Hi all,
I was wondering if anyone had tried taking HTC to court (I'm thinking small claims court in UK) for not giving those of us who purchased our handsets outright, full access to modify the bootloader etc (ie, S-OFF)?
I'm feeling some serious righteous indignation right now and am considering it.
Thought I'd ask if anyone from here has done it, or knows anyone who has, before I look too much into it.
Simple answer, No?
It's their product, they don't have to let you modify everything.
I doubt you'd have a cause of action for not being able to tamper with your phone.
Plus, you're obviously not aware how much it costs for such litigation. Even if you did have a potential cause of action, if you lost not only would you have to pay all of your own costs but may even have to pay some of the opponent's.
In any case, as much as I think S-OFF is awesome (and I'm continuously checking this forum to see when its available) I can understand why HTC would have shipped S-ON. Every time someone mucks with the bootloader and bricks, HTC will have to deal with fraudulent warranty returns otherwise...
Samsung don't seem to bothered by it though..
Nit3m4re said:
Samsung don't seem to bothered by it though..
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My thoughts exactly, also the idea of a smartphone is like a miniature computer.
A fair number of us regularly install operating systems on those with no bother, why should it be any different on a phone.
anoniemouse said:
My thoughts exactly, also the idea of a smartphone is like a miniature computer.
A fair number of us regularly install operating systems on those with no bother, why should it be any different on a phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A product is sold as it's sold. Unless they specifically advertise it being able to do something and it doesn't you have absolutely no case. Bringing a lawsuit against HTC for not making it so easy to tamper (although it's not like you can't) is like bringing a lawsuit against Microsoft for not making it easy to flash firmware onto the Xbox 360. They never said you'd be able to, even if you can — any case would be thrown out and you'd lose a lot of money. Although you're welcome to try.
TheHEFTA said:
Simple answer, No?
It's their product, they don't have to let you modify everything.
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Click to collapse
Their product, which they sold to me. Why should they have any say whatsoever on what I do with it??
ganny said:
I doubt you'd have a cause of action for not being able to tamper with your phone.
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Click to collapse
Why not, I own it outright?
ganny said:
Plus, you're obviously not aware how much it costs for such litigation. Even if you did have a potential cause of action, if you lost not only would you have to pay all of your own costs but may even have to pay some of the opponent's.
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The small-claims court in the UK is for exactly that, small claims. In Scotland/Ireland the max compensation is £3k and England/Wales if £5k. The whole point of it is for smaller cases and that it doesn't cost a lot to file a case.
ganny said:
In any case, as much as I think S-OFF is awesome (and I'm continuously checking this forum to see when its available) I can understand why HTC would have shipped S-ON. Every time someone mucks with the bootloader and bricks, HTC will have to deal with fraudulent warranty returns otherwise...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nit3m4re said:
Samsung don't seem to bothered by it though..
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Click to collapse
Exactly, its only HTC that make it so bloody difficult to modify your phone the way you want. Why would they be faced with a bigger problem than Samsung etc?
anoniemouse said:
My thoughts exactly, also the idea of a smartphone is like a miniature computer.
A fair number of us regularly install operating systems on those with no bother, why should it be any different on a phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly! If I bought a PC and I wasn't allowed to change or even modify the OS, I'd be pissed.
Ryan J Williams said:
A product is sold as it's sold. Unless they specifically advertise it being able to do something and it doesn't you have absolutely no case.
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Bullcrap. See my analogy below...
Ryan J Williams said:
Bringing a lawsuit against HTC for not making it so easy to tamper (although it's not like you can't) is like bringing a lawsuit against Microsoft for not making it easy to flash firmware onto the Xbox 360. They never said you'd be able to, even if you can.
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True, but the legality of MS preventing the modification of your own xbox is highly questionable at best...
In this thread, I see a lot of negativity, do any of you actually want S-OFF on your phones?
We're not going to get it unless we ask and there's absolutely no reason we shouldn't have it on phones we own.
Here's an analogy I was thinking of.
Say you buy a house and once you've paid and moevd in etc you realise the garage and the basement are locked.
You contact the company that built and sold you the house and they say that's right, that's how its meant to be.
You speak to your neighbours and they're in the same boat and none of you are happy about it.
So you all band together and complain to the company and they relent and say "OK, we'll unlock everything".
You feel vindicated and not long after you get a key in the post that opens the garage but not the basement.
Are you happy?
Of course not.
You want full access to the house you bought, and rightly so.
HTC know they've no right to lock you out of your own phone.
That's why they relented and gave us HTC Unlock but it's nigh on pointless without S-OFF.
And since they force you to accept you're voiding your warranty by unlocking, the comment about increased warranty returns is unlikely.
So, my thoughts are, if I, or anyone else files a claim in the small claims court for nothing more than the value of their phone, it will send HTC a strong message.
If that claim is successful, it sends them an even stronger message and opens the door for others to follow suit after setting the precedent.
I know its unlikely to be plain sailing but its not going to happen unless we try...
airchie said:
Here's an analogy I was thinking of.
Say you buy a house and once you've paid and moevd in etc you realise the garage and the basement are locked.
You contact the company that built and sold you the house and they say that's right, that's how its meant to be.
You speak to your neighbours and they're in the same boat and none of you are happy about it.
So you all band together and complain to the company and they relent and say "OK, we'll unlock everything".
You feel vindicated and not long after you get a key in the post that opens the garage but not the basement.
Are you happy?
Of course not.
You want full access to the house you bought, and rightly so.
HTC know they've no right to lock you out of your own phone.
That's why they relented and gave us HTC Unlock but it's nigh on pointless without S-OFF.
And since they force you to accept you're voiding your warranty by unlocking, the comment about increased warranty returns is unlikely.
So, my thoughts are, if I, or anyone else files a claim in the small claims court for nothing more than the value of their phone, it will send HTC a strong message.
If that claim is successful, it sends them an even stronger message and opens the door for others to follow suit after setting the precedent.
I know its unlikely to be plain sailing but its not going to happen unless we try...
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Well said & pointed out i agree with you
People took apple to court over jailbreaking, they claimed it was illegal as if was modifying it to run out of toc (should check reason why I believe that's right) but judge ruled against apple making jailbreaking legal in the US.
However HTC have got to keep devices as s-on due to contracts, debranding it would lose carriers money.
Sent from my HTC One X using XDA Premium HD app
treebill said:
However HTC have got to keep devices as s-on due to contracts, debranding it would lose carriers money
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I'm not sure what you mean, can you clarify that?
My phone isn't branded (other than the HTC logo) and not on contract and I use a PAYG SIM.
The phone is outright mine and I'm not sure how giving me S-OFF would lose anyone money?
treebill said:
People took apple to court over jailbreaking, they claimed it was illegal as if was modifying it to run out of toc (should check reason why I believe that's right) but judge ruled against apple making jailbreaking legal in the US.
However HTC have got to keep devices as s-on due to contracts, debranding it would lose carriers money.
