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Hi all,
I followed this thread (http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1626895) for returning to stock 4.0.4. All went good, but now my camera and youtube app don't work.
I also installed JB through OTA, but the problem still here.
Now I've followed all the step again, but I have the same problem yet. :/
I read around that it can be related to a wrong build.prop, but my system now is a virgin YAKJU, nothing modified..
What can be the problem? It's an hardware fault??
edit: noone of the camera applications in market work :/
thank you for your help
diaSalvatore said:
Hi all,
I followed this thread (http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1626895) for returning to stock 4.0.4. All went good, but now my camera and youtube app don't work.
I also installed JB through OTA, but the problem still here.
Now I've followed all the step again, but I have the same problem yet. :/
I read around that it can be related to a wrong build.prop, but my system now is a virgin YAKJU, nothing modified..
What can be the problem? It's an hardware fault??
thank you for your help
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ever done a super wipe?
animal24 said:
Ever done a super wipe?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What is a super wipe?
I tried to wipe, wipe dalvik cache, and restore factory data with CWM, but without results. Furthermore the method I've followed has already wiped all.
I have to do anything else?
animal24 said:
Ever done a super wipe?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I looked for superwipe and I found a script provided by android revolution hd (http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1361348) I tried it, but still doesn't work.. ://
diaSalvatore said:
I looked for superwipe and I found a script provided by android revolution hd (http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1361348) I tried it, but still doesn't work.. ://
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Are you installing apps first? are you sure your doing full factory image for your hardware? another thing I'd try is booting into clockwork without installing it, from boot loader and formatting /system. Then do factory image.
I have a similar problem, where my camera and the google talk app (for some reason) won't work. I posted about this about a week ago, but received no useful responses, which probably means this is an extremely rare problem. Superwipe didn't work for me, so if you haven't done so yet, save yourself some time. I haven't time reverting the phone to stock, and that's about all I haven't tried.
daedalusbound said:
I have a similar problem, where my camera and the google talk app (for some reason) won't work. I posted about this about a week ago, but received no useful responses, which probably means this is an extremely rare problem. Superwipe didn't work for me, so if you haven't done so yet, save yourself some time. I haven't time reverting the phone to stock, and that's about all I haven't tried.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I tried almost everything: all kind of wipe (also superwipe), format, CWM (also last one, 6.0.0.5), TWRP, stock yakju from google dev, stock upgrade to JB, some JB rom.. nothing.
Now I'm convinced that is an hardware problem, it happened after a flash (to stock rom), but I think is a coincidence.
GTalk works for me.
Camera doesn't work, it goes in timeout.
Same thing with youtube (app starts, but when I select a video, it doesn't start, maybe youtube launch an intent for check camera availability, or something like).
Also other camera application from market don't work, and so application which use the camera light.
Another strange thing is that some times, when I turn on the phone, it doesn't start on first boot, but it restart once or twice and then boot.
If someone has a good advice, I'm happy to hear.
thank you again :/
having the same problems as u do.
Had similar issue and also couldnt save web images, followed @ickboblikescheese advice from paranoid android thread, use a root explorer to go into system/apps and delete quicksearchbox.apk then download google search from playstore and install. After a reboot i had full functionality of camera etc restored. Dunno if it will work for yas but probably worth a try
sent via xda premium from starkissed noozxoide maguro gnex paranoid beta9.5
buddy, do u mind sharing me the post link
For the past week or so, Ive noticed that sometimes when I am sending or receiving texts. My text message threads that are normally shown will just suddenly dissapear. Without me being able to access my incoming messages or send out any messages. When I try to send a message It freezes up then just crashes with a force close report and says sms content observer on null or something like that. I am running wicked 9.1 at the moment but this was also happening to me on hyperdrive and synergyrom as well. If I reboot my threads reappear and i am able to send and receive messages again. Anyone else had this issue or know what I may be able to do too fix?
Same **** is killing me. I have that in every ROM i tried. Now it happens everyday
Did you do a full wipe between roms? I'm thinking database corruption. I would be curious to know if the same happens if you are using a 3rd party messaging app.
