Oh hay there,
I've been tasked with making an app for windows 8, that has to fulfill the following specifications.
I've been wondering weather i should use the win RT (metro API) or the windows presentation foundation (WPF) API to do it.
requirements:
Needs to be fast (winRT has a slight edge here due to Ahead of Time compilation, but WPF can be compiled ahead of time too)
Needs to be optimized for touch (it's a draw here, WPF can be made touch friendly and supported touch from day one)
Needs to be able to communicate in background with a number of sensors (WPF has the edge here, as it can access low-level OS components, and is also not restricted should it go to the background)
Needs to be easily modified to support new technologies (This one is a bit tougher. Modifying a winRT app takes a while, it needs around 7 days just to process certification, while an update to WPF can be delivered right away. On the other hand, winRT will probably have high level APIs to handle new technologies, whereas WPF will likely be stuck with the lower end of the API, which will make it harder to modify, especially to those not familiar with windows/.net architecture.)
Needs to run on tablet (WinRT has the edge, as it can run on arm-based tablets as well).
Needs to communicate via NFC, get GPS coordinates and take pictures (WPF can do this, but again, it has lower level APIs, which might be hard to adapt in the future)
Needs to be resilient to outside tampering (virus, trojan, malware etc)(WPF is not 100% sandboxed, it has nice runtime security, but the files it creates are not protected, winRT has the edge here)
I need some opinions. I will make my own decision, but I would like to hear some of your opinions first.
Don't ask what the app does, I'm not gonna tell you.
One thing that immediately stands out, GPS. Is this using the tablets integral GPS, a USB unit or a serial/bluetooth unit? If its not integral or USB (and even then, some USB ones are USB>serial adaptors followed by a serial unit) then WinRT wont function with it. You dont get any access to serial ports, parallel ports or the onboard i2c interface via WinRT. Everything is a higher level abstraction wrapping up low level functionality, you get not raw access to it yourself. Most of these tablets out will be using a serial GPS as that is what is most common (or possibly an i2c one but thats something I have never seen before) and WinRT will provide a nice set of wrappers to let you interface with the integral GPS only, but it wont give access to the serial port or the bluetooth serial profile which means it will ignore bluetooth, external serial or certain USB GPS devices. So yes, WPF would certainly have the edge there. But if we are just talking the GPS chip built into the tablet, WinRT will suffice and provides easy access to all onboard sensors, its only external ones that will cause headaches.
WinRT vs regular .NET speed wise likely wont make much difference. I'm not sure that WinRT is fully AoT dependant for its apps (except C/C++), I think it still falls back on .NET, and even if it is AoT the .NET JIT is almost as effective (and with some kludging can be set to AoT I think, mono certainly can and can cope with WPF applications).
I dont own a tablet so cant say too much on touch, I have only handled display model tablets. Tbh, I found most desktop apps annoying on tablets. even if you enlarge buttons and fonts to make them more touch friendly you can run into additional issues, a menu thats too long to fit on screen cant necessarily be scrolled with a touch friendly gesture (well, you can try, but your probably going to have to write some of your own code, might not be that hard actually, I havent tried). If the app is purely meant for touch then I would go WinRT unless there is a specific reason not to.
Updating taking 7 days I dont see as a major problem, everyone else does it and on numerous platforms. It may well take 1 day to integrate a new tech into a WinRT app and 2 weeks on the WPF app in which case the WinRT guys still get the new tech before WPF, or vice versa is equally likely.
NFC communications, GPS and cameras are all easily done in WinRT (with the previous restriction, device only, non external, I assume a webcam works though).
WinRT is probably the more secure option too.
If I were you I would write down each little thing the app needs to do in order to function, ie access a specific type of GPS (you already said you wont share, thats fine). Then go down the list and start ticking off which ones WinRT has the technology to do. We can pretty much assume that eventually WPF will also do it so there is little reason for a WPF checklist. If you get to the bottom of the list and WinRT is fully ticked off, then go with a WinRT app. If there are a few things missing, well then start to weigh up whether it would be better to try and get a WPF app playing nicely with touch and implementing a few things at a lower level or alter the design specification to fit WinRT, I assume there is a client involved here, if there are issues sit down with them and discuss your thoughts and see if they are happy with changes to go one way or the other.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
One thing that immediately stands out, GPS. Is this using the tablets integral GPS, a USB unit or a serial/bluetooth unit? If its not integral or USB (and even then, some USB ones are USB>serial adaptors followed by a serial unit) then WinRT wont function with it. You dont get any access to serial ports, parallel ports or the onboard i2c interface via WinRT. Everything is a higher level abstraction wrapping up low level functionality, you get not raw access to it yourself. Most of these tablets out will be using a serial GPS as that is what is most common (or possibly an i2c one but thats something I have never seen before) and WinRT will provide a nice set of wrappers to let you interface with the integral GPS only, but it wont give access to the serial port or the bluetooth serial profile which means it will ignore bluetooth, external serial or certain USB GPS devices. So yes, WPF would certainly have the edge there. But if we are just talking the GPS chip built into the tablet, WinRT will suffice and provides easy access to all onboard sensors, its only external ones that will cause headaches.
WinRT vs regular .NET speed wise likely wont make much difference. I'm not sure that WinRT is fully AoT dependant for its apps (except C/C++), I think it still falls back on .NET, and even if it is AoT the .NET JIT is almost as effective (and with some kludging can be set to AoT I think, mono certainly can and can cope with WPF applications).
I dont own a tablet so cant say too much on touch, I have only handled display model tablets. Tbh, I found most desktop apps annoying on tablets. even if you enlarge buttons and fonts to make them more touch friendly you can run into additional issues, a menu thats too long to fit on screen cant necessarily be scrolled with a touch friendly gesture (well, you can try, but your probably going to have to write some of your own code, might not be that hard actually, I havent tried). If the app is purely meant for touch then I would go WinRT unless there is a specific reason not to.
Updating taking 7 days I dont see as a major problem, everyone else does it and on numerous platforms. It may well take 1 day to integrate a new tech into a WinRT app and 2 weeks on the WPF app in which case the WinRT guys still get the new tech before WPF, or vice versa is equally likely.
NFC communications, GPS and cameras are all easily done in WinRT (with the previous restriction, device only, non external, I assume a webcam works though).
WinRT is probably the more secure option too.
If I were you I would write down each little thing the app needs to do in order to function, ie access a specific type of GPS (you already said you wont share, thats fine). Then go down the list and start ticking off which ones WinRT has the technology to do. We can pretty much assume that eventually WPF will also do it so there is little reason for a WPF checklist. If you get to the bottom of the list and WinRT is fully ticked off, then go with a WinRT app. If there are a few things missing, well then start to weigh up whether it would be better to try and get a WPF app playing nicely with touch and implementing a few things at a lower level or alter the design specification to fit WinRT, I assume there is a client involved here, if there are issues sit down with them and discuss your thoughts and see if they are happy with changes to go one way or the other.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for the response
The tablet picked for this job has the following minimum requirements:
Intel z2760 atom processor (apparently, they prefer x86 over ARM)
2 GB of RAM
NFC, GPS, Bluetooth (integrated, as in the tablet has no external USB adapted sensors or something)
mini USB
front camera 2 MP
back camera 8 MP
64GB storage
It's basicaly an asus vivo tab smart.
