Develop Bugs

Ehm, why shouldn't we switch?

Hi there, this post is basically dedicated to current users of windows mobile, who bought their phone because of the virtues an open plattform offers. People like us aren't happy with the direction ms is heading with windows phone 7 and hope that the realize their wrong doing by reimplanting things like multitasking, deep-customization, file-system access, native coding or simply copy, cut and paste.
But why should we buy a windows phone 7 device and hope they transform it to something that resembles wm6 offer time when we could just switch to another plattform?
I mean...
- booth the devices we own and the software we use are not compatible to wp7.
- Android basically got every of the above features wp7 is lagging.
- Android devices are aviable or will be released from every major windows mobile manufacture.
- A lot of software studios will produce for Android.
- Through the ndk Google offers there will probably be more windows mobile software on Android than on windows phone in a year from now.
The only thing wp7 got IMO is the ui, and as we all know from endless debates with the iphone-guys ui is a matter of taste and can be ported...

If you're not a Google or Java hater and Android does what you need... don't hesitate.
Android is good. I'm right now playing with an older Android phone, and although it is very slow (old QCOM processor) and has a small screen, I find the experience to be better than the experience I have with my HD2.
I don't have the slightest doubt anymore that Android is better than iPhone OS or WP7S.
It's smooth.
It has a great, flexible home screen (who needs tiles when you got widgets?).
It has by far the best solution for notifications.
It multitasks.
It has a Marketplace and allows you to side-load apps.
It allows you to access the file system.
It copies and pastes.
It has an NDK.
It is available right now and only getting better.
What you don't get is integration with Microsoft's services, like Windows Live and XBox Live. Of course, there's a good chance that you don't care about them.

I've never used an iPhone but I've dabbled in Android for a while. Mostly, through the Poly port for Kaiser. Here's my views on WM6.5 vs Android.
Windows Mobile GOOD
#1 WM5 sucked. Very unstable, and scrolling speed is very slow. WM6 wasn't much different. WM6.1 become stable, but speed still suffers. WM6.5 very stable, but speed suffers. WM6.5.3 is very stable, and the speed is very fast, including scrolling.
#2 True freedom. You have 3 ways to install applications, and the choice for it to be on the SD card or internal memory. Copy and Paste, and all that jazz.
#3 Customization! Like Mc Donald's says, have it your way.
#4 Huge selection of apps.
Windows Mobile BAD
#1 Lots of problems with 3D acceleration support. Mainly due to OpenGL ES drivers.
#2 Only way to upgrade OS is through custom built roms on XDA-Developers. No support from MS, HTC, and etc.
#3 Majority of applications were written in 2003, and have since been abandoned.
#4 With Phone7 coming soon, developers will completely abandon WM6.5, and move onto Phone 7.
Android GOOD
#1 Based on Linux, which means lots of community support.
#2 Already has an established amount of useful applications.
#3 Very customizable. I've seen some impressive 3D stuff.
#4 You can install applications from the SD card.
#5 Copy and paste exists.
Android BAD
#1 Applications must be installed into main memory, unless you partition your SD card.
#2 Very reliant on a internet connection to do a lot of things.
#3 No Offline GPS option for the Nav.
#4 Google might try to take away the "Google" experience from rom cookers.

#3 No Offline GPS option for the Nav.
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There's IGO8, Copilot... and some others. Or did I get you wrong?
#1 Applications must be installed into main memory, unless you partition your SD card.
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Not anymore, afaik.
#4 Huge selection of apps.
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That's even more true for Android.
But this is not WM6.5 vs. Android. WM6.5 is doomed, so the time will come when you have to switch.
WP7S is not worth waiting for, it's just an iPhone OS clone. So, in my opinion, there's no reason not to switch now, if you want to.

What happens when Android becomes the NEW Windows Mobile? You know it's headed in that direction now. There's like 3 or 4 different versions of the OS and the app community isn't doing well. When WP7 gets its footing in the market (iPhone already has), it's going to be really difficult to compete with these. Perhaps Android will be relegated to low-end smartphones

C:Sharp! said:
There's IGO8, Copilot... and some others. Or did I get you wrong?
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I mean the built in Nav software, which the new one is pretty cool. I could use Ndrive, but I really like the built in Nav.
Not anymore, afaik.
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Maybe it's because I'm using a port for the HTC Kaiser. If that's the case, that can be scratched off the list.
WhyBe said:
What happens when Android becomes the NEW Windows Mobile? You know it's headed in that direction now. There's like 3 or 4 different versions of the OS and the app community isn't doing well. When WP7 gets its footing in the market (iPhone already has), it's going to be really difficult to compete with these. Perhaps Android will be relegated to low-end smartphones
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Won't happen for various reasons. Windows Mobile was never really taken seriously by Microsoft until now, but Android has Google behind them.
It's a lot like what happened to Internet Explorer. When Microsoft won the browser war between Netscape, they left it completely alone. Suddenly FireFox, Chrome, Safari, and Opera are kicking it's ass. Same thing happened with Windows Mobile. iPhone, and Android appeared and took Microsoft by surprise.
Also, since it's linux based, it can never truly die. The community has it's hands on it now, and they'll never let go. Don't be surprised if we see Linux distros in the Future for many phones. Something like Ubuntu or Slackware could become common to see on cooked phone roms, in a couple of years.
iPhone and Windows Phone 7 will still be popular, but does anyone truly believe that phones with so many restrictions will last? I'm sure Microsoft is betting that the Xbox feature will grab people, much like Apple is betting on that their fan base will always grab customers.

Won't happen for various reasons. Windows Mobile was never really taken seriously by Microsoft until now, but Android has Google behind them.
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Google has one success, that is it's search engine. This does not automatically mean success with other endeavors.
It's a lot like what happened to Internet Explorer. When Microsoft won the browser war between Netscape, they left it completely alone. Suddenly FireFox, Chrome, Safari, and Opera are kicking it's ass.
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Nothing is kicking IE's ass. What world are you living in?
Same thing happened with Windows Mobile. iPhone, and Android appeared and took Microsoft by surprise.
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MS deserved it.
Also, since it's linux based, it can never truly die. The community has it's hands on it now, and they'll never let go. Don't be surprised if we see Linux distros in the Future for many phones. Something like Ubuntu or Slackware could become common to see on cooked phone roms, in a couple of years.
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It may not die, per se, but it definitely will never be big. Niche product at best. There's too much confusion in open systems. How many incompatible Android OS'es are out now? Modern smartphones will win or lose based on their apps. Androids app situation sucks right now.
iPhone and Windows Phone 7 will still be popular, but does anyone truly believe that phones with so many restrictions will last? I'm sure Microsoft is betting that the Xbox feature will grab people, much like Apple is betting on that their fan base will always grab customers.
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This is smart business. Use your existing successes to build a customer base. All smart companies do this...even Google.

WhyBe said:
Google has one success, that is it's search engine. This does not automatically mean success with other endeavors.
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Gmail
Google Map
Chrome Web Broswer
Google voice
YouTube
All this is offered for free.
Nothing is kicking IE's ass. What world are you living in?
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This world.
If you added IE6+IE7+IE8, then you can say it's more popular then FireFox. You have to wonder, if people are still using IE6 then it's most likely they probably don't know about other web browsers, or don't even know what one is. You know the type, logs on twitter, facebook, and myspace and uses AIM to chat to people.
It may not die, per se, but it definitely will never be big. Niche product at best. There's too much confusion in open systems. How many incompatible Android OS'es are out now?
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No more then Windows Mobile will have. We'll soon have legacy Windows Mobile 6.5, and Phone 7. Neither are compatible.
Modern smartphones will win or lose based on their apps. Androids app situation sucks right now.
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Not sure about Windows Phone 7, but iPhone has it horrible right now.
No porn apps
No emulators
No web browsers
No flash support
Android may not have as many pull my finger apps or farting apps as iPhone, but at least we can have all of the above. iPhone and Phone7 owners will be able to have 100 different choices of how to make fart noises from their phone, while I'll be able to view flash websites. While iPhone and Phone7 will enjoy half ass made games for their phones, eventually Android will get a Playstation and N64 emulator. I consider any Genesis or SNES game to be far superior then any 3D accelerated game they can put on those phones as is.
The biggest blunder from Apple was them pulling the porn apps. Everyone knows the internet and DVDs became popular due to porn. Enforcing that rule is sure suicide, despite the horrible image of me walking into a public bathroom and finding someone wacking off to porn on their Android phone.
When Mozilla ports FireFox to Android, I'll be able to use ABP and NoScript to have a truly secure surfing experience. While IE on Phone7 fails horribly on the Acid3 test. As it is IE9 gets a 55/100 on Acid3.
Just from what I've mentioned I say there's plenty of incentive to go with an open OS. Jail break your iPhone or **** break your Phone7, but you'll be in this endless battle between Microsoft or Apple.

