Related
I'm not sure of the legal basis for O2 refusing to supply onlock codes (which they have done with me 3 times now, despite others' success), so I have decided to complain to OFCOM.
1) I don't see how they can control what I do with a phone I have bought privately, SIM free on the open market.
2) I have no contract with them, so they cannot bind me to anything. They have tried telling me I can have the unlock code when I have had my PAYG SIM for a year; however, this is nothing to do with the xda. These were two separate transactions. There is no term in my SIM contract relating to a particular phone.
3)the original owner still has a contract with them and is using his SIM in his new phone, thus they are not losing out. Furthermore, by refusing to unlock it they are getting two customers from one contract.
4) It is anti-competitive, as I cannot choose to go to a cheaper network (I want to use T-Mobile for the free voicemail). They could raise their PAYG tariff astronomically, and I would still have to use O2 or my phone would be useless. I am also unable to use a foreign SIM card when abroad, thus am tied in to expensive international calls, with the money going to O2.
5) What would I do if O2 go bust or cease to trade, or fail to get their licence renewed, etc? My phone would be absolutely useless.
Below is the link I have used to register my complaint. If they are inundated with complaints, hoefully they will do something about it.
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/contact_ofcom/general_complaint
Cathy
I guess I am playing Devil's Advocate, but I have to say that I see there point.
Otherwise, ANYONE could buy an XDA2 for just one example, sell it on at a high profit from the subsidisation cost he/she paid/will pay through the contract term, and make a tidy profit there and then, whilst still selling it to you for less than an unlocked SIM free handset from the likes of eBay.
I appreciate your views, BUT, to the letter of the law, UNTIL the original purchaser fulfills his 12 months, its technically not even HIS to sell to you.
Its a grey area, but to the letter of the law, that's the situation.
We ALL know that in reality it doesn't work that way, and we all sell stuff on before the 12 months is up, knowing that we as the original owner are liable to ensure we see out the 12 months.
BUT, in your case however, you are not talking about a day to day ownership, but arguing a point of law because of the difficult situation you are in.
And as I outlined, this is one of the very reasons why, to the letter of the law, its not even meant to pe permissable to even sell it on to you.
It becomes the property of the original purchaser, only at the point he has satisfied his 12 month term, and only then is he really meant to sell it.
We all know this isn't what happens, but it DOES mean we are not in any position to argue law, if we choose to agree to buying it.
Otherwise, i could buy a £120 XDA2 from onestop, with a contract bringing it to £360 all in, over a year, BUT sell it straight on to you now for £400, unopened, sealed, brand new in effect, sim free, and make a tidy profit of £40, AND spread the rest of my repayments to O2, IF they were to then instantly agree to give you the unlock code.
An unlikely scenario to say the least.
(All this of course aside from the fact that the XDA2 can easily be unlocked using any of the tools on this site - including the latest ROM version I beleive - so I am not sure waht the purpose of the post is Cathy - why not just unlock it like I did, to use it on Orange?)
im with you Shadamehr. Why bother complaining when its so easy to unlock it anyway. i unlocked mine without problem using the tools available on this website.
...However, there have also been posts from people who have used the download tools and have then experienced problems. I have the ROM version that requires the hard reset and using bootloader mode, or whatever it is. I am not a computer expert, and I have forund from experience that tampering with things that are at present working is not a good plan. It is very time consuming, and I don't feel competent to deal with any problems that arise.
Cathy said:
I have the ROM version that requires the hard reset and using bootloader mode, or whatever it is. I am not a computer expert, and I have forund from experience that tampering with things that are at present working is not a good plan. It is very time consuming, and I don't feel competent to deal with any problems that arise.
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Click to collapse
I completely agree with your right and demand to get services in such a case. However, for anyone that does not want to go through the unlock process with the bootloader and hard reset (the 'old' method), I advise you to upgrade. As far as I know all major sellers now provide upgrades. These will also upgrade your radio to version 1.10.x, which is a very much improved radio version. Well worth the upgrade. After that upgrade the simple upgrade tool (the 'new' method) works.
Cathy, I never meant to offend - just to point out the basic premise that on a point of law, you have no legal basis to ask for the unlock code, because to the letter of the law, he had no legal right to even sell you it.
It's a bit hard insisting on an unlock code from the netowrk, for a device that the owner shouldn't even have sold you anyway now is it?
I know we ALL do it QUIETLY, but that doesn't make a whole lot of difference when we need to kick up a fuss and publicise it does it?
But believe me, the Unlock method you refer to, if you have radio stack version 1.05, is REALLY easy enough, and in fact, the LEAST dangerous, in that it isn't actually CHANGING anything unlike the others, as it is only working out what the unlock code is - it doesn't actually unlock it - it only works out the code for you, so it could be argued it's the least intrusive/dangerous.
You then just put another network SIM into the XDA2, so it gives the obvious unathaurised SIM message, and then asks you to enter the unlock code - just exactly the same as if it was supplied by the network.
Failing that, and if you still are unhappy, which I understand, then the new GENUINE, OFFICIAL ROM Upgrade is now available from the O2 UK website.
It's a long process of around an hour all in, but it updates to the latest version whereby you can run a simple unlock tool on the phone to do it all for you.
Hope this is of some use, and if any of us can help more, just ask here...
Thank you...
ahhh, but...
I would contend that although the owner no longer has the phone and has sold it, he is in fact meeting the subsidation requirement by maintaining his contract.
I would also contend or pose the question that what if you broke the phone (by mistake)?
As long as the contract period is still upheld by the original owner, than the provider has no right to hold the unlock code of the now, transferred phone. That's why there are cancellation fees and long-term contracts.
JS
If a locked phone presents a problem for a potential customer then they should, at the outset, request that the phone be unlocked and that your signing the contract depends on this, the reason, if asked, is that you may have to use a 3rd party sim in another country and you dont wish to carry 2 phones, or see why you should.
Re: ahhh, but...
wiredup said:
I would contend that although the owner no longer has the phone and has sold it, he is in fact meeting the subsidation requirement by maintaining his contract.
I would also contend or pose the question that what if you broke the phone (by mistake)?
As long as the contract period is still upheld by the original owner, than the provider has no right to hold the unlock code of the now, transferred phone. That's why there are cancellation fees and long-term contracts.
JS
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Click to collapse
Of course there IS mate.
Because under UK law, the network is within the law to with-hold the code to the actual contract holder, never mind the person they re-sold the handset on to. (Save for them charging a 'small' admin fee and supplying you with it IF you pay of the equivalent of the remainder of your contract).
So they are WELL within their rights to do what they are doing.
Let's not forget here, we are talking about heavy subsidisation by the networks towards the original handset.
My XDA2 cost £119. With my contract, that will be still only £360 or even less, all told.
i can't even buy an equivalent Pocket PC itself for that sort of money, never mind something as swanky as an expensive XDA2 that would cost loads more.
This is becuase the network is so heavily subsidising the cost of it.
And yet you expect them just to say "certainly sir/madam, with pleasure" when you ask them for an unlock code part way through your contract?
Er yeah, right.
Put it this way, the day they do, is the day our handsets start costing £400 or even £500 WITH A CONTRACT.
Let's be real folks!
Again, im with u Shadamehr :wink: . The networks have every right to deny you the unlock code as technically it is still their phone until the contract is fully paid as the handset is heavily subsidised. the networks would lose a lot if the phone was unlocked out of the box or they gave the code away before the contract was up. As i said previously, why bother complaining to them when there are tools available on this website for unlocking the phone , pre and post update. it is just a waste of time and energy when u can have the code in less time than it would take to get through to them to explain to them why they should giv u the code. im not a phone techy but i followed the instructions on the pre update tool and it worked without problem giving me the code. i put my old Vodafone SIM in and entered the code the tool gave me. it worked without a problem . they obviously arent giving you the code Cathy, so cheat like the rest of us :wink: .
