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So one of Microsoft's big features for WP7 over WM is that OS updates can be sent out directly by MS to all models, eliminating the previous delays from device manufacturers and operators. The great benefit here is not only for all users getting access to all new OS features, but a really important aspect is limiting fragmentation of the platform for developers. I.e. Developers don't need the huge hassle of trying to support all types of hardware and OS to get the highest number of users for their app. This is what killed Windows Mobile, and ultimately is going to kill Android if you read the story about Angry Birds.
So how about a vote? Do you think that Microsoft will hold up to the promise that they will release the OS updates to all WP7 hardware at the same time?
Will they? Who knows. But if they don't they will have effectively abandoned the smartphone market permanently because the number of people left who would believe a word they say about anything wouldn't be enough to sustain a small tech company. I can't imagine Microsoft is that stupid but they did abandon it once already.
markgamber said:
Will they? Who knows. But if they don't they will have effectively abandoned the smartphone market permanently because the number of people left who would believe a word they say about anything wouldn't be enough to sustain a small tech company. I can't imagine Microsoft is that stupid but they did abandon it once already.
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Wasn't once, Sidekick anyone?
I think that they will update all the devices at the same time and I think that all of the new WP7 devices have a good amount of sales and so they should update all of them.
I don't think you will see updates all at the same time, i think you will see them based upon carriers and headsets but "Around" the same time. I don't think MS would want to push an update all at once unless its just a core update and doesn't impact carrier requirements or device specific issues.
blahism said:
I don't think you will see updates all at the same time, i think you will see them based upon carriers and headsets but "Around" the same time. I don't think MS would want to push an update all at once unless its just a core update and doesn't impact carrier requirements or device specific issues.
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I think you raised 2 interesting points there. Say there is a device specific issue, does the manufacturer submit that to MS for inclusion in an update to that particular device? What if they don't bother? What if MS make a new feature in the OS that requires a new driver from the device manufacturer? If they don't bother then its deadlock, and in that case this situation is no better than with Windows Mobile of leaving all updates to the manufacturer. Personally I think MS are in big trouble here if they haven't thought this through completely...
indiekiduk said:
I think you raised 2 interesting points there. Say there is a device specific issue, does the manufacturer submit that to MS for inclusion in an update to that particular device? What if they don't bother? What if MS make a new feature in the OS that requires a new driver from the device manufacturer? If they don't bother then its deadlock, and in that case this situation is no better than with Windows Mobile of leaving all updates to the manufacturer. Personally I think MS are in big trouble here if they haven't thought this through completely...
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If an OEM wants to push a device-specific update, they submit it to Microsoft and Microsoft will push it out after approval (the carrier may need to approve as well). Microsoft, of course, could potentially fix this themselves if the OEM refuses to fix it but I can't imagine that happening.
Microsoft has developed a vast majority of the drivers. Again, I just can't see Microsoft making a new feature that...
1. Relies on a driver and/or...
2. The driver isn't written by MS
They've thought this through pretty well. Some more explanation of the timing and carrier approval can be found here.
http://windowsphonesecrets.com/2010...-and-carriers-ability-to-block-those-updates/
If you consider how HTC does it, they add their custom features in an app. HTC has wanted to incorporate Sense into their WP7 offerings. But MS has not allowed it. Instead they compensate by adding Sense-like features to the HTC Hub. I believe this is the extent of any customization among various handset makers.
RustyGrom said:
They've thought this through pretty well. Some more explanation of the timing and carrier approval can be found here.
http://windowsphonesecrets.com/2010...-and-carriers-ability-to-block-those-updates/
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So Paul Thurrott says that (to prevent fragmentation) if an operator/handset manufacturer blocks their devices from an OS update then they can't blog the next one and it's automatically sent out. That sounds absolutely mental!
indiekiduk said:
So Paul Thurrott says that (to prevent fragmentation) if an operator/handset manufacturer blocks their devices from an OS update then they can't blog the next one and it's automatically sent out. That sounds absolutely mental!
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I agree that it's definitely a bit strange. But let's just see how this works out in practice. In theory Android can get updates super fast and in theory the carriers can block iPhone updates. Microsoft is still controlling the process, not the OEMs or carriers. The carriers understandably don't want to run untested code on their networks. Microsoft is giving them the option to delay/block. If they abuse it, Microsoft could just give them the middle finger and release them directly. It sounds like the carriers are going to play ball. The ones that don't will certainly get a bad rap and could lose customers over it.
We certainly do not want the mess that is the Android update process, with Google, the Carriers and the OEM's all having a say in when updates go out!
adesonic said:
We certainly do not want the mess that is the Android update process, with Google, the Carriers and the OEM's all having a say in when updates go out!
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Ugh no, Google phones get the update first and fast. As of right now Google has only one phone.
Its all the other Android phones that have this problem with OEMs, and carriers.
WP7 will be just like the Nexus One. All WP7 devices will get updated regardless of carriers. If your carrier wont allow the OTA update then just connect to Zune.
I also think the updates will be regional.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk
adesonic said:
We certainly do not want the mess that is the Android update process, with Google, the Carriers and the OEM's all having a say in when updates go out!
