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One of the main selling points of the Galaxy Nexus for me is NFC. Contactless payments are starting to pop up everywhere here in London, and when Apple releases an NFC-enabled phone I'm sure progress will be increased massively.
Anyways, my question is whether it is possible to use the NFC of the Nexus to scan my RFID building entry card, save the details as a profile and then emulate the card in order to get me into the building using just my phone?
Is there any software like this? Would it even be ethically sound to release such software?
From my understanding, this is possible. However, I would imagine the data on your building entry card would have some sort of encryption.
WhiterThanWhite said:
One of the main selling points of the Galaxy Nexus for me is NFC. Contactless payments are starting to pop up everywhere here in London, and when Apple releases an NFC-enabled phone I'm sure progress will be increased massively.
Anyways, my question is whether it is possible to use the NFC of the Nexus to scan my RFID building entry card, save the details as a profile and then emulate the card in order to get me into the building using just my phone?
Is there any software like this? Would it even be ethically sound to release such software?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Card emulation is not part of the SDK and not currently available.
Sent from my Nexus S using xda premium
Gutted. Would have been handy
Sent from my iPad 2 using Tapatalk
It's not possible for a very simple reason Nexus or any other NFC enabled phone cannot read a Visa PayWave or Mastercard PayPass card just like that. They are encrypted and they will transmit the decrypted information only after receiving correct signal from an authorized terminal. I tried it with my Visa PayWave card and all apps are tried say that it's encrypted and they cannot read it. Then I did some research and it turns out that it can only be read by an authorized reader, which makes a lot of sense for security reasons. So to enable NFC payments your bank would need to create an application for the phone,which would emulate the card, just like Google Wallet does. You can't just read a card and use it.
Btw yes you can use the Google Wallet on the Galaxy nexus,and pay with either the Google pre-paid card or you can register a City card if you are in the US and you happen to have one
krohnjw said:
Card emulation is not part of the SDK and not currently available.
Sent from my Nexus S using xda premium
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Click to collapse
Damn, that sucks!
gambiting said:
It's not possible for a very simple reason Nexus or any other NFC enabled phone cannot read a Visa PayWave or Mastercard PayPass card just like that. They are encrypted and they will transmit the decrypted information only after receiving correct signal from an authorized terminal. I tried it with my Visa PayWave card and all apps are tried say that it's encrypted and they cannot read it. Then I did some research and it turns out that it can only be read by an authorized reader, which makes a lot of sense for security reasons. So to enable NFC payments your bank would need to create an application for the phone,which would emulate the card, just like Google Wallet does. You can't just read a card and use it.
Btw yes you can use the Google Wallet on the Galaxy nexus,and pay with either the Google pre-paid card or you can register a City card if you are in the US and you happen to have one
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Pst. That's not what he asked
Sent from my iPad 2 using Tapatalk
I'd like the same thing. Being able to use my phone to open the doors at work would be fantastic.
hotleadsingerguy said:
I'd like the same thing. Being able to use my phone to open the doors at work would be fantastic.
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Click to collapse
I hope you didnt mean physically. And no i would not like those encrypted badges with the capability to be on my phone. Consumers have given enough power as is to corporations. I dont need X corporation having legal rights to track my whereabouts every breath i take becuse their encryption is on my personal OR work phone. No dice.
Sent from my samsung gt i9250 which is in the wrong country.
None of the NFC reader apps that I have tried to use on my Galaxy Nexus can read my smartcards (office doors, public transport card etc). It's a shame ICS doesn't support it but at least now I know why it hasn't been working.
The Samsung Galaxy S2 currently has that. My colleagues use their SG2s to open doors and pay at the office canteen. They can also use them to pay on the public transport system. I presume the NFC smartard emulation is a feature currently in Gingerbread that will eventually come to ICS.
The update that will eventually push ICS to the SG2 must contain NFC smartcard emulation otherwise the users will lose this existing feature.
pukemon said:
I hope you didnt mean physically. And no i would not like those encrypted badges with the capability to be on my phone. Consumers have given enough power as is to corporations. I dont need X corporation having legal rights to track my whereabouts every breath i take becuse their encryption is on my personal OR work phone. No dice.
Sent from my samsung gt i9250 which is in the wrong country.
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Click to collapse
What on Earth are you talking about? Give power to corporations? Take your liberal soapbox to another forum, plz.
I'm talking about at *MY* work. All of the doors except the front are locked on our building during business hours. The only way to unlock them is to use an employee badge, which utilizes an RFID tag. Being able to have that tag stored on my phone would be an immense help, since I wouldn't have to remember to take my badge out of the car. I can't tell you how many times I've walked across the parking lot before realizing I left the badge in my car.
samizad said:
None of the NFC reader apps that I have tried to use on my Galaxy Nexus can read my smartcards (office doors, public transport card etc). It's a shame ICS doesn't support it but at least now I know why it hasn't been working.
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Click to collapse
This depends entirely on the card itself and how it's encoded. Most likely it's an RFID tag that is either not HF (13.56 Mhz) or it's not using the Standard/NDEF read/write keys (in the case of the Mifare tags).
samizad said:
The Samsung Galaxy S2 currently has that. My colleagues use their SG2s to open doors and pay at the office canteen. They can also use them to pay on the public transport system. I presume the NFC smartard emulation is a feature currently in Gingerbread that will eventually come to ICS.
The update that will eventually push ICS to the SG2 must contain NFC smartcard emulation otherwise the users will lose this existing feature.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Gingerbread doesn't do card emulation either. Google has stated in their NFC talks that there are various reasons NFC Card emulation isn't present - one being a lack of a standard.
If it's done on the SII then it's either an addition within the Touchwiz frameworkork (addition of known communication protocols and local storage of card info) or the tags they are using are NDEF (in which case NDEF Push works fine).