Re: ahhh, but...
Shadamehr said:
wiredup said:
I would contend that although the owner no longer has the phone and has sold it, he is in fact meeting the subsidation requirement by maintaining his contract.
I would also contend or pose the question that what if you broke the phone (by mistake)?
As long as the contract period is still upheld by the original owner, than the provider has no right to hold the unlock code of the now, transferred phone. That's why there are cancellation fees and long-term contracts.
JS
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Click to collapse
Of course there IS mate.
Because under UK law, the network is within the law to with-hold the code to the actual contract holder, never mind the person they re-sold the handset on to. (Save for them charging a 'small' admin fee and supplying you with it IF you pay of the equivalent of the remainder of your contract).
So they are WELL within their rights to do what they are doing.
Let's not forget here, we are talking about heavy subsidisation by the networks towards the original handset.
My XDA2 cost £119. With my contract, that will be still only £360 or even less, all told.
i can't even buy an equivalent Pocket PC itself for that sort of money, never mind something as swanky as an expensive XDA2 that would cost loads more.
This is becuase the network is so heavily subsidising the cost of it.
And yet you expect them just to say "certainly sir/madam, with pleasure" when you ask them for an unlock code part way through your contract?
Er yeah, right.
Put it this way, the day they do, is the day our handsets start costing £400 or even £500 WITH A CONTRACT.
Let's be real folks!
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Click to collapse
Shadamehr,
Clearly you do not understand. Let's suppose: As you stated, the phone would normally be 360, but since the network subsidize the phone, they sell it for 199. Fair enough. I know I am responsible for a contract term of 1 year. Done.
I have later sold the phone after just 3 months. I am STILL responsible for the one year contract... still paying back their "subsidation!" So, what the BIG deal whether I still own the phone or not--the contract obligations are still being met!... own the phone or not.
Like I said before, WHAT IF I broke the phone? What's the difference, I am still obligated to continue the contract--phone or no phone! AND, they still get their SUBSIDATION!
Geez... and, it's no different in USA!
Don't be so bloody stupid.
No one ever said it doesn't HAPPEN. Or are you blind?
What I CLEARLY said is that just because it goes on, unspoken, quite regular, doesn't help one little bit when it comes to wanting an unlock code from the network provider within year one.
May I suggest you re-read my post again?
And PLEASE - if you are in the USA, dont make the mistake of assuming that things must automatically be the same.
If you buy a car on H.P. (slightly different, admittedly), then you CANNOT automatically sell that car on in the UK, if you are still paying back the H.P. on it, and to do so can be illegal. That is a simple given fact that most people in the UK know about - so please don't assume for one second that things have to be the same.
If you want to settle this definitively, then feel free to ring OFCOM, and then post your response here for us to share. But I offer you don't need to, as I already posted what the situation is in the UK.
Besides, let me end by saying as LOUD as I can, as you seem to have missed it...
The day that the networks start giving out Unlock codes within the first 12 months, is the day our handsets suddenly cost 100% more money to obtain, even WITH a contract included.
YOU might want that mate...
But us sensible sorts in the rest of the world surely DON'T want to see an average cost increase of at least £100 on an XDA2 for example, just to cover those people who want an unlock code from the start.
There is a method already in existance for getting a phone network free...
It's called BUYING SIM FREE/UNLOCKED. And if you are going to tell me that it costs MUCH MORE to buy it that way, as opposed to on a contract, now why on earth might that be I wonder... now let me think...?
Oh dear me - not because on contract the networks heavily subsidise them by any chance - well there you go - would you look at that!
Sorry for being flippant, but isn't that what I already said in my post, and I now find I am repeating it here...
(And as an EDIT to this post, as I realised it hasn't sufficiently covered your post, let me remind you that one little detail - no matter whether you DO continue to pay your bills in respect of it, as the original owner. UNTIL the subsidisation period is met, even with you still happily paying for a phone you sold, then the networks do not give out the unlock code, and are within their rights under UK law to do so - so your argument has no merit, or productive outcome anyway - it doesn't make a jot of difference to the new owner anyway, until YOU have paid your 12 months - which is also covered in my post).
Shadamehr said:
Don't be so bloody stupid.
No one ever said it doesn't HAPPEN. Or are you blind?
What I CLEARLY said is that just because it goes on, unspoken, quite regular, doesn't help one little bit when it comes to wanting an unlock code from the network provider within year one.
May I suggest you re-read my post again?
And PLEASE - if you are in the USA, dont make the mistake of assuming that things must automatically be the same.
If you buy a car on H.P. (slightly different, admittedly), then you CANNOT automatically sell that car on in the UK, if you are still paying back the H.P. on it, and to do so can be illegal. That is a simple given fact that most people in the UK know about - so please don't assume for one second that things have to be the same.
If you want to settle this definitively, then feel free to ring OFCOM, and then post your response here for us to share. But I offer you don't need to, as I already posted what the situation is in the UK.
Besides, let me end by saying as LOUD as I can, as you seem to have missed it...
The day that the networks start giving out Unlock codes within the first 12 months, is the day our handsets suddenly cost 100% more money to obtain, even WITH a contract included.
YOU might want that mate...
But us sensible sorts in the rest of the world surely DON'T want to see an average cost increase of at least £100 on an XDA2 for example, just to cover those people who want an unlock code from the start.
There is a method already in existance for getting a phone network free...
It's called BUYING SIM FREE/UNLOCKED. And if you are going to tell me that it costs MUCH MORE to buy it that way, as opposed to on a contract, now why on earth might that be I wonder... now let me think...?
Oh dear me - not because on contract the networks heavily subsidise them by any chance - well there you go - would you look at that!
Sorry for being flippant, but isn't that what I already said in my post, and I now find I am repeating it here...
(And as an EDIT to this post, as I realised it hasn't sufficiently covered your post, let me remind you that one little detail - no matter whether you DO continue to pay your bills in respect of it, as the original owner. UNTIL the subsidisation period is met, even with you still happily paying for a phone you sold, then the networks do not give out the unlock code, and are within their rights under UK law to do so - so your argument has no merit, or productive outcome anyway - it doesn't make a jot of difference to the new owner anyway, until YOU have paid your 12 months - which is also covered in my post).
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Click to collapse
The debate was a discussion of whether network should indeed allow unlock codes to be made available before the contract term--of which I replied.
My comments addressed your arrogant, definitive statements surrounding why carriers do not release unlock codes. That is, and what you believe to be, a dependency between contracts and subsidation. However, my opinion was simply the two are mutually exclusive.
Law is the law. While you might prefer subsidation and being locked into a carrier, others may prefer the contractless freedom--of which, some are available.
In addition, I think your condescending, rude and utterly poor communication skills are of an entirely new thread. I suggest a filter between your brain and keyboard as clearly your intuition to write without consideration is overwhelmingly powerful.
It is simply a discussion.
Best regards,
JS
Mmm - I've spent seven years as a die hard internet user, from forums, to newsgroups, to chat rooms and all in between.
I learned a LONG time ago, that the rudest, most arrogant and obnoxious posters are never the brainless ones, but rather, just like you so emphatically prove, the ones that try and hide their attacks behind smooth words, and flowing language.
Consequently, I'll grant you one thing mate... You probably the rudest and most offensive to post to me, in a wee while.
Another thing I learned a long time ago, is not to bother arguing.
I will simply say, the post, the entire thread, is there for all to see, and more importantly, all to judge as they see fit.
Whilst I have no reservation in saying this thread is indeed one of my more flippant posts, compared to the help I try and chip in with round here, I have no suspicions whatsoever that I will be the one judged to be the perpertrator round here - after all, I merely pointed things out. Its not MY fault that you don't LIKE what I had to report. Hey, I never even said that I LIKED it either - I'm merely messenger, pointing out a few home truths.