I suppose the GPS and NFC are built in. I haven't developed much with winRT, so i don't know all the ins and outs.
Btw, did Mono get WPF working? Last time I checked they said WPF was too large scale for them to port.
mcosmin222 said:
Thanks for the response
The tablet picked for this job has the following minimum requirements:
Intel z2760 atom processor (apparently, they prefer x86 over ARM)
2 GB of RAM
NFC, GPS, Bluetooth (integrated, as in the tablet has no external USB adapted sensors or something)
mini USB
front camera 2 MP
back camera 8 MP
64GB storage
It's basicaly an asus vivo tab smart.
I suppose the GPS and NFC are built in. I haven't developed much with winRT, so i don't know all the ins and outs.
Btw, did Mono get WPF working? Last time I checked they said WPF was too large scale for them to port.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think mono on windows gets WPF as it can fall back on the live already there, they haven't got a Linux or mac version for sure though, only winforms although there is a 3rd party lib that gives a few controls which look very much like the WPF counterparts which should work on mono. Or there are .net bindings of QT and GTK.
If its the integral GPS as you say, WinRT should cope absolutely fine. Did some more googling and it seems WinRT will only recognise GPS device with an actual device manager entry, that is what discounts serial devices, it may actually be possible to give a serial device a kick up the backside so its listed in device manager alongside the integrated one but in your case its not needed.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
I think mono on windows gets WPF as it can fall back on the live already there, they haven't got a Linux or mac version for sure though, only winforms although there is a 3rd party lib that gives a few controls which look very much like the WPF counterparts which should work on mono. Or there are .net bindings of QT and GTK.
If its the integral GPS as you say, WinRT should cope absolutely fine. Did some more googling and it seems WinRT will only recognise GPS device with an actual device manager entry, that is what discounts serial devices, it may actually be possible to give a serial device a kick up the backside so its listed in device manager alongside the integrated one but in your case its not needed.
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Click to collapse
Well I heard 8.1 gives winRT extended device driver capabilities.
Maybe it will work fine by then...
SixSixSevenSeven said:
I think mono on windows gets WPF as it can fall back on the live already there, they haven't got a Linux or mac version for sure though, only winforms although there is a 3rd party lib that gives a few controls which look very much like the WPF counterparts which should work on mono. Or there are .net bindings of QT and GTK.
If its the integral GPS as you say, WinRT should cope absolutely fine. Did some more googling and it seems WinRT will only recognise GPS device with an actual device manager entry, that is what discounts serial devices, it may actually be possible to give a serial device a kick up the backside so its listed in device manager alongside the integrated one but in your case its not needed.
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Click to collapse
Well, we decided to go for WPF^^
mcosmin222 said:
Well, we decided to go for WPF^^
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Well, if microsoft gets something right, that is the .net framework.
Kinda funny I can actually call winRT assemblies from WPF(non UI ones ofc).
Related
Full Article
http://justinangel.net/Win81APIs
Bluetooth 4.0 RfComm and GATT support
Point of sale: Barcode scanners and Magnetic card readers
Smart Cards
Lock screen Image Apps
VPN support for Metro apps
Scanner APIs and apps
Support for any External / USB device
Native PDF rendering in apps
Multiple screens projection support in apps
XAML/WinJS: New resolution scaling support / Super-high resolution tablets
Camera: Low-lag cameras / HDR
New Metro App Types: Appointments, LockScreen, Contacts and GeoLoc
New App Type: GeoFenced activation
New App Type: Lock screen call
New App Type: Appointments Provider
Text-to-speech
Read-write access to Camera roll, Saved pictures and playlists
XAML/WinJS: new SearchBox control
XAML/WinJS: Hubs for SemanticZoom
XAML: DatePicker and TimePicker
XAML: Flyout, MenuFlyout and SettingsMenuFlyout
XAML: AppBar simplification
XAML: DataBinding Improvements
Globalization: Currencies, Numeral systems and Numerical formatters
Other minor but important Win8.1 features
Be aware: these are new WinRT APIs, not Windows RT features. WinRT != Windows RT (I usually abbreviate the latter as "WRT" to avoid confusion and for similarity with things like WP8).
With that said, since WinRT is the only official API for developing WRT apps, and since Win8.0 and WRT_RTM support the same WinRT APIs, it's reasonable to assume that the same APIs are coming to WRT and therefore apps using these API features will be available on WRT devices.
Another interesting point is that WP8 uses WinRT as well (though only a subset of it). Hopefully at least some of these new APIs also become available on WP8.1; the obvious candidates are things like alarms and Bluetooth and such, though it'd be great to get *any* kind of VPN support in there...
"Support for any External / USB device"
Does that sound like unsigned (or testsigned, whatever) kernel mode code to anyone else?
Edit: Should probably read the thread closer, this is WinRT stuff.
It's not kernel mode. More accurate would be the ability to write (sandboxed, low-privilege) user-mode drivers using WinRT. That's still cool - it's the first official driver API of any kind, and from a security standpoint I'm way more comfortable about installing WWinRT apps than actual NT drivers - but it probably won't help with unlocks. It does mean you can talk directly* to USB devices, though, which is cool in many ways.
Given the ability to handle unrecognized devices, I'm guessing that apps will be able to register for specific USB IDs (in the same way that they can register for URI schemes and file extensions now) so that the app will auto-start when you connect a device, or so you can search the store for apps which can handle a specific device. This is big. The lack of third-party NT drivers for obscure hardware on RT has been an impediment (one of many) to progress on the platform. Asking people to write their own drivers is probably not going to fly for really complex hardware unless it's also quite popular, but I can see people doing things like writing an ADB app; there's no reason I know of why that needs to be a kernel driver.
* I'm assuming that the new WinRT APIs basically call into a generic NT driver that does the actual device IO. So, it's not literally directly talking to the device in the sense of sending bits down the USB port from your software, but it's still a lot closer to the metal than we could officially get before.
GoodDayToDie said:
* I'm assuming that the new WinRT APIs basically call into a generic NT driver that does the actual device IO. So, it's not literally directly talking to the device in the sense of sending bits down the USB port from your software, but it's still a lot closer to the metal than we could officially get before.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, it is probably just a Metro wrapper around the old well-known WinUSB API: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/ff540174(v=vs.85).aspx
And there is a strange question in the article:
Despite the plethora of new VPN APIs, an open question remains as to whether WinRT Win8.1 apps will work by default on VPNs.
