Develop Bugs

Copyright issues - A_C's S2U2 probem

Hi all,
I'm just a junior member and have no autual authority in the XDA-Developers Community so I hope this is the right place to put this thread. Moderators, please move it if I've got that wrong. I've just read this thread in the Development and Hacking forum:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=425167
and it raised some concerns in my mind which could present some fairly serious threats to the nature of this forum (i.e. developers' willingness to get involved). Here's a copy of what I posted, entitled "We NEED to see the bigger picture":
OK, I have read through this thread fairly quickly and I have some observations and some suggestions to make. Let me say that I am more of a “user” than a developer but I have made a few very small contributions on XDA-Developers. Please check my stats if you want to. Let me also say that I always look at the “bigger picture” in these situations.
Unfortunately what has happened to A_C over S2U2 is a consequence of capitalism. Businesses exist for the purpose of making money and extending their business. It is not so much a matter of trust or character but that the very purpose of a business is to make money and nothing else. The situation we’ve been presented with does however raise some concerning issues.
There are technicalities and more technicalities which people will continue to use to make money out of products and items of value they did not produce themselves. I don’t think anything we can say to businesses will prevent them doing this. For all the arguments we can present, they will have others and there would be little we can do to stop them TRYING to use freely developed software in this way. Businesses will have more money than we have to promote “their” products, and as we’ve already seen, unless we have a pro-bono lawyer, they will have more money for to defend their business and sales through the law and search engine optimisation (which is a very big business by the way!).
The point I am trying to make is that while this may be an isolated incident right now, there’s nothing to stop this happening again and again. We may well have “lost” A_C despite all the genuine and heart felt encouragement directed towards him so it seems to me that if we want to protect what we have, an environment where developers feel free to develop software for themselves and “us” with our support, we need to do more. What can we do?
We do have two critical factors on our side:
1) Community
2) Technical Expertise
Community - A community has a much greater power to change it’s destiny than any one individual – as demonstrated by the unfortunate situation A_C finds himself in. If we all pull together, or even just those of us more committed to this community, we will be able to overcome much more than we currently realise.
Technical Expertise – As stated above, I am not a developer but I am convinced that there is more technical ability available to this community than many software businesses could pay for with their entire budget, or even turnover.
I believe we must make use of these two strengths or suffer the consequences.
My basic suggestion is that a working group is set up from developers who contribute to this community with the sole purpose of writing a code which can be inserted into any ROM or software which clearly states that the software/ROM has been developed free of charge, and that if the “customer” has paid for it then they should ask for a refund and contact XDA-Developers to report the licence violation and receive the full free version of the software. Once developed this code can then be made available, with instructions, to any new developers who start to submit work to the community so that they don’t fall foul of the same experience as A_C.
Additionally could this code be hard coded into the software/ROM so that unscrupulous software sales companies can’t take it out (I.E. not just a .gif or .jpg splash that can be changed or removed)?
As this is a forum, the next step would be for people to share their views on these suggestions and we’ll see what happens!
Best wishes to A_C – hope you’re not feeling too bad.
I’m going to post this in the general forum as a new thread if there’s not one there already.
andrew-in-woking
I hope that this thread will engender some constructive discussion and lead to a better community for all of us.
Best wishes,
andrew-in-woking

the problem with adding code, is that it adds bulk. the classic example is Cubase audio software, where it is estimated that 50% of cpu power can be wasted in it constantly checking it's protection; and even this has been cracked by geniuses, though i think they have since 'retired' from the scene. anyway, i digress. with space at a premium with phones, getting into copy protection, nag screens, etc. is removing that space. plus from own experience and feedback from users, nag screens and reporting fraud options will get ignored. as 9 times out of 10 they have seeked the software out through unscrupulous sources. add to that, a developer has spent months streamlining their code, only to bolt on some fugly security, kinda depressing.
i dont think there is or will ever be a clear cut solution to copyright im afraid, i mean, look at windows lol.

I had no idea this was happening. Thanks for the heads up.

badaas said:
the problem with adding code, is that it adds bulk...
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I think the OP's suggestion is a good one. It doesn't need to be anything complicated or over the top. Simply text in the About screen will suffice.
I.e.
Help>>About>>"Widget v.1.xx, Developed on XDA-Forums as FREEWARE - If you've paid for this please report the seller to the proper authorities"

i think adding in the freeware statement would be a plus i think if A_C decided to add it in down at the buttom when you first start up S2U2 where it states what verison this is and A_C name would be a good time to have it scroll. If there were some way to have it keep marqueeing while the program is running or for it to do it when the screen wakes up i think as users of A_C's product it wouldn't affect me seeing this because the programs are just that great

[Q] Implement Reputation System?