And not letting you get away with it that easily, I would just remind you that once again, if people DO wish to prevail themselves of a handset that is NOT network locked, the facility already exists for them to do so, and its called BUYING SIM FREE.
Or did you miss that yet again.
Making it as clear as possible for you, in case you haven't worked out yet that I have NO reason to defend the networks per se, nevertheless mate, if a Network heavily subsidises a handset, provided you agree to stick with them 12 months, not tariff change until after 4 (or 6) months, and not get an unlock code until after the twelve months, then it couldn't be simpler mate...
You either take it, or you leave it.
But if you go into it with open eyes, as you surely should, then you have no right, or place, or reason, to later post in here that you think its unfair that the network won't give you an unlock code in the first twelve months.
If you don't like that idea, you DON'T take out the contract mate.
ITS THAT SIMPLE.
And if you want to, you can then buy a SIM FREE handset.
But please, don't complain about the cost being too high then. Of course it is - that is the REAL price.
The price you are used to, on contract, is a heavily subsidised one, available to you provided you AGREE to certain conditions etc.
Note that word "agree". Because it means that once you accept it, then there is little point or purpose to whingeing on later, about something that you, as a consumer, of your own volition and free will, AGREED to.
Now please, my Email address should be in my profile.
If you want to flame me or troll me anymore - by all means do so by Email, and keep your incesant ramblings OFF this board.
Like I said - both our comments are there for all to see.
More importantly, they are there for others to judge.
I'm more than happy to let the members judge me.
I trust you are the same.
Now leave it please. (Or rather, troll and flame me as much as you feel the need to, but use my email in future instead of boring everyone else in this forum).
Shadamehr said:
Mmm - I've spent seven years as a die hard internet user, from forums, to newsgroups, to chat rooms and all in between.
I learned a LONG time ago, that the rudest, most arrogant and obnoxious posters are never the brainless ones, but rather, just like you so emphatically prove, the ones that try and hide their attacks behind smooth words, and flowing language.
Consequently, I'll grant you one thing mate... You probably the rudest and most offensive to post to me, in a wee while.
Another thing I learned a long time ago, is not to bother arguing.
I will simply say, the post, the entire thread, is there for all to see, and more importantly, all to judge as they see fit.
Whilst I have no reservation in saying this thread is indeed one of my more flippant posts, compared to the help I try and chip in with round here, I have no suspicions whatsoever that I will be the one judged to be the perpertrator round here - after all, I merely pointed things out. Its not MY fault that you don't LIKE what I had to report. Hey, I never even said that I LIKED it either - I'm merely messenger, pointing out a few home truths.
And not letting you get away with it that easily, I would just remind you that once again, if people DO wish to prevail themselves of a handset that is NOT network locked, the facility already exists for them to do so, and its called BUYING SIM FREE.
Or did you miss that yet again.
Making it as clear as possible for you, in case you haven't worked out yet that I have NO reason to defend the networks per se, nevertheless mate, if a Network heavily subsidises a handset, provided you agree to stick with them 12 months, not tariff change until after 4 (or 6) months, and not get an unlock code until after the twelve months, then it couldn't be simpler mate...
You either take it, or you leave it.
But if you go into it with open eyes, as you surely should, then you have no right, or place, or reason, to later post in here that you think its unfair that the network won't give you an unlock code in the first twelve months.
If you don't like that idea, you DON'T take out the contract mate.
ITS THAT SIMPLE.
And if you want to, you can then buy a SIM FREE handset.
But please, don't complain about the cost being too high then. Of course it is - that is the REAL price.
The price you are used to, on contract, is a heavily subsidised one, available to you provided you AGREE to certain conditions etc.
Note that word "agree". Because it means that once you accept it, then there is little point or purpose to whingeing on later, about something that you, as a consumer, of your own volition and free will, AGREED to.
Now please, my Email address should be in my profile.
If you want to flame me or troll me anymore - by all means do so by Email, and keep your incesant ramblings OFF this board.
Like I said - both our comments are there for all to see.
More importantly, they are there for others to judge.
I'm more than happy to let the members judge me.
I trust you are the same.
Now leave it please. (Or rather, troll and flame me as much as you feel the need to, but use my email in future instead of boring everyone else in this forum).
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Click to collapse
Mr. Shadamehr,
Please don't patronize me with your comments like, "If you want to flame me or troll me anymore - by all means do so by Email, and keep your incesant ramblings OFF this board." If you review your postings above, it is your posts that "ramble" (i.e. are the longest!)
Last time I checked, freedom of speech is well within the bounds of this board. Your decisive statements, most of which are opinion-driven, are your position only. I'm not sure anyone complained of the cost of the PDA's--if you review the posts, no one actually did. I have plenty of income, so cost isn't an issue for me... so, why would you assume it does?
And, may I say, that this conversation will last as long as it needs to; again, isn't freedom awesome?
All I'm saying is: we agree law is the law. The debate lies in whether it is fair or not (personal opinions); as consumers, we have the ability to persuade the industry.
I'll refrain from the "are you STUPID mate?," "Or did you miss that yet again" statements as they are useless, condescending remarks that provide no value to the debate.
At what point do you believe you're more intelligent than the rest of us?
JS
Freedom of speech is indeed a truly wonderful thing.
But YOU were the one that said:
"In addition, I think your condescending, rude and utterly poor communication skills are of an entirely new thread."
Implying this should be kept well off the board, or at least, THIS thread!
But NOW you are saying:
"And, may I say, that this conversation will last as long as it needs to; again, isn't freedom awesome? "
I'm sorry, there's not a lot I or anyone else can do to help you, if you yourself are unsure as to what you want, and change your mind to suit, as and when you feel like it.
This whole thread was about Networks with-holding the Unlock code within the first twelve months.
I have just CHECKED again, and my first post on this topic, was an indication of the current position, based on my OWN issues I had, just like Cathy, and what OFTEL (as it was then), informed me was the law, and the issues around it.
I posted that information here, and as such, was only the messenger for what I am all too aware is unpopular knowledge. Nevertheless, I was nothing more than messenger.
Because that information was not popular reading however, you took it on board to somewhat hold me to blame, or at very least to turn the argument around onto me.
Suit yourself.
I end, after having demonstrated how you blow hot and cold in the same debate (a frightening quality indeed), simply by referring the Learned Gentleman to my last post, where I said:
"The members, ultimately will decide who they feel is right, and who is in the wrong..." (or similar)...
And in that respect nothing has changed.
Now, finally, you DID originally say you wanted this kept off the board, so I implore you to do so now.
But of course, you being you, you later contradicted yourself by then saying you will keep this going as long as you want, so I doubt you will leave it now.
Funny how you change your mind to suit yourself best.
But give the matter thought, because I really can't be bothered. You see:
"I learned a long time ago never to argue overly long with fools. All they ever do is bring you down to THEIR level, and of course once they manage that, they then go on to beat you with their vast experience over you they have in that role..."
And in an effort to reach closure, can I make something clear where your WHOLE debate is wrong...?
You say:
"All I'm saying is: we agree law is the law. The debate lies in whether it is fair or not (personal opinions); as consumers, we have the ability to persuade the industry."
Forgive me for completely correcting you...
This is Cathy's post.
And she called it:
"Are O2 acting legally in with-holding the unlock code"
Clear as day, a question on whether the issue was legallly correct or not. Nothing at all, as you seek to save grace by now implying, about the relative morals of it. I can't even see where that aspect creeps in other than your OWN posts.
And my response, pointing out the LEGAL position, was thus therefore a completely correct, and completely appropriate response to her thread.
You are therefore completely incorrect in saying this is a thread about the MORALS of it - it was a CLEAR question on the LEGALITIES of it.