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Click to collapse
VPN works fine on RT. At least I can connect to our company VPN with the built-in client and access all our internal resources, for example Sharepoint from the Internet Explorer.
Confusion of "Windows RT" and "WinRT" again*. VPN works "fine" on Windows RT, or on Windows 8, for desktop apps. However, WinRT apps, on either Win8 or WRT, are known to have problems tunneling through VPNs. These new APIs will hopefully help with that, but the question remains whether WinRT (Metro) apps will work *by default* over a VPN, or not.
* I swear, the entire Microsoft branding department, or at least any of them who can't provide proof they didn't argue against this idiocy, need to be stood up against a wall, slapped in the face, by everybody who ever got those two mixed up, and then fired. Much like Windows Phone... at least the complete retard who came up with "Windows Phone 7 Series devices" got the boot, but the result was merely slightly less awful and it hasn't gotten better since.
Being able to write drivers in WinRT level sounds very interesting indeed. I wonder how much integration into the OS will those drivers have, especially, if they are to remain active even when the parent app is not running.
I just hope they bring the entire IO interface of .NET on WinRT. That way we would be able to write drivers from scratch if we really wanted to...
I just want to access to COM ports. Seriously that was a dumb decision on microsofts behalf to block it. Only security threat it poses Tcp also poses so that can't be the reason.
I guess with raw usb access you can try a custom driver to a usb adaptor.
I've been thinking of getting a tablet and I've been eyeing the Windows 8 tablets. Honestly, I like Android, but all of their tablets disappoint (I don't want a Nexus tablet or an iPad for that matter).
I keep hearing that RT marketplace is very small, that there are only "a few apps", etc. Is this true? I am not a heavy app user, plus I'll always have my phone (LG G2 btw, and it's amazing).
I use W8 on my desktop and I like it - but that's obviously the "full" version. I would also like to ask for a tablet recommendation (Nokia 2520 looks FANTASTIC by the way). I don't want to give more than $500 for a tablet, so then generally RT tablets come to mind. My only other requirement is at least a full HD screen. What would you suggest?
Deusdies said:
I've been thinking of getting a tablet and I've been eyeing the Windows 8 tablets. Honestly, I like Android, but all of their tablets disappoint (I don't want a Nexus tablet or an iPad for that matter).
I keep hearing that RT marketplace is very small, that there are only "a few apps", etc. Is this true? I am not a heavy app user, plus I'll always have my phone (LG G2 btw, and it's amazing).
I use W8 on my desktop and I like it - but that's obviously the "full" version. I would also like to ask for a tablet recommendation (Nokia 2520 looks FANTASTIC by the way). I don't want to give more than $500 for a tablet, so then generally RT tablets come to mind. My only other requirement is at least a full HD screen. What would you suggest?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well if its for your criteria of a full Desktop you are right - you can't do this with Windows RT, thus with no RT tablet. But as im using my Surface as a thin client, remoting my home pc or my server for all the stuff i can't do on my tablet it's quite wonderful. And the Windows Store has been incresing ever since, last week i reset me tablet and did some serious store browsing to get up to date with available apps and i probably couldn't find anthing that's not there - development environment and compilers excluded of course. But as far as i can see - not knowing your area of expertise - there is everything you would need to get a basic start, though some apps will cost a dollar/euro or two. Whatsmore, there is the 8.0 jailbreak, if you are willing not to go to 8.1 yet (don't know if the surface 2 gets delivered with 8.1 and you would need to downgrade) - in this case there are already a lot of ported desktop apps available.
Jailbreak and ported apps can be found here:
Jailbreak
Ported Desktop Apps
As for the Nokia 2520, it definitely looks good! Haven't actually seen this one come up, looks promising.
To sum it up: if what you like is the new Modern UI interface you can definitely go with an RT tablet for there are plenty of apps available. For the desktop that's a whole other story, as I've described (jailbreak/ported apps) - if you are willing to compromise, you will get another added benefit from this cool piece of hard- and software.
The decision which RT tablet to use should be yours i guess, there are quite a few out there, but in a matter of usability I deem them all to work the same.
Greetings,
Fasin
The app market you can check out on your full windows 8 machine no problem. I do personally think its a bit limited.
Windows RT is for all intents and purposes windows 8 running on ARM instead of x86 processors. This does bring a few limitations, and then microsoft impose 2 more.
ARM and x86 processors are rather obviously not compatible. x86 programs cannot run on ARM and vice versa normally (you could emulate an ARM CPU on x86 and vice versa but thats slow).
Most "metro" apps are compiled in both ARM and x86 versions. There are a few which are not for whatever reason. But most should be available in both stores. The vast majority of metro apps use C# or VB.net anyway which dont output native ARM or x86 machine code and instead use .NET bytecode (the .NET runtime is present on both windows 8 and windows RT). VLC is the only major exception I can think of right now, although that hasn't been publicly released yet and ARM is planned (right now its x86 only).
Just about all desktop software for windows is x86. It won't run on ARM. If its open source it may be portable however the only compiler capable of targetting Windows RT is MSVC whereas alot of software can only be built in alternative compilers. There is a list (already linked in the post above) of software which people have managed to recompile for Windows RT.
Then 2 microsoft imposed restrictions.
Drivers. Although windows tablets all have full USB host abilities, you do of course require drivers for all USB devices you want to use. Windows are not allowing 3rd party drivers on ARM, so if your USB device isn't listed on their compatibility chart it won't work. Mice, keyboards, USB storage, some printers and even the xbox 360 controller work.
Desktop requiring signed binaries. This is a major restriction which serves no purpose. All software run on windows RT must have a digital signature attached which will be checked before execution. If the signature is missing it won't run it. For store apps this isn't a problem as signing the app is part of the release process. However microsoft don't want us to use the desktop on windows RT devices, they havent released any way to add the signature to software running on the traditional desktop. MS Office, internet explorer and all the other software that runs in desktop mode and is preinstalled on RT has been signed because microsoft wrote it and have the tools to do so. We don't. There is a jailbreak which can remove this restriction and enable people to run desktop applications (either written in .NET or compiled for ARM) but it doesn't work on windows RT 8.1 which the lumia tablet and surface 2 have (they cannot be downgraded to 8.0). An 8.1 jailbreak is coming soon.
Whether the RT is suitable or not depends on your needs. If all your going to do is surf the web, well its full blown internet explorer 11 not some sucky mobile browser, it even has flash (but not java, which you should not confuse for javascript. However iOS and android dont have java either).
You get full RDP support in windows RT. So you can view the screen of and interact with your real windows 8 desktop remotely on the tablet. In the ported apps section for jailbroken devices there is also VNC which does the same thing but is cross platform unlike RDP which is supposed to just be windows (however there is an RDP server for linux too so if you have a linux machine, install the RDP server, remote access it on non jailbroken RT device no problem).