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That's the kind of crap that killed WinMo for me. Three times with three different phones I ran into the problem of video "tearing". Three times I emailed Microsoft support, HTC support and AT&T support about the problem and three times they were all content to point fingers at each other. Microsoft says it was a problem with HTC's drivers. HTC says it was a problem with the carrier not approving whatever updates and AT&T says if you want to solve the problem buy this new phone. And I did that twice to find the latest and greatest had the same problem, no one actually did anything. What was worse was finding updates on HTC's site that I couldn't apply to my phone because they were tied to particular carriers and my carrier, of course, wasn't one of them. The worst kind of planned obsolescence. That was when I said the hell with WinMo and bought an iPhone and all that garbage went away. When it had a problem, I went to Apple. Period. Updates came from Apple. Period. And they've only recently stopped updating the original iPhone after how long? Apple cut out the carrier for a reason and has set the bar that Microsoft should at least have the decency to meet if not exceed if they expect to be taken seriously.
vetvito said:
Ugh no, Google phones get the update first and fast. As of right now Google has only one phone.
Its all the other Android phones that have this problem with OEMs, and carriers.
WP7 will be just like the Nexus One. All WP7 devices will get updated regardless of carriers. If your carrier wont allow the OTA update then just connect to Zune.
I also think the updates will be regional.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk
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I agree things were safer for users with the Nexus one, but they've stopped selling it now for whatever reason. I'd love to find out why they decided to do that because that model was a major advantage. All new Android users are going to hit this issue which is what killed WinMo as stated by markgamber.
Also you can't really say what will happen with WP7 because it remains to be seen what will actually happen when its update time. Actually it won't be until the 2nd update we'll find out if people with the old models are screwed over. It'll actually be less of a big deal if Microsoft take 1 year between OS updates because most users will want new hardware anyway, however it could still be a major disaster if manufacturers blame MS for pushing out an untested OS upgrade that breaks thousands of phones. I expect there will be some exemption like hardware of over 2 years old does not get upgrades from MS, that would get them off the hook slightly.
I agree that Apple is great for the consumer, if there is any problem Apple fix it, they control the whole experience, anything you buy on the app store will work on hardware up to 2 years old. However for developers its not such a great picture. The app store just breaks even, Apple aren't interested in app developers being successful, they only built the app store because jailbreaks were doing it anyway, previously they only planned for javascript web apps, and if anyone tries to do anything innovative outside the restrictions of the SDK their app gets banned and they get threatened their developer account will be cancelled. However there was a some money to be made by some lucky people, and everyone else made at least more than building windows mobile apps in the old days. Anyway Apple make all their money from the hardware they don't need to make money from some 3rd party dev making a good app. Google also don't care about developers, the market place is terrible and its widely known that devs with apps on both platforms get like 0.3% of their sales on Android. But as with Apple, Google don't care about the developers either. With Android, Google attract phone manufacturers by offering an OS for free, which they used to need to pay MS $30 per license or whatever. And by having tons of phones out there, Google make a ton of cash from the ads in the built in apps google search, and google maps. They have no need to support developers, and if the platform becomes fragmented they don't care because as long as they sell more phones they make more money.
It remains to be seen what the point of the WP7 marketplace is to MS. My friend has the #1 shooter app and sells 1 a day so MS will be running the store at a loss. And if they need to give WP7 away for free to compete with Android for traction there really is no hope.
You guys bring up some really great points. I am starting to think that the reason Apple stayed with At&t had something to do with updates.
To hopefully add on to this great discussion I think that the US carrier market is in for a real change soon. Every day I see prices coming down and carriers having more and more of the same features. Once carriers are handing out the exact same features it might not be that big of a deal to have MS release all updates. Other countries are way more competitive with their carrier choices and I think US will have to evolve because users demand it.
bowpay said:
You guys bring up some really great points. I am starting to think that the reason Apple stayed with At&t had something to do with updates.
To hopefully add on to this great discussion I think that the US carrier market is in for a real change soon. Every day I see prices coming down and carriers having more and more of the same features. Once carriers are handing out the exact same features it might not be that big of a deal to have MS release all updates. Other countries are way more competitive with their carrier choices and I think US will have to evolve because users demand it.
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Just a bit of a correction:
iPhone stayed with AT&T on the domestic market, it is deployed across various providers on the international market.
To be honest I'm very curious about the update process. It's not true that all WP7 devices have got the same features. At the moment I've got HTC Trophy on Vodafone and HTC HD7 on O2. The same system but different search providers in IE, different regional keyboards available, different system languages, different settings for adding email accounts etc.. So it seems like every phone has carrier specific rom and I believe carriers would like to keep it that way. It looks like current roms are miles away from one unified rom as we see on iPhone.
Regardless of how it is made available I have heard that an update including copy /paste will be ready end Jan...
robart76 said:
To be honest I'm very curious about the update process. It's not true that all WP7 devices have got the same features. At the moment I've got HTC Trophy on Vodafone and HTC HD7 on O2. The same system but different search providers in IE, different regional keyboards available, different system languages, different settings for adding email accounts etc.. So it seems like every phone has carrier specific rom and I believe carriers would like to keep it that way. It looks like current roms are miles away from one unified rom as we see on iPhone.