If you wish to have a moral debate about the relative rights or wrongs of the netoworks doing this, then I would be HAPPY to join you in such a debate.
But as this would be a NEW aspect, then I would expect an apology from you (which there is no chance I will get), for you completely having wrongly judged me, by saying this debate was already one about morals.
It isn't - please read Cathy's title again.
My response to her, that you so deride and find worthy of argument, was thus totally appropriate - she asked if O2 were acting LEGALLY (it's in the title).
I replied explaining that they were - from my own experinces with OFTEL.
I trust, and I mean this fairly and not conflictory, that you now realise that I had done noting wrong. This was NOT a debate, as you so keep saying, about the MORALS of it.
That post would be entitled:
"Are O2 acting immorally or unreasonably by with-holding the unlock code"
And in that post, your comments would be far more correct then, and appropriate, and I couldn't fault them half as much.
But, er, this is NOT that thread though.
This is the "Are O2 acting LEGALLY..." one.
Sorry for keep repeating it.
Well, that gave me a laugh during lunch time....
Original Article
BackgroundI don't believe that I need to introduce myself, but if I do my name is P3Droid. I am a phone enthusiast and have been working in the Android platform for 17 months. I have been very lucky in my short time on the Android platform. I think more than anything I have been lucky enough to be in the right places at the right times. The day I first saw and played with the Droid (OG) I thought “that is the ugliest damn phone I've ever played with”. Then I was asked back into the store by my friend (nameless) to get some time with the Android platform and he began to explain to me how open the phone was and how a “smart” person could do anything they wanted to the phone. That turned what I thought was an ugly phone into the sexiest beast ever. I guess that was approximately October of 2009, and I was excited about the possibilities and dove right in without checking the depth of the water.
I spent much of the year on an open phone and an open platform, and sometime in July I picked up a Droid X. I soon found a great bunch of friends and we formed Team Black Hat. Really wanting to break the bootloader, we spent more hours working on it than we did our 9 – 5 jobs. Eventually we came to the conclusion (with help from some unique resources), that we were not going to accomplish our objective. Every so often we still pluck away at it, but we have moved on to other things that will help people enjoy their Droid phones.
Fast forward to October 2010. I'm still in love with the concept of android, and I've done more than my share of developing, themeing, creating ROMS and even hacking. *Having been involved in so many things and having developed some unique contacts, I have been privy to information that is not disseminated to the masses. Some of this information I was asked to sit on. Some information I sat on because I felt it was best to do so for our entire community. You have probably seen me rant on occasion about what I thought the community was doing wrong and causing itself future pain. Each of those days I had received even more disheartening information. So where does this leave me? It leaves me with a difficult choice to make. What to tell, how much to tell, and do I want to give information out that could possible be slightly wrong. I've worked very hard to verify things through multiple sources, when possible, and some other information comes from sources so reliable that I take them at their word.
This brings me up to today. I've tossed and turned regarding how to say this, and how to express all of the information and my feelings in regards to this information. I guess the solution is to just let you all decide for yourselves what you think and what you want to do.
One Shoe Falls
Beginning in July, we (TBH), began hearing things about Motorola working on ways to make rooting the device more difficult. This was going to be done via Google through the kernel. No big deal we thought, the community always finds a way. When Froyo was released and there was no root for some time we became a bit concerned but soon there was a process and even 1-clicks. This was good news and bad news to me, because it simply meant that they would go back to the drawing board and improve upon what they had done.
During this time there were still little rumors here and there about security of devices, and other such things but nothing solid and concrete. Until November.
The Other Shoe Falls
Beginning in October, the information began coming in faster and it had more of a dire ring to it. It was also coming in from multiple sources. I began to rant a little at the state of our community, and that we were the cause of our own woes. So what did I hear?
1. New devices would present challenges for the community that would most likely be insurmountable, and that Motorola specifically – would be impossible to hack the bootloader. Considering we never hacked the previous 3G phones, this was less than encouraging.
2.Locked bootloaders, and phones were not a Motorola-only issue, that the major manufacturers and carriers had agreed this was the best course of action.(see new HTC devices)
3. The driving forces for device lock down was theft of service by rooted users, the return of non-defective devices due to consumer fraud, and the use of non-approved firmware on the networks.
I think I posted my first angry message and tweet about being a responsible community soon after getting this information. I knew the hand writing was on the wall, and we would not be able to stop what was coming, but maybe we could convince them we were not all thieves and cut throats.
Moving along, December marked a low point for me. The information started to firm up, and I was able to verify it through multiple channels. This information made the previous information look like a day in the park. So what was new?
1. Multiple carriers were working collaboratively on a program that would be able to identify rooted users and create a database of their meids.
2. Manufacturers who supply Verizon were baking into the roms new security features:
a. one security feature would identify any phone using a tether program to circumvent paying for tethering services. (check your gingerbread DroidX/Droid2 people and try wireless tether)
b. a second security feature would allow the phone to identify itself to the network if rooted.
c. security item number 2 would be used to track, throttle, even possibly restrict full data usage of these rooted phones.
The Rubber Meets the Road
So, I wish I had more time to have added this to the original post, but writing something like this takes a lot of time and effort to put all the information into context and provide some form of linear progression.
Lets get on with the story. March of this year was a monumental month for me. The information was unsettling and I felt as if we had a gigantic bulls-eye on our backs.
This is what I have heard:
1. The way that they were able to track rooted users is based on pushing updates to phones, and then tracking which meid's did not take the update. There is more to it than this but that is the simple version.
2. More than one major carrier besides Verizon has implemented this program and that all carriers involved had begun tracking rooted phones. All carriers involved were more than pleased with the accuracy of the program.
1. What I was not told is what the carriers intended to do with this information.
3. In new builds the tracking would be built into the firmware and that if a person removed the tracking from the firmware then the phone would not be verified on the network (i.e. your phone could not make phone calls or access data).
4. Google is working with carriers and manufacturers to secure phones, and although Google is not working to end hacking, it is working to secure the kernel so that no future applications can maliciously use exploits to steal end-user information. But in order to gain this level of security this may mean limited chances to root the device. (This item I've been told but not yet able to verify through multiple sources – so take it for what you want)
5. Verizon has successfully used its new programs to throttle data on test devices in accordance with the guidelines of the program.
6. The push is to lock down the devices as tight as can be, but also offer un-lockable devices (Think Nexus S).
The question I've asked is why? Why do all this; why go through so much trouble. The answer I get is a very logical one and one I understand even if I don't like it. It is about the money. With LTE arriving and the higher charges for data and tethering, carriers feel they must bottle up the ability of users to root their device and access this data, circumventing the expensive tethering charges.
What I would like to leave you with is that this is not an initiative unique to Verizon or Motorola, this is industry wide and encompassing many manufacturers.
So what does all this mean? You will need to make your own conjectures about what to think of all of this. But, I think that the rooting, hacking, and modding community - as we know it - is living on borrowed time.
In the final analysis of all this I guess I'll leave you with my feelings:
I will take what comes and turn it into a better brighter day, that is all I can do because I do not control the world.
Disclaimers:
I am intentionally not including any names of sources as they do not want to lose their jobs.
This information is being presented to you as I have received and verified it. *
I only deal with information pertaining to US carriers and have no specific knowledge concerning foreign carriers.
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Thoughts? Is there a future for Rooting?
Microsoft, remember when Xbox first came out. You pretty much guaranteed it would succeed by committing to spend whatever it took to. I remember a statement that said something to the extent of ' We have and will throw however many billions it will take to succeed '. If Microsoft wants to capture the 3 screens they have to make the same commitment to Windows Phone.
So Microsoft and Nokia you can learn something from Chipotle Mexican Grill that will work. Chipotle's marketing strategy is simple, and very effective. Basically each store gets about a certain amount to use on marketing each month say ~$6,000 for a store in a big city. They use ~90%+ on promoting the most effective form of advertising; word of mouth.