Exactly what im talking about. Do you thonk your building management or x corporation is going to say suuuure let us put that on your phone so easily and skip all the other security that needs to go along with that now since it is now digitally accessible on an easy to hack phone? Get a grip. I have 4 badges and about 30+ keys and and about 15 elevator access keys. If a badge or certain key is lost you gotta thrlugh procedures. Hopefully nothing that involves gloves but still. If a certain key is lost all the locks gotta get changed if a badge is lost or cloned, a badge can be deactivated but if theyre constantly being cloned, manipulated or bypassed then other/greater security measures have to be used or taken out. So no i dont want a stinking badge on any of my phones.
Sent from my samsung gt i9250 which is in the wrong country.
krohnjw said:
If it's done on the SII then it's either an addition within the Touchwiz frameworkork (addition of known communication protocols and local storage of card info) or the tags they are using are NDEF (in which case NDEF Push works fine).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You are surely correct. I am speaking about SG2s distributed within South Korea (where I am currently working) and, being a captive market, Samsung can easily adapt the Korean Touchwiz (or even the hardware of the Korean SG2s) to make it possible.
Actually, I have confirmed with people that the public transport NFC is not working with the SG2 but rather with the USim card (integrated NFC) that is given to them via SK Telecom and KT Telecom etc).
My Nexus can read my university's smart card without any trouble(using NFC TagInfo). And I use it to open doors to rooms with restricted access. So I guess it would be possible to emulate it,but I have no idea how to do this.
gambiting said:
My Nexus can read my university's smart card without any trouble(using NFC TagInfo). And I use it to open doors to rooms with restricted access. So I guess it would be possible to emulate it,but I have no idea how to do this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So how did you get your phone to open doors etc, did you have to ask your security team to enable something on the phone?
chandlerweb said:
So how did you get your phone to open doors etc, did you have to ask your security team to enable something on the phone?
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Click to collapse
I believe he's referring to the fact that the card is used to open secure doors.
gambiting said:
My Nexus can read my university's smart card without any trouble(using NFC TagInfo). And I use it to open doors to rooms with restricted access. So I guess it would be possible to emulate it,but I have no idea how to do this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It reads mine too and mine has a pin. Might try and test it tomorrow at work
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk
chandlerweb said:
So how did you get your phone to open doors etc, did you have to ask your security team to enable something on the phone?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
krohnjw said:
I believe he's referring to the fact that the card is used to open secure doors.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, I meant that I use my card to open doors, not my phone
Did I understand that right: My Galaxy Nexus can read/write some NFC-Tags, but due to the lack of software protocols has no access to all of them?
I'm quite interested in NFC technology, so naturally I tested an ID card (was recognized) and my chip for the time tracking in the office (was not recognized, but is 13.56 MHz). So my question is – is this "just" a software issue or are there hardware limitations?
I do not see the appeal.
It's just as easy (easier, really) to swipe a credit card.
I do not see the advantage of making a purchase process more complicated--NFC requires a powered, active, working phone. What if the phone crashes? What if the battery dies?
A credit card is solid state, requires no power, and is usable just about anywhere...
Am I missing something?
Deanwvu said:
Am I missing something?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Did you get your $10?
I don't know about purchases but I have some cool ideas about things to do with my new NFC tags.
Deanwvu said:
I do not see the appeal.
It's just as easy (easier, really) to swipe a credit card.
I do not see the advantage of making a purchase process more complicated--NFC requires a powered, active, working phone. What if the phone crashes? What if the battery dies?
A credit card is solid state, requires no power, and is usable just about anywhere...
Am I missing something?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's the overall potential to removing all the clutter of having multiple credit cards with multiple bills and a wallet full of info that is hard to recover. If I lose my Wallet I have to call all my credit card companies and cancel all my cards then have to wait for them to resend them in the mail. With this I can easily recover with just a new phone. It sucks right now because not many people accept it but you are considered an early adopters if you join right now so there is going to be some teething pains you're going to go threw. Also think of this as like those key chain things that gas stations use for easier and faster gas purchases. It's like that but on a bigger scale
Sent from my LG-P999 using xda premium
Buff McBigstuff said:
Did you get your $10?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I did It was certainly worth $10 to give this a go!!
psychoace said:
It's the overall potential to removing all the clutter of having multiple credit cards with multiple bills and a wallet full of info that is hard to recover. If I lose my Wallet I have to call all my credit card companies and cancel all my cards then have to wait for them to resend them in the mail. With this I can easily recover with just a new phone. It sucks right now because not many people accept it but you are considered an early adopters if you join right now so there is going to be some teething pains you're going to go threw. Also think of this as like those key chain things that gas stations use for easier and faster gas purchases. It's like that but on a bigger scale
Sent from my LG-P999 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can see that as an advantage, perhaps. Maybe there will be a day when I walk out of my door carrying only my ID, my phone, and my car keys, but not yet. I do not trust my phone to be working all the time every day. All it would take is one phone failure when I actually need to purchase something to sour the experience for good.
Again, when it comes to purchasing goods/services, I think simple is best. Time will tell.
Security. Your credit card is an archaic tool rife with vulnerabilities. Chip based payment systems are arguably more secure.
psychoace said:
It's the overall potential to removing all the clutter of having multiple credit cards with multiple bills and a wallet full of info that is hard to recover. If I lose my Wallet I have to call all my credit card companies and cancel all my cards then have to wait for them to resend them in the mail. With this I can easily recover with just a new phone. It sucks right now because not many people accept it but you are considered an early adopters if you join right now so there is going to be some teething pains you're going to go threw. Also think of this as like those key chain things that gas stations use for easier and faster gas purchases. It's like that but on a bigger scale
Sent from my LG-P999 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Damn, I really got to stop typing long crap like that on my cell phone. I need punctuation damnit.
