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It's a good start I suppose. Here are some questions:
Does this change how users can report posts/users? Or is it still the troublesome bulky way of having to PM your forum mods and hope for the best? Sometimes days between reports and action?
Will we see more moderator involvement in the community, or will it continue to be a ghostland unless someone flashes the bat-signal for help? (I can only speak of EVO 4G forums).
In short: What should the average joe user who is, say, frustrated with [Q] in development for example, see in the upcoming days/weeks?
Hopefully this can stay on-topic
github said:
It's a good start I suppose. Here are some questions:
Does this change how users can report posts/users? Or is it still the troublesome bulky way of having to PM your forum mods and hope for the best? Sometimes days between reports and action?
Will we see more moderator involvement in the community, or will it continue to be a ghostland unless someone flashes the bat-signal for help? (I can only speak of EVO 4G forums).
In short: What should the average joe user who is, say, frustrated with [Q] in development for example, see in the upcoming days/weeks?
Hopefully this can stay on-topic
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It isn't necessarily a matter of days or weeks of when the new report system/mod involvement will roll out. The report system is being reworked to accommodate the mods and users alike. The old way was only beneficial to the users and create hassle for the mod team. This made it more difficult to deal with reports instead of simpler. The report system was made that way in the first place because, at the time, it was the right way to do it. As the user base exploded here, it became apparent that this was no longer viable.
The old report system dumped all reports into a massive pile and made it difficult to get to the important ones that needed immediate attention. This is why you now need to PM mods to address moving threads. That isn't an important issue as much as flaming, kanging, or warez is.
There is a new system in the works to address the issues that the old system raised as well as make it simpler for users to report posts. You'll just need to be patient while the kinks are worked out. Don't worry, good things come to those who wait.
As far as mod involvement, this is where the new [revised] site direction comes in. It's no longer an act of congress to ban or discipline someone. If a user does something retarded, he will be punished. It's that simple. However, not every mod can be in every place at once. That's the whole reason we have a report function. Especially if you see a forum needs deep cleaning, you should PM the forum mod first. If that doesn't work, PM any senior mod with your problem. There is also a Requests from the users to the mods and admins sticky thread here that you can utilize.
All in all, there are good things on the way. We just need to be patient while the kinks are worked out.
Even if I understand and respect the goal to provide better methods and tools for the admins and mods of this forums, I'd like to ask the question:
"Was it necessary to use the Iron Fist picture and publish it with this title?"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Fist
In colloquial English, an "Iron Fist" refers to the authority exerted by a powerful, unforgiving governing figure, extended variously to public or private life, used to describe a person who operates under strictly authoritarian principles. Ex. "Josef Stalin ruled the USSR with an iron fist" ...
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ThaiDai said:
Even if I understand and respect the goal to provide better methods and tools for the admins and mods of this forums, I'd like to ask the question:
"Was it necessary to use the Iron Fist picture and publish it with this title?"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Fist
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They could have called it the "Turd Ferguson Project" for all I care. The name isn't important. However, this one being the Iron Fist that is set to unleash blows to those who think it's ok to use this site as their personal dumping ground seems fair to me.
github said:
Will we see more moderator involvement in the community, or will it continue to be a ghostland unless someone flashes the bat-signal for help? (I can only speak of EVO 4G forums).
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Having been a member of the X10 and now Arc forums since joining I welcome "Iron fist", and still believe there should be a week limit when you first join before you're allowed to post anything because that way it would encourage people to search more, along with having to actually read threads where the answer being looked for has been answered a thousand times already. In regards to githubs point, I'd like to see more of that too in the Arc section.
ALL moderators imo should 1. Actually own the phone of the forum they are moderating and 2. Be able to dedicate a certain amount of time each day to the forum, which might help with keeping the forums clean because they have an interest and a duty to keep on top of things.
cajunflavoredbob said:
They could have called it the "Turd Ferguson Project" for all I care. The name isn't important. However, this one being the Iron Fist that is set to unleash blows to those who think it's ok to use this site as their personal dumping ground seems fair to me.
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Spot on.
XperienceD said:
ALL moderators imo should 1. Actually own the phone of the forum they are moderating and 2. Be able to dedicate a certain amount of time each day to the forum, which might help with keeping the forums clean because they have an interest and a duty to keep on top of things.
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Spot on. Our goal has been to assign mods to device forums that apply to them. When possible, we attempt to assign a few mods to each device forums such that time zone overlap occurs.
Some of the challenges we often encounter are:
Infrequent mod attendance; this is a volunteer (aka unpaid) role after all
Mods who switch to a new device at some point before a replacement mod is assigned - i.e. they now manage several forums
Obtaining quality mod candidates
Mods who decide to retire
ThaiDai said:
Even if I understand and respect the goal to provide better methods and tools for the admins and mods of this forums, I'd like to ask the question:
"Was it necessary to use the Iron Fist picture and publish it with this title?"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Fist
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This was covered in the message:
Svetius said:
The name "Iron Fist" is a bit of an inside joke among the moderators--we are very clearly not an unyielding Gestapo.
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And, frankly, I'm glad they didn't call it the 'Turd Ferguson Project.'
mrkite38 said:
And, frankly, I'm glad they didn't call it the 'Turd Ferguson Project.'
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The "Allan Parson Project" seems a more befitting name
In reference to reporting any problem post/member, what I've been doing lately is keeping one of my Chrome tabs with the Forum leader List open.
If I encounter a problem post/flame, I create my pm with the links to the post/thread, my reason for reporting it and if the section does not have a mod to send it to, or if i think it needs immediate attention, I then refresh that Forum Leader list to see who is on at the moment and send out the pm to the mod. 9 out of 10, they get it within moments and take care of it, unless they log off by the time the pm is sent out. (or if they deem it not necessary to report).
