Related
I read in a few places that there are now over 30,000 Andriod Apps on the Android Market, but I don't see them here: http://www.android.com/market/
By my count there are exactly 34 paid apps and 134 free apps...
Am I missing something?
Maybe they show up when browsing from your mobile
you can access from your android mobile, or use http://www.cyrket.com/m/android/
This one is also nice. Easy to search and find the apps/games you need and just Barcode Scan them to install into you phone....
http://uk.androlib.com/
/Dudeldei
I think http://www.appstorehq.com/android-apps is very good. You can download or buy the app directly from the website, from your phone.
Andaho said:
I read in a few places that there are now over 30,000 Andriod Apps on the Android Market, but I don't see them here: http://www.android.com/market/
By my count there are exactly 34 paid apps and 134 free apps...
Am I missing something?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
android.com/market doesn't show all the apps... stupid I know
You need to use something like cyrket.com or androidlib to view all the apps on a PC.
Ha, I was wondering the same thing as the OP- will have to bookmark the links.
Just on a side note: what's the general procedure of downloading/installing apps from a PC (or for that matter on the device)?
sh500 said:
Ha, I was wondering the same thing as the OP- will have to bookmark the links.
Just on a side note: what's the general procedure of downloading/installing apps from a PC (or for that matter on the device)?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you download a application to your PC, you'll have to transfer it to your phone. Either by copying it to your SD card, or by other means. You then have to install it via a file manager like Linda, ASTRO or similar.
If you use the Android Market on your phone, you just find a program, select install and voila.
Thanks for that.
Need to have the device in my hand to really find out things about it and more importantly to me, how it's done differently than on a WinMo device!
Hi,
I just found this when visiting AndroidCentral.com:
http://www.androidcentral.com/app-overload-take-control-android-market-app-brain
With the seer number of apps (30K), I think it is a very nice tool/website to filter out junk apps!
I thought it worth to share
Hi,
I was just wondering are any of the game apps as good as the Iphone. There are many good games but what I have seen so far on android some games look taccy and kind of old.
I have not searched a lot of games. But what are the best games?
I am struggling with this too.
I've become so used to the quality of design, look and function of iPhone apps and their appstore. I am keen to move to the HTC Desire shortly, but am finding it nigh on impossible to even find the spps I will require. I spend ages searching and still come oup with stuff which looks like it was written for a PC 20 years ago. And the recommended sites to browse the apps on are so ugly and full of dross, but more importantly, are unable to present the applications in a way which gives me any confidence that I will be able to satisfy my requirements using this platform.
I thought it must just be me as I am new to it (although I had none of these problems when I moved to iPhone) so asked for pointers. but I am still at a loss as to where the good, well-designed, modern, slick apps are.
I believe the Desire will give me a great comms experience out of the box, but no-one has been able to convince me that the apps I may desire to customise the device to me requirements are actually available.
Please dont think I am having a go; I am not. I am dead keen to move to this platform, but my research is not delivering results so far.
So I ask again, where is the good stuff?
XDAgeek said:
I am struggling with this too.
I've become so used to the quality of design, look and function of iPhone apps and their appstore. I am keen to move to the HTC Desire shortly, but am finding it nigh on impossible to even find the spps I will require. I spend ages searching and still come oup with stuff which looks like it was written for a PC 20 years ago. And the recommended sites to browse the apps on are so ugly and full of dross, but more importantly, are unable to present the applications in a way which gives me any confidence that I will be able to satisfy my requirements using this platform.
I thought it must just be me as I am new to it (although I had none of these problems when I moved to iPhone) so asked for pointers. but I am still at a loss as to where the good, well-designed, modern, slick apps are.
I believe the Desire will give me a great comms experience out of the box, but no-one has been able to convince me that the apps I may desire to customise the device to me requirements are actually available.
Please dont think I am having a go; I am not. I am dead keen to move to this platform, but my research is not delivering results so far.
So I ask again, where is the good stuff?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Good stuff is in the market. To find the good stuff you need to search in the market on your phone or via cyrket.com
If you give a list of apps I'll more than hapily find ones that are as good as or better than iPhone equivalents.
I've been trying Cyrket.com but it doesnt seem to work properly for me. All I did was filter for navigation tools and it came up with a blank.
As for a list of required apps,
- Exchange Tasks (with push sync)
- Compass
- London Tube map/planner
- Tide Planner for sailing
- Office apps - Word, Spreadsheet, Powerpoint editing
- Decent dictionary/thesaurus - such as Chambers
- and some quality games with good graphics
That'll do for starters
Android really got it's start as a device platform for the more tech savvy.
Most of the first year's worth of apps were written by developers venturing into the Android app environment. As such - most were pretty rudimentary and more focused on performance (learning how to make an app work well in the Android environment) than aesthetics. Also, there were many more apps made for productivity, communication, etc and very few made for Gaming (as Gaming development is normally a LOT more involved). Finally, the G1 which for a LONG time was the only device available was so memory constricted that many custom home screen apps had difficulty running - MUCH LESS any graphically oriented game. It was a learning experience.
AND, one cannot say (as I have read many claim) that Android is just Linux on a phone so what is the big deal development wise.... I have read this forum a LOT and Android IS NOT just Linux on a phone. There are a lot of differences and a lot more restrictions with Android.
Believe it or not... The Android app scene is constantly improving. Better looking games and more polished apps are constantly coming out.
Please don't try to compare the Android apps available to the Iphone which has had over three years to improve and started out with a better device in the first place.
I really dislike the Iphone and feel it's GUI is not intuitive at all (for me). So, I never really used one at length. But, I have seen some really great games on the Iphone. However, I can definitely say - I ENVY the Iphone devs a great starter phone for development! I only wish that Google/Android had put out a really great device (not memory restricted) as a first device. It would have made it so much easier for the developers to learn and work on.
Try AppBrain.com to search for apps. That is the site I use now. They also have a companion app for the phone.
Thanks for that historical viewpoint.
The interesting thing is that I actually dont 'NEED' to add many 3rd party apps to the Desire spec in order to fill my requirements as the out-of-box experience is so good. I have over 130 apps on my iPhone, but I probably use 10 of them regularly - the rest are just a bit of fun.