I tried it a while back at Best Buy, especially since Google is handing out a free $10. Yeah, it's nothing special, but I like the idea of keeping some cash on there in case I ever leave my wallet at home. I've gone out of town on business before only to get 2 hours down the road and realize I don't have my wallet. I NEVER leave my phone. It's a good option to have.
psychoace said:
Damn, I really got to stop typing long crap like that on my cell phone. I need punctuation damnit.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've seen much worse
Sent from the MIUI powered E3D
Deanwvu said:
I do not see the appeal.
It's just as easy (easier, really) to swipe a credit card.
I do not see the advantage of making a purchase process more complicated--NFC requires a powered, active, working phone. What if the phone crashes? What if the battery dies?
A credit card is solid state, requires no power, and is usable just about anywhere...
Am I missing something?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's because you're now old school.
Don't worry I argued this same point - there's not much appeal when I have to carry a wallet anyway for my ID and some cash for places that charge for credit cards. Google wallet takes more work than paying for a card for me.
But I could see this being a fundamental shift in payment for younger generations who might have a phone but no real need for a wallet - who will grow up used to this system.
The real issue at the moment is battery life, I'm sure 5-10 years from now week+ battery life will be the norm and using phone for everything will become acceptable. Phones will also not be so fragile (cough iphone) so it will be as reliable as a piece of card (or almost).
Personally though, I think an NFC card would be way more convenient. It could be the size of a credit card, with a touch screen interface that lets you use it for payment or as a driver's license. But this kind of tech is probably at least 10 years away.
Can I ask you guys which method is the best one out there ?
I do have root.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1365360
or
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=20404813&postcount=350
I think I'm a little confused by wallet. I know it wasn't inclued out of the box because of Verizon. I was able to download it from the market, install and activate it. I have the $10 and went to test it. I went to pay and the phone said sent but did not display the merchant for confirmation and the merchant didn't receive it either. They are supposedly setup for it. Do I need to grab one the other APKs and reinstall or is there any ideas you guys may have? I've searched plenty and saw no mention of what I'm experiencing. Thanks for any insight.
+1
Thank you!
finally some one that sees the truth
Deanwvu said:
I do not see the appeal.
It's just as easy (easier, really) to swipe a credit card.
I do not see the advantage of making a purchase process more complicated--NFC requires a powered, active, working phone. What if the phone crashes? What if the battery dies?
A credit card is solid state, requires no power, and is usable just about anywhere...
Am I missing something?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Deanwvu said:
I do not see the appeal.
It's just as easy (easier, really) to swipe a credit card.
I do not see the advantage of making a purchase process more complicated--NFC requires a powered, active, working phone. What if the phone crashes? What if the battery dies?
A credit card is solid state, requires no power, and is usable just about anywhere...
Am I missing something?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am on the fence, see the pros and cons with both...but eventually when the NYC MTA implements this technology broadly it would pretty sweet to use if you happen to misplace or forget your train ticket and/or metro card
For now, I have to agree. It is less convenient than just using a card.
What would ultimately be really cool is to replace all those things we're talking about with just your phone. Unlock your house, start your car, verify your identity, pay for stuff... all with one device. But until I can ditch my wallet and keys entirely, it's just another way to complicate things instead of a solution to make life simpler. Can't wait for the future!
I've now used it at about 5 different locations and it's pretty fast, with much potential. assuming you've entered your pin ahead of time, it's faster than paying with a physical card. my phone hasn't crashed for more than a month (since going to custom roms) and fcs are extremely rare. therefore it's as reliable as I expect it to be
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda premium
My phone gave me fits when I tried to use Google Wallet at Rite Aid. Fortunately the cashier mived the rest of the line behind me to a free register so I could keep trying, because I had to start over like 8 times. It's a nice gimmick for now, but it won't really be practical until more businesses support it and the bugs get worked out.
Terminators run on Android
I see the appeal in that my phone is quickly becoming my life "tool"
First it integrated my iPod/music player, now does movies, now does hand held games, mobile web browser and email means its now used for work purposes... replicon now has timesheet app so it also records my time in/out of a job......google wallet is now what I use to pay for groceries at the store instead of carrying my wallet in my pocket and possibly loosing my wallet... if my phone is lost, they have to go through 3 passwords before getting to my wallet.
Im thinking more of it as a "why not"... my phone is becoming more and more useful
out for a run with only my phone, need a drink, run into cvs, swipe phone
I used it at 7-11 yesterday just to test it with the free $10. It worked flawlessly but I don't see replacing my wallet until everyone accepts this interface.
I would use it more now if I was able to add my Wells Fargo debit card. Hopefully the ability to add any type of debit/credit card will be the next stag of evolution for this service.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus
One advantage is that you can see all your previous transactions electronically more conveniently (not having to log into your credit card account, or wait a day or two before the transaction showing up there).
Another advantage is that coupons and deals can be used more easily. For example, right now if you go into Google Wallet, you can choose offers like 15% off entire purchase at Gap & Banana Republic when you pay with NFC. The offers are pretty limited right now, but I reserve my judgement until Google Wallet or Isis (Verizon/AT&T/T-Mobile NFC payment system) take off.
In principle, it is more secure since even if you lost your phone, with your phone unlocked, other people can't use it for NFC payment since it requires an additional PIN code. But then of course losing the phone itself probably costs a lot too...
If Google Wallet or Isis gain traction, more credit card companies will jump in. And hopefully that means you can add more credit cards can be stored on your phone, eliminating the need to carry a number of physical cards.
Oh... and it saves a lot of time for a typical female not having to find an additional item in their over-stuffed purses.
When I bought my Nexus, one of the main attractions was NFC. Sure, Google Wallet is pretty cool, but the novelty is wearing off. I don't have any real uses for NFC tags. And I only know one other person with a Nexus, so Beam is pretty much useless.
One of the benefits of NFC that I was hoping for was card emulation. I thought I'd be able to head to my school, get the access keys for our RFID cards and then emulate this with my Nexus so that I could open the doors and buy food with my phone - no need to remember the card anymore.
