higher than the mA you're losing. This is the same with charging past 100%. As you leave the phone on the charger with this tweak, you're mA will decrease from 50mA all the way down to 2mA overnight. But on the charger you're losing about 30-60mA already, so you'll never overcharge the battery, in best case scenarios, you'll just maintain the voltage of 4.2 or around 4.2V.
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Unfortunately, if you read their thread, they say they disagree that any harm is being done.
Personally, I am not a battery expert, though I do have some experience with them in the EV car field, but my understanding is these batteries will be damaged if continuously held at a full charge. That is why the manufacturers design the system to full charge, then discharge to approximately 90% and then charge again, continuously cycling the battery.
From what I have read and from talking to the guys who design Li-ion batteries, they say that prolonging the time that the battery is at full charge significantly reduces battery life. Over time it can also lead to overheating resulting in an unsafe battery. For those reasons, virtually all properly designed charging circuits for Li-ion batteries are set up to let the battery sit at full charge for the shortest time possible.
Vann's quote from the kernel thread proves my point, what it appears they are trying to do is hold the battery fully charged while it is on the charger. That might increase the amount of time you can run your phone in the short run. But in the long run it will kill the battery.
I suggest you guys RELAX and try to stick with the responsibility of handling your phone the easiest way possible. Being not the hardest way to learn, but you eventually find the way to start new each time you look at your phone. Just saying kinda like when I have my EVO, It is just peachy to have. I don't want to tear the skin or even puncture the screen. LOL Like a PEACH?
I'm imaginative today and well, I always try to keep my phone in cool conditions, for short say. I use Juice Defender with Ultimate Juice with a good nice kernel and ROM that suits it as it suits.
alekosy said:
I suggest you guys RELAX and try to stick with the responsibility of handling your phone the easiest way possible. Being not the hardest way to learn, but you eventually find the way to start new each time you look at your phone. Just saying kinda like when I have my EVO, It is just peachy to have. I don't want to tear the skin or even puncture the screen. LOL Like a PEACH?
I'm imaginative today and well, I always try to keep my phone in cool conditions, for short say. I use Juice Defender with Ultimate Juice with a good nice kernel and ROM that suits it as it suits.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
wtf.........?
Well its just like rooting and flashing custom roms, it may do this it may do that. If its such a concern don't use it. I'm using it and my phone doesn't take 7 hours to charge and it doesn't overheat at all, its a risk I am taking and I don't hold the developer responsible for it if something goes wrong. I understand the concern about this and I'm sure he will add a disclaimer.
wow and i was just starting to appreciate the new kernels. thanks for ruining it for me guys...
haha no i guess thanks for saving me....
dkdude36 said:
wow and i was just starting to appreciate the new kernels. thanks for ruining it for me guys...
haha no i guess thanks for saving me....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreeeeeeeeeed!
wfrandy said:
Yep, trickle charging is bad for the battery. Rememebr when all those laptop batteries were catching on fire? Same thing could potentially happen if your battery is not charged properly. They charge the batteries the way they do for a reason. That reason is relatively long battery life and safety.
Here is a good article on the subject.
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Click to collapse
This article is confusing because it says 2 different things:
1. The current "trickle charging" kernels are safe but we should be calling them "topping off" instead:
Full charge is attained after the voltage threshold has been reached and the current has dropped to 3% of the rated current or has leveled off.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The kernels drop to 0mA at 4.20V, so the voltage threshold is reached and the current safely drops.
2. The kernel is not safe because it keeps the battery at 4.20V/cell continuously:
No trickle charge is applied because lithium-ion is unable to absorb overcharge. A continuous trickle charge above 4.05V/cell would causes plating of metallic lithium that could lead to instabilities and compromise safety. Instead, a brief topping charge is provided to compensate for the small self-discharge the battery and its protective circuit consume. Depending on the battery, a topping charge may be repeated once every 20 days.
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Click to collapse
What am I missing?
guys... this is from the article put up:
When charging above 4.30V, the cell causes plating of metallic lithium on the anode; the cathode material becomes an oxidizing agent, loses stability and releases oxygen. Overcharging causes the cell to heat up. If left unattended, the cell could vent with flame.
The "trickle charge" kernels never go near 4.30v, mine stops at 4.19. Also, the temperature during the "trickle" overnight is very low. after 8 hours of "trickling" my battery was at 30 degrees C. Only time will tell if the battery life is SLIGHTLY shortened from this charging, but it is in NO WAY NEAR exploding, catching fire, blah blah blah. Stop scaring people, read the articles you post yourself and actually look at what is going on in these kernels. You may surprise yourself!
Now, if you cant get a replacement battery because you live on the moon and want your battery life to stay 3 years instead of 2 1/2, then it is your choice to not use these kernels, but dont scare others away just because you don't want to partake.
aph said:
This article is confusing because it says 2 different things:
1. The current "trickle charging" kernels are safe but we should be calling them "topping off" instead:
The kernels drop to 0mA at 4.20V, so the voltage threshold is reached and the current safely drops.
2. The kernel is not safe because it keeps the battery at 4.20V/cell continuously:
What am I missing?
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Click to collapse
hmsheen10 said:
wtf.........?
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Jfree3000 said:
Well its just like rooting and flashing custom roms, it may do this it may do that. If its such a concern don't use it. I'm using it and my phone doesn't take 7 hours to charge and it doesn't overheat at all, its a risk I am taking and I don't hold the developer responsible for it if something goes wrong. I understand the concern about this and I'm sure he will add a disclaimer.