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That's a good point.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk
robart76 said:
To be honest I'm very curious about the update process. It's not true that all WP7 devices have got the same features. At the moment I've got HTC Trophy on Vodafone and HTC HD7 on O2. The same system but different search providers in IE, different regional keyboards available, different system languages, different settings for adding email accounts etc.. So it seems like every phone has carrier specific rom and I believe carriers would like to keep it that way. It looks like current roms are miles away from one unified rom as we see on iPhone.
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Click to collapse
The only thing that matters is that a given program runs on all WP7 phones equally. That's where Apple currently excels and why Android has been called "fragmented". What they look like and what programs are included with a given phone on a given carrier don't matter.
http://windowsteamblog.com/windows_...1/03/10/phone-updates-process-and-timing.aspx
At least somebody has been hired to start saying something
There’s one more thing I want to clear up. I’ve seen a lot of speculation on blogs and forums lately about whether carriers can “block” an update. We work closely with carriers to test and schedule updates. They may ask us for a specific date to start an update. They may ask for updates to be bundled together. But you should ultimately receive all the updates we send out.
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Damn you Carriers!
This short pause should in no way impact the timing of future updates, including the one announced recently at Mobile World Congress featuring multitasking, a Twitter feature, and a new HTML 5-friendly version of Internet Explorer Mobile.
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I sure hope so...
This is just what I expected, But I don't think it can penetrate the people's stupidity. Hopefully this can SHUT some of the people UP.
At least someone at Microsoft said something about the updates, even though it doesn't say a whole lot.
Lets hope they become a bit more vocal about things, instead of relying on rumors to become news.
His post was full of words, but didn't really tell us anything at all. I think he's probably a politician at heart.
1. they test updates at ms
2. carriers also test the updates, some carriers take longer than others
3. carriers can request a certain date updates will be allowed. e.g ATT can send an update a week earlier than Verizon (you will get your update but carrier decides when)
4. updates can sometimes include firmware from specific phone manufactures
5. updates are targetted to specific phones. just because LG phones got an update does not mean HTC phones will get an update. see point (2)
6. the snafu about the last update made them pause to make sure this update goes well.
7. The next update is copy and paste, improved market search and other improvements
what do you mean he didn't say anything?
Wow, I'll be honest, I'm both speechless, and pretty much satisfied.
This is exactly what they should have done. Wow. I'm seriously blown away that Microsoft actually did this. Very impressive.
Good enough for me.
i'm still not satisfied with these explanations. these excuses are to buy time and make microsoft look good. microsoft test update in lab > manufacture and chipmaker test their firmware > carrier test it on their network > users get update. they went thru at least 3 phases of testing and tell me none knows of the issue with samsung wp7? they were way behind schedule and have to rush the update so it wasn't properly test. NoGo was supposed to be out january. still NoShow.
akachay said:
i'm still not satisfied with these explanations. these excuses are to buy time and make microsoft look good. microsoft test update in lab > manufacture and chipmaker test their firmware > carrier test it on their network > users get update. they went thru at least 3 phases of testing and tell me none knows of the issue with samsung wp7? they were way behind schedule and have to rush the update so it wasn't properly test. NoGo was supposed to be out january. still NoShow.
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perhaps, but given your logic shouldn't the manufacturer (that being samsung) had picked it up when they were given the update and told MS about it before it hit a whole lot of samsung users? MS don't create the phones themselves (unlike Apple, which everyone seems to be comparing MS' update system to), so therefore the complexity of the updates in general are increased to a great magnitude with the additional layers that they need to help satisfy.
akachay said:
microsoft test(s) update in lab > manufacture(rs) and chipmaker(s) test their firmware > carrier(s) test it on their network(s) > users get update
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There's a step missing for a good test - between network testing and end users, a quick release to power user early adopters needs to happen.
These are people who ideally have the technical proficiency to help troubleshoot any issues encountered (in other words, they know how to file a bug report, and also how to follow troubleshooting instructions from MS).
Whiny *****es would of course be excluded.
MS used to have a system like this for their MSN software products (such as MSN messenger). I thought it worked really well as a participant, but then they ditched the program - IMHO they invited too many whiny non-technical people and just got sick of placating them.
I really don't think this addresses the issue. Tell me MS didn't know how this would work from the beginning?? If they did know, why did they advertise the system the way they did? They made frequent and aggressive updating as a main feature of WP7. Yet that "aggressive" updating is more like super timid updating.
Either MS didn't know what it was getting into, or they knew and are trying to blow smoke up our rears.
or they knew and are trying to blow smoke up our rears.
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*poots left over smoke out of his arse.
MartyLK said:
Either MS didn't know what it was getting into, or they knew and are trying to blow smoke up our rears.
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I would bet money it's the former.
They probably had meetings, layed it all out on spreadsheets, powerpoint presentations, etc. Had engineers give reports. Marketing specialists chime in on what's needed to win. And they thought it would go smooth as butter.
Ok.. time to give a fack with this guy..
So, was there anything we didn't already know?
The fact that MS had to push a pre update update is amusing, & the update was for every phone not just Samsung. Obviously MS never tested the update process before the launch of WP7. The Samsung issues show that MS & its OEM partners don't communicate well with each other. A good example of this is SD card support, if MS doesn't want it why is it there & how did Samsung get away with putting it in? Is MS not in charge of WP7 & the user experience, which a buggy SD card will impact?