Hey guys (mostly the senior/mod/admin folks, but anyone feel free to chime in). Could XDA implement vBulletin's (I think there is an official plugin/option... I may be wrong about this though; I cannot say for sure since I am not an admin on any site that uses vBulletin, $user = phpbbWhore reputation system? If it's not built into the latest version of the code, I'm sure there is a 3rd party plugin available from VBulletin's official site (I know of at least a few of those that exist and would help if needed).
My thought behind this is that sometimes someone posts some really useful information and adding a reply that says something like "+1 thanks!" almost seems like a waste of a post to me (I really dislike "filler"/OT threads, but I still want to give the person credit). However if I was able to give a person a point (+) or if someone was just being a jerk for no reason (-), I think more people would take the time to think before they posted. Plus, since we know "post count" mean nothing in terms of someone being a helpful person or not, this would allow new users to spot trustworthy/reliable folks.
My only qualm is that I don't know if XDA as a whole is mature enough to use this kind of system responsibly, but I have faith that any real abusers could be weeded out fairly quickly. I think it would be cool to at least trial run this. Thanks for your time .

Hi DeeBG,
Yeah, it's good idea generally, thou i'd prolly advocate XDA going a step further right off the bat, and implementing a point trading system as a supplement to the donate buttons, especially for those without easy access to paypal credit.
Reputation has issues when someone on the fringe of the group is battered down for being different. Like imagine someone says "Let's make an iPhone section!". They might lose a years reputation in like a day. At least with a point trading system you're dealing with actual assistance or virtual services, rather than base emotional responses or crowd bullying.
I'm still learning about XDA's donate system, which seems fairly arbitrary or opaque. Maybe someone can explain how well that system is working out so far.
Cheers.

Reputation is built into vB, looks like they opted to turn it off. Good thing, every forum I've been a part of / admin'd, it's been abused.

I7redd said:
Reputation has issues when someone on the fringe of the group is battered down for being different. Like imagine someone says "Let's make an iPhone section!". They might lose a years reputation in like a day. At least with a point trading system you're dealing with actual assistance or virtual services, rather than base emotional responses or crowd bullying.
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The reputation system only works through "thanks", doesn't it? So your reputation cannot get worse, but only better.
I7redd said:
I'm still learning about XDA's donate system, which seems fairly arbitrary or opaque. Maybe someone can explain how well that system is working out so far.
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It's not much of a system - you can donate directly to xda, which will help cover costs of running the servers, or you can donate to individuals (like me ) whose work you like.

Well there are really two types of systems. One is where you can give a thumbs up or thumbs down on a comment (sometimes represented by a [+] or [-] sign), and then there is the "Thanks" system, as seen on such sites as http://androidforums.com.
I agree that the first system can and sadly usually is abused (I think I saw it work well on one private torrent site I used to belong to a long time ago). There is a somewhat "pack mentality" that some users can fall into, whether someone is "outed" (falsely or not) for being an abuser of the forums or sometimes members are found "guilty by association".
I would like to see at least a "Thanks" system in place, again the folks at androidforums.com (which I'm sure at least some of you are also members at or at least have been directed to a post there before) have this successfully working within their vBulletin-powered site and would happy to help XDA admins if needed (not that I don't have faith in the XDA site owners/coders, you guys are pretty awesome yourselves =p). Of course I would be happy to lend my ~10 years of PHP/MySQL/etc experience to the process if it'd help.
I would start a public poll, but I think it's really in the interests of the site owners (also they can probably setup a more wide-spread poll than I can if they want public opinion).
Your friend in code,
DeeBG =)

I think it would be good to show appreciation to other users but It would be abused knowing that you can knock down someone's reputation (last thing we need is more flaming)

Captainkrtek said:
I think it would be good to show appreciation to other users but It would be abused knowing that you can knock down someone's reputation (last thing we need is more flaming)
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Yeah, that's why I think a system where you can ONLY give thanks would be cool. Again, forum admins, let me know if you need any assistance getting it up and working (it shouldn't add a performance performance hit to the backend database/system... the php code would be very light and the mysql db would maybe grow a few hundred kB since users without thanks wouldn't have any data).