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Click to collapse
dkdude36 said:
wow and i was just starting to appreciate the new kernels. thanks for ruining it for me guys...
haha no i guess thanks for saving me....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hmsheen10 said:
Agreeeeeeeeeed!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
LOL I don't know, but battery trickling isn't good to be heard to deal nicely with these EVOs, but If you wanna try to give it a run or a test on your own, be prepared that you voided your warranty.
alekosy said:
LOL I don't know, but battery trickling isn't good to be heard to deal nicely with these EVOs, but If you wanna try to give it a run or a test on your own, be prepared that you voided your warranty.
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Click to collapse
Your warranty was void as soon as you were able to flash a kernel... seriously... (I still have had a screen replaced from separating though!)
Look! A brand new battery for your EVO for $2.92 shipped!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/1500-mAh-HTC-Ex...ccessories&hash=item4aa608f2c7#ht_3246wt_1198
I guess I don't care if I have to replace them... just as long as they last an extra couple of hours everyday...
You all know that there is NO WAY it can hurt the actual phone, right???
sd2649 said:
Your warranty was void as soon as you were able to flash a kernel... seriously... (I still have had a screen replaced from separating though!)
Look! A brand new battery for your EVO for $2.92 shipped!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/1500-mAh-HTC-Ex...ccessories&hash=item4aa608f2c7#ht_3246wt_1198
I guess I don't care if I have to replace them... just as long as they last an extra couple of hours everyday...
You all know that there is NO WAY it can hurt the actual phone, right???
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Click to collapse
And try JuiceDefender with UltimateJuice, the 2nd app is a small fee paid app for donation, but it's very useful with the right kernel and rom for your liking. Trust on that, I think everyone would probably agree that this way would be the safest legit way.
How is everyone finding the battery life. Personally, I am finding it just plain horrible. I'm not sure what the issue is specifically but either something is draining it or it is just really that bad, in which case I will return it. I can't get a day's worth of moderate use out of it. It seems to be at most half of what I get from my note 10.1 and they aren't set up any differently. I've tried some of the basics like turning down the screen brightness (which annoys me), turning off the smart stay (but why have a feature you can't use), tweaking email checking settings, turning off samsung sync, turning off bluetooth (don't use it), and locations services. Is anyone else seeing this as an issue and does anyone have any additional suggestions for me to try?
Thanks in Advance
I get about two days between charges on mine. I get a decent amount of usage on a daily basis between email, Facebook, and candy crush. I even have Google Now running. How many charge cycles have you been through?
05GT said:
I get about two days between charges on mine. I get a decent amount of usage on a daily basis between email, Facebook, and candy crush. I even have Google Now running. How many charge cycles have you been through?
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Click to collapse
If by charge cycles you mean fully discharging the phone until it shuts off, I haven't done that, but could give it a shot. It has gone down to 10% several times though.
No battery problems here. I wouldn't blame charge cycles, if they have any effect at all, it is minor. If I were you, I would do a factory reset, followed by an exchange if the reset doesn't fix it.
I have smart stay on , backlight on auto, and take no extra precautions for battery savings.
DownTFish said:
How is everyone finding the battery life. Personally, I am finding it just plain horrible. I'm not sure what the issue is specifically but either something is draining it or it is just really that bad, in which case I will return it. I can't get a day's worth of moderate use out of it. It seems to be at most half of what I get from my note 10.1 and they aren't set up any differently. I've tried some of the basics like turning down the screen brightness (which annoys me), turning off the smart stay (but why have a feature you can't use), tweaking email checking settings, turning off samsung sync, turning off bluetooth (don't use it), and locations services. Is anyone else seeing this as an issue and does anyone have any additional suggestions for me to try?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can you please post some screen shots of your battery life at the end of a typical cycle? It will help with comparisons by giving us more details on your running apps, screen-on display times, etc. Also, what wakelocks do you have? Use BetterBatteryStats or Wakelock Detector from the Play store for that. This info might help us to identify just how much drain is related to rogue apps or the general battery life itself.
sefrcoko said:
Can you please post some screen shots of your battery life at the end of a typical cycle? It will help with comparisons by giving us more details on your running apps, screen-on display times, etc. Also, what wakelocks do you have? Use BetterBatteryStats or Wakelock Detector from the Play store for that. This info might help us to identify just how much drain is related to rogue apps or the general battery life itself.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks. Just downloaded BetterBatteryStatus. I'll let it run for a bit and see what comes up. I'll post what I came up with with screen shots from it. Thanks for pointing me in a direction.
Also, it'd help to know how many hours "just plain horrible" is.
I'm not delighted by the battery life I'm seeing, I'm finding I want to charge every night, and that I can easily consume 15% / hour or more even without the screen turned up past 20-25%. (watching video off the NAS in the house.)
Then again, this is the first LCD display I've been able to read in full sunlight, and that's remarkable to me. I often wind up with full sun in the morning when I get up, and am delighted that if I did charge overnight I can use the device even then.
The battery needs some initial "training".
Charge fully on the first and run it all the way down to nearly zero, and fully charge again.
DO NOT interrupt the initial charge.
Battery life is great here after 5 cycles running it to 1% and recharging full at first it was draining faster but now I can watch 4 hours of netflix and still have 25% left nice thing is that the battery charges superfast so no worries
DownTFish said:
If by charge cycles you mean fully discharging the phone until it shuts off, I haven't done that, but could give it a shot. It has gone down to 10% several times though.
