Hi All,
apologies in advance if I'm asking something obvious...
I haven't purchased the Defy yet as I'm checking if this would be suitable for my wife and I'm struggling to understand the differences with the only other Android device I already own, a Galaxy S.
What I don't understand is this "bootloader locked" concept: it seems to be agreement on the fact that unlocking it is not proving to be an easy feat but exactly how does this "lock" affect the upgradeability of the phone?
I see that there are already several firmwares available, an advanced recovery mode, an application to flash the firmware and few custom ROMs so what's the bootloader for?
I have already flashed a dozen of different ROMs (both official and custom) on my Galaxy and the only thing I need to worry there, is the ROM itself and eventually the kernel...
Thanks for shedding some light on this subject: this phone looks great, far better than the "little" HTC & Samsung
Locked means that no matter what you put on the phone, certain pieces of the firmware have to be signed by Motorola or it will not boot. This makes it incredibly difficult to create fully functional firmwares. For example on Nexus One, new kernels can be compiled from open source, to help enable certain new features in the OS. On a Motorola locked bootloader, you can't load those kernels or it won't boot.
Sent from my Nexus One using XDA App
Thanks for the answer, cmstlist.
What about firmwares 2.21, 2.34 & 2.51 (just to mention the ones I see more in the threads here): are they not fully functional and/or bugged?
As this is going to be my wife's phone I don't plan to tinker much with it (unlike my Galaxy which I never let rest for more than few days ): to be honest Froyo (because of flash support) and the possibility to recover if things go wrong are the only things I'm after
The 2.21, 2.34 and 2.51 releases are fully functional and the latter two do lack much of the Blur features of the stock rom (which is appreciated by many users).
I run the 2.34 for a week now and didn't run into any problems, although there are some aspects of the phone I didn't use yet (e.g. bluetooth).
All of the above mentioned roms are 2.1 Eclair roms.
For the Fryo roms posted the picture is different. I didn't flash a 2.2 release yet, but from what you can read there are some issues. However, maybe someone running a Fryo Defy has more info on that.
Those ROM's are pretty much fully functional, but I guess you can hunt down a bug or two in just about any ROM, on any phone. The only one I've discovered so far (I'm on 2.34.1) is the inability to sync Facebook contacts with the phones contact book.
As you probably know, an official FroYo is on it's way, but there's no telling exactly when it'll be released, sometime during Q2.
I think it's a great phone, a huge bang for the bucks, as it's rugged, water resistant but still really light. And it does it's job, no lag, no freezes, good battery time. I'd recommend it to anyone.
Sent from my MB525 using Tapatalk
The fact that one Froyo build exists, means that devs have something to work around to make other Froyo ROMs. On the other hand, if devs were trying to port Gingerbread? This would be a huge problem, because no matter how many pieces of delicious crispy Gingerbread you stick into this ROM, the kernel is still soft-serve Froyo, and the results will be kind of mushy.
Hmm, I'm hungry now.
Thanks for all the input.
If I understood correctly, in spite of Motorola's bootloader lock, there is development and customization going around this phone and this doesn't prevent new firmwares being flashed.
As the specs look really great and many people on this forum seem to be extremely happy with it I think I'll get one for the missus and we'll soon try how rugged it is with two little devils always trying to get at papa & mama's toys (I had to build a force field around my Galaxy!)
chotto69 said:
Thanks for all the input.
If I understood correctly, in spite of Motorola's bootloader lock, there is development and customization going around this phone and this doesn't prevent new firmwares being flashed.
As the specs look really great and many people on this forum seem to be extremely happy with it I think I'll get one for the missus and we'll soon try how rugged it is with two little devils always trying to get at papa & mama's toys (I had to build a force field around my Galaxy!)
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There is customization, but there just isn't the flexibility to craft entirely new firmwares. You can't simply compile a ROM from source and flash it to this phone... you have to take the compiled ROM, extract pieces of it, inject them into a stock ROM that the phone is signed to accept, pray that it all works, and then come up with dirty little hacks to get around the bits that fail.