Sent from my HTC One X using XDA Premium HD app
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Fair enough for branded phones, but unbranded ones there is no excuse for HTC not to make them s-off
Jailbreaking is done on top of the stock operating system, not replacing it, so it's not a comparable argument. HTC have the right to not allow mods to the system because they provide a warranty on the device when it's sold. No they won't sift through users whose warranty has expired, resources would be better used elsewhere.
Sent from my HTC One X using xda app-developers app
AUXRVIII said:
Jailbreaking is done on top of the stock operating system, not replacing it, so it's not a comparable argument. HTC have the right to not allow mods to the system because they provide a warranty on the device when it's sold. No they won't sift through users whose warranty has expired, resources would be better used elsewhere.
Sent from my HTC One X using xda app-developers app
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I wasn't implying that its the same more that people have taken a company as big as apple and won.
Sent from my HTC One X using XDA Premium HD app
airchie said:
Hi all,
I was wondering if anyone had tried taking HTC to court (I'm thinking small claims court in UK) for not giving those of us who purchased our handsets outright, full access to modify the bootloader etc (ie, S-OFF)?
I'm feeling some serious righteous indignation right now and am considering it.
Thought I'd ask if anyone from here has done it, or knows anyone who has, before I look too much into it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The only way you could go after HTC is if they documented a feature as being available and then didn't provide it. "S-Off" isn't a feature, it's part of the phones infrastructure as HTC ships it. Nothing is compromised in the use of the phone as it's shipped whether it's S-off or S-on so you're not being deprived of anything HTC intended to provide. In others words, based on the way HTC describes the phone, you've gotten what you paid for so there's no "harm" to justify a lawsuit. I'm not defending HTC's choice, but it's their choice to make. The simple solution is to not buy their phones.
I don't see the point of taking HTC to court. The comparison of Apple and HTC doesn't make sense. Apple doesn't want you to jailbreak period, while HTC is more open. To me, HTC s-on for a reason, if the users know they're doing, and gets s-off then good for them. Not like HTC will call you or send you a note that you'll get sued for getting s-off on your device. Just wait patiently for xmoo and Football to find the way to s-off, they are making good progress anyways.
BarryH_GEG said:
The only way you could go after HTC is if they documented a feature as being available and then didn't provide it. "S-Off" isn't a feature, it's part of the phones infrastructure as HTC ships it. Nothing is compromised in the use of the phone as it's shipped whether it's S-off or S-on so you're not being deprived of anything HTC intended to provide. In others words, based on the way HTC describes the phone, you've gotten what you paid for so there's no "harm" to justify a lawsuit. I'm not defending HTC's choice, but it's their choice to make. The simple solution is to not buy their phones.
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I completely agree with you.
AUXRVIII said:
Jailbreaking is done on top of the stock operating system, not replacing it, so it's not a comparable argument.
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Click to collapse
Its a large corporation trying to exert control over a device they've sold and have no legal right to try to control.
AUXRVIII said:
HTC have the right to not allow mods to the system because they provide a warranty on the device when it's sold. No they won't sift through users whose warranty has expired, resources would be better used elsewhere.
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Click to collapse
If that's the case, why do they make you invalidate your warranty to use HTC Unlock? And they can clearly see if a phone's been unlocked as we can't re-lock them. And it only takes common sense to see a manufacturing defect isn't caused by modifying software. There is nothing that justifies the way HTC are acting over this.
BarryH_GEG said:
The only way you could go after HTC is if they documented a feature as being available and then didn't provide it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How so?
BarryH_GEG said:
"S-Off" isn't a feature, it's part of the phones infrastructure as HTC ships it. Nothing is compromised in the use of the phone as it's shipped whether it's S-off or S-on so you're not being deprived of anything HTC intended to provide.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Something is compromised, my ability to modify my phone in the way I want to.
BarryH_GEG said:
In others words, based on the way HTC describes the phone, you've gotten what you paid for so there's no "harm" to justify a lawsuit. I'm not defending HTC's choice, but it's their choice to make. The simple solution is to not buy their phones.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So by what you say there, you think HTC has a right to prevent me doing what I like to the phone I own? To me, that's like saying Ford has the right to stop me changing the wheels on my car.
gwuhua1984 said:
I don't see the point of taking HTC to court. The comparison of Apple and HTC doesn't make sense. Apple doesn't want you to jailbreak period, while HTC is more open. To me, HTC s-on for a reason, if the users know they're doing, and gets s-off then good for them. Not like HTC will call you or send you a note that you'll get sued for getting s-off on your device.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The comparison of Apple and HTC is very valid. They're both trying to exert control over hardware they've sold when they have no right to do so. A fact proven by the Apple case.
gwuhua1984 said:
Just wait patiently for xmoo and Football to find the way to s-off, they are making good progress anyways.
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Click to collapse
My point is, we shouldn't have to wait for some enterprising users to break bast HTC's deliberate locking down of our phones. Especially if they provide the unlock option.
All I'm seeing in this thread is people saying things like "I'm not defending HTC but..." or "Why bother fighting for your rights..." etc.
Well, I think we should fight for what we want instead of rolling over and taking it.
The reason HTC, Apple et al all do these things is because they get away with them through apathy like has been shown in this thread, it makes me sad.
A stance has to be taken by a manufacturer of a product regardless of what it is, this sort of thing is not only restricted to mobile devices. If a company like HTC sets it conditions of use under warranty and consumers challenge them, then the company cops negative publicity regardless of the result, so its alway a no win situation. If you feel HTC are wrong in what they are doing then get a job there and change it or start up your own company and see if you want to risk your intellectual property.
Sent from my HTC One X using xda app-developers app
airchie said:
All I'm seeing in this thread is people saying things like "I'm not defending HTC but..." or "Why bother fighting for your rights..." etc.
Well, I think we should fight for what we want instead of rolling over and taking it.
The reason HTC, Apple et al all do these things is because they get away with them through apathy like has been shown in this thread, it makes me sad.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think any of us are thrilled with the absence of S-OFF. The thread is about whether or not it's worth taking HTC to court over it, and my answer to that is 'no'. I don't have the money, I don't have the time, and I probably won't stand a chance because as has been pointed out repeatedly now a company is only obligated to provide the features they specified it'd include.
I often buy expensive sound equipment. Sometimes I like to replace parts with custom hardware, but with some equipment this isn't possible due to proprietary parts being used, or things not being feasibly removable. Could I take the manufacturer's to court over this? Well, yes. Would I win? Doubtful. They've provided me exactly what they advertised, the fact I can't do extra tinkering with it isn't their problem. And if I want to do it badly enough I'll probably figure it out (and void my warranty in the process so they don't have to deal with my screw-up).
As you feel so strongly about it, why don't you take the stand and go get a lawsuit rolling? I'm sure you'll get people to sign any petitions or whatever. Unfortunately I doubt many of us have the financial resources to commit to it too. :good:
LOL
For every response suggesting that OP cannot/ should not sue HTC, he has simply come up w an argument rebutting it. I'd like to see he goes ahead and does it and gets any result out of it. Is the outcome desirable for you all? Perhaps yes. But is there a practical mechanism to achieve that goal via litigation? I'd say not. But if OP doesnt trust the opinions offered, why bother posting something on here at all? Overall if you're serious about courts actions you should be talking to a lawyer not asking people's opinions on the internet.