Dukenukemx said:
Gmail
Google Map
Chrome Web Broswer
Google voice
YouTube
All this is offered for free.
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Chrome Web Browser? A success? You must be kidding me. No, I'm not saying it's a bad product. But can you imagine how much money a promo campaign like Google did for Chrome, would cost a third party? So you spend billions of dollars (even though "virtual" in this case) and get absolutely laughable market share. Success?
YouTube they bought for a ridiculous amount of money, and it's a cash disposer. Yeah, we all enjoy it, no doubt about it. The more we enjoy it the more money Google coughs out on it. Windows Mobile is a bigger success than this.
Google Maps? You forgot Gmail. Some 90%+ of Google's income comes from its home page. Not even Adsense, which ads a few percentage points. So no, Google hasn't had a single success in any area apart from search, even though they've been trying to diversify like crazy because they are really scared of what may happen if they lose their search engine domination. The problem is, by doing all this free stuff everywhere about the only thing they achieve is that they technically cannot "fail". Sure, you don't set revenue targets, you just burn cash, what's a failure?

I love WM 6.5.3 and right now my phone (TD2) is just perfect the way it is. And if someday I want something to change then I can just flash a new ROM, install a cab or write another tool on my own.
I hate Android because your applications are running in a Java VM and you can't access the OS kernel functions like you can with WM.
Though yesterday I just for fun run Android on a Touch Diamond. I have to admit the UI is really nice done, even though it isn't THAT MUCH different compared to the user experience you get with 6.5.3. Some window animations here and there and I love it like you can pull down the taskbar and I like the multiple homescreen thing. Though I couldn't do a lot of things with it because for most things it needed a data connection (I didn't plug in a SIM card) and USB/WiFi didn't work. Also it asked me to sign up for Google account all the time. On 6.5.3 on the other hand some things are quite better implemented, for example start menu or Sense. I also like it that you can reach all functions through your touch screen. On Android you're always forced to use the hard keys to close a window or get out of an app. After all I wonder if it's possible to hack into the taskbar or bottom bar like I do on WM but due to Java VM environment I doubt you can do that.
After all, right now there's no reason why I should switch to Android. However I don't know what the situation will be in the next 1-2 years. So in the end all I can say: On the longer run it might be the only OS able to replace 6.5.3 in the future but right now it's just too limited for my taste (in other words I can also say it doesn't give me enough features to forget about some limits). But I definitely keep an eye on it

vangrieg said:
Chrome Web Browser? A success? You must be kidding me. No, I'm not saying it's a bad product. But can you imagine how much money a promo campaign like Google did for Chrome, would cost a third party? So you spend billions of dollars (even though "virtual" in this case) and get absolutely laughable market share. Success?
YouTube they bought for a ridiculous amount of money, and it's a cash disposer. Yeah, we all enjoy it, no doubt about it. The more we enjoy it the more money Google coughs out on it. Windows Mobile is a bigger success than this.
Google Maps? You forgot Gmail. Some 90%+ of Google's income comes from its home page. Not even Adsense, which ads a few percentage points. So no, Google hasn't had a single success in any area apart from search, even though they've been trying to diversify like crazy because they are really scared of what may happen if they lose their search engine domination. The problem is, by doing all this free stuff everywhere about the only thing they achieve is that they technically cannot "fail". Sure, you don't set revenue targets, you just burn cash, what's a failure?
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+100
Thanks Vangrieg, you beat me to it

vangrieg said:
Chrome Web Browser? A success? You must be kidding me. No, I'm not saying it's a bad product. But can you imagine how much money a promo campaign like Google did for Chrome, would cost a third party? So you spend billions of dollars (even though "virtual" in this case) and get absolutely laughable market share. Success?
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It is success, even though the way to reach it is.... strange!?
But are Microsoft doing any better? They're just buying off companies if they need a new feature.

Google is buying new companies if they need a new feature - Android and YouTube are good examples. Microsoft isn't much better, but they have at least 2.5 sources of income - Windows, Office and Server/Tools. Now, that's a much better success because they sell that stuff. You have to be a complete loser to provide something that usually costs money for free, having a huge pile of cash and the world's largest web ad brokerage to not get a sizable market share. Yet Google does it all the time with Buzzes, Waves and all that acid-driven stuff that even tech savvy people rarely understand. And yeah, they'll muck up more than once with Android, the patent protection issue for OEMs is just the first bell that rang.

vangrieg said:
.. You have to be a complete loser to provide something that usually costs money for free ...
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xda-developers provide a lot of free stuff, are they losers too? I don't think so

XDA is not a business, we're here for fun. Oh, and one little nuance, XDA doesn't have 20 billion dollars to burn and can't put an ad on every freakin' web site out there.

Dukenukemx said:
Windows Mobile BAD
#1 Lots of problems with 3D acceleration support. Mainly due to OpenGL ES drivers.
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That's not a deficiency of Windows Mobile, it's a deficiency of phones manufactured by HTC. Users of the Toshiba TG01 and Acer neoTouch are very happy with their 3D support, and indeed with their hardware-accelerated video playback of virtually any codec and wrapper format.

vangrieg said:
Google is buying new companies if they need a new feature - Android and YouTube are good examples. Microsoft isn't much better, but they have at least 2.5 sources of income - Windows, Office and Server/Tools. Now, that's a much better success because they sell that stuff. You have to be a complete loser to provide something that usually costs money for free, having a huge pile of cash and the world's largest web ad brokerage to not get a sizable market share. Yet Google does it all the time with Buzzes, Waves and all that acid-driven stuff that even tech savvy people rarely understand. And yeah, they'll muck up more than once with Android, the patent protection issue for OEMs is just the first bell that rang.
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I don't understand it as well, but seems like it's working for them. Microsoft offer more products because they are around way longer. Google are only here for roughly 10 years. Look up what MS had to offer after 10 years of existence, which was in 1985.

Actually, if you carefully listen to what Google execs say, it's not working for them. They are very nervous. I agree that one of the key problems is that they just started to diversify. They are doing too many mistakes though which are relatively easy to avoid. It's actually a funny phenomenon you can often see in companies driven by engineers because they're so into technologies and inventions and such that they just can't resist pushing their cool new things out the door. Google is in fact a lot like Microsoft, only less mature and disciplined, in this regard. A contrast to this approach is Apple where hardly anyone ever sees a beta product, and the company is incredibly focused.
Apart from product development, there's one more thing where Google doesn't have a lot of experience, and that's partnering with others. Jobs once said that he absolutely admires Gates's abilities in this regard, saying that in fact, with all the spats, fan base animosity, tensions and all, Microsoft is the only long-term partner Apple has had through all these years, and the partnership works amazingly well for both parties. He even noted that MS is the second largest developer of software for Apple products after Apple. Google has a long way to learn how to maze through all these issues and make lasting relationships. It's one thing to attract everyone with a free product and give OEMs better bargaining position against Microsoft with a mobile OS, it's a totally different thing to carry it on to market leadership with so many conflicting interests and challenges.
Sure OEMs flirt with open source OSes, IBMs and HPs of the world are investing a lot of resources into Linux development and all, but at the end of the day which OS shows up as "recommended" on their web sites? Sure HTC is all about Android, Open Handset Alliance and all that PR stuff these days, but what does its CEO say when asked why HD2 was a WM device? "We have to take care of Windows Mobile first".

WhyBe said:
What happens when Android becomes the NEW Windows Mobile?
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This is not going to happen.
Contrary to what some people believe, "fragmentation" does not hurt Android much and it's not what made Windows Mobile die.
Windows Mobile died, because it got zero support from Microsoft over many years. There was no money and no developers. They could easily have made it competitive to the iPhone within a year. But they didn't. It took them one and a half years to even figure out what to do and end all the internal battles, which is an eternity in the mobile space.
Google stand behind their mobile OS and you can be sure that they will fix any problems that emerge. If fragmentation becomes too much of an issue, they'll fix it. If the UI gets outdated, they'll fix it. Microsoft didn't fix anything.
And aside from that, it will take Windows Phone 7 at least another year, to even become an option. Handsets must be launched, bugs will have to be fixed and the Marketplace has to be filled. Only then will it be competitive, if ever.
That's plenty of time before you can even consider Windows Phone 7, thus switching to Android now is not wasted money.