Like this
Aerowinder said:
Did you do a full wipe between roms? I'm thinking database corruption. I would be curious to know if the same happens if you are using a 3rd party messaging app.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do full wipe everytime i flash new Roms and i got this even after i odin to stock and reflash roms.
Aerowinder said:
Did you do a full wipe between roms? I'm thinking database corruption. I would be curious to know if the same happens if you are using a 3rd party messaging app.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I always do a full wipe but I use CWM instead twrp so I dont format system. I usually just factory reset twice, wipe cache and dalvik and battery stats. I thought about going back to handcent to see if that would help but havent yet, Ill give that a try.
bikrame said:
Like this
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes exactly like that. After that pops up my threads are gone and messaging app just freezes up until reboot. Very annoying!!
kbeezy2686 said:
I always do a full wipe but I use CWM instead twrp so I dont format system. I usually just factory reset twice, wipe cache and dalvik and battery stats. I thought about going back to handcent to see if that would help but havent yet, Ill give that a try.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Dont even try it will not help lol. I have done that too. I wipe my ststem everytime but it will not help.
What exactly does the format system do anyway. Does it erase your sd card or backed up apps in titanium backup?
kbeezy2686 said:
What exactly does the format system do anyway. Does it erase your sd card or backed up apps in titanium backup?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Deletes the operating system. Nothing more.
Are there any effects from doing that or not doing that?
Probably not.
If you Odin to stock UVDLJC, then do a factory reset with the stock recovery, does the issue persist?
Aerowinder said:
Probably not.
If you Odin to stock UVDLJC, then do a factory reset with the stock recovery, does the issue persist?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes.
I just read in different websites its an unsolved issue of samsung phone. So its a manufacturers bug.
bikrame said:
Yes.
I just read in different websites its an unsolved issue of samsung phone. So its a manufacturers bug.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
so if thats the case does that mean that there is no fix for it?
I find it odd that it just all of a sudden started doing this though.
Yes. Right now we have to live with it.
I guess only few people have it.
Ok well thanks for your help
I'm having this same problem. Has anybody found a fix? Thanks!
jeremy108 said:
I'm having this same problem. Has anybody found a fix? Thanks!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have had this happen to me, had to send my phone back for warranty replacement. Something with the software after you wipe and install a custom rom. Even after I reverted to stock, still had the same situation. Got my phone from tmo a couple days later. Also charged me 20 bucks for the warranty replacement which is bs. Technically their software failed, why am I paying for my warranty? I can see not paying another 300-400, but that's ridiculous. Just triangle away and odin stock. Then do a factory reset. If it doesn't work then, get a replacement. Good luck
Sent from my SGH-T999
Sorry if im a total noob at posting but spare me, when I have a chance ill change the specifics and have it in the appropriate forum but at the moment let me describe the issue at hand. Im currently using hyperdrive on my sprint galaxy s3 and at least more than 8 times a day I open a simple app or attempt to multitask. The phone freezes and I have to keep rebooting and rebooting until it finally works. Has anyone other than me had this issue?
Sent from my SPH-L710 using xda app-developers app
Anthonyl123 said:
Sorry if im a total noob at posting but spare me, when I have a chance ill change the specifics and have it in the appropriate forum but at the moment let me describe the issue at hand. Im currently using hyperdrive on my sprint galaxy s3 and at least more than 8 times a day I open a simple app or attempt to multitask. The phone freezes and I have to keep rebooting and rebooting until it finally works. Has anyone other than me had this issue?
Sent from my SPH-L710 using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Switch ROMs.
Maybe your phone just doesn't play nice with the Hyperdrive ROM. Try out a new one, or do a clean install of it and see if that fixes it!
Switch ROMs?
Well, I suppose it's a fix.
The thing is, what if you want Hyperdrive to work?
I have been getting random reboots, which led to boot looping. I have done a clean re-install, but mysteriously lost the multi-view launcher.
Any ideas? Besides switching ROMS...
Mr._Happy said:
Switch ROMs?