I think youd have more success sueing them for charging for build defect repairs just because the phone is unlocked.
Sent from my HTC One X using xda premium
Related
HTC have the audacity to say, "Your Phone" and we all know this isn't true and we have all taken time to vent our fury on here at one time or another.
Now you have the opportunity to make them pay for being so sarcastically smug and give them both barrels.
I have posted under my username on here so even if you don't want to write an exhaustive response feel free to just add on your support there.
Link here: http://blog.htc.com/2012/04/your-phone-your-thoughts-tell-us-what-you-think/
Looks like HTC didn't like the link to my faulty phone so they removed it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMBLUqG1QZg
Lol the blog comments are all complaints about HTC. Deserved of course, but will HTC do anything about it? They must if they want to remain a contender to Samsung & Apple
In all fairness how are you guys liking the HOX?, I just sold my Evo 3D this week (should have sold it months ago and get more for it). It wasn't without fault nor was it crappy.. I'm really thinking hard should I get another HTC, why support this company?.. Anyhow, I'm thinking the Samsung s3 is for me, as for looks who cares, I dont want to bang my phone and it'll be in a case so the looks part is moot.
Added a link to my signature. Hopefully it will get a few more people. HTC can't ignore us forever.
If you get a flawless hox, you will love it. There's just so many ones with faults that it's tarnishing it's reputation
Oh man its like a flame fest on that comments section! If htc dont notice that, then theyve just lost the plot. :L
Sent from my GT-I9100 using xda premium
Got my 3rd one now. It's faulty too. And on Vodafone Germany I can change to another device now... I just want this thing workin because I like it soo much. Had the sensation and desire before. But its hard to hold on with all that things. I want soff to use my phone like I want it.. got to make a decision... :screwy:
Sent from my HTC One X using XDA
HTC's voiding people's warranty strikes me as way for them to reduce their warranty expenses by singling out a specific subset of users. The problem with these types of policies is that, if not challenged, they begin to creep. So while its people with unlocked bootloaders today, tomorrow it could be refusing to repair defective internal parts because HTC unilaterally decides that scuffs on the exterior of the device mean you dropped it. Give them an inch, they'll take a mile. This concerns all of us at HTC’s mercy for warranty repairs to a degree.
I've loved my Desire and Desire HD and I do have a faultless H1X but I still believe their attitude is beyond the pale. I took up my contract renewal when this was released because I was impressed with what I saw when playing with them in stores. I however was expecting to use it like my DHD and heard people when unlocking DHD's getting to do most of what I did with the ENG HBoot I had on mine.
Alas they've stripped back the usefulness of htcdev bootloader unlock and then decided to renege on the warranty.
It just stinks. I'd not have a problem either if it looked like an exploit was on the horizon but even with the bounty there has been very little in the way of public dev support from outside of the existing thread for S-Off because they now know the device is a PITA and they've avoided it. We are left to twiddle our thumbs and start learning to code this ***** ourselves which will only prolong the timescale of an ETA. It says a lot when the likes of Paul O'Brien are publicly announcing they prefer the One XL S4 over the Tegra 3 One X.
@ BarryH_GEG Can I ask if you are happy with the S-Off issue? Are you happy losing warranty support for hardware issues using the bootloader unlock? Do you even have a custom ROM installed?
Sent from my HTC One X using xda premium
wow people are really going for it on that blog site..good for them i say
SB13X said:
@ BarryH_GEG Can I ask if you are happy with the S-Off issue? Are you happy losing warranty support for hardware issues using the bootloader unlock? Do you even have a custom ROM installed?
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My bad. But re-read your original post. There's nothing in it or the title that says that what you're pissed at is the S-Off issue. I had to stop flashing custom ROMs because it f-d up my phone(s) when registering on foriegn networks while roaming (I travel a lot). But yes, I think the policy of completely voiding your h/w warranty because of third party s/w is wrong. Do I think that you spamming them is it going to change anything? No. They just started this with the One's and I think the change in application of their policy is because since it was originally published both Asus and Motorla took harder stances then HTC did. So fight the good fight, I hope you win (sincerely).
P.S. - I posted the below on their blog as an apology...
I can understand HTC wanting to protect themselves from user induced damage. But the One X has a number of quite common physical issues that clearly wouldn't be impacted by s/w. Why would HTC want to refuse repair (other than reducing expesnse) to cover an issue clearly and solely within its control?
Wow I don't think I saw a single positive post
Sent from my HTC One X using xda premium
People are rape training that and should be. A lot of good comments on there
Sent from my HTC Desire using XDA
Needs to be put up on xda portal
Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2
That site won't stay online for long. Some kind of technical issue will occur I'm sure...
What do I think? Great phone, **** support.
Sent from my HTC One X using xda premium
LOL. you're probably right!
Comments left; keep them coming people
Maybe it won't do any good, but the only reason we even got HTCDev unlocking was sustained pressure / outcry from users, so the more noise the more chance they might do something (even if it is just to tell us to F-OFF).
Ripley said:
If you get a flawless hox, you will love it. There's just so many ones with faults that it's tarnishing it's reputation
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Click to collapse
The problem for me are the design flaws, not the manufacturing errors...
Badly matched battery size, lack of expandable SD support, and no USB OTG (host) support (plus buggy internal storage to top it off!) make me wish I had bought from a more reputable dealer
Now I'm stuck looking at whether I can re-sell and make enough to still afford a better phone, or if I should just suck it up and stick with a less than ideal device.
Of course, that's what you get when you buy on impulse My fault for not doing my research Next time won't be fooled by the HTC branding though.
love evo!
Ya ya HTC is getting uppity, but I love my EVO 4G and my 3d. My 3d has been flawless for me. Fastest phone I've ever had.
my phone got problem and i need to send warranty:crying:
question is i unlocked to phone already, so my warranty is deny already:angel:
so.....can i lock it back?i mean lock not relock
and buy it in malaysia.
which hero can save me
demonzai said:
my phone got problem and i need to send warranty:crying:
question is i unlocked to phone already, so my warranty is deny already:angel:
so.....can i lock it back?i mean lock not relock
and buy it in malaysia.
which hero can save me
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry but you cant. HTC will see if its been relocked. Nevertheless HTC should still repair it if its hardware fault, not caused by software.
Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2
demonzai said:
my phone got problem and i need to send warranty:crying:
question is i unlocked to phone already, so my warranty is deny already:angel:
so.....can i lock it back?i mean lock not relock
and buy it in malaysia.
which hero can save me
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can only relock,
What's the issue, you may be able to fix it yourself?
