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Hi Guys!
I have been searching for days if someone has managed to install a clean google rom on his HTC Hero. I can only find people running rooted Hero Roms.
The point is, i want to get rid of all the HTC Apps. I've managed to delete a lot of the stock applications, and it improved the speed a lot!
If i install any other "Magic based rom" the phone will hang on the HTC boot screen.
If i push original google apps like "contacts.apk/.odex" to the phone, they won't run.
Can someone port the original Magic/ION rom to the Hero please? I know a lot of people want to run a "clean android" rom on the hero.
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My phone is rooted now with Modaco / CyanogenMod v1.4 + JF.
sonny88 said:
Hi Guys!
I have been searching for days if someone has managed to install a clean google rom on his HTC Hero. I can only find people running rooted Hero Roms.
The point is, i want to get rid of all the HTC Apps. I've managed to delete a lot of the stock applications, and it improved the speed a lot!
If i install any other "Magic based rom" the phone will hang on the HTC boot screen.
If i push original google apps like "contacts.apk/.odex" to the phone, they won't run.
Can someone port the original Magic/ION rom to the Hero please? I know a lot of people want to run a "clean android" rom on the hero.
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My phone is rooted now with Modaco / CyanogenMod v1.4 + JF.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I cannot see the point why someone would want that . No offense , i mean all the HTC customisation and Rosie was the whole point in buying this device instead of the HTC Magic( which has the exact same specifications and a way lot cheaper)
deeren said:
I cannot see the point why someone would want that . No offense , i mean all the HTC customisation and Rosie was the whole point in buying this device instead of the HTC Magic( which has the exact same specifications and a way lot cheaper)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To be honest, i don't really know why i bought the hero. I didn't know much about android at the time i bought one. Now i know better, but anyway, that's not what i want to discuss..
The magic can almost run any rom, why can't the hero run any rom i want?
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Please people, i don't want to be a jerk, but don't come up with questions like "Why did you buy a hero then?" ..
sonny88 said:
To be honest, i don't really know why i bought the hero. I didn't know much about android at the time i bought one. Now i know better, but anyway, that's not what i want to discuss..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm on the same boat. When I bought my hero I hadn't really seen any working Android phone, either stock or HTC. Now that I have seen both I think that the stock apps and interface are somehow saner than HTC's, and what can I say? I'd prefer to use them.
Why don't you run the Rosie remover. It will get you part of the way to where you want to go
Indeed! but I also prefer the stock browser, the stock music player, the stock calendar, the stock contact list and dialer... and so on. They look less flashy but handier to my taste.
I totally agree with, frandavid100. I would also love to have a vanilla android rom on my Hero.
Actually, why do magic roms not work with the hero? What kind of modification would you have to do for them to work?
Fredriksen said:
I totally agree with, frandavid100. I would also love to have a vanilla android rom on my Hero.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think that the hero rom is not like the win rom. i mean all the htc customisations superimposed on the windows ones. There, all we had to do was just to remove the htc ones and we automatically got the windows ones.
I guess android's different. we have to remove all the htc customisations and add android's ones. Problem is hero never had the android's applications. what could be done is take a magic rom, remove all the applications and try to port them to the hero.
Problems would definetely arise cause the 2 phones are not 100% identical. some software work on the magic but not on hero bla bla bla.
I know some stock apps do work with the hero. I have been able to use the stock calendar and browser in my hero by replacing the apk and odex files, however replacing the contacts app makes it hang.
We could try to make a list of what apps can be replaced and how, or maybe even make update.zip files specific for that, similar to modaco's rosie remover. How difficult would that be?
sonny88 said:
The magic can almost run any rom, why can't the hero run any rom i want?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think that you'll probably find that the difference here is that chefs with a Magic or G1 actively want to "upgrade" to the latest and greatest ROMs. So, when presented with a Hero ROM, they will make the effort to back port it to the hardware they have.
The situation with the Hero is a little different. Here we already have the "latest and greatest", so there is probably very little motivation for a chef to port what is essentially an earlier ROM to the Hero. What you need to find is a chef who has a Hero, who either wants to run stock android, or is interesting in the intellectual challenge!