Well, I suppose it's a fix.
The thing is, what if you want Hyperdrive to work?
I have been getting random reboots, which led to boot looping. I have done a clean re-install, but mysteriously lost the multi-view launcher.
Any ideas? Besides switching ROMS...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The difficult thing when trying to troubleshoot Roms like Hyperdrive is that unless you document exactly what option you chose (which kernel, mod, theme, etc) in the Aroma installer, it'll be difficult to replicate your specific situation. Do you happen to know which settings you chose (maybe walk us through page-by-page in Aroma). Than we'd be able to help troubleshoot what's going on in your phone.
That being said, I'll walk you through some generic fixes for reboots/bootloops. You can try each one in order, and if #1 doesn't work, try #2, so on and so forth. They may work, but no guarantee.
Clear Cache & Dalvik Cache: This probably won't help, but there's a long shot that it would.
Fix permissions in TWRP or CWM: If it's a system app that somehow got installed incorrectly, this will help fix that issue.
Reinstall the Rom with a "so fresh and so clean clean" wipe: Wipe Cache, Dalvik Cache, /data, and /system. Make sure your rom zip file is in an accessible location, because wiping system erases your system (you won't be able to boot).
Reinstall the Rom without any mods: If you really want to take the time to flash the Rom multiple times, I'd say flash the Rom without any major mods. If nothing is broken, you can reinstall it again (after a so-fresh-and-so-clean-clean wipe) with another mod installed. It might takes hours, but if there's something inherently broken in the ROM, you'd be able to find the culprit if you do it this way.
Do not restore apps/data from TiBu: A lot of people have had issues because they've restored system apps/data through Titanium backup (TiBu). I still use TiBu for a lot of my backup needs, but I never restore system apps with it.
That's all I really got in terms of fixing the problem. I hope you can get your phone working the way you like.
topherk said:
The difficult thing when trying to troubleshoot Roms like Hyperdrive is that unless you document exactly what option you chose (which kernel, mod, theme, etc) in the Aroma installer, it'll be difficult to replicate your specific situation. Do you happen to know which settings you chose (maybe walk us through page-by-page in Aroma). Than we'd be able to help troubleshoot what's going on in your phone.
That being said, I'll walk you through some generic fixes for reboots/bootloops. You can try each one in order, and if #1 doesn't work, try #2, so on and so forth. They may work, but no guarantee.
Clear Cache & Dalvik Cache: This probably won't help, but there's a long shot that it would.
Fix permissions in TWRP or CWM: If it's a system app that somehow got installed incorrectly, this will help fix that issue.
Reinstall the Rom with a "so fresh and so clean clean" wipe: Wipe Cache, Dalvik Cache, /data, and /system. Make sure your rom zip file is in an accessible location, because wiping system erases your system (you won't be able to boot).
Reinstall the Rom without any mods: If you really want to take the time to flash the Rom multiple times, I'd say flash the Rom without any major mods. If nothing is broken, you can reinstall it again (after a so-fresh-and-so-clean-clean wipe) with another mod installed. It might takes hours, but if there's something inherently broken in the ROM, you'd be able to find the culprit if you do it this way.
Do not restore apps/data from TiBu: A lot of people have had issues because they've restored system apps/data through Titanium backup (TiBu). I still use TiBu for a lot of my backup needs, but I never restore system apps with it.
That's all I really got in terms of fixing the problem. I hope you can get your phone working the way you like.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ive done options 1 and 2 but here is what I have installed on my phone
When I ran the aroma installer I chose the option to run a full installation with the devs choice of mods and stuff etc. So I have the tw launcher installed along with the multiwindow mod and pretty much everything else.
Sent from my SPH-L710 using xda app-developers app
I have been having this annoying problem since day 1 and cannot get an answer to it. Even google has failed me. So, whenever I choose app defaults (like launcher or different sms app, etc) they stick as defaults until I reboot. When I reboot, it asks me again for each one. I have this same problem whether I am rooted or not, have had it with stock roms, etc. Why is this happening? It is very frustrating.