RAMMANN said:
I don't understand it as well, but seems like it's working for them. Microsoft offer more products because they are around way longer. Google are only here for roughly 10 years. Look up what MS had to offer after 10 years of existence, which was in 1985.
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How can you compare this?
A lot of what Google has done the last 10 years is based on what MS and others made possible the first 10 years.
It's like saying that Ferrari has accomplished more then Ford because they have made better and faster cars the last 10 years then Ford did the first 10.
Ferrari might not have existed today if their wasn't someone that made engines and wheels before them.
Android is the first (open source) Linux OS that has been sold on a device. although you call it open source it's not more open the WM or iPhone.
Google is controlling the development of the OS and anyone can make applications for it.. whats the difference now between android, WM or iPhone? and witch one of them is most open source? all of them have the same. A company that develops the OS and developers making the apps.
I only see MS going less open source with WP7.
and to not having porn apps and other stuff on iPhone well jailbreak and you have it.
Now some will say you can't do anything without jailbraking an iphone. Well without Hard spl you are also kind of sucked on WM.
Android has already several updates and can't be run by all older devices.
WM also have a few updates but a wizard that is quite an old device can run WM 6.5.

Is there anything good about WP7

Ok now... we all have heard whats bad, or not so good or what can be improved with WP7.
But on the other hand anyone has good news for all of us to contiune with windows and not jump ship to android or iPhone. At the moment I dont see the why I would want to buy an WP7 yet! maybe in few years when it matures as an OS.

Windows phone 7 gives you a lot of choice in hardware devices, unlike the iPhone, unless you don't mind being stuck with one manufacture (see how that turned bad with the iPhone 4 reception issue). I think this is a big point especially for people who like physical keyboards and different shapes or colours.
Now you are thinking "Android offers a wide range of hardware as well, so what is the difference?" One thing if find bad about the Android ecosystem is OS fragmentation. I know being open source is a big plus, but in this case it backfired because anyone can put the OS on any device, so we ended up with a lot of devices not getting upgraded by their OEMs/carriers rather than let Google handle updating devices.
Microsoft is tackling this problem by putting minimum device requirements so that any update Microsoft releases, it can be easily pushed to all kinds of devices.
So overall, I think Microsoft is approching this market in a balanced manner, they are not extermly closed (think Apple) nor very open (Google). Which is a good thing for developers and end users.
There are a lot of other things, like Windows Live and Xbox integration (if you care about those).

From a developer point of view, it's also the most attractive mobile platform that ever been made. It's amazingly easy to make complex apps and games, and it's a standard way of doing it, opposed to iPhone and Android's "lets reinvent the wheel" technologies.
Plus, it's the only phone development environment that have a visual editor (Expression Blend), which is a big plus for rapid development.
(Not to mention, you don't have to buy a Mac to code for it!)
From a consumer point of view, it's a strong phone, works with all existing services, specially all Microsoft ones, but also all the others. It'll be the first phone with Windows Live Messenger available on, and Zune integration.
Basically you get all the power of Microsofts platforms, in a single device, without the limitations of Apple. Everybody who's used to using Windows will get a greater experience with this phone, than any other phone on the market.
So it's a win/win/win, situation

I'm getting one just for the fact it has Zune on it, this alone makes it worthy of a purchase if you use multimedia heavily.

Also I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the things the OP consider "bad" is what the majority considers "good"

Windcape said:
So it's a win/win/win, situation
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Hahaha.
Good points.

The biggest thing is the UI. Frankly put; it's innovative, attractive, intuitive, and just works really well. When you get your hands on one and play around with it for a few minutes you'll see.

I'm stoked about Window Phone 7. I know if won't have as much freedom out the door as Windows 6.5 but I've seen the demo's and from what I can see it looks great. Here's my top 10 good list:
1. Actual Xbox Live integration with achievements
2. Finger Friendly
3. Sharp modern UI
4. Hubs that bring in a multitude of information that covers the work of many apps, but all in one place.
5. Good minimum requirements
6. Easy and well thought out development tools.
7. Everything about Zune all in one Hub.
8. Great Social networking integration
9. Multiple exchange accounts, emails and calendars.
10. Great use of Office on mobile.

What draws me to WP7 is really metro. I've tinkered a lot with windows phones over the years leveraging different UIs, skins, themes, etc. But really my favorite UI for my phone thus far has been titanium. I prefer the typography. Being that wp7 is a titanium enhancement, it suites me very well.
darkmurder said:
I'm getting one just for the fact it has Zune on it, this alone makes it worthy of a purchase if you use multimedia heavily.
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You should be able to use Zune with any windows phone. I have zune pass and use my omnia II to play the drm music, so you don't have to wait for wp7 to have a "zune" phone.

WTB Zune Pass in Europe already!

Windcape said:
WTB Zune Pass in Europe already!
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It's great, my only compliant is that you have to backup your mp3s if you purchase them or when you use your credits. It doesn't let you redownload them, probably because of some legal nonsense.
It's not too bad with 25GB from Skydrive, and using the Gladinet client to map your cloud drive to a physical drive.

let's stop being "real" and start being realistic
I have a vague feeling that people on this topic are working for the Microsoft development team...
as a faithful user of the most advanced pocketpc ever built ever since it launched (htc universal or jasjar) I'll just reply to those "strengths"
First ond foremost, the windows mobile had its success because users were able to hack it and expand it BEYOND of what they payed for. if we limited ourselves to what M$ provided, this site wouldn't exist and the HTC would have gone bankrupt.
1. Actual Xbox Live integration with achievements
You have Xbox and yet you are going to be playing on a phone?
2. Finger Friendly
in addition to every single SW company having developed the touch finger application keyboard, there are devices with their own keyboards, which actually work MUCH better then the touch mode ever will because you can feel the keys and you're able to predict where the next one is, at least until they invent the physically morphing touch screen.
3. Sharp modern UI
simplistic doesn't mean modern....ever! there is a FLAT SQUARE and Arial TEXT on it...that's a post-it for retarded. SPB mobile shell for instance gave the smooth design and modern hi-tech look to 6.1 phones. their only limitation was the processor and the memory. but that's how the digital revolution started - microsoft made ever more demanding OSes and Intel made processors to match. If you start spinning in circles around an antiquated graphics and limited applications, why would they innovate?
4. Hubs that bring in a multitude of information that covers the work of many apps, but all in one place.
apps that cannot be made by anyone else without a license by microsoft. and no one is using microsoft products on their pocketpc's because they are inefficient, large and expensive.
5. Good minimum requirements
nokia's s40 phones require even less resources, and offer greater UI, usability and stability. and they are as customizeable as the win 7, and yet people don't seriously consider using them as a PDA capable to integrate with the market's dominant and upcoming applications.
6. Easy and well thought out development tools.
We'll see...
7. Everything about Zune all in one Hub.
Zune is a MUSIC PLAYER! PERIOD! it's function is to play music! what everything?
8. Great Social networking integration
if you're referring to that travesty of facebook integration, I used the Windows Live Messenger Beta and let me tell you how it works: the system makes assumptions that videos and most popular items demand our attention, and they are in big, while the rest is small, so it's not about keeping track of your friends, it's about flashing content to a moron public.
9. Multiple exchange accounts, emails and calendars.
Will we be able to activesync our device over the wi-fi or via internet??
10. Great use of Office on mobile.
I would gladly pay good money to see a microsoft developer use a touch-only phone to create and modify a corporate-standard excel or even word file...