Now, that said, I think it's worse than I thought.
So they need to adjust WP7 OS to every device out there, and with approval from carrier?
So, that means.. that this is almost exactly like Android. Or at least seems like Android. They are going to release tons of phones, and then, forget our humble phones.
Really, do you guys think MS is going to worry with an outdated smartphone? That don't even sell in stores anymore?
Crap ;/
After reading some of the comments posted there, it is clear that folks do not understand that the difference between Apple updates and Microsoft updates is that Apple controls the entire chain from nuts and bolts to software. They are updating ONE piece of hardware.
Microsoft is updating MANY DIFFERENT hardware types from many different manufacturers. Thus, 'issues' will occur.
With this PR blog post having 100+ replies with more than 90% of them being not positive, and Paul Thurrot's "Still No Update" post (which I'm assuming is what pushed MS to respond) having 150+ replies, maybe they'll finally start to "get it".
But I doubt it...
pbratton said:
After reading some of the comments posted there, it is clear that folks do not understand that the difference between Apple updates and Microsoft updates is that Apple controls the entire chain from nuts and bolts to software. They are updating ONE piece of hardware.
Microsoft is updating MANY DIFFERENT hardware types from many different manufacturers. Thus, 'issues' will occur.
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It seems you may not understand why the comparisons are valid. "Chassis 1" was suppose to be MS's answer to Apple so that they, like Apple, could update all phones at once.
Anything extra the OEMs add should be on them (ie. LG with DNLA) and MS should ONLY be responsible for updating the core OS. Acer, Asus, HP and Lenovo all update their own drivers while MS updates Windows. It should be the same exact process with WP7.
BTW, Apple is updating THREE pieces of hardware and many revisions of each. MS is updating ONE uniform OS AND they've been in the mobile OS business since 2003. They should have known how to run things by now.
pbratton said:
Microsoft is updating MANY DIFFERENT hardware types from many different manufacturers. Thus, 'issues' will occur.
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Click to collapse
Also, it's not like MS has no experience here. They've rolled out updates to different hardware types before as part of the Zune updates that have happened occasionally (I think about twice a year, just like Xbox - autumn/spring) since launch.
So yeah, they have carriers in the mix now. That's really the only complexity added over the Zune updates that have been largely trouble-free.
Original Article
BackgroundI don't believe that I need to introduce myself, but if I do my name is P3Droid. I am a phone enthusiast and have been working in the Android platform for 17 months. I have been very lucky in my short time on the Android platform. I think more than anything I have been lucky enough to be in the right places at the right times. The day I first saw and played with the Droid (OG) I thought “that is the ugliest damn phone I've ever played with”. Then I was asked back into the store by my friend (nameless) to get some time with the Android platform and he began to explain to me how open the phone was and how a “smart” person could do anything they wanted to the phone. That turned what I thought was an ugly phone into the sexiest beast ever. I guess that was approximately October of 2009, and I was excited about the possibilities and dove right in without checking the depth of the water.
I spent much of the year on an open phone and an open platform, and sometime in July I picked up a Droid X. I soon found a great bunch of friends and we formed Team Black Hat. Really wanting to break the bootloader, we spent more hours working on it than we did our 9 – 5 jobs. Eventually we came to the conclusion (with help from some unique resources), that we were not going to accomplish our objective. Every so often we still pluck away at it, but we have moved on to other things that will help people enjoy their Droid phones.
Fast forward to October 2010. I'm still in love with the concept of android, and I've done more than my share of developing, themeing, creating ROMS and even hacking. *Having been involved in so many things and having developed some unique contacts, I have been privy to information that is not disseminated to the masses. Some of this information I was asked to sit on. Some information I sat on because I felt it was best to do so for our entire community. You have probably seen me rant on occasion about what I thought the community was doing wrong and causing itself future pain. Each of those days I had received even more disheartening information. So where does this leave me? It leaves me with a difficult choice to make. What to tell, how much to tell, and do I want to give information out that could possible be slightly wrong. I've worked very hard to verify things through multiple sources, when possible, and some other information comes from sources so reliable that I take them at their word.
This brings me up to today. I've tossed and turned regarding how to say this, and how to express all of the information and my feelings in regards to this information. I guess the solution is to just let you all decide for yourselves what you think and what you want to do.
One Shoe Falls
Beginning in July, we (TBH), began hearing things about Motorola working on ways to make rooting the device more difficult. This was going to be done via Google through the kernel. No big deal we thought, the community always finds a way. When Froyo was released and there was no root for some time we became a bit concerned but soon there was a process and even 1-clicks. This was good news and bad news to me, because it simply meant that they would go back to the drawing board and improve upon what they had done.
During this time there were still little rumors here and there about security of devices, and other such things but nothing solid and concrete. Until November.
The Other Shoe Falls
Beginning in October, the information began coming in faster and it had more of a dire ring to it. It was also coming in from multiple sources. I began to rant a little at the state of our community, and that we were the cause of our own woes. So what did I hear?
1. New devices would present challenges for the community that would most likely be insurmountable, and that Motorola specifically – would be impossible to hack the bootloader. Considering we never hacked the previous 3G phones, this was less than encouraging.