You get microsoft office. Its missing plugins and macros. But otherwise, its a full office suite. Its more than android or iOS have.
Being close enough to normal windows, you get a full file browser which supports network mapped drives and USB etc as you do on your desktop. Android can have file browsers, but they usually arent as good as a desktop file browser. iOS doesnt have a file browser at all.
With the file browser you have support for USB storage. Got some photos on a memory stick, plug it in, you can view them. iOS cannot do this. Some android phones can, some can't (your LG should be able to).
True there are not as many apps as iOS or android. But both iOS and android had low apps counts when they first released and according to what little public data there is, windows after 1 year is about on par with both android and iOS app counts after 1 year. It takes time (but will it take too long is a better question)
Thank you both very much. Very well thought out responses. I was debating between getting the Dell Venue 11 Pro (full Windows 8) or the Nokia 2520 being as that they're the same price, but I have honestly been convinced to get the RT version.
Fasin said:
Whatsmore, there is the 8.0 jailbreak, if you are willing not to go to 8.1 yet (don't know if the surface 2 gets delivered with 8.1 and you would need to downgrade) - in this case there are already a lot of ported desktop apps available.
Jailbreak and ported apps can be found here:
Jailbreak
Ported Desktop Apps
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh. My. Gott.
I had no idea that this even existed. I think this is pretty much what settles it - I'm definitely getting an RT. Notepad++? Python? 7-zip? Amazing! Vielen dank!
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Then 2 microsoft imposed restrictions.
Drivers. Although windows tablets all have full USB host abilities, you do of course require drivers for all USB devices you want to use. Windows are not allowing 3rd party drivers on ARM, so if your USB device isn't listed on their compatibility chart it won't work. Mice, keyboards, USB storage, some printers and even the xbox 360 controller work.
Desktop requiring signed binaries. This is a major restriction which serves no purpose. All software run on windows RT must have a digital signature attached which will be checked before execution. If the signature is missing it won't run it. For store apps this isn't a problem as signing the app is part of the release process. However microsoft don't want us to use the desktop on windows RT devices, they havent released any way to add the signature to software running on the traditional desktop. MS Office, internet explorer and all the other software that runs in desktop mode and is preinstalled on RT has been signed because microsoft wrote it and have the tools to do so. We don't. There is a jailbreak which can remove this restriction and enable people to run desktop applications (either written in .NET or compiled for ARM) but it doesn't work on windows RT 8.1 which the lumia tablet and surface 2 have (they cannot be downgraded to 8.0). An 8.1 jailbreak is coming soon.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're right, that truly is an odd restriction. Perhaps they just want people to use Windows Store more and more? But from this thread it seems that Jailbreak "fixes" a lot of issues - and I didn't even know this existed until now (admittedly I wasn't into the Windows 8 on mobile devices a whole lot until now).
Yep, I think my only pseudo-concern is now gone. Thank you again both, and Nokia 2520 - here I come!
Well, the jailbreak isnt out for 8.1 and is still more limited than the bay trail in the venue 11. But its one of those things that can only go uphill from here.
My personal choice would be the venue. But thats me, not you. I do a fair bit of programming and use alot of software that just plain isnt available on RT. And I think thats the point, different devices suit different people in different ways.
BestBuy will have Surface RT for $200 in Black Friday. I'd like to buy one since it is such cheap and I can play with some ARM Win32 programs.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Well, the jailbreak isnt out for 8.1 and is still more limited than the bay trail in the venue 11. But its one of those things that can only go uphill from here.
My personal choice would be the venue. But thats me, not you. I do a fair bit of programming and use alot of software that just plain isnt available on RT. And I think thats the point, different devices suit different people in different ways.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do quite a bit of programming myself (both personally and for my work), but I can never picture myself programming on a tablet (or even a tablet/keyboard combo). That's just not what I'm getting the tablet for.
I've just read Engadget's review of Nokia 2520, which is overall positive. But I thought it would be much better than the Surface 2, and apparently (according to their review), it isn't. In fact, I thought it will have a better battery life, while in fact it has worse.
As a student I also get a 10% discount on Surface only, and I have a $25 Microsoft Store gift card that I got eons ago, so that brings the total cost for a Surface 2 down to ~$370, which is phenomenal.
It's still in between Nokia 2520 and Surface 2...
Deusdies said:
I do quite a bit of programming myself (both personally and for my work), but I can never picture myself programming on a tablet (or even a tablet/keyboard combo). That's just not what I'm getting the tablet for.
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To be honest even a laptop is less than ideal - if you're used to working on a multi-monitor desktop setup then a laptop will feel restrictive.
ThorburnJ said:
To be honest even a laptop is less than ideal - if you're used to working on a multi-monitor desktop setup then a laptop will feel restrictive.
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Click to collapse
I do program on a laptop with a 14" 1366*768 display. I have used much higher resolution displays though and it is certainly alot better.
ThorburnJ said:
To be honest even a laptop is less than ideal - if you're used to working on a multi-monitor desktop setup then a laptop will feel restrictive.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep... I do all of my programming on a desktop. At work 3 monitors, at home 1, but 27". So, yes, tablet is just for movies, some games, etc.
It is possible to emulate some x86 programs on RT's ARM processor, however often it will be slow. Most desired programs won't run through emulation (including utorrent, VLC, Steam, etc)
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2095934
Doesn't Microsoft forbid metro apps from having native binaries?
If so, how would you ever write something like a wii emulator on today's hardware? It would be way too slow. Perhaps two decades from now?
Rakeesh_j said:
Doesn't Microsoft forbid metro apps from having native binaries?
If so, how would you ever write something like a wii emulator on today's hardware? It would be way too slow. Perhaps two decades from now?
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Click to collapse
No...
Many "metro" apps are normal C/C++ compiled natively for the processor itself.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
No...
Many "metro" apps are normal C/C++ compiled natively for the processor itself.
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Click to collapse
Oh. Then what was with MS's comments that they deliberately wanted to make metro apps limited? They can't just mean in terms of being sandboxed? You can still sandbox without sacrificing utility; Android does that quite well.
Rakeesh_j said:
Oh. Then what was with MS's comments that they deliberately wanted to make metro apps limited? They can't just mean in terms of being sandboxed? You can still sandbox without sacrificing utility; Android does that quite well.
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trying to start flamewars again...
SixSixSevenSeven said:
trying to start flamewars again...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, it's very much on topic. If the goal was to start a flame war, then the OP beat me to it a long time ago.
Kindly point out something an android app can do which a windows app cannot (there are some, I personally wanted to use a certain feature but until 8.1 could not, yeah 8.1 added loads more features)
Apps requiring root do not count as root is a device modification much the same way modified RT devices can do more.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Kindly point out something an android app can do which a windows app cannot (there are some, I personally wanted to use a certain feature but until 8.1 could not, yeah 8.1 added loads more features)
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Honestly I don't know as I've never published any apps and I've only done very small scale development for my own uses. I'm just going by MS's commentary on where they think they went wrong with their 8 strategy, in which they indicate that they believe making apps limited in scope wasn't a mistake (effectively they believe that their marketing was the reason for RT's failure, and that it will be easier to market 2 OSes instead of 3.)