At present I am just trying to assimilate what apps are available that I know I will need, and how good the quality is.
Are any of the better 3rd party apps emulating the style of the SENSE UI? That would be cool.
XDAgeek said:
As for a list of required apps,
- Exchange Tasks (with push sync)
- Compass
- London Tube map/planner
- Tide Planner for sailing
- Office apps - Word, Spreadsheet, Powerpoint editing
- Decent dictionary/thesaurus - such as Chambers
- and some quality games with good graphics
That'll do for starters
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This took me 2 minutes on cyrket.com
- Exchange
Am not going to bother searching, htc sense gives exchange functions
- Compass
http://www.cyrket.com/p/android/com.mob4.compassPro/
- Tube
http://www.cyrket.com/p/android/com.presselite.londontube/
- Tides
http://www.cyrket.com/p/android/com.atlantistech.android.tideapp/
- Office
http://www.cyrket.com/p/android/android.androffice/
- Dictionary
http://www.cyrket.com/p/android/org.freedictionary/
- Games
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LEjO9DGppo
http://www.brighthub.com/mobile/google-android/articles/62882.aspx
brummiesteven said:
This took me 2 minutes on cyrket.com
- Exchange
Am not going to bother searching, htc sense gives exchange functions
- Compass
http://www.cyrket.com/p/android/com.mob4.compassPro/
- Tube
http://www.cyrket.com/p/android/com.presselite.londontube/
- Tides
http://www.cyrket.com/p/android/com.atlantistech.android.tideapp/
- Office
http://www.cyrket.com/p/android/android.androffice/
- Dictionary
http://www.cyrket.com/p/android/org.freedictionary/
- Games
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LEjO9DGppo
http://www.brighthub.com/mobile/google-android/articles/62882.aspx
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
impressive games
why still I have a WM
Thanks for the list of apps. Some good stuff in there!
Re the Exchange on Desire, the reason I included this in my request was that all my research indicates that the Exchange implementation does not include Tasks.
I could use Moxier Mail which includes task exchange sync, but that may compromise the integration with the rest of the Sense UI, so I am looking for a good Task app with exchange sync, perhaps using WebDav.
It would be great if Tasks was included in the Sense interface as standard, but so often Tasks are omitted. Baffles me why they leave it out - same on iPhone.
I'm unfortunately going to have to post this in a few places because I don't know where it's going to get the most exposure, but I'll start here because I have a Desire.
I need an app to manage the various projects that I have going on. In some ways, you can think of it as a todo application which has subtasks, projects/groups, action lists, sorting via time till due/time taken/project/importance etc.
If you have the time, check out this site where there guy goes through a number of options and criteria for a good GTD (getting things done) application.
I've tested:
OpenLoops
Astrid
Goals Todo
For starters, Astrid cannot sort by tag/project and non have sub-tasks.
I'm really hoping there is a project management app out there and someone can help me.
http://www.appbrain.com/app/com.ssi.gtasksbeta
mouth said:
http://www.appbrain.com/app/com.ssi.gtasksbeta
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i use it also...
Is this purely an offline GTasks? (I couldn't really see much in the way of features.) If it is, GTasks is quite a basic todo manager, let alone project manager.
Projects feature for Astrid is currently in development. Don't expect it all that soon though.
-------------------------------------
Sent from my HTC Desire
Someone suggested Got To Do + Toodledo. Seems to have much going for it. Testing it out now.
ActionComplete?
Cleargrey said:
I'm unfortunately going to have to post this in a few places because I don't know where it's going to get the most exposure, but I'll start here because I have a Desire.
I need an app to manage the various projects that I have going on. In some ways, you can think of it as a todo application which has subtasks, projects/groups, action lists, sorting via time till due/time taken/project/importance etc.
If you have the time, check out this site where there guy goes through a number of options and criteria for a good GTD (getting things done) application.
I've tested:
OpenLoops
Astrid
Goals Todo
For starters, Astrid cannot sort by tag/project and non have sub-tasks.
I'm really hoping there is a project management app out there and someone can help me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have you tested 'action complete'
Their website: http://actioncomplete.com/android
Review of it: http://www.androidtapp.com/actioncomplete/
It's free and was built around GTD system afaik. It allows for sorting and projects with 'actions' and 'waits' within them. Good luck
You might want to try Thymer.
It's online and I believe it's not free but they have a beta running for Android.
I'm also looking for something similar. My only real requirement is sub-tasks though.
Got To Do seems nice, but to get sub tasks you have to pay for a pro license for ToodleDo, after you pay for the app itself. I'm sure its not expensive, but still...
Action Complete doesn't seem to have sub tasks.
I've also checked out Astrid and OpenLoops.
I thought the whole idea of GTD was to break a task down into smaller sub-tasks so you can "get things done".
I think I was actually using ToodleDo on my iPhone, but I don't recall having to pay to get sub tasks. Perhaps that is new.
Any methodologies in mind? Any back end software like MS Project Server or open source PM apps / servers in mind? I.e. how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
cosmicharade said:
Any methodologies in mind? Any back end software like MS Project Server or open source PM apps / servers in mind? I.e. how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How far? Currently I don't need to intergrate with any MS software (or similar) though if it was offered and useful I wouldn't say no.
What I would like to have as a high priority are:
1. Ability to manage different projects (obviously).
2. Ability to plan projects - form project trees, some may have tasks, some may have notes, some may have links etc.
3. An online/desktop backup/sync. Simply because I hate the thought of all my information being in one place.
4. A UI that is easy to assess what is going on and what is coming up.
There are obviously other things required but it's difficult to list everything which is why I attached that site that pretty much lists most of them.
@Powder79, I just looked at Thymer. It looks a bit too basic but thanks for the suggestion.
Currently I'm trying out Toodledoo + Got To Do. It seems to have most but it really does suck for giving your tasks/actions a quick look to see the state (active/waiting/reference/etc). It just has date due and overdue.
If you imagine a bastard love child of Astrid (Android), Goals ToDo (Android), Toodledoo (online), Projekt (Symbian) and Mindmanager (desktop) then you will have my perfect project manager application.
Oh, and a desktop widget for easy viewing.
I don't ask for much obviously.