2.Locked bootloaders, and phones were not a Motorola-only issue, that the major manufacturers and carriers had agreed this was the best course of action.(see new HTC devices)
3. The driving forces for device lock down was theft of service by rooted users, the return of non-defective devices due to consumer fraud, and the use of non-approved firmware on the networks.
I think I posted my first angry message and tweet about being a responsible community soon after getting this information. I knew the hand writing was on the wall, and we would not be able to stop what was coming, but maybe we could convince them we were not all thieves and cut throats.
Moving along, December marked a low point for me. The information started to firm up, and I was able to verify it through multiple channels. This information made the previous information look like a day in the park. So what was new?
1. Multiple carriers were working collaboratively on a program that would be able to identify rooted users and create a database of their meids.
2. Manufacturers who supply Verizon were baking into the roms new security features:
a. one security feature would identify any phone using a tether program to circumvent paying for tethering services. (check your gingerbread DroidX/Droid2 people and try wireless tether)
b. a second security feature would allow the phone to identify itself to the network if rooted.
c. security item number 2 would be used to track, throttle, even possibly restrict full data usage of these rooted phones.
The Rubber Meets the Road
So, I wish I had more time to have added this to the original post, but writing something like this takes a lot of time and effort to put all the information into context and provide some form of linear progression.
Lets get on with the story. March of this year was a monumental month for me. The information was unsettling and I felt as if we had a gigantic bulls-eye on our backs.
This is what I have heard:
1. The way that they were able to track rooted users is based on pushing updates to phones, and then tracking which meid's did not take the update. There is more to it than this but that is the simple version.
2. More than one major carrier besides Verizon has implemented this program and that all carriers involved had begun tracking rooted phones. All carriers involved were more than pleased with the accuracy of the program.
1. What I was not told is what the carriers intended to do with this information.
3. In new builds the tracking would be built into the firmware and that if a person removed the tracking from the firmware then the phone would not be verified on the network (i.e. your phone could not make phone calls or access data).
4. Google is working with carriers and manufacturers to secure phones, and although Google is not working to end hacking, it is working to secure the kernel so that no future applications can maliciously use exploits to steal end-user information. But in order to gain this level of security this may mean limited chances to root the device. (This item I've been told but not yet able to verify through multiple sources – so take it for what you want)
5. Verizon has successfully used its new programs to throttle data on test devices in accordance with the guidelines of the program.
6. The push is to lock down the devices as tight as can be, but also offer un-lockable devices (Think Nexus S).
The question I've asked is why? Why do all this; why go through so much trouble. The answer I get is a very logical one and one I understand even if I don't like it. It is about the money. With LTE arriving and the higher charges for data and tethering, carriers feel they must bottle up the ability of users to root their device and access this data, circumventing the expensive tethering charges.
What I would like to leave you with is that this is not an initiative unique to Verizon or Motorola, this is industry wide and encompassing many manufacturers.
So what does all this mean? You will need to make your own conjectures about what to think of all of this. But, I think that the rooting, hacking, and modding community - as we know it - is living on borrowed time.
In the final analysis of all this I guess I'll leave you with my feelings:
I will take what comes and turn it into a better brighter day, that is all I can do because I do not control the world.
Disclaimers:
I am intentionally not including any names of sources as they do not want to lose their jobs.
This information is being presented to you as I have received and verified it. *
I only deal with information pertaining to US carriers and have no specific knowledge concerning foreign carriers.
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Thoughts? Is there a future for Rooting?
one sided promise from microsoft (re:updates) is pure fail. all parties should be brought onboard and each held accountable
http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/10/google-partners-with-oems-and-carriers-to-guarantee-android-upda/
Wow, I saw AT&T on the picture, I must relook at it.
It will never happen because all the OEM's and carriers involved seem to want Microsoft and WP7 to fail.
Look at the Zune hardware. My brother had a Zune since Day 1 and he got every update and new release from Microsoft, no problem. I don't think it's a Microsoft issue, I think it's a carrier issue.
Well, that announcement says Android phones will be supported for 18 months. It doesn't say updates will be instant, OEMs won't take weeks to develop ROMs and carriers won't take weeks "testing" them.
vangrieg said:
It doesn't say updates will be instant, OEMs won't take weeks to develop ROMs and carriers won't take weeks "testing" them.
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if you read the live update, it says:
"12:34PM New guidelines! Man, this is going to be huge. Google's laying out a timeline for how long it'll take a device to get updated once a new build is let loose, as well as how long it'll be updated beyond that."
Google and Apple are both more powerful and influential in the mobile space than Microsoft right now. I don't think Microsoft is really in the position to dictate anything to anyone right now.
And what exactly are these guidelines? Three days for a new ROM from HTC with a new Sense on it?
I mean, this is great news for Android, but there's nothing so far that says anything real about what the update experience will be.
I know it's trendy to bash MS, but WP7 has seen four updates already. And the last one was cumulative, by the way.
I don't know, I have been receiving my updates when MS release them; other than the first one that took one or two weeks every other have been the same day (but I’m not in USA).
http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/10/google-clarifies-18-month-android-upgrade-program-details-far-f/
When pressed about how long it'd take updates to flow to phones after given the thumbs-up by Google itself, there's no hard news to report. In fact, the details there are still being hashed out.