So, it's not really the case that "the magic can almost run any rom" - it's that their are chefs with Magics who are building these ROMs.
Regards,
Dave
Thanks guys!
I knew i wasn't the only one who wanted a clean vanilla android rom on the hero. Like frandavid100 said before, till there's another "magic rom" or something, we could make a list of apps working on hero.
I've had the same thing with the Contacts.app. This makes the phone freeze, and after removing the battery it constantly reboots.
If we all together manage to make a list of apps, i can create an update.zip which does all the work.
sonny88 said:
If we all together manage to make a list of apps, i can create an update.zip which does all the work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Let's do a test. I know you can replace HTC's browser with Android's. I'm attaching the files for both, can you create an update.zip that removes the HTC files from /system/apps, and pushes the stock ones?
EDIT: failed to upload the files to the forum. You can get them here: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=TVL3Y8UE
frandavid100 said:
Let's do a test. I know you can replace HTC's browser with Android's. I'm attaching the files for both, can you create an update.zip that removes the HTC files from /system/apps, and pushes the stock ones?
EDIT: failed to upload the files to the forum. You can get them here: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=TVL3Y8UE
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I will do that tomorrow ok? I live in The Netherlands and its 09.35pm and i'm watching a movie
BTW: I also have a stock Magic/ION image. I can extract the apps from there as well. Tomorrow i'll try some apps.
Thanks for the effort guys!
Just another quick post. Below you'll see a list of apps which i'm going to try tomorrow. Please post request apps if i forget one.
- Contacts (probably doesn't work)
- Phone (unknown - probably same as contacts)
- Browser (probably works)
- Music Player (probably works)
- Messages/sms?
- Camera (unknown)
- Albums (probably no multitouch)
- Camcorder (don't know if this one is available)
- Calender (probably works)
- Calculator (unknown)
- Clock (don't know if this one is available)
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BTW; If you guys want the original android lockscreen, just remove HtcLockScreen.apk/odex. After reboot you'll have the original android lockscreen where you have to press "menu" to unlock. Works faster and ofcourse no lag!
Hey, if you come back during the ads... can you point me to that stock rom? I'd like to try some of those too.
I can advance that Browser and Calendar do work (I'm using them right now).
frandavid100 said:
Hey, if you come back during the ads... can you point me to that stock rom? I'd like to try some of those too.
I can advance that Browser and Calendar do work (I'm using them right now).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am sorry.. i'm at my girlfriend and don't have my laptop with me tomorrow i'll post some links to different roms we can work with. But i can assure you they won't work on the hero.
Im also going to try to port the sapphire keyboard to the hero. Don't know if someone already did this, i haven't used google yet.
Actually, the keyboard is one of the few things I like from HTC's customisations I'll give the sapphire one a try tho!
frandavid100 said:
Actually, the keyboard is one of the few things I like from HTC's customisations I'll give the sapphire one a try tho!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
haha ok lol
I'm going to work on that list now.. wish me luck
sonny88 said:
BTW; If you guys want the original android lockscreen, just remove HtcLockScreen.apk/odex. After reboot you'll have the original android lockscreen where you have to press "menu" to unlock. Works faster and ofcourse no lag!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Or you can just use the HTC lockscreen and press menu twice!
Regards,
Dave
I have seriously tried about 15 different ROMs for my tilt2 and I am about to get rid of it because I can't find a good ROM that has everything I need... So, here is what I need...
Youtube working
Link contacts to facebook
Contact information to save when I put it in
Location service
Ability to get hotmail e-mail on the phone
I think that is it...
Are there any ROM's that work like that?? So far everything I have tried is missing at least one of those capabilities :/ I'm getting very disappointed...
Did you not try the phone out or even read what programs work with it before you bought it?
I find it hard to believe that your phone cannot do what you are suggesting it can't do.
I could do all of that (except the location service) with the stock AT&T rom... However, that ROM was extremely slow and aggravating as well...
I also have an HTC Pure - I found a perfect ROM for that phone that does everything I need it to do...
I just can't find a ROM here for the T2 that does everything I need...
I'm not an idiot, I know what this phone is capable of and if I can't find it in a new ROM here that is better than the stock ROM I will get rid of the phone.