Dude you are in the wrong thread.
This is where you should post -> WP7 is complete FAIL
vk2000 said:
I have a vague feeling that people on this topic are working for the Microsoft development team...
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Take of your foilhat.

vk2000 said:
I have a vague feeling that people on this topic are working for the Microsoft development team...
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Click to collapse
I'm not, but I'll apply for a position in 2 years time when I'm finished with my second bachelor.
vk2000 said:
if we limited ourselves to what M$ provided, this site wouldn't exist
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Funny, I thought that Windows Mobile development was the original topic of xda-developers. It's not like the name itself says so, no no.
vk2000 said:
1. Actual Xbox Live integration with achievements
You have Xbox and yet you are going to be playing on a phone?
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Yes. Welcome to 2010.
vk2000 said:
3. Sharp modern UI
simplistic doesn't mean modern....ever! there is a FLAT SQUARE and Arial TEXT on it...that's a post-it for retarded. SPB mobile shell for instance gave the smooth design and modern hi-tech look to 6.1 phones. their only limitation was the processor and the memory. but that's how the digital revolution started - microsoft made ever more demanding OSes and Intel made processors to match. If you start spinning in circles around an antiquated graphics and limited applications, why would they innovate?
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I see you have zero experience in usability or design. Go read some Jakob Nielsen, and come back when you find yourself in a suitable position to discuss usability design on phones.
vk2000 said:
4. Hubs that bring in a multitude of information that covers the work of many apps, but all in one place.
apps that cannot be made by anyone else without a license by microsoft. and no one is using microsoft products on their pocketpc's because they are inefficient, large and expensive.
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Clearly you been living in a cave for the last five years. The developer license also grants you the ability to host your applications on the marketplace, and is common practice for all mobile developers. Even Google have it for Android.
vk2000 said:
5. Good minimum requirements
nokia's s40 phones r equire even less resources, and offer greater UI, usability and stability. and they are as customizeable as the win 7, and yet people don't seriously consider using them as a PDA capable to integrate with the market's dominant and upcoming applications.
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See again you completely misunderstood what the customers want. And the minimum requirements is so you don't get ****ty phones like all Android devices from 2009 / early 2010.
vk2000 said:
6. Easy and well thought out development tools.
We'll see...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, we already seen. Visual Studio and Expression Blend goes years back, and is popular and known development tools. Microsoft have the largest developer community on earth (MSDN), and they are so far the only who managed to actually create so much community around their technology and tools. Even the Linux community can't follow here.
And most of the developers in MSDN are professionals, so it's used for solving real-life problems. And if you're a consumer, and not a developer, you won't understand the importance of this.
Also XNA available on WP7 means it's the first phone with a gaming framework available from day one.
vk2000 said:
7. Everything about Zune all in one Hub.
Zune is a MUSIC PLAYER! PERIOD! it's function is to play music! what everything?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, Zune is a online music-service, a desktop music player ,and a music-player device. And in WP7, the online service and desktop client will work along with the phone. A lot of us like to use our smartphones for music, for example, while biking to work or studies.
vk2000 said:
8. Great Social networking integration
if you're referring to that travesty of facebook integration, I used the Windows Live Messenger Beta and let me tell you how it works: the system makes assumptions that videos and most popular items demand our attention, and they are in big, while the rest is small, so it's not about keeping track of your friends, it's about flashing content to a moron public.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Microsoft don't make assumptions, they got detailed statistics over the functionality people use in Windows Live Messenger. Just because you don't behave like the other 300 million users, doesn't make it wrong.
It's designed for the average consumer, and they done a very good job with that. More consumers = more people to buy our apps = more money for us.
vk2000 said:
9. Multiple exchange accounts, emails and calendars.
Will we be able to activesync our device over the wi-fi or via internet??
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Both
vk2000 said:
10. Great use of Office on mobile.
I would gladly pay good money to see a microsoft developer use a touch-only phone to create and modify a corporate-standard excel or even word file...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Phones are less meant for modify, as for accessing the information in the said data.
It's handy if you're on the road, and want to pull out some data to compare with people you're discussing with or similar.

vk2000
3. Sharp modern UI
simplistic doesn't mean modern....ever! there is a FLAT SQUARE and Arial TEXT on it...that's a post-it for retarded.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You nail that one!

Actually the font is Segoe WP. And the flat squares will be replaced with images and partially display icons among others.
Which makes it even better than just a bunch of techno-color icons.

clearly you guys are either very young or like to suck up to your (hoped) employer a lot
quoting the only author you know, doesn't make you smart, it makes you a charlatan. you should find a good dictionary if you don't know what that word is, since you clearly don't understand what I am saying anyway.
If you're going to play games on something small, you should buy a PSP
and
I've been following the IT development ever since I was 8 and computers ran on Windows 3.11
I don't require a degree in design to state clearly as a user who is going to pay 300-1000 euros, that a PDA should be
1) USABLE
2) reliable
3) USABLE
4) customizable and upgradeable
the fact that people are buying does not mean that the product is good, they're either poised with offensive marketing, like apple does, or they don't have any better choice! Statistics are meaningless more often then not, and you would know their significance if you studied statistics, 4 different types of sociology, macroeconomics and international financial relations, on your way to your M.Sc., like I did
games on the phone existed since Sun decided to make Java for mobile markets, so... a decade of "nothing new" to you . if windows 7 was able to reach the sophistication of the mobile gaming consoles, it would have been something, otherwise it's a child's toy, not suitable for business!
given you know nothing about the mobile market before you learned to talk and talk-back, I'm not surprised you would be satisfied even with yet another shade of "solitaire"
and as for my design capabilities, my photographic portfolio and web-design are always a winner what do you got to offer besides a big tongue and lack of arguments?

Windcape said:
Actually the font is Segoe WP. And the flat squares will be replaced with images and partially display icons among others.
Which makes it even better than just a bunch of techno-color icons.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
we went from 3d transparent and interactive icons BACK to a SQUARE 1, junior...
you should familiarize yourself with the hard work of so many people on this forum who are trying to change the OS from "default to outstanding" for free and for the benefit of everyone

So you think your personal preferences makes up for the 300 million target users that Microsoft have in the Windows Live and Zune cloud?
You think you can invalidate a business-model just because someone done something similar before? You think the phone sucks because you don't like it, even you haven't got the slightest idea how it works, how to develop for it or how to sell applications for it (or for phones in general).
From a consumer, business and software-engineering point of view, WP7 is damn near perfect.
So how about you let us know how old you actually are, and what you actually study, if you absolutely want to include personal attacks in your qq'ing.

vk2000 said:
we went from 3d transparent and interactive icons BACK to a SQUARE 1, junior...
you should familiarize yourself with the hard work of so many people on this forum who are trying to change the OS from "default to outstanding" for free and for the benefit of everyone
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And do you have any idea why they did this? Have you ever read a usability study of a smartphone? Have you ever done a usability study of any device, or interface at all?
Or could it be that the professionals know more than you do.

Theory Regarding the Lack of Bug Fixes and Slowness of Updates

Ok, so here is my theory why it is taking Microsoft so long to release updates and bug fixes. I think the Windows Phone team is currently recoding Metro to run on top of Windows 8 instead of Windows CE. All the updates they are talking about down the road will be integrated into the new Windows 8 platform. Anyone else think this may be the case.

randude said:
Ok, so here is my theory why it is taking Microsoft so long to release updates and bug fixes. I think the Windows Phone team is currently recoding Metro to run on top of Windows 8 instead of Windows CE. All the updates they are talking about down the road will be integrated into the new Windows 8 platform. Anyone else think this may be the case.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That'd be EPIC if it were true.

I'm fairly confident that WP8 will indeed run ontop of Windows 8.

why ?
why would you want wp8 when 7 is still so immature ? a complete rewrite again ? id rather see wp7 mature and actually be updated as promised before a new version was beta'd.

ohgood said:
why would you want wp8 when 7 is still so immature ? a complete rewrite again ? id rather see wp7 mature and actually be updated as promised before a new version was beta'd.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I very much enjoy my WP7 device thank you. There is no reason for me not to want a WP8 next year.
In any case, merging Windows CE and Windows "proper" makes perfect sense. I see no good reason to maintain two completely different codebases (Windows CE and Windows 8) once Windows runs on ARM. In many ways there is no need for a complete rewrite as Windows CE (albeit very old) was always the ARM (or, mobile if you wish) version of Windows - it includes many of the very same underlaying principles.
What many people are missing is that WP7 is not an OS as such, the OS is Windows CE. WP7 is the shell. Porting this to Windows 8 should require much less effort than maintaining WinCE.
Since [most] all third-party WP7 apps are frameworked it also means any existing apps will work on WP8.
If done correctly (and I know, this is Microsoft we are talking about - chances are slim) it would also enable devs to code/design apps for Windows Phone and Windows Slate simultaneously. Rather than offer two different versions the app would adapt to the form-factor it's currently running on.