To quote Google, "It's a logistics problem." We can only imagine. Trying to get every Android partner to follow a timeline for releases has to be a complete and utter nightmare, but the company seems certain that these stipulations won't cripple anyone's ability to innovate on their skins (or have too little time to make the needed changes).
We would've loved to hear a specific figure that we could start holding phone manufacturers to, but alas, it isn't to be. The only hard number thrown out today is 18 months. That's how long future hardware will be in the support cycle (at least, anyway), so you'll "soon" be able to count on your next Android device receiving all applicable updates for 1.5 years after purchase.
The guideline is yet to be hashed out. That's why they practically included everyone in the group to come up with a guide line. The only reason AT&T is included is because AT&T wants to make sure the final guideline doesn't put it in the spotlight again, like must release updates within 6 months of Google release That will never happen. I'm pretty sure the final guide line will be 12-month (from Google release the code and you see it on your phone), i.e. totally worthless and waste of time. Android is an open source platform, Google has no say about who can use the code and when they need to release the updates. The only thing Google can do is withheld Android market support.
And if they take longer than the set time frame? What happens?
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Nothing would happen. It is called guide line, not rules.
Well then, that'll really be a game changer then... /sarcasm
Where is the news in this?
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munkeyphyst said:
Well then, that'll really be a game changer then... /sarcasm
Where is the news in this?
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Click to collapse
There is none. FWIW MS has "guidelines" on updates as well, i.e. that carriers cannot block two consecutive updates.
-R
I smell a publicity fail from Google.
Well I have a wp7 and an android phone, I have to say there is no reason the OEMs cannot make their addtions such as the sense UI to be a replacement, that can be removed and updated seperately from the core OS. If they did that then it would allow for quicker updates.
In the past there were almost no updates done to phone other than small ones that were carrier specific (ie settings or patches) but major upgrades did not really happen. I would not be surprised if eventually updates to the phones to start costing money, much like a new version of OS X or a new version of windows does on a PC.
It's not a timeline.
It's just enforcing devices to be supported for 18 months.
It doesn't mean the manufacturers/carriers will have x amount of days after an android update to release said update. They can still release a phone with FroYo, and take 17 months to release gingerbread for that phone.
Also, it depends on whether the device's hardware supports the update and knowing Andorid manufacturers like HTC they'll just put a ROM chip too small to take any major updates in the phone, etc. Your Evo 4.0 can't support Sense 3.0? Good luck getting that update! HTC will not "downgrade" an Evo 4G from Sense 2 to Stock Android...
They are still trying to get the details panned out, but I'm not getting my hopes up. There are still phones out there sending SMS/MMS to the wrong contacts because the manufacturers don't even prioritize security updates for their phones (which, IMO, is a MUCH bigger issues than even large feature updates...). Android is a huge, hot mess when it comes to updates.
bill.g said:
Well I have a wp7 and an android phone, I have to say there is no reason the OEMs cannot make their addtions such as the sense UI to be a replacement, that can be removed and updated seperately from the core OS. If they did that then it would allow for quicker updates.
In the past there were almost no updates done to phone other than small ones that were carrier specific (ie settings or patches) but major upgrades did not really happen. I would not be surprised if eventually updates to the phones to start costing money, much like a new version of OS X or a new version of windows does on a PC.
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Are you a developer?
Those aren't themes. They're deep customizations many of which have access to parts of the system that would require a "normal" app to run with Super User permissions. You can't release much of that as an App in the marketplace... Not to mention, they would just end up getting pirated by everyone and at worse breaking a bunch of phones that weren't designed to run the software (freezing them, reboot loops, making them unbootable, etc.).
There's also the issue of drivers, because different manufacturers use dispirate hardware configurations with screens, SoCs, cameras, etc. from dispirate sources. Getting all of that to work on an update is MUCH harder than getting the skins functional.
You people (generally speaking) really think the skins are the issue? They are not. Android (specifically, Linux) is the issue. The skins are easy as hell. The latest Epic 4G Gingerbread Leak has a working TouchWiz, but most of the phone/smartphone functionality is broken. That's a great example on just how easy porting the skins form version to version is. Skins typically aren't that sensitive to kernal ABI changes - device drivers ARE.
The fact that Android is based on Linux by default ensures that updates will have issues because it inherits many of Linux's issues. A Windows Mobile 6.0 update could in many cases just reuse drivers developed for Windows Mobile 5.0the same way Windows 7 can use many Windows XP drivers without any issues.
Linux doesn't have this type of backward/forward compatibility. That's why those leaked updates often have close to nothing working on them (No Wifi, no calls, no this, no that, etc.). Linux doesn't have a stable ABI for driver developers. Kernel updates can break any and/or everything. This means that the turnaround for updates is much longer than it will be for something like WP7.
The biggest issue with Android is the fact that Manufacturers and Carriers do not even prioritize critical security updates, and Google seems intent on not patching and quickly propagating patches for exploits used to root devices. Which is nice for tinkerers, but can be an issue when a malware uses that exploit on someone's device to perform malicious actions...
N8ter said:
It's not a timeline.