There are times that even if a section has a mod assigned to it, some issues need to be taken care of immediately before it escalates into a much bigger problem and that is why I'm do the method above until the new reporting system takes effect.
TS out
twospirits said:
In reference to reporting any problem post/member, what I've been doing lately is keeping one of my Chrome tabs with the Forum leader List open.
If I encounter a problem post/flame, I create my pm with the links to the post/thread, my reason for reporting it and if the section does not have a mod to send it to, or if i think it needs immediate attention, I then refresh that Forum Leader list to see who is on at the moment and send out the pm to the mod. 9 out of 10, they get it within moments and take care of it, unless they log off by the time the pm is sent out. (or if they deem it not necessary to report).
There are times that even if a section has a mod assigned to it, some issues need to be taken care of immediately before it escalates into a much bigger problem and that is why I'm do the method above until the new reporting system takes effect.
TS out
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Very good point. I try to only involve my forum mods, but I like your idea too. Depending on the issue sometimes I'll PM a few mods that I have known in the past to be pretty quick to take action and/or helpful overall.
I won't name any names, but one of them posted in here *cough* Thanks!
Hopefully Iron Fist is more like Bruce Lee's Fist of Fury!
Hopefully with less people making useless threads etc, the older members might also chill out a little.
Audionut11 said:
Hopefully with less people making useless threads etc, the older members might also chill out a little.
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Unfortunately there are some "older" members that are causing just as much if not more trouble than their newer counterparts.
So 4 mods posted after my post here...
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=276306&page=239
And I guess they didn't feel it was enough for "iron fist"?
Zeus... God of Awesome!
mattykinsx said:
Unfortunately there are some "older" members that are causing just as much if not more trouble than their newer counterparts.
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I second that.
XperienceD said:
Having been a member of the X10 and now Arc forums since joining I welcome "Iron fist", and still believe there should be a week limit when you first join before you're allowed to post anything because that way it would encourage people to search more, along with having to actually read threads where the answer being looked for has been answered a thousand times already. In regards to githubs point, I'd like to see more of that too in the Arc section.
ALL moderators imo should 1. Actually own the phone of the forum they are moderating and 2. Be able to dedicate a certain amount of time each day to the forum, which might help with keeping the forums clean because they have an interest and a duty to keep on top of things.
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Id like to respond to this as I'm currently moderating the Arc section.
I do not own the device but to be honest I spend far more time in the forumsi moderate than in the forums for devices I own.
Now, atm you may be thinking, "aye right, the place is a s×××hole"
You may be right as I haven't been around much in the past few days.
However under "normal" real life circumstances. All my forums are swept at least once a day. If I should miss anything then please do not hesitate to PM me.....
I make every effort to close/delete/m ove misplaced or duplicate threads but obv. some do get missed, simply because I cannot read every thread. Again, in such a situation or if you just want to discuss the way the section is moderated then please do PM me and let me know.....
I hope that addresses some of your concerns.
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face.....
Hello, i wonder if you can grant with moderation priviledges to Recognized devs???
I come from LG Optimus One forum, and as im reading here theres not even a moderator for our forum...
(I wont apply to become a moderator since i dont have time and i've never been a moderator before, so, next...)
Anyway, devs threads are flooded with spam and users askin the same questions again and again and spamming again and again... Old moderator "Zecanilis" performance wasnt good as well (forum was the same with/ without him)...
So i wanted to know if you can grant recognized devs from my forum (like francisco.franco, ciaox, mik_os, andy...) the power to moderate at least his threads...
thx in advance
PS: crap posts are increasing!! --> http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1231440
There was recently a recruitment drive for new mods and if that forum currently does not have an fsm assigned then I'm sure one will be shortly.
Check the link in my sig for a comprehensive list of forum mods to see whether one is assigned to your devices forum.
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face......
And spam strikes back..
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=16949645&postcount=5921
They keep spamming spamming all day, and theres no one there to put order ,, whats the problem on giving some power to recognized devs??
A hero???
Hello??? someone reads this??? is conantroutman the only one there?? hello????
In the meantime:
Striking news: SPAM BEAST TOOK OUR FORUM AND THREATENS WITH EATING IT!!!... Wheres is the hero when we need one (or a bunch [i.e Recognized Devs])
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1233991
Please, we need an active moderator . It is becoming unbearable amount of post about questions that were answered many times, other fights and other spam among other things is in the section of the P500
There is a discussion about that between recognized devs and xda staff... However, conclusion is that RDs can't have these permissions because the abuse is possible - e.g. devs removing bad comments and leave only the glorifying comments and make his work a masterpiece. I can't speak in name of xda staff but I hope it'll be solved somehow, but the problem is that it's hard to find acceptable solution for everyone.
Blagus said:
conclusion is that RDs can't have these permissions because the abuse is possible - e.g. devs removing bad comments and leave only the glorifying comments and make his work a masterpiece.
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Well, its that or spamming... and certainly not all RD's have this glorifying attitude...
Also if they r granted w/ powers just to manage their threads that would not be an issue since general forum exist, reports functions exist, and it would be easy to track a bad developer and bring his work down...
Also the fact that spam users are in a much bigger proportion than RD's...
IMHO...
Garuxa said:
Please, we need an active moderator . It is becoming unbearable amount of post about questions that were answered many times, other fights and other spam among other things is in the section of the P500
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I agree. The lack of an active moderator is the real problem. Giving the RD this responsibility would cause more harm than good.
I found out in the Mods list that we can PM the Senior Mods for reporting for problems, as there is no one assigned. Let´s do so then.
kbzona said:
Well, its that or spamming... and certainly not all RD's have this glorifying attitude...