However, upon further reading, it seems that Google won't be allowing us to emulate cards freely. Maybe I've interpreted my findings incorrectly but... it looks like this is the reason why there aren't any emulation apps for Android other than bloody Wallet.
Card emulation is probably the biggest attraction of NFC - instead of carrying around all the diffeent ID cards for the buildings you enter, they can instead be stored on your phone.. It's not like Google Wallet will raise awareness of NFC, since Google seem to be trying their hardest to make sure that it fails (incredibly slow roll out, even for Google).
WhiterThanWhite said:
I don't have any real uses for NFC tags.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
For you, there is no point.
WhiterThanWhite said:
Card emulation is probably the biggest attraction of NFC - instead of carrying around all the diffeent ID cards for the buildings you enter, they can instead be stored on your phone...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It would be great if this can be implemented. However,
I don't know if NFC can communicate with existing RFID Card readers
There might be a security risk if copying and using RFID cards from your phone is easy
WhiterThanWhite said:
When I bought my Nexus, one of the main attractions was NFC. Sure, Google Wallet is pretty cool, but the novelty is wearing off. I don't have any real uses for NFC tags. And I only know one other person with a Nexus, so Beam is pretty much useless.
One of the benefits of NFC that I was hoping for was card emulation. I thought I'd be able to head to my school, get the access keys for our RFID cards and then emulate this with my Nexus so that I could open the doors and buy food with my phone - no need to remember the card anymore.
However, upon further reading, it seems that Google won't be allowing us to emulate cards freely. Maybe I've interpreted my findings incorrectly but... it looks like this is the reason why there aren't any emulation apps for Android other than bloody Wallet.
Card emulation is probably the biggest attraction of NFC - instead of carrying around all the diffeent ID cards for the buildings you enter, they can instead be stored on your phone.. It's not like Google Wallet will raise awareness of NFC, since Google seem to be trying their hardest to make sure that it fails (incredibly slow roll out, even for Google).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Simulate the card means you have to decrypt the card first.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda premium
Honestly, that sounds like a horrible idea. I definitely wouldn't want anybody to be able to just pick up one of my security/credit cards, emulate it, and use it to their hearts content at all
Besides, I believe most of those types of cards have proprietary api's for communicating / validating. Visa, for example, wouldn't just make their api available to anybody so that you can go out and clone other people's cards.
jav_ said:
Honestly, that sounds like a horrible idea. I definitely wouldn't want anybody to be able to just pick up one of my security/credit cards, emulate it, and use it to their hearts content at all
Besides, I believe most of those types of cards have proprietary api's for communicating / validating. Visa, for example, wouldn't just make their api available to anybody so that you can go out and clone other people's cards.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I understand that my first post was quite long, but you (and the two people who replied before you) didn't fully read it.
I'm not proposing that we allow people to be able to duplicate cards willy-nilly. Like I mentioned, I have the access keys to my school's system. You need the access keys to be able to read data from cards like these, so if some random person with a Nexus found your door card, they wouldn't simply be able to dupe it. They'd need the access keys, which I had to get from the IT department.
Well, that's my basic understanding of how it works anyways.
You could just tape your card to the back of your phone; nothing extra to carry.
Incredibly pessimistic rant that is extremely unique to you imo.
Google wallet is more about the convenience than a short-lived novelty item like a 'magic 8-ball'
Beam is nice additional feature and I dont think Google were expecting it to change lives!
Custom NFC tags are whatever you want them to be! Maybe you need to be a bit creative and tinker around with them?
Overall what you want out of NFC (which was never advertised as a feature anyhow so I don't know why your so disappointed) would have security implications and I think its better off we don't have this feature!
Disable it or sell the thing on?
The proper way to do this is to go to your school or the people who run your card readers and ask them to support an Android app. Being able to clone a card is a very bad idea for the reasons mentioned (and would be a horrible security flaw in any card system), but nothing is preventing NFC-based card systems from creating an app that will allow you to register your phone instead of a separate card. This is essentially what Yale Locks is doing.
I'm working on a android beam client for PCs. You need an nfc reader of course.
If anyone is interested, I can release it in a few weeks.
The OP has a point though. It's up to the NFC tag to implement security itself. The Galaxy Nexus cannot emulate tags but you can be sure there are devices that do (even nfc-forum.org mentions that feature).
Here's how to get card emulation working on a Nexus S.
Here's why Google didn't implement any API for card emulation mode.
ArmanUV said:
I'm working on a android beam client for PCs. You need an nfc reader of course.
If anyone is interested, I can release it in a few weeks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am interested in your project. Can you please tell us more about what you are doing?
I would like to collaborate and contribute to some ideas.
Cheers,
Shailen.
I think this is a great idea if the security isn't compromised. Having to carry around one less key-card is always a plus!
Would give the NFC an actual legitimate use in my case
ArmanUV said:
I'm working on a android beam client for PCs. You need an nfc reader of course.
If anyone is interested, I can release it in a few weeks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Let me know if you get this going!
There are access systems that include the ability for NFC smart phones to allow access to buildings/facilities. www.smartid.it is just one of those companies. Not all building access systems are compatible, however.
Just a fyi, cbord is testing nfc for access/etc card uses at Villanova.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...yPWjBA&usg=AFQjCNH_RLNSLsG7Jb-fxA8Q79soxj4KAg
So, be patient...
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk
I kinda agree with OP since to me NFC is useless. Google Wallet is blocked in my country (doesn't really matter since there are rather not many places where you can pay with NFC cards), the NFC tags have no use and therefore are hard to get, and I don't know a single person with a GNex, or in fact with any NFC enabled phone.
Just another cool gimmick to advertise GNex with. But if better developed and more wide-spread, it might actually come in handy.
Wilsonium said:
There are access systems that include the ability for NFC smart phones to allow access to buildings/facilities. www.smartid.it is just one of those companies.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
JosepiOT said:
Just a fyi, cbord is testing nfc for access/etc card uses at Villanova.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think that smartID and CBord use the same principle.