Wow... no one else is having this problem? Should I return it for exchange? It seems like a software glitch, but a factory reset doesn't fix it.
Still having this issue. Is no one else having it? Are there file permissions I can check? Is there a file not properly getting saved which holds defaults? I hate having to constantly remind my phone which apps to use for what.
What Rom are you on ? Are you doing a Clean Install ?
prboy1969 said:
What Rom are you on ? Are you doing a Clean Install ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As I stated in the OP, on every ROM, rooted or not. I have done a wipe with every ROM I have used. Even occurs when I do a factory reset with a stock rom. Fix permissions does not help either.
I have a sneaking suspicion that there is no such thing as a full factory reset.
edufur said:
As I stated in the OP, on every ROM, rooted or not. I have done a wipe with every ROM I have used. Even occurs when I do a factory reset with a stock rom. Fix permissions does not help either.
I have a sneaking suspicion that there is no such thing as a full factory reset.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Did you try wiping /system prior to flashing the various ROMs? Typically when someone does a factory reset, it means they are clearing /data and the caches. It sounds to me like something is messed up in your /system partition, which might be persistent across ROMs.
topherk said:
Did you try wiping /system prior to flashing the various ROMs? Typically when someone does a factory reset, it means they are clearing /data and the caches. It sounds to me like something is messed up in your /system partition, which might be persistent across ROMs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes... full wipe before each rom... and full wipes after factory resets.
does anyone know which file is responsible for storing app defaults? I'd like to take a look and see if it is getting overwritten, or what the deal might be. This is an annoying problem. Having to keep selecting my video player, launcher, etc.
edufur said:
Yes... full wipe before each rom... and full wipes after factory resets.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
By " Full Wipes " . Do you mean you wiped System, Data, Cache, Dalvik, and a Factory Reset ?
prboy1969 said:
By " Full Wipes " . Do you mean you wiped System, Data, Cache, Dalvik, and a Factory Reset ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes... e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g
I have fully wiped (yes all of it) prior to a stock rom install... and factory reset plus fully wiped (yes all of it) after a stock rom install.
yes... wiped to the point of losing ALL- ALL--ALL data. I have taken this thing down clean.
I have one-clicked, standard odin'd, kies, dialer pad reset, recovery mode reset, settings reset....
Every time... I am able to get back to stock clean... but nothing is resolving to the point where app defaults will start behaving. They arent behaving.
I lose them after every reboot.
app defaults not sticking on reboot
I am also having this problem on my Sprint SGS3 (not rooted).
Can you post a Screen Shot of the Pop Up you see when the issue occurs ?
prboy1969 said:
Can you post a Screen Shot of the Pop Up you see when the issue occurs ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't understand why you need that. KnishKnosh understands what the issue is. Are you not understanding what I am describing?
Surely you have seen this phenomenon before. Whenever there are multiple apps to accomplish a task (i.e. browsing, launching, texting, etc), it will ask you which app you want to use. You then choose an app and tell it to always use it or to use it just once. What I am saying is that even when I choose "always," it only sticks until I reboot.... then it asks again. This is not normal behavior.
I have the same issue as well Edufur, So you're not alone.
Usually my problem is Home Launchers not sticking on reboot.
And coincidentally its all the home launcher apps i paid for pro excluding Holo Launcher and Nova.
Apex Pro, LauncherPro+, ADWLauncher Ex are the ones for me that always resets its default status for being home.
There's a lot of people that has this problem and there hasn't been a fix for it.
Its more like a Device Compatibility issue for certain applications to me then anything else.
Because my friends LG OG doesn't have these issues.
edufur said:
I don't understand why you need that. KnishKnosh understands what the issue is. Are you not understanding what I am describing?
Surely you have seen this phenomenon before. Whenever there are multiple apps to accomplish a task (i.e. browsing, launching, texting, etc), it will ask you which app you want to use. You then choose an app and tell it to always use it or to use it just once. What I am saying is that even when I choose "always," it only sticks until I reboot.... then it asks again. This is not normal behavior.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I want to see your issue resolved. That is why I am asking all the questions, and for more information. I do not have the Device in front of me. So I must ask questions in order to help track down the issue. Yes I have seen the issue before. Spark91 brings up an interesting question. Are you using the Stock TW Launcher, or a different one ?
i uploaded scrernshot. hope it helps. thanks.