Also if they r granted w/ powers just to manage their threads that would not be an issue since general forum exist, reports functions exist, and it would be easy to track a bad developer and bring his work down...
Also the fact that spam users are in a much bigger proportion than RD's...
IMHO...
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It has always been the case that moderators who are also developers are not allowed to moderate their own threads.
This is a clear cut conflict of interest.
Bottom line is that RD's will probably never be given such priviledges as that would contradict long standing forum rules.
In other news.....
I'm going to PM MikeChannon (forum admin extraordinaire) and volunteer to help you guys out.
Watch this space.
Thank you Conan, yes, we are hoping to fill Moderator vacancies in a week, maybe two. The Committee that sifts through Moderator Applicants has had an unprecedented number to look through in the last round. Normally we get maybe 20 applicants, but in the last round we got 270 and it's not surprising it's taking longer to process.
Each applicant's posting history, helpfulness and other more general abilities have to be examined carefully and although we know some forums are having to be watched by Senior Mods at present, we think this is better than rushing in Mods who have not been checked thoroughly.
In addition some improvements to help Users report problems more easily will be rolled out soon, so please don't feel we aren't interested or don't care. In the meantime, you can still use the existing reporting system and it will still be seen by Senior Mods even if no Forum Mod is allocated.
In a few places that I mod, I know that it is actually easier to move a thread and leave a place holder if I think that a thread is in the wrong forum than it does to type an explanation and then lock a thread.
But I am not moving it simply because it is easier. It is the better thing to do. But then again, I don't get the satisfaction of locking the thread then beating my chest when I get home to my woman proclaiming..."Me HE man. Close thread today. Me want sex NOW"!!!!
I posted a thread, http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1904115 and it was locked. What is so hard about moving it and leaving a place holder referring to the new location if you think it is in the wrong forum? It clearly applies to the general forum as it applies to all phones with the recent lawsuits that have been flying around. Not only just apple lawsuits, but many others involving cell phone manufacturers including Apple and six other mfgs getting sued by another company.
Sure there may be another forum that it may fit into. But that can be said about many posts here. Just move it if it is questionable.
Hell, I have even had a post where the mods didn't even know where it went. One mod moved it to another forum, and the FSM in that forum said it was in the wrong forum and locked it. LOL A mod moved it to where he thought it went and then another mod thought it was in the wrong place!!
All I am asking is move the darn thing instead of locking it if it is questionable. It is not like I posted the thread in Near Field Communications Forum or the Job Board. Sheez... Use a little common sense. If it is clearly in the WRONG place, then by all means close it. But if it is a subjective call, use a little common sense.
Takes 5 seconds to do either one.
Just a few clicks to move. But you have to type words to close and provide an explanation. Besides it was a rhetorical thread title I posted. Everybody knows the answer. I was making a point for mods to use some common sense.
Sent from my Kindle Fire running CM10 Jelly Bean
It's up to the individual mod what they'd like to do with it.
A lot of the time, a mod will close the thread rather than move it because people should read the rules and stickies before posting and therefore know that it's in the wrong section.
Whereas, sometimes it will be moved rather than locked because either it's easier for them, or they just don't want to lock it, for whatever reason.
In regards to the mod moving it to OT and it then getting locked whilst in OT, it's not very often that happens anyway.
If a mod of a certain forum sees a thread which shouldn't be there, they probably haven't got enough time to be thinking whether or not it would get locked in OT. So the best thing to do is just to move it there and leave it down to the off-topic mods to do what they wish with it.
''Evil corrupts the mind of the weak but fails to feed off the mind of the strong''
KidCarter93 said:
It's up to the individual mod what they'd like to do with it.
A lot of the time, a mod will close the thread rather than move it because people should read the rules and stickies before posting and therefore know that it's in the wrong section.
Whereas, sometimes it will be moved rather than locked because either it's easier for them, or they just don't want to lock it, for whatever reason.
In regards to the mod moving it to OT and it then getting locked whilst in OT, it's not very often that happens anyway.
If a mod of a certain forum sees a thread which shouldn't be there, they probably haven't got enough time to be thinking whether or not it would get locked in OT. So the best thing to do is just to move it there and leave it down to the off-topic mods to do what they wish with it.
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Point taken Kid. I can see locking the thread if I went into the Kindle Fire forum and was talking about the headphone output on my RAZR MAXX. Lock the thread for me being a dumbass and posting in the wrong section.
But it was a thread about patents and prior art, which has had SPECIFICALLY had a huge impact on the people/developers here at this site as of late.
"Anything that involves all of the phones and doesn't fit in any of the other fora." hmmmm. It could "fit" into a couple of "fora". If it is questionable then move it. Use some common sense. That is all I ask.
At least I can say one thing for the mod that locked it. He left an explanation. That is an vast improvement from the way things have been in the past.
As for the really old topic that I referred to getting moved then locked..... It wasn't moved to OT. One mod thought it belonged in another forum because I used a question mark somewhere in the post. The mod that is "Guardian of the Question Mark" moved it to Q&A because there was an interrogative in the post. Then a mod in Q&A thought it was in the wrong forum and locked it IIRC. LOL
85gallon said:
Point taken Kid. I can see locking the thread if I went into the Kindle Fire forum and was talking about the headphone output on my RAZR MAXX. Lock the thread for me being a dumbass and posting in the wrong section.
But it was a thread about patents and prior art, which has had SPECIFICALLY had a huge impact on the people/developers here at this site as of late.
"Anything that involves all of the phones and doesn't fit in any of the other fora." hmmmm. It could "fit" into a couple of "fora". If it is questionable then move it. Use some common sense. That is all I ask.
At least I can say one thing for the mod that locked it. He left an explanation. That is an vast improvement from the way things have been in the past.