Please don't act like I'm stupid because I'm really not... If you're going to be rude, you don't need to post. Thank you
Hey DillyBar, I have to agree with glcK23 on this one. I don’t think he means to be making any assumptions about your intelligence. All the stable ROMs can do the things you need (which are really basic).
When I say “stable” I mean I’m excluding WinMo 6.5.1 ROMs and those with Manila 2.5. There are known issues with those and you either have to live with them or simply don’t use them.
al the roms are doing what u are looking for.... i dont know if you know what u are talking about??? or maybe u are not using TP2???
I feel like I should know this but for some reason I don't think I do.
Anyhow, just flashed the latest build of CM and I miss the HTC Dialer, keyboard and Messaging app like crazy. Is it possible to just install them without the world ending? Also, does anyone have the apk's for these?
Thanks for any insight.
ths_ said:
I feel like I should know this but for some reason I don't think I do.
Anyhow, just flashed the latest build of CM and I miss the HTC Dialer, keyboard and Messaging app like crazy. Is it possible to just install them without the world ending? Also, does anyone have the apk's for these?
Thanks for any insight.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I searched for an answer to this (I only want the dialer) and found that no one has been successful at parting sense out. It is an all or none type deal. Sucks for me and sucks for you. If anyone knows a comparable dialer with that smart dial thing, give me a heads up. Thanks
-Roger
Most of those apps need Sense to run. I tried installing the stock keyboard and just got force closes. I'm a big fan of Sense, but I'll make the sacrifice for CM. Hopefully when the full release comes out the devs will be able to incorporate some of those apps into CM.
Sent from my CM6'D EVO via XDA App
Thanks for the info guys!
I think a Sense ROM will come using CMs work. CM just doesn't do it because it belongs to HTC. I think maybe s3vo is using CM stuff if not someone else will. I was trying to do it myself I'm just missing something. I'm fairly confident that I will figure it out eventually. Most likely though someone with more knowledge will output one long before I figure it out.
s3vo ROM
http://forum.ppcgeeks.com/showthread.php?t=129115
I have been using OMGBv6 and I like the ROM. I have recently learned how to customize ROMs'by using the guide at The Unlockr. I have a few questions. Do I need permission to use someone else's ROM? Can I just use a stock ROM from any device (i.e. nexus s) and port it to my device. I was not sure if there would be complications going from GSM to CDMA. The video recording is broken in OMGB. I would like to work to fix that. Can someone point me in the direction of how to fix this? I thought this should go in the development section. Sorry if not.
If you are modding things for yourself, you don't need permission. If you are using another ROM to make your "own" to put up, then you def need permission. When in doubt, ask. As far as the fix you are looking for, I have no idea, someone else will have to lend their input.
This will be just for myself. I love Vanilla ROMs and can not seem to find any. Hopefully I can get some help with the other stuff.
Check your inbox i sent you some info
rllong1 said:
This will be just for myself. I love Vanilla ROMs and can not seem to find any. Hopefully I can get some help with the other stuff.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
HTC Incredible OMGB 2.3.1
I have been to his site. I am interested in building my own roms. Not from scratch but for personal use. But thanks
Im sure, if its for personal use and your not trying to pass it of as yours and post it, you should be ok to mod others rom for yourself. Just think of it this way. Google made the os htc made sense and everyone is modding there stuff and releasing it. IMO
Sent from my sexy assistant. (HTC Incredible)
I am just going to use his rom and mod to my liking. I do not plan on releasing to anyone else. Does anyone know if I can use the stock rom from a nexus s and use on my incredible.
I'm not a dev, but pretty sure you can't. The rom is hardware specific. Even porting a rom from the evo, which is very similar to the inc, takes a lot of work.
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Unrevoked forever
SkyRaider Sense 3.5
Radio 2.15.00.09.01
forget it.
I was just using the nexus as an example, I am trying to learn this stuff and am using the kitchen to mod roms to my liking. Any info on fixing things broken on roms such as the recording in omgb
Just as an example. Ruby 2.0 puts a percentage in the battery icon, if I wanted to change the verizon wireless text to something else. Change a lock screen. Simple mods to a rom.