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
HTC will not reject a 'Relocked' bootloader, unless of course you've flashed a dodgy thing yourself and blown your phone up. However, if it's hardware/manufacturer fault, this is down to HTC themselves to fix - regardless of a unlocked/relocked bootloader
smidgeox said:
HTC will not reject a 'Relocked' bootloader, unless of course you've flashed a dodgy thing yourself and blown your phone up. However, if it's hardware/manufacturer fault, this is down to HTC themselves to fix - regardless of a unlocked/relocked bootloader
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is not necessarily true. Usually the responsibility lies with the retailer.
BenPope said:
This is not necessarily true. Usually the responsibility lies with the retailer.
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Click to collapse
Yeah, but the retailer then just sends it to HTC repair centres for repair or whatever needs doing to it. If you think for example 3UK, themselves are going to look at the phone, you're simply deluding yourself. In all the cases I've read about its HTC which honour warranty but of course I could be wrong, I'd rather not argue over warranties though :what:
Sent from my now amazing HTC One X thanks to TeamVenoms ViperX rom
smidgeox said:
Yeah, but the retailer then just sends it to HTC repair centres for repair or whatever needs doing to it. If you think for example 3UK, themselves are going to look at the phone, you're simply deluding yourself. In all the cases I've read about its HTC which honour warranty but of course I could be wrong, I'd rather not argue over warranties though :what:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I never said it wouldn't be HTC that ultimately fork out for the repair work.
My point was that under consumer law, at least in the UK, the retailer (or credit company if purchased on credit) is responsible for ensuring your device is fit for purpose and free from defects.
The bigger point is that if HTC decide to cancel the warranty (which they are allowed to do), it fairly meaningless as the retailer is still responsible to uphold your statutory consumer rights.
BenPope said:
I never said it wouldn't be HTC that ultimately fork out for the repair work.
My point was that under consumer law, at least in the UK, the retailer (or credit company if purchased on credit) is responsible for ensuring your device is fit for purpose and free from defects.
The bigger point is that if HTC decide to cancel the warranty (which they are allowed to do), it fairly meaningless as the retailer is still responsible to uphold your statutory consumer rights.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So, after clearly stating i didn't want to argue about warranties, you feel the need to attempt to belittle me with reference to a statute...
We were clearly explaining two VERY different arguments, thus what's the point?
Also, as far as i know, HTC are the warranty (or guarantee) provider (don't quote me..) YES & reserve the right to not honor the warranty (providing you've breached your side of the warranty/contract/guarantee and that specific warranty clause relates to your specific defect/error i.e dead pixel etc), otherwise they've NO legal right to not offer a free replacement or repair - regardless of an unlocked/relocked bootloader, that part of the warranty/guarantee isn't relevant.
Having said that, i'm not arguing with your point that the 'retailer/trader' are STILL partly responsible... however, if it's a fault by the manufacturer... we both understand who's liable there.
I just think the point of this post has drifted and we were clearly on about different steps and procedures along the replacement/repair process.
Thanks alot for reply my post
i decided to try send warranty if cannot than i will send for repair
demonzai said:
Thanks alot for reply my post
i decided to try send warranty if cannot than i will send for repair
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What is wrong with the phone???
Sent from my Fauxinated, Viperized One X
smidgeox said:
So, after clearly stating i didn't want to argue about warranties, you feel the need to attempt to belittle me with reference to a statute...
We were clearly explaining two VERY different arguments, thus what's the point?
Also, as far as i know, HTC are the warranty (or guarantee) provider (don't quote me..) YES & reserve the right to not honor the warranty (providing you've breached your side of the warranty/contract/guarantee and that specific warranty clause relates to your specific defect/error i.e dead pixel etc), otherwise they've NO legal right to not offer a free replacement or repair - regardless of an unlocked/relocked bootloader, that part of the warranty/guarantee isn't relevant.
Having said that, i'm not arguing with your point that the 'retailer/trader' are STILL partly responsible... however, if it's a fault by the manufacturer... we both understand who's liable there.
I just think the point of this post has drifted and we were clearly on about different steps and procedures along the replacement/repair process.
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Click to collapse
It's not personal, I'm not trying to belittle you, I'm just stating the facts, for the UK at least. There is a lot of misunderstanding in this area, and posting incorrect or misleading info doesn't help.
The FACT is that in the UK, HTC have no legal obligation to talk to you, unless you purchased it from them. So, no, we do not both understand who is liable. You seem to misunderstand.
If you don't want to argue the point, you don't have to, I'm not forcibly moving your fingers. You are welcome to publicly disagree with me, but that won't make you any more right.
BenPope said:
It's not personal, I'm not trying to belittle you, I'm just stating the facts, for the UK at least. There is a lot of misunderstanding in this area, and posting incorrect or misleading info doesn't help.
The FACT is that in the UK, HTC have no legal obligation to talk to you, unless you purchased it from them. So, no, we do not both understand who is liable. You seem to misunderstand.
If you don't want to argue the point, you don't have to, I'm not forcibly moving your fingers. You are welcome to publicly disagree with me, but that won't make you any more right.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
HTC, as the manufacturer/producer (Whether purchased third party etc...or not) DO have a legal obligation to speak to you about defects with your device (For example... dead pixel, 'death-grip' etc), these are known as manufacturers fault or defects... for a reason. I believe the Consumer Protection Act 1987 & The Sale of Goods Act 1979 are both rather relevant.
Considering... i LIVE in the UK, i think I've acquired a decent amount of knowledge regarding our Laws (especially civil), like i said, i could be wrong - i never stated i was 100%, but of course there always has to be one person who tries to belittle me
So, before we start pointing fingers, saying i'm posting incorrect information, maybe you should look at your points first
Now, i suggest we keep to the point which the OP posted, as that was the whole point - like i said, i was arguing about a totally different thing to you, but you had to spark off a debate about statues, tort and policies.
If you'd like to continue our argument, please feel free to open a post somewhere or PM me, for now, i personally conclude the argument closed
Well I lived in the UK for 30 years, but that also doesn't make me right. However, the first 4 links I found with google tend to agree with me.
http://www.consumerrightsexpert.co.uk/shop-manufacturer-responsible-for-faulty-goods.html
http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rig...erstanding-the-sale-of-goods-act/your-rights/
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/consumer-rights-refunds-exchange#know
http://whatconsumer.co.uk/shops-responsibility/
BenPope said:
Well I lived in the UK for 30 years, but that also doesn't make me right. However, the first 4 links I found with google tend to agree with me.
http://www.consumerrightsexpert.co.uk/shop-manufacturer-responsible-for-faulty-goods.html
http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rig...erstanding-the-sale-of-goods-act/your-rights/
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/consumer-rights-refunds-exchange#know
http://whatconsumer.co.uk/shops-responsibility/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're so ignorant - I've said i'd rather end this argument here and yet you continue :laugh:
You're misunderstanding my part of the argument, you think i'm disregarding your argument, when really i'm just arguing about a different part of the warranty process. READ how the argument started and what was said after that and you'd understand, all i said was HTC deal with the repair/replacement and warranty.
I never said the shop wasn't party responsible.