As for the really old topic that I referred to getting moved then locked..... It wasn't moved to OT. One mod thought it belonged in another forum because I used a question mark somewhere in the post. The mod that is "Guardian of the Question Mark" moved it to Q&A because there was an interrogative in the post. Then a mod in Q&A thought it was in the wrong forum and locked it IIRC. LOL
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But there's already threads that exist which are about the patent war between Apple & Samsung and even if a thread gets created which speaks of patents regarding other companies aswell, it's still similar in its content, so naturally it could be placed in an existing thread.
But your threads been reopened now anyway, I believe.
And if your think a mod could deal with a particular thread differently, then the best option would be to PM them and speak to them about it.
''Evil corrupts the mind of the weak but fails to feed off the mind of the strong''
KidCarter93 said:
But there's already threads that exist which are about the patent war between Apple & Samsung and even if a thread gets created which speaks of patents regarding other companies aswell, it's still similar in its content, so naturally it could be placed in an existing thread.
But your threads been reopened now anyway, I believe.
And if your think a mod could deal with a particular thread differently, then the best option would be to PM them and speak to them about it.
''Evil corrupts the mind of the weak but fails to feed off the mind of the strong''
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I understand your point about PM'ing a mod. To a point.
I don't fault the mod. I fault the system here.
If I feel something is going on too much here that I disagree with by several mods, I like to make a post in here so users can read it and also put in their feedback. That is why I did so. It is not attributable to a single mod, but the way things are done a lot as a policy. (Hence the argument that my post could really apply to a few forums) In that case err in the case of caution. I did the same a while back when I thought it was wrong to simply close threads without any explanation. (and that was rampant for a while) It is right to close if it is posted obviously in the wrong forum, and the rules were not read. But explain why it was closed so other readers can head the warning to make sure they post in the correct forum. I am not saying I corrected that policy, but I would like to thing I was instrumental.
If I report the thread, I am not sure how many mods read it before it is acted upon. If the problem involves a policy, it may just be the mod on duty that sees the report and takes action either way. No other mods see the complaint to take it into consideration and think, "maybe he has a point".
If I PM the mod directly, I will only do that if I think that particular mod was wrong in his actions. Like it was an action the HE took that other mods have not taken in similar situations. That way, I KNOW that only that mod I disagree with reads it and I can air my disagreement with them personally.
I have only found that necessary a few times and I accept the answer. I don't always agree with the answer. But if I don't, I may escalate to report post in hopes that other mods may see it and voice their opinions in the mod forums. (One case comes to mind on removing a picture in the OT images thread. God it was a funny pic. It may have been offensive to a select few, but funnier than hell. The thread was taking a turn towards memes on the Grand Theft Auto game. I posted a pic of an advertisement for GTA Somolia. It had a Somli with a gun in a wheel barrow with another Somali pushing the wheel barrow through battle ridden streets. LOL)
The mod chose to remove it and I accepted his answer. (Didn't like it.) GRIN. But I accepted it.
But in this case, the closing of a thread that "might" fit better in another forum happens a lot here by several mods. Like it is a systemic policy. If it is clearly in the wrong forum, close it and explain why so others will learn. But it was a thread that could fit in more than one forum. Just move it with an explanation if that is the case.
And after I made this post, I did report the thread to see if other mods might review when no other mods commented. The luck of the draw was that bigjoe was on duty and got the report. He took into consideration my thoughts and re-opened it. I truly wouldn't have minded if he moved it to OT. And he provided an explanation in the thread why he did what he did when he closed it. My disagreement was just simply closing it because he thought it "might" better fit somewhere else.
Kudos to bigjoe. 1. He did provide an explanation when he closed it. and 2. he listened to me and considered my argument. A few months ago that would have never happened here. There was a short period here when threads were simply closed with no explanation. Thankfully that period seems to be over.
Again kudos to bigjoe and to XDA for relaxing the policy of simply slamming down the hammer and not allowing discussion.
And posting it in another patent thread would have been useless and would be buried. They are usually specific flame wars posted by fanboys from both sides. That is why I chose start a new thread in the General Forum. That is where I fell it would reach the biggest target audience.
Again to kudos to bigjoe for having an open mind. the topic of the new site is going to make a big difference (hopefully) and nip the frivolous IP phone patents in the bud for the betterment of the cell phone/tablet community which is where many of the BIG patents wars have been as of late. And those affect US specifically even though the site will help in other areas as well.
Generally speaking we will endeavour to move all threads to the correct location, unless of course a similar thread already exists there. We also try to leave and explanation upon closing a thread.
Obviously this doesn't happen every time but feel free to PM a mod if you would like an explanation. We don't bite.... That costs extra.
What are you doing outside of OT anyway?
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face.....
conantroutman said:
What are you doing outside of OT anyway?
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face.....
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Somebody left the door open and I escaped!! LOL I guess I need to get back to the basement.
In the time that I've been here, and had several phones while here, I've noticed that moderators can sometimes use the same rules very differently. With some of my older phones (and so in those forums) I noticed that if someone 'tried to act like a moderator' they could be lobbied with an infraction pretty easily. With my current phone (and in that thread) that's not an issue - people frequently make directions based on the rules. Why is that? How can a rule be invented or ignored like that? That's two completely different reactions to the same situation.
Another issue that I've noticed is the level of tolerance in different forums for attacks on other people. In some forums, people would be shooting each other with attacking comments and dripping sarcasm all day, in the next, one slap and it's an infraction.
Some moderators I've found very easy to talk to and their approach is simple and clear. Others, can't seem to communicate without fury. You cannont reason with an angry person and I'm surprised that that can come from a moderator. Like many others I'm sure, I use many forums and this is the only one where I've seen moderators be allowed act this way.