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Click to collapse
10% is just fine, for purposes of calibrating the battery meter. Preferable actually. You shouldn't actually drain the device until shutdown. There are safeguards that are supposed to ensure the battery voltage does not drop too low (its not actually zero when the phone shuts down). However, in reality these safeguards are not always failsafe and I've seen plenty of cases on various Android devices where letting the battery drain to shutoff renders the battery unable to take a charge (below the minimum threshold voltage). Sometimes, letting the battery charge overnight will bring the battery back. Otherwise, you are pretty screwed, as the only remedy would be a battery meter with a boost function.
In any case, the battery meter is not very accurate, even under the best of circumstances, so letting it drain to 10% is plenty accurate enough. Then let it charge to 100%, and let it sit at full for a while, as fully saturating the battery takes extra time.
---------- Post added at 11:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:08 AM ----------
That said, its hard to say what "moderate use" means. Everyone uses their devices differently. If you are playing intensive games, downloading files, heavy internet usage, it can drain the battery much faster than other activities. And the number of hours of screen-on time is key. So the idea of getting some battery stats and screenshots, is a good one.
I haven't been tracking screen-on time myself. But I find the battery to be decent. I use it a good amount in the evening (don't bring it to work) mostly for reading and web browsing. I have brightness on 40-50% usually (sometimes less, if the room is darker). The battery was just under 40% after 2 nights of use (maybe 40 hours after the last charge). Just guessing, but maybe 3 or 4 hours of screen on time?
Some online reviews mentioned the battery life is not as good as some other comparable devices (such as Nexus 7 and iPad Mini). Not surprising, since the Note 8 has a faster processor and higher resolution screen than either. And so far, battery life is not amazing, but seems comparable or better (better drain while idle) than my old HTC Flyer tablet. So for me, thats just fine.
I got about 4 hours screen-on time on my first battery cycle with heavy usage. Was playing games, movies, internet browsing, etc. My second and third cycles were better, giving me 5-6 hours screen-on time with moderate to heavy usage. Didn't really play any movies, but did play a fair amount of games and stuff.
On those later cycles my screen-on drain represented about 85% of my overall drain. This leads me to say that you can expect 4.5-6.5 hours of screen-on time with the Note 8, depending on usage. Keep in mind that I keep wifi always on, disabled bluetooth/auto-sync/smart stay, stopped some running apps like Maps and Factory Test, and kept brightness down to about 15% of the max setting.
Screen is definitely the big drain here, and these results lead me to believe that even with root and apps like Greenify I would not get much better results. Looks like any further battery savings will need to come from a custom kernel and custom rom (unless maybe you root and then underclock/undervolt using a third party app like Voltage Control or SetCpu). Anyone else have similar (or different ) results?
mingkee said:
The battery needs some initial "training".
Charge fully on the first and run it all the way down to nearly zero, and fully charge again.
DO NOT interrupt the initial charge.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
dumbest thing wrote in this thread probably. You do not need to train or do a full charge. How come people still believe that nonsense in 2013 ??
Bagbug said:
dumbest thing wrote in this thread probably. You do not need to train or do a full charge. How come people still believe that nonsense in 2013 ??
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Click to collapse
:what:...XDA is for fun and for sharing; not for putting others down. Please be a little more respectful towards forum users when you post in the future. If you disagree with something then just explain so we can all learn together.
I am assuming the Note 8 has a lithium based battery. I couldn't confirm it though. The below link has some tips for how to care for different type of batteries. Useful reading.
http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/tablets/how-and-when-to-charge-your-tablet-battery/814
Sent from my GT-N5110 using xda app-developers app
Although the battery life is of concern to me, the fact it charges via a micro USB input rather than propriatry cable alieviates that worry (looking at you Apple). I dont think I go anywhere where there isnt a charger available thanks to the amount of devices that use them.
Bagbug said:
dumbest thing wrote in this thread probably. You do not need to train or do a full charge. How come people still believe that nonsense in 2013 ??
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
While his terminology might have been a bit clumsy, he is not completely incorrect.
The terminology of "training the battery" invokes the concepts of conditioning the old technology NiCad batteries to prevent memory effects, which are not a concern with Li ion batteries, which is what you seem to be referring to. Folks on XDA will often talk about conditioning or calibrating the battery, which can be a bit misleading (as often they have the behavior of the old NiCad batteries in mind when saying this).
However, it is true that the battery meter needs to be calibrated to be completely accurate. This calibration has no chemical effect on the battery itself (like it does with NiCad batteries) but simply effects how the current readings are displayed by the % battery meter on the device's screen. Without fully charging and draining the device, it doesn't have fully accurate "flags" associated the current to battery %.
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/battery_calibration
Failure to calibrate the meter won't have a negative chemical effect, like failure to periodically condition a NiCad battery. And therefore it won't have an affect on the battery life. But properly calibrating will give you the most accurate % battery reading possible. The battery meter is not accurate out of the box, after a ROM flash, and an OTA may also reset the calibration.
As I've already mentioned in a previous response, I don't recommend draining the battery to shutoff. As doing so can lead to the battery no longer taking a charge, and the device no longer powering on. Its rare, but it does happen. Fully changing, then draining to 10% or so is enough. Full cycles are also not good for the long term life of the battery, although just doing it once every few months is still acceptable.