Project manager
Me too is looking for a good project manager.
Yet haven't found one that handles Values/Visions.
Values/vision is like a direction, it can't be completed. There should be mesure of how well one is living the value/vision.
And projects/goals to hold the direction.
And tasks to complete project. Yet, have only seen project at best.
Need, with overview:
Value1>Projects>Tasks
Value2>Projects>Tasks
Value3>Projects>Tasks
and so..
Sorry to bump up an old thread but anyone interested in a simple project management / to do list tool might like to take a look at my app: Organisa Lite. Its on Android Market currently. It offers some features I think some people might find useful - such as updating the android calendar with chosen dates and organising notes in a hierarchical manner. The user interface is unique too: you can minimise and maximise projects and sub-notes as required and manage everything from the one screen.
I'd like to make Organisa Lite completely free and add a Pro version with much more advanced features but I need some initial confirmation and support that it is what people want in the way of paid downloads.
Mobile Project Manager (MPM)
Have youbtried MPM (Mobile Project Manager)? It has unlimited subtasks, predecessor tasks, and allows importing and exporting to/from project management desktop software. Search MPM in the market.
try MPM
Try MPM if you haven't already
Project Management App on Android
I have been a user of Project Management App, "Project Planning Pro" on iOS for long. This award winning app has helped me significantly in my Project management needs.
However, the app is now available on Android platform & I have given it a try. It works like a breeze. Its a totally worthy app to have.
Best of Luck:good::good:
Cleargrey said:
I'm unfortunately going to have to post this in a few places because I don't know where it's going to get the most exposure, but I'll start here because I have a Desire.
I need an app to manage the various projects that I have going on. In some ways, you can think of it as a todo application which has subtasks, projects/groups, action lists, sorting via time till due/time taken/project/importance etc.
If you have the time, check out this site where there guy goes through a number of options and criteria for a good GTD (getting things done) application.
I've tested:
OpenLoops
Astrid
Goals Todo
For starters, Astrid cannot sort by tag/project and non have sub-tasks.
I'm really hoping there is a project management app out there and someone can help me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Did you gave a try to "Project Planning Pro"
It meets all your requirements. Give it a try..
Ive had so many apps that suck so bad, they are so buggy and barely work. Such as Opentable, podcast, and several others. Makes me weary to even purchase full apps even though you can try them. Most apps available suck anyways.
I need:
Best buy app
Chipotle app
Panera bread app
Good podcast app
Good radio app
Good turn by turn navigation app
Opentable that actually works
and im sure there are several apps that I would like to use but not yet available, marketplace is full of bull crap. lets get some stuff people will actually use on a daily basis.
This whole market place concept is a bust.. just because it worked for iphone dosent necessarily mean it will work for wp7. They said marketing stuff like 'oh we have 6000 applications in marketplace!' Reality is its not even worth except for more than 1-2 of them to even download and waste time on.
937dytboi said:
Ive had so many apps that suck so bad, they are so buggy and barely work. Such as Opentable, podcast, and several others. Makes me weary to even purchase full apps even though you can try them. Most apps available suck anyways.
I need:
Best buy app
Chipotle app
Panera bread app
Good podcast app
Good radio app
Good turn by turn navigation app
Opentable that actually works
and im sure there are several apps that I would like to use but not yet available, marketplace is full of bull crap. lets get some stuff people will actually use on a daily basis.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Zune is great for podcasts. What do you want a podcast app to do? The Maps app has great TBT nav - no voice, though.
937dytboi said:
Good radio app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm going to guess you don't like the radio that's already in there.
This is the kind of thing that may suck on WP7 phones for a little while...but i expected that didnt you?
The iphone apps were all full of crap when they first came out....it took time for people to get used to making them, I think the promising thing is that big companies are starting to bother making apps, so it shows people are getting serious.
I read it in an article that MS is a software company and if theres anyone who is going to be able to make it work at this sort of 'late entry' into the market its them.
I have at least 12 APPS I really like and that I use all the time
I think we are just guna have to wait for a bit
The marketplace idea is not a bust.
Developers who want to earn money selling their apps and games have a better chance when all the customers are funneled to one place, as opposed to having to search obscure sites, to find their product.
At that point, it's up to the developer to try to make a compelling enough product for the customer to think it's worth purchasing.
For the customer, they could go to one place to look for anything that is currently available for their phone. They can try out any application without risk, and if they feel that the product is worthy, they can purchase it easily. The rules for purchasing each app/game will be universal. They don't have to go through different payment processes with different companies.
Purple11 said:
Reality is its not even worth except for more than 1-2 of them to even download and waste time on.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Really? So which one or two out of the following do you feel is worth downloading?
Twitter
Facebook
Youtube
Microsoft Tag Reader
Adobe Reader
Shazam
IGN
IMDb
eBay
Flixter
These are just some of the apps I couldn't live without - however, if you manage to witter it down to 1 or 2 I'll post an updated list of all my "important" apps. Although, IMO, 99% of people would have maxed their 2 apps from the top 5 in the list above.
emigrating said:
Really? So which one or two out of the following do you feel is worth downloading?
Twitter
Facebook
Youtube
Microsoft Tag Reader
Adobe Reader
Shazam
IGN
IMDb
eBay
Flixter
These are just some of the apps I couldn't live without - however, if you manage to witter it down to 1 or 2 I'll post an updated list of all my "important" apps. Although, IMO, 99% of people would have maxed their 2 apps from the top 5 in the list above.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This and more and more and more.
OP and hater beneath him, you're just being a little narrow minded tbh.
given that A LOT of the applications are data based, how is your network coverage? is it quite patchy? if so, this would explain why a lot of applications appear very bad constantly not responding/loading data.
as for the market place, i think it's a bit of a good and bad thing. the iPhone model is good for itself, but WP can't copy it completely because of the differences it has. for example, WP offers in app trial mode. this needs to be made more promonent and needs to encourage the end user that these apps work as a trial. with this, then more people who list their apps as a paid app would get better usage as people don't instantly think they have to pay anything to use it.
i personally don't buy any app unless i get a bit of a play with the app first. but the problem is, i have to go to each app to see if it has trial available. the market place needs to adjust to this variable in greater force because it's actually what makes the WP market place a great prospect and cancels out the duplicates which you see in the iOS market place (the free and paid version of apps).
emigrating said:
Really? So which one or two out of the following do you feel is worth downloading?