I find that confusing and I'm also convinced that 'convenience' rules are created sometimes, and other times rules are flouted. Like a lot of people, I just want to come to talk about my phone, mod it etc. but the above makes it an unhappy trip on here sometimes. If it becomes a place where these issues are occuring, it feels to me like an 'anything goes' territory.
One other thing, is that I'm convinced that a thanks meter (which we know is also used as an 'I like you or your comment' meter is currency. Do we each have to notch up 1,000 posts and 300 thanks to become equal?
Anyone noticed similar? Any other frustrations?
SharpnShiny said:
Anyone noticed similar? Any other frustrations?
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Having received an infraction and a ban in the past, the irony being that I received the second for discussing by P.M that the first was given incorrectly by a moderator who didn't seem to know what an "affiliate" link was, so I do have a few frustrations with how some things are dealt with around here :silly:, but no matter how good your intentions are, how good an idea is or how in the long run something might improve the site, nothings going to change around here, and expect this thread to be locked as criticism even if constructive of how things are done around here doesn't usually go down well with TPTB. :angel:
SharpnShiny said:
In the time that I've been here, and had several phones while here, I've noticed that moderators can sometimes use the same rules very differently. With some of my older phones (and so in those forums) I noticed that if someone 'tried to act like a moderator' they could be lobbied with an infraction pretty easily.
<SNIP>
Anyone noticed similar? Any other frustrations?
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There's a big difference between trying to act like a moderator and aiding the moderators in what they do by referring people to the relevant links etc.
If someone is pushing their weight around, being all high and mighty and trying to enforce the rules as if they're more important - that is trying to act like a moderator.
However, directing people to the right place or making someone aware of the rules, without acting like the Big I Am - this is aiding the moderators and helping xda out.
Another thing that needs to be taken into account is that mods are only human and different mods will find some things acceptable whereas some others won't.
So if there are posts that you think should be actioned, simply report it and it will get the relevant mods attention. If you don't agree with a mods decision then you can politely PM them and ask why they made the decision they did and if you're still not happy with it, get in touch with a senior mod about it.
Where did the idea about posts and thanks come from? I don't agree with that at all, to be honest with you.
XperienceD said:
Having received an infraction and a ban in the past, the irony being that I received the second for discussing by P.M that the first was given incorrectly by a moderator who didn't seem to know what an "affiliate" link was, so I do have a few frustrations with how some things are dealt with around here :silly:, but no matter how good your intentions are, how good an idea is or how in the long run something might improve the site, nothings going to change around here, and expect this thread to be locked as criticism even if constructive of how things are done around here doesn't usually go down well with TPTB. :angel:
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If you think that we're not allowed to discuss the way the site is, then I can assure you that's not the case at all.
The fact is, there's a time and a place for everything.
If you're not happy with how the site is run, or how a moderator/admin acts around the site then creating a thread to bring these issues to the forefront isn't the way to do it.
If you contact the relevant mods etc via PM and want to discuss something relevant I'm sure they'll be more than happy to speak to you about it and sort out any problems you may have.
Nothing is perfect. The moderators can't be. But the comittee chooses them as they do appear close to 'perfect'. If at all you think any unfair decision has been taken upon you or any other member, you can always contact the moderator liasion admins or any one of the admins.
Sent from my GT-S5360 using xda premium
If you have concerns about a specific moderator or forum then I'd be happy to hear them. As would any member of the moderator committee. Feel free to drop us a pm if you wish.
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face.....
I've posted a couple of threads on GENERAL news topics which were curiously moved to the section belonging to my current phone. I can't believe it. It's so biased it's unbelieveable. I calmly messaged the mod who moved it and got no response. I really have no respect for a system that has no respect for it's users. That will be the last news piece that I post, I'll add and contribute to mods and that's it.
Not all of us are 16 year olds still learning, some of us are adults that have education and experience and can tell the difference between the sections. The bias and lack of communication is poor reflection of the site.
conantroutman said:
If you have concerns about a specific moderator or forum then I'd be happy to hear them. As would any member of the moderator committee. Feel free to drop us a pm if you wish.
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face.....
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Thank you very much, I didn't see this until today. I'm afraid that on a few issues I have tried this and got no where. I can guarantee I communicate in these messages calmly, reasonable - and open to being wrong. I just can't believe it goes no where.
SharpnShiny said:
Thank you very much, I didn't see this until today. I'm afraid that on a few issues I have tried this and got no where. I can guarantee I communicate in these messages calmly, reasonable - and open to being wrong. I just can't believe it goes no where.
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I can only apologise for that, I'd hope that any enquiry made would be met with a response. I must say though that it may well be a simple mistake as we can often get quite a lot of messages to respond to and it's easy to one miss one, I'm certainly guilty of that myself (more than once)
As I said though, if you have specific concerns please feel free to get in touch with either myself or any mod committee member and we'll try to make sure the issue is resolved.
Moderators: I understand that this post is in the wrong forum, yet there doesn't seem to be a "XDA feedback" forum so I have no idea what the proper location is. I hope that a helpful moderator will move it to a proper location AND let me know where that location is.
XDA has changed quite a bit over the years. It used to be a "developer" forum. These days, not so much. In fact, and this is my problem, it almost feels anti-developer these days. If that's what XDA wants, great. If not, please take the time to read this message written by a developer.
I've been around XDA for a very long time. I've been a programmer for a much longer time. I think it's important to at least mention my professional qualifications, as this is (or was?) a DEVELOPERS forum, and I've been doing development for over 20 years. Going back only 10 years, I worked for Electronic Arts developing video games for both PC's and consoles. Unlike development here, game development has to be done right the FIRST time. There's no way to patch a game burned on to a cDROM for a console such as the original playstation, nor a way to fix a Nintendo64 cartrigde. (BTW, that was really a "rom" - not the firmware people call "roms" here on XDA.) I've also done quite a bit of development in various Windows CE platforms, including PocketPC (when I first started with XDA!) My current job has me doing (among other things) development on iOS, Android, and Windows Mobile. It's a very safe assumption that I'm extremely fluent with development on handheld devices.