I think they have to. Especially at the rate the competition is going, they will have to merge. They will have to do it fast, if they want to stay relevant.

from what I've read, many people feel that Microsoft will release "Mango" as 7.5, and then WP8 to coencide with Windows 8...bumping up a version number doesn't mean it's a total rewrite...just that it adds enough features to be considered a major enough update to get a new number. For example, iOS 4 wasn't a rewrite of iOS 3, and android 2.x isn't a total rewrite of android 1.x

vetvito said:
I think they have to. Especially at the rate the competition is going, they will have to merge. They will have to do it fast, if they want to stay relevant.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep, and I'm sure Apple is going to have OS/X on Phones and Tablets next year.
I swear some of you people don't even think this through completely before making such baseless statements.
There's nothing saying they have to merge.
Windows just needed ARM support, which is basically done (and Microsoft probably was working on it for years beforehand - CE already basically worked on ARM and they've supported other platforms in the past) and of course another UI layer which they are working on.
However, this says nothing about the tons of Windows Apps which are optimized for non-touch keyboard+mouse use that will be basically broken on a touchscreen device.
You can use any HP touchscreen computer and see just how clunky a Win32 application is on a touchscreen computer. I don't see a majority of vendors running to revamp their application UIs to support touch, and a UI layer cannot do this on the fly due to the multitude of layouts, etc. used in Win32 applications.
Most vendors will basically have to create a touch and non-touch version of their applications.
That's why Apple is using iOS and not OS/X on their iPad. Icons and Widgets work better on larger tablet screens than Tiles, so while WP7 looks great on phones and certainly scales really well to larger/higher res displays... It would look terribad on a tablet, and lead to a ridiculous amount of wasted screen real estate.

I swear you must have misinterpreted my post.
Who said anything about OSX on a phone?
Jobs already said that wouldn't happen. IOS, WebOS(debatable) , and Android will continue to pave the future. Unless Microsoft does something, and I'm not talking about a Windows 7 tablet.
Windows is slow as hell compared to the competition. Look at Windows Media Center, and loom at Google TV, Apple TV.

ohgood said:
why would you want wp8 when 7 is still so immature ? a complete rewrite again ? id rather see wp7 mature and actually be updated as promised before a new version was beta'd.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That does not explain why MS failed to solve all the bugs listed here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=9153088&postcount=1
the NoDo update, that arrived so late, shall logically have solved must of the above mentioned bugs/issues. But it didn't.
What are MS waiting for? They behave like they have no competitors.

If the applications are all managed code than who cares whether it's WinCE or Win32?

vangrieg said:
If the applications are all managed code than who cares whether it's WinCE or Win32?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There are some differences between Silverlight on Windows Phone and Desktop. I believe Silverlight on Windows Phone is a fork of Silverlight 3, whereas the desktop is currently Silverlight 4. It'd be nice to see them converge at Silverlight 5 (crossing fingers for MIX 2011). I've heard plenty of rumors that Microsoft is at work on the compatibility issues.

Sure, but Silverlight can be updated with or without changing the underlying OS.

N8ter said:
I swear some of you people don't even think this through completely before making such baseless statements.
There's nothing saying they have to merge.
Windows just needed ARM support, which is basically done (and Microsoft probably was working on it for years beforehand - CE already basically worked on ARM and they've supported other platforms in the past) and of course another UI layer which they are working on.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're right - there is nothing saying they have to. It makes sense business wise though. Rather than having two teams working full out maintaining two similar yet very different OSes they can have one team working on maintaining one OS running on both platforms.
CE does run on ARM, it has done so for years and it's been in use in the enterprise sector for as long. Problem is, WinCE, even in it's later versions is old tech. Not just from a UI perspective but the core OS is old tech.
N8ter said:
However, this says nothing about the tons of Windows Apps which are optimized for non-touch keyboard+mouse use that will be basically broken on a touchscreen device.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They won't be broken. They will function just as they have always done - with a mouse and/or keyboard. You can't take any old Win32 app and run it on ARM anyway, that's not the idea behind it at all.
N8ter said:
Most vendors will basically have to create a touch and non-touch version of their applications.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again, no. They don't have to do anything of the kind. They can do so to stay relevant - especially if their app is the type of app that would be useful on a tablet, but they don't have to. Just because Win8 will have a tablet specific UI does not mean it will not also have the old desktop UI we're all used to. You need to make a distinction between OS and UI, they are two very different things.
arturobandini said:
That does not explain why MS failed to solve all the bugs listed here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=9153088&postcount=1
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
While I agree, there are still some bugs in the OS, NoDo did fix the major ones. Most of the remaining ones are non reproducible or actually "as designed". Also, many of them are not OS bugs but rather bugs that only appear on certain handsets.
PG2G said:
There are some differences between Silverlight on Windows Phone and Desktop. I believe Silverlight on Windows Phone is a fork of Silverlight 3, whereas the desktop is currently Silverlight 4. It'd be nice to see them converge at Silverlight 5 (crossing fingers for MIX 2011). I've heard plenty of rumors that Microsoft is at work on the compatibility issues.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
True, but that's of little concern really. As long as SLx is backwards compatible - which it will be, all existing apps will continue to run just fine. Also, with Silverlight finally coming to the Xbox they have all three screens covered (personally I would have preferred a new iteration of Media Center, but there's still time for that) - TV, Desktop and Mobile. The idea is that we as developers can code/design for the audience rather than the platform. Great things ahead if you ask me.

vetvito said:
I swear you must have misinterpreted my post.
Who said anything about OSX on a phone?
Jobs already said that wouldn't happen. IOS, WebOS(debatable) , and Android will continue to pave the future. Unless Microsoft does something, and I'm not talking about a Windows 7 tablet.
Windows is slow as hell compared to the competition. Look at Windows Media Center, and loom at Google TV, Apple TV.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
AppleTV and GoogleTV are Appliance products. Microsoft did have a TV thing a while back, but that's another story. Windows Media Center is fine.
If people aren't expecting Apple to put OS/X on tablets, etc. Why would you make a statement basically they have no choice but to merge WP7 and Windows eventually?
Also, I was talking about Windows 8 (which runs on ARM, and is coming with touch UI), not Windows 7...

N8ter said:
AppleTV and GoogleTV are Appliance products. Microsoft did have a TV thing a while back, but that's another story. Windows Media Center is fine.
If people aren't expecting Apple to put OS/X on tablets, etc. Why would you make a statement basically they have no choice but to merge WP7 and Windows eventually?
Also, I was talking about Windows 8 (which runs on ARM, and is coming with touch UI), not Windows 7...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My choice of words was wrong. My bad. I was meaning that they should do something, something faster than what they are doing. Phones are moving closer and closer to PC capabilities.
Windows Media Center sucks balls compared to Google TV, and Apple TV. I'm seriously thinking about throwing my HTPC out the window. Its embarrassing. I mentioned it because Microsoft basically invented this market, and now they've been left behind. Sort of like what's going on now.

vetvito said:
Windows Media Center sucks balls compared to Google TV, and Apple TV. I'm seriously thinking about throwing my HTPC out the window. Its embarrassing. I mentioned it because Microsoft basically invented this market, and now they've been left behind. Sort of like what's going on now.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Windows Media Center is still the absolute best platform out there. Google TV has nothing on MC7. That said, they [MS] have definitely mismanaged the "platform", I say "platform" because Microsoft never saw it as a platform (God knows why?!). WES (Windows Embedded - which is basically a modularized version of Windows 7) should change this though. There were a few MC7 appliances on show at CES earlier this year and if they can deliver they will kill the competition.
From a WAF perspective nothing is close to MC7. From a live TV perspective the other platforms aren't even in the same ballpark.

emigrating said:
Windows Media Center is still the absolute best platform out there. Google TV has nothing on MC7. That said, they [MS] have definitely mismanaged the "platform", I say "platform" because Microsoft never saw it as a platform (God knows why?!). WES (Windows Embedded - which is basically a modularized version of Windows 7) should change this though. There were a few MC7 appliances on show at CES earlier this year and if they can deliver they will kill the competition.
From a WAF perspective nothing is close to MC7. From a live TV perspective the other platforms aren't even in the same ballpark.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'd like to know more. Honestly elaborate more. Media Center is awfully slow compared to Google TV. I don't have a gtv, but I demoed it. You can search for shows and the web in a overlay of what you're currently watching on gtv. On my HTPC running windows 7, that's impossible. Starting Media Center is unbelievably slow, and browsing through media in media center is not fun. Its laggy as hell. On GTV its instant.