So, whatever you reply after this, i'm just going to ignore, you're to ignorant to listen to others arguments, you've totally blown this forum post out of proportion and purpose and finally, you've totally misunderstood my argument - that htc, or a htc repair centre, will be the ones to look at the bootloader, not the retailer.
The retailer is not "partly" responsible, they are wholly responsible. Responsible and doing the work are different things.
Maybe we have different ideas about what you meant by "down to HTC" to fix. But regardless, unlocking the bootloader breaks the terms of their warranty, they ARE within their right to refuse to honour it (well, technically, the OP invalidated it), and they are under no legal obligation to talk to the OP, he is not their customer.
Instead, if he wants his phone fixed, visit the retailer, as they are legally obliged to help. Edit: mea culpa, he's not in the UK. :screwy:
Anyway, I'm sorry that you think that your inability to admit your misunderstanding is my ignorance.
So I have a couple general questions I wanted to get your guys take on.
Why does Verizon choose to have there phones locked down? The HTC One in particular but generally as well. Is it a method of preserving/increasing profit? Perceived threat to their network? Something else?
A follow up question which depends on how you feel about the first question. Are Verizon's reasons for locking down phones justified? Do you feel they have a right to do this? If you were a strictly moral person, do you have any dilemmas about this?
PS As a side note, I love having my phones unlocked with custom roms, and I am looking forward to getting my sonic S-Off back.
beardedYoga said:
So I have a couple general questions I wanted to get your guys take on.
Why does Verizon choose to have there phones locked down? The HTC One in particular but generally as well. Is it a method of preserving/increasing profit? Perceived threat to their network? Something else?
A follow up question which depends on how you feel about the first question. Are Verizon's reasons for locking down phones justified? Do you feel they have a right to do this? If you were a strictly moral person, do you have any dilemmas about this?
PS As a side note, I love having my phones unlocked with custom roms, and I am looking forward to getting my sonic S-Off back.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
People screwing up their phones by crack flashing, and returning them to verizon for warranty when bricked.
Control of tethering.
Yeah, they say it's for the reasons above.
But given that, to begin with, the rooting community is a tiny slice of all mobile phone users, and then Verizon users are an even smaller portion of that. So I don't see why they even care. I highly doubt that even if ever single Verizon customer who does rooting messed up their expensive device it would cost Verizon more than .01% of their revenue, if even that.
It's all about quality control. Even if it is the fact that the vast minority root their phones, it's the minority of users who generate the majority of complaints (and that rule extends FAR beyond cell phone rooting, or cell phones in general). It takes 10 good comments to make up for one bad comment these days, and there just aren't enough good comments to go around.
How likely is it, if your unrooted phone has no physical damage that you'll suddenly find that it isn't booting up? How likely is it that, even if you don't want to do it, factory resetting your unrooted phone will fix whatever problem you're having?
Big Red's reputation, their entire brand, is built on reliability. NOT freedom.
beardedYoga said:
So I have a couple general questions I wanted to get your guys take on.
Why does Verizon choose to have there phones locked down? The HTC One in particular but generally as well. Is it a method of preserving/increasing profit? Perceived threat to their network? Something else?
A follow up question which depends on how you feel about the first question. Are Verizon's reasons for locking down phones justified? Do you feel they have a right to do this? If you were a strictly moral person, do you have any dilemmas about this?
PS As a side note, I love having my phones unlocked with custom roms, and I am looking forward to getting my sonic S-Off back.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey guys feel free to elaborate as much as possible. I'm writing a term paper on unlocking bootloaders/s-off, legalities on our part and Verizon, security risk for us/Carrier, risks taken by us/Verizon, etc.. It's for a Information Security Course. I'll be creating a thread at some point but this is a good start for some sources!
Another point would be that Verizon tries to cater to business/enterprise customers so allowing bootloader unlocking could pose a giant security flaw on devices that have classified data and are meant to be secure
Sent from my One using xda app-developers app
I think it's far less about tethering for free. They fixed that with getting rid of unlimited data. They saw they can make more money on teired data plans with coverages. Plus I am amazed at how many people on here has given up on their unlimited data plans just to get a subsidized phone.
Locked down phones is for more like people who roots and doesn't know what they are doing so they brick their phones and Verizon takes a hit having to replace it under warranty. Plus the security reasons companies are looking for. They don't want a phone that could be hacked in to giving away possible secret info. Last but not least is to keep people from taking their phones and flashing it to another carrier as we seen a few people has done on here and other forums. It's money they are not receiving and they want to put a stop to it.
Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk 4
I think they do it for tethering. Although you can use foxfi, root tethering is not stoppable unless verizon uses packet sniffing but even so, unlimited data is unlimited data. They also do it for security reasons as unlocking a corporate phone can be bad.
I will admit, I skimmed all posts and see that most everyone has bought into what they want us to believe.
If it is to prevent unwanted warranty claims, then why would they not allow us to willingly void our warranty via HTCdev when we click the box that says so?
Rather then resort to undocumented or traceable ways of doing so in which case they are stuck with more returns for soft bricks, etc,..and are stuck accepting them because they chose to not take the easy way and let us void our warranty to begin with.
I just think all that warranty replacement crap is a bunch of nonsense and can't be their main incentive.
If it is, then they have their heads buried deeper then I thought and need to realize what I just stated above...
A really good friend of mine has been a tech with sprint for nearly a decade. From what he has told me, about 27 of 100 phones they can't fix are due to installing non official software. While that's not the highest percentage with damage as the worst, it still is very costly for them to replace. Most of the guys he works with can tell if a phone has been "tampered" with. Even with such things as triangle away with the Samsung lines, they still can find out. Having a locked boot loader on this phone is just one way of attempting to slow the numbers.
As he would put it, most people who do try flashing and other modification methods have very little experience with the phones and their inner workings. A lot of these people end up bricking their phones and try turning them in for insurance claims or warranty which he deals with. He actually saved me some coin by getting me a screen for one of my s2's from a completely fried emmc that he says someone tried a bad flash with.
But yeah, keeping the people like that out of the phones is one of the major reasons as it can become costly to them... I call bs though, considering the amount of profit they actually make on each one of our accounts.
Sent from my One in Blue!
You are exactly right.
To be honest, there isn't much of a business case for a carrier, when serving as the reseller of a phone, to offer the freedom of an unlocked boot loader. The savvy of the general populace hasn't yet reached the point where the downside is offset by a marketable upside. Hell, most folks still **** around happily with iPhones which lack any freedom whatsoever.
TidusWulf said:
It's all about quality control. Even if it is the fact that the vast minority root their phones, it's the minority of users who generate the majority of complaints (and that rule extends FAR beyond cell phone rooting, or cell phones in general). It takes 10 good comments to make up for one bad comment these days, and there just aren't enough good comments to go around.
How likely is it, if your unrooted phone has no physical damage that you'll suddenly find that it isn't booting up? How likely is it that, even if you don't want to do it, factory resetting your unrooted phone will fix whatever problem you're having?