---------- Post added at 10:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:07 AM ----------
kisrita said:
I am assuming the Note 8 has a lithium based battery. I couldn't confirm it though. The below link has some tips for how to care for different type of batteries. Useful reading.
http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/tablets/how-and-when-to-charge-your-tablet-battery/814
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Pretty good link, thanks. And reinforces what I just said above.
Most any smartphone or tablet made in the past several years uses a Li ion battery. This confirms it: http://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_note_8_0_n5100-5252.php
---------- Post added at 10:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:21 AM ----------
hertsjoatmon said:
Although the battery life is of concern to me, the fact it charges via a micro USB input rather than propriatry cable alieviates that worry (looking at you Apple). I dont think I go anywhere where there isnt a charger available thanks to the amount of devices that use them.
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Click to collapse
The charger for the Note 8 is 2 Amps, while most MicroUSB chargers (at least for phones and other small devices) are 1 Amp. Although this varies, and there are other tablet chargers that are also 2 Amps; but these are far less common than phone charges that just about anyone with a phone that isn't Apple will have.
What this means is that the 1 Amp charger will charge the Note 8 very slowly. I tried mine on a 1 Amp charger just once so far. Left it on for maybe an hour, and the charge only increased by a few percent.
So yes, you can charge with most MicroUSB chargers in a pinch. But it will be slow.
hertsjoatmon said:
Although the battery life is of concern to me, the fact it charges via a micro USB input rather than propriatry cable alieviates that worry (looking at you Apple). I dont think I go anywhere where there isnt a charger available thanks to the amount of devices that use them.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Don't get the physical plug of a charger confuse you - I believe this tablet needs a 2amp output from the charger, meaning just because your charger has the same end connection, it won't necessarily help you charge this battery. I've had my users come to me thinking their devices are defective because they somehow started charging their tablet with their Bluetooth headset charger.
Someone also mentioned the black wallpaper that might help with the battery consumption - I believe that is only helpful on AMOLED screens that Samsung has used on other devices.
I'm really still on the fence on keeping it after I bought this - I'm coming from a GT 7.7 which had excellent build quality,screen, and battery life. The loss of the AMOLED screen for both graphics and battery efficiency is bothering me. I put both up side by side and feel disappointed that Samsung couldn't just make a JB updated 7.7 with new CPU, 2GB RAM, and stylus with the same design and beautiful Super AMOLED Plus screen. It's not even the price - but just feeling like I'm getting a somewhat inferior device (in a few but important aspects) from the 7.7, when it's supposed to be an upgrade to the older device.
I've seen the news about an upgrade to the 7.7 possibly coming, but will it come with the stylus that is also important to me and the other software enhancements from the Note 8?
Bagbug said:
dumbest thing wrote in this thread probably. You do not need to train or do a full charge. How come people still believe that nonsense in 2013 ??
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Funny thing happened on mine.
The battery was VERY BAD the second day, but it could play live streaming for two hours when the battery was 1%. As soon as the tablet went off due to depleted battery, I charged it until it went all the way until the "full battery" came up.
After that, the battery is much better now, so don't say anything "dumb" or any nonsense because it works.
rEVOLVE said:
Someone also mentioned the black wallpaper that might help with the battery consumption - I believe that is only helpful on AMOLED screens
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Click to collapse
That is correct, having a black background does not effect battery life on LCD screens.
On AMOLED screens, black pixels are actually not emitting light (while pixels displaying other colors emit light), which is why a black background will cause less battery drain than other colors.
On an LCD, the liquid crystal layer that depicts the colors is not itself a source of light. Its lit from the back, and the light intensity of the backlight is the same regardless of what color is being displayed. How much light is blocked or let though by the liquid crystal layer varies depending on their alignment (what color is being displayed). But this doesn't affect how bright the backlight is, anymore than pulling a window blind makes the sun burn less hydrogen.
Speedy Gonzalez said:
Battery life is great here after 5 cycles running it to 1% and recharging full at first it was draining faster but now I can watch 4 hours of netflix and still have 25% left nice thing is that the battery charges superfast so no worries
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Only four hours? My Nexus 7 averages about 10.5 hours of Netflix with 10% left. I wonder how other note 8's compare?
Sent from my Nexus 7 using xda premium
Hi,
I'm trying to run through a few charge cycles with my new N5100 but when it gets to 5% power it turns off the brightness (i.e. no backlight) and the brightness setting is disabled, meaning that I can barely see the screen.
Is there any way of stopping this automating dimming so that the brightness remains on all the way down to 0%?
Thanks,
Coj
Thank you very much indeed!
That "feature" is bugging me beyond belief!
How on earth is it possible that Samsung is implementing this without an option to disable it?!?
I mean, it's a business device with a battery big enough to have 5% equal more than 30 minutes of screen time.
30 minutes can be quite crucial if I'm in the middle of a meeting or trying to figure out my train departure time.
You can't see a thing if the screen is dimmed down to 5%!
Any workaround and/or fix is greatly appreciated!
Regards,
Yoko
Yokobln said:
Thank you very much indeed!
That "feature" is bugging me beyond belief!
How on earth is it possible that Samsung is implementing this without an option to disable it?!?
I mean, it's a business device with a battery big enough to have 5% equal more than 30 minutes of screen time.
30 minutes can be quite crucial if I'm in the middle of a meeting or trying to figure out my train departure time.
You can't see a thing if the screen is dimmed down to 5%!