First time at Chipotle? Free meal!
Didn’t like your meal? Free meal this time and next time!
Forget your wallet? Ask, and receive a Free meal!
Your high school or college in the area having an event? 300 free meals!
Soldiers getting home? 1,000's of Free meals!
NOT TO MENTION, everyday there is an office in your Chipotle’s area getting around 20+ Free Meals!! All that equals 1,000's of people nationwide raving about Chipotle, everyday.
You can put up a billboard for a month for around ~$6,000 or you can give ~2,000 Burritos away to folks who are going to eat them in their office, at stop lights, in schools etc... Reminding you what you should spend your money on.
What I'd do:
Give away $125Mill of your marketing budget via product and spend $25 Mill on 5 minutes of add time for 100 million people to see during the Super Bowl telling everyone when/where to get theirs!! $20mill putting building size Nokia phone adds in as many major cities as possible to remind the A.D.D. Americans that what they saw during the Super Bowl was for real. $30mill in the pockets of the people who have the privlage of giving them away for free, errr. the people who when asked about the iPhone/Android see $bling$ and say try this Nokia for free. Come Q4 2012 Verizon and Sprint will be lining up!
Bottom line, when you believe in your product and you believe in your goals, then put your money where your mouth is. Especially when you have as much as Microsoft.
P.S>On (1/13/12) I went to T-Mobiles site. The home page was complete disappointment. No mention of Nokia or its Lumia or Windows Phone anywhere on the home page. On the side menu under “shop brands" Nokia is not listed. If you click on smart phones on the left, the top phone is the “featured “phone, the Lumia 710 for $49.99. Under it is the Samsung Exhibit 2 for FREE, and below that the Radar for $99 the next 6 phones listed are FREE android phones. The tab at the top of IE is even labeled "Android Smartphone Deals"
(1/15/12) Still the same on T-Mobiles site.
P.S.S> Full Discloser I do not work at or own any stock in Chipotle. I started researching them when I noticed they were popping up next door to every Taco Bell in town, right next door, daring all to try them! The first of many BOLD advertising strategies Chipotle uses. I'm not a developer, just a very happy WP7 user since Nov 8th 2010 Samsung Focus launch day.
P.S.S.S> Uggg.. Microsoft, you need to man up and drop what ever $ it takes to lock down the Super Bowl to be the only phone seen during the game. Let Nokia handle the creative side of things, you just open the wallet and have faith in your product and goals, both are worth every $$$$!!!
Very well written and dead on point... M/$ needs to listen to this to make WP succeed...
Excellent post and pretty detailed.
Well, you may not have an interest in Chipotle, but you sure made me want to eat there
I only have one question - isn't it different between a franchise and a B2B2C operation? Microsoft does not sell Windows Phone directly to the consumer, whereas they do sell the Xbox directly to the consumer. HTC does not really directly push Android. The carriers tend to be the ones (with participation I am sure) coming up with the marketing juice.
The carriers will market more when Windows Phone does better. I think Windows Phone will do better when it matures. It is difficult sinking millions of dollars into a product that will not stick just yet. I think Microsoft's most pressing issue is to increase development, not only marketing.
wow those are some great ideas. i hope someone important from MS reads this.
Personally, I think spending the money on bonuses for salespeople who sell lots of Windows Phones will be more effective than giving phones away for free. This will lead to good 'word of mouth' from the salesperson in the store
Interestingly enough, the fate of the phones may not be based on design and features, but on the essentially corrupt practices of the various phone stores where they will appear. The underpaid salespeople are now being offered spiffs, which I'm told are $25 bonuses for every Nokia Windows Phone sold. These are paid for by the manufacturer or Microsoft; I have no idea which. (Probably both.) Other vendors have been doing this all along, making it impossible to buy a Windows Phone. The rep would steer you away from buying the device simply to make money selling the other phones.
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Source
"But I want an iphone"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaxU0ut5tUw&feature=youtube_gdata_player
magicsquid said:
Personally, I think spending the money on bonuses for salespeople who sell lots of Windows Phones will be more effective than giving phones away for free. This will lead to good 'word of mouth' from the salesperson in the store
Source
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And perhaps educate the salespeople there why they should encourage selling WP7 phones like pointing out the OS's good features like smooth GUI and excellent integration (and of course the great implementation of smart multitasking).
Then again, convincing these people to even try WP7 is gonna be the hard part since most of these salespeople have their heart (aka bias) set towards Android and iOS
ohgood said:
"But I want an iphone"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaxU0ut5tUw&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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That was pretty funny. But I liked this as well - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSAVEl_RU8o&feature=related
Back on topic. In any case, employees will attempt to sell whatever is most financially beneficial to them. So, they need to make sure the same incentives are offered.
But, to increase their own understanding of it I think this little experiment would help motivate them to sell Windows Phone 7.
I suggest that they give 1 parent or grand parent a phone with Windows Phone 7 and one with Android. They are going to have to support both, but not in person. They must do it over the phone. They can't just fix it. They must walk them through the steps. To get the parent or grand parent to go along, they will also be compensated with free cell service, provided the phone is used.
My mother is 69 years old. When a site like MapQuest.com changes and she needs to use it, I get a call.
After that experience, I think the salesperson will be convinced that Windows Phone 7 is way better for most users that are not highly technical. The ease of use, the fact that it just works and requires virtually no technical knowledge is the selling point.
I don't think it would be as clear cut for an iPhone verses a Windows Phone though. Other than my belief that seniors will like the larger tiles over the smaller icons. Both won't have many support issues.
JVH3 said:
That was pretty funny. But I liked this as well - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSAVEl_RU8o&feature=related
Back on topic. In any case, employees will attempt to sell whatever is most financially beneficial to them. So, they need to make sure the same incentives are offered.
But, to increase their own understanding of it I think this little experiment would help motivate them to sell Windows Phone 7.
I suggest that they give 1 parent or grand parent a phone with Windows Phone 7 and one with Android. They are going to have to support both, but not in person. They must do it over the phone. They can't just fix it. They must walk them through the steps. To get the parent or grand parent to go along, they will also be compensated with free cell service, provided the phone is used.
My mother is 69 years old. When a site like MapQuest.com changes and she needs to use it, I get a call.
After that experience, I think the salesperson will be convinced that Windows Phone 7 is way better for most users that are not highly technical. The ease of use, the fact that it just works and requires virtually no technical knowledge is the selling point.
I don't think it would be as clear cut for an iPhone verses a Windows Phone though. Other than my belief that seniors will like the larger tiles over the smaller icons. Both won't have many support issues.
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Lmfao @ the second video, "will the virus turn it into an iphone 4 ?" Man I almost woke up the dead laughing at that one. Awesomeness !
The suggestion of having to give support to a parent or grandparent is so wrong. You already know how time consuming and nerve racking that is, as do i . I've done the systematic hand holding from 1200 miles away, and no matter the desire and attention involved, it is always painful. (Desktops) linux, mac os, windows (worse here with version changes) is always the same. I can't imagine the level of pain involved with a tiny phone, big shakey fingers and poor vision/hearing.
Ouch !
I'm a new Note 4 user, and generally like the phone. Like anything complex, though, there are a handful of things that I'd prefer to be different. I'll spare everyone from my litany of pet peeves, and just get to the question:
QUESTION: What is the best way to send feedback to Samsung regarding new features / fixes / etc. for the Note 4?
I went to their web site and found various technical/customer support options, but I'm looking for something more focused for enhancement requests. TIA.
I wouldn't waste the time, they are to concerned with jamming their sub par software and applications into their devices just to have their branding and signature on everything you see or interact with to concern them selves with anyone's logical or rational suggestions. Just look how Samsung operates in total perspective, they make TVs and monitors, that's their bread and butter, its where the majority of their most profitable pattens reside. To put this into the most transparent terms possible, they sell more TVs each year than there are phone subscribers with access to their devices in the entire global cellular phone market.