I hope that I'm not speaking out of turn, but I am unable to post in developer thread...SO...I figure this gives me an opportunity to introduce myself during my probationary period, and maybe bring some entertainment to the community through my adventures as a rooting noob.
First off, I decided to root my Evo 4g which I'd kept updated through every OTA the moment it was released. I thought that was the best way to maintain my device, though after the first Gingerbread OTA...I wasn't so sure. For some reason or another, Sense UI would reboot everytime I clicked on the home button. This was obviously annoying, so I looked for alternative launchers.
The only one that I could find at the time was Launcher Pro. I immediately liked the fact that my device seemed to operate normally again, but I wasn't completely satisfied with the lack of customization options. So through some more OTA updates, I finally got one that fixed my Sense problem.
Fast forward to a week ago...I saw that HTC would not be supporting the EVO 4g with an ICS update, yet xda-developers were all over it. Peace out Sprint-HTC...Hello Rooting Community!
Before I continue this journal...I just want to make sure that the Mods/Admins are cool with a guy that is still figuring things out with rooting his own device, sharing some of the highs and lows of the journey from a stock user...to a Rooted Outlaw!!
spyder3 said:
I hope that I'm not speaking out of turn, but I am unable to post in developer thread...SO...I figure this gives me an opportunity to introduce myself during my probationary period, and maybe bring some entertainment to the community through my adventures as a rooting noob.
First off, I decided to root my Evo 4g which I'd kept updated through every OTA the moment it was released. I thought that was the best way to maintain my device, though after the first Gingerbread OTA...I wasn't so sure. For some reason or another, Sense UI would reboot everytime I clicked on the home button. This was obviously annoying, so I looked for alternative launchers.
The only one that I could find at the time was Launcher Pro. I immediately liked the fact that my device seemed to operate normally again, but I wasn't completely satisfied with the lack of customization options. So through some more OTA updates, I finally got one that fixed my Sense problem.
Fast forward to a week ago...I saw that HTC would not be supporting the EVO 4g with an ICS update, yet xda-developers were all over it. Peace out Sprint-HTC...Hello Rooting Community!
Before I continue this journal...I just want to make sure that the Mods/Admins are cool with a guy that is still figuring things out with rooting his own device, sharing some of the highs and lows of the journey from a stock user...to a Rooted Outlaw!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah. Cool, congrats.
But just a word of caution, Developer threads are for developers. That's where ROMs and other software gets posted. So one day, if you are able to post there...do yourself a favor and don't post something like this there. You'll get blasted.
I don't really see a question there which needs to be answered (this is the Q&A forum an all) but I guess it's more appropriate here than in a dev forum. If you want to post in the dev forum, learn to code and write something useful that you want to share.
Am I the only one that has to hit that captcha refresh about a dozen times to find one I can read? lol
Back to where I left off...
So I decided to root my device...starting first with an unrEVOked3 guide. I didn't realize until unrEVOked3 failed to root my device with the message..."Is your device too new?"...that my journey had only just begun. Through a few more failed attempts with unrEVOked, I found myself trying the rEVOlutionary method. Only, I had previously updated my Gingerbread firmware past that point.
5 hours into the process...too much invested to turn back now...must sleep however since it's 5am.
I toss and turn in bed for a good hour, still trying to figure out what to do next. Did I miss a step?
Next night, after a day of staring at my phone and googling "how to root gingerbread evo 4g", I come across the "Rooting Gingerbread for dummies" thread at the Android Forums.
5 hrs later...I'm now rooted, but still watermarked s-on.
What did I do wrong?
Another night of tossing and turning...I must of screwed up one of the Captain Throwback steps...the sun is up, and so is my daughter...I got a couple of hours of sleep. Back to the computer!
sean is here. said:
Yeah. Cool, congrats.
But just a word of caution, Developer threads are for developers. That's where ROMs and other software gets posted. So one day, if you are able to post there...do yourself a favor and don't post something like this there. You'll get blasted.
I don't really see a question there which needs to be answered (this is the Q&A forum an all) but I guess it's more appropriate here than in a dev forum. If you want to post in the dev forum, learn to code and write something useful that you want to share.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for the insight bro!