vetvito said:
I'd like to know more. Honestly elaborate more. Media Center is awfully slow compared to Google TV. I don't have a gtv, but I demoed it. You can search for shows and the web in a overlay of what you're currently watching on gtv. On my HTPC running windows 7, that's impossible. Starting Media Center is unbelievably slow, and browsing through media in media center is not fun. Its laggy as hell. On GTV its instant.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you find MC7 to be slow there is a problem with your machine (either hardware or software wise). I'm running it on several HTPCs in the house and there is no lag what so ever.
Comparing it to Google TV is kind of like comparing apples and oranges. They are both fruits, but that's pretty much it. Google TV does not have a live TV option as such - you have to feed the output of your DVR or whatever thru the gtv box. MC7 on the other hand accepts tuners (either local or remote) and acts as your DVR.
If you press the Guide button on your MC7 remote while watching TV it will overlay ontop of what you're watching, exactly like gtv. The guide is also one of the best in the industry (depending on your location of course). You also get [some] internet TV built in, but more can be added by installing a Hulu plugin. In addition you have Netflix etc.
I will agree that browsing the media on MC7 using the built-in functionality is rather lacking, but there are plenty of third-party apps that help with this. myTV is great for downloaded/recorded TV shows and My Movies is great for movies.
I've been using HTPCs for around 10 years and MC7 is IMO still the best option available and I've tried them all - multiple times

I'm running on a AMD 6000, dual core 3.2 ghz. 4gb of ram. That's more than enough for media.
Have you tried XBMC? It runs circles around Media Center. I haven't tried those plugins you mentioned, I will do that today.

30 Days With Windows Phone 7

http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/239405/30_days_with_windows_phone_7.html
Great series!

Yeah Molly Wood should take a look at this................. Maybe she will get some pointers on how to post a blog..

nodo review? meh

i find not good serie.iphone user test wp7.ridiculous.very objective

Saux64 said:
nodo review? meh
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you read past page 2 you will see that he reviews mango...
---------- Post added at 01:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:18 AM ----------
Dante187 said:
i find not good serie.iphone user test wp7.ridiculous.very objective
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
and why not he dosnt like android so what else is there? blackberry?

you've misunderstood me. I think the test is not good because it tests a iphone user. he will find his iphone always better.But it is not what I find. I've meant.
i love my wp7.
greetings

in summary
Users shouldn't have to buy smartphones or mobile platforms that are still knowingly under development, and vendors like Microsoft shouldn't expect users to support a half-baked platform, or pay for the privilege of beta testing it. When Windows Phone 7.5 "Mango" devices hit the street, Windows Phone 7 will finally be what it should have been before Microsoft launched it in the first place.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
shounds fair in my opinion

Dante187 said:
you've misunderstood me. I think the test is not good because it tests a iphone user. he will find his iphone always better.But it is not what I find. I've meant.
i love my wp7.
greetings
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Read. The. Article. Give it a chance, I find that he's pretty fair in addressing the strengths and weakness of WP7.5. That's more than most and if you don't think every OS has something to improve or work on this article or, well let's face it, reality isn't really for you.
I'm glad you love it. I love my girlfriend but she takes a wicked dump sometimes. Nothing is perfect.

Some good points/snippets for general users.
1.Windows Phone 7 lets me pin not
only apps , but contacts, and even
websites to the start screen. In a
word, this is "awesome".
Why? Because, it makes the
smartphone both more
customizable- -enabling me to make
the start screen into exactly what I
need it to be, and more functional--
giving me simple one-tap access to
the apps, contacts, and sites I need
most.
2. So, while it is impressive that Apple
has more than half a million apps,
or that Android has more than
250,000 apps, and it may seem like
Windows Phone 7 can't compete
with its measly 30,000 apps, the
reality is that 30,000 is way more
than I will need. As long as
Windows Phone 7 has the 10 or 20
apps I actually use, it will be fine. But, for the new kid on the block it
seems to be progressing nicely, and
it offers an app shopping and buying
experience that is at least equal to
its rivals, and in some ways it's a
little better.
3. That brings me back to the
Windows Phone 7 Marketplace.
With Windows Phone 7, I have the
option to either "try " or "buy" a
given app in most cases. Many paid
apps offer a trial option as well. If I
click on "try ", a free trial version of
the app installs and I can check it
out and see if it works as advertised,
and that it meets my needs before I
decide whether or not to spend the
money to actually buy it.
4. I prefer the
Samsung Focus over the HTC HD7S .
I didn't have any problems with the
HTC during the week or so I have
been using it, but the Focus just
feels much more comfortable in my
hand. I also ran some side by side
trials and found the Focus to be
noticeably faster than the HTC
HD7S .
5. The "Me" tile gives me simple, one-
tap access to post messages to my
various networks.It turns out that it
is not quite as narcissistic as it
seems at face value. The same way
having a live tile for my wife lets me
have quick, one- tap access to
communicate with her through
whatever means are available, the
"Me" tile gives me quick, one-tap
access to post messages, check in to
locations, or review notifications
from my various services and social
networks.
6. The
Windows Phone 7 Marketplace has
only a fraction of the apps available
for iOS. Some of the tools I use
regularly are just core apps that
come pre-installed in Windows
Phone 7. Things like Alarms,
Calculator, Calendar, and Camera
are already there, so I don't need to
find replacements. I frequently use
my smartphone to look things up on
the Web, and Windows Phone 7 has
the Internet Explorer browser pre-
installed, so I am all set there.
7. When it comes to entertainment, I
rely on apps like the Kindle app
from Amazon, the Netflix app, the
YouTube app, and other tools like
Fandango and IMDB. All five have
Windows Phone 7 apps , and all five
are free. So far, I am doing pretty
good and haven't spent a penny.
For productivity on the iPhone I
have the Apple iWorks apps- -Pages,
Numbers, and Keynote-- as well as
Documents To Go. With Windows
Phone 7, I have Office Mobile apps
installed with the OS, and integrated
with cloud- based file storage on my
SkyDrive, so I don't need to replace
those apps.
8. Out of the gate, Windows Phone 7
lacked copy and paste, third-party
multitasking, SD memory card slots,
Wi-Fi hotspot tethering, Adobe
Flash, and a variety of other
capabilities that Microsoft knew
users would expect. It is like the
Windows Phone 7 developers were
working in a basement sequestered
away from following any tech news
and completely oblivious to what
rival mobile operating systems like
iOS and Android were going
through.
So, now Windows Phone 7 has copy
and paste, and lets you do custom
ringtones, and has some form of
multitasking, and many of the other
features and capabilities it should
have had when it launched. There
are still some notable exceptions
like Adobe Flash, and SD memory is
only available on some Windows
Phone 7 smartphone models.
9. There were things I liked about
Windows Phone 7 out of the gate,
but overall I wasn't very impressed .
With the launch of the "NoDo"
update, WP7 got significantly better.
With "Mango", it is finally a mobile
OS worthy of going head to head
with iOS and Android .
10. Angry Birds is still Angry Birds. I
don't really see any difference
between launching birds at pigs
hiding in structures regardless of
platform. But, I played Need for
Speed on both phones (Need for
Speed: Shift on the iPhone 4 , and
Need for Speed: Undercover on
Windows Phone 7) , and the
animation seemed smoother on
Windows Phone 7 with more
vibrant detail.
11. you're a speed nut (and who isn't ?),
you might appreciate that Mango is
running a full desktop version of
the IE9 browser, not a mobile
variation.
Microsoft demonstrated this IE9
capability in Mango in April for
Windows Phone developers, who
cheered when a browsing speed test
favored Windows Phone over
phones running Android ,
BlackBerry and iOS. Again on
Tuesday, a speed test favored
Windows Phone on Mango and IE9 .

Professor Simon Peach said:
in summary
shounds fair in my opinion
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think he is done as of yet as the title reads "30 days" and he is only on day 17 so we have not gotten his conclusion as of yet..

Saux64 said:
nodo review? meh
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Read day 2, they sent him a Mango device....(did not get till day 6)
Read up to day 16, def an iOS fan, so from their view in 1/2 way through the 30 days, it's a good read over all.
I think it points more about the flaws in WP7 that iOS does better than the major of the good things. Also, he brings up problems that could be turned off by a simple switch.
I guess if you were a true iPhone lover and thinking about going to WP7, it might be a good read, as the writer loves his iPhone and it would give you a view from that.

He's giving it a fair shake and really likes a lot, but it's just his opinion
My big beef, is the same I had with Molly. I LIKE the touch for instructions functionatlity of the mango navigation. However, I agree, it should be an option, IN ALL NAV SYSTEMS.