But if you want your durable Android, the Defy is still the only game in town. So that's still the selling point. =)
and Motorola will never ever change their policy on locked bootloader.. am i right?
i pretty believe with all the hardwares they have, they can simply double the number of users if they have the same policy as other big name like HTC..
irenic said:
and Motorola will never ever change their policy on locked bootloader.. am i right?
i pretty believe with all the hardwares they have, they can simply double the number of users if they have the same policy as other big name like HTC..
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w w w facebook.com/note.php?note_id=495971028278
What a great question! I'm so glad you asked!
I recently gave in and got my bootloader unlocked on my Verizon R800x, just so I could see what all the hoopla was about. After a few days of analysis, I've already been able to draw some conclusions that I hope new seekers will find useful.
There are several things to know when making a decision like this one.
1. What model of Xperia Play am I rocking? Not all Xperia Plays are created equal. There is the data connection to consider. If you are in most of the world outside of the US, you probably have a carrier that uses GSM for data. So does AT&T and Sprint in the US. Because it is so common, there are lots of Custom ROMS and kernels, unlocking the bootloader is easy, and many people are experienced in supporting GSM. But you're a Verizon Wireless customer? - sorry, you use a CDMA connection, which means your choices are much more limited, unlocking the bootloader is more of a challenge, and people tend to laugh at you!
2. Do I want to use the phone primarily for gaming with that sweet gamepad and not-so-sweet touchpads? Do I really depend on my phone to be 100% useable at all times? Better stick with ROMs and kernels based off of stock. No need to even know what a bootloader is!
3. Or, screw the games, I wanna be big, bad and bold, on the bleeding edge of technology! Well then, plan on furthering your techie education! You're going to be learning all kinds of fun and interesting terms, like soft brick, hard brick, adb, fastboot, flashing , RAM, ROM, push, root and boot - after awhile it all starts sounding like a naughty little party is going on in your phone! Hey, Baby! I got yer bootloader right here, know wut I'm sayin?
How about some do's and don'ts?
DON'T post a question on how to root, unlock the bootloader, install coolappofthemoment.apk or what does any of these terms mean without doing a little research on your own first. Chances are, someone else asked it at least once, probably a million times, and the only responses you're likely to get are "GEEZE, READ THE BLOODY FORUMS, YA N00B!!!"
DO use Google, search the forums, and actually READ the threads that seem relevant to your question. Yes, you will read a more than a few posts like "Does this work yet?", "I don't like the color of...", "MemberX is a troll!", but interspersed in there is quite a bit of information that you may benefit from and often you will find your answer much more quickly than posting a question and waiting for a valid response.
DON'T be afraid of rooting your phone but...
DO be aware that your warranty may (will) be affected by modifying your phone.
DON'T remove anything preinstalled by the service provider until you...
DO a Nandroid Backup first. (There's a term you will want to explore further. Hint: Look into CWM Custom Recovery.)
DON'Tuninstall system apps right away. Instead freeze them (OOOH another term you might want to learn. Hint: Titanium Backup among other apps.) Once you are comfortable with restoring your Nandroid Backup, you understand what the app does, and you experience no issues freezing it, then you can remove it if you want to free up some internal storage space.
DO pay attention to who the developers are for different projects, as well as frequent posters with actual useful contributions. You can tell who they are by the phrase "The Following 9 million Users Say Thank You to UltraDev For This Useful Post:" These are the people you want to make your bestest friends.
WOW !! Who knew there was so much to learn !!! Can't I just skip all that and charge blindly ahead??? I have one word for you. BRICK !!! OK, I have another word for you:
DON'T!!!
After trying the few kernels and Custom ROMs available to me (Yes, I am a lucky Verizon customer), I decided that, for me, it's fun to be able to juggle razors (Get It? Be on the BLEEDING EDGE???), but since some of the things I like to do with my phone are not yet working with the latest and greatest, I'm better off sticking with a customized stock configuration. The great thing is, I can always try the newer stuff and then go back to the "safe" setup.
Oh yeah! I almost forgot! There is one more DO for you, and it's extremely important!