Of course, as a hobby, I mostly work with Android these days. I've shared my work with people on XDA and rootzwiki, and when the changes could be applied to AOSP, I've shared them with CM and AOKP projects - as well as directly with Google via their gerrit system.
No, I don't have a "recognized developer" tag on XDA. I've never actually applied for it and currently have no interest in doing so. Part of my reason for that decision is that I feel XDA has given that tag out too freely. They've given it to people who don't actually do development, but just "kang" other people's work in order to collection donations. (I also don't accept donations, instead prefering people to send that money to real charities.) That's a different subject...
So, the purpose of this (already rambling) post is to try and give some feedback on the "current state" of XDA in general, of some of the moderators in particular, and to ask for a clear, consistent and easily understood set of guidelines.
I'm an engineer, and if the rules are fuzzy, it's impossible to clearly follow them.
So, here we go...
For any given phone model, there is a "general" subforum that is used for threads like "Post pictures of your phone" and "Where to buy this phone." Then there's a Q&A subforum that, I think, is where newbies are told to go to ask questions (and then other newbies respond with nasty replies.) There's a "development" subforum that, despite its name, is not to discuss development, but apparently only to post finished things. What those "things" are is a subject of debate, and I've heard many different things from different moderators. There might be an "original development" subforum which, I think, is used for development done from source (as opposed to modifying stock firmware?) Finally, a "themes and apps" subforum for theming existing work and misc applications.
There really is no place to discuss DEVELOPMENT for a device. Really, talking about the IO registers for a given device doesn't belong in the same place as "post pictures of your phone", and gets lost in the newbie questions in the Q&A subforum. Where does a developer discuss development for a specific platform? There's also no good place to share methods for doing development. For example, what's the best subforum for "HOWTO configure a N7100 kernel to work with stock firmware"? How about a thread that discusses how to modify the CSC files on a samsung firmware to enable features hidden by AT&T?
This all leads me back to the existing "development" subforum. At least for samsung devices, these generally end up being like an app-store for themed stock firmwares. (I refuse to call it a ROM when it's not "read-only.") There isn't any clear rule on what, exactly, is put in this subforum. One moderator posted "For something you CREATED." Well, not a single poster on XDA created touchwiz - they only modify it. Another moderator said "The only thing in Development will be true development. Roms and kernels." Well, tweaking touchwiz isn't really "true" development, is it?
Taking those two posts together, and combining with the current reality (at least in the samsung device forums), it appears that the "development" forum is used for modified stock firmware. However, at what level? I've seen people deodex a touchwiz stock firmware, change the "build.prop" and post it in development. Others take that same deodex'd firmware, modifying a couple of apk's, and post that there. Is this "development?" If so, what about if the person only posted the apk's that they modified without forcing the users to take the entire package? I've seen this frequenty in the development forum, but apparently this is a case where some moderators have different rules than others. From a DEVELOPER point of view, the latter is better as it gives people the chance to have the modifications they want and not the ones they don't want.
You see, the "rules" are vague.
There needs to be a clear and precise set of guidelines on what these subforums are for - and those guidelines posted in the general forum rules where everyone can read them. As well, I think it would help prevent the issue of each moderator having a different interpretation of what post belongs in what forum. Oh, and if someone actually does this, please include a note telling developers where they are allowed to discuss development.
That leads, of course, to the current XDA moderators. Honestly, there are too many and they apparently aren't given clear guidance.
I'm playing around with the AT&T Note2, and I think there are currently 5-7 active moderators each enforcing their own interpretation of the rules in that forum. As a user of the forum, I've learned to expect that each moderator has a different style and different view of the rules, but at least one of those moderators isn't even consistent in his own enforcement. If two threads are nearly identical, and one is closed for "meaningless content", why isn't the other one also closed? The best part was when I sent a PRIVATE message to that moderator pointing this out, the response I got was "Sir, your thoughts should be kept to yourself." As well, this moderator informed me that "the report system on XDA is not for making a statement and or to submit feedback." (Okay... that's a new rule.) I think it's probably significant that this particular moderator seems to have something personal against me. Not sure what or why. Honestly, at this point, I don't even care why.
So, here I am as a developer. I'm on a forum called "xda-developers" (And I've been here for over 6 years.) However, I feel at this point that this "developers" forum is no longer targeting developers. In fact, it appears to be chasing them away. I've had development discussion threads shut down by non-developer moderators. I've had my threads where I share my development work moved around (out of "development".) and been told by that moderator to keep my feedback to myself. (That's from a PRIVATE MESSAGE!!!!)
Why are forums like "rootzwiki" becoming so popular? Perhaps it's due to the lack of developer friendliness here on XDA.
Personally, I REALLY hate to see XDA going this way. I've been here a long time and while I have no hope of seeing it be the way it once was, it can still be a development forum. Why isn't it?
Yes, this message is being written in response to something that happened. However, that was only the "straw that broke the camels back" so to speak. This is something that's been building up for at least a year.
For now, I've pulled my contributions for the AT&T note2 down from XDA. At this point, I'm not even sure which location they should be posted in (and I have moderators telling me different things.) I'd pull down my other stuff from other devices, but most are out of date by now, so there's really no point.
As well, I have a specific moderator in this set of forums who seems to have an issue with me personally. Right now, I need to back away and cool off.