I do know however that you see some pretty complex applications on Android whereas I haven't seen anything on RT hasn't already been done better in a web browser. In fact, I've seen web browsers do things that RT will not, take for example that version of battlefield which runs in Firefox and Chrome (RT could technically do that, granted.) The most complicated emulator available for RT is for snes, which also can be done in FF and Chrome: http://www.b81.org/~tjw/smw/
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Apps requiring root do not count as root is a device modification much the same way modified RT devices can do more.
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Click to collapse
I don't really see it that way. Just issue an 'oem unlock' command to the device and you're golden. RT devices however by design forbid doing anything like that.
That said, the ultimate limitation in RT comes from this: RT won't run any app unless MS explicitly greenlights it. A lot of the more interesting apps (to me anyways) are ones that companies like MS and in some circumstances even Google wish didn't exist at all, like ad blockers, being able to tether without carrier permission, etc. Even so, not all of these require root and there's nothing stopping you from using them on Android.
Rakeesh_j said:
Honestly I don't know as I've never published any apps and I've only done very small scale development for my own uses. I'm just going by MS's commentary on where they think they went wrong with their 8 strategy, in which they indicate that they believe making apps limited in scope wasn't a mistake (effectively they believe that their marketing was the reason for RT's failure, and that it will be easier to market 2 OSes instead of 3.)
I do know however that you see some pretty complex applications on Android whereas I haven't seen anything on RT hasn't already been done better in a web browser. In fact, I've seen web browsers do things that RT will not, take for example that version of battlefield which runs in Firefox and Chrome (RT could technically do that, granted.) The most complicated emulator available for RT is for snes, which also can be done in FF and Chrome: http://www.b81.org/~tjw/smw/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Then if you don't know, then why are you claiming it to be so poor in comparison to android? What apps *are available* doesnt dictate what apps the system is capable of.
In 8.0 the biggest issues were lack of low level interfaces to peripherals and instead being limited to high level wrappers provided by WinRT. In 8.1 there are now WinRT wrapper classes to raw USB and bluetooth, both of which were absent in 8.0. Besides that, there isn't any OpenGL, but there is DirectX which android doesnt have and serves the same purpose.
WIndows 8 apps are perfectly capable of hosting a first person shooter such as battlefield, there is a massive difference between it being incapable and simply not been done (actually there are FPS games, but they are more inline with the crap you see on android).
Your battlefield example is entirely bull**** either way as you seemed to be arguing for android whereas android doesnt have battlefield either.
Even if microsoft ditched windows RT, the store is part of windows 8. It would still be present. Windows RT is just an ARM port of windows 8. WinRT is the so called "sandbox" store apps run in and is present on both operating systems.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Then if you don't know, then why are you claiming it to be so poor in comparison to android? What apps *are available* doesnt dictate what apps the system is capable of.
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Click to collapse
Two things:
Comments I've heard from developers
And most importantly, Microsoft's own comments
SixSixSevenSeven said:
In 8.0 the biggest issues were lack of low level interfaces to peripherals and instead being limited to high level wrappers provided by WinRT. In 8.1 there are now WinRT wrapper classes to raw USB and bluetooth, both of which were absent in 8.0. Besides that, there isn't any OpenGL, but there is DirectX which android doesnt have and serves the same purpose.
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Click to collapse
That later bit is more of a reason to not want RT. Virtually every platform out there uses OpenGL. The number of devices that use directx exclusively make up such a small percentage of the marketplace that it almost may as well not even exist. Android wouldn't gain anything at all by having it (really, no developer out there has ever said "I'd port to Android if only it supported directx,") and it really hurts that RT/WP don't have it. For this reason, any developer who says that they'll only use DirectX is shooting themselves in the foot. Microsoft is doing exactly that - too many games developers said they probably wouldn't ever bother porting anything to RT/WP because they don't want to spend all of the money on porting because the revenue gained is almost guaranteed to not be worth it. Sure, some game engines now support it, but that doesn't solve the problem of backporting their own customizations and additions to the base engine.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
WIndows 8 apps are perfectly capable of hosting a first person shooter such as battlefield, there is a massive difference between it being incapable and simply not been done (actually there are FPS games, but they are more inline with the crap you see on android).
Your battlefield example is entirely bull**** either way as you seemed to be arguing for android whereas android doesnt have battlefield either.
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Click to collapse
That's probably because you missed the point entirely. It has nothing to do with whether or not battlefield is an FPS. The point is that I've seen web browsers do more impressive things than RT apps. Battlefield is merely an example of why even Chrome is more valuable to me than RT.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Even if microsoft ditched windows RT, the store is part of windows 8. It would still be present. Windows RT is just an ARM port of windows 8. WinRT is the so called "sandbox" store apps run in and is present on both operating systems.
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Click to collapse
You aren't telling me anything new here. Microsoft has done something similar more than once and we've already seen the results: It'll just go derelict and then eventually deprecated but still kept around.
I actually wouldn't be surprised if MS created an app store for win32 apps similar to what apple is doing with OSX. Their current store model is just a flat out knockoff of the ios app model (contrast to the play store model where each publisher is at their own discretion, and some people still wonder why android/play is by far more popular than the rest) so they may as well go all the way with it.
How's everyone doing?
I bought a Surface RT during last Black Friday and i have been using it mainly for school. I just found out there was a jailbreak and i guess this whole world of mods. Just wondering what kind of things can a normal computer gamer and medical student gain by jailbreaking? What additional features do you get?
Windows RT cannot run desktop applications normally for 2 reasons.
Firstly it uses an ARM architecture processor commonly used in phones and tablets whereas your normal laptop or desktop uses an x86 architecture processor. The 2 are not compatible, same way my A+ blood is not suitable for a B- recipient (as far as my limited medical knowledge is concerned anyway).
Secondly, unlike windows 8, windows RT features digital signature enforcement. In order to confirm whether a piece of software is legitimate or malware it requires microsoft to add a digital signature to the executable. If the signature is missing or invalid then it won't run it. Apps you download from the windows store will come with this signature so its not a problem there. Unfortunately there is no way to obtain a certificate for desktop applications available to us at this time so only microsoft office, internet explorer and the other built in desktop programs that came preinstalled have the required certificate.
The jailbreak removes the signature checking on windows RT 8.0 only, it does not function on RT 8.1. Black friday is not a thing here so I have no idea when you got the tablet, it could have come with 8.1 rather than 8.0 in which case you can get an 8.0 recovery image and "downgrade" the device again. That solves the second issue and allows us to run software not authorised by microsoft.