It's just enforcing devices to be supported for 18 months.
It doesn't mean the manufacturers/carriers will have x amount of days after an android update to release said update. They can still release a phone with FroYo, and take 17 months to release gingerbread for that phone.
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Click to collapse
I'm pretty sure they said timely updates. Which means they are going to work out some sort of guidelines on how long it takes for the updates to get pushed out. What that actually is remains to be seen though.
http://www.engadget.com/2011/09/15/ballmer-windows-phones-arent-selling-very-well-but-were-not/
Thoughts?
I don't see how it could have been different:
- WP pre-mango is lacking
- advertsing went from light to inexistant
- there haven't been new handsets (ports to other carriers don't count)
- manufacturers aren't bothered
- carriers aren't bothered
- some services and apps are limited to the US
- XBL has been poor overall
- there's a new android phone almost every week
I'm sure I could still go for a bit but yeah, no surprise there.
Peew971 said:
I don't see how it could have been different:
- WP pre-mango is lacking
- advertsing went from light to inexistant
- there haven't been new handsets (ports to other carriers don't count)
- manufacturers aren't bothered
- carriers aren't bothered
- some services and apps are limited to the US
- XBL has been poor overall
- there's a new android phone almost every week
I'm sure I could still go for a bit but yeah, no surprise there.
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Click to collapse
If I were a financial analyst interested in MS's mobile performance for whatever weird reason, I'd certainly ask what's going to be different from now on to change the situation.
If Nokia and Mango are everything Microsoft has to offer, prospects are rather weak in the near term. Nokia is struggling across the world and across the whole line of its products. Mango brings changes which aren't visible easily, and they matter for those who already use the product.
Neither carriers nor OEMs (apart from Nokia) are excited about WP7 any more than they were a year ago. Services are still limited. XBL didn't really change at all. Android handsets will still be popping up every week. There are a few new handsets which will basically replace year-old devices, but Titan and Radar seem to be really overpriced and not anything groundbreaking. Nokia doesn't seem to be able to offer much until next year, one device with limited distribution won't be a game changer.
Improved international presence will certainly increase the numbers, but that will double sales in the most optimistic scenario. Other than that, I don't see anything. Those "hundreds" of salespeople MS is hiring to work with retail worldwide is nothing unless each one of them is capable of being present at hundreds of places simultaneously. That Microsoft will suddenly learn how to do marketing properly is absolutely unbelievable.
vangrieg said:
If I were a financial analyst interested in MS's mobile performance for whatever weird reason, I'd certainly ask what's going to be different from now on to change the situation.
If Nokia and Mango are everything Microsoft has to offer, prospects are rather weak in the near term. Nokia is struggling across the world and across the whole line of its products. Mango brings changes which aren't visible easily, and they matter for those who already use the product.
Neither carriers nor OEMs (apart from Nokia) are excited about WP7 any more than they were a year ago. Services are still limited. XBL didn't really change at all. Android handsets will still be popping up every week. There are a few new handsets which will basically replace year-old devices, but Titan and Radar seem to be really overpriced and not anything groundbreaking. Nokia doesn't seem to be able to offer much until next year, one device with limited distribution won't be a game changer.
Improved international presence will certainly increase the numbers, but that will double sales in the most optimistic scenario. Other than that, I don't see anything. Those "hundreds" of salespeople MS is hiring to work with retail worldwide is nothing unless each one of them is capable of being present at hundreds of places simultaneously. That Microsoft will suddenly learn how to do marketing properly is absolutely unbelievable.
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Click to collapse
Despite all the doom and gloom, I for one am glad I have a choice and am not forced to use an iphone or android if I want a modern smartphone OS. The anti-MS, anti-WP7 bias is real and true (not least here on this forum) but as long as there is a WP OS that is supported by Microsoft, sales numbers and popularity notwithstanding, that is all I will be buying.
Well the fact that Windows phone 7 wasn't selling well was an already known fact. they only manage to get their moneis from royalties.
efjay said:
Despite all the doom and gloom, I for one am glad I have a choice and am not forced to use an iphone or android if I want a modern smartphone OS. The anti-MS, anti-WP7 bias is real and true (not least here on this forum) but as long as there is a WP OS that is supported by Microsoft, sales numbers and popularity notwithstanding, that is all I will be buying.
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Click to collapse
Well, so will I. The topic is about sales though, and I'm not too optimistic about this area now.
I'm sure WP7 won't be abandoned anytime soon so it's not that big of a deal for me personally, but low sales do affect me and you, at least indirectly. I'm less than happy about device selection, for example. Another problem is that MS has been given a lot of credit by developers, but this can't last forever. Sales will have to pick up to keep apps flowing to the platform.
That's what happens when they release a smartphone with no features (no common features of the day).
They can't expect to gain any kind of a market when the competition has everything the user wants and their offerings don't.
MartyLK said:
They can't expect to gain any kind of a market when the competition has everything the user wants and their offerings don't.
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I bet the name of the OS hurt sales 10 times more than the feature set.
As long as WP7 exists and continues to get dev support I'm happy. Zune never caught on, but I was happy with that. When WP7 came out, I passed those on to other family members and they enjoy them. I've come to the point where what you like doesn't affect my enjoyment. Heck, if the WP7 marketplace is compatible with windows 8 I doubt I'd care much if WP7 died.