CBord uses the CS Gold/aptiQmobile application. How does this application work? Does this app get special access to the secure element on the phone? Do the students use special phones with an OS customised by the company?
What if the phone's battery is dead, will one still be able to unlock doors?
I am interested in knowing how CBord implements this solution? I see that P2P might work in this case, where the student credentials are beamed to the terminal. However, when the battery is dead, one would wish to have a plastic card.
This is where card emulation is important. After enabling card-emulation on my Nexus S, I was still able to get the eSE ID even with the phone off.
What do you think?
I'm going to bump this as i have a ioProx card for the gym that i'd really, really like to have stored on my phone.
First of all, Google have full control of the NFC secure element in Nexus devices. This means that any company that wants to build an application that requires high security or the card emulation feature must beg Google for access. But Google are the good guys, right? Maybe not. Kaching wanted to build a NFC wallet for Android, but they say they've been given the cold shoulder by Google. Source here. How convenient that a potential competitor to Google Wallet is denied access, aye?
A related note is that card emulation is not possible for consumers in Android's current state. Let me give you an example of how card emulation would be useful in your everyday life: in your office or school you probably have NFC door access, and perhaps NFC printing and food payments. Many of these systems simply read the unique ID of the card and then associate that card ID with your account on the system. BlackBerry users have card emulation, meaning that they can use their phones with existing infrastructure. I've experienced this myself - my friend's BlackBerry can now be used to pay for his food and to gain entry to the building. Google have disabled this in Android - my Nexus spits out a random ID each time it's placed on the reader. If Google simply provided an application that allowed us to emulate one card at will, this would not be a problem. But they don't.
NFC could soon become a must-have feature on every phone. It certainly has the potential. However, the restrictions that Google have placed on NFC in Android will make gaining popularity very difficult.
Evangelion01 said:
First of all, Google have full control of the NFC secure element in Nexus devices. This means that any company that wants to build an application that requires high security or the card emulation feature must beg Google for access. But Google are the good guys, right? Maybe not. Kaching wanted to build a NFC wallet for Android, but they say they've been given the cold shoulder by Google. Source here. How convenient that a potential competitor to Google Wallet is denied access, aye?
A related note is that card emulation is not possible for consumers in Android's current state. Let me give you an example of how card emulation would be useful in your everyday life: in your office or school you probably have NFC door access, and perhaps NFC printing and food payments. Many of these systems simply read the unique ID of the card and then associate that card ID with your account on the system. BlackBerry users have card emulation, meaning that they can use their phones with existing infrastructure. I've experienced this myself - my friend's BlackBerry can now be used to pay for his food and to gain entry to the building. Google have disabled this in Android - my Nexus spits out a random ID each time it's placed on the reader. If Google simply provided an application that allowed us to emulate one card at will, this would not be a problem. But they don't.
NFC could soon become a must-have feature on every phone. It certainly has the potential. However, the restrictions that Google have placed on NFC in Android will make gaining popularity very difficult.
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My question to you is, how is Nokia progressing with NFC in the development department? RIM?
Secure Element isn't something to be opened to every developer, because it totally undermines it's purpose if everyone has access to it.
I guess you don't fully understand the reason why Google disabled the card emulation.
As you said, some places use an NFC card for payments. Imagine someone that creates an app that emulates the card. But instead of the 10$ you've got on your card, the app tells that you've got $150 dollar on the card.
So, how can a school use NFC in a phone for payment? Simple, create a new NFC system with a secured(!) app, which transfers the data by NFC. Just like Google Wallet does. Google Wallet doesn't emulate an NFC card, it just transfers data though NFC and the receiver knows how to handle that data.
So, there are two things that need to be done:
- Create a new system that communicates with the device, instead of letting the system think it's just an NFC card.
- Wait until more users have got NFC in their phones. For now, only the HTC One series, the SGS3, the Nexus S and Galaxy Nexus contain NFC. Maybe a few more, but that's it.
adrynalyne said:
My question to you is, how is Nokia progressing with NFC in the development department? RIM?
Secure Element isn't something to be opened to every developer, because it totally undermines it's purpose if everyone has access to it.
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Click to collapse
As I mentioned, RIM allows card emulation. BlackBerry devices are compatible with existing infrastructure without having to develop new applications or authentication methods.
The Commonwealth Bank of Australia is not 'every developer'. They're a bank for Christ's sake. Obviously Google can't open the secure element to layman developers, but they're locking out financial institutions too?
fifarunnerr said:
I guess you don't fully understand the reason why Google disabled the card emulation.
As you said, some places use an NFC card for payments. Imagine someone that creates an app that emulates the card. But instead of the 10$ you've got on your card, the app tells that you've got $150 dollar on the card.
So, how can a school use NFC in a phone for payment? Simple, create a new NFC system with a secured(!) app, which transfers the data by NFC. Just like Google Wallet does. Google Wallet doesn't emulate an NFC card, it just transfers data though NFC and the receiver knows how to handle that data.
So, there are two things that need to be done:
- Create a new system that communicates with the device, instead of letting the system think it's just an NFC card.
- Wait until more users have got NFC in their phones. For now, only the HTC One series, the SGS3, the Nexus S and Galaxy Nexus contain NFC. Maybe a few more, but that's it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As I mentioned, many schools don't actually write any information onto the NFC cards. The cards are empty. They simply link the UID of the card to a person's account on their backend system. This is how my school works. This way, there's absolutely no possibility of someone obtaining free food/money. And that's why my friend is able to use his BlackBerry on our system. Card emulation gives him a constant UID. My Nexus' p2p mode chucks out a random UID, meaning that it's not possible.
All Google would have to do to fix that is release an application that uses the secure element to allow us to emulate a single card with a constant UID. Then I too would be able to add my Nexus to the system.