Twitter
Facebook
Youtube
Microsoft Tag Reader
Adobe Reader
Shazam
IGN
IMDb
eBay
Flixter
These are just some of the apps I couldn't live without - however, if you manage to witter it down to 1 or 2 I'll post an updated list of all my "important" apps. Although, IMO, 99% of people would have maxed their 2 apps from the top 5 in the list above.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Other than Adobe Reader all other software you mentioned are useless to me. I am a smartphone user, not an Iphone user.
Oookayyy... so what do you want then?
zukа said:
Oookayyy... so what do you want then?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Better: Calendar, Appointments, Time Management, Alarm, Wallet, Book Keeping, Expense Records, Maps, Navigation, SMS/Mail Organizing, Dialer, Auto-Call Record, Call Management, Data Management etc etc you should get an idea ..
Purple11 said:
Better: Calendar, Appointments, Time Management, Alarm, Wallet, Book Keeping, Expense Records, Maps, Navigation, SMS/Mail Organizing, Dialer, Auto-Call Record, Call Management, Data Management etc etc you should get an idea ..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Most of which is part of the core OS - now if all you want are better implementations of the above, feel free to discuss what, specifically, needs fixing in the core experience.
If you ask me, the calendar, appointments, time management, alarms and email are all working fine out of the box - sure, we need better exchange support (server search etc), but it does what it's supposed to for now.
As for Book Keeping / Expense Records (why are you listing both?) - there are apps for this.
Bing Maps is included out of the box. Navigation may be poor, but there are apps for this that help somewhat.
In any case - if you need enterprise features like what you've listed above you're really not part of the target audience for WP7 at the moment. Something which has been very clear ever since the February unveiling of WP7 last year.
emigrating said:
Really? So which one or two out of the following do you feel is worth downloading?
Twitter
Facebook
Youtube
Microsoft Tag Reader
Adobe Reader
Shazam
IGN
IMDb
eBay
Flixter
These are just some of the apps I couldn't live without - however, if you manage to witter it down to 1 or 2 I'll post an updated list of all my "important" apps. Although, IMO, 99% of people would have maxed their 2 apps from the top 5 in the list above.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
See we are just two different people, KI dont have a twitter or Facebook account. So thats useless to me, Shazam I wont really use. But everything on your list is fine. My problem is that some apps that ive downloaded seem not to work like advertised and they crap out by running slow or not working at all. But I think im jumping the gun here, I just think we should have a better marketplace selection but I have to realize that the marketplace has just really opened to be honest. Just felt I needed to gripe about my experience
What's also a problem (for now) is that development for Windows Phone is so similar to developing for regular Windows environments: same tools, same programming languages, etc. A lot of "normal" Windows / .NET developers are early adopters of the platform and are having their go at developing a Windows Phone app. Unfortunately they don't always consider the limitations that the platforms has. They'll use a lot of heavy animation, request huge amounts of data, use imagery not optimized for mobile use. Thus: crappy apps.
I think over time this will all settle and the apps will become better.
That said, Microsoft does need to increase the overall app performance on the phone. There's a noticable difference between the built-in (native) apps and the managed apps.
stringray said:
What's also a problem (for now) is that development for Windows Phone is so similar to developing for regular Windows environments: same tools, same programming languages, etc. A lot of "normal" Windows / .NET developers are early adopters of the platform and are having their go at developing a Windows Phone app. Unfortunately they don't always consider the limitations that the platforms has. They'll use a lot of heavy animation, request huge amounts of data, use imagery not optimized for mobile use. Thus: crappy apps.
I think over time this will all settle and the apps will become better.
That said, Microsoft does need to increase the overall app performance on the phone. There's a noticable difference between the built-in (native) apps and the managed apps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
this is blatantly false. First of all unless you're doing game programming you can only make Silverlight apps. Most regular windows applications do not use silverlight! You would think the web designers who use that stuff can create better apps, guess not.
Secondly the reason for crappy apps is entirely microsoft's fault. To get your app published, you need to pay 99$ a year for a developers license and get your identity verified by some thirdparty. After that when you submit an app, it is supposed to get reviewed by a team at microsoft to verify that your app meets many of the app guideliness set (like not crashing!).
I remember going to Tech Days (microsoft developer conference) and hearing them bragging about how their app reviews ensured that only quality apps were released but lately the amount of **** apps that have been appearing on the app marketplace makes me think they are just auto approving anything without even checking to see if it works.
pillsburydoughman said:
this is blatantly false. First of all unless you're doing game programming you can only make Silverlight apps. Most regular windows applications do not use silverlight! You would think the web designers who use that stuff can create better apps, guess not.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Zero windows applications use Silverlight. WPF maybe, but Silverlight is a web-only subset. What stringray actually said was:
Windows Phone is so similar to developing for regular Windows environments: same tools, same programming languages, etc.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Which is correct. Visual Studio is the primary development tool for desktop and C# is very popular development language for desktop.
The rest of what you said is probably true. But you can never test an app and say that it will never crash. Do you remember WM6.5 when you downloaded an app to find it didn't even launch on your device? Well at least it's filtering out all that crap
Silverlight is not only for web development. I believe since Silverlight 3.0 you can use them as desktop applications as well.
pillsburydoughman said:
Secondly the reason for crappy apps is entirely microsoft's fault. To get your app published, you need to pay 99$ a year for a developers license and get your identity verified by some thirdparty. After that when you submit an app, it is supposed to get reviewed by a team at microsoft to verify that your app meets many of the app guideliness set (like not crashing!).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How is the way you pay and get verified the reason why the apps are MS' fault?
Yea, they check them but rarely have I seen an app crash (actually I haven't yet but I'm not going to state that all of them have).
I just want to quickly point something to the ones you have hated apps.
Why don't you give feedback to developers? I have given serveral and emailed several feedback and have gotten a response each time. And each time, they take my feedback into consideration and either plan to implement them in the future.
As the end-user don't we want the best product? To get the best, we have to critique and help evolve the marketplace/apps. Only this way do developers know how to improve and what needs to be improved.