Big Red's reputation, their entire brand, is built on reliability. NOT freedom.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
We can speculate all we want here. Verizon says they lock phones because it's better for the network.
http://bgr.com/2012/03/02/verizon-explains-locked-bootloader-stance-in-letter-to-fcc/
Whether or not anyone chooses to believe that is a matter of opinion, but this is pretty much as close to an answer from Verizon that we'll ever get.
Sent from my HTC One.
Very enlightening.
To comment on wanting the phones to be secure for corporate security... wouldn't the amazing track record of dev's who contribute here and other places sort of fly right in the face of that.
It seems that every single device that gains enough users has some kind of workaround or vulnerability to allow it to be unlocked. If the corporate world was worried about it, all they are doing is showing just how unable to lock it down the manufactures and carriers are.
Blah, blah, blah.... the network. that is just their excuse. They used it with the FTC to get by with rate limiting the LTE network. Some lame a$$ excuse about the CDMA legacy junk. Don't get me wrong I am sure that the old CDMA stuff may make the network less predictable, but not less stable. It is all about money, and VZW is the 800 pound gorilla that get to control what we have to deal with. Thank goodness we have talented and dedicated developers that almost always get around the blockades these fools put in place.
+1
Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk now Free
From what I was told over at elevate, the biggest problem they don't want to expierence again is our phones not being able to dial to the correct 911 dispatch. There apparently was an incident where a rooting user had a modified dialer apk that didn't allow him dial to the correct dispatch. In an emergency for Verizon that is worse case scenario. Then there's a lawsuit that might be filed to both HTC and Verizon.
CNexus said:
Yeah, they say it's for the reasons above.
But given that, to begin with, the rooting community is a tiny slice of all mobile phone users, and then Verizon users are an even smaller portion of that. So I don't see why they even care. I highly doubt that even if ever single Verizon customer who does rooting messed up their expensive device it would cost Verizon more than .01% of their revenue, if even that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Gotta disagree. When you see people in this forum bragging about getting seven replacements, it does add up.
And it really is a PITA to figure out if it was user error or something wrong with the phone. It's all about risk mgmt
Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk 4
Hi i sold a HOX in the UK for some reason his sim card wouldn't work in it but he was happy to buy it and take it away
My Ad
Hi up for sale is my HTC one X 32GB in black and is in good condition
It is unlocked to any network
Comes with Charger, Usb Cable and is Boxed
Thxs
Ive just received a email saying he would like a refund because he cannot get the sim working and that it is rooted
So i emailed him back saying i had bought another phone which i have and wouldn't be able to offer a refund
Then i recieved a email back saying
But you've advertised the phone falsely, you never mentioned in your ad that it it wasn't running on its original android software. If you're refusing to give me a refund I'll have no other choice but to get in contact with gumtree or failing that CAB/Small claims court. Had you been honest in the original advertisement we wouldnt be having this problem
Did i have to state in the ad that it was rooted?
Any advice would be great
Thxs
bornnslippy said:
Hi i sold a HOX in the UK for some reason his sim card wouldn't work in it but he was happy to buy it and take it away
My Ad
Hi up for sale is my HTC one X 32GB in black and is in good condition
It is unlocked to any network
Comes with Charger, Usb Cable and is Boxed
Thxs
Ive just received a email saying he would like a refund because he cannot get the sim working and that it is rooted
So i emailed him back saying i had bought another phone which i have and wouldn't be able to offer a refund
Then i recieved a email back saying
But you've advertised the phone falsely, you never mentioned in your ad that it it wasn't running on its original android software. If you're refusing to give me a refund I'll have no other choice but to get in contact with gumtree or failing that CAB/Small claims court. Had you been honest in the original advertisement we wouldnt be having this problem
Did i have to state in the ad that it was rooted?
Any advice would be great
Thxs
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If i was going to sell my phone on Ebay i'd put it on stock rom, but if i was going to keep current custom rom i would specify that it is rooted, but being rooted shouldn't effect different carriers if it's already network unlocked
i would ask him why it's so bad that it is rooted...or what the problem of a rooted system is...if he only want a refund because of the rooted rom you can help him to get back to completely stock...i still don't get why many ppl are so strange and mad if it comes to rooting -.-
Well the way i see it he has a point, i don't think it's all about running the stock rom or not but about what's written in the add. And my opinion is that you should have stated in the add that it was custom rommed/rooted so he could act on it. Not saying it's a false deal.....rather incomplete and at that point he is actually right. It's all a bit black & white, but to answer your question : if he plays this up he has a point and probably win. It's about expectations, he thinks he is buying a stock hox but in the end it is not and that's not written anywhere. I would offer him to help him to get it back to stock and see if he takes up on that offer ?
Cheers.
Mr Hofs said:
Well the way i see it he has a point, i don't think it's all about running the stock rom or not but about what's written in the add. And my opinion is that you should have stated in the add that it was custom rommed/rooted so he could act on it. Not saying it's a false deal.....rather incomplete and at that point he is actually right. It's all a bit black & white, but to answer your question : if he plays this up he has a point and probably win. It's about expectations, he thinks he is buying a stock hox but in the end it is not and that's not written anywhere. I would offer him to help him to get it back to stock and see if he takes up on that offer ?
Cheers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1
Ok thxs for your replies I will offer to put it back to factory for him and see what he says
Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk
bornnslippy said:
Ok thxs for your replies I will offer to put it back to factory for him and see what he says
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you are a private seller and have sold the device to someone who came and looked at it before paying then he has very little recourse.
I recommend that you have a standard receipt which says "sold as seen" and get the buyer to sign it.
t-bon3 said:
If you are a private seller and have sold the device to someone who came and looked at it before paying then he has very little recourse.
I recommend that you have a standard receipt which says "sold as seen" and get the buyer to sign it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What i make of the OP the buyer didn't see it and only saw the add, in that case the buyer is stronger.
The buyer collected the phone tested it out etc and was happy with it
He was also OK with the fact that his sim card didn't seem to get a signal
Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk
bornnslippy said:
The buyer collected the phone tested it out etc and was happy with it
He was also OK with the fact that his sim card didn't seem to get a signal
Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Lets say i buy a car from you. I see that the left headlight is damaged. We agree ok i saw everything else good? Good. I drive away and the rear axel falls of. So it is my fault that i didnt saw what you didnt tell me? Even if he said it is ok that is rooted your ad did not say it. Imagine who will win... Or did you say that it does not have a warranty anymore? You didnt also... I would be pissed at you really
I noted your username to be sure to never buy anything from you...
Sent from my One X using Tapatalk
and313 said:
I noted your username to be sure to never buy anything from you...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
:laugh: I'm certain he'll be deeply disturbed and upset over your remark.
Build a bridge and get over it, the phone was returned to stock rom,it's a used phone and most used phones don't have or come with any implied warranty.
maxilick said:
:laugh: I'm certain he'll be deeply disturbed and upset over your remark.