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macjr82 said:
As long as WP7 exists and continues to get dev support I'm happy.
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Click to collapse
Well that's the thing, if it doesn't sell it will eventually lose dev support so you do need it to succeed somehow.
Peew971 said:
Well that's the thing, if it doesn't sell it will eventually lose dev support so you do need it to succeed somehow.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
..why to be so anxious? Mango is right on the door steps, Samsung, HTC and others are coming with new devices this year. Nokia will be on the market soon...
So the OS and Hardware are at the same level as Apple and Android... And I think you also got the news that WP7 apps will also run on Windows 8...So what do you think the developers will do.....?
macjr82 said:
As long as WP7 exists and continues to get dev support I'm happy. Zune never caught on, but I was happy with that. When WP7 came out, I passed those on to other family members and they enjoy them. I've come to the point where what you like doesn't affect my enjoyment. Heck, if the WP7 marketplace is compatible with windows 8 I doubt I'd care much if WP7 died.
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Click to collapse
well windows phones aren't selling but it isn't due to product its due to a lot of other factors...
I'm not worried. WP7 isn't going anywhere and when Windows 8 and WP8 are released that fact that both will be able share apps will push the sales of WP8 devices.
PCs, Slates, Mobile, Xbox. One UI to rule them all.
FTC said:
the OS and Hardware are at the same level as Apple and Android...
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Click to collapse
Software is pretty close, hardware isn't.
I'm not worried (yet), but it is far too early to assume that we have any kind of guarantee that WP8 will ever be released. It all depends on sales over the next 6 months. If they start to trend upward, then chances are the platform will continue. If they trend downward, carriers and handset makers will lose interest in pushing the phones, and Microsoft may stop development for it. That would not (or should not) affect the direction of Windows 8 for desktops, laptops and tablets, but it could mean the end of Microsoft's involvement in the smartphone business.
Peew971 said:
Well that's the thing, if it doesn't sell it will eventually lose dev support so you do need it to succeed somehow.
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Sorry but this is Microsoft we are talking about. They have too much money to ever lose Dev suport.
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RoboDad said:
I'm not worried (yet), but it is far too early to assume that we have any kind of guarantee that WP8 will ever be released. It all depends on sales over the next 6 months. If they start to trend upward, then chances are the platform will continue. If they trend downward, carriers and handset makers will lose interest in pushing the phones, and Microsoft may stop development for it. That would not (or should not) affect the direction of Windows 8 for desktops, laptops and tablets, but it could mean the end of Microsoft's involvement in the smartphone business.
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Click to collapse
Windows Mobile wasn't really succeeding that much for years and it didn't stop them.
That's true, but the market is different now than it was then. Look how quickly they pulled the plug on the Kin.
And, at its peak, Windows Mobile was quite a bit more successful than WP7 is right now. That's why I think the next 6 months are so crucial.
version numbers dont matter
In this segment, version numbers don't matter. Ms could name it wp99999 (5 9s reference) and no one would care. Its about innovating and unfortunately hardware specs... the UI can only go so far in convincing folks.
Kin has already been mentioned...
I read balmers comments too- that does not sound like an executive with any confidence in a product to me. If he isn't behind it, who is ? Developers won't matter if the os gets the axe from upstairs. Also, it looks very bad to investors and other workers when a failing segment gets money poured into it.
What to do ?
Open the floodgates, subsidize phones for $1 each out the door, and pay off every hardware maker to make more phones.
Will it happen ? Nope.
The people want BOOM! Today, not promises of it sometime soon.
RoboDad said:
I'm not worried (yet), but it is far too early to assume that we have any kind of guarantee that WP8 will ever be released. It all depends on sales over the next 6 months. If they start to trend upward, then chances are the platform will continue. If they trend downward, carriers and handset makers will lose interest in pushing the phones, and Microsoft may stop development for it. That would not (or should not) affect the direction of Windows 8 for desktops, laptops and tablets, but it could mean the end of Microsoft's involvement in the smartphone business.
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Click to collapse
Absolutely no chance MS is just going to just up and stop developing WP7. Especially in just 6 months. First thing that comes to mind is how they approached the original Xbox. Lost millions (if not billions) for years but stuck with it. The outlay for WP7 is hardly in the same territory so cost wise thats not a reason for them.
If OEM's bail, we know Nokia wont be one of them. For them to do a reversal would be the death knell for them so no matter what they are going to stick with WP7, even if they have to give it away.
Another reason is WP is becoming a critical part of the ecosystem MS wants to pitch to consumers and businesses. If they abandon it are they going to be using iphone or android to push MS services and software? Even when WM was unpopular they still had some place for it, I dont see them using a competitor's smartphone as the focus for their software. Its one way they can get consumers and businesses into the MS world (as apple is doing) so it would be hard for them to essentially just give up a crucial way to get more people using Microsoft software and services.
Worse case scenario, I see MS and Nokia going it alone, but when it comes down to it thats not a bad combination. I know this forum would love to see WP7 go away, but history has shown us how persistent MS can be, and this is one sector of the market that is too important to think they would just walk away. Windows Phone is a long, long way from going anywhere.