Otherwise they believe everything is dandy.
pillsburydoughman said:
this is blatantly false. First of all unless you're doing game programming you can only make Silverlight apps. Most regular windows applications do not use silverlight!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, Silverlight development does resemble WPF programming a lot (afterall, it is a subset of WPF). And we've been doing WPF programming for years now, haven't we? Actually, if you stick to simply placing controls on a page and adding event code it resembles WinForms very much. And that last thing is what I see happening a lot. Many developers create some spaghetti app, which totally messes up tombstoning or page navigation.
Once developers get more comfortable with Windows Phone (Silverlight) programming, they'll see that things like the MVVM pattern, async processing , etc. actually do make sense and can be very helpful. And that's when the good apps are starting to get made.
Secondly the reason for crappy apps is entirely microsoft's fault. To get your app published, you need to pay 99$ a year for a developers license and get your identity verified by some thirdparty. After that when you submit an app, it is supposed to get reviewed by a team at microsoft to verify that your app meets many of the app guideliness set (like not crashing!).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In general I think they do a really good job. Of course they had to learn in the beginning and a lot of faults were made. But the test department is getting better and better. The reports you get when an app fails certification are often very detailed.
Don't forget they check apps against the Guidelines. I agree there are a lot of stupid apps (Peace Sign app, anyone?). But those apps do follow the Guidelines.
Crashes are hard to predict and it's not that easy to test for them. Personally, I haven't experienced much app crashing on my device. In fact, I've seen more apps crash on my iOS devices than on my WP7.
Microsoft has said they collect crash dumps from all apps on the phone (at least, if you've opted in for that). I hope that someday they'll give us developers access to those dumps, so we can do post-mortem analysis of our app's crashes.
But lately the amount of **** apps that have been appearing on the app marketplace makes me think they are just auto approving anything without even checking to see if it works.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Totally disagree. The apps may be not to your liking, but most of them do work according to the Guidelines. And did you give feedback to the developers of those apps? They often actually listen!
So I'm working on a post for my site. It's going to be a list about things a developer does with an application that frustrates us as users. The goal is to highlight common complains from the community about practices devs use in their apps and to hopefully encourage them with feedback to improve.
This is the list I've got so far. Please feel free to chime in if you agree or disagree and ADD any things that bug you as a USER.
--Lack of a live tile: One of the biggest differences on our platforms and others is the inclusion of live tiles. If it makes sense for the application, a live tile is a must. I'm hard pressed to find a large category of apps where a live tile wouldn't make sense at some basic level.
--No fast app switching: No explanation needed, devs get with it.
--Not playing nice with Metro: You make an app for iOS or Android and now you want to port it Windows Phone as fast as possible...so fast you don't think about the design. Great apps on Windows Phone are those that capitalize on the principles of the design language.
--Have both a paid and free version of an app: Do a search for an app in the Market or App Store and you'll get two versions for a lot of popular apps: the free and paid version. There is NO reason why you would need to do that with Windows Phone. Devs have the ability to implement a 'trial' state of an application where they can do everything and more a 'free' version of an app could. Stop cluttering the Marketplace.
--Redirecting to a website: I once downloaded a sports app that had potential. I opened the app and played around. There was a pivot page that had a section for news. Clicked it...and bam. IE is opening up. Nope, no thank you. I want to use your app now your website.
These are some of the big themes that I've encountered more than I should when playing around with apps. This is not a major problem, but it's there and it really shouldn't be.
Also I'm not trying to put developers down, I know it's hard work and I myself am trying to learn as well. But we should strive for something better.
Alright, sound off with some feedback guys. Any other 'sins against users' I've missed that you encounter? I'd like to see what you think before I write the post on my site.
ALSOOOO.... How about you list some apps that contain these 'sins against users'. That way we can politely invite the developer to hear our thoughts and implement changes that benefit everyone. Happy users = $, $= happy dev.
All these are minor.. My biggest complaint is when push notification is either delayed or doesnt come at all. I've missed some important whatsapp messages cause it was delayed 10 mins.
Sent from my T8788 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
samsabri said:
[...]
--Have both a paid and free version of an app: Do a search for an app in the Market or App Store and you'll get two versions for a lot of popular apps: the free and paid version. There is NO reason why you would need to do that with Windows Phone. Devs have the ability to implement a 'trial' state of an application where they can do everything and more a 'free' version of an app could. Stop cluttering the Marketplace.
[...]
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As I agree with what you are posting, I think you missed the point on this one.
It's true that this is cluttering the marketplace, but people like to hand out a "FREE" version from a marketing persepective. There is a seperate column with "free" apps, hence it will be easier to stand out with both a free and paid app...
Also if you have a fully functional free trial (with only an add) it is still being noted as paid app, so you miss everybody who has no credit card, they will automatically overlook a paid app, even if it has a free unlimited trial (well there are always exceptions of course, but those account mostly for "high profile" apps/games).
This is the main reason, that without uploading 2 apps, there is an unfair disadvantage for the dev.
But I agree it is annoying but from a developer perspective it makes a lot of sense why people do this.
Marvin_S said:
As I agree with what you are posting, I think you missed the point on this one.
It's true that this is cluttering the marketplace, but people like to hand out a "FREE" version from a marketing persepective. There is a seperate column with "free" apps, hence it will be easier to stand out with both a free and paid app...
Also if you have a fully functional free trial (with only an add) it is still being noted as paid app, so you miss everybody who has no credit card, they will automatically overlook a paid app, even if it has a free unlimited trial (well there are always exceptions of course, but those account mostly for "high profile" apps/games).
This is the main reason, that without uploading 2 apps, there is an unfair disadvantage for the dev.
But I agree it is annoying but from a developer perspective it makes a lot of sense why people do this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree. Some devs don't mention what the trial offers(time-limited or function-limited) and hence I stay away from such paid apps. Sometimes the trial is fully functional with ads. Agreed that the devs were lazy to not include it in the description, but some users are lazy too. That would be the reason for two versions of the app.
it not being available at all.
or how about it's free on android or ios, but $3 on wp7... wtf?
Marvin_S said:
As I agree with what you are posting, I think you missed the point on this one.