Any workaround and/or fix is greatly appreciated!
Regards,
Yoko
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Click to collapse
I think this is when the power saving mode is enabled automatically. Try turning it off in the settings. This is how it is on my note 2.
emwno said:
I think this is when the power saving mode is enabled automatically. Try turning it off in the settings. This is how it is on my note 2.
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Click to collapse
Nope! I enabled everything, disabled power saving just to try to get the unit to turn off to complete the discharge cycle but the screen remained dimmed...it's really frustrating.
Im no expert, but isn't that bad for these batteries? I'm pretty sure doing that does more harm than good.
Sent from my SGH-T889 using Xparent Skyblue Tapatalk 2
Warrior1975 said:
Im no expert, but isn't that bad for these batteries? I'm pretty sure doing that does more harm than good.
Sent from my SGH-T889 using Xparent Skyblue Tapatalk 2
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Click to collapse
Yes, you are correct. What these people are trying to do is not only a waste of time, but directly harmful to the battery chemistry.
So what constitutes a full discharge cycle then? I bow to your superior knowledge!
Sent from my GT-N5100 using Tapatalk HD
cojones said:
Nope! I enabled everything, disabled power saving just to try to get the unit to turn off to complete the discharge cycle but the screen remained dimmed...it's really frustrating.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There is no benefit to discharging to shutoff. If you are trying to get the battery meter as accurate as possible, just discharging to 10, or even 20% is plenty. The meter is not all that accurate under the best or circumstances to justify going anywhere below 10%.
Charge to 100%, let it sit on the charger for a while, to make sure you get the saturation charge. Then use until 10 or 20%. That is as much of a "full discharge cycle" you need for the purpose of calibrating the battery meter.
Also, discharge until the device shuts off, and you might find the device won't take a charge or power on anymore. The safety circuit is supposed to prevent the battery from over-draining (voltage below changeable threshold). But its not failsafe. Somewhat rare, but I've seen it happen to a number of XDA users on various Android devices. Usually, charging overnight will bring the battery back. Sometimes . . . not.
cojones said:
So what constitutes a full discharge cycle then? I bow to your superior knowledge!
Sent from my GT-N5100 using Tapatalk HD
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No reason to get all sarcastic. This is a place to learn, lots of people are very knowledgeable, most more than the next. You think your way is right, then continue. Or perhaps, take a step back and maybe learn a little more before doing things.
Sent from my SGH-T889 using Xparent Skyblue Tapatalk 2
We could get deep into LiIon or LiPo chemistry if we wanted to, but just to clear up an thing or two....
- I fully expect a device in that price range from a manufacturer like Samsung to not take *any* damage if I discharge the tablet. I am fully aware of the damage that can be done to these battery cells by deep-discharging them as I use them on a regular basis in RC aircrafts. I also know that there is a quiet sophisticated dis/charge protection circuit built in any (serious) device that is using these type of cells. The battery aswell as the notebook / tablet have those built in.
It should not not be possible to deep-discharge any device from a reputable company unless you let it sit on your desk for months without charging it at all. It's shut of by the controller long before that happens.
- I fully expect to be able to use all battery power until the above mentioned controls kick in and power the unit down hard. This goes for any notebook, mobile phone or tablet. There are many devices on the market that do not force you to use the device for half an hour at 5% brightness before shutting down. Why? The damage (if there was any) would be the same. Half an hour at 5% or 7 minutes at 100% brightness ..... the battery doesn't care.
- Unfortunately we live in a world where we exchange our gadgets every 2 years. What do I care if the battery performance degrades to 75% three years from now. Samsung certainly doesn't, or they would have made the battery replaceable in the first place (which I would appreciate a lot, even if that came with 2mm extra thickness + 35 grams of additional plastic)
Sorry for typos... me = german
Regards,
Yoko
Warrior1975 said:
No reason to get all sarcastic. This is a place to learn, lots of people are very knowledgeable, most more than the next. You think your way is right, then continue. Or perhaps, take a step back and maybe learn a little more before doing things.
Sent from my SGH-T889 using Xparent Skyblue Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I was not being sarcastic. You read it that way and if you took it as sarcastic then that says more about you than me. Do not pass judgement that ultimately is futile and unhelpful to all.
I was being genuine when I say I bow to your (pl.) superior knowledge...I really do. The reason I'm on here is to learn in order to get the best experience. It just so happens that many years ago when I started, the batteries required regular full discharge cycles, so that was my current understanding until guidance was provided to change that.
I apologize for my statement, I took it the wrong way.
Sent from my SGH-T889 using Xparent Skyblue Tapatalk 2
Yokobln said:
We could get deep into LiIon or LiPo chemistry if we wanted to, but just to clear up an thing or two....
- I fully expect a device in that price range from a manufacturer like Samsung to not take *any* damage if I discharge the tablet. I am fully aware of the damage that can be done to these battery cells by deep-discharging them as I use them on a regular basis in RC aircrafts. I also know that there is a quiet sophisticated dis/charge protection circuit built in any (serious) device that is using these type of cells. The battery aswell as the notebook / tablet have those built in.
It should not not be possible to deep-discharge any device from a reputable company unless you let it sit on your desk for months without charging it at all. It's shut of by the controller long before that happens.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'd say that the danger is less about actual chemical damage to the battery; and more (as I've previously mentioned) that the voltage will drop too low for the battery to take a charge from the standard charger.