Where are visa and MasterCard? Only when these giants get on board will nfc take off.
Trust me whenever the iphone has nfc than nfc will take off and become a "standard" among phones. Just like the front facing camera :banghead:
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Hotshot205 said:
Trust me whenever the iphone has nfc than nfc will take off and become a "standard" among phones. Just like the front facing camera :banghead:
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Click to collapse
Wait, are you saying now that apple was a pioneer of a front facing camera?
My daughters brand new first gen iphone had a ****ty 2 meg camera (just one), while my n95 had a front facing one and a main one -5meg on carl zeis optics.
Imho, the only thing apple does well is design. The sales and the place on the market is through the design in a first place.
I remember how their phone wouldnt have mms, bluetooth connection (apart from a headset) and pretty much no file transfer or interconnectivity -a phone!!!
Symbian may be dead now, still, a much better system than osx as far as I installed and fiddled with both of them.
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Regrettably, Hotshot205 is right. iPhone = traction. Lots of the features in iPhones existed on phones before they showed up on iPhone. But, all those fanboys will tell their friends and try to make phandroids jealous. Would you give a damn about Instagram if not for all the iTards going on and on about it? We had better photo-sharing apps before that, but nobody cared. Rumor has it the next iPhone will have NFC, and if it does, I bet we suddenly see a lot more use for a technology we had a year earlier.
Yeah that our hardware to be used at stores, to enable a wave and pay are not in alot of areas. Wait till visa and Samsung start pushing this hard during the Olympics
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Wouldn't the Isis nfc system also be part of problem with nfc development?
Google isn't the only blockade to NFC
The NFC P2P protocol is what is most used for facilities access applications on Android. There are systems that take advantage of this on the market already. Some systems for access control are fundamentally incompatible. All our NFC enabled phones are capable of handling this protocol.
As for Google holding up NFC. I can see how card emulation can be a thorny issue for Google. You would need access to the secure element and that might provide unintended exploits for scams and fraud. Would you want to be liable?
Individual banks are responsible for including the established NFC features Visa and Mastercard have already implemented. Not only are they loathe to change but they are also tightwads and don't want to issue millions of cards with chips in them or build the infrastructure to manage them. The are also paranoid about access to the information stored in the NFC secure element.
Merchants also must not only purchase and install the POS terminals that are NFC enabled but they also must be troubleshooters and educators for people that have trouble using their NFC cards. I can't tell you how many times I've tried to use Google Wallet at a merchant but couldn't because the clerk didn't know how to use it. Of all the places I use my cards at, only about 15% actually have the POS terminal for NFC transactions.
And while I'm not including the typical XDA member, people are paranoid. My 85 year old father refuses to use his credit union Visa debit because he thinks it's less secure than writing a check. He comes to me to order stuff online with my AmEx card... he's never going to change.
As far as Apple is concerned, they will bring a monolithic install base that will bring critical mass to the party. All those iPhones running around asking to pay with their iBucks will probably push us over the cliff and you'll see a much more rapid deployment of POS readers. Nobody will know what Apple is doing until it's released. I've not even heard any credible chatter for inclusion of NFC in the next iPhone.
I know I've rambled on a bit. But I doubt Google is as big a barrier as you would think. I think it's more likely the banks, merchants, not having critical mass for full scale deployment, etc.
EDIT
I just found an article at Forbes outlining a patent from Apple about an iWallet using the bluetooth 4 low power features... interesting but very disruptive for the ecosystem.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/anthony...t-paves-way-for-next-iphone-to-be-an-iwallet/
Hotshot205 said:
Trust me whenever the iphone has nfc than nfc will take off and become a "standard" among phones. Just like the front facing camera :banghead:
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Click to collapse
You obviously don't know what your talking about. Android phones has FFC before iPhones. Many features appear in Android way before in iOS (I.e. notifications, NFC, face unlock, etc.). The list goes on.....
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jokerzx12 said:
You obviously don't know what your talking about. Android phones has FFC before iPhones. Many features appear in Android way before in iOS (I.e. notifications, NFC, face unlock, etc.). The list goes on.....
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Click to expand...
Click to collapse
He never said otherwise. He said it didn't "take off" until the iPhone.
jokerzx12 said:
You obviously don't know what your talking about. Android phones has FFC before iPhones. Many features appear in Android way before in iOS (I.e. notifications, NFC, face unlock, etc.). The list goes on.....
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Click to collapse
Please try reading before bashing..
Wilsonium said:
The NFC P2P protocol is what is most used for facilities access applications on Android. There are systems that take advantage of this on the market already. Some systems for access control are fundamentally incompatible. All our NFC enabled phones are capable of handling this protocol.
As for Google holding up NFC. I can see how card emulation can be a thorny issue for Google. You would need access to the secure element and that might provide unintended exploits for scams and fraud. Would you want to be liable?
Individual banks are responsible for including the established NFC features Visa and Mastercard have already implemented. Not only are they loathe to change but they are also tightwads and don't want to issue millions of cards with chips in them or build the infrastructure to manage them. The are also paranoid about access to the information stored in the NFC secure element.
Merchants also must not only purchase and install the POS terminals that are NFC enabled but they also must be troubleshooters and educators for people that have trouble using their NFC cards. I can't tell you how many times I've tried to use Google Wallet at a merchant but couldn't because the clerk didn't know how to use it. Of all the places I use my cards at, only about 15% actually have the POS terminal for NFC transactions.
And while I'm not including the typical XDA member, people are paranoid. My 85 year old father refuses to use his credit union Visa debit because he thinks it's less secure than writing a check. He comes to me to order stuff online with my AmEx card... he's never going to change.
As far as Apple is concerned, they will bring a monolithic install base that will bring critical mass to the party. All those iPhones running around asking to pay with their iBucks will probably push us over the cliff and you'll see a much more rapid deployment of POS readers. Nobody will know what Apple is doing until it's released. I've not even heard any credible chatter for inclusion of NFC in the next iPhone.