However for some reason to prove to them selves or whoever it is they think they are impressing or competing with, they chose to build garbage on top of googles already 1st class, free operating system and interface, they waste millions of dollars doing so and for some odd reason continue to think that they will one day create a better user experience than Google the company whos bread and butter is development and let's not forgot the company who designs every operating system for every phone they sell.
Until Samsung learns to stop wanting so much counterproductive attention on their products and realizes they would make more money hand over fist buy just selling their products as is with free standard android OS, they will continue to just shovel crap onto their mechanically awesome products rendering them to nothing but bright HD displays running ads that say how stupid they are.
In my personal opinion Samsung just looks stupid next to every other electronics company. And Google needs to grow a pair and say no android OS if you modify a single thing on it. I can't be the only person who sees this flawed business model am I? When's the last time you used an HP, Dell, or Gateway computer that had System modifications of any kind on Windows? You can go out on the limb and applaud HTC for their modifications because they are cell phone company that's all they do, but for Samsung a company that specializes in displays and makes no mobile hardware of their own worth noting, they somehow get the green light on damaging Android OS with their cut rate software, and continue to make the end user of their products disappointed. The worlds gone mad.
Whoa!
:laugh:
I can't say I entirely agree nor disagree with the long post above. I don't hate Samsung, nor am a fanboy of theirs. I just needed a large phone with a stylus, and my previous phone, while large and I LOVED it, didn't have a stylus which was highly needed. All I'm going to say is this:
Most of the time, a large corporation who sells many different devices within a market (ie, phones) wouldn't care about a single consumer's opinion. You are but a single-celled organization to them. They know you're there, but you aren't big enough to see as an individual. In addition, what changes you'd like to see or need- or whatever- most likely won't be what these corporations think their consumer market wants and will buy.
So in other words, if you send them feedback, all you'll get in response is a prewritten thank you letter saying (in summary), "Thanks, we appreciate the feedback and will keep it mind," (but wont).
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 (sm-910a) using Tapatalk
So, it sounds like Samsung doesn't have an email address, web form, forum, etc. for enhancement requests?
On the parallel topic of big evil companies, and with respect to the folks who have offered their opinions on that subject so far, my experience has been quite the opposite - I find that most successful companies do care what their users think about their products. I work in the software industry, and the products I use most on a day-to-day basis invariably offer some sort of channel for sending feedback to the developer. Every app on the Google Play store has a "Send email" link at the bottom of it's page - in addition to many companies monitoring and responding to written feedback in the ratings section. QuickBooks has a "Send Feedback Online" option under the help menu - and even offers different options for sending comments onenhancements, bugs, and doc. A large software company that I used to work for recently implemented a suggestions forum where users can vote on enhancements, actively prioritizes work on new releases based on this feedback, and publicizes the heck out of the results in conferences, doc, and webinars. Every year I see literally thousands of people give standing ovations at one of their conferences because the developer added better Excel integration, or trimmed two clicks from a common workflow. Perhaps the best example is Atlassian, whose products many in these forums no doubt use. They are laser-focused on the people who use their tools - developers - and have been extremely successful at growing into small and large companies alike by inspiring grass roots adoption.
The list goes on. From what I've seen, companies who listen to their users do well as a result.
That said, not every company is as open to feedback as the ones in the examples above. I've found it difficult to provide feedback to Microsoft, for instance, without being part of a beta program. That said, they have robust forums that are well-attended by their internal staff. I can't say for sure, but I have to assume that the most common squeaky wheels get at least I little grease in future releases.
I don't know Samsung very well, which is why I'm asking about feedback options. It would seem odd to me that they don't have some way for users to weigh in on their Android implementation. Collectively, we buy new phones too frequently and switch vendors too easily for them not to care what we think. I like my Samsung phone, but not because it's a Samsung - it just has the features that I want. They obviously do their research into what's likely to sell. I'm hoping that there's some channel where they're actively soliciting input for improvements.
Like spexwood said, I'm not going to waste my time sending a letter to the president of Samsung and get some generic form letter in return. I know that that doesn't work. I also don't expect that Samsung will care about my suggestions, per se, even if they do have some feedback form. But, I'm sure I'm not the only one who misses text messages because the [email protected]#$ing notification beep doesn't fire when a thread is already on the screen (for example), so if mine is one of 10K voices complaining of the same thing, it would behoove them to listen - or maybe next time I'll switch to that nice LG G3 that I almost bought instead of this Note 4.
Anyway, I'm still interested in practical options for sending OS-related feedback to Samsung. Otherwise, I can just rant about stuff xda-developers and hope that someone at Samsung is watching.
Please excuse me for quoting myself, but I stand corrected:
mcmannion said:
[Samsung] obviously do their research into what's likely to sell.
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I just read an article on the S6 that says that it neither has a replaceable battery nor an SD card slot? When I went phone shopping last month, these were the only two requirements I had. I looked at phones from different manufacturers, with different OS, in different price ranges... the battery and card were the only thing they all had in common.
Maybe Samsung is right and I'm wrong on this one. People seem to flock to the iPhone because it has metal and glass on the outside, even with it's hardwired battery, fixed (and expensive) storage, small screen, lack of widgets, etc. If the S6 sells better than the S5 then... then... well I'll just be a monkey's uncle.
BTW, "premium" has gained the cherished center spot on my bull$hit bingo board. The only premium I see is the extra money you'll pay for a metal phone - which will probably be covered by a rubber case, anyway. I'll take a plastic phone with a swappable battery any day.
mcmannion said:
Please excuse me for quoting myself, but I stand corrected:
I just read an article on the S6 that says that it neither has a replaceable battery nor an SD card slot? When I went phone shopping last month, these were the only two requirements I had. I looked at phones from different manufacturers, with different OS, in different price ranges... the battery and card were the only thing they all had in common.
Maybe Samsung is right and I'm wrong on this one. People seem to flock to the iPhone because it has metal and glass on the outside, even with it's hardwired battery, fixed (and expensive) storage, small screen, lack of widgets, etc. If the S6 sells better than the S5 then... then... well I'll just be a monkey's uncle.
BTW, "premium" has gained the cherished center spot on my bull$hit bingo board. The only premium I see is the extra money you'll pay for a metal phone - which will probably be covered by a rubber case, anyway. I'll take a plastic phone with a swappable battery any day.
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I almost waited for the S6, then saw the final specs on it, yep not gonna happen no water Resistance no dust resistance and by the way the metal case most likely will have the same issue with scratches that the bezel on the note 4 has. not to mention an octocore 64bit processor that is hobbled at 32bit.
I still might go check it out once my local AT&T store gets them in stock. just to see
Hi this is my first post. I'm looking at buying the Fire TV stick but my TV has no HDMI socket. My TV is a Panasonic Viera TH-42PE30 and I'm wanting to know what converters will work with this TV and the fire TV stick. I've been told that some converters haven't worked for some people. Any advice/help would be greatly appreciated as I'm looking at purchasing both the fire TV and the converter together.
They make HDMI to DVI and VGA cables should work fine. That's how my PC is running at the moment HDMI out of video card to DVI on my monitor. The HDMI port went bad
Keep in mind that there might be problems with the HDCP copy protection of the HDMI output. If it´s activated within the FireTV many converter may delivered only a black picture on VGA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-bandwidth_Digital_Content_Protection
edit removed wrong links provided.
No comments about quality, because those things have to do a signal conversion. Its not a simple "cable", all of them are doing signal processing.
Also you might run into problems with HDMIs copy protection.
No comments about quality, because those things have to do a signal conversion. Its not a simple "cable", all of them are doing signal processing.
Also you might run into problems with HDMIs copy protection.[/QUOTE]
So do you think both of those might work?