In theory, the protection circuit is meant to prevent this. Unfortunately, its not failsafe (and nothing ever is) in reality. I've seen it happen plenty of times before on other Android devices, and good quality ones (HTC One X, Desire Z, etc.) where folks have let the battery drain to shutoff, and the battery will no longer take a charge. I wouldn't call it "common", really more of a rarity. But of course, there is always that possibility that Murphy's Law is going to decide that you are "that guy", and than that really sucks.
In some of these instances, letting the device sit on the standard wall charger overnight will get it working again. But sometimes, this doesn't work. In that case the solution was a battery meter with "boost" function which out get the battery back up to the proper voltage. But this equipment is typically only found in specialized repair shops. Buying a new battery was a simple and reletively cheap alternate fix on some past devices. But since the battery is not meant to be customer replaced on the Note 8, this is less of a feasible fix.
Again, this issue in uncommon, but it exists. We all let our devices drain too low by accident, at one time or other. But why tempt fate and probability? There is simply no good reason to drain the device to shutoff on a frequent and intentional basis.
One of my buddies is waiting on a new Nexus 7 tablet because he accidentally let it drain completely and it wont take a charge.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using xda premium
Solution to the OP?
For me, at least, this app works:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=mobi.pruss.superdim
^second, works great. sucks we have to work around but that app works great for me (note 2).
Only bug is when you lock the screen and unlock you have to re-enable rootdim again. Even the "lock" feature doesnt seem to work against the systems 5% force dim.
I found a way to solve the problem using the app llama. Create 2 events:
1: Conditions = battery below 6% AND not chargin; action = screen brightness = 100%
2: conditions = battery above 5 OR charging;
Action = screen brightness = auto.
Works for me with Sgs5mini and 4.4.2 stock rom, rooted
Regards
This is an old thread, but I needed to comment in case someone else was wanting to discharge their zerolemon 100000mah battery and not have the screen or not be able to use their camera. Go to setting, developers options and click stay awake... This works! I've been trying for a while to figure out how to use my phone for the days it takes to run the battery out on this large capacity battery, per the instructions from zerolemon and finally found it by accident.
I'm a complete noob on wireless charging and this is the first time I have bought a device that has it. I bought the plain flat wireless charger for use with this Note 7 to have by my computer desk and now I'm thinking of getting one for where I place my phone every night to charge. My question to anyone who has had extensive use with wireless charging, is it ok to ONLY use wireless charging? Even overnight? Not sure if it matters but I turn my phone off to charge every night.
You should have no problems only using the wireless charger. The only difference is that wirelessly charging your phone will be slower then using the fast charging cable that came with the phone.
Side note, I've started turning off fast charging when i charge overnight. Don't need it to charge quicker at that point and figure it may give the battery some extra life after a while. I usually avoid charging overnight so it doesn't sit at 100% for hours.
Back on topic, I think wireless creates more heat...heat bad...do the math. Plus taking it on/off charger constantly is def no good.
Only wireless charge my s7 edge and doing the same with my note 7.
If the battery get very low and i need to use the phone ill put it on the cable.
But no damage will happen. The phone has built in safety and the charger does also.
tgtoys said:
Side note, I've started turning off fast charging when i charge overnight. Don't need it to charge quicker at that point and figure it may give the battery some extra life after a while. I usually avoid charging overnight so it doesn't sit at 100% for hours.
Back on topic, I think wireless creates more heat...heat bad...do the math. Plus taking it on/off charger constantly is def no good.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
pointless, its all software controlled.
ducksauce88 said:
I'm a complete noob on wireless charging and this is the first time I have bought a device that has it. I bought the plain flat wireless charger for use with this Note 7 to have by my computer desk and now I'm thinking of getting one for where I place my phone every night to charge. My question to anyone who has had extensive use with wireless charging, is it ok to ONLY use wireless charging? Even overnight? Not sure if it matters but I turn my phone off to charge every night.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi. I feel your frustration!
I did a little online research regarding battery life and charging and found a site that has real qualified experts with Ph.D's in this science.
Bottom line is all charging shortens battery life.
It appears to come down to a few rules.
Don't fully charge your battery. IE don't leave it on all night as we do.
Don't let your battery fully drain.
Don't use quick charging.
Don't use wireless charge.
Use the proprietary charger that comes with your mobile. (mine came with a quick charger though?).
Heat and built in obsolescence seem to be the problem. Its very complex and its best you Google this subject yourself as there are so many forum 'experts' one never knows what to believe.
Did you know that fast charging stops at 60% and then goes to trickle? If that's the case why cant we fast charge....its so confusing.
Research this yourself. Its best.
Ryland
NOT a battery expert!
Ryland Johnson said:
It appears to come down to a few rules.
Don't fully charge your battery. IE don't leave it on all night as we do.
Don't let your battery fully drain.
Don't use quick charging.
Don't use wireless charge.
Use the proprietary charger that comes with your mobile. (mine came with a quick charger though?).
Heat and built in obsolescence seem to be the problem. Its very complex and its best you Google this subject yourself as there are so many forum 'experts' one never knows what to believe.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
.
I am not certain we should worry so much about all this. At the end of the day we have to put a certain level of trust in the manufacturer of the phone, that they have put the effort in to making sure we don't damage or shorten the length of life to the device because of the technology they have introduced.
For the record, I 'slow-wireless' charge my devices overnight and top up on a fast charge cable whenever I need to. I never let it completely discharge and I don't recharge above 80% generally. No noticeable issues over the past 2yrs.