The first issue. I don't know how much you know about software development but normally you take a human readable file(s), run it through a compiler and that spits out the executable binary. Of course existing software that you can just hop online and download or pull from a CD will have a binary for x86 processors not ARM. Microsofts C/C++ compiler with support for windows RT is available though so we can at least get binaries which will run on the Surface RT (and other RT devices). Downside, in order for us to port this software to RT it has to have the human readable source code available and that source code needs to work in microsofts compiler, if either of those requirements is not met then there is nothing we can do for a port.
If you are running the 8.0 version of RT rather than RT 8.1 then you can obtain the jailbreak tool from here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2092158
A list of applications which have been ported to RT can be found here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2092348
So what do you gain as a medical student/gamer by jailbreaking? The ability to run the software in the list above, that is it (and if I was to pick up an RT device that would be highly important to me, but thats me, not everyone)
SixSixSevenSeven said:
A list of applications which have been ported to RT can be found here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2092348
So what do you gain as a medical student/gamer by jailbreaking? The ability to run the software in the list above, that is it (and if I was to pick up an RT device that would be highly important to me, but thats me, not everyone)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I wouldn't consider myself a serious gamer, but the jailbreak gives me three game-related things that I use occasionally. First is Quake. I never actually played through the whole game back in the day, so I'm finally doing that on my Surface, which I think is really cool. Mouse not required so I can pretty much play it wherever (unlike Quake 3, which I've also played on it occasionally). Second is DOSbox, as I occasionally pull out some old games like Duke Nukem when I'm bored. Last is the super Nintendo emulator snes9x. Yes I know there is also a store app version, but it got pulled for while, so I like the knowledge that the desktop version is mine to keep.
Past that there are some very helpful desktop utilities that I use, KeepPass2 (password safe) I use for both personal and work passwords, so to have it on my Surface is awesome, and since there is also a subversion client, I can even check out the work safe directly using my Surface. And of course Putty.
Basically I would not have bought my Surface RT if it weren't for the jailbreak. And I will also not upgrade to 8.1 if a jailbreak isn't available. There are too many things I would rather do on the desktop, even on RT.
domboy said:
I wouldn't consider myself a serious gamer, but the jailbreak gives me three game-related things that I use occasionally. First is Quake. I never actually played through the whole game back in the day, so I'm finally doing that on my Surface, which I think is really cool. Mouse not required so I can pretty much play it wherever (unlike Quake 3, which I've also played on it occasionally). Second is DOSbox, as I occasionally pull out some old games like Duke Nukem when I'm bored. Last is the super Nintendo emulator snes9x. Yes I know there is also a store app version, but it got pulled for while, so I like the knowledge that the desktop version is mine to keep.
Past that there are some very helpful desktop utilities that I use, KeepPass2 (password safe) I use for both personal and work passwords, so to have it on my Surface is awesome, and since there is also a subversion client, I can even check out the work safe directly using my Surface. And of course Putty.
Basically I would not have bought my Surface RT if it weren't for the jailbreak. And I will also not upgrade to 8.1 if a jailbreak isn't available. There are too many things I would rather do on the desktop, even on RT.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you that sounds amazing. Yea I use it mainly doing work at a clinic, but there is always downtime throughout the day. Playing some Old school quake/snes would be tight. for SNEs are the roms all on there or can you just download everysingle one you want? also do you need a controller?
Redistributing ROMs is generally considered at least technically illegal, and thus against XDA rules. That said, I'm guessing you have them or can find them. No idea if it works with a controller (in general, Windows RT supports controllers, but no guarantee on app compatibility through something like DOSbox or an emulator).
There's one other advantage of Jailbreak that 6677 didn't mention: you can run an x86 emulation layer that (very slowly) allows running (a small number of) normal x86 programs. A few old games, like Heroes of Might and Magic 3, are known to work with it. It won't run anything very new or fancy - for example, even really old versions of Firefox don't work, although their installer will run - but sometimes something that hasn't been tested before is tried, and works out.
Something to consider about DOSBox: a lot of the games on GOG.com are 16-bit games that run in DOSBox. If you extract the DOSBox disk image and configuration and bring them over to the tablet, you can run them using the RT port of DOSBox as well.
egyptionsr2buff said:
Thank you that sounds amazing. Yea I use it mainly doing work at a clinic, but there is always downtime throughout the day. Playing some Old school quake/snes would be tight. for SNEs are the roms all on there or can you just download everysingle one you want? also do you need a controller?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Everything I mentioned I do with the Surface keyboard, and I've got the type keyboard. The Surface itself can make use of an Xbox360 controller, but I've never tried to configure it in snes9x. A quick search on Google looks like people have used the X360 controller with snes9x on regular Windows, so it may work. I know the store version (snes8x) can use, as I tried it briefly once. I just don't usually have my controller with me, so using the keyboard is much more convenient. The store version has touch controls, but that is really tricky to use when you need precise movement in a game.
ROMs are not bundled with the snes emulator, but that's typical in the emulation world. I don't want to go into too much detail since it's against forum policy, but again, Google it a bit as it's pretty easy to find info on the subject.
I know this question will come with some confused comments and answers... so Ill ask the question and qualify my question with some examples why I am asking and of what I am not asking.
Question: What is the likelihood of getting/shoehorning Full x86 Windows 10 (or 8.1 until 10 releases) onto this phone?
Qualifying statements:
1. I am not asking about Windows Phone OS at all. Everyone knows Microsoft screwed the pooch during their shift from Windows Mobile 6.5 to Windows Phone 7 then again from Windows Phone 7 to Windows Phone 8. That is why so many of us jumped ship from Microsoft's Phone offerings over to Android in 2010. This is 5 years later and Microsoft might be able to get some market share back, but only if they pull their head out of their a$$....
2. (Example of irrelevant answer... Why do you want full Windows when there is Win RT or WinPho???lol!!!!LMFAO!!!! TrolllFACE!!!)
There are plenty of usage cases to justify full x86 Windows on a mobile device. Microsoft and Intel are pushing on the tablet market but for some reason they have not begun to crack the phone market with Full WinTel.... Simply put, If someone is willing to pick up a Windows 8.1 x86 tablet with 1GB or 2GB of RAM for $200 or $300 bucks then they should be ok picking up a similar device with 4GB of RAM and the ability to make calls.
3. (Another example of irrelevant answer...But Android!!!! It rulz!!!)
First off I am an avid android user. We started with My wife and I getting the EVO 4G in 2010, then EVO 3D in 2011 (I know...), then Note 2 in 2012, and My wife switching out the Note 2 for the Huawei Ascend Mate 2 last year. Im holding on to my Note 2 for the final stretch with its 9300 mAh Zero Lemon battery. All phones we've gotten have been rooted and customized by me. I use Bluestacks and/or Andy OS on all of my Windows PCs and have owned several Android Tablets. In short I prefer Android over Windows phone and iOS and whatever else is out there... Now in saying that, I feel a full Windows device in a phone with sufficient processor and RAM would be able to run Windows as its main OS and Android as an emulator to satisfy my Android needs.