Gary - there IS an XDA general discussion forum that you apparently missed - http://forum.xda-developers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=263
As to the RD tag - if you recall my currently ongoing G+ saga, I did mention that the RD program had some serious issues at the end of 2011. That was why the ERD program was created, and also why the rules for becoming an RD were made stricter/clearer about a month ago. (With the addition of RC/RT tiers, it's easier to "raise the bar" for RD since there are now lower titles available to those who don't quite make the cut.)
I think some aspects of XDA's process might need to be better documented/clearer - for example, I wasn't even aware of the "Moderator Committee" account until today. I knew there WAS a Moderator Committee, but didn't know exactly who was on it, and that there was a "catchall" account for PMing them all simultaneously.
Unfortunately, I think the rules are indeed unclear in terms of, for example, single-APK modifications. In the I9100 forums, these seem to be split 50/50 between "Themes and Apps" and "Development" - The defining line for some of these is so vague that usually, the moderators let it go unless it's obvious. For example, if you just replaced graphics assets in something, it obviously belongs in "Themes and Apps". If you did smali hacks - it's borderline. In my opinion, if you just post a smali-hacked APK, it goes in T&A. If you actually documented the process for performing the modification so others could apply it to different devices/firmware images, then it probably is justified as "Development". Knowing your past work and ethics, I'm assuming your modifications were from the latter category, however I currently can't review them.
Damn, you're right - I did miss that forum. Well, between the PM I sent to "moderator committee" and its somewhat obvious location here, I'm sure it'll get moved soon (and I'm good with that.)
As for RD - I'll save that for another day.
Take care
Gary
I've moved this thread into the General 'General' section. Gary has some good points, I also think it's strange that development, real development, discussions have no real place other than General, where good work can easily get lost - however, if you have an issue with a moderator you need to take that up with the moderator - you can, of course, report your issues to the Moderator Committee as Entropy has mentioned.
reinbeau said:
I've moved this thread into the General 'General' section. Gary has some good points, I also think it's strange that development, real development, discussions have no real place other than General, where good work can easily get lost - however, if you have an issue with a moderator you need to take that up with the moderator - you can, of course, report your issues to the Moderator Committee as Entropy has mentioned.
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Ann, I TRIED taking it up with that moderator in a private message and was ripped by that person for doing so. I was told to keep my thoughts to myself and that I wasn't supposed to submit feedback.
garyd9 said:
Ann, I TRIED taking it up with that moderator in a private message and was ripped by that person for doing so. I was told to keep my thoughts to myself and that I wasn't supposed to submit feedback.
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THAT particular issue, in my opinion, was uncalled for. (uncalled for from the Moderator you tried to work things out with, not uncalled for from you.)
Thank you for the second move. I just hope it's read by the proper people.
Take care
Gary
The correct process is to direct this sort of thing to the Moderator Committee. Especially make sure to include the PM from the FSM.
jerdog said:
Especially make sure to include the PM from the FSM.
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Pardon my ignorance... "FSM"?
Would it be helpful to post the pmid's of the PM's sent back and forth?
(If I post the pmid's in this thread, can a moderator access them but not anyone else? I don't think it'd be appropriate to post the contents of all the PM's in a public location. I've also very carefully avoiding calling out the name of the moderator.)
Also, the issue that that moderator is only a very small part of the overall thing. If there were CLEAR rules to begin with, I think there'd be less of an issue with specific moderators.
Gary, please either forward your concerns about specific moderators to myself or another member of the moderator committee via pm when you have the chance.
Although it sometimes might not seem like it I can assure you that we intend to keep xda as developer orientated as we possibly can, however we cannot do that without feedback from people such as yourself.
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face.....
Sorry, I see you've already sent a pm to the mod committee account. Disregard my last post. Well, the first part anyway.....
That's what I get for skimming the thread.....
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face.....
I've sent you a PM, conantroutman. If there's anything else I can do for that particular issue, please let me know.
In my post, I mentioned the inconsistency of the moderating and dealing with the so-called "Development" subforums. I had a post moved out of that subforum and was told (among other things) that "The only thing in Development will be true development. Roms and kernels."
Since that time, a few other threads have been posted in there.
One is nothing more than a deodex of the stock firmware. No "development" in running a deodex script. (I had to deodex the stuff I posted before working on it... no effort there.)
Another is (and this is some high end "development") an empty edify zip file. I'm serious. Someone made a generic .zip file that has nothing in the /system directory, but will copy everything from that (empty) directory to the device system directory.
Finally, there's a thread with modem dumps. Seriously, a "development" subforum thread containing dumps of a "dd" command.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1986556
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1986645
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1986480
If I'm going to be attacked and have my threads moved when they involve actual development effort (even if it's only a single apk), then I don't see how purely stock stuff or empty shells are permitted. At least what I posted changes the behavior of the device when installed.
I'm not even sure who or what to blame for this. Is it that a specific moderator was attacking my post? Was it that each moderator has a different idea of what goes where? Is it that the rules are so vague that it's perfectly reasonable for a moderator to roll dice to decide if a thread should be moved?
This message isn't to attack the posts above. Personally, I think the development subforum is a reasonable place for at least the first two. (The modem dumps should probably be a sticky in the general subforum based on what I've seen in the past.) However, based on the guidelines quoted to me by moderators of XDA, none of this stuff should be in there.
I really hope this gets addressed.
Gary
Some rather interesting points being made here which I think we, XDA, should take on board. We obviously want XDA to be easy to navigate through, plus we also want it to be easy for people to contact us (The MC) amongst others
Personally, I thought it was rather easy and straight forward, but then again I've been here for years, it may not be so easy for others, especially new users
I'm going to create a new thread in the "About XDA" forum asking for users to give feedback or recommendations on site layout, contacts, procedures etc?