Not really trying to write development material yet, just post some feedback to one of the roms I'm trying in that developers thread.
I realized after creating this thread that I was in the Q&A section...lol...oh well, not quite the audience I was looking for, but I'm sure someone will find an answer to their questions through one of my own problems with the process.
Funny
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA
So I brew myself a fresh pot of coffee and get back to work (playing with my phone)...
Step-by-step I read back through the Captain's instructions...what did I miss? Is it my phone? Do I need to try the TacoRoot method?
when you run the taco root commands it will make your phone very unstable and not useable...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Uhhh....Alright, back to the Captain!
I'm doing it again...one step at a time. Read everything carefully. No skipping the easy steps that I feel like I've done a dozen times already...adb shell...type EXIT...$
Wait, what? No $, I want #...su...#...cool...EXIT...$?!?
Screw it. The Captain doesn't mention it, so I'm sure it's supposed to happen like that.
Reboot into bootloader...yup, it says locked again...I'm feeling good. Right on track. Why isn't it asking me to update? I never unplugged. The Captain didn't say to unplug...screw it, I'm unplugging. SD card re-mounts..."do you want to start update?"...sweet!
Fast forward through the unrevoked process, and I'm FINALLY rooted!!!
So...now what? lol
I'm gonna Google that..."rooted android now what?" Look at that, someone wrote an article with that same title! Flash Roms, customization, delete bloatware, run root-only apps...
Where to begin...
I first tried the Rom that Captain Throwback has at the end of his thread...I believe MikeG was the developer...CT says with a wink that it will be the last rom I will ever need to flash.
Titanium Backup and Rom Manager are AWESOME programs for the noob rooter. I never felt nervous flashing my first Rom KNOWING that my stuff was backed up, and that someone smarter than me with that device wrote the program that was walking me through the process.
After flashing that first Rom, I was stoked! My phone was running as good as the first day I got it! I immediately starting checking out all of the cool apps that require root access that I could never run before. CPU Master, Wireless Tether, Rom Toolbox...whoa...Rom Toolbox is a kick-ass App! With a capital "A". There is really no need for a few of these other apps that I got since Rom Toolbox does all of that AND MORE.
So I spend about an hour playing with my new apps, and setting up my home screens when I realize...wait a minute...I rooted my phone to get ICS. What am I still doing with froyo?
LOL. Why stop with ICS? you really should try some of the AOSP roms. I am currently running CIUI. very nice smooth rom very lite on space. As for great sense roms... try the Energy sense 3.5 rom release 3/15/12. I used that one and it was awesome but wanted to ditch sense.
dbenney said:
LOL. Why stop with ICS? you really should try some of the AOSP roms. I am currently running CIUI. very nice smooth rom very lite on space. As for great sense roms... try the Energy sense 3.5 rom release 3/15/12. I used that one and it was awesome but wanted to ditch sense.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm done with Sense too. I really like GO Launcher EX. The transition effects appeal to me, and ability to customize nearly everything...icon size, number of pages, item carousel, app folders...I really haven't found something that I want to do that limits me from.
I'll try that Energy sense 3.5 you mentioned though...I'm currently using Alter Rom 0.0.4 pre-release version. It's really nice! Great on battery life, and has that cool TV on/off effect when pressing the power button. I'm still trying to find that option in the settings...lol
Welcome to the dark side... Once you root you never go back to a stock rom....
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1424926
this is my current daily driver... i use go launcher also.. This rom has the tv on off effects on power button presses. One thing to keep in mind with any sense 3.5 rom or aosp miui(ciui) have issues wiht sprint VVM... there is a workaround but I opted for the easy route and just switched to google voice.
Glad you finally decided to root, and glad you got through the instructions relatively unscathed.
Enjoy your custom ROMs, and I'm glad to have been of assistance .
Captain_Throwback said:
Glad you finally decided to root, and glad you got through the instructions relatively unscathed.
Enjoy your custom ROMs, and I'm glad to have been of assistance .