First thing is please edit that pic . So you Tap Always and after a Reboot it just asks again ? Has it always been that way ? You mentioned it was only on certain Launchers. Does it do the same thing on the TouchWiz Launcher ?
prboy1969 said:
First thing is please edit that pic . So you Tap Always and after a Reboot it just asks again ? Has it always been that way ? You mentioned it was only on certain Launchers. Does it do the same thing on the TouchWiz Launcher ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So it looks like he is experiencing the same thing as me. Yes, that is what happens. And even when I click "Always," it only sticks until the next reboot... and then it happens again. Yes, it has been like this ever since I bought the device (and even before rooting). Yes... it continues to be a problem even after factory resets / multiple wipes / all ROMS / full clears (including internal storage)... yes FULL wipes... before and after flashing new roms, stock roms, all of it. Sorry... but I am trying to be as clear as I can on this because it seems like people keep asking the same basic questions. No one seems to have a clue about this problem... it is nice to know though, that I am not alone with this problem.
So it looks like this problem even exists for other Galaxy products. I never realized this before but my GF has the Epic 4G Touch (galaxy s2) and it has the same issue. How is it that this isn't a big concern for people?
edufur said:
So it looks like this problem even exists for other Galaxy products. I never realized this before but my GF has the Epic 4G Touch (galaxy s2) and it has the same issue. How is it that this isn't a big concern for people?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because it sticks for everyone else. Like me.
I searched for something like this, but couldnt find anything. Ive been flashing between different Roms since I got my phone, and wanted tosee if there was something that I could flash to wipe away all the gremlins from previous Roms. I still do a clean flash and wipe dalvik, cache, and factory reset. But ive been noticing little issues here and there.
itsLYNDZ said:
I searched for something like this, but couldnt find anything. Ive been flashing between different Roms since I got my phone, and wanted tosee if there was something that I could flash to wipe away all the gremlins from previous Roms. I still do a clean flash and wipe dalvik, cache, and factory reset. But ive been noticing little issues here and there.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well There isn't one as such. Typically what I do is.
1. Factory Reset
2. Wipe Dalvik, Cache and sometimes /Data
3. Flash the Rom & Gapps.
4. Reboot Setup everything
5. Reboot Again to Recovery and then wipe Dalvik+Cache and then flash custom Kernel if I wanted.
I may skip Step 5 if I want to stick with Rom's own kernel. I know you went through this, I just wanted to specify the sequence. If you still have issues then post them on the new rom's thread.
Perseus71 said:
Well There isn't one as such. Typically what I do is.
1. Factory Reset
2. Wipe Dalvik, Cache and sometimes /Data
3. Flash the Rom & Gapps.
4. Reboot Setup everything
5. Reboot Again to Recovery and then wipe Dalvik+Cache and then flash custom Kernel if I wanted.
I may skip Step 5 if I want to stick with Rom's own kernel. I know you went through this, I just wanted to specify the sequence. If you still have issues then post them on the new rom's thread.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks. I know on the SGS Blaze 4G someone developed a gremlin cleaner that you could flash along with wiping everything manually. Just wondered if there was one for the S3. Im using Goosh rom, but it looks like the developer dropped support.
itsLYNDZ said:
Thanks. I know on the SGS Blaze 4G someone developed a gremlin cleaner that you could flash along with wiping everything manually. Just wondered if there was one for the S3. Im using Goosh rom, but it looks like the developer dropped support.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Take a look at this thread. Hope it helps.
itsLYNDZ said:
I searched for something like this, but couldnt find anything. Ive been flashing between different Roms since I got my phone, and wanted tosee if there was something that I could flash to wipe away all the gremlins from previous Roms. I still do a clean flash and wipe dalvik, cache, and factory reset. But ive been noticing little issues here and there.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What little issues and on which ROMs? It matters.