It's true that this is cluttering the marketplace, but people like to hand out a "FREE" version from a marketing persepective. There is a seperate column with "free" apps, hence it will be easier to stand out with both a free and paid app...
Also if you have a fully functional free trial (with only an add) it is still being noted as paid app, so you miss everybody who has no credit card, they will automatically overlook a paid app, even if it has a free unlimited trial (well there are always exceptions of course, but those account mostly for "high profile" apps/games).
This is the main reason, that without uploading 2 apps, there is an unfair disadvantage for the dev.
But I agree it is annoying but from a developer perspective it makes a lot of sense why people do this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, I understand the marketing angle. I guess I live in some fantasy land in my head where the world is clean and organized. Hopefully with the Windows 8 Marketplace offering devs simliliar options in how they can implement trials we'll see less "free" apps because users may come expect every paid app to come with a trial.
svtfmook said:
it not being available at all.
or how about it's free on android or ios, but $3 on wp7... wtf?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That is something I missed, I how they determine the price difference between platforms?
Off the top of your head, do any apps come to mind where there is a big price difference in platforms? Exclude Xbox Live enabled games for a moment, the reason being I can see the inclusion of achievements, leaderboards, etc to be the cause of the price bump.
I'm in need of a map/location/gps app, that supports offline map caching . while I found couple of them on marketplace, ones that had nice design an functionality, all of them where online only and ones that had offline map caching had terrible design an absolutely no functionality. thats sad
design and functionality should be put first IMO
Inconsistent Resuming and Lack of Tombstoning
Once an app leaves the foreground you have two methods of returning to it: use the app switcher or hitting the tile on your Start screen. Going from the app switcher resumes as expected, but going from the Start screen restarts the app, even if it's already sitting in the background. Now this is probably something Microsoft has to fix, but I feel that if more apps tombstoned, then it could make things more consistent.
samsabri said:
That is something I missed, I how they determine the price difference between platforms?
Off the top of your head, do any apps come to mind where there is a big price difference in platforms? Exclude Xbox Live enabled games for a moment, the reason being I can see the inclusion of achievements, leaderboards, etc to be the cause of the price bump.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes if they would note next to the price tag of each app wheter it contains a Trial version, it is less needed for devs to release a seperate "Lite" version. However the problem is now you have to click the app first than wait until the buttons show up in order to find out wheter an app has a free trial.
This should be there on the big scroll list so a user will see at first glance wheter he/she can try the app for free. At the moment I can't blame dev's for introducing their own workarounds.
But what is more annoying to me is that if devs follow metro design and don't use the margins correctly. Hence the app looks odd in comparison to the native apps, i.e. a lot of chat apps mimick the messaging app but don't pay attention to the margins, the bubble sizes and the bubble alignments, which will make them look very unprofessional. This is sad because they did take the effort to stylize the app like Metro, but they ruined the experience because of not "understanding" the fundamentals of the design language. Which is not just typography but also clever and precise use of margins, shapes and spacings. And since there is not much chrome, every tiny offset or error stands out to a trained eye instantly.
Marvin_S said:
Yes if they would note next to the price tag of each app wheter it contains a Trial version, it is less needed for devs to release a seperate "Lite" version. However the problem is now you have to click the app first than wait until the buttons show up in order to find out wheter an app has a free trial.
This should be there on the big scroll list so a user will see at first glance wheter he/she can try the app for free. At the moment I can't blame dev's for introducing their own workarounds.
But what is more annoying to me is that if devs follow metro design and don't use the margins correctly. Hence the app looks odd in comparison to the native apps, i.e. a lot of chat apps mimick the messaging app but don't pay attention to the margins, the bubble sizes and the bubble alignments, which will make them look very unprofessional. This is sad because they did take the effort to stylize the app like Metro, but they ruined the experience because of not "understanding" the fundamentals of the design language. Which is not just typography but also clever and precise use of margins, shapes and spacings. And since there is not much chrome, every tiny offset or error stands out to a trained eye instantly.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think going forward an ideal scenario would be a user expects to have a trial mode for any app that a dev is asking money for. It's a win-win for both consumers and developers. Check out this post from Paul Laberge explaining some of the benefits of a trial mode.
Seems like your second paragraph is echoing the statement to follow metro design language/principles and aim for higher quality control in regards to the design.
It's interesting, I feel like 5 years ago software was all about being functional with no regard to design. Now we not only demand, but expect applications to function well and look beautiful. Exciting times
karan1203 said:
All these are minor.. My biggest complaint is when push notification is either delayed or doesnt come at all. I've missed some important whatsapp messages cause it was delayed 10 mins.
Sent from my T8788 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Are those faults of the developer or the platform itself? I ask because I don't know a lot of the technical workings behind the push notification system. My limited knowledge tells me it might be a mix of both parties to blame.
Can anyone clarify?
apps?
For sure about Notifications part.
Push Notification can be useful "ONLY" when you have the phone right in front of your face. Because right after that, they are gone forever.
Second, Push Notification usually have a delay , about a half to 2 mins, from the actual event.
Like my friend can post a thing on my Facebook Wall, and the phone took about 2 mins to update it to the ME title. Same with all other Applications.
I used to try hacking the ROM and Registry of the Phone to reduce the delay of the Title Update. But failed so hard because Microsoft really locked it up hard.
I think most of the annoyances are captured already in the initial post but I'll also add
-That some apps are still being released without mango capability.
-Some apps are just the mobile site (for example the tagged app wtf?)
prohibido_por_la_ley said:
I think most of the annoyances are captured already in the initial post but I'll also add
-That some apps are still being released without mango capability.
-Some apps are just the mobile site (for example the tagged app wtf?)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I was hoping I'd cover the most obvious complaints, but wanted to reach out and see if anything was missing. Also venting is good for us
And regarding Tagged...? Wow... I just looked at it on the web Marketplace and I won't let something that hideous touch my phone. It's just lazy and doesn't add any value to users or devs. Users get nothing out of it and as a dev what have you accomplished?
Apps like that should not pass certification. It seems draconian, but it's ok for us to demand and expect quality work.
wixostrix said:
...but going from the Start screen restarts the app, even if it's already sitting in the background.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is (or was pre-Mango) a requirement to have your app certified. The rules say/said that a user returning to a task via the Back button is trying to complete an interupted task; a user launching the app from Start is starting a new task and shouldn't be presented with abandoned work from earlier.