I don't want to sound rude or blunt, but your opinion is kind of irrelevant here.
There is only one reason Microsoft implemented it the way they did, and it wasn't because they thought it was better. If there had not been a licensing issue, the option you prefer would not exist. They would have implemented a fully automated nav system.
And to be brutally honest, if a standalone nav system were to be released that used this mechanism, I would never even give it a second look. It is completely pathetic. It could easily become the cause of auto accidents, and using it may even be illegal under some US states' anti-texting / distracted driving laws (where hands-free nav systems are allowed, since they prevent interaction when the vehicle is in motion).

They should have licensed the data form an entity that would allow them to deploy a decent navigation integration, then. How about, the same entity they use for Bing Maps on Windows Mobile.
And yes, using a WP7 device with that Navigation would get you pulled over on the interstate here, and you'd get a ticket. They are very strict with texting laws, and there was even an attempt to ban cell phone use in cars, period.
They can do what they want. I have two phones and on my Android both the preloaded TeleNav and Google Maps have free TBT with Voice Guidance in them.
The #1 issue I have is safety. It just boggles my mind that this idea was allowed out of the discussion room, nevermind onto users' devices. It's just irresponsible, IMO, on a very severe level.
---------- Post added at 02:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:27 AM ----------
DavidinCT said:
Read day 2, they sent him a Mango device....(did not get till day 6)
Read up to day 16, def an iOS fan, so from their view in 1/2 way through the 30 days, it's a good read over all.
I think it points more about the flaws in WP7 that iOS does better than the major of the good things. Also, he brings up problems that could be turned off by a simple switch.
I guess if you were a true iPhone lover and thinking about going to WP7, it might be a good read, as the writer loves his iPhone and it would give you a view from that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Are you guys seriously going to counter every bit of percieved negative criticism of this OS by claming the reviewer is a fan or fanboi of another OS.
Is it possible not to be? I mean, it's not like WP7 has been out since 2007 or 2008/9...

Professor Simon Peach said:
in summary
Users shouldn't have to buy smartphones or mobile platforms that are still knowingly under development, and vendors like Microsoft shouldn't expect users to support a half-baked platform, or pay for the privilege of beta testing it. When Windows Phone 7.5 "Mango" devices hit the street, Windows Phone 7 will finally be what it should have been before Microsoft launched it in the first place.
shounds fair in my opinion
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Wow, it looks like I'll restart reading PCWorld after years. That's pretty much the most accurate 2 line review I've seen so far.
Best part is that it's also valid for the dev publishing process

Edit: nm, he's reviewing mango. it's all good

Has Microsoft abandoned hope for RT?

With the rumor of dismal sales for the RT, I'm wondering whether Microsoft considers RT to be a dead product. I heard that one manufacturer cancelled its RT product a while back because of it.
If it's true, I wonder how much the lockdown of the system affected sales. Did a lot of closed-source applications not get made for RT because desktop applications weren't allowed? Or would they never have been ported anyway?

I highly doubt that they have given up on something so early. I happen to own the Surface RT, and find it to be so much better than comparable Android and Ipad tablets. The only things lacking in the MS store, Photoshop Touch, a true Torrent client, and Cisco VPN support, and 3d gaming. I use RDP exclusively, and find it to be the best thin client available. If MS is smart, they will outfit Surface RT2 with the Wacom digitizer. Id pay an extra 100$ for it. Microsoft will be selling 10's of millions of windows 8 devices, which means more users on the modern UI - which in turn means more incentive for developers to make applications for Windows 8, and to compile for RT. I think a year from now, RT will basically have established itself as a viable tablet operating system - if the rumors are correct and the Windows phone 8 compatibility issues are ironed out, I see an ecosystem that is second to none.
THat being said - if apple starts making touchscreen convertible macbooks that boot ios applications, MS will be in big trouble, If Apple sticks to its guns, and doesn't make macbooks, and imacs touch friendly, they will continue to see their stock drop, and MS's market share in Tablets, will inch up.

The device that your thinking of is the ativ smart tab from Samsung. It never got sold in the US and is being discontinued in Germany. I live in the UK so have had a chance to handle a store model, its actually a horrid device. It feels cheap and seemed laggier than the RT, camera had a 3 second delay on taking images and it was more expensive than the surface RT while the only feature it had which the surface didn't was a higher resolution on its camera. The surface is just far better built and looks like its worth more money than the Samsung. Samsung cited lack of consumer interest in RT for the reason to not sell it.
Toshiba were also going to release a Windows RT tablet with a Texas instruments OMAP CPU however Toshiba pulled out and TI decided to discontinue the application profile OMAP processors and focus on microcontrollers instead. HP were going to make a device using a Qualcomm CPU (as used in samsungs device) but felt that there would be no demand for RT so pulled out, dell took up their position to release an RT device instead. Acer also developed a device but it has had its launch delayed until Q2 2013, assuming they have not discontinued it entirely.
Microsoft certainly have not scrapped RT already though. The new Microsoft blue update is meant to be coming to WP8, Windows 8 and Windows RT. If they didn't believe in RT then it wouldn't be getting blue.

I wonder how things would be different if Microsoft allowed desktop applications on RT directly rather than forced the Metro crap on everyone. Would we see desktop applications on RT from big developers, or would we just see the same situation, with porting to RT not seen as worthwhile?
Some people seem to think that the problem with the RT is that it has the desktop mode at all. I don't see it that way, though. What would be so wrong with an ARM port of Windows 8?

Oh Yes They Can!
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Microsoft certainly have not scrapped RT already though. The new Microsoft blue update is meant to be coming to WP8, Windows 8 and Windows RT. If they didn't believe in RT then it wouldn't be getting blue.
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From an article by Preston Gralla in Computerworld "My guess is that eventually Microsoft will kill RT. Sales are dismal and don't appear to be getting better. There's no clear value in tablets that are as expensive as full-blown Windows tablets, but don't offer all of Windows features, such as the ability to run desktop applications. Having to develop, market, and support RT as well as Windows takes time and energy away from Microsoft's focus on Windows. Microsoft should follow IDC's recommendations and kill RT".
I have had several Surface RT Tablets - they remain gorgeous pieces of hardware with great battery life and screen BUT the Win RT experience was absolutely abominable, from buggy software to just plain lack of decent apps in the store, e.g., the email app.
And lest we forget, Microsoft killed Kin within three months of introing it so they can easily kill RT as well.

"There's no clear value in tablets that are as expensive as full-blown Windows tablets, but don't offer all of Windows features, such as the ability to run desktop applications. Having to develop, market, and support RT..."
It's true that we all know that Apple has cheap Ipad and that the application from the App Store are working in iMac... that comment from Preston Gralla is ridiculous...

RT
Hello, I have owned the SurfaceRT from week 3 and I find it a great device. I use to read email some games and surfing net. The last update that enables most flash sites works great. I still you my laptop for some apps but so far I have been happy with it. Much better than ipad or droid tablets I think as I have both. Just my thoughts.

MS can't abandon RT. ARM is the dominant architecture in the mobile space, and if MS wants to compete, its OS has to run on ARM. Even if Intel Atom can now reach power-efficiency parity, I really doubt we'll see $200 Intel tablets any time soon. MS needs to drop prices to compete, and only ARM provides that option.
That said, the 2012 RT devices--the few that were released--are already hitting the bargain bin. Surface RT is the last hold-out. The Teg3 SoC they're based on has been long obsolete.
RT as presently stands has no value proposition. On one side, it's usurped by Intel Atom (Clover Trail and Bay Trail by year-end); on the other, by cheaper and more functional Android tablets. Per rumors, the plan for this year is to go smaller and cheaper, with Blue. We'll see if they can compete with $200 7" and $300 10" Android tabs. Those are MS' main competitors, not iPads.
RT's fate is tied to the Metro ecosystem; if Metro does well, so will RT. Metro isn't doing well. RT is too weak to bootstrap Metro, so it falls to Win8 to get Metro viable. But Win8 isn't doing well, either. So the domino effect is: Windows doing well -> Metro ecosystem becomes viable -> RT doing well.
From recent rumors, we should see fixes and incremental improvements with Blue. Win Blue sales should likewise incrementally improve from last year's launch debacle, but I don't see breakout sales coming this year. Hence, per above factors, I don't see RT being a player this year, either.