.
Thanks for all the reply guys. I wasn't really worried about the it being overnight since I know that these manufacturers let it get to 100% and the let it drain, then charge again so it's never fully saying at 100%. I just didn't know the long term effect of wireless charging. Looks like all charging effects it. Haha. I'll turn off quick charge and see if that helps anything. I work form home so I'm almost always by my charger. I guess i just shouldn't be as worried because no matter what the battery will get worse over time. I bet it's not really hard to pull the back off this phone either to replace it.
i killed tupac said:
pointless, its all software controlled.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wanna elaborate on that one? Pretty sure everything I said was correct, but if not please do grace us more with something more than "pointless".
apprentice said:
.
I am not certain we should worry so much about all this. At the end of the day we have to put a certain level of trust in the manufacturer of the phone, that they have put the effort in to making sure we don't damage or shorten the length of life to the device because of the technology they have introduced.
For the record, I 'slow-wireless' charge my devices overnight and top up on a fast charge cable whenever I need to. I never let it completely discharge and I don't recharge above 80% generally. No noticeable issues over the past 2yrs.
.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi, Cant disagree with what you write however......lol. Many years ago a doctor would prescribe medication and said medication came with no manufacturers information just the dosage and time that our doctor prescribed.
These days drug manufacturers have to give highly detailed literature with all medications. Here is my point at last.
If you read the blurb given, for say a pain killer, it may list pain as one of the side effects. I once purchased an over the counter sea sickness remedy for my son and in the blurb it gave NAUSEA as a side effect! Certain antidepressants can cause suicide! Now if we parallel this to company's who 'just' manufacture mobile phones imagine what they know that they DON'T inform us about? Just food for thought. :highfive:
Oh another point...how many owners actually read that massive manufacturers owners manual? Should the owners manual be read no end of situations and misfortunes would and could be understood and avoided.
Ryland
tgtoys said:
Wanna elaborate on that one? Pretty sure everything I said was correct, but if not please do grace us more with something more than "pointless".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
sorry. the software and power managment in Android will not allow the battery to destroy itself or even degrade itself. it does not matter anymore how you charge them, for how long, etc. The only thing that can harm it is cheap cables that fail and cross wires externally, which then route voltage into the port.
i killed tupac said:
sorry. the software and power managment in Android will not allow the battery to destroy itself or even degrade itself. it does not matter anymore how you charge them, for how long, etc. The only thing that can harm it is cheap cables that fail and cross wires externally, which then route voltage into the port.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I know the software will help it last longer and not do immediate damage, but you can most definitely degrade it quicker.
Speaking for myself I've always been kinda aware of the failure potential of these batteries. For instance, I tend to not leave the phone unattended during charging and also use such tasker profiles as to shutdown when charge below 5% or alert when charging above 95%. These latter measures and others are mostly to help with battery longevity as well as or rather my ocdness on this subject.
My only gripe is that I never succeeded in instilling the same 'respect' for battery in my wife.. Pre or even post-note she always forgets her tablet or her phone plugged in the charger, even when no one's at home, sometimes for days!
But this recent note7 'mishap' let me tell you, made me even more wary of the destructive potential of the batteries in our phones. Especially since most of my latest snapdragon devices (m7, z5) get very warm while performing various mundane tasks (syncing via wifi/lte, camera, games rendering etc), much warmer then the defunct note.
Did this event affect the way you use your mobile devices and how? Is there any particular strategy you use with this respect? Or do you rather think that the failure rate being so low it's rather silly to worry about it?
millicent said:
Did this event affect the way you use your mobile devices and how?
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Click to collapse
Nope, it hasn't made me change anything so far. I don't believe the issue with the Note 7 is directly a result of the battery since Samsung had two manufacturers make batteries and in both instances Note 7 devices with either battery still failed.
Is there any particular strategy you use with this respect?
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Click to collapse
As long as the device is working properly meaning there's no defect that I am aware of (as in no global recall in effect, etc) in any part of the power or charging systems then I tend to leave my devices plugged in until they charge to 100% status then I'll usually leave them connected to the charger for up to 30 minutes past that point then disconnect. With the GS7A I have, I only charge it once every 2.5-3 days typically and that's from 5-10% back to 100% using a Samsung 2A charger - I don't use the factory fast charger and I don't use fast charging because I believe that ends up shortening the potential lifespan of the battery cell itself.
I did not say that's a fact for everyone to live by or accept as the gospel truth, I said for myself personally I believe that fast charging shortens the lifespan of the battery cell itself.
For the record I've owned several hundred devices over the decades, some with Ni-Cad batteries, most with Li-Ion over the past decade, and a few with Li-Po technolology and I only had one instance of a battery having a problem (not a failure). It was a knockoff cheap Chinese clone battery for my Galaxy S4 Active several years ago and it bloated up one afternoon - thankfully that GS4A had a removable back cover and I caught the swelling up very fast because as soon as it started to bloat up the back cover literally popped off about 4 inches above my desk and landed on my keyboard. I of course took the battery out immediately and put it in a small ceramic box my Wife had laying around, nothing else happened and I ended up taking it to a local battery store here in Las Vegas and turning it in for safe destruction.
See, there really is a good reason to have removable batteries and removable back covers on some devices.
Or do you rather think that the failure rate being so low it's rather silly to worry about it?