Developer Bidding...
Livven said:
The reputation system only works through "thanks", doesn't it?
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Still open to cheating using multiple accounts to "Thank" themselves here and there and everywhere.
It's perhaps harder to gain anything with requests from yourself, and gifting points to yourself, while offering up public solutions. Thou i wouldn't put it past someone to try.
It's not much of a system - you can donate directly to xda, which will help cover costs of running the servers, or you can donate to individuals (like me ) whose work you like.
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Hmm... There seems to be a growing trend on XDA towards "donation requests" or "developer bidding" in certain forums. (see Xperia x10 Froyo request topic for example).
It involves people collectively posting that they will each donate a small amount to their favorite cause. (Android on Samsung Wave being another good example)
The current running tallies of offered donations is also interesting idea, thou there is some concern that those who have offered to donate $10 or $20 dollars will actually do so once the developers have done their magic.
Again, the opaque or arbitrary nature of hidden donations is a problem here.
Without going as far as escrow payments system (for requests that could likely need time limits and a refund), a basic "pre-paid" point system should work pretty well. For instance, once a task is completed the points could then be traded back for paypal dollars, completing the "circle of trust".
Any other ideas on this?
(or is there already an active "services" marketplace here somewhere that i've perhaps overlooked?)

Apps - A Coordinated Effort?

We all know one of the biggest gripes about Windows Phone is the lack of a few key apps. I know that I frequently contact a few companies to let them know that I am looking forward to a Windows Phone version of their existing apps and I’m sure others do as well. So companies get a smattering of requests from some users here and there.
Just wondering if perhaps we focus on one or a few particular apps at a time with many people emailing, tweeting, comments on Facebook etc in a sustained way to let them see that there is actual interest from a large number of users in the Windows Phone community. Who knows, maybe if there is enough noise, some of them will rethink their stand.
Not sure if this is the right place for this, but seemed like good place to see what people think.
Thoughts?

Bad idea. Software business works by different way. No one cares about your tweets or fb posts or forum noise - it's just a children game.

I agree that it may not make a difference, however companies often do actually listen to what people are saying. If it sounds like there is a demand, some companies who have been on the fence, may well pull the trigger and make something happen.
I've had luck getting companies to do things when I ask publicly that they wouldn't do when I asked privately. So it seems like getting more people asking publicly may well help in some instances.

willp2 said:
I agree that it may not make a difference, however companies often do actually listen to what people are saying. If it sounds like there is a demand, some companies who have been on the fence, may well pull the trigger and make something happen.
I've had luck getting companies to do things when I ask publicly that they wouldn't do when I asked privately. So it seems like getting more people asking publicly may well help in some instances.
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Other than XDA, if you also post this on WPCentral forum, you will get much much much better and enthusiastic response for such requests. There is a list of app-requests somwhere in this forum too, if you wanted a place to pick apps-in-demand from.

I'm afraid you are mistaken. Companies are "listening" their marketing stuff, investors and personal CEO/chairman opinions. Neither facebook posts nor tweets can change company budget, marketing strategy or development roadmap. In fact, the most companies are controlled by the intelligent and informed people, so you may be sure they already knew about WP7 platform
P.S. Let me guess: you've never worked in software industry, don't you?

Thanks for the comments on WPCentral forum, good point. More regular users over there.
sensboston - You made my point exactly. Companies are listening to marketing staff, investors and personal CEO/chairman opinions. Those people, especially the marketing types pay attention to what the outside world is saying. If they see noise about a particular topic, it gets their attention.
For instance, if that company releases a new version of an app that has big problems, they'll hear about it first from all those social sources and they will generally try to react quickly to quite down the noise.
Not that it matters or even relevant to what I'm talking about here, but I've been in the software industry for over 20 years.

willp2 said:
For instance, if that company releases a new version of an app that has big problems, they'll hear about it first from all those social sources and they will generally try to react quickly to quite down the noise.
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It's a completely different case. Yes, I agree - huge noise/rumors about critical bug in popular app/software can push (some) companies to force fix or workaround immediately (good example is a Nokia representatives, who's - I believe - are monitoring XDA forums daily)
But porting app to the different platform (especially to WP7!) is very complicated. Most primary titles are written on C++ and uses native code/API calls. "Porting" C++ code to C#/Silverlight isn't just "porting"; it's much more close to complete rewrite. Also WP7 platform support means an additional tier of Q&A and etc. and so on (if you are really worked more than 20 years in industry you can easily extend these requirements).
100 or even 1000 facebook posts and forum requests can't show you a real app demand but statistics can. Unfortunately WP7 market share currently is too small (at the end of 2011 it was about 2%).

I thought there was a similar thread already, but if not then perhaps we can do that. I heard a company saying, they'll port it to windows phone if they enough demands.

I do get that it's not a trivial task.
Again I was really just getting at the many companies who are already considering moving to Windows Phone but are on the fence.
As we know more and more apps are being ported every week so many companies already have been thinking about, planning or are already doing it. In some cases a little public pressure may at least confirm to them that people are interested and perhaps move things along.
lamborg - sorry if someone else already brought this up in another thread, I did search around first.

willp2 said:
I do get that it's not a trivial task.
Again I was really just getting at the many companies who are already considering moving to Windows Phone but are on the fence.
As we know more and more apps are being ported every week so many companies already have been thinking about, planning or are already doing it. In some cases a little public pressure may at least confirm to them that people are interested and perhaps move things along.
lamborg - sorry if someone else already brought this up in another thread, I did search around first.
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I am not sure either but I think I have seen a similar thread, Anyway, if that cannot be found.
BTW it was I think Draw Something which said about the enough demand.