Very well put, I'm also interested in this.
Sent from my MT2L03 using Tapatalk
Also interested in this!
I think this needs Microsoft's direct support. IMHO these are some blockades the community will be met with:
1. Since Android uses a boot.img as stage2, some work have to be done for the boot image to be able to chainload Windows. Vanilla installation goes out of the equation.
2. Figuring out how to chainload a proprietary OS properly is, well, hard.
3. It seems like the device uses some special Intel modem and wireless chipset. Porting won't be easy (Look at Intel PRO...)
4. Although 5.5in is GIGANTIC for a phone, maybe explorer or metro won't be able to fit in it?
5. Onboard storage is lackluster to host a full desktop Windows.
6. Windows doesn't even have a dialer.
But generally, this is a great idea! Being able to run x86 apps on a phone, oh the feels!
I'd be very interested if it would run full x86 or x64 Windows! However as stated, I doubt that will happen.
Even then it would be a bit limited and the main issue I would imagine to be space. The screen is quite small for a 1080p window to display on. I'd want to probably run a 720p res for larger buttons and such, might fit a bit better.
Perhaps if you could have it all run off a memory card, but then it would be rather slow to boot and cache stuff?
Here check out this small presentation. Something could be possible with the virtualization extensions that intel processor has.
This totally depends on :
- how well Asus releases the source code.
- Bootloader unlockable or not, i.e. ways to work around the secure boot.
I tried similar things on Lenovo K900 which is running Z2580. Lenovo's open source release was just horrible since even building the kernel was difficult due to lack of info.
I was able to eventually built the kernel with KVM enabled, but was having trouble signing the kernel for the bootloader.
Just force loading the kvm.ko was not successful either since the stock kernel had some feature missing required by KVM.
I would be interested to work on this phone again if we can form a group.
kazuken said:
Here check out this small presentation. Something could be possible with the virtualization extensions that intel processor has.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
chinabull said:
This totally depends on :
- how well Asus releases the source code.
- Bootloader unlockable or not, i.e. ways to work around the secure boot.
I tried similar things on Lenovo K900 which is running Z2580. Lenovo's open source release was just horrible since even building the kernel was difficult due to lack of info.
I was able to eventually built the kernel with KVM enabled, but was having trouble signing the kernel for the bootloader.
Just force loading the kvm.ko was not successful either since the stock kernel had some feature missing required by KVM.
I would be interested to work on this phone again if we can form a group.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
sure we can start a group on slack.com
some other things that also come to my mind:
wine for x86
docker for x86
debian chroot
wine already has some ARM support
This would likely be much easier... Notice the 'high end' system reqs?
http://www.ubuntu.com/tablet/operators-and-oems
I think the biggest problem for Windows would be wrestling with the PowerVR-based gpu.. Those stupid things are usually a roadblock in just about every interesting project..
kazuken said:
sure we can start a group on slack.com
some other things that also come to my mind:
wine for x86
docker for x86
debian chroot
wine already has some ARM support
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry for ressurecting this old thread but you would definitely be able to run Linux X86 on chroot. Then through wine you'd be able to run a lot of windows apps. Only issue is that performance would be low *unless* you'd output the GUI to android's framebuffer (FB0) which would require a kernel supporting this (outputting to framebuffer) which in turn would need Asus releasing the kernel sources so that to bake FB support.
So yeah it's all doable even with relatively good performance and by outputting the image (through MHL or chromecast) into the big screen would give us a X86 PC on the go. In fact I'd prefer it from running windows X86 natively because then you'd be losing calls and notifications... Imagine your *phone* running all your PC's software (well almost all as wine often has issues). You can buy one of those 128gb micro sds and your "phone" would have plenty of space for your (PC) data...
Stevethegreat said:
Sorry for ressurecting this old thread but you would definitely be able to run Linux X86 on chroot. Then through wine you'd be able to run a lot of windows apps. Only issue is that performance would be low *unless* you'd output the GUI to android's framebuffer (FB0) which would require a kernel supporting this (outputting to framebuffer) which in turn would need Asus releasing the kernel sources so that to bake FB support.
So yeah it's all doable even with relatively good performance and by outputting the image (through MHL or chromecast) into the big screen would give us a X86 PC on the go. In fact I'd prefer it from running windows X86 natively because then you'd be losing calls and notifications... Imagine your *phone* running all your PC's software (well almost all as wine often has issues). You can buy one of those 128gb micro sds and your "phone" would have plenty of space for your (PC) data...
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Click to collapse
I tried it out. you can get GNUroot and GNUroot wheezy x86 on play store. I was able to get fluxbox with tightvncserver running (though no apps, but was able to get an image in vnc) i am now going to try lxde and then see if nomachine 4.0 will work. wine should be able to run photoshop cs2.
kazuken said:
I tried it out. you can get GNUroot and GNUroot wheezy x86 on play store. I was able to get fluxbox with tightvncserver running (though no apps, but was able to get an image in vnc) i am now going to try lxde and then see if nomachine 4.0 will work. wine should be able to run photoshop cs2.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Problem with running your gui on a VNC server is that it is slow. It's (far) easier to setup though.
On my android machines I prefer to (basically) output an X Server window on the (machine's) frame buffer. You get real time performance (almost the same as if you had installed the OS natively), plus you get sound which is useful if one wants to run sound and video editing software (or plainly listen to music ). It's (quite) harder to setup but it has all been streamlined lately by a play store app named linuxdeploy (IIRC it has added X86 distros support lately).
Yeah... Don't use vnc, use xserver-xsdl . It's in the app store. Best Android X server. In your chroot, export DISPLAY=:0 after starting it up.
Sent from my ASUS_Z00AD using XDA Free mobile app
ycavan said:
Yeah... Don't use vnc, use xserver-xsdl . It's in the app store. Best Android X server. In your chroot, export DISPLAY=:0 after starting it up.
Sent from my ASUS_Z00AD using XDA Free mobile app
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Click to collapse
That's a great solution too! Hadn't thought to recommend it. It's easy to setup too.
Still outputting directly to framebuffer instead of an xserver app is quite faster (even than that!). But I'd expect the Xserver-XSDL performance to be quite good too.
OMG, this is SO interesting. I have been looking forward to put windows desktop in my phone since ages. Virtualization never let you go any further than Winxp. But now, this is another story. I am thinking of getting one of my own to help with the testing
Keep it up guys!