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Click to collapse
As stated above, I don't believe the actual point of failure with the Note 7 is the battery directly - the burning up and explosions of the battery cells is the effect, not the cause. Something is happening to cause the battery (now two different ones, which most of us know about now) to fail.
Now it remains to be seen if the cause can be determined for the failures.
There is one other, perhaps more placebo induced effect, routine I'd do every once in a while, related to battery calibration. So I'd let the battery go as low as can possibly go, or let it turn off by itself, charge at cold until 100% then power on while still plugged in and finally unplug when os fully booted up.
Is this still a proper thing to do or it rather stresses the battery uselessly?
After I got this GS7A I did allow it to run down entirely till it shut off once, just one time and I actually got concerned because when I then plugged in the charger all I got on the display was a battery outline (the white battery icon that's hollowed out) and I was expecting the lightning-bolt symbol to appear there to indicate yes it's charging, after which it should change into the progress meter along the inside bottom of the icon.
That didn't happen.
So I sat there waiting. 5 minutes went by, then about 10 minutes, and I started to worry that perhaps I'd just killed it completely. But about 11 minutes after I plugged in the charger the lightning bolt appeared for about 10 seconds, flashing a few times, then I saw a thin green line across the bottom. Success!
But it did pretty much scare me for a few minutes at the thought of potentially ruining it by doing that so, I don't intend to ever let that happen. Your practice you mentioned of using Tasker to shut down at 5% (not a complete discharge like I did that one time) and to stop charging at 95% is a good idea and something I'm going to have to do more research into.
I've spent a lot of time over the years reading research papers at Battery University and I know that full discharge of a Li-Ion cell is a bad idea but I still ended up doing it. I was actually trying to capture a screenshot at 1% then I planned to initiate a shutdown immediately after that but taking the screenshot just killed it, oops.
But the idea of shutdown at maybe 4% and stopping the charging at 95% (or at least providing me with some kind of alert I can hear clearly and charge or disconnect as required) is a very good idea so thanks for mentioning that.
My research and understanding of the available info at Battery University is that it's better to do your best to not let a Li-Ion cell go below at least 30-40% charged most of the time with short periods of charging to bring it back up to the 90-95% point and, and occasionally - like maybe once a month - allow it to go deeper into the discharge state but not fully (I learned my lesson on that one) and then charge it back to full. The question is what that "full" point might be because some papers say charging Li-Ion to full capacity ruins them as time passes and other papers say it's just fine to do so occasionally - the problem is there's no absolute consensus on either method.
The deep discharge method once a month might work better as a method of calibrating (?!?!) but I honestly don't know for sure, not sure anyone does. But I think I'm going to start using Tasker for that 4-5% shutdown and 95% top off point on my Active, it sure can't actually hurt the device and could give me longer battery lifespan or should I say longevity as you did - that word actually seems more appropriate because most folks hear "battery lifespan" and they only understand that to mean how long it runs on a single charge which isn't the meaning I'm trying to get across.
all i can say after this incident , my knowledge of ion battery deepen and yes in case of emergency , you cant remove if its seal tight shut inside , something to consider , Samsung .
for me, no it's not made me more wary, I always am re Li cells as there have been many failures not only in phones. I have laptops, eCigs, torches etc that all use Li cells. That said, I use the devices as "normal" but stay aware of how warm they've gotten in charge/use, try to not drop them or leave them on/in a source of external heating etc. Anything containing combustible material can go bang after all. A disposable lighter left on an iron fireplace with the fire burning goes bang very well indeed, as would one of these cells in the same circumstances
I tend to top off the charge regularly since I have Qi chargers on my desk and in the car holder but never charge overnight while I sleep. I'd guess my operating capacity ranges from 100% down to maybe 30% and mainly hanging in the 60-80% range as the device tops up. SatNav tends to mean in-car the device only gathers a minor gain even over a couple hours use as the draw from the screen/cpu offsets the input from the Qi charger plate. The phone of course gets warm in this mode, hence it is set halfway down on the centre dash rather than up high and in the sun. And no I'm not always looking at it - voice guidance is very handy
On charge levels, I've also read a number of articles on various cell types. Typically the recommendations are that Li cells effectively eat themselves if kept at 100%, degrading and losing capacity over time. Hence its best if storing them to have them at 50-70% and not fully charged. Of course whether the phone actually takes the cell to its 100% limit or its charge management calls 100% at the 95% of cell capacity I don't know. When fully discharge has happened then yes it does seem to take longer for the charge icon to start ticking along, seen the same on the old iPad-1 I have, probably because the initial part has to be a very slow energising charge to get the cell to a point when it can accept more current and maybe the icon only shows rates above a certain current.
re the swelling cell. I've not used non-Samsung cells in my note 1/3 or S2 but have seen Sammy's cells also swell when they get to end of life. Both notes had this happen around the 18-26 month mark but not to the extent of the back popping off/open. Dramatic shortening of on-battery runtime yes, but from the outside no real visible indications that anything was up.
NO, LiPo, and Li ion batts are everywhere why worry about, I have had dozens of LiPo an LiOn powered devices
What about Li-On batteries though?
Hasn't changed for me either. But it has made me more wary of Samsung devices. There no way I'm getting the s8 (or note 8) no matter how great the features are. They can't even figure out what's wrong with the note 7.. Who's to say their upcoming phones won't have the same problem.
The only thing that worries me is that it may become even harder to get batteries and such shipped to Hawaii, it's horrible.
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