I know I've rambled on a bit. But I doubt Google is as big a barrier as you would think. I think it's more likely the banks, merchants, not having critical mass for full scale deployment, etc.
EDIT
I just found an article at Forbes outlining a patent from Apple about an iWallet using the bluetooth 4 low power features... interesting but very disruptive for the ecosystem.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/anthony...t-paves-way-for-next-iphone-to-be-an-iwallet/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The P2P protocol will not do anything for the proliferation of NFC. Existing infrastructure does not use P2P, and that Google are trying to push it is laughable. When a person sees that their phone can give them access to their buildings using hardware that has been deployed for years, they'll sit up and notice. That's the case with BlackBerry.
The banks are only an issue because they're trying to get a cut. They know that NFC is coming. HSBC have made NFC-enabled cards the standard now. Barclays have issued over 21 million NFC-enabled cards; they're even giving away NFC stickers and wristbands. Even over there in America, many banks issue NFC-enabled cards as standard.
The merchants are adopting NFC at a fast pace now. Just last week the UK Post Office announced it would be installing NFC terminals into all 11,500 of its stores by October. A number of supermarkets are rolling out NFC terminals. Many small mom-and-pop shops even have NFC terminals.
The biggest issue for Android and NFC is Google. The people that want to use NFC to its fullest can't, because Google Wallet is so limited in terms of supported banks/countries/devices. Then when competing companies want to make an NFC Wallet, Google shuts them out. There was a company who wanted to make NFC-based door locks, but Google wouldn't give them access to the secure element. Obviously you can't just give anyone access to the secure element, but Google are turning their backs on established businesses. They're stifling development. Why do you think the Nexus devices don't have MicroSD slots? It's very possibly because MicroSD cards can be used as removable secure elements which Google can't control. Same with SIM cards, which is why it's still unclear whether the Nexus devices can use SIM cards as secure elements.
Take the Galaxy S3. Its embedded secure element is controlled by Samsung, but it can also use the SIM card and the MicroSD card as secure elements. Samsung have already provided Visa and Lloyds access to the secure element for NFC payments at the Olympics. Can't say the same for Google and the Nexus devices.
Hotshot205 said:
Trust me whenever the iphone has nfc than nfc will take off and become a "standard" among phones. Just like the front facing camera :banghead:
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Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep. We can just hope they Apple will add NFC to the next iPhone.
Thanks for everyone who took up for my post. I never said apple made it they only made it cool or the "in the happening" I've used so many different phones its not even funny and my first phone with a front facing camera was the Nokia N95(still one of my favorite phones) Nokia been had ffc, I remember using fring for GOD sakes lol. So I'm not a noob to technology but I know apple marketing is crazy when they add new features that's been out before it hits their phone. Plus I wish the new Apple iphone have nfc. It will give nfc the push it needs to get off the ground. While android will still have cooler nfc apps in my opinion.
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...ftr -
N95 release 2007, front camera-VGA, main-5Mpx (carl zeis)
3 years later...
Iphone 4 2010, front camera-VGA, main-5Mpx
btw, I put my old N95 to envirophone, was offered 65 Euro,
same age iphone-10 Euro.
lol
not to sound harsh now, Steve Jobs did a lot for the technology, design and innovation in all his areas, somehow, I dont think apple will do as well without him, just like they didnt do well without him before -just my opinion
sorry off topic
Nfc needs a universal standard or be narrowed to 2 or 3 standards for it to become competitive and viable. Apple may or may not give this momentum. Personally, i think they will. Too many companies want their cut for digitally touching your money. Sad but true. And hope i don't ever hear an apple user saying something stupid like apple invented nfc or smartphone payments. Been through that too many times with other 'established' or 'invented' technologies. Like apps. And voip. Even the smartphone itself. Ugh.
...
Ive been thinking over this past couple days over a few things since the launch of iphone 5. One thing which caught my attention was lack of NFC in iphones 5th edition.
So I have NFC in my GS3 and its a cool feature to tell people about but I havent used it for anything. It's an upcoming technology and for now its nothing more useful than playing with nfc tags (which is fun). But would lack of NFC hurt anyone. How much would u have missed it if it wasnt in ur GS3?
I know some of us have been able to hack gwallet but i dont think a company like samsung makes decison based on some of us who can fully utilize a technology
(If u dont like my qn dont hate me, dont call me isheep or other names as ive never owned any iphone)
Looking for a healthy discussion
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I haven't used it either. Don't feel bad its not that big of a deal. What's the point of putting technology in a phone if it can't be used in practical life situations.
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the people that work at Apple are smart. Their stock is up right, now. But, they are on their way out.
They don't have the vision. Especially without Jobs to keep the public happy overpaying for apps and songs
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Well, I think NFC is an upcoming technology, and like any other before that, the success of a new technology depends on various factors such as adoption rate, business value added, ease of use, and the support of technology consumer in his case merchants and end user.
If Apple put NFC in their latest iphone, that will boost the adoption rate as like it or not they have millions users. However even without apple's support of NFC, if most of other smartphone manufacturer especially android put NFC in the phone and merchants start to accept NFC as mode of payment, I believe apple will put NFC in the next release of iphone.
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It's better to have it not need it.. than to need it not have it..
What bad is it doing us?
Very good point but I guess apple likes to prepare its user for an upcoming technology and then gradually guide them into its usage and then make money off of them, which they r doing thru passbook. Which isnt a bad way of selling a service coz my 60 yr old dad wont understand nfc netime if I throw my gs3 at him.
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I love NFC. I use my Google wallet wherever I can and using android beam is really cool.
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thanks but no thanks. I dont need it and dont want it. If your that lazy that you cant carry a wallet , you deserve to have your financial and personal data stolen which can happen if you lose your phone. you dont even need to have your phone stole for your info to get stolen. It happens all the time eith nfc chips on credit cards.
kobe4rings said:
thanks but no thanks. I dont need it and dont want it. If your that lazy that you cant carry a wallet , you deserve to have your financial and personal data stolen which can happen if you lose your phone. you dont even need to have your phone stole for your info to get stolen. It happens all the time eith nfc chips on credit cards.
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Click to collapse
Well I pray to God that doesn't happen and thankful it hasn't. So far I am enjoying my NFC chip
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kobe4rings said:
thanks but no thanks. I dont need it and dont want it. If your that lazy that you cant carry a wallet , you deserve to have your financial and personal data stolen which can happen if you lose your phone. you dont even need to have your phone stole for your info to get stolen. It happens all the time eith nfc chips on credit cards.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You could make an argument like that about anything. If you take vitamins for instance, I could say "If you're too lazy to eat the proper foods to get your vitamins, you deserve to die of malnutrition".
Back on topic, I don't ever use NFC but mainly because no one accepts it. Apple could have changed that, it'd have been a "magical" and "revolutionary" new technology.
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I don't have an S3 but I do know a little bit about the nfc card. As stated people who know what they are doing can steal your info from the chip. But the answer is aluminum. The chips cannot be read through it. Just like the "Aluma-Wallets" shown on tv, and the aluminum and tin mixture that is used prevents any connections to the chip. If someone could come out with an aluminum case for the S3 (there may already be one knowing this flaw) the chip would be safe. Or even a belt holster, that way you can still use the function of it but only when you want to.
Tweaked 3.0 and Transparent ICS 5.0 Beta
kobe4rings said:
thanks but no thanks. I dont need it and dont want it. If your that lazy that you cant carry a wallet , you deserve to have your financial and personal data stolen which can happen if you lose your phone. you dont even need to have your phone stole for your info to get stolen. It happens all the time eith nfc chips on credit cards.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Google Wallet ins't broadcasting your CC data over NFC all the time; you have to login to it and select the card you want to use. Then you swipe your phone by the reader and confirm the charge on the screen.
If my phone is lost/stolen, I have a PIN to login to the phone, another PIN to activate Google Wallet, and Cerebus running under root to allow me to remotely find it, take pictures of the person holding it, and wipe the phone's internal and SD memory; I don't have any kind of that security on my $10 wallet.
I would also much rather use NFC for purchases than to hand my credit card over to a restaurant server and let them go in the back and take pictures of the front & back of it with their cell phones.
And if you have a good enough bank it takes 5 minutes on the phone to put those funds right back where they belong if someone stole your credit card information from your phone like that. I stopped carrying cash 6 years ago. If this technology takes the only thing I'll need to carry is my phone with my driver's license wedged in the case.
Credit card data isn't stored on the phone. Purchases are authorized through a virtual Mastercard through Google and then Google processes that payment to your card. Your personal CC info is never transfered from the NFC on your phone.
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kobe4rings said:
thanks but no thanks. I dont need it and dont want it. If your that lazy that you cant carry a wallet , you deserve to have your financial and personal data stolen which can happen if you lose your phone. you dont even need to have your phone stole for your info to get stolen. It happens all the time eith nfc chips on credit cards.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What if you loose your wallet? To use Google wallet you need a pin to log in, plus Google wallet it's not on all the time, you need to log in and choose which card to use, but if you loose your wallet, most places don't ask for I'd so they can use the crap out of your card before you realize you lost it.
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I Definitely Think nfc is still a burgeoning technology, that just hasnt hit its stride, but its picking up, and now is the right time to have it, as its adoption rate will build over the next two years... The general life expectancy or our phones.
The thing ng with apple is they dont take risks ... They are slow and safe to adopt, and usually only do it, after a technology and its usefulness have been proven. Theyre strength is their ability to take a proven technology and reinvent it in away that is simplified and easy to use for the masses. So they wont take a risks on nfc yet... But they are slowly building the services to rely on it, once they do deploy. And deployment will only be after devices like ours have proven its usefulness.
That said, i myself am weary of using it for cc purposes... But i love it for other purposes such as data transfer, i.e. Android beam, S-beam, etc... Ive found them very useful and have used my nfc chip ti share data from my device to others with ease, more often than i expected. Also i believe with nfc, itll make wireless charging our devices possible, and im waiting to try that as well... So even w/o the cc stuff.. Nfc is proving itself to me everyday... Its just up to the user to determine the best use of it, for themselves.
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Much like every other new technology... why spend (and waste) money implementing it when it'd be nothing more than a novelty with no practical use. It's the reason they just now added LTE to the iPhone; until now no company has had a respectable LTE network. Apple doesn't need to gamble.
Back to the topic though, NFC is useless right now. It's nothing more than a novelty that you need to go out of your way to use on a daily basis. I absolutely love the idea of never having to carry a wallet again and would definitely adopt NFC into my day to day life... once the technology is mainstream.
Apple tries to dictate what people need...
Also i believe with nfc, itll make wireless charging our devices possible, and im waiting to try that as well...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Third party charging pads may already be available, they come with a new back cover to make it work.
What bothers me about this post is the fact that one piece of technology is being judged over an entire list of more important key advancements that clearly makes a huge difference between the two devices. I'm not trying to sway anyones thoughts and im not going to point out the obvious but to isolate one feature and try to get people to ground the future development if it is underhanded.
In a year from now if NFC takes off and is supported everywhere Apple will change their tune and add it themselves with a better encryption feature of some sort and claim that NFC is only better due to Apple supporting it. Either way it comes down to what company finds it more relevant and who puts a better twist to the advertisement, what most people don't read is the fact its not new technology at all and agencies have been using it for years.
I don't know but its all drama no matter how its brought up it all depends if you the user can use it and if it makes your life easier, just the fact that you can put your medical info on it and hospitals can scan it in the event you can't speak for yourself at the ER makes a huge difference in my book.
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