I hope you add any thoughts you may have
Rick
Moderator Committee
Here's the kinds of things that this leads to:
I'd like to post a thread trying to document and catalog the CSC variables in a samsung stock firmware, how to change them, and the impacts of changing them. This single set of variables can change nearly any aspect of a phone from what settings are available for the user to what color scheme the stock email app uses.
Which subforum does it get put in? Its certainly targeted for development purposes. Does it get put into "general" (and get lost in the clutter of "Post pictures you take with your phone")? It's certainly not a theme. I have NO IDEA the proper place to put this, and now I wonder if it's easier to just not contribute to XDA than to waste my time trying to navigate the mess.
This one amuses me: There are now SEVERAL threads in that development subforum I had my stuff moved from that are nearly identical to a post I made (and which was moved out of dev.) I mentioned these via PM to one of the moderators who supported moving my stuff before. He responded that he'd look into those new posts last night. Yet, they (and many more) are still there without being moved.
What message should I take from that?
I think you're touching on one of those issues where XDA's growth has caused difficulties to manage things, and an ideal solution has yet to be determined.
For example, on the topics of how certain types of development discussion (like figuring out a register map) might not be considered "development" in the current rules even though they should be - If you don't use the current rules, what DO you use? If you're not careful, you wind up with Development subsections cluttered with threads of "Let's fix X" (even though we have no clue how) - Some users consider that "development" even if they're in WAY above their heads and the thread has zero actual development.
It helps when moderators for a forum are developers themselves. It helps them make those "grey area" calls - as a result the I9100 forums are in pretty good shape because a number of the I9100 moderators were experienced developers, and a few senior moderators/admins owned the I9100 and hence hung out in those forums. (For example: Pulser). But as XDA grows, it's harder to get FSMs that have development experience for all forums, without overloading them and frying their brains.
What's the answer? I don't know - but please keep in mind that unfortunately, for some of these, there is no easy answer.
BTW, there is some planned rework for organization of the "Development" sections that was mentioned in the "Future" part of Jerdog's "XDA: Past, Present, and Future" presentation at BABBQ. Unfortunately, issues with the conference center network prevented the talk from being recorded/streamed as was originally planned. BTW, this is one reason I think you should apply for RD status - some issues like this are things that do get discussed in the RD forums.
As to your example of CSC modification - I think a comprehensive guide for this WOULD be highly useful. The problem is, you know that within days, someone will see that and throw up a "hey everyone, throw this **** in your build.prop and it'll be AWESUM!!1!!!1!1!" thread... A detailed technical analysis of each entry and what it does would be something I'd consider "development" especially if some research needed to be done (including baksmali'ing, etc.) to determine something's true function - but just "OMG THIS WILL MAKE UR PHONE AWESUM!!11!!!!" threads wouldn't be... And that's the problem, how do you let the former reside in Development without the latter creeping in? Decisions like that are going to be difficult for many moderators.
Entropy512 said:
And that's the problem, how do you let the former reside in Development without the latter creeping in? Decisions like that are going to be difficult for many moderators.
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Perhaps some form of OP moderated post? Any replies are reviewed by the OP before being visible. Sadly, I don't think XDA's forum software supports this type of thing.
As an alternative, a thread locked to all but the OP. The person who started the thread states that comments/additions should be sent via PM and will be added if deemed appropriate. (I read somewhere that RD's can moderate their own threads... if true, that might be the perfect solution.)
There'd still need to be some moderation, as surely as I write this, you'll have certain people starting those types of threads everyplace one doesn't already exist regardless of their own ability to test things, etc. (Just look at how any time a new device section is added even weeks before anyone has the device, there are instantly "post your homescreens", "guide to kernels/roms" and other things the mods only allow one of.)
Oh, and Entropy512... sorry about trying to give you more work in that other thread that Fallen Spartan started.
Entropy512 said:
BTW, this is one reason I think you should apply for RD status - some issues like this are things that do get discussed in the RD forums.
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Heh - at this point, I doubt that would happen. In the past 2 days, I've managed to get quite a few people on XDA pissed at me. It's not that I've tried to, just that I got to the mental point of speaking "plainly" instead of trying to be politically correct.
As well, and to be completely fair, I haven't been posting most of my code contributions here on XDA lately. Then again, there's no good place to post things like "add support for sms messaging over bluetooth" on XDA. It's not product by itself, but something that needs to be compiled into a larger project - hence there's no home for it here.
(I'm (perhaps incorrectly assuming that the RD program on XDA depends on a certain number of things posted here on XDA.)
Hi Gary,
First of all, I'd just like to say that I've read through your posts in this thread and the "feedback/ recommendations for xda" thread and you've had some great thoughts and ideas which I reckon could definitely improve certain aspects of this site. The main problem just seems to be putting it into action and making sure the ides stays as true as possible to what it's meant to be, rather than filter off into something which will fizzle out and have nothing more mentioned about it.
Now onto the suggestion of OP moderated posts.
While this could be a great idea on other forums, I don't really think it's feasible here on XDA.
If a thread is at the stage where it may be needed for the OP to review what posts are allowed, that is the exact same moment when that idea would simply become unmanageable.
I think this because no matter what the persons "level" on XDA is, there would be too many posts to review to give them time to do anything else. This is especially true for those who are developers, not just RDs.
As a result of it being too much for them to handle, things would revert back to the system currently in place. We've then gained nothing.
The same would also ring true if OPs would need to add posts themselves, out of all the PMs they'd received. Even if the OP of a thread was happy to wade through all the PMs they receive, it's quite easy to accidentally miss some messages.
Even mods have missed a message of mine at times simply because they have loads come through. The OP would surely have even more PMs come through meaning that loads more messages could be skipped by accident.
And yes, RDs can moderate their own threads but only to the extent of closing/reopening it. They can't remove comments like moderators can.
James
''Absolute power corrupts absolutely, but absolute powerlessness does the same''