DO click that Thanks button when someone posts a project or information that you find useful. We all want to know our efforts are appreciated, right? RIGHT?????? <<Taps his foot and looks pointedly at the Thanks button>>
Your post reminded me of Excel, of Excel Saga's fame. For that you carved a little nostalgia hole in my rocky heart.
That's going to be very useful, and you had me laughing for 10 mins with the bootloader thing
Sent from my Xperia Play using Tapatalk
I've had my M8 for about 3 months now... As of a month and a half ago I decided that this Sense crap was getting on my nerves. I logged on here only to discover there's almost no discussion, development or anything else going on here. What happened with this device that nobody is doing a 4.4.4 KitKat update or a 5.0 Lollipop AOSP build for it? Did I miss something big that happened here? I don't recall XDA ever being this barron. Especially on an unlockable HTC device.
too many devices
it really has more to do with the fact that there are WAAAAY too many android devices out there. i'm all for the success of android and the phone companies that make them. A few years ago when android was finally getting popular, there were a handful of devices, most developers had the same devices: htc incredible, incredible 2, galaxy, galaxy 2, etc. with everyone having the same phone, mass development took place...now there are so many rootable phones out there it is difficult to get all the devs on one device. if you have 20 developers and 4 phones to choose from you get a lot of development on each phone....if you have 20 devs and 20 phones to choose from....well, you get it. best advice is when a new device comes out DO NOT run out and buy it the first minute you can slam the money down on the counter and walk away with it. wait a few days...a week...maybe 2....check back on XDA and see what device starts getting the most development. go buy that phone. =]
on a side note, there is a fair amount of development that goes on in the world wide m8 forum area that this forum stems off of. if you read the posts it is easy to adapt your US m8 to use any of those roms. also, viper rom has a decent amount of constant development as well. i have been using this rom for quite awhile and to be honest...it rocks. if youre not using it give it a try. there are tons of customizations to keep you happy =)
go check out the M8 section http://forum.xda-developers.com/htc-one-m8
After rooting and flashing your recovery you can install pretty much any M8 ROM. Sure the T-mo has WiFi calling but I'm not sure what else it has.
OR you can run your own launcher, get the xposed architecture and start tweaking your stock ROM to do what you want it to do. That was the best method for me as it still runs incredibly stable and I was able to get the majority of the features I wanted like loosing most of sense.
Theoriginalgiga said:
go check out the M8 section http://forum.xda-developers.com/htc-one-m8
After rooting and flashing your recovery you can install pretty much any M8 ROM. Sure the T-mo has WiFi calling but I'm not sure what else it has.
OR you can run your own launcher, get the xposed architecture and start tweaking your stock ROM to do what you want it to do. That was the best method for me as it still runs incredibly stable and I was able to get the majority of the features I wanted like loosing most of sense.
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That's it right there. All gsm M8 development is over on there. Also I few sense roms have wifi calling in them.
Hello guys!
I had experiences with several brands. I gave up Samsung due to the Knox Counter and Sony due to the DRM keys. The best experience so far I had with my late Nexus 5! How easy is to customize the HTC 10? I never had HTC's before. Regarding ease of customization, bootloader unlock and warranty how does it go? I am about to return an Axon 7 and maybe exchange it with a 10.
Thanks in advance!
gibawatts said:
Hello guys!
I had experiences with several brands. I gave up Samsung due to the Knox Counter and Sony due to the DRM keys. The best experience so far I had with my late Nexus 5! How easy is to customize the HTC 10? I never had HTC's before. Regarding ease of customization, bootloader unlock and warranty how does it go? I am about to return an Axon 7 and maybe exchange it with a 10.
Thanks in advance!
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Click to collapse
Assuming you have the Verizon model....Once you use Sunshine to S-Off this phone the world is your oyster. Great/robust dev community and help/support/guides to assist you through anything you want to do with your phone.
The combination of the above and that HTC makes what I think are the most gorgeous looking and well built phones...it's been a win win for me since my Thunderbolt lol
gibawatts said:
Hello guys!
I had experiences with several brands. I gave up Samsung due to the Knox Counter and Sony due to the DRM keys. The best experience so far I had with my late Nexus 5! How easy is to customize the HTC 10? I never had HTC's before. Regarding ease of customization, bootloader unlock and warranty how does it go? I am about to return an Axon 7 and maybe exchange it with a 10.
Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've had a huge amount of devices, ( look at my sig and you'll see) and I've always come back to HTC, reason being is that they offer something a little different, but what's more they always have the most talented developers and the oldest serving, on XDA, Villain rom, etc, they always come up with the goods.
Not to mention that the root, unlocking of the bootloader and s-off (if you s-off) is reversible. Samsung is not, as it has an efuse chip as does the nexus too AFAIK.
There literally isn't anything you can't change on this device and with pretty much any other htc device, if you've had a htc before and gone on to something else, Sony or Sammy are good examples, you'll always be looking back over the fence, and when a new HTC comes out you'll just hate your current device, eg: I got rid of a six month old nexus 6P for this 10
Just unlock the bootloader, s-off if you must or want to, I believe that you can flash firmwares easier with it switched off, it's £20 so not great but it always works, install a custom recovery and flash away.
In terms of roms, Venom probably offers the most comprehensive list of tweaks and mods but LeeDroid is equally as good and as customizable, perhaps not with the length of venom tweaks but still great. Other roms I can guess are similar and when CM is completely fixed, well start seeing CM, AOSP and similar roms heading for us too.
In short, the answer to your question is a huge yes, I don't think I'll ever get another Samsung or Sony again, nothing wrong with them, they're just not for me and I'll miss HTC if I do.
Stripped, themed, ghostpeppered, and running like a bat out of hell....
.
bakemcbride21 said:
Great/robust dev community and help/support/guides to assist you through anything you want to do with your phone.
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Click to collapse
I hope I can piggy-back off of this thread just a bit.
When you refer to the developer community for HTC, are you referring particularly to here on XDA-Developers, or in general everywhere? I'm thinking of getting an HTC 10, but I'm wondering the best/simplest way to keep it going with Android updates well past HTC's stated support period. I haven't done anything with my HTC Incredible S, but I'm looking to be a bit more proactive with my next phone. What are some of the more stable ROMs that you--or anyone else, for that matter--would recommend to keep this phone continually updated for years to come? Longevity is important to me.
SlowRain said:
I hope I can piggy-back off of this thread just a bit.
When you refer to the developer community for HTC, are you referring particularly to here on XDA-Developers, or in general everywhere? I'm thinking of getting an HTC 10, but I'm wondering the best/simplest way to keep it going with Android updates well past HTC's stated support period. I haven't done anything with my HTC Incredible S, but I'm looking to be a bit more proactive with my next phone. What are some of the more stable ROMs that you--or anyone else, for that matter--would recommend to keep this phone continually updated for years to come? Longevity is important to me.
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Long time Samsung user here. I got my US unlocked HTC 10 a few months ago. Best phone I ever had. Would not even consider an S7 in comparison.
The two primary Sense-based Roms for the 10 are Viper and LeeDroid. I've tried both and prefer Viper. I think that would be your long-term solution. Get an unlocked 10 if you can afford to for maximum flexibility and choice of service providers. Unlock the bootloader, S-Off, and flash Viper. You can't go wrong in my opinion.
BTW, this is just a general discussion thread. Each Rom, Kernel, recovery, etc etc have their own dedicated threads where you'll find in-depth info.
Aurelius99 said:
The two primary Sense-based Roms for the 10 are Viper and LeeDroid.
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Are there any inherent advantages of a Sense-based ROM in terms of stability or ease of installation? Sorry for such a pedestrian question, but is there anything as simple as good ol' Nexus-style vanilla Android, or is that something that's even too easy to be asking about?
Thanks guys, still considering the 10. Now I am between the 10, 6P and Pixel XL. The painful fact is that I am currently with no phone. When I went to return the Axon, there were no 10s in stock at the store. The wait for the Pixel is just killing me! And to worsen things a bit, I just ran into a 128 GB Nexus 6P. I am a real sucker for OLED screens you, know? That is why I still didn't buy the 10.
SlowRain said:
Are there any inherent advantages of a Sense-based ROM in terms of stability or ease of installation? Sorry for such a pedestrian question, but is there anything as simple as good ol' Nexus-style vanilla Android, or is that something that's even too easy to be asking about?
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Gawd, I could never go back to stock. Most people want a custom Rom firstly to get rid of all the bloatware installed by their service providers. Apps you'll never use, sitting there taking up space and even running in the background. Then there is the customizing you can do to set up your phone just how you want it. However, HTC has promised us that they will be providing us with a Rom upgrade to Android 7 in a couple of months and that Rom may be nice as-is. Bottom line - if you want maximum control over your 10, go custom. If stock meets your needs stay with that.
Aurelius99 said:
Gawd, I could never go back to stock. Most people want a custom Rom firstly to get rid of all the bloatware installed by their service providers. Apps you'll never use, sitting there taking up space and even running in the background. Then there is the customizing you can do to set up your phone just how you want it. However, HTC has promised us that they will be providing us with a Rom upgrade to Android 7 in a couple of months and that Rom may be nice as-is. Bottom line - if you want maximum control over your 10, go custom. If stock meets your needs stay with that.
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I'm sorry, I may not have been clear. I was asking about a Sense-based ROM vs. stock Android (not stock Sense). I'd like it as simple, stripped down, and Nexus-like as possible, but I don't know how much tinkering each modder does with their various ROMs. I also want a ROM from a modder who will support it down the road for several Android versions, but I seem to have an answer to that question already. What I don't understand yet is the likelihood of stock/vanilla Android running smoothly on the HTC 10. Is that what's being called AOSP, or is that something else entirely?
(For what it's worth, I'd be getting the international version, called the M10h, I believe.)
SlowRain said:
I'm sorry, I may not have been clear. I was asking about a Sense-based ROM vs. stock Android (not stock Sense). I'd like it as simple, stripped down, and Nexus-like as possible, but I don't know how much tinkering each modder does with their various ROMs. I also want a ROM from a modder who will support it down the road for several Android versions, but I seem to have an answer to that question already. What I don't understand yet is the likelihood of stock/vanilla Android running smoothly on the HTC 10. Is that what's being called AOSP, or is that something else entirely?
(For what it's worth, I'd be getting the international version, called the M10h, I believe.)
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AOSP is the Android Open Source Project. Yes, this is sometimes referred to as the "stock" Rom. Google provides the code base for the stock Rom. Various developers use this code base and then add their own code enhancements to produce an extended version of the stock Rom. Most custom Roms are Cyanogenmod-based. This is the company that has put their particular twist on the stock Rom. A Sense-based Rom is yet another enhanced version of the stock Rom. Both use the same AOSP code base and customize it in various ways and for various phones.
Some people actually do prefer the more standard stock Rom for various reasons. It is simpler and typically more robust for dealing with the limited and specific tasks it was designed for. A good custom Rom can be just as robust as stock in every way, but also allows the user to do much more with the phone. It can be overclocked to run much faster, have better audio, a highly customizable user interface, and so on.
Viper, on the Sense-based side, and Resurrection Remix on the Cyanogenmod-based side are both better than the stock Rom in my view and people using those Roms get many more updates to their Roms via the developers than stock Rom users do. Some developers are still producing custom Roms for the Samsung SII -- a very old phone that Samsung dropped support for years ago.
Check this out for the HTC 10:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/htc-10/development/rom-21-02-viper10-1-0-0-tweaks-hub-t3379151
Aurelius99 said:
A Sense-based Rom is yet another enhanced version of the stock Rom. Both use the same AOSP code base and customize it in various ways and for various phones.
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Click to collapse
Can I assume a Sense-based ROM will have a better chance of everything working properly (ie. camera, NFC, audio, etc.) since it's starting off with something further down the fork in AOSP designed specifically for the HTC 10? Or am I misunderstanding how ROMs work?
SlowRain said:
Can I assume a Sense-based ROM will have a better chance of everything working properly (ie. camera, NFC, audio, etc.) since it's starting off with something further down the fork in AOSP designed specifically for the HTC 10? Or am I misunderstanding how ROMs work?
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Haha, you're really doing your research.
Yes, a sense based ROM is less likely to have bugs, however bugs are usually listed in the OP of every rom thread. A matured AOSP ROM won't have anything broken, but things may not work as well or as intended by HTC.
I think sense based is the way to go with this device, lots of good features HTC has developed that work well with the phone like the camera application and blinkfeed. Not to mention the polished look of the phone in general and the underrated theme store, it just works well together. You'd lose all of that with AOSP, not so much key features not working.
BadUsername said:
Haha, you're really doing your research.
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Yes. It's my most annoying characteristic, according to my wife. Now I just have to find a developer who keeps things simple & stable, and who will support it until 2021.
Thanks for your replies. And I apologize to gibawatts for hijacking this thread a bit. I hope it was still useful for you, too.
Did you guys decide?
It's still $150 off, which assisted me in my decision to go from the Nexus 5 to the htc 10 (and a nice, even doubling for us OCD types).
My short answer: the htc 10 is ever-so-slightly less customisable than the Nexus 5; I've installed everything on it that I had on the Nexus (SuperSU, Xposed, Gravitybox, Xprivacy, AdAway, etc.). N-ify works on it.
My only "issue" so far is that GravityBox can't remove the Calculator and Extreme Power Saver quicktile htc put there..real fine points here. (I've only had the thing 2 days, so there may be more but no show-stoppers for a purist like me). Sense 8 is more like an alternative launcher than an overhaul like TouchWiz or old versions of Sense. Wife likes it (coming from her N5/NovaLauncher) and I'm giving it a whirl.
Manual firmware updates would be the only caveat AFAICT but that is still better than what I had with N5: OTAs broke and I just never installed them due to lack of interest...not a habit I want to carry with me, however. My point being that the Nexus 5 was actually more of a hassle to me to update than what this seems like it would be (though I've not tested it yet but there's much discussion on the procedure here).
Wife is attached to OLED (SIII had a wonderful display) but she likes the htc 10 display and did not like the N5 display.
I love the feedback you guys got/gave here. This here is a model XDA thread.
I would just like to add that HTC's Sense ROM is quite bare-boned compared to other non-Nexus OEMs. Compared to the Axon, it'll look almost like a Nexus device.
Everyone else pretty much covered the other important things. I'd like to point out that CM/AOSP/Vanilla ROMs for the HTC 10 are still a bit down the road and they still need quite a bit of work, so when you get it, expect to either stay with Sense, or Sense-based custom ROMs for at least the next few months. No complaints on that from my side. Even if you do eventually flash CM/AOSP/Vanilla ROMs, I'll wager that you'll end up downloading some of HTC's apps, like Camera, Gallery, and Music. They blow away vanilla Android apps and 3rd party alternatives.
samisax said:
Compared to the Axon,...
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ZTE being mod-hostile turned me off to them; they have to establish a solid history of unlock/mod-friendliness for me to even look at them. (No, a press release stating that they would, in the future, answer questions from CyanogenMod folks to develop their ROM doesn't win me over in any way whatsoever.)
I surmised that the OnePlus 3 was too customised to be considered a Nexus spiritual successor (it was the phone I wanted to like/buy). Really, they only need to make good hardware and just use already-made AOSP and spend dev time getting drivers and such primo to have a winner (and with lower overhead) rather than trying to reinvent the wheel that nobody will want. It's like they're trying to sorta be Nexus and sorta be Sense/TouchWiz/et al but is there really a market for that? Is there really no market for Nexus? (I dunno...the Pixel thing has me befuddled and the no-more-Nexus thing has me ferhoodled.)
So, yeah, I'm liking the htc 10, which, being both funny and sad, I didn't even look at. My wife mentioned it and the $150 off, so we took a look and got'em. (I was still soured by my Evo 3D experience that led me to use then-Best Buy's 30-day return policy)
One more tid-bit I neglected to mention earlier: I'm glad I got the unlocked/dev version...no issue getting official RUUs all official-like, officially. I don't ever want to deal with "carrier" stuff.
P.S. Good to know about the camera, gallery, and music apps. Those are important to my wife (I'm happy with those being "functional" but also happy to just have the same software between us..easier to maintain and to answer her questions).