Factory reset wipes data and cache. Dalvik cache is on the data partition, isn't it?
So factory reset, wipe system. Should be all you need to do.
Aerowinder said:
What little issues and on which ROMs? It matters.
Factory reset wipes data and cache. Dalvik cache is on the data partition, isn't it?
So factory reset, wipe system. Should be all you need to do.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ive been reflashing Goosh rom, but after 2-3 months or so I have to reflash it because it slows down and starts to have issues. Havent installed or updated any apps. I dont have many and I know they can affect it. So thats when ive been doing. I really like the rom and get great battery life, but the dev has dropped support for it. Even to tell me to "use a different ROM" because he doesnt care. But each time I reflash it after a couple months, it doesnt seem to work as well as the very first flash from when I first got the phone. I feel like things are building up/not getting completely wiped.
itsLYNDZ said:
Ive been reflashing Goosh rom, but after 2-3 months or so I have to reflash it because it slows down and starts to have issues. Havent installed or updated any apps. I dont have many and I know they can affect it. So thats when ive been doing. I really like the rom and get great battery life, but the dev has dropped support for it. Even to tell me to "use a different ROM" because he doesnt care
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Please try Auto Memory Manager on most aggressive setting. Check and see how things go. If you see FCs then dial back to medium.
On a side note, Better Battery life ? See these Screenshots for Battery life of other roms to compare/
itsLYNDZ said:
Ive been reflashing Goosh rom, but after 2-3 months or so I have to reflash it because it slows down and starts to have issues. Havent installed or updated any apps. I dont have many and I know they can affect it. So thats when ive been doing. I really like the rom and get great battery life, but the dev has dropped support for it. Even to tell me to "use a different ROM" because he doesnt care. But each time I reflash it after a couple months, it doesnt seem to work as well as the very first flash from when I first got the phone. I feel like things are building up/not getting completely wiped.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Unless you're completely wiping everything, including internal sd, then there will of course be lingering data. But consider doing a true factory reset, which formats /data. From a custom recovery, it doesn't format because it's preserving your internal sd data. You'll have to specifically choose Format Data from within the recovery.
Something else you can try is in Settings, Developer Options, at the bottom choose Limit Background processes and I would select 3 to start. If it doesn't help much go to 2 and test.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk
Perseus71 said:
Please try Auto Memory Manager on most aggressive setting. Check and see how things go. If you see FCs then dial back to medium.
On a side note, Better Battery life ? See these Screenshots for Battery life of other roms to compare/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I cant find the screen shots on that page :/ I would like to see a comparison of battery life between roms.
itsLYNDZ said:
I cant find the screen shots on that page :/ I would like to see a comparison of battery life between roms.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I had linked another post of mine here on XDA. Are you sure in the entire post you didn't see linked screenshots ?
There's one set near the top and bellow that there is "Hide Button" which hides my own set.
Here is a Direct Link and the other shot.
Perseus71 said:
I had linked another post of mine here on XDA. Are you sure in the entire post you didn't see linked screenshots ?
There's one set near the top and bellow that there is "Hide Button" which hides my own set.
Here is a Direct Link and the other shot.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, but I did read how to use Greenify to control Google Service Framework from that thread... Didnt see any screenshots..
itsLYNDZ said:
No, but I did read how to use Greenify to control Google Service Framework from that thread... Didnt see any screenshots..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You probably clicked on a link in the post that took you to the GSF related Thread.
Also in my last post I linked 2 screenshots. Were they not accessible ?
Please visit This thread. You are interested in Post # 11.
Perseus71 said:
I had linked another post of mine here on XDA. Are you sure in the entire post you didn't see linked screenshots ?
There's one set near the top and bellow that there is "Hide Button" which hides my own set.
Here is a Direct Link and the other shot.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can you tell me what Rom was being used in this screenshot that you linked to? I would like to stay with a TW rom.... Also, does it matter if I flash via TWRP or CWM? Im so used to CWM....