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for writing that guide bro! I thought that all was lost prior to finding it. The step-by-step instructions, complete with screen shots gave me the courage to finally take the leap.
dbenney said:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1424926
this is my current daily driver... i use go launcher also.. This rom has the tv on off effects on power button presses. One thing to keep in mind with any sense 3.5 rom or aosp miui(ciui) have issues wiht sprint VVM... there is a workaround but I opted for the easy route and just switched to google voice.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm loving this Alter Rom right now!
I might not ever go back to Sense, TBH. I'm still looking for a fully functional ICS rom...I've seen a couple that are getting close. With 20k people online at any given time here, I know it's only a matter of time.
When that time comes, I just hope that it's awesome...lol...it would be a bit of a letdown if after anticipating something so much, it turns out not to be that great. Kinda like going downstairs Christmas morning, and finding a stocking full of tube socks.
If I were you, I wouldn't commit to anything too quickly. As they say, there are a lot of fish in the sea! There are a lot of great Sense ROMs out there. I prefer SOS X Odex. Running great, and active development. That's just me though. A lot of people love CyanogenMod, and I'll surely try CM9. Others like MIUI which offers something closer to an iPhone if I'm not mistaken. Never used it. There is even a nice WM7 ROM I saw, but it's not my thing. Experiment with different combinations of ROMs, kernels, settings, mods, and tweaks.
Brilliancy said:
If I were you, I wouldn't commit to anything too quickly. As they say, there are a lot of fish in the sea! There are a lot of great Sense ROMs out there. I prefer SOS X Odex. Running great, and active development. That's just me though. A lot of people love CyanogenMod, and I'll surely try CM9. Others like MIUI which offers something closer to an iPhone if I'm not mistaken. Never used it. There is even a nice WM7 ROM I saw, but it's not my thing. Experiment with different combinations of ROMs, kernels, settings, mods, and tweaks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good point. I can always restore.
I've been reading a lot about kernels...you can only use certain ones with certain roms though, right?
The next mod I want to try is setting up my sd card to ext4. I've backed up my sd on my PC, but I still think that I want to try it out with a fresh sd. I'm rocking that 8gb sd that came stock with the Evo 2yrs ago...so I'm probably more than overdue to upgrade that anyway.
I'll try those three that you mentioned. Thanks for that!
spyder3 said:
Good point. I can always restore.
I've been reading a lot about kernels...you can only use certain ones with certain roms though, right?
The next mod I want to try is setting up my sd card to ext4. I've backed up my sd on my PC, but I still think that I want to try it out with a fresh sd. I'm rocking that 8gb sd that came stock with the Evo 2yrs ago...so I'm probably more than overdue to upgrade that anyway.
I'll try those three that you mentioned. Thanks for that!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
make sure you do the research before you partition that sd card and upgrade it to ext4. I have read, if i remember right that our phones dont support sd-ext4. just remember, with most sense 3.5 or higher roms, you may have trouble finding one that has working WiMax and Sprint VVM. This may have changed, but it was due to no sprint phones having this android version factory installed and they were all ports form other carriers.
spyder3 said:
I'm loving this Alter Rom right now!
I might not ever go back to Sense, TBH. I'm still looking for a fully functional ICS rom...I've seen a couple that are getting close. With 20k people online at any given time here, I know it's only a matter of time.
When that time comes, I just hope that it's awesome...lol...it would be a bit of a letdown if after anticipating something so much, it turns out not to be that great. Kinda like going downstairs Christmas morning, and finding a stocking full of tube socks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You might want to check out Swiper's MIUI ICS? It's an aosp rom and it is one of the few stable ICS roms.
To comment on your posting privileges, I too am on my trial basis. But the thing is i'm not a developer but I have been rooting my evo since I got it at it's release. So i know a few things....I hate i can't post on the developers threads I've helped many via private messaging LOL It's frustrating....
started out using synergy/energy roms, (being more familiar with sense), once i downloaded bw, I had no more need for sense.
(Plug for Deck's ics here) once you go ics, you won't go back.
Regarding your question about kernels, just do the obvious and make sure the kernel is made for that rom (sense kernel for sense rom, aosp for aosp). Other than that, if you read through any development thread, you're most likely going to stumble across which kernels are more successful for each rom. It's usually asked by someone.