I have a calculator app that maintains full state across invocations. I was worried that MS would reject the app because it preserved state even upon restarting. They did accept it, though.
Worst thing for me is wasted screen space.
A good example is the official WP7 Facebook app. Go to the "wall" screen, and you have "FACEBOOK" then "Most Recent" then "What's on your mind?" all permanently stuck at the top. Space is also wasted at both sides, meaning that only 50-60% of the screen is actually available to display your friends wall posts.
I thought the idea of Metro is to "put information first", so this is ridiculous. I have a phone with a 3.7" screen, yet the facebook app is more readable on my friends 3" non-widescreen Blackberry.
Aphasaic2002 said:
Worst thing for me is wasted screen space.
A good example is the official WP7 Facebook app. Go to the "wall" screen, and you have "FACEBOOK" then "Most Recent" then "What's on your mind?" all permanently stuck at the top. Space is also wasted at both sides, meaning that only 50-60% of the screen is actually available to display your friends wall posts.
I thought the idea of Metro is to "put information first", so this is ridiculous. I have a phone with a 3.7" screen, yet the facebook app is more readable on my friends 3" non-widescreen Blackberry.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I hear you on that Facebook app. Thankfully the integration with Windows Phone makes it so that I haven't opened it in months. I check FB once a day on the browser at home before bed, but that's about it.
But I'll chalk this complaint under the 'design abuse' category.
Anyone have any other apps that violate some of our sins in the original post in this thread?
I'd like to see improvements with the sound handeling. Most games have a 'music volume' and a 'FX volume' it seems the volume % is boolean, 0% is silent, 10%-100% is full volume. I'd like to listen to my music while gaming without the Pew Pew causing my ears to bleed
Hi, I'm Trent and I co-created AppThwack, a service for on-demand automated testing of Android apps on real devices. Basically, you upload an apk and a couple minutes later you get screenshots and logcat dumps from actual phones and tablets we host.
Beta Users Needed
We're currently looking for devs to join our private beta. You can message me or sign up on our website and I'll get a beta code to you shortly. We're trying to stress the system and make additions/adjustments so the service is as useful as possible for developers.
Current Features
Real phones and tablets: About 20 high- and low-end devices and we add a few more every week.
Fast: See results in real time. Full test runs on all devices takes a minute or two to complete.
Selectable default tests: Install, launch, UI Monkey, Cleanup
Configurable tests: For example, specify the number of UI Monkey events and seed the randomizer
JUnit including Robotium support via uploaded test packages
Screenshots in portrait and landscape on all devices
Logcat and filterable logcat viewer
High-level results sortable by device or test
Full stack-traces for any exception that occurs
Future
We're working on adding more test frameworks like monkeyrunner and more default tests, particularly performance tests that measure battery consumption, CPU usage, etc. We're also adding more data visualization and charting so it's easy to see what some of the gathered statistics mean.
We plan to launch soon, but the beta program will remain in effect even after that. The service will follow a freemium model. Again, the beta is free and we're going to keep it in place even after we eventually launch.
Inter-device automation
Our back-end supports device-to-device automation, so if you have an app or scenario that you'd like to test that involves multiple devices or interaction with other devices, even non-Android devices, let me know. We're looking for people to help us develop how this service will be exposed.
Edit: I can't post links, but if you search for "appthwack" you'll find it. Btw, I've apparently lurked since October, 2008. Yikes.
Just wondering will this support of testing apps that require root?
Also any chance we can see like a live pic of the device when it installs the app and opens it?
Sent from my VS910 4G using xda premium
motodroidfreak said:
Just wondering will this support of testing apps that require root?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Right now it does not and all of our phones are as close to stock as possible. I'll look into making it an option so we automatically root before your app installs and then un-root after the tests are complete. Root opens up some new possibilities, both good and bad, so I'll need to think about it.
motodroidfreak said:
Also any chance we can see like a live pic of the device when it installs the app and opens it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes! The launch test takes a screenshot in both landscape and portrait. You can see all screenshots sorted by device by clicking "By Device" or "By Test" and clicking the "Screenshots" link in the blue box at the top.
Screenshots also show up in each launch test log so you can see the context as the shot was captured. Logcat dumps show up in the same place (Link from the blue box at the top will open a filterable and highlighted log viewer).
Alright thanks I'll try it out tonight
Sent from my VS910 4G using xda premium
Holy cow. Didn't realize such web service existed.
I just signed up and currently having a look around. Is it possible for me to join the beta? Thanks!
Is it possible for a "free" upgrade for my account? Heh just asking
EDIT : Created a new project. Then I'm stuck. The "Runs" tab is empty.
EDIT again : Oh.. uploading had error previously. Uploading again.
Very interesting project. Good luck to your team and I hope I can be a good beta tester
Realy interesting, for us, almost of our apps needs root access, so please think about adding root to your service
Test on my Sensation
Will test on my sensation
test
nullFactory said:
Hi, I'm Trent and I co-created AppThwack, a service for on-demand automated testing of Android apps on real devices. Basically, you upload an apk and a couple minutes later you get screenshots and logcat dumps from actual phones and tablets we host.
Beta Users Needed
We're currently looking for devs to join our private beta. You can message me or sign up on our website and I'll get a beta code to you shortly. We're trying to stress the system and make additions/adjustments so the service is as useful as possible for developers.
Current Features
Real phones and tablets: About 20 high- and low-end devices and we add a few more every week.
Fast: See results in real time. Full test runs on all devices takes a minute or two to complete.
Selectable default tests: Install, launch, UI Monkey, Cleanup
Configurable tests: For example, specify the number of UI Monkey events and seed the randomizer
JUnit including Robotium support via uploaded test packages
Screenshots in portrait and landscape on all devices
Logcat and filterable logcat viewer
High-level results sortable by device or test
Full stack-traces for any exception that occurs
Future
We're working on adding more test frameworks like monkeyrunner and more default tests, particularly performance tests that measure battery consumption, CPU usage, etc. We're also adding more data visualization and charting so it's easy to see what some of the gathered statistics mean.