Maybe try crowd funding
Maybe this is an area where crowd funding could help.
I mean, people can make noise about want for a particular WP7 app as much as they like, but at the end of the day somebody has to pay for development, in some way, either directly or indirectly.
A successful crowd funding campaign for an app would probably prove much more that there really is demand than just so many Facebook postings.
Of course there is also the danger that such a campaign fails miserably and shows that there isn't real demand, just a very vocal but small minority wanting the app...

rbrunner7 said:
Maybe this is an area where crowd funding could help.
I mean, people can make noise about want for a particular WP7 app as much as they like, but at the end of the day somebody has to pay for development, in some way, either directly or indirectly.
A successful crowd funding campaign for an app would probably prove much more that there really is demand than just so many Facebook postings.
Of course there is also the danger that such a campaign fails miserably and shows that there isn't real demand, just a very vocal but small minority wanting the app...
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Guarantee this would not get noticed. Most users on the site don't even donate to the devs that post apps here that they use, let alone donate to some fund for the possibility of an app being ported.
Standard contractor rates for a software engineer are about $100 to $150 per hour. Salaried devs make less, but the cost is close to the same for companies because of benefits packages. So, 1 day of dev time for 1 developer is going to cost around $1000. My guess is a crowd fund would not even reach $100. But even if $10000 were collected, that would only cover a team of 5 for 2 days. And, 5 days for 20 business days would cost $100000. And this is is exactly why companies have been slow to bring apps over. It's expensive.
The other aspect is that although the syntax is similar in C#, Java, and C++; there are enough differences to make it less than a simple task to just switch over. Most devs with experience have been doing either C# or Java or C++. Most have not been doing all 3. This means paying money and taking time to get the existing devs trained or hire additional devs and transfering domain knowledge to them. Both have costs. (Note: iPhone is Objective C, which is different, but also has similarities. Same issues though)
Many companies just don't have the resources to spend when the return on investment is not short term. Long term as more consumers buy Windows Phones, it will be more economically viable for companies to invest in porting the applications.

JVH3 said:
Guarantee this would not get noticed. Most users on the site don't even donate to the devs that post apps here that they use
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He-he... Most users on the site are too lazy, greedy and irresponsible not even for donation but just for vote and review published here on XDA apps And some are so ungrateful that they forget just to say "Thanks"... Don't tell me about donations: I've collected money for Cotulla, for the Samsung's first freedom ROM for WP7... From hundreds of Focus owners here only 13 or 14 people are donated.
As for your arguments: it's 100% true for an adult professionals but of course not for 12-14 years old teens who "has over 20 years of software industry experience"

Yeah, I am myself a professional developer at day time, and I know how much it costs my company to employ me
But still, I think not all hope is lost. Some people may read this thread and just maybe change their attitude against devs that offer "free" things a little to the better - good that we talked about it, then!
And as I program in my free time anyway, just for fun, even a crowdsourced 1000 dollars could nudge me in a direction that I would not take otherwise, and people get the app they like. Of course only if the right APIs and server permissions are there to build it in the first place which of course is not always the case - many apps can only be built by the companies who own the corresponding server infrastructure.

rbrunner7 said:
Yeah, I am myself a professional developer at day time, and I know how much it costs my company to employ me
But still, I think not all hope is lost. Some people may read this thread and just maybe change their attitude against devs that offer "free" things a little to the better - good that we talked about it, then!
And as I program in my free time anyway, just for fun, even a crowdsourced 1000 dollars could nudge me in a direction that I would not take otherwise, and people get the app they like. Of course only if the right APIs and server permissions are there to build it in the first place which of course is not always the case - many apps can only be built by the companies who own the corresponding server infrastructure.
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Not to be discouraging, but it is pretty unlikely to get $1000 in donation from users here. It you look at the weather city editor that I wrote (link to thread in signature) for Windows Mobile, I got maybe close to $500 in donations from the time I created it through the entire time I worked on it, supported it, and enhanced it. I created it because I needed it and turned it into more than I needed so others could easily use it. The donations came from maybe 20 to 30 users. It was downloaded by well over 10000 users.
If looking for money as the reward, you are much better off paying Microsoft the $100 and putting the app on the marketplace and charging a dollar or making it be ad supported.
You'll still get respect for making cool things and posting them here, but it's not going