How likely do you think it is, that I spend the 10 dollars and the effort of hooking up the Fire TV to a VGA port, just to figure out which parts of the video output amazon encrypts with HDCP?
Also - there is a hint in there what you should google next to find out how android devices usually are set up in regards to a certain form of copy protection.
Or you just spend the 10 USD and then come back to tell others - highly unlikely concept, trying something and then reporting back... Nobody does it on social platforms today. Not enough upvotes. people care about the occasional insight into a field, because it makes them feel like they are diverse in their interests, but really, the second time around, it already feels somewhat old. Ask into the aether, wait for the Answer to come back. No filter, no quality control, just random noise. And if you feel like you really want a more valid answer, just venture out and try to exploit a tech community. XDA made a video for this demographic once.
Also, just as a tip - there is a reason that I cant tell how the image quality on these things would be today - even in third world countries - and I mean this in no way demeaning - the proliferation of HDMI enabled TVs is high enough that they start to reach lower income households. Thanks to offbrands. There is absolutely no market anymore for those converters. Thats why they now are in the 10 dollar impulse buy category.
Now you want buying advice on that... Ask your walmart sales rep often which 10USD coffee is the best? Ask some one who worked at those specially retailers, who now go bankrupt, because they were in the business of hiring people who understood what they were selling first, and were salesmen only after that? Then buy it on amazon. You know - the difference between Rhine capitalism ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Albert ) and whatever form americans are living in contrast to that today.
The economy in an internet forum is really not made for such requests. You bring nothing, you've invested nothing, you take value, you learn nothing that would prevent you from needing personal treatment the next time around, then you repeat the process whenever another need comes along. You exploited others when this still was a job they were paid for by companies - now you are exploiting nameless random people on the internet.
Face it - at least to some extend. Or be happy with the "there be cables" answer, because - there is no middle ground. The economy to provide you with informed and detailed answers simply does not exist.
Do something for yourself, show engagement, search before you ask - and dont fake it, because it just makes you a person who now knowingly abuses others for their benefit.
(And please follow, click subscribe and become a premium member of my one person brand. I get 20% of the proceedings. - You know, the new type of artist, we currently all like so much. Clickingly.)
---------- Post added at 09:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:56 PM ----------
Also, this:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/fire-tv/help/to-disable-hdcp-t2888934
Thank god for copy protection.
edit: And if you are really in need for a solution, read this: https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com...magic_intensity_ps3_owners_read_here_101.html
I can sum it up for you. Just buying a cable that says HDMI to VGA will not work. You have to actually have a converter. Converters for what you are wanting to do usually cost around $40 minmum. The cables are usually used in conjunction with PCI type converters. PCI type converters will not work with the Fire TV since they only work with PCs, so you will need a converter that plugs into an electric outlet.
Actually - I learned something today.
I learned, that amazon.com now does freely sell devices that strip HDCP out of the signal into the american market. Which of course is illegal.
So search for hdmi vga dac hdcp
and read the product descriptions and or comments.
Whatever those boxes cost, they cost 16+ USD from an asia based vendor. Also - because they are this cheap in production (it doesn't count that some vendors sell them for tripple their price), your monitor better supports 1080p natively. With the correct scaling (picture not squished or cut off) and everything.
According to a german amazon post by a customer who talked to their technical support, the FIre TV (not the stick) needs at least a HDCP 1.3 compatibility - at least this was suggested by an answer regarding potential sound issues.
So whatever device you end up buying in the end, it should have the ability to strip HDCP 1.3.
Also - Im suddenly much more forthcoming, because I accidentally, initially provided two links to devices that will not fit your questions profile (just looked for the right connectors (male/female), didnt read that they still werent dac (Digital to Analog converters - which is what you need)) - so I'm in "making good" mode. Because if you are talking as harshly as I was, imho you have to be correct down to the last details.
Wow, thank you all so much. I'm not really a tech guy but I can tell you I'm very appreciative of all the information provided. I will have a look at some converters and let you know how I get on. Thank you again
Its just a very unfruitful question - because the real answer is "buy something that has a HDMI port, everything does - nowadays". The followup answer is, to achieve this your way, you need something that converts the signal. Which is not just "buying a cable" - this thing has to have a chip in it. The follow up answer to that is, that those devices commercially only make sense anymore, if they are dirt cheap, which might lead to signal quality issues (also, potential scaling issues).
The next problem is the copy protection layer (HDCP 1.3) which has to be removed so you can even convert the digital HDMI signal to analog VGA. This wasnt always possible. Also - I would not openly talk about this information, if not amazon themselves were suddenly selling those devices in their store. So I'm choosing just not to share links.
At which point you also have to take into account the different versions of HDCP (because the industry doesnt like broken copy protection standards and writes new ones) and which one you have to circumvent.
And what for? First - copy protection at a point in the signal path, where currently only game streamers rip anything. And second - all that for something that increasingly even woulndt be an issue anymore in third world markets. Because everything nowadays has a HDMI port (- supporting or stripping HDCP). So this is all theoretical, and practical for almost no one in here. Which is why "should I buy this one, or that one" is even harder to answer.
harlekinrains said:
Its just a very unfruitful question - because the real answer is "buy something that has a HDMI port, everything does - nowadays". The followup answer is, to achieve this your way, you need something that converts the signal. Which is not just "buying a cable" - this thing has to have a chip in it. The follow up answer to that is, that those devices commercially only make sense anymore, if they are dirt cheap, which might lead to signal quality issues (also, potential scaling issues).
The next problem is the copy protection layer (HDCP 1.3) which has to be removed so you can even convert the digital HDMI signal to analog VGA. This wasnt always possible. Also - I would not openly talk about this information, if not amazon themselves were suddenly selling those devices in their store. So I'm choosing just not to share links.
At which point you also have to take into account the different versions of HDCP (because the industry doesnt like broken copy protection standards and writes new ones) and which one you have to circumvent.
And what for? First - copy protection at a point in the signal path, where currently only game streamers rip anything. And second - all that for something that increasingly even woulndt be an issue anymore in third world markets. Because everything nowadays has a HDMI port (- supporting or stripping HDCP). So this is all theoretical, and practical for almost no one in here. Which is why "should I buy this one, or that one" is even harder to answer.
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Click to collapse
I appreciate its not easy to answer but thank you for trying to do anyway. You've really helped me out so thanks! I'll be sure to let you know how I get on.
Does not work. Tried it. You need a converter that has its own power source, cable or other so called converter powered by USB will not work. You need something like this:
http://www.amazon.ca/gp/aw/d/B00AQMZI0Y/ref=ox_sc_act_image_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=AGP6GC0L2FALW
Most cost effective one I've seen with good reviews.
I'very tried a few others that have not worked which is why I'm confident in what I'm saying. Good thing about AMAZON, hassle free return if it doesn't work.
To reiterate again, I wouldnt have answered the question properly, If I hadn't indadvertedly messed up and linked to two wrong items in the shortform statement. (The hints toward solving the problems were right, the links were wrong.)
I dont care how much this helped your case specifically . I simply dont accept a simple line of heartfelt gratitude as "currency". Is it decent - sure. I'm just not motivated by it at all. Not before I read the question, not after the fact.
And if you feel the need to emphasize your gratitude again I have clearly done something wrong here - my motivation was to show, that it is not ok, to drag a picture perfect example of an egoistically motivated request into a public forum, without any research or intellectual investment on your part - and then expect a short solution delivered to you on a platter.
The investment of people who are clued in is so much larger on their part, and is almost solely concentrated on you personally - without any chance, that this will help many others, that it becomes necessary to demand work from you as well. Not gratitude. You acquiring information yourself and therefore rethinking the approach of exploiting the community.