I ran photoshop cs2, via xserver xsdl, takes a while to load but eventually does, but its very hard to drag windows via xserver xsdl. i tried with vnc and was able to open a picture taken from the zenfone's camera and adjust levels. its alot easier to use a physical mouse and keyboard. but here are some screenshots of it running all on the android. it took brute force to create the x with the paintbrush and to drag a window. I ran it at 720p, also at 1080p. photoshop loads a lot quicker using xserver xsdl vs vnc.
You can change mouse settings when you start up xserver-xsdl. By default it's set up like the screen is a laptop touch pad.
The other thing you might want to try is a different Windows manager. I prefer fvwm2 since it's very light.
Sent from my ASUS_Z00AD using XDA Free mobile app
*irrelevant reply alert*
This takes me back to running Linux on the Windows-based XDA Exec. Those were the days.
Anyway, this is a great idea and you're finding some interesting workarounds, but I think you should be looking to get Windows to run natively. Sure, it doesn't have a dialler, but I'm sure someone can hook something up - especially if the interface is anything like the old Voice Modems from when we could only get our internets at 56kbps. (You kids don't know you're born! In my day, etc)
Meanwhile, in the Enterprise world where we try to reduce the costs of people having a whole processor each that they carry around with them, we're looking at using PCoIP to deliver a PC experience on a tablet. Sure, it's a little laggy (we're talking milliseconds on WiFi, though) but you get a lot of processing power, and if you're using Amazon you'll get NVidia rendering too. That's more for workstation graphics - CAD etc, rather than gaming. But then, if you're looking at installing Windows on a Phone, you're probably not going to be trying to play GTA5 on it.
Again, this reply is irrelevant because I realise you probably don't want to shell out $20-$40 per month on a virtual machine with a full Office suite. Plus, it's less fun to play with and not quite as much of an achievement to have set up something that works out of the box.
Native Linux 64 bit maybe, you get a much better OS, customizable, better resources management, open source, faster and waste less battery plus you can create your own mobile friendly interface just like Ubuntu Touch. Someone said it might be possible to port dialer, modem and other driver's concept since android is linux based. Microsoft is a handicapped development private code and as linux creator affirmed, its therefore a crappy OS lol There is steam on linux and it can run OpenGL games faster with the same hw due to uncluttered OS.
The hardest part will be GPU acceleration.
aziz07 said:
Native Linux 64 bit maybe, you get a much better OS, customizable, better resources management, open source, faster and waste less battery plus you can create your own mobile friendly interface just like Ubuntu Touch. Someone said it might be possible to port dialer, modem and other driver's concept since android is linux based. Microsoft is a handicapped development private code and as linux creator affirmed, its therefore a crappy OS lol There is steam on linux and it can run OpenGL games faster with the same hw due to uncluttered OS.
The hardest part will be GPU acceleration.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The .Net Framework is already Open Source. It's likely Windows 10 will go Open Source at some point. It's said to be the "last version of Windows" - probably similarly to the way MacOS X hasn't been replaced with MacOS XI. (There will still be a market for desktops when we have 128bit CPUs, and they won't just stick with the same 64bit kernel.)
I posted this in the galaxy note 12.2 forums but since a lot of us use mice on the shield TV I thought it might help someone here.
Gaming Mice on Android
I'm not sure if anyone else uses a gaming mouse but I thought I would note that while I haven't found a way to configure a gaming mouse in android, you can still use any gaming mouse with onboard memory.
you just program it on your PC and then when you plug it into the android tablet (or any other android device) and all of your key pre-sets and lighting presets are there.
This is useful for people that remote into their work computers from home, or just want easy copy paste functionality or for the people that remote into their computers for gaming etc.
Personally I use a gaming mouse (Razer Naga Chroma) for work on a windows 7 workstation but I use my Galaxy note 12.2 exclusively at home with no access to windows.
The Razer Naga and Logitech G600 have a scroll wheel that tilts left and right and the function can be reprogrammed.
I reassign those to copy and paste and its way faster than using the keyboard and saves some wrist strain.
I also have shortcuts for our proprietary software programmed onto the side buttons and having access to that from home is a HUGE timesaver.
now when I work from home I can have everything at my fingertips instead of having to use the onscreen windows functions in teamviewer, or digging through menus in company software.
and a lot of the normal functions carry over to android pretty well (Copy paste is much smoother from the mouse etc.)
Anyways for anyone that this might help these are the ones I've tried so far:
Works:
Logitech G600 (Supports keyboard/mouse functions and simple hotkeys like alt + Shift + Tab but does not support complex macros to device memory)
Roccat Nyth (Supports everything including complex macros but does have a length limit)
Anything with onboard memory will likely also work to varying degrees.
Doesnt work beyond default buttons:
Anything with no onboard memory:
Any mouse designed to work with Razer Synapse 2.0
Lower end Logitech mice. (Some lower end models lack onboard memory)
mice can't touch action in android app&game
leasing said:
mice can't touch action in android app&game
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its true, with a mice, some apps work some apps dont, this is on full android, not sure what the situation is with stock
Android/shield does this neat thing it seems, where it makes every individual app create/declare mouse support, individually, instead of, i dont know, lets say, for an example, tie mouse support with the touch system in some fashion, on the OS level, you know, so that EVERY app works, without having to rely on every app with various degrees of dev support to include or update in the mouse support.........totally neat way of doing it
implementation fragmentation
Theres also the permission implementation im starting to notice now.........marshmellow it seems has implemented a rather NEAT storage persmission decleration requirement, whereas apps running on marshmellow have to declare storage permission in order to be granted storage permission.........good idea...(sporadic sarcasm off)...no, really, security effort :good:....(sporadic sarcasm on again), ......but, but, bad implementation, you've now declared older apps with no current dev support, that still fit a function, from working on the newest android version, and perhaps, then onwards..........if the app does not declare it seems, then it simply will not work, if it requires this particular storage access.........you've just isolated a good portion of older unsurported apps that still may serve a function
I dont see why they implemented this, mmmm... in this way(CANT.SENTENCE.PROPERLY), why make the requirement, for apps to declare this, when they should have attempted to secure it, and rightly so on this front, on the bleeming OS level.............all apps would have this storage permission in android settings somewhere, and you'd simply allow or deny, on the *OS level* (record, meet hammer), much :silly:
Anyways, continuation, where was i, ah yes
",on the *OS level*",..... without having to alienate older apps with no prospects for an update
Sorry for offtopic, suspiciously rantish, like behaviour :silly:
Edit: and silly,.....yep.....silly............. i always forget that one (insert scratch head emoji)
To Recap
OS LEVEL
Razer naga works
I was able to get my razer naga to work with the shield you just have to make some adjustments to it first. You have to plug it in to your pc, install synapse, open synapse, go into the performance tab, change the dpi to 800 and the polling rate to 125 hz. The settings are saved on the device itself so you can simply plug the mouse in to the shield now and it works. You might be able to play around with dpi settings to see what works but I'm fairly certain the main issue is the polling rate. I'm going to mess around one of their keyboards to make sure it works too.