Build a bridge and get over it, the phone was returned to stock rom,it's a used phone and most used phones don't have or come with any implied warranty.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Every phone has a 2 year warranty. If you do something to void the warranty you need to tell the buyer. Im sure the buyer wanted to send it back for repairs
Sent from my One X using Tapatalk
Relax peeps, he is here for help and obvious learned about this situation. No need to bash his mistake.
Just my 2 cents, backed up with a little consumer law.
If this was an online only transaction where the item description is the only was of determining an items state, then yes you have every right to complain and request a refund. And in all likelihood if you were take to a small claims court they would probably reach that conclusion.
But, as the buyer collected from you, the onus on inspecting the item pre-sale is his. If you deliberately withheld information, he could argue that. But, if you sold the item and demonstrated it in good faith the buyer would have no recourse. "Sold as Seen" would apply here, as the buyer physically saw it and could inspect it pre-sale.
Unlocking via HTC-Dev does not void the warranty. Nor does rooting. The warranty applies to the hardware only. (See section 4)
And @and313 yes, here in the UK if you buy a car from a private individual, not a garage or main dealer, and something falls off / breaks after you've bought it, its your responsibility.
"Private sales
When you buy a used vehicle from a private individual, you don't have the same rights as you do when buying from a trader. The legal principle of caveat emptor, or 'buyer beware' operates. You have no right to expect that the vehicle is of satisfactory quality or fit for its purpose, but there is a requirement that it should be 'as described'. For example, if an advertisement says 'low mileage, one previous owner', it must be correct. You should check the vehicle thoroughly before you buy it."
- Trading Standards
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
@bornnslippy - IMO you have nothing to worry about, like you're doing, I would assist the buyer like any decent person would. But the threat of being taken to a small claims court is just that, a threat.
Look, very nice and all but a honest seller tells you what there needs to be said about the selled item so if you want to hide behind paper well do it. But i am adding you @Andyto the list also
Sorry for misunderstanding the thread. I thought we were discussing what is right or wrong here
Sent from my One X using Tapatalk
and313 said:
Look, very nice and all but a honest seller tells you what there needs to be said about the selled item so if you want to hide behind paper well do it. But i am adding you @Andyto the list also
Sorry for misunderstanding the thread. I thought we were discussing what is right or wrong here
Sent from my One X using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm sure @bornnslippy would have if asked. As with 99% of any private sales it is up to the buyer to inspect/question and agree to the sale.
No need to apologize, right & wrong are very different from legal & illegal. And is it appears nothing, illegal (UK) has happened. It's a civil matter anyway, hence the small claims court. I tend to keep all my old devices. Still have my HTC Kaiser, Hero & Desire HD
Andy said:
I'm sure @bornnslippy would have if asked. As with 99% of any private sales it is up to the buyer to inspect/question and agree to the sale.
No need to apologize, right & wrong are very different from legal & illegal. And is it appears nothing, illegal (UK) has happened. It's a civil matter anyway, hence the small claims court. I tend to keep all my old devices. Still have my HTC Kaiser, Hero & Desire HD
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agree to that. Its just sad that people are taking advantage from such a system and then still use the system against the ones who just didnt know and expected something else. Sad sad world
Sent from my One X using Tapatalk
Hi Guy thanks for the replies
The guy who bought it never once asked if it was rooted or anything like that
If he had asked i would have told him no need to lie
If i sell a phone in the future i will put back to stock or ask if they wanted rooted
bornnslippy said:
Hi Guy thanks for the replies
The guy who bought it never once asked if it was rooted or anything like that
If he had asked i would have told him no need to lie
If i sell a phone in the future i will put back to stock or ask if they wanted rooted
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
He wouldnt have a leg to stand on... If you say it was through Gumtree its a placeholder for ads not a governing body. They wouldn't do anything and a small claims court wouldn't touch it either. Its a private item being sold second hand. Even without a receipt you could claim ignorance and say you've never seen the phone before. Who's to say your lying??? Without evidence it wont stand up in court and so i wouldnt worry. Move on and forget it. Or email back saying good luck, I look forward to hearing from you, my solicitor will be in touch! always a stern bullyboy tactic that can work both ways
Hey guys, first. Thank you for visiting the post and bring a little valuable knowledge.
I have a HTC ONE M7 VERIZON - currently ROOT with WeakSauce2
There is a way to get free S-OFF - other than SUNSHINE ...
android version 4.4.3 - attached screenshot so you can see the version of software.
Not possible in the current version, there is a way back to the factory system?
Thank You.
Only way to downgrade is to have s-off. For version 5.28.605.2 the only way to get unlocked and s-off is Sunshine, or pay for someone with a java card to s-off.
Sent from my HTC6500LVW using XDA Free mobile app
s off
Oh my god
I want s-off freeeeeee
29y6145 said:
Oh my god
I want s-off freeeeeee
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And I want a free car, neither one is gonna happen. [emoji5]
It is a bit ridiculous that they're taking advantage of the situation though. Verizon shouldn't be allowed to lock phones down so thoroughly that a phone model that specifically is supposed to be supported by the company's own official "developer program" is actually locked out as it is. These people are taking advantage of the fact that Verizon has done this to make quite a lot of cash. And if you have to get a different phone or something, you can't just "uninstall Sunshine" or something and reuse it. Nope. You get to buy it again. They don't even license it to one person, it's only licensed to one specific device. Simply put, they're taking advantage of everyone and getting away with it to make quite a lot of money on the process and everyone seems to be ok with that.
Now don't get me wrong here. I am not saying they shouldn't be allowed to make money. I'm sure they did a decent amount of work to find and utilize the new exploit(s) they are using and not sharing. To some extent, yeah, they should get money. Though I'm not convinced that donations alone wouldn't have been quite sufficient to more than cover their time and efforts with some small profit along the way (there are a lot of M7 users stuck with Verizon after all plus there can be advantages to Sunshine even when not on Verizon) I'll allow that they've a right to ask for money for this is general. My problem is the fact that they do that one device only for $25. That's a lot of money to run an exploit on a device one time and never again. A one user license for $25 would be a lot more fair and reasonable at least, but really I can't see why it shouldn't be more on the order of $5 or so anyway. Heck, let's say $10. But $25? They have us backed in a corner and they know it.
Nazo said:
It is a bit ridiculous that they're taking advantage of the situation though. Verizon shouldn't be allowed to lock phones down so thoroughly that a phone model that specifically is supposed to be supported by the company's own official "developer program" is actually locked out as it is. These people are taking advantage of the fact that Verizon has done this to make quite a lot of cash. And if you have to get a different phone or something, you can't just "uninstall Sunshine" or something and reuse it. Nope. You get to buy it again. They don't even license it to one person, it's only licensed to one specific device. Simply put, they're taking advantage of everyone and getting away with it to make quite a lot of money on the process and everyone seems to be ok with that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But wait - - someone did a sh--load of work at the risk of nice phones to create an optional work-around to allow tinkerers to play with their phones.
Why shouldn't the guys who figured out what we can't figure out be paid ??????????