This goes differently, when a community is highly active and you have many people reitering the snippets of information they just learned and helping each other out, because it is encouraging for them. Which is by the way what support forums sell to advertisers (Context matters).
See the difference in the approach, see the resulting difference in motivation.
If you dont want to learn or reciprocate yourself - do what the last poster did, and exploit a company that factors in consumer support/returns into a business model. That way it can at least be measured by capitalism as a social structure.
What you are doing is effectively destroying social structures. You take all efforts that go into problem solving, and give back no value in return. Again, gratitude does not count.
And by the way - you are lucky and in the end some one else had the very same problem and had to solve it for themselves. When they have done so - they put in the work for themselves (in this case by exploiting a companies return policy), and sharing doesnt take much effort on top of it. But looking for others to solve your problem - not parts of it, just the problem entirely - is a different animal. My motivation then is to first refute the false answers that come out of the "well I dont care who..." "well I dont care so much about how either, but I have heard" exchanges that follow. At the end of which no one even cares so much about if its factually correct or not - or even to mention the outcome.
I made an error at that stage.
And this is the only reason, why I have become this active in here - because suddenly it potentially impacted my reputation negatively.
The problem with information ecosystems is, that information nowadays is practically free, but filtering and researching it - is not. Always try to remember that.
harlekinrains said:
To reiterate again, I wouldnt have answered the question properly, If I hadn't indadvertedly messed up and linked to two wrong items in the shortform statement. (The hints toward solving the problems were right, the links were wrong.)
I dont care how much this helped your case specifically . I simply dont accept a simple line of heartfelt gratitude as "currency". Is it decent - sure. I'm just not motivated by it at all. Not before I read the question, not after the fact.
And if you feel the need to emphasize your gratitude again I have clearly done something wrong here - my motivation was to show, that it is not ok, to drag a picture perfect example of an egoistically motivated request into a public forum, without any research or intellectual investment on your part - and then expect a short solution delivered to you on a platter.
The investment of people who are clued in is so much larger on their part, and is almost solely concentrated on you personally - without any chance, that this will help many others, that it becomes necessary to demand work from you as well. Not gratitude. You acquiring information yourself and therefore rethinking the approach of exploiting the community.
This goes differently, when a community is highly active and you have many people reitering the snippets of information they just learned and helping each other out, because it is encouraging for them. Which is by the way what support forums sell to advertisers (Context matters).
See the difference in the approach, see the resulting difference in motivation.
If you dont want to learn or reciprocate yourself - do what the last poster did, and exploit a company that factors in consumer support/returns into a business model. That way it can at least be measured by capitalism as a social structure.
What you are doing is effectively destroying social structures. You take all efforts that go into problem solving, and give back no value in return. Again, gratitude does not count.
And by the way - you are lucky and in the end some one else had the very same problem and had to solve it for themselves. When they have done so - they put in the work for themselves (in this case by exploiting a companies return policy), and sharing doesnt take much effort on top of it. But looking for others to solve your problem - not parts of it, just the problem entirely - is a different animal. My motivation then is to first refute the false answers that come out of the "well I dont care who..." "well I dont care so much about how either, but I have heard" exchanges that follow. At the end of which no one even cares so much about if its factually correct or not - or even to mention the outcome.
I made an error at that stage.
And this is the only reason, why I have become this active in here - because suddenly it potentially impacted my reputation negatively.
The problem with information ecosystems is, that information nowadays is practically free, but filtering and researching it - is not. Always try to remember that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Clearly you have too much time on your hands.
harlekinrains said:
To reiterate again, I wouldnt have answered the question properly, If I hadn't indadvertedly messed up and linked to two wrong items in the shortform statement. (The hints toward solving the problems were right, the links were wrong.)
I dont care how much this helped your case specifically . I simply dont accept a simple line of heartfelt gratitude as "currency". Is it decent - sure. I'm just not motivated by it at all. Not before I read the question, not after the fact.
And if you feel the need to emphasize your gratitude again I have clearly done something wrong here - my motivation was to show, that it is not ok, to drag a picture perfect example of an egoistically motivated request into a public forum, without any research or intellectual investment on your part - and then expect a short solution delivered to you on a platter.
The investment of people who are clued in is so much larger on their part, and is almost solely concentrated on you personally - without any chance, that this will help many others, that it becomes necessary to demand work from you as well. Not gratitude. You acquiring information yourself and therefore rethinking the approach of exploiting the community.
This goes differently, when a community is highly active and you have many people reitering the snippets of information they just learned and helping each other out, because it is encouraging for them. Which is by the way what support forums sell to advertisers (Context matters).
See the difference in the approach, see the resulting difference in motivation.
If you dont want to learn or reciprocate yourself - do what the last poster did, and exploit a company that factors in consumer support/returns into a business model. That way it can at least be measured by capitalism as a social structure.
What you are doing is effectively destroying social structures. You take all efforts that go into problem solving, and give back no value in return. Again, gratitude does not count.
And by the way - you are lucky and in the end some one else had the very same problem and had to solve it for themselves. When they have done so - they put in the work for themselves (in this case by exploiting a companies return policy), and sharing doesnt take much effort on top of it. But looking for others to solve your problem - not parts of it, just the problem entirely - is a different animal. My motivation then is to first refute the false answers that come out of the "well I dont care who..." "well I dont care so much about how either, but I have heard" exchanges that follow. At the end of which no one even cares so much about if its factually correct or not - or even to mention the outcome.
I made an error at that stage.
And this is the only reason, why I have become this active in here - because suddenly it potentially impacted my reputation negatively.
The problem with information ecosystems is, that information nowadays is practically free, but filtering and researching it - is not. Always try to remember that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm not sure who this is aimed at or what you are trying to say. My gut feeling is that you're offended that I asked for some information to something. It was merely a question that I asked. For your information I have done a lot of research but am not the most technically savvy person when it comes to this. Why some people feel the need to have knowledge and not share it is beyond me, but that is your choice.I thanked you for your help, just as I have everyone else for theirs, accept it or don't, that's up to you. I did not intend to offend but am thankful for the help I have received
I agree with the post above, maybe you have too much time on your hands.
I'm using this one, you can extract the sound from the HDMI too.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-HDMI-Ma...473?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35d40dfe01
chuandinh said:
I'm using this one, you can extract the sound from the HDMI too.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-HDMI-Ma...473?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35d40dfe01
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wow I didn't think anything like this would work. I have an old Panasonic viera so I'm hoping something like this might work as would be a lot cheaper that way. Thank you for posting:good:
>Wow I didn't think anything like this would work.
If you had read amazon reviews, you' have found out that some of those models strip HDCP as well. Just saying. They advertise it as "compatible with DVD players, Playstation 3 and XBOX", because its illegal.
harlekinrains said:
>Wow I didn't think anything like this would work.
If you had read amazon reviews, you' have found out that some of those models strip HDCP as well. Just saying. They advertise it as "compatible with DVD players, Playstation 3 and XBOX", because its illegal.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Was there really any need? I have read reviews about this so stop making such a big deal about this. People are trying to help, yet you seem intent on making out what I've done is wrong. Nobody else has reacted like you, I suggest you don't post if it annoys you so much
Yes there was a need. Focusing on the form factor is harmful, when more than half of those adapters (same form factor) dont strip DHCP from the signal.
Linking to certain ebay sellers or product rebrands is solicitation. Also ebay auctions are gone within a few weeks which might induce the search for similar looking models. "I never thought it would be possible within this form factor" - without context - is drawing potentially harmful conclusions that others could copy and end up with non working devices.
Those are two reasons why It was necessary to break the focus on form factor - and focus on the stripping DHCP part again. As far as price point is concerned, 16USD from some sources also was old news. (This one is 10 USD with no mention of DHCP stripping in the product description (could still be in it) and one anonymous recommendation from someone on the internet.)
This is enough for me to feel the need to become active again.