Even if Microsoft didn't abandon their hope for RT, it seems that the rest of the world has, including most manufacturers, financial analysts, prospective buyers and etc.
I love my RT. I don't care that it runs on ARM and is not compatible with regular x86 / 64 apps. The problem is that they don't allow non-Metro apps to be developed for the RT. The sooner they get rid of this stupid restriction, the sooner RT can be revived. Hell, I'll even write my own apps, just not in Metro. It's annoyingly slow even on my desktop running on a quad core CPU and a SSD.
Microsoft can't say they didn't see this coming if the RT does fail. They dug their own grave. Of course, I'd hate to see it fail because I'm typing on one right now.
If we're supposed to do anything on the cloud, why doesn't the RT have 3g? I can't even connect to our VPN at work. This is a beautiful piece of hardware (minus the embarrassingly low quality keyboard cover), unfortunately it's crippled by Microsoft's poor decision of locking this thing down. I'm sure they have their reasons to justify this, but the fact is that average consumers don't care and they just want things to work.

I think metro is dead.it really sucks.and the metro only device(windows rt) is also dead.

When Will RT Price Reductions Begin?
It's obvious that despite a lot of good points regarding Surface RT tabs they're not selling well (if at all now). One of the reasons given is price so does anyone believe that MS will offer reduced prices in the near future in an attempt to open the market or will they just abandon?

I think the device hasn't even been out for 6 months yet and you guys are already shouting like MS's buried it. MS has already announced plans for the infrastructure(Blue), and they would have been fools to think that it would have taken off this rapidly.

Microsoft have been fools before, although often not quite so badly as people realize. It's arguable that Microsoft was foolish to put so much emphasis on Metro in general despite the half-assed (maybe 3/4-assed) way it's implemented in Win8 / RT

I really hate that I have to say it, but after anxiously waiting for my Surface RT, and dreaming of an Android-Free life. It only took a month to change my mind and abandon the RT.
And Microsoft did it to themselves...after spending a LOT of time in their help forums, it become clear to me that that a lot of people felt as I do. The real issue for me wasn't ARM or Store apps only..I fully expected that. I had no problem with a scaled down version of Office and I REALLY love the Metro interface.
However, it is the roadblocks, missing basic functions in apps, and other missteps that MS took. This is no where the complete list.
1. No support for POP3 email accounts..people don't always have choices
2. Can't send or reply emails for your Outlook.com aliases
3. Limited support for Outlook categories and other contact list info in the People app
4. No folder organization for IE favorites or import function. Why...when you have a full IE when started from Desktop mode. Why severely limit your functions just in Metro?
5. No music playlist or file sync/download between PC WMP and device. Not paying more for Xbox, don't and can't use streaming often. home group solution only works when home..this is a mobile device. I think they forgot.
6. Doesn't matter anyway, built in music players can't work with WMP playlists anyway.???
7. No direct USB connector or option for file transfers, back ups, etc. Almost every mobile device and platform has this in some form..I expect it.
8. Apps...I know it's early, but the Metro design guidelines are so easy, who know so many apps could be so ugly. I love Metro, these are so bad. Plus, apps from the big guns, like Ever note, aren't functioning well.
9. Still no tasks from Outlook. Not necessarily an RT issue, but after all this time, still can't sync my Outlook tasks and the web apps MS depends on for any sync (live mail, calendar, etc) are too simple and missing functionality. I certainly did not expect, nor should I, a full Outlook on the RT, but what we got in its place is way too basic to be usable.
10. The nightmare that is the Desktop. Everything is too small, very frustrating to work with. Two different interfaces.. It is confusing and makes no sense. Why didn't they just develop everything into Metro? 11. Finally to add insult to injury, the support website you are linked to from the HELP link in every settings menu is the wrong one. That's the full Windows 8 site, not the RT site as I and the forum moderator discovered last week.
Even in the name, MS calls it a PC, and it's got so much legacy design and function from the PC version, but it isn't a PC. its a mobile device that wasn't built with mobility in mind. Some of these are just annoying, some are problematic and most make you wonder if anyone knows what they're doing, as they make no logical sense
There is a lot to love. It wasn't all bad, just the walls I kept hitting piled up and left me for dead. With all it's headaches and nightmares, I can still do much more, much easier and more reliably with an iPhone or Android.
It's time to stop managing our tech, and expect that our tech will help manage our lives.
Thanks
Sent from my GT-P3113 using Tapatalk 2

You have nicely captured many of the problems - the real issue here is whether MS is willing to fix RT enough to make it useful. I would gladly repurchase a Surface RT tablet if they do but I have a feeling they won't as long as the current management is there - in the decade since Ballmer has taken the reins MS has become a second-rate player and management has become increasingly out of touch with reality.

Thank you
I haven't followed the leadership enough to agree or disagree with the Balmer assessment. You may be correct.
But I wonder if the problem isn't deeper and ingrained in the corporate culture. People in leadership roles that can't or don't understand this new computing era. Teams stuck in the ruts of legacy. Innovation seen as too big a risk.
I also see MS, and many of the tech companies still seperating us into two defined groups and making old assumptions regarding what we need and want. Big company/Enterprise users and casual, home users. Today, I think the majority of people sit somewhere in between. I.e. Needing the advanced functions of Outlook, but not working on an Exchange server, or can't. Wanting to manage large media libraries across platforms, devices, and with choices such as to download or cloud store and stream.
Point is, the computing landscape has expanded tremendously and user needs have increased but also diversified. We need a lot more boxes than the old two.
Sadly, since I really wanted to love it, in comparing the RT with its counterparts, Android tablets and iPads, the Surface RT turned out to be an expensive toy. (That hurt). Picked up a Samsung Galaxy Tab, and had full functionality, far beyond the Surface in hours. You name it, I had it and it worked flawlessly. Truly a night and day experience.
Still hate Android though. Evil Google......Evil.
Sent from my GT-P3113 using Tapatalk 2

Interestingly enough, I too turned back to a Samsung Galaxy Tab 2 (I read a lot as well as listen to audio books). I too dislike android but I need my Gmail, calendar, etc and most of all, alarms that work, i.e., can turn themselves on even when the tablet sleeps. That's my pet peeve with any form of mobile windows going back to WinCE.
In any case, I'd chuck the Samsung for a Surface RT if the software worked - IMHO the Surface RT is the best tablet yet!

Latest rumorz sez that updates (not Blue) to all core apps are due some time in March. These are for both Win8 and RT.
I think folks are confusing RT v1.0 for RT the platform. One thing MS is known for is persisting with money-losing projects, and RT is a long-term bet. RT will stick around, even if v1.0 is a bit wanting.
What I'm interested in is what the pitch will be for this next rev. The "hybrid w/ bundled Office" spiel didn't work out.
PROGNOSTICATOR TIME! For Win8, the easy bet is that MS will double-down on same strategy as last year: bundling freebie Office w/ 10" & smaller tabs, and relying on faster hardware (Haswell, Bay Trail), lower prices (lower licensing, cheaper touch screens), and bug-fix/improvements to Win8 (Blue) to boost sales.
For RT, reportedly MS'll go small/cheap. That would mean naked tabs w/o keyboard since that adds to the cost, and smaller tabs can't have integrated KB anyway. Whatever happens, the heavy lifting will be all on MS, as vendor buy-in for RT is minimal. I see MS soft-selling RT for this next rev, since Metro isn't yet rolling. My guess is that we'll see a refreshed 10" along with a new 7" model, both with nominal market spend.
Speaking of Surface toys, I'd expect an Atom (Bay Trail) model to bridge the huge gap between the iCore and the RT, making it 4 models in all. If there's any adult left in MS management, the keyboard widget will be included in base pricing, and the whole line should drop by $100 for all models.
These may work, depending on what the competition is doing. If Apple goes ahead with the iWatch/iTV, or if Goog Glass hits the street, then frankly it doesn't matter what MS is doing with Windows. All the buzz will go to the new toys. That's the real problem for MS, it's forever fighting last year's wars.
BTW, looks like Blue leaks have started. You can catch up on the tidbits from the usual haunts. Incremental improvements as expected. No boot-to-desktop apparent. As with past Win releases, we should see RTM in July/Aug, and RC releases will be before that, so we'll know before long what cards MS will play for this year.

if there was an intel atom powered surface out already at about the same price as the RT (I might be willing to spare an extra £50 or so) then I would be all over that. Even better if it still had the wacom digitiser of the pro.
I do want to see a 7" windows device.

Hopefully they will also broaden their distribution - letting the morons at Best Buy introduce a new product is the kiss of death and MS's own stores are too few and far between.