I tried to get you preemptively on that. Read my edit. Sorry, it took a bit before I realized someone was going to think I was saying they shouldn't get paid at all. Simply put, I'm not against them profiting at all. I'm against the way they're taking advantage of people. I do stick to my statement that donations alone would have been sufficient though. There are a lot of people who would have been really grateful for the exploits if posted and would have donated if they asked nicely (and maybe even if they didn't ask...)
Nazo said:
I tried to get you preemptively on that. Read my edit. Sorry, it took a bit before I realized someone was going to think I was saying they shouldn't get paid at all. Simply put, I'm not against them profiting at all. I'm against the way they're taking advantage of people. I do stick to my statement that donations alone would have been sufficient though. There are a lot of people who would have been really grateful for the exploits if posted and would have donated if they asked nicely (and maybe even if they didn't ask...)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
"These people" don't give a crap about what you or what Verizon does.
There is no HTC or dev program that allows you to s-off your device.
Nobody is taking advantage of you, they are offering you a service.
Either accept their service and pay what they ask for it, or don't.
But please stop this self entitled attitude that gets us nowhere and causes the few exploits and devs that make them to disappear completely.
Don't like it? Buy yourself a Java card for a few hundred bucks, or an iPhone.
If folks like these guys didn't go through burning up devices for our benefit, you would have zero options.
If they depend on the general public to be generous with donations, when giving it away for free, they would be sadly disappointed, trust me on this one...it happens a lot less then you might imagine.
People nowadays are far too content to take whatever they can and if nobody makes them give back, they won't think twice about it.
So, I really suggest ending this now, as this won't end well for you and certainly won't change anything for the better.
Only effect it could possibly have is to jeopardize your xda membership, reputation, and potentially drive away the people who worked so hard on your only real available option for s-off.
See, this is what I don't get. People will defend this sort of thing fighting tooth and nail for them even to the point of flaming and insulting others. It's silly. Ultimately things like this being locked behind a pay wall hurts the community as a whole.
santod040 said:
"These people" don't give a crap about what you or what Verizon does.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Uhm... What?
There is no HTC or dev program that allows you to s-off your device.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm guessing you misunderstood what I was saying? I'm specifically referring to the official HTC developer program by which one can enter and get an unlock token to officially unlock their HTC devices: http://www.htcdev.com/bootloader/
Verizon is the only one that chooses to disallow its users from doing this and I'm only saying that this creates the situation being discussed. If, for example, there were no service in which one could not unlock their device via the official program and the only point of Sunshine was to avoid going through all that and to make it possible to effectively warranty voiding checks, then that alone might be a valid reason for it to cost. (And I personally am ok with going through the official HTC program and losing warranty officially. That was never the issue for me.)
Nobody is taking advantage of you, they are offering you a service.
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I think you didn't really understand what I was saying. Basically Verizon has created a situation where people have no choice but to use exploits when they shouldn't have to. This, in itself, is already a not OK situation, but there's not much we can do about it short of using a different service (and some of us need various things like a particular plan/area/whatever.) The people behind Sunshine found a new exploit that works on the latest stuff (and claim it's hardware and unpatchable.) Great. But, they don't release it to the public. They keep it locked away behind a pay wall (and I'm sure the exact workings of it are encrypted and etc so people can't just reverse engineer the software easily or something.) Not just a pay wall though. They charge quite a lot for a single device. Then they don't let a user use what they paid for again ever. Nope. You get to unlock one device and that's it. Hence "taking advantage." They know we're backed up against the wall.
Either except their service and pay what they ask for it, or don't.
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Exactly. They know you have no choice. Your argument for them is actually against them.
But please stop this self entitled attitude that gets us nowhere and causes the few exploits and devs that make them to disappear completely.
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Who said self-entitled? I didn't say they owe it to me or something. I said this is ultimately bad for the community and the community shouldn't be happy with it and that they shouldn't charge so much for it or limit it so much. This is more a business discussion if anything. They don't owe it to me or anything, but they are still taking advantage of the situation. Essentially, it's extortion.
Nazo said:
Uhm... What?
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Nazo said:
These people are taking advantage of the fact that Verizon has done this to make quite a lot of cash.
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Nazo said:
They don't owe it to me or anything
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Oh good, then you do understand.... :good:
Good luck to you.
Before this exploit, there was firewater, moonshine, rumrunner for certain aged HTC devices, two worked on this phone. These were made by the same team that did Sunshine. They never got the income back via donations to pay for the countless bricked phones getting the exploit to work (yes, this type of exploit permanently damaged their test phones at $700 a pop.) This is why they had to resort to charging since the donations didn't make the lost money back.
Before the exploits worked on our phones, we HAD to pool money together and have a trusted member keep the java card, and pay him shipping and a fragment of the cost of the card. He made no money off this service either.
Do not sully and degrade and berate the payment wall. You bought a Verizon phone. A carrier who HATES their "customers" rooting their phones. Call Verizon support and say your phone is rooted and see their response. If you wanted an HTC phone that does work with htcdev, buy a different variant, or get the last Verizon model that did work, the Rezound.
Sunshine was made with the idea to s-off already rooted phones, unlocking Verizon variants is a side effect they don't put on the priority list. If it happens, it happens.
Edit: quick math for you. Let's say they had 20 failed attempts... For ONE device, if all 20 bricked the phone, that is $14000 $25 is reasonable given how many devices it works for and how much was spent to get it to work.
Sent from my HTC6500LVW using XDA Free mobile app
Well I never heard any dev that locked their phones on failed attempts to find exploits. Doesn't that one dev that does the exploits work for HTC or Verizon and his job is to find these exploits? I guess I see nothing wrong with charging to get your phone unlocked and rooted. Maybe the price be a little less but I doubt he made a lot of money unlocking peoples phones. If you don't want to pay for having your phone unlocked then look at getting s nexus 6 off T-Mobile. Everything works on Verizon's network and you never have to worry about having a locked boot loader.
Dark Jedi said:
Well I never heard any dev that locked their phones on failed attempts to find exploits. Doesn't that one dev that does the exploits work for HTC or Verizon and his job is to find these exploits? I guess I see nothing wrong with charging to get your phone unlocked and rooted. Maybe the price be a little less but I doubt he made a lot of money unlocking peoples phones. If you don't want to pay for having your phone unlocked then look at getting s nexus 6 off T-Mobile. Everything works on Verizon's network and you never have to worry about having a locked boot loader.
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No, beaups nor jacase work for Verizon. They frequent the blackhat convention. Most exploits they do they either sell to the bug bounty or give to the community depending on certain factors. They are not on either company's payroll.
Sent from my HTC6500LVW using XDA Free mobile app
I could swear jcase worked for HTC from one of his older posts form years ago. Oh well guess I was wrong. Just glad I rooted my phone when I first got it before everyone had to start paying!
Dark Jedi said:
I could swear jcase worked for HTC from one of his older posts form years ago. Oh well guess I was wrong. Just glad I rooted my phone when I first got it before everyone had to start paying!
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Nope lol