We plan to launch soon, but the beta program will remain in effect even after that. The service will follow a freemium model. Again, the beta is free and we're going to keep it in place even after we eventually launch.
Inter-device automation
Our back-end supports device-to-device automation, so if you have an app or scenario that you'd like to test that involves multiple devices or interaction with other devices, even non-Android devices, let me know. We're looking for people to help us develop how this service will be exposed.
Edit: I can't post links, but if you search for "appthwack" you'll find it. Btw, I've apparently lurked since October, 2008. Yikes.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would like to test the tool, can you share with me..
Tested
Tested the tool, seems too good..
Suggestion : In-case if you want to reach maximum number of developer. Allow developer to use has free.
IDEA : You can request developer to post about you're tool on there app page, website & play store... As you're giving the tool as free you will get enough number of people to view & use the tool.. if the developer agree then you will allow him to use the tool for free of cost..
As a developer am ready to use the tool & post about you in my app & other places too...
This is a great tool, just uploaded an apk of my app that's in my signature and it worked, with a couple of NullPointers from the Play Store's licence service. That shouldn't happen, and doesn't on any of my devices, so I suspect it's an issue on your end. Any idea why?
HTML:
java.lang.NullPointerException at com.google.android.vending.licensing.LicenseValidator.verify(LicenseValidator.java:99) at com.google.android.vending.licensing.LicenseChecker$ResultListener$2.run(LicenseChecker.java:228) at android.os.Handler.handleCallback(Handler.java:605) at android.os.Handler.dispatchMessage(Handler.java:92) at android.os.Looper.loop(Looper.java:137) at android.os.HandlerThread.run(HandlerThread.java:60)
HTML:
FATAL EXCEPTION: background thread java.lang.NullPointerException at com.google.android.vending.licensing.LicenseValidator.verify(LicenseValidator.java:99) at com.google.android.vending.licensing.LicenseChecker$ResultListener$2.run(LicenseChecker.java:228) at android.os.Handler.handleCallback(Handler.java:608) at android.os.Handler.dispatchMessage(Handler.java:92) at android.os.Looper.loop(Looper.java:156) at android.os.HandlerThread.run(HandlerThread.java:60)
Borland
We are using Silk Mobile for end to end applications testing. Do you ever used this tool?
What an interesting service! I'll look into this from work tomorrow.
Not having used this at all, the first things which do spring to mind are:
-streaming realtime logcat
-a (skype?) connection with live streaming video of the app running, so you can see layouts/animations etc.
Anyway, I'm going to check this out tomorrow!
Quinny899 said:
This is a great tool, just uploaded an apk of my app that's in my signature and it worked, with a couple of NullPointers from the Play Store's licence service. That shouldn't happen, and doesn't on any of my devices, so I suspect it's an issue on your end. Any idea why?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for checking out the service. My immediate guess it that this is caused by the absence of a default Play account. Many devices have no account as one of our supported frameworks, calabash, removes accounts upon cleanup after script completion. On the plus-side, if you were to write scripts you should be able to add a temporary account from the test itself.
Highly unlikely you'd hit this bug in a real world situation, but it is a bug nonetheless.
Really awesome service! Can't test it for the moment as it doesn't support root apps, but this is really a great concept :good:
Maybe you could build a superuser permissions manager which would grant root access but makes sure to keep /system mounted as read-only, this way no harm could be done to the devices and us root apps devs could use your awesome service.
I actually got quite a few ideas, you could delete the mount binary in /system/xbin and use it in an internal appthwack app's private data, so that it's the only app able to call this binary and thus to mount /system.
I'd definitely subscribe to AppThwack if it had root support.
If you want help with developing this kind of secure root environment for the testing, I'd gladly contribute.
EDIT : Strangely enough, I just tested it with my app (which asks for root in the launcher activity, so I really didn't expect it to work) and had 0 failures, 75 pass.
How comes ? Have you already added root support ?^^
Either way this is really cool, I'm going to spread the words and most likely subscribe a paid account :good:
Is there somewhere we can see pictures of your device lab? Gotta be one hell of a device museum you got over there^^
Androguide.fr said:
Really awesome service! Can't test it for the moment as it doesn't support root apps, but this is really a great concept :good:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Awesome, thanks for the kind words!
EDIT : Strangely enough, I just tested it with my app (which asks for root in the launcher activity, so I really didn't expect it to work) and had 0 failures, 75 pass.
How comes ? Have you already added root support ?^^
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is pretty interesting. The only two rooted devices are a couple running CM. I'll look into this further, and if you have any ideas I'd love to hear them as well.
Either way this is really cool, I'm going to spread the words and most likely subscribe a paid account :good:
Is there somewhere we can see pictures of your device lab? Gotta be one hell of a device museum you got over there^^
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sweet, I really appreciate it. As soon as I have the number of posts to do so I'll post a pic of the lab.
Some things can not be automated, like scanning a QR code or reading/writing to an NFC tag. Do you plan on adding "manual tests" for a fee?
This would be really great to test apps on specific hardware.
worldtiki said:
Some things can not be automated, like scanning a QR code or reading/writing to an NFC tag. Do you plan on adding "manual tests" for a fee?
This would be really great to test apps on specific hardware.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for the question! Our primary focus is on automation. There are existing test houses and services that will execute manual tests like those you describe, but of course because of the manual component they're slow and expensive.
We often push folks to break their testing down into more granular chunks. For instance, verify you can take a picture and deal with the image, even if it's not the QR code or whatever your app usually consumes. This will find problems with simply using the camera and resulting image location. Now, have a separate test that processes a photo of a QR code, but feed the image in as part of the test. This removes the camera component from the analysis part, meaning it's now possible to benchmark the image analysis algorithm on all devices.
With a combination of a service like ours where you test very, very quickly on tons of devices, you can now do some more UX/end-to-end tests on a handful of devices yourself. This hybrid approach is great for finding the vast majority of issues before release.
nice post
Realy interesting, for us
Awesome tool !
No Developer can test his/her app on many devices. But your tool ... A W E S O M E ! ... I Used it yesterday to test two of my new apps ... Found some error is my app on certain devices which i'd have never found without AppThwack .. :good: :good: