Develop Bugs

Microsoft Haters

I may get roasted over this post, but it bugs me. First and formost not a big fan of the open source model. Have a friend that called me a freetard (I looked it up, some one who champions the cause for open source) when I had something positive to say about Andriod. Crazy! He is an iPhone, iPad user. iOs is based on Darwin which is open source. So when he made the argument for paying for software to drive innovation, it seemed a little odd. This guy is a rockstar in the IT world, but the iPhone smug is deffinately keeping him down. I was handed a Windows CE 1.0 device years ago and I could see the potential of this handy piece of equipment. Over the years I had some Windows CE based device at my side ever since. I have seen the rise of the Palm Pilot, listing to users complaing about how it synchs with outlook or doesn't until you buy something. I had my Pocket PC with Outlook, but the Pocket PC was not the rage so customers refused to even look. I was scratching my head as the Blackberry rose to power without the basic features I had enjoyed for years, it looked like a colorized version of a Palm Pilot. Enter the iPhone with the commercials touting listening to your music then answering a call. I was able to do that for years what was the big deal? Lotsa features in the iPhone at first were lacking.. how bout using songs as a custom ringtone... just plain old mp3 files.... nope you gotta jailbreak it. It was the must have items, if you had one you had status... it's a phone for crying out loud! Enter the G1 WITH NO OUT OF THE BOX EXCHANGE SUPPORT!!!! Use football, it sucks but it kinda works. Andriod is growing up into a much better phone O/S, better than the iSmug 4 (iPhone 4 for those who don't know a iPhone user or own one). Enter WP7 already condemed in the forums, even before official launch in the US. Windows CE from 1.0 to 6.5 were designed for lower resolution, smaller screens (excluding the screen size of the jornada and 1.0 devices) and a stylist. Phones are not like that anymore. A re-write has been long over due! From what I have read it's more like the Zune and it didn't act as a mass storage device either untill you installed a hack. I see the things it won't do as concerning sure, but as gamers argue the PS/3 is a better gaming box, it doesn't matter xbox is a more of a social network. I have seen the capabilities and it does now have huge potential. How many of you have installed Zune software and used it as a music player? Sure, internet radio is missing like a Winamp and it won't synch without a zune, that now has changed, but Winamp, itunes, any of them don't come close to the visual experiance and presentation of the zune software. Games that update your gamer score has my nephew frothing. Still has exchange support, better than Andriod when initially released on the G1.
Phones that had no out of the box tethering initially:
iPhone
Blackberry
Andriod
Palm O/S
All very successful O/S's. I think time will tell if WP7 is a hit or a miss, but in the tech world mediocre is usually the big winner. If tethering, mass storage support, and a few others are fixed in short order then who will you get behind? In all honesty I see huge potential in WP7. I have an xbox, use my phone as my music player... so bring on Zune software support! Work and play all in one device redesiegned for touch phones, I'm down to give it a try, to give it a chance to have some of it's limitations worked out in a few months. Don't be such a hater before it even has a chance.

You seem to be forgetting that not everyone wants what you want, there's loads of features which I consider unnecessary and others feel essential, and vice versa, does it matter? I don't think so. A friend of mine just got an iPhone 4, it's perfect for what *she* needs, I've never felt the need to ***** about how iOS is 'not for me'.
Using apps whilst on a call - I have never felt the need to do that, ever. I can, and it's nice to know that, but I can do without.
MS Exchange - I'm a teenager, what the hell am I going to do with exchange support?!
Tethering - I find it essential. No android doesn't have it built in (well, not included in shipping ROMs anyway), but I installed a *free* app, and now I can. I'm still able to sleep at night.
I agree that sometimes vendors can be a bit stupid about what they allow consumers to do (my girlfriend still can't set a wallpaper on her iPod touch, srsly), but as long as people are happy with their choice of device, does it really matter?

AdrianK said:
You seem to be forgetting that not everyone wants what you want, there's loads of features which I consider unnecessary and others feel essential, and vice versa, does it matter? I don't think so. A friend of mine just got an iPhone 4, it's perfect for what *she* needs, I've never felt the need to ***** about how iOS is 'not for me'.
Using apps whilst on a call - I have never felt the need to do that, ever. I can, and it's nice to know that, but I can do without.
MS Exchange - I'm a teenager, what the hell am I going to do with exchange support?!
Tethering - I find it essential. No android doesn't have it built in (well, not included in shipping ROMs anyway), but I installed a *free* app, and now I can. I'm still able to sleep at night.
I agree that sometimes vendors can be a bit stupid about what they allow consumers to do (my girlfriend still can't set a wallpaper on her iPod touch, srsly), but as long as people are happy with their choice of device, does it really matter?
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You're, in a way, making my point... I am not banging on Andriod here... not in any way. Stating a fact that all phone O/S's must grow over time. WP7 is a re-write, not an upgrade to 6.5 it will need to mature like the rest of them did. What your taking as a ***** about something is just the opposite, just saying hey there is potential there for a good device... see where it goes. As far as iPhone's go, maybe it is different in England... never been there, but people who own one here often times use it as statis. There is a funny youtube video on a lady who just wants one regardless and all they have in stock is an EVO. As I mentioned in my post... my nephew cares about the xbox points, I did not say I did. People should buy a device that does what they want not what others are buying. A phone doesn't make you better, it doesn't raise your status, and certainly doesn't make you more aware of the environment. An p.s. it is based on open source like the others. All that said isn't even a rip on the phone itself.

Many of those of us that are complaining about WP7 are long standing WinCE owners. My first WinCe phone was the BlueAngel but prior to that I had a jornada and acer n20w.
We don't hate M$ but we do feel let down by the focus of the new WP. I don't use face book or twiter, I don't want to play games, I don't give a toss about Zune, I don't want to have to open a windows live account.
I reserve the right to feck my phone up in an attempt to improve/personalise it.
I don't want a model T-ford with the engine hood welded down.

I would tend to agree with most of that a year ago. I got kicked in the a$$ by regular users.. same reason I got into this years ago. I was embracing change in the tech world it drove me to a point, but times have changed the way family's and businesses communicate. My supplier went off shore to the Phillipines, all my contacts there are on facebook. They know more about me then they probly should but has had a stronger team effect on our interaction. Good or bad technology is making leaps... it's a new direction. I am confident we are in the right place to drive the kind of change WP7 will need to make to have a more universal appeal. Nov 8 is big date for the O/S. I have a strong hunch no developer is gonna release a damn thing untill after that date.

awagner said:
You're, in a way, making my point... I am not banging on Andriod here... not in any way. Stating a fact that all phone O/S's must grow over time. WP7 is a re-write, not an upgrade to 6.5 it will need to mature like the rest of them did. What your taking as a ***** about something is just the opposite, just saying hey there is potential there for a good device... see where it goes. As far as iPhone's go, maybe it is different in England... never been there, but people who own one here often times use it as statis. There is a funny youtube video on a lady who just wants one regardless and all they have in stock is an EVO. As I mentioned in my post... my nephew cares about the xbox points, I did not say I did. People should buy a device that does what they want not what others are buying. A phone doesn't make you better, it doesn't raise your status, and certainly doesn't make you more aware of the environment. An p.s. it is based on open source like the others. All that said isn't even a rip on the phone itself.
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Ah, yeah I get your point, and I agree. Somewhat thankfully, I don't think I've ever heard someone try to sound big because they own an iPhone, but I've never been to the states

I didn't see your post as complaining really. The title of the thread made me think "oh no, here we go again." But your post was not what I expected from that title.
I completely understand how some people consider no tethering a deal breaker. However, just look at other phone OSs and you will realize that tethering will happen, with or without the consent of the carrier or the OS builder.
The bottom line is simple. If any of the missing items are what someone considers a deal breaker, just wait it out. We will find out soon enough how development, both official and unofficial, will add to WP7s feature set.
I personally have a few concerns but nothing that would cause me any serious grief. This may not be the case for others. Comparitively, iTunes is a deal breaker for me with the iPhone. Android's lack of native and consistent music sync is driving me crazy. I doubt we will ever see the perfect device, so I just try to find something that provides me with the features that are most important to me.
Your mileage may vary!

awagner said:
I would tend to agree with most of that a year ago. I got kicked in the a$$ by regular users.. same reason I got into this years ago. I was embracing change in the tech world it drove me to a point, but times have changed the way family's and businesses communicate. My supplier went off shore to the Phillipines, all my contacts there are on facebook. They know more about me then they probly should but has had a stronger team effect on our interaction. Good or bad technology is making leaps... it's a new direction. I am confident we are in the right place to drive the kind of change WP7 will need to make to have a more universal appeal. Nov 8 is big date for the O/S. I have a strong hunch no developer is gonna release a damn thing untill after that date.
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Much like you I am seeing that communication is very different than it was 2 or 3 years ago and it has nothing to do with the iphone (most users I know don't really text, send mms or even watch videos on thiers). What has changed things is twitter and facebook. A company or individual can accomplish more in getting the name and recognition of a product faster through these type of mediums than anything previous. Email is secondary to texting, updating your facebook or tweeting when it comes to communication with most of the younger generation (under 30). Most of my family that I had to force to use facebook is all over it now (ages 15-20) and our ability to cross reference our products (music, photography, etc...) or simply keep up to date with family events is much easier than before.
Windows Phone 7 taking advantage of these services makes it a desirable, easy to use product that looks great and allows growth in the future. The last 5 years has proven Windows Mobile is not going to sell and targeting only the closed in person who shuns social interaction through these mediums will be the fastest way to have a product fail.

no cut/paste will be the ultimate demise of wp7

Wow! I was expecting to get ripped from one side to another for merely mentioning a wait and see attitude. I am surprised to see other people get the point it is a direction change and much needed. A Great phone just does no cut it. With HTC sense and an Energy ROM I have everything I want to know right on the home screen, plus internet sharing, etc, etc... for me it's better than Andriod, but look at the market share for a once dominate phone. It's just not good enough, I think we can all agree a new direction for Microsoft is needed like it or not. I for one am looking forward to it, just need to rethink how I might get around the obsticals of the stuff that does not work. Hopefully, the HD2 will see a ROM soon hacked or not so I can get into it without pluncking down a bunch of cash for it.

orangekid said:
no cut/paste will be the ultimate demise of wp7
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Isn't that supposed to be in the first update? Don't you think an xda developer will do anything with it or somebody else might write something?

awagner said:
Isn't that supposed to be in the first update? Don't you think an xda developer will do anything with it or somebody else might write something?
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It is already in the next update and is already being tested with the latest builds of the OS. There is no reason to be concerned unless waiting a couple months without c/p is going to cause a major problem for you.

orangekid said:
no cut/paste will be the ultimate demise of wp7
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not to veer this topic off course....but it is stupid comments like this that annoy me...and apparently he doesn't pay attention to the news that copy/paste is coming in Jan.

Hi I had a Windows Mobile Sony Ericsson Xperia X1 and an Htc Diamond 2 but when Android arrived in the Market from Hero 1.5/2.1 to Desire 2.2 is been a great experience now. I am very happy and life is very easy. Android is the future of smartphones. Go for Android you won't make a mistake!!

I love Microsoft! I especially love developing for them. I think Visual Studio 2010 could quite easily be considered the best development environment in the world.
I love the fact that most people world wide use the same operating system, and that I can develop a single program and expect it to work on most peoples machines.
This is why I want WP7 to work well. I want to feel happy with it. I want others to feel happy with it too, because I want it to be a roaring success.
This is why I b**ch and moan about features that have been intentionally left out

That's exactly how I feel, except mines is from a consumer point of view.
MS always makes something with great potential, but then they half do it. Its like that with every MS product except the desktop.

Hmm... Could Microsoft do better? Sure. If you think Google has the magic pixey dust to make the perfect phone O/S that will make everyone happy you need to get out more. Apple and Blackberry have their own issues. I cringed creating a gmail account when I setup Andriod on my phone. Sure Microsoft has privacy issues, but at least I know with them I am the customer. With Google more often than not, your not. Has anybody listened to Eric Schmidt talk? The guy is just plain creepy, Google had to shut him up. "If you don't like street view just move." Ok, so where is it safe Eric? Your place? Oh I get it he is saying he is Noah and we must follow him to his ark. Look, all I am saying is give WP7 a chance.

Just FYI
HTC Support
Will there be any upgrade path to WP7? Free or purchase?
"I understand the importance of having the most up to date software for your HTC HD2. At this time, there are no plans on releasing a Windows Phone 7 update for any HTC device. I do apologize for any confusion that you may have had, I hope this clears things up for you"
XDA is officially my only hope for the HD2 and if nada then this phone will be worth very little in short order
The only thing that could change the path of t-mobile and HTC if t-mobile is sitting on thousands of HD2's only way they could unload them after the 8th is upgrade the phone!

Im pretty sure all WP7 updates will come via Zune

francomur99 said:
Hi I had a Windows Mobile Sony Ericsson Xperia X1 and an Htc Diamond 2 but when Android arrived in the Market from Hero 1.5/2.1 to Desire 2.2 is been a great experience now. I am very happy and life is very easy. Android is the future of smartphones. Go for Android you won't make a mistake!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If the future means having to reboot you phone, Or even worse have it fail to restart because a poor App. [I will give it a miss thanks.]
I have not enjoyed being left without a phone the few times this has happened.
Just give me a stable OS any day. [ Reliability is a key for success]

Fed up with WP7?

Is anyone else getting a bit fed up (to put it politely) with windows phone 7?
I really love the OS, but this whole fiasco with the 2 updates is kinda putting me off! Not sure why i cant update like has been documented elsewhere on the forum.
I can't unlock it, i cant get the update, its starting to annoy me a lot. All i want is the simple copy and paste function of the phone, nothing special! I do not know why Microsoft did not just add these features before they even released the OS!?!?

Try this, you may like it.
http://blog.walshie.me/2011/04/04/so-who-wants-windows-phone-updates-like-right-now/

if you're having problems unlocking your device, you should really hit the chevron thread. But for the most part, any issues with the unlock process on my end have been fixed.
As far as updating, you should check a few areas that have a nice update step for everyone and it works for anyone whose tried so far.
Then there is the option of actually waiting for your specific device to update via carrier.
It gets tiring to see the I'm tired of windows phone because it hasn't updated even though you like the experience...it's the first update...the very first one at that. Take a look at android updating, or even the god awful windows mobile updating

Updater
influenceuk said:
Is anyone else getting a bit fed up (to put it politely) with windows phone 7?
I really love the OS, but this whole fiasco with the 2 updates is kinda putting me off! Not sure why i cant update like has been documented elsewhere on the forum.
I can't unlock it, i cant get the update, its starting to annoy me a lot. All i want is the simple copy and paste function of the phone, nothing special! I do not know why Microsoft did not just add these features before they even released the OS!?!?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Try this. It's brand new, but, given who it came from it should work.

influenceuk said:
Is anyone else getting a bit fed up (to put it politely) with windows phone 7?
I really love the OS, but this whole fiasco with the 2 updates is kinda putting me off! Not sure why i cant update like has been documented elsewhere on the forum.
I can't unlock it, i cant get the update, its starting to annoy me a lot. All i want is the simple copy and paste function of the phone, nothing special! I do not know why Microsoft did not just add these features before they even released the OS!?!?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First update errors were caused by Samsung not MS.
Second update is being held up by the carriers.
I have an unlocked/unbranded samsung omnia 7 and haven't gotten the update, but I don't care because it is only a minor update and I know it is coming. Be patient bro.

influenceuk said:
Is anyone else getting a bit fed up (to put it politely) with windows phone 7?
I really love the OS, but this whole fiasco with the 2 updates is kinda putting me off! Not sure why i cant update like has been documented elsewhere on the forum.
I can't unlock it, i cant get the update, its starting to annoy me a lot. All i want is the simple copy and paste function of the phone, nothing special! I do not know why Microsoft did not just add these features before they even released the OS!?!?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can sort of understand the whole update irritation around here. Honestly a lot of users truly do care about a massive wave of updates... I'm not one of those fortunately... But with that being said, are people really this ignorant? I could argue that a million Android or iPhone features are basic and should have been coded before the release of the OS... Nothing is EVER feature complete. People have different views, different ideas, and therefore different features take precedent over others... You can't expect the OS to be released with every feature you consider 'simple' or 'basic' because nothing would ever get released in this world...

FiyaFleye said:
I can sort of understand the whole update irritation around here. Honestly a lot of users truly do care about a massive wave of updates... I'm not one of those fortunately... But with that being said, are people really this ignorant? I could argue that a million Android or iPhone features are basic and should have been coded before the release of the OS... Nothing is EVER feature complete. People have different views, different ideas, and therefore different features take precedent over others... You can't expect the OS to be released with every feature you consider 'simple' or 'basic' because nothing would ever get released in this world...
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I have to disagree with you on this. Both Android and iOS got grief regarding simple features. MS should have learnt from their mistakes, as WP7 was release years after these 2.
Any way i am now running Mango, and i have to say this is a Massive leap forward for the OS. If i had not have invested so much into iOS i would move over and just use WP7!
As for my previous post, i was venting my frustration. Which i think i am allowed to do and have an opinion. Granted the update only brought copy and paste and a few other minor features but these are massive features. Especially when using the device as a business device.

FiyaFleye said:
I can sort of understand the whole update irritation around here. Honestly a lot of users truly do care about a massive wave of updates... I'm not one of those fortunately... But with that being said, are people really this ignorant? I could argue that a million Android or iPhone features are basic and should have been coded before the release of the OS... Nothing is EVER feature complete. People have different views, different ideas, and therefore different features take precedent over others... You can't expect the OS to be released with every feature you consider 'simple' or 'basic' because nothing would ever get released in this world...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're wrong and being disingenuous.
The OS (even Mango) is missing basic functionality that is delivered by any decent feature phone, and even some dumbphones. This same functionality can be had on any cheap Blackbery or Android handset.
Also, the updates are too slow. Microsoft should use a faster feature update policy especially since the OS is young. Once they patch the basic functionality holes, then they can try (but fail) at using their Windows Service Pack-type update iterations.
The OS has a high satisfaction rate because most of the people who are using it are fervent Microsoft supporters (most, not all) and this is quite evident form reading various blogs and especially various forums.
Most consumers don't even need a rep to tell them something else is better.
All they need to do is play with the phone and they will easily see that the feature parity between WP7 and even a feature phone is a bit startling and they will probably opt for a cheap Android phone or iPhone 3GS instead.
It's simpy how things are right now.
Hopefully they speed it up after Mango and focus on the BASICs, cause that is what's causing people to look at other platforms right now.
My mom wanted to get my niece a Focus (cause she liked my HD7) and she didn't want it cause she can't MMS decently on it (she texts/MMSes a lot) and there is no IM client. She got an Inspire 4G instead... However, this same person had no problems accepting my HD2 as a gift over the new phone, but I didn't give it cause my mom didn't want to pay more by using 2 different carriers and no family plan.
Yes, it made me a bit sadfaced (especially given how the overall aesthetics of WP7 is superior to Android, and females tend to weight that a bit higher than men TBQH), but you cannot even begin to argue with such a decision seeing as how even Mango will fail to begin to address some of these functionality gaps. She was migrating over from a Feature Phone, btw.
It was the perfect case of "I don't care how it looks, I care what it can do." as far as I'm concerned.
But of course I'm sure you will think this was only an outlier situation

N8ter said:
You're wrong and being disingenuous.
The OS (even Mango) is missing basic functionality that is delivered by any decent feature phone, and even some dumbphones. This same functionality can be had on any cheap Blackbery or Android handset.
Also, the updates are too slow. Microsoft should use a faster feature update policy especially since the OS is young. Once they patch the basic functionality holes, then they can try (but fail) at using their Windows Service Pack-type update iterations.
The OS has a high satisfaction rate because most of the people who are using it are fervent Microsoft supporters (most, not all) and this is quite evident form reading various blogs and especially various forums.
Most consumers don't even need a rep to tell them something else is better.
All they need to do is play with the phone and they will easily see that the feature parity between WP7 and even a feature phone is a bit startling and they will probably opt for a cheap Android phone or iPhone 3GS instead.
It's simpy how things are right now.
Hopefully they speed it up after Mango and focus on the BASICs, cause that is what's causing people to look at other platforms right now.
My mom wanted to get my niece a Focus and she didn't want it cause she can't MMS decently on it (she texts/MMSes a lot) and there is no IM client. She got an Inspire 4G instead...
Yes, it made me a bit sadfaced (especially given how the overall aesthetics of WP7 is superior to Android, and females tend to weight that a bit higher than men TBQH), but you cannot even begin to argue with such a decision seeing as how even Mango will fail to begin to address some of these functionality gaps. She was migrating over from a Feature Phone, btw.
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may I ask what these basic features are that mango is supposedly missing? because I have the beta and I feel that all loose ends are tied now.

Here's my 2 cents. I have owned a Hero, Epic and now the Evo. I have spent countless hours trying out the best combinations for ROMs and Kernels, and I am pretty fed up with it.
Just last night, I spent 3 HOURS manually updating my girlfriends Epic to EC05 (2.2), simply because the POS wouldn't download and install. And at least Microsoft is including new features, not new apps that take up enough space as it is.
As far as I'm concerned, WP7 is a great OS, and I am sooooooo beyond dealing with this development crap it makes me irritated every time I do it.
With all that being said, I plan on switching to WP7 as soon as Mango hits Sprint with some new phones. You guys that own the WP7 phones are lucky. It is not worth the time or hassel to mess with Android, you will run into problems and I GUARANTEE YOU WILL GET P****D.
Hope I helped.

Dj21o said:
Here's my 2 cents. I have owned a Hero, Epic and now the Evo. I have spent countless hours trying out the best combinations for ROMs and Kernels, and I am pretty fed up with it.
Just last night, I spent 3 HOURS manually updating my girlfriends Epic to EC05 (2.2), simply because the POS wouldn't download and install. And at least Microsoft is including new features, not new apps that take up enough space as it is.
As far as I'm concerned, WP7 is a great OS, and I am sooooooo beyond dealing with this development crap it makes me irritated every time I do it.
With all that being said, I plan on switching to WP7 as soon as Mango hits Sprint with some new phones. You guys that own the WP7 phones are lucky. It is not worth the time or hassel to mess with Android, you will run into problems and I GUARANTEE YOU WILL GET P****D.
Hope I helped.
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Click to collapse
That's the main reason I won't root my HTC Inspire 4G and customize it. I've been there with my HD2 and know where it leads. My Inspire currently is like a pristine, un-trampled, wilderness in all of its glory. It works perfectly and smoothly and causes me no troubles. The moment I were to root it, it would cease being the pristine glory it is because it would continually get altered and messed with instead of just using it for what it is.
I've been there with my HD2 and know how customizing works. This is one of the main reasons behind the locked nature of the iPhone. Apple would rather have people using the iPhone for what it is than continually altering it and potentially getting no satisfaction from it. MS apparently understands this as well. WP7 is just as locked as iOS and they really need to stick to their guns. There are those who want the choice to customize and that's fine. Android provides all they want. But some of them want every system to be made for them and only their way. They seem to not be able to cope with any system not being setup to their standards, regardless of how selfish they are being. They want it all and don't mind others not having any.

eric12341 said:
may I ask what these basic features are that mango is supposedly missing? because I have the beta and I feel that all loose ends are tied now.
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Can you email or MMS video from Mango?
http://forums.wpcentral.com/windows-phone-7-general-discussion/178807.htm#post1554773
I'll help you out, though:
Just tried a short video and it has the share options to Facebook, SkyDrive and your email addresses so it is indeed working in the Mango beta.
(My video successfully uploaded to facebook, NEAT!)
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Then:
Are you able to send a short video to others with MMS? What about more than one picture at a time in a MMS?
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Then in reply to that:
At this stage 'Messaging' is not an option in Mango, just email, facebook and skydrive.
You can only send one picture at a time in an MMS from WP7 Mango (can you send more in a single MMS on other platforms?).
EDIT: or rather i can't find a way to do more than one picture in a single MMS...there may be a way
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So, no. You can't do it. Apparently you can at least email them now, however...
Also, I missed the Mango release date. I don't pay for smartphone updates but if you can tell me what version of Zune to use to update my HD7 I'll be happy.
Last time I checked most people were using NoDo, and that's what people going into store experience when they play with the phones...
This is like telling a Mac user to buy a PC because I have Windows 8 Beta and it's awesome.

N8ter said:
Can you email or MMS video from Mango?
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I guess the people that care about that would be upset then.

People send videos through e-mail and MMS all the time...

MrNetrix said:
E-mail video? Since when do people e-mail or even MMS videos? My feature phone can definitely do neither.
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Either you have a Feature Phone from the late 90s, or you're lying through your teeth.
Even dumb phones can MMS video these days if they have a camera (not all, but some - they're only dumbphones). Practically every feature phone with a camera can MMS videos.
To your first part of the post (not quoted): Free on Contract blackberries and cheap iPhone 3GSes can do all this, and more. That's not even comparing current WP7 OS/Devices to Android and iOS devices that were released in the same timeframe.
I'm not going to get baited into another heated forum battle, so... last response to you
If your only retort is "who does <something," then you've already defeated your own argument. A majority of cell phone users are on Feature and Dumb Phones. Millions and millions of people utilize the video MMS feature on those phones. And feature phones have email clients as well (some having somewhat decent HTML support, even).

N8ter said:
Either you have a Feature Phone from the late 90s, or you're lying through your teeth.
Even dumb phones can MMS video these days if they have a camera (not all, but some - they're only dumbphones). Practically every feature phone with a camera can MMS videos.
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No, I was just unaware that mine was able to since I never even had the remote need to.

N8ter said:
Can you email or MMS video from Mango?
http://forums.wpcentral.com/windows-phone-7-general-discussion/178807.htm#post1554773
I'll help you out, though:
Then:
Then in reply to that:
So, no. You can't do it. Apparently you can at least email them now, however...
Also, I missed the Mango release date. I don't pay for smartphone updates but if you can tell me what version of Zune to use to update my HD7 I'll be happy.
Last time I checked most people were using NoDo, and that's what people going into store experience when they play with the phones...
This is like telling a Mac user to buy a PC because I have Windows 8 Beta and it's awesome.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
keep in mind that mango is still in BETA!!! video through MMS is impractical I've gotten a few on my tp2 and the quality was ****ty at best. most people share through Facebook now and have smartphones that can do that ,as well as emailing them. so any other "features"?

eric12341 said:
keep in mind that mango is still in BETA!!! video through MMS is impractical I've gotten a few on my tp2 and the quality was ****ty at best. most people share through Facebook now and have smartphones that can do that ,as well as emailing them. so any other "features"?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And how is your grandmother who has a feature phone going to view that facebook video from her phone when she's at the flea market lookign for deals? Everyone wants their kids on Facebook. Yea. Lol... More people share on YouTube than Facebook. You can make YouTube Videos Privates. But more cell phone users are on Feature Phones and if you want to share short video clips with people on dumb or feature phones you cannot depend on either Facebook or YouTube. That is the issue. The issue is not what you can do on your phone, or wha tyou prefer. The issue is the OS being designed in a way that limits communications with people who have not yet migrated to smartphone platforms... Do you understand it NOW?
Again, if your only retort is "I found the quality lacking," then you've defeated your own argument.
Tethering?
Mobile Hotspot?
What about better Exchange Policy support so Exchange Servers stop declining lots of WP7 devices from connecting to networks that iPhones and Symbian devices have no issues connecting to?
File System Support so we can use a File Manager and manage files on the phone? And more easily/faster bulk copy media of dispirate/varied types to the device?
Outlook Synching from Zune Client, and Documents? For those of us who do not have SharePoint/Exchange but don't want to put confidential contact information/documents in the cloud? For those who don't know... Windows Live (Hotmail - which shares the same base login for Live) has a bad history when it comes to Account hacking/hijacking.
A notification tray so that you can see what you got while you were asleep or your phone was silenced/put away (I'm talking beyond the Social notifications pane, which only covers stuff you can already see in the Facebook/Twitter app, etc.) without hopping into several applications? (swipe left from Home, App List. Swipe Right, Notification Cache).
Does the Video Camera settings save in Mango, at least?
Only loosely related, but it would be nice if they allowed us to suscribe more than one RSS feed in Windows Live...
DLNA support at the platform level, not just from specific phone models/OEMs? Every decent Android device has this, and the iPhone has AirPlay.
Turn by Turn is still pretty bad in Mango, and I think I've already mentioned it but I still can't get over the insane feature drop-off from WM to WP7 IRT Bing Maps... It's still borderline unbelievable to me...
Universal Search?
Has Codec support been expanded? If you email someone a WMV and their phone doesn't support that CODEC, well, too bad?
I can continue

N8ter said:
So, no. You can't do it. Apparently you can at least email them now, however...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can't possibly be serious. Using the capabilities of a beta, that is not even close to feature complete, as proof that the finished release of the update won't include MMS video? That just boggles the mind.
N8ter said:
This is like telling a Mac user to buy a PC because I have Windows 8 Beta and it's awesome.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How so? I thought this thread was about WP7 users being "fed up" with the OS. Given that, it seems more to me like telling people who own a PC, but aren't very happy with Win7, to have patience because a new version of the OS is coming. That may or may not be good advice, but it is a more correct analogy.

MartyLK said:
That's the main reason I won't root my HTC Inspire 4G and customize it. I've been there with my HD2 and know where it leads. My Inspire currently is like a pristine, un-trampled, wilderness in all of its glory. It works perfectly and smoothly and causes me no troubles. The moment I were to root it, it would cease being the pristine glory it is because it would continually get altered and messed with instead of just using it for what it is.
I've been there with my HD2 and know how customizing works. This is one of the main reasons behind the locked nature of the iPhone. Apple would rather have people using the iPhone for what it is than continually altering it and potentially getting no satisfaction from it. MS apparently understands this as well. WP7 is just as locked as iOS and they really need to stick to their guns. There are those who want the choice to customize and that's fine. Android provides all they want. But some of them want every system to be made for them and only their way. They seem to not be able to cope with any system not being setup to their standards, regardless of how selfish they are being. They want it all and don't mind others not having any.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree with you 110%. Android is open source and all about customizations, if you choose to do so. I know the GSII is coming to Sprint in August, but I'm not sure if I can hold back with all the power that device has. It runs quite well and the most I would do is underclock the phone to conserve my battery. I have fully customized my Evo, but I cannot sync my emails, my data has to be turned off, and I need a task killer all the time or my battery dies really quick.
With WP7, you don't need to worry about those features, and you get free applications *cough*. I mean, I hate having to go through all of the troubles to get these things to work properly, but I love the variety that I have.
WP7 runs sooo smooth and there is over 500 features being applied in Mango, and I really want simplicity and that beautiful UI.
What do you think is more important?

[Q] Why is the Galaxy Nexus the red headed stepchild?

I saw one commercial around original launch time for the galaxy nexus, and honestly it pushed Google+ harder than the hardware itself. I have not seen any unlocked galaxy nexus commercials in the US. I like having the exclusive phone and all, but this seems a bit ridiculous. There is no reason the galaxy nexus couldn't have way outperformed the note in sales. I still get asked all the time when I pay with google wallet, "Is that an iPhone?". No. "Oh, is that a droid?" No! Its cute to know there are so many ignorant people out there at first. However, it tends to get irritating that google spends so much time and so many resources on ICS to make it the beautiful experience that it is and then just watches the nexus line flop hopelessly on the floor while the cumbersome touchwiz and bloated sense dominate the market.
Can someone please explain to me why Google and Samsung insist on wasting all this time and all these resources on building such a great product to only slide it into a bookshelf to collect dust as it were?

Samsung has bigger fish to fry (SGII and probably the SGIII) which due to crapware probably make more money from these phones, and Google advertises on their own sites but wouldn't make a lot of sense for them to push a phone that they probably only make little profit off of.
Enjoy the fact that you have a phone that will get JB before basically anyone else, that you have stock android, and that you have one of the greatest dev community's of all time. OF ALL TIME!
Also, go into a Verizon store, you wouldn't even think that they sold a GNexus where I live (Pittsburgh, PA), Multiple Motorola/HTC shrines while the GNexus sits right next to the Bionic in the corner of forgotten phones.

I honestly don't know and I can't tell you. There's two things Google sucks at terribly: marketing and support.
Microsoft is in a similar boat. It doesn't matter how much either company innovates, they are incapable of letting people know their products exist and they fall to the wayside.
I loved Windows Media Centre when it first came out. But version after version of it has come and gone and little features have been added. I eventually switched to XBMC. Why? Because no one knows what Windows Media Centre is. Microsoft isn't wasting time on it for the few guys with TV tuners.
Take the above example and substitute almost all Google products in there. Wave, Buzz, even Google Docs. I use it all the time and it's a great product, but people see it and have no clue it exists. For that matter I doubt they even know you can use Microsoft's web based Word with SkyDrive.
The tech companies seem to be in this funk where they compete against each other for features, but forget to inform the public that they're even offering the services they launch. It's no wonder that Apple is dominating, look at how much more they spend on campaigns. iPod ads plastered all over buildings... even seniors know the word iPod even if they don't know what it is.
All Google needs to do to take over the world is hire people from Apple's marketing team. Make something viral. The last time they had that was with the Google search engine itself and Gmail. G+ while it's nice, only boomed with the intake of new tech heads. Sign-ups died right after because no consumers know it exists and Google has failed to tell them why it's any better than Facebook.
Here in my city, the Galaxy Nexus is actually kind of popular, but that's only because Bell and Virgin put out big billboards for it's launch. I say kind of, because those billboards are gone now that the launch is over. Bet you there's still a huge iPhone 4s sign in all of those stores though.

http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1382163

WiredPirate said:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1382163
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wow really? This isn't a phone tech question but rather a topic of discussion.

spencer88 said:
Wow really? This isn't a phone tech question but rather a topic of discussion.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not a question? lmao
[Q] Why is the Galaxy Nexus the red headed stepchild?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

By the tone of your post I think you are comparing your phone to a soulless bastard ginger.
I on the other hand I compare mine to that sleek sexy read head with an attitude and a desire to get dirty.

geez, how many more of these kinds of posts are we going to see?

Here... now everyone can feel better and we can go about our day.

WiredPirate said:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1382163
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It says "!!ALL QUESTIONS GO IN THE Q&A FORUM!!", that's pretty clear.

Was this same bull**** present for the Nexus S and Nexus One?
Because I didn't see much for advertisement with them either.
Not that I care-- I don't purchase or put value on my purchases by how much they are marketed or known.
That said, I don't flaunt my phone around to a bunch of looky-lous for attention either.

adrynalyne said:
Was this same bull**** present for the Nexus S and Nexus One?
Because I didn't see much for advertisement with them either.
Not that I care-- I don't purchase or put value on my purchases by how much they are marketed or known.
That said, I don't flaunt my phone around to a bunch of looky-lous for attention either.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Nexus One was considered a flop by the industry. I personally was fully behind Google selling fully unlocked phones. I think if they could have gotten the price a bit less inflated and marketed it properly, the Nexus line could be more than it is now. I just don't think Google is that interested in selling phones. It's about the money and that comes from the licencing they get from other manufacturers.

thequinox said:
The Nexus One was considered a flop by the industry. I personally was fully behind Google selling fully unlocked phones. I think if they could have gotten the price a bit less inflated and marketed it properly, the Nexus line could be more than it is now. I just don't think Google is that interested in selling phones. It's about the money and that comes from the licencing they get from other manufacturers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I wasn't aware that Google licensed Android to OEM's. Pretty sure it's free because it's under the GPL.

No it is not under the GPL. Most of it is Apache licensed, with a few things under GPL. There are also closed source portions. Some things do have to be licensed to OEMs. Otherwise, they would never legally be able to offer google apps on their devices ootb, be able to sync with Google Calendar, and several other things.

adrynalyne said:
No it is not under the GPL. Most of it is Apache licensed, with a few things under GPL. There are also closed source portions. Some things do have to be licensed to OEMs. Otherwise, they would never legally be able to offer google apps on their devices ootb, be able to sync with Google Calendar, and several other things.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ahh I forgot about the proprietary Google Apps. Makes sense.

thequinox said:
The Nexus One was considered a flop by the industry. I personally was fully behind Google selling fully unlocked phones. I think if they could have gotten the price a bit less inflated and marketed it properly, the Nexus line could be more than it is now. I just don't think Google is that interested in selling phones. It's about the money and that comes from the licencing they get from other manufacturers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's a reference phone. That's all that is. This reference phone has two purposes:
1) Flagship device: "beta" test the next Android update with newer hardware.
2) Reference... its a prototype to suggest what the minimum hardware should be.
Nexus One set the standard for all future phones to have a 1GHz CPU.
I agree with adrynalyne. The Galaxy Nexus has a great developer community and support with great ROMs/kernels. I can really care less if the Galaxy Nexus isn't as popular as a iPhone or Galaxy S series. Just know that the Galaxy Nexus is a flagship device and will get Android 5.0 before any other phones get it (with the exception of the next "Nexus" flagship)

One thing I have noticed about owning a Nexus....

This isnt a knock against the Nexus, but somewhat against ICS in general. There are more than a few apps that are unavailable to me to download that I purchased previous to getting the Nexus. Navigon navigation being one of them, is unavailable to get from play store. There are a few others, too, a motorcycle game I wanted to buy just now isn't available for my Nexus. This is I think one of the very few pros of owning an apple product. If the app worked on ios 4, it will work on ios 5, and if it doesnt, an update is issued soon there after.

stevessvt said:
This isnt a knock against the Nexus, but somewhat against ICS in general. There are more than a few apps that are unavailable to me to download that I purchased previous to getting the Nexus. Navigon navigation being one of them, is unavailable to get from play store. There are a few others, too, a motorcycle game I wanted to buy just now isn't available for my Nexus. This is I think one of the very few pros of owning an apple product. If the app worked on ios 4, it will work on ios 5, and if it doesnt, an update is issued soon there after.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Blame the developer for not updating it then?
Alternatively, go to the web store and try to install it that way.

The app developers haven't updated their apps yet. If you think about it it's to be expected. How many phones are running ICS out there compared to gingerbread?

spencer88 said:
The app developers haven't updated their apps yet. If you think about it it's to be expected. How many phones are running ICS out there compared to gingerbread?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Or those with 720p screens?

OK, I guess that is the more correct direction to point the finger, the app developers, but I think google should lien on the developers some to get the apps working correctly, especially the big $$ ones. I have side loaded the Navigon app and its all messed up on ICS.

stevessvt said:
OK, I guess that is the more correct direction to point the finger, the app developers, but I think google should lien on the developers some to get the apps working correctly, especially the big $$ ones. I have side loaded the Navigon app and its all messed up on ICS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Google can't force developers to keep their apps updated though. That said, the play store says it has ICS updates. It is more likely a resolution issue.

adrynalyne said:
Or those with 720p screens?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I dont think the screen res is as big a deal at this point, there are several oddball size screens that apps look fine on. Droid X was one, 480X854, and everything was fine on it. Plus there are several 720P phones out there now.
Also on the Navigon app, its the voice that was messed up, studdering and repeating itself over and over.

stevessvt said:
I dont think the screen res is as big a deal at this point, there are several oddball size screens that apps look fine on. Droid X was one, 480X854, and everything was fine on it. Plus there are several 720P phones out there now.
Also on the Navigon app, its the voice that was messed up, studdering and repeating itself over and over.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do those 720p devices have support?
480x854 isn't an oddball resolution; a good chunk of Motorola handsets and some Sony as well use this resolution.
http://androidcheck.com/listing/resolution/480x854/

Well, again to go back to the Navigon app, reading on the play store it seems to work on the HTC Rezound ok,...

stevessvt said:
google should lien on the developers
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Like, take their houses and stuff?
Sorry, couldn't help it.

adrynalyne said:
Or those with 720p screens?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is true, I forgot to mention that.
It's easy for apple to make it easy because they've had the same screen size and resolution for over 2 years now, going on 3 if they don't change it up this summer.

I'm sorry, but blaming the developers is a far cry from the truth...
Lets face it, Google doesn't even prioritize developers... While iOS developers have access to preview versions of the next iOS, to start to debug in advance, that work on the latest available generation iDevice, google doesn't do that... So, while iOS developers had many months to debug and test and fix their apps (and at the same time, they did not have to buy a new phone), most developers need to wait until the first phone with the new Android O/S is released, and then it is like running against the time, as you need to grab a new phone, bla bla bla... And no, an emulator doesn't really help you with games and other apps that are high performance...
It is a shame that some big companies like E.A. seems to get no interest into the Galaxy Nexus (as the lack of good games like Real Racing 2, Peggle, PvsZ is astonishing for a multi million dollar company), but, as far as most developers are concerned, it is not fair to compare iOS and Android. One tries to give all the tools so the developers are ready for the launch, the other, meh... Gives close to nothing and all you earn is a big surprise with a new O/S where some things you were used to use doesn't work, and it is up to you to grab a new device, specifically when it was already launched and you have dozens of angry consumers telling that you suck...

I have a friend who is an Android developer and somehow has managed to keep device compatibility with each OS release without ever owning the device.
So interesting theory, but it is at least partially a BS copout. Especially in this thread, where ICS updates have been made to the program, and yet the GN has been out since November and has no support. That is of no fault from Google.
Also, developers that are not willing to spend money, to make money, suck anyway. I think Navigon can afford some Galaxy Nexus devices.

HinotoriBR said:
I'm sorry, but blaming the developers is a far cry from the truth...
Lets face it, Google doesn't even prioritize developers... While iOS developers have access to preview versions of the next iOS, to start to debug in advance, that work on the latest available generation iDevice, google doesn't do that... So, while iOS developers had many months to debug and test and fix their apps (and at the same time, they did not have to buy a new phone), most developers need to wait until the first phone with the new Android O/S is released, and then it is like running against the time, as you need to grab a new phone, bla bla bla... And no, an emulator doesn't really help you with games and other apps that are high performance...
It is a shame that some big companies like E.A. seems to get no interest into the Galaxy Nexus (as the lack of good games like Real Racing 2, Peggle, PvsZ is astonishing for a multi million dollar company), but, as far as most developers are concerned, it is not fair to compare iOS and Android. One tries to give all the tools so the developers are ready for the launch, the other, meh... Gives close to nothing and all you earn is a big surprise with a new O/S where some things you were used to use doesn't work, and it is up to you to grab a new device, specifically when it was already launched and you have dozens of angry consumers telling that you suck...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
adrynalyne said:
I have a friend who is an Android developer and somehow has managed to keep device compatibility with each OS release without ever owning the device.
So interesting theory, but it is at least partially a BS copout. Especially in this thread, where ICS updates have been made to the program, and yet the GN has been out since November and has no support.
Also, developers that are not willing to spend money, to make money, suck anyway. I think Navigon can afford some Galaxy Nexus devices.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can see both POVs for sure. I will always hate EA, they refuse to update their apps, REFUSE to, and WILL NOT respond to any email. I dont buy anything from EA on ANY console/device, that includes sports games. Anyways back on topic: If we were still within the first month or two of ICS launch then I would agree that we need to give the devs more time to work this out, but since we are not.. I say it is absolutely, at this point, the devs fault for not updating his/her app(s). I know there are some devs that are still currently struggling to get their apps updated and doing it without an ICS device, but personally I think its been enough time. Although better late than never. One app that comes to mind, and I mentioned this on another thread the other day, is WiFi Status! That was always a favorite app of mine, very simple, just if your WiFi is on but your not connected to a network it puts a symbol in your notif bar so you remember to turn it off.. How hard can it possibly be to update that!? That surely isn't Google's fault, its the devs.

Thinking about going for the Iphone this time

Hi,
I always had android phones (galaxy's, notes & nexuses) but it always seemed like the iOS ecosystem was better, software wise.
From the outside it seems that they are getting better apps, faster updates (even to big apps) and of course they have the iMessage that all of my friends from the US uses and is a huge part of why I want to swich. (I'm from europe).
What do you guys think? Should I jump ship once and see how it is?

If thats what you want

tal123 said:
Hi,
I always had android phones (galaxy's, notes & nexuses) but it always seemed like the iOS ecosystem was better, software wise.
From the outside it seems that they are getting better apps, faster updates (even to big apps) and of course they have the iMessage that all of my friends from the US uses and is a huge part of why I want to swich. (I'm from europe).
What do you guys think? Should I jump ship once and see how it is?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I actually like many people used iPhones but here I am.
Do you really think on a board like XDA, in the Pixel XL forum you are going to get everybody telling you how great iPhone is?

AstroDigital said:
I actually like many people used iPhones but here I am.
Do you really think on a board like XDA, in the Pixel XL forum you are going to get everybody telling you how great iPhone is?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Truly. This is an android enthusiast forum. If you want an iphone, go get one. Don't expect that recommendation from anyone here, though.

I think that there could be good points for both sides. it's no different then pixel vs any other flagship.

Yeah, no, it's very different. IOS vs Android, not Android vs Android. This being an android specific forum, you're not likely to find much in the way of love for the iphone 7 here.

I think it is always weird to have iOS vs android discussions in a specific phone's forum. That seems like a more general topic better discussed elsewhere.
This forum us for talking about this phone...
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Lack of a back button is reason alone to stay on Android!

I know and understand your frustrations with Android. I've been an avid android fan since the OG Droid came out. What a phone and I loved it. Pure simple and open Motorola did a great job with that phone. Fragmentation ruined that phone and most every android phone since. The thing I hated apple for was the reason andtroid was so frustrating. To this day I get sick of looking at my wifes Iphone, it looks almost exactly the same as the original Iphone, if she puts wallpaper or a photo on her phone its just covered up by the icons that apple stick there and thats annoying to me anyway. Customizing your Iphone without jailbreaking lol... even the name lets you know how they feel about messing with their phone. Let's see Android is rooting Apple is jailbreaking even in a simple adjective they let you know don't touch fall in line with everyone and like it! I really domn't like the concept of Apple sorry, it's my phone I paid for it I should be able to do whatever I want as long as I'm not intruding on the rights of others and I'm sorry I do't see how customizing my phone would bother anyone. What they did and still do have right is they control the quality of the products in their app store and Andropid has dropped the ball on that one since the beginning. looking back they were trying for numbers not quality to compete and it has cost them. The quality of apps on the iphone is better and in saying that Android is catching up. These are basically the same apps written for different platforms. Ive seen it with my wifes phone for years I get so many more force closings amnd associated other problems than she does and I can hear her frustrations when using my phone. Like I said Android has been getting better and it's a heck of alot easier writing programs for one platform and one manufacturer. This is Androids problem each manufacturer has made alterations to Android AKA skins along with constant updates its tough on developers. The whole reason for Nexus was to give the developers a heads up and a chance to work with a pure version of android. I always loved the Nexus program and found that I personally had much fewer problems than my friends that had HTC, Samsung LG etc..... These manufacturers were never held accountable for upgrading on a timely fashion and neither were the providers aka verizon AT&T etc... this is why we are in the mess we are. I think and hope google has finally said enough! They have designed and engineered a top of the line flagship, one that is not outdated before the first box arrives. This phone is one people should be proud of it's fast and smooth its as close to pure android as possible oh I know Verizon put a few apps on it but they can be removed and give mne a break that's no big deal. It's a top quality phone that can stand up to the Iphone. Believe me if you know anyone that has drank the KoolAide and my wife has it certainly isn't going to change their minds and expecting that is not realistic. Google has given the developers a phone and a platform to work with and lets see how much of a difference this makes. I for one am hoping it makes as big a difference as Google thinks it will. I think incorporating with VR and home is swinging for the fences and I hope it's a home run.
Sent from my SM-T550 using Xparent BlueTapatalk 2

tal123 said:
Hi,
I always had android phones (galaxy's, notes & nexuses) but it always seemed like the iOS ecosystem was better, software wise.
From the outside it seems that they are getting better apps, faster updates (even to big apps) and of course they have the iMessage that all of my friends from the US uses and is a huge part of why I want to swich. (I'm from europe).
What do you guys think? Should I jump ship once and see how it is?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I used an iPhone a number of years ago, jail broke it used Cydia the whole nine yards, once I started using Android devices I have NEVER looked back. In my position I get to try out different phones and some of the people at my company use iPhones. I have taken them home for weekend test drives just to see if I'm missing anything and after a day or so I find myself putting the SIM back in my current android device. I can't speak for you or what may be most important to you but for me I would not go back to ios.

yeah apple do a good job with software/hardware integration, but then it's to be expected with a heavily locked down device, it's the same reason they get updates first they are simpler to make stuff for.
but for me I've just always found Android way more flexible and I would rather have that flexibility. end of the day it all comes down to personal choice.