http://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries
No trickle charge is applied because lithium-ion is unable to absorb overcharge. A continuous trickle charge above 4.05V/cell would causes plating of metallic lithium that could lead to instabilities and compromise safety. Instead, a brief topping charge is provided to compensate for the small self-discharge the battery and its protective circuit consume. Depending on the battery, a topping charge may be repeated once every 20 days. Typically, the charge kicks in when the open terminal voltage drops to 4.05V/cell and turns off at a high 4.20V/cell.
What happens if a battery is inadvertently overcharged? lithium-ion is designed to operate safely within their normal operating voltage but become unstable if charged to higher voltages. When charging above 4.30V, the cell causes plating of metallic lithium on the anode; the cathode material becomes an oxidizing agent, loses stability and releases oxygen. Overcharging causes the cell to heat up. If left unattended, the cell could vent with flame.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This means that the batteries are most likely FAULTY or have DEGRADED OVER TIME from using TRICKLE CHARGING on a LITHIUM-ION battery. (See quote below)
Quote below is from this thread: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=906144
willy900wonka said:
Kernel Devs, here's what I found, with pictures to document it.
Li-ion batteries are protected by current limiter chips. SBC kernels cannot exceed safe charging limits because the chips preclude ( stop) it. At the end of the post is a reference to the chip which controls the amperage and voltage, to and from the battery.
I decided to look inside one of my extended $10 3500ma EVO batteries, in order to see how SBC kernels could impact the battery.
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I took a series of pictures. Most were 10x and the chip number was 60x. Please be sure to check them.
VV - The four familiar contact pads for the battery.
VV - The picture (at 10x) below is of the chip which controls the operation of the battery.
It is surrounded by the red tape.
VV- The numbers on the controller chip are readable at 60x. Note
it says 8205A, and a mfg (date) code.
What I found was that a 8205 chip is used to provide protection and prevent over charging and over-discharging. Here is a quote from a google search.
Since the batteries are hardware protected, SBC kernels cannot overule and exceed the protection.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
swatspyder said:
http://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries
This means that the batteries are most likely FAULTY or have DEGRADED OVER TIME from using TRICKLE CHARGING on a LITHIUM-ION battery. (See quote below)
Quote below is from this thread: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=906144
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
From the quote and thread I came to the conclusion that trickle charging could not damage the battery due to the chips that automatically shut it off. Unless the chip itself is damaged.
That's indeed what the author of the second part was intending to inform everyone.
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
craigbailey1986 said:
From the quote and thread I came to the conclusion that trickle charging could not damage the battery due to the chips that automatically shut it off. Unless the chip itself is damaged.
That's indeed what the author of the second part was intending to inform everyone.
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
and the blind lead the blind... why do people listen to those who don't know what they are talking about instead of the experts?
Because that's what you want to hear.
Let me help you see it...
"A continuous trickle charge above 4.05V/cell would causes plating of metallic lithium that could lead to instabilities and compromise safety."
"Overcharge detection voltage is 3.55V..4.4V with 25mV accuracy."
Is 4.05V higher than 4.4V?
This should hold true however using the batteries internal protection to keep all safe is not a good way to charge. This should be done by the charger and/or software. Battery protection is last resort.
Also, since yet another thread on this has been started, I have to pose another question. Is SBC actually trickle charging the battery or doing a float charge?
From everything I have read on trickle charge the voltage would exceed 4.2v and possibly hit 4.3v for a time. Float charging should take it to 4.2v and then charge at very small rate to keep the battery full. The plating in the battery and damage to the cells, from what I have read, are the result of exceeding 4.3v. With the SBC this doesn't seem to happen and temps stay in range. Ranges are never exceeded, at least not on mine and the other reports I have seen.
Originally I thought the SBC method of charging would damage the battery and switched to a different kernel. But the more I read, the more I am still undecided. We really need a qualified expert to examine this method and make a determination cause this stuff can get complicated.
xHausx said:
and the blind lead the blind... why do people listen to those who don't know what they are talking about instead of the experts?
Because that's what you want to hear.
Let me help you see it...
"A continuous trickle charge above 4.05V/cell would causes plating of metallic lithium that could lead to instabilities and compromise safety."
"Overcharge detection voltage is 3.55V..4.4V with 25mV accuracy."
Is 4.05V higher than 4.4V?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes it would be, but monitoring battery charts that I have seen I have not ever once seen anyone voltage read that high after 100%. I'm no expert on battery engineering, but sharing what I have come across. Wouldn't we see a lot more toasted batteries if they were hitting 4.4 volts, over protection.
That said, I have been using SBC since it was released. I charge my phone every night for anywhere from 6-9 hours, constant.
My battery has not exploded, there is no fire, my panties are still hanging on my hips, and I've experienced no battery loss.
Like I said though, I'm no expert just sharing the facts I do have.
barnacles10 said:
That said, I have been using SBC since it was released. I charge my phone every night for anywhere from 6-9 hours, constant.
My battery has not exploded, there is no fire, my panties are still hanging on my hips, and I've experienced no battery loss. .
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Charge via USB or AC charger over night?
deathsled said:
Charge via USB or AC charger over night?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
AC - <~ (10 char)
I've been running SBC since he was still testing it and had rough versions, even then he kept it under 4230mV, the highest I've had mine is 4228mV, ive continually charged it for 5 days straight to test long term (AC) with no ill effects, the worst ive had is an episode where the phone wouldn't turn on for a few hours and no charge light when plugged in, I admit it was my fault that caused it because I hadn't cycled the plug after it was plugged in when I rebooted
I still have the same battery, it still lasts just a long, I still use SBC kernels, I feel they are safe, I will report if my battery fails so until then carry a backup if your unsure about using them and enjoy the extra charge
barnacles10 said:
Yes it would be, but monitoring battery charts that I have seen I have not ever once seen anyone voltage read that high after 100%. I'm no expert on battery engineering, but sharing what I have come across. Wouldn't we see a lot more toasted batteries if they were hitting 4.4 volts, over protection.
That said, I have been using SBC since it was released. I charge my phone every night for anywhere from 6-9 hours, constant.
My battery has not exploded, there is no fire, my panties are still hanging on my hips, and I've experienced no battery loss.
Like I said though, I'm no expert just sharing the facts I do have.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Over voltage is not the problem since all li-ion batteries have protection from that. It's over saturation that they are saying will damage it.
When it starts running out of lithium to ionize it will begin chemically changing the battery and electro-plating the anode. If it happens too much that anode plating can cause an internal short.
xHausx said:
Over voltage is not the problem since all li-ion batteries have protection from that. It's over saturation that they are saying will damage it.
When it starts running out of lithium to ionize it will begin chemically changing the battery and electro-plating the anode. If it happens too much that anode plating can cause an internal short.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Battery protection is not full proof on the batteries end though. Just a last resort. The other thread about this has a lot of good info from engineers coming out
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
I'm gonnnaa go ahead and uninstall that SBC kernel....
adamantypants said:
I'm gonnnaa go ahead and uninstall that SBC kernel....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
Related
i just got my 3500 battery for my evo i charged it over night but when im using it today it seem like im using my stock bettery 4 hrs already down to 68 percent. i didnt talk much and i didnt surf much watch little bit of youtube.
so many variables, kernels and all that. try calibrating, full charge and resetting batt stats if you didn't already.
madflasher said:
so many variables, kernels and all that. try calibrating, full charge and resetting batt stats if you didn't already.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So I need to go recovery and clear through there?
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
culua said:
So I need to go recovery and clear through there?
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you could do that or theres an app for it. basically the same thing.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1024867
madflasher said:
you could do that or theres an app for it. basically the same thing.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1024867
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you.
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
I am having the same issue, and from what I have been told, you MIGHT need an external battery charger to get the battery to FULLY charge. Something with the Evo stops the extended batteries from fully charging to their capacity.
There are many of us who believe that the algorithm used to determine battery charge capacity is flawed. When the 3500 mah battery is truly filled to capacity, battery life is amazing. I go through a routine to get my Seido 3500 to completely charge. Place the battery monitor widget on your main homescreen (it is free to download from the market) I charge it until the LED turns green or until the battery monitor widget alerts me audibly. Yes, it can be set to emit an audible alert when the battery reaches 100%. Afterwards, I unplug and wait 60 seconds. If after 60 seconds the battery monitor widget displays less than 100%, I resume charging. I repeat that process until after 60 seconds the widget still displays 100%. Once that happens, I can easily get over 24 hours of use from my battery. My routine is somewhat tedious, but it is effective. Like others have stated, a dedicated charger for the Seido may work better. Anyway, I use this same routine with the stock battery. I hope I was helpful to you.
posting & replying via the XDA Premium app
dougjamal said:
There are many of us who believe that the algorithm used to determine battery charge capacity is flawed. When the 3500 mah battery is truly filled to capacity, battery life is amazing. I go through a routine to get my Seido 3500 to completely charge. Place the battery monitor widget on your main homescreen (it is free to download from the market) I charge it until the LED turns green or until the battery monitor widget alerts me audibly. Yes, it can be set to emit an audible alert when the battery reaches 100%. Afterwards, I unplug and wait 60 seconds. If after 60 seconds the battery monitor widget displays less than 100%, I resume charging. I repeat that process until after 60 seconds the widget still displays 100%. Once that happens, I can easily get over 24 hours of use from my battery. My routine is somewhat tedious, but it is effective. Like others have stated, a dedicated charger for the Seido may work better. Anyway, I use this same routine with the stock battery. I hope I was helpful to you.
posting & replying via the XDA Premium app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think I will give your method a try and see if that will work for me. I get approx. 5-6hrs on what shows a full charge on my 3500ma battery at this point.
I charge my battery til light is green, then leave it on for ~2 hrs. Look at the waveform on bmw. You'll notice after the charge level reaches 100%, the mA waveform looks like a saw tooth waveform. Initially it will be a high frequency pattern, then it will begin to slow down... Once it reaches this slow down state, that's when I consider my phone charged.
Here's a visual of what I was referring to above. The phone's on the charger the whole time, unused (idling), screen off.
mA on top, % on bottom.
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Same graph, mA on top, mV on bottom
to add another method to the mix it's similar, not trying to knock on any of the others mentioned at all
I found that the most accurate way to utilize the BMW for a full charge is reading the mA's..
..after either placing widget on home screen or activating >menu>settings>monitoring preferences>monitor without widget>history update rate>60sec..
..then after light turns green check mA's in history it will be positive mA until it goes from triple digits to double then single when it reaches zero its at capacity/full then it will stop charging and start to go into negative mA. unless its a sbc kernel it should keep bumping a single digit mA if nothing is keeping it awake..
..unplug at zero and it will stay at 100% for a long time on a extended battery. best I got was 10 hours (at100%) with minimal use and 5 with moderate on a 2400mAH.
madflasher said:
to add another method to the mix it's similar, not trying to knock on any of the others mentioned at all
I found that the most accurate way to utilize the BMW for a full charge is reading the mA's..
..after either placing widget on home screen or activating >menu>settings>monitoring preferences>monitor without widget>history update rate>60sec..
..then after light turns green check mA's in history it will be positive mA until it goes from triple digits to double then single when it reaches zero its at capacity/full then it will stop charging and start to go into negative mA. unless its a sbc kernel it should keep bumping a single digit mA if nothing is keeping it awake..
..unplug at zero and it will stay at 100% for a long time on a extended battery. best I got was 10 hours (at100%) with minimal use and 5 with moderate on a 2400mAH.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I, too, watch the mA using the battery monitor widget (bmw) and many of us used to charge the battery and wait until the mA dropped to 0. The problem is that many of us could never get to 0 or by the time it got to 0 the phone had been charging for about 8 hours...of course I'm being overly dramatic here...lol...The point is this: when the phone's LED initially illuminates indicating a full charge, chances are it is not full and you will have to employ some additional charging methods to truly get a completely charged battery. Several methods have been offered here. Pick one or try them all and then decide which one is acceptable to your tastes and patience level. Take care.
posting & replying via the XDA Premium app
@madflasher, your battery history log is indicative of a SBC kernel. Is that what you are using?
A non sbc kernel has a bump type strategy, while sbc is trickle.
gpz1100 said:
@madflasher, your battery history log is indicative of a SBC kernel. Is that what you are using?
A non sbc kernel has a bump type strategy, while sbc is trickle.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
gpz! you are correct. nice catch! My bad I should have stated that...to go along with what works for others this is what worked for me but like I said, was just adding another method to the mix...I know the debate on sbc can get pretty heated...there's so many variables when it comes to battery life
Hello, one question, I've always tried to charge my new phones a whole day before using, I've been told that by doing that, you improve battery's performance, my Samsung galaxy S3 is coming today, and I'd like to know once and for all, is this true? Do I really need to give it a 24 hours charge to make it work the best? To be honest, I do not believe it, but I've been doing it with all my phones so far, just to stay on the safe side, hahaha, anyway, please let me know...thanks in advanced!
Not necessary, just a waste of electricity
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2
24 hour charge? Sure, blow up your battery. /joke
Overcharging your battery is NEVER good.
Once it's at 100%, unplug it.
Anything over what it takes to reach 100% is always going to be overkill.
Sent from my SGH-T999
theexel said:
24 hour charge? Sure, blow up your battery. /joke
Overcharging your battery is NEVER good.
Once it's at 100%, unplug it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
These phones aren't smart enough to stop drawing current? Even my iPad 2 is......
psykhotic said:
These phones aren't smart enough to stop drawing current? Even my iPad 2 is......
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I believe there's a kernel tweak floating around that allows charging up to a certain amount of percentage, but I'm not sure it stops drawing current.
I don't believe so.
Of course the phone stops drawing current when it's at 100%
Sometimes I can't believe the ignorance on xda.
You can leave it plugged in forever, nothing bad will happen.
ingenious247 said:
Of course the phone stops drawing current when it's at 100%
Sometimes I can't believe the ignorance on xda.
You can leave it plugged in forever, nothing bad will happen.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh yeah? So why can't you leave a laptop plugged in all the time with no Ill effects? Of course there are steps taken to prevent overcharging but you can't leave in plugged in forever without ill effect.
Sent from my SGH-T999
The 24hour charged was on old phones, before lithium ion battery came around so your good
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2
joshnichols189 said:
Oh yeah?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah.
joshnichols189 said:
So why can't you leave a laptop plugged in all the time with no Ill effects?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't know, maybe because you have an OLD laptop?
joshnichols189 said:
Of course there are steps taken to prevent overcharging but you can't leave in plugged in forever without ill effect
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Even if that were true, I believe the OP said 24 hours.. Hardly what I would consider "forever"
I leave my phone plugged in all night while I sleep and until I leave for work the next morning, every night, which is at least 5-8 hours depending on how much sleep I get that night. Been doing that since my MyTouch 4G, which I still have, as well as my GS2, and now my GS3. All of them work great and still get the same battery life they always did.
The most important factor in charging your device is the temperature the battery stays at. If, for some reason it is in a heightened temperature state, such as leaving it plugged in all night while downloading a ****load of torrents, then yeah it could damage the battery since you're prolonging the time the battery stays warm.
Otherwise you're fine.
He's not asking if it will hurt the phone, he's asking if it's necessary, and the answer is no
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2
psykhotic said:
These phones aren't smart enough to stop drawing current? Even my iPad 2 is......
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ingenious247 said:
Of course the phone stops drawing current when it's at 100%
Sometimes I can't believe the ignorance on xda.
You can leave it plugged in forever, nothing bad will happen.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No need to call anyone ignorant nor impy that.
This certain topic about the effects of battery charging, usage, etc. have been discussed all over the forum.
I was simply stating what I have read and researched.
As you may have I read, I said I wasn't sure.
Overcharging Lithium-ion
Lithium-ion operates safely within the designated operating voltages; however, the battery becomes unstable if inadvertently charged to a higher than specified voltage. Prolonged charging above 4.30V forms plating of metallic lithium on the anode, while the cathode material becomes an oxidizing agent, loses stability and produces carbon dioxide (CO2). The cell pressure rises, and if charging is allowed to continue the current interrupt device (CID) responsible for cell safety disconnects the current at 1,380kPa (200psi).
Should the pressure rise further, a safety membrane bursts open at 3,450kPa (500psi) and the cell might eventually vent with flame. The thermal runaway moves lower when the battery is fully charged; for Li-cobalt this threshold is between 130–150C°C (266–302°F), nickel-manganese-cobalt (NMC) is 170–180°C (338–356°F), and manganese is 250°C (482°F). Li-phosphate enjoys similar and better temperature stabilities than manganese.
Lithium-ion is not the only battery that is a safety hazard if overcharged. Lead- and nickel-based batteries are also known to melt down and cause fire if improperly handled. Nickel-based batteries have also been recalled for safety concerns. Properly designed charging equipment is paramount for all battery systems.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And I totally respect your reply and if you're correct, then I learned something new today.
If this is something that the Android kernel has built in, a "safety charge limit" sort-to-speak, then great.
The information you're posting there is what would happen IF there were no safeguards in place
But, alas, there are.
And you're right, my apologies for the hot headed comment. Sometimes when I see people posting misinformation and then being downright adamant about it when someone is asking for real advice, it irritates me.
And although you are right, it is NOT necessary, I do believe I have seen instructions to do so from a couple of phone instructional or "quick start" booklets, including the GS2
I'll have to check it later to see (I still have all the original guides/paperwork)
---------- Post added at 12:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:21 PM ----------
Matter of fact, I just ran a quick Google search, and yes - it's true.
Many phone mfg's tell you to charge it for 24 hours on the initial charge..
ingenious247 said:
Yeah.
I don't know, maybe because you have an OLD laptop?
Even if that were true, I believe the OP said 24 hours.. Hardly what I would consider "forever"
I leave my phone plugged in all night while I sleep and until I leave for work the next morning, every night, which is at least 5-8 hours depending on how much sleep I get that night. Been doing that since my MyTouch 4G, which I still have, as well as my GS2, and now my GS3. All of them work great and still get the same battery life they always did.
The most important factor in charging your device is the temperature the battery stays at. If, for some reason it is in a heightened temperature state, such as leaving it plugged in all night while downloading a ****load of torrents, then yeah it could damage the battery since you're prolonging the time the battery stays warm.
Otherwise you're fine.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Of course leaving it plugged in over night won't hurt, but I highly doubt leaving it plugged in for extended periods of time will have no ill effects. Also I don't consider a laptop from 2011 to be very old..
Sent from my SGH-T999
ingenious247 said:
The information you're posting there is what would happen IF there were no safeguards in place
But, alas, there are.
And you're right, my apologies for the hot headed comment. Sometimes when I see people posting misinformation and then being downright adamant about it when someone is asking for real advice, it irritates me.
And although you are right, it is NOT necessary, I do believe I have seen instructions to do so from a couple of phone instructional or "quick start" booklets, including the GS2
I'll have to check it later to see (I still have all the original guides/paperwork)
---------- Post added at 12:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:21 PM ----------
Matter of fact, I just ran a quick Google search, and yes - it's true.
Many phone mfg's tell you to charge it for 24 hours on the initial charge..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ah, gotcha.. nice find. Thanks, bud. :highfive:
So I guess it's not necessary nor required, but often recommended. :good:
joshnichols189 said:
Oh yeah? So why can't you leave a laptop plugged in all the time with no Ill effects? Of course there are steps taken to prevent overcharging but you can't leave in plugged in forever without ill effect.
Sent from my SGH-T999
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have my 3yr old laptop charged / plugged in 24/7. Battery still lasts ~ 3-4 hours on performance mode. This is a 9-cell. So no I don't believe there are any ill effects with modern batteries. I've always left my phones plugged in over night and I know it stays plugged in after 100% for hours before I unplug it. Battery life is always the same. It's only ever bad depending on the rom/kernel I use.
no need however
saman0suke1 said:
Hello, one question, I've always tried to charge my new phones a whole day before using, I've been told that by doing that, you improve battery's performance, my Samsung galaxy S3 is coming today, and I'd like to know once and for all, is this true? Do I really need to give it a 24 hours charge to make it work the best? To be honest, I do not believe it, but I've been doing it with all my phones so far, just to stay on the safe side, hahaha, anyway, please let me know...thanks in advanced!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
U don't have to leave pluggled that long but one thing is tru that before u plug ur phone for the 1st time u have to drain the battery to zero and the charge it fully...
Mr_Jay_jay said:
U don't have to leave pluggled that long but one thing is tru that before u plug ur phone for the 1st time u have to drain the battery to zero and the charge it fully...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's not actually true either
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Charge_and_discharge
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So, let's say it's not recommeded since the benefits are none, right? should I fully charge it and the use it or use it until it discharges, and the charge it for the first time? thanks for all the comments!!
I got a powerbook in 05 and left it plugged in for 4 years with no problems.. my MBP has been plugged in since 09 with no problems.
Slimkat won't turn on after reboot
I was running latest Slimkat (8/28) and rebooted the phone using the reboot menu option from holding the power button. It was plugged into a charger at the time.
A while later I noticed it still wasn't on. I tried pressing buttons, holding the power button for 30 sec., etc. The phone was a little warm before I did the reboot, not sure if that is part of the issue.
Has anyone had their phone unable to be turned on after a reboot? Any solutions?
Thanks in advance.
I can't post in the development forums yet, so forgive me if this post is in the wrong place.
A "little warm" during usage (watching videos / gaming) or charging is not unusual.
If you're using something like a TPU case, the heat from the back of the phone can't esacpe that quickly...
Running SlimKat for a week now, several reboots and complete power off. No problems.
What was your battery percentage when you started charging / at the time of the reboot?
Does it show the "charger icon" / battery percentage when you plug in the charger now or is there no reaction at all?
Discussions about custom ROM related issues are supposed to be in "General" or "Q&A / Help", so you chose the right place. (The development forum is meant for actual DEV material only)
Bingo Bronson said:
A "little warm" during usage (watching videos / gaming) or charging is not unusual.
If you're using something like a TPU case, the heat from the back of the phone can't esacpe that quickly...
Running SlimKat for a week now, several reboots and complete power off. No problems.
What was your battery percentage when you started charging / at the time of the reboot?
Does it show the "charger icon" / battery percentage when you plug in the charger now or is there no reaction at all?
Discussions about custom ROM related issues are supposed to be in "General" or "Q&A / Help", so you chose the right place. (The development forum is meant for actual DEV material only)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for the reply.
The phone is unresponsive when plugged into a charger. No battery logo, doesn't seem to be charging (no heat).
I just tried plugging it into my Windows PC, and device manager is saying:
"A request for the USB device descriptor failed."
No response plugging it into a mac.
timosaur said:
The phone is unresponsive when plugged into a charger. No battery logo, doesn't seem to be charging (no heat).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yikes. Faulty hardware, worst case scenario? But from what you described, quite likely...
Did you buy it from one of the big Ebay deals or directly from Amazon? I think it's time to contact "them".
Bingo Bronson said:
Yikes. Faulty hardware, worst case scenario? But from what you described, quite likely...
Did you buy it from one of the big Ebay deals or directly from Amazon? I think it's time to contact "them".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
????????? The phone seems to have come back to life, after trying random chargers. The current charger started charging after maybe 30 minutes of no response.
The battery is charging from 0%. I know when the problem occurred yesterday, battery was nowhere close to 0. So the battery had to drain and reset somehow.
Thanks for all the help. I did buy from Amazon, and I'm within my return period... still on the fence if I should return or not.
timosaur said:
The phone seems to have come back to life, after trying random chargers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can you check the Amazon charger with a multimeter? Maybe he's responsible...
Let's see if it charges properly and also how fast the battery drains afterwards.
Bingo Bronson said:
Can you check the Amazon charger with a multimeter? Maybe he's responsible...
Let's see if it charges properly and also how fast the battery drains afterwards.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I was using a third party charger, I'll check when I get the chance. Not sure how to measure those tiny pins
timosaur said:
I was using a third party charger, I'll check when I get the chance. Not sure how to measure those tiny pins
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I had to go back to stock charger when running slimkat.
Bingo gave me something to think about though. How well do these phones handle high temps/how well do they cool down? I can count on one hand how many random reboots I've had. Strangely it hasn't occurred when playing high res video. But my case, which I really like, provides little to no ventilation (glass on front and back, plastic wrapped with thick rubber on the side). I'm reluctantly going to ask--should I find a case that at least opens up the back?
I'm having no issues aside from common bugs with the custom Roms. But I don't want to slowly cook this thing either. Anyone know about the heat sink we have?
timosaur said:
I'll check when I get the chance. Not sure how to measure those tiny pins
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's just me being nosy ^^ You could measure it directly from the USB port of the charger (the outer pins).
KLit75 said:
How well do these phones handle high temps/how well do they cool down? [...] But I don't want to slowly cook this thing either. Anyone know about the heat sink we have?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I remember that case, KLit75, I believe it was from the "clunky tank" series. The Snapdragon 800 starts throttling around 145.4 °F, iirc.
A case like this slows down the cool down process, no doubt, but a "naked" phone can get just as hot on the inside.
I guess there's a small advantage with a naked phone as long as the surrounding temperature is low enough to make a real difference and keeping it a bit cooler in the long run.
My default settings keep the CPU around 82 - 88 °F for things like browsing, maximum was 113 °F when playing videos for a longer time with MX Player (HW+ codec setting).
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Heat sink, M'Lady?
I think I will remove the back cover, rip out the NFC connector, apply some copper foil and drill some holes in the back (Homer Simpson style) for elite cooling results. :laugh:
@Bingo Bronson, above and beyond with the info! Many Thanks!!!
Follow up on CPU settings: (since this thread is getting slightly off the track already ^^)
Since we have to use the voltages (see pic below) provided by the Kernel, I guess I don't save much battery life with these settings, less heat most likely, since the max. freq. is limited the whole time and the Governor scales down faster.
But then, there's also this:
tech_head said:
Please don't confuse voltage with current.
The voltage at which a part runs does not equal power. Power (Watts) = V (voltage) x I (current).
Low voltage threshold processes are used for high performance and high voltage threshold processes are used for low power.
LVT processes have higher leakage and consume more power, not less than the HVT process.
You can draw no conclusion based on the operating voltage, except that the HPM will potentially have higher leakage and therefor a possible higher current draw with all things being equal. It also has a higher clock frequency potential.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Keeping the input boost freq. low may have a little impact on battery life when you have a lot of interaction with the screen, as in "much tapping ➜ much boost ➜ much CPU".
Even with the currently lowered settings, I get "only" 3 days battery life with mobile data enabled.
I will lower my max. freq. to the same as input boost freq., both set to 960 MHz @ 800 mV and see how it goes (with the CPU set this low, it might be even worse since it needs more time to compute a task ^^)
Yes, I'm aware that these settings only qualify for basic phone & messaging usage.
Bingo Bronson said:
That's just me being nosy ^^ You could measure it directly from the USB port of the charger (the outer pins).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Haha the charger that caused the issue is one of those direct to microusb chargers.. the ones without a USB port. Never trusting one of those again.
Bingo Bronson said:
I will lower my max. freq. to the same as input boost freq., both set to 960 MHz @ 800 mV and see how it goes (with the CPU set this low, it might be even worse since it needs more time to compute a task ^^)
Yes, I'm aware that these settings only qualify for basic phone & messaging usage.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How did the 960 go? I've been running at a 1.5Ghz max and I've been happy with it running over a day. I can't find input boost in the app I'm using but would that explain why the CPU jumps over 1.5 sometimes?
timosaur said:
Haha the charger that caused the issue is one of those direct to microusb chargers.. the ones without a USB port. Never trusting one of those again.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep, had a similar experience with one for my Raspberry Pi 2. It worked for ~ 3 hours, then the Pi didn't boot up. I bought a "good" charger with 5V / 2.4A, turns out he delivered 4,5x volts at best, s#it happens sometimes...
How did the 960 go? I've been running at a 1.5Ghz max and I've been happy with it running over a day...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's decent, right now 46% charge left since unplug, I had multiple longer calls yesterday and some more than ususal texting, needed to take some phots with flash...
Performance is enough for basic tasks. The "multicore power saving" is another thing...
I wonder if it uses less voltage, I guess the voltage indications are meant for "all cores active" but how much lower is the voltage with only 1 core active, if at all...
I can't find input boost in the app I'm using but would that explain why the CPU jumps over 1.5 sometimes?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, that explains it.
Input boost is usually set to max. freq. so that the CPU goes "full throttle" everytime the screen is tapped (for that fluid Android experience ^^).
Limiting it may have (some) benefits for "heavy tapping" users.
Side note: I flashed the SlimKat v2015/09/15 build at 95% charge.
Side side note: I started using the 960 MHz setting at around 78% charge.
So I have the wireless charging mod and I have several wireless chargers “All the same brand and model” I mostly only use two. The one beside my bed and the one at work. I know this is going to sound crazy but when I use the charger beside my bed and charge to %100 the battery life is not nearly as long. It is enough to be VERY noticeable I have tested and compared like 6 times. Charging on both to 100% and just let the phone sit for an hour and when it is charged by the one beside my bed it drains about 20% faster. Can a charger effect battery life in this way????
Based on my experiences... yes!
enetec said:
Based on my experiences... yes!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've never had that happen till now. I wonder if that particular charger is going bad or something
X_man. said:
I've never had that happen till now. I wonder if that particular charger is going bad or something
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Experiment... swap the chargers? bring the work one home and vice versa? maybe different mains or "dirty mains" could be the culprit? see if the issue follows the charger or area?
Uzephi said:
Experiment... swap the chargers? bring the work one home and vice versa? maybe different mains or "dirty mains" could be the culprit? see if the issue follows the charger or area?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Great idea! I'll do that next week and post what happens.
X_man. said:
Great idea! I'll do that next week and post what happens.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Any time. I personally ran into that. It wasn't 20% more like 5% (average 3hr drain on my old Rezound was 2hrs and 45mins when charged from work. It was due to ingress on my work's lines that wasn't there at home. We had little oddities with some PC's until we found the UPS for our server was causing noise on our circuits).
This is absolutely normal. I build custom vape systems, some on li-poly Batts, some on li-ion. In both cases, charge rate -can- drastically affect charge effectiveness.
Most of this in your case likely has to do with thermal reads. Remember, not only is your phone and charger loaded with chips to be smart and safe about the charge, the battery (and sometimes individual cells within it) are also microchipped. Wireless charging creates a lot of heat. Should any one of the three components recognize this heat as excessive, the voltage will drop. I _believe_ this is most relevant during the end of "saturation" phase during charging, because if the battery says "no" during this phase, or anytime after (during completion/final) , the charger's subsequent "topping-charge" will also be denied. This kind of results in cycle of the charger saying "take it!" , The battery saying "no", dropping the voltage, the charger seeing the drop and expecting it to need a top-off and immediately trying to push again, repeat. The reason you're seeing the difference is because the charger is getting it's numbers from current output from the battery. The battery can drop down to zero current when overheated to prevent thermal rail? From occurring, which the charger then translates " 0 current must mean full".
That's one part of the difference, and not necessarily what is occurring... The other part has to do with manufacturing intent. Most USB 3.1/c power supplies are actually pushing out the maximum amperage and thus has a huge stage-1 charging state, with a minimum stage-2 (saturation) charging state. This basically translates into , your charger and phone are both lying when you rapid charge.
I'm sure I'm missing some facets or misrepresenting them here as I can't remember all the damn physics, but short story is: for absolute saturation, battery life, battery runtime, and safety... Charge at the same rate as battery discharge.
Edit: also what Uzephi mentioned about dirty power is also relevant. When power factors are not near 1.0 (1:1, meaning everything drawn is used, and everything requested is given), bad sh*t happens. This actually relates to the physical wave (sinusoidal) of electricity. All the anomalies are probably listed somewhere by some physicist, but suffice to say, there's a lot of possibilities, none of them "good" when out-of-phase power factors occur. This is why sensitive equipment almost always gets run through a power conditioner. The more sensitive and volatile the system, the more aggressive the conditioner needs to be (hence massive amplifiers for sound systems like the ones I use in my work need $200 glorified power strips).
Some_Donkus said:
This is absolutely normal. I build custom vape systems, some on li-poly Batts, some on li-ion. In both cases, charge rate -can- drastically affect charge effectiveness.
Most of this in your case likely has to do with thermal reads. Remember, not only is your phone and charger loaded with chips to be smart and safe about the charge, the battery (and sometimes individual cells within it) are also microchipped. Wireless charging creates a lot of heat. Should any one of the three components recognize this heat as excessive, the voltage will drop. I _believe_ this is most relevant during the end of "saturation" phase during charging, because if the battery says "no" during this phase, or anytime after (during completion/final) , the charger's subsequent "topping-charge" will also be denied. This kind of results in cycle of the charger saying "take it!" , The battery saying "no", dropping the voltage, the charger seeing the drop and expecting it to need a top-off and immediately trying to push again, repeat. The reason you're seeing the difference is because the charger is getting it's numbers from current output from the battery. The battery can drop down to zero current when overheated to prevent thermal rail? From occurring, which the charger then translates " 0 current must mean full".
That's one part of the difference, and not necessarily what is occurring... The other part has to do with manufacturing intent. Most USB 3.1/c power supplies are actually pushing out the maximum amperage and thus has a huge stage-1 charging state, with a minimum stage-2 (saturation) charging state. This basically translates into , your charger and phone are both lying when you rapid charge.
I'm sure I'm missing some facets or misrepresenting them here as I can't remember all the damn physics, but short story is: for absolute saturation, battery life, battery runtime, and safety... Charge at the same rate as battery discharge.
Edit: also what Uzephi mentioned about dirty power is also relevant. When power factors are not near 1.0 (1:1, meaning everything drawn is used, and everything requested is given), bad sh*t happens. This actually relates to the physical wave (sinusoidal) of electricity. All the anomalies are probably listed somewhere by some physicist, but suffice to say, there's a lot of possibilities, none of them "good" when out-of-phase power factors occur. This is why sensitive equipment almost always gets run through a power conditioner. The more sensitive and volatile the system, the more aggressive the conditioner needs to be (hence massive amplifiers for sound systems like the ones I use in my work need $200 glorified power strips).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Some very good points! Doesn't seem quite as strange now LOL Thanks!
@Some_Donkus than for your complete explanation...
I've found even "about same rate" chargers (measured on phones...) often differs in heating battery: on my old Moto Z, the OnePlus X charger and the Samsung Galaxy Tab one both charged my phone (quite fast...), BUT the first heated it A LOT more, while the second hot A LOT itself!!
I think it's related to components quality too...
What I don't undestand well is why the Incipio MotoMod battery, which charge the phone at quite low rate, is able to heat it more than fast chargers....!?!?
enetec said:
@Some_Donkus than for your complete explanation...
I've found even "about same rate" chargers (measured on phones...) often differs in heating battery: on my old Moto Z, the OnePlus X charger and the Samsung Galaxy Tab one both charged my phone (quite fast...), BUT the first heated it A LOT more, while the second hot A LOT itself!!
I think it's related to components quality too...
What I don't undestand well is why the Incipio MotoMod battery, which charge the phone at quite low rate, is able to heat it more than fast chargers....!?!?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Without knowing the specific charge voltage and stage setup of the individual batteries it's tough to speculate. One thing that comes in mind relates back to the power factors I was speaking of. It might actually be a high quality device that just has a lot of extra MOSFET + capacitors built in. These are used in order to "clean and manage" power on the fly. Capacitors are used to provide extra little bumps of discharge / supply when the battery cells themselves can't necessarily output enough mA/amp in a peak. MOSFETs do the opposite, providing a safe gateway for extra unused power either coming into the device from the battery, or from outside power to charging battery...
Both of these little guys basically are giant heat retainers (MOSFETs actually usually have heatsinks pasted to them, even the micro sized ones used in small devices)....
Just a thought.
Some_Donkus said:
...
Just a thought.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, it surely could be but two weird things still happen with Incipio battery MOD (and, they say, NOT with the new Turbo Power which do fast charging instead! ):
- the overheat seems to be coming from the phone and not from the battery MOD...
- the Incipio battery MOD I have adds wireless charging too to the phone. What it's weird is that wireless charging phone (by the same rear connector on the phone) seems to overheat it less than using battery to charge it... (and battery charge rate is a bit lower...).
I think it could be related from the fact that battery MOD has probably to raise his voltage to charge phone... but strangely this overheats more phone than battery...!
enetec said:
Well, it surely could be but two weird things still happen with Incipio battery MOD (and, they say, NOT with the new Turbo Power which do fast charging instead! ):
- the overheat seems to be coming from the phone and not from the battery MOD...
- the Incipio battery MOD I have adds wireless charging too to the phone. What it's weird is that wireless charging phone (by the same rear connector on the phone) seems to overheat it less than using battery to charge it... (and battery charge rate is a bit lower...).
I think it could be related from the fact that battery MOD has probably to raise his voltage to charge phone... but strangely this overheats more phone than battery...!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ohhh, I see what you're saying...
Okay well, from what I understand, the Incipio Wireless mod actually charges the phone's battery first, THEN the pack within the mod. By default, magnetic induction (wireless charging method) actually will charge everything and anything within the field simultaneously.. but.. what I assume the incipio mod does is this....
Wireless charger sends out induction wave > (Induction wave charges both internal battery and mod for a moment) > Incipio mod get's a mV current reading from phone's internal battery > If internal phone battery mV current is ≠ 0, Incipio mod uses MOSFET's to gate-drain incoming charge from wireless for X amount of time (and possibly send charge to internal battery via connectors) + > induction wave continues to charge internal phone battery > Incipio takes another mV current reading from phone battery to see if it's full >>>
Cycle continues until Incipio gets mV current reading = 0, at which point it stops using gate-drains and accepts induction wave charge.
^^^ -IF- that's accurate, then it would mean that the Incipio mod is passing it's charge into the phone battery (received from induction wave) at the same time that the internal phone battery is receiving the induction wave from pad... So that internal battery is receiving a shiz-load of joose quickly...
again, pure speculation.... but it would make sense...
So I charge my phone today from 32% to 100% in 1 hour and it seems like from the videos other guys get a 0-100 charge for that time. So I was thinking that either I have slower because I am using a UK-to-EU adapter for my charger (got it from UK) or that this speed is the typical one. What's your speed guys?
I like to charge my phone slowly (less than 10W - 3-5H charge) overnight which helps improve battery life.
More info here : https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/ultra_fast_chargers
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1C charge means 1 hour charge from ~0 to 100%.
2C charge means 30 min charge.. Why would you want to do that to your battery (half capacity at 500 recharges)?
Overnight at C/3 to C/5 does great things for the longevity.
The state of the phone also matters. Wifi, bluetooth, mobile data, music, video, apps, brightness, photo, camera, sensor, power save, battery temperature, surrounding climate, ... etc.
Adapters may also have their maximum output capped. Check on it's spec.
panoz said:
I like to charge my phone slowly (less than 10W - 3-5H charge) overnight which helps improve battery life.
More info here : https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/ultra_fast_chargers
View attachment 5332861
1C charge means 1 hour charge from ~0 to 100%.
2C charge means 30 min charge.. Why would you want to do that to your battery (half capacity at 500 recharges)?
Overnight at C/3 to C/5 does great things for the longevity.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How do you achieve this?
pl1992aw said:
The state of the phone also matters. Wifi, bluetooth, mobile data, music, video, apps, brightness, photo, camera, sensor, power save, battery temperature, surrounding climate, ... etc.
Adapters may also have their maximum output capped. Check on it's spec.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The adapter doesn't have any specs unfortunately. I just bought a EU charger from Aliexpress. Hopefully it charges faster.
stavrosbin said:
How do you achieve this?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Root with Magisk and use Advanced Charging Controller (acc) module.
https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/advanced-charging-controller-acc.3668427/
Or use old USB charger with the ampere lower, like 2.0A or lower.
That is achieved with slower charging.
PC USB socket most likely will charge VERY slow, to the point that you want it to charge faster.
stavrosbin said:
The adapter doesn't have any specs unfortunately. I just bought a EU charger from Aliexpress. Hopefully it charges faster.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You will likely need to buy chargers made by Xiaomi if you want even faster charging.
Some technologies will need to match if you want them work at fullest.
pl1992aw said:
Root with Magisk and use Advanced Charging Controller (acc) module.
https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/advanced-charging-controller-acc.3668427/
Or use old USB charger with the ampere lower, like 2.0A or lower.
That is achieved with slower charging.
PC USB socket most likely will charge VERY slow, to the point that you want it to charge faster.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh I had this magisk module on my Oneplus 5T. Guess I will just download that and its app. Do I need to do anything to make it work like you are saying? I thought it only regulated charging speed for V and temperature.
pl1992aw said:
You will likely need to buy chargers made by Xiaomi if you want even faster charging.
Some technologies will need to match if you want them work at fullest.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah this charger is supposed to be legit. Will wait and see when I get it.
Just like the Redmi Note 10 Pro and Poco X3 Pro, among other Xiaomi phones, the Poco F3 battery supports 33W Mi Fast charging and the phone ships with a 33W adapter and a 3A-rated cable.
stavrosbin said:
Oh I had this magisk module on my Oneplus 5T. Guess I will just download that and its app. Do I need to do anything to make it work like you are saying? I thought it only regulated charging speed for V and temperature.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It has the ability to control and lower the current (unit in mAh default). To make the current controled, you apply the set current and then reboot.
You can read the README in github for more info.
You have to test it though, I can't.
Use app Ampere to confirm the charging speed.
stavrosbin said:
So I charge my phone today from 32% to 100% in 1 hour and it seems like from the videos other guys get a 0-100 charge for that time. So I was thinking that either I have slower because I am using a UK-to-EU adapter for my charger (got it from UK) or that this speed is the typical one. What's your speed guys?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have successfully charged my device from 0-100 in 18 minutes record. But that fried my battery within 15 days.
Had replied some similar questions.
Some info may be useful to read:
So what is the best android charging habit...?
So I bought POCO X3 Pro earlier this month...So I play games on it mainly and the question is which kind of charging habit is better? 1.Frequently charging to make the percentage between 50%-100% 2.Charge it to 80-90 and try not make to make it...
forum.xda-developers.com
stavrosbin said:
How do you achieve this?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As correctly said by pl1992aw, I use an old 1A adapter that goes from 20% to 100% in under 5 hours.
With the same strategy my Tab Note 10.1 (not 2014) still has a working battery although it's of no use anymore..
pl1992aw said:
It has the ability to control and lower the current (unit in mAh default). To make the current controled, you apply the set current and then reboot.
You can read the README in github for more info.
You have to test it though, I can't.
Use app Ampere to confirm the charging speed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Okay thanks a lot man
Saazmusic said:
I have successfully charged my device from 0-100 in 18 minutes record. But that fried my battery within 15 days.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hahaha that's really overkill I don't want this kind of treatment.
Also charging speed changes based on battery percentage to make battery last longer
The idea with a low power charger to extend the battery life is really nice, cause i usually charge my phone over night and don't want to stress my battery for nothing.
stavrosbin said:
Hahaha that's really overkill I don't want this kind of treatment.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah nobody should want this. I used to mess in the kernel & alter the charge controlling voltage & current values. Soon I realised and concluded that charging a lithium battery with high voltages(9v fast charging) or high current significantly degrades the life of the battery. In addition, charging the battery upto 80% increases the life of battery by 4x in comparison to charging it upto 100%. Phone brands play a trick on us keeping their planned obsolescence marketing in their hands. Now I happily charge my phone with old 1 amp charger. It does slow but the battery wear data is really satisfying.
Saazmusic said:
Yeah nobody should want this. I used to mess in the kernel & alter the charge controlling voltage & current values. Soon I realised and concluded that charging a lithium battery with high voltages(9v fast charging) or high current significantly degrades the life of the battery. In addition, charging the battery upto 80% increases the life of battery by 4x in comparison to charging it upto 100%. Phone brands play a trick on us keeping their planned obsolescence marketing in their hands. Now I happily charge my phone with old 1 amp charger. It does slow but the battery wear data is really satisfying.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To add, fast charge is for convenience and emergency eg. forgot to charge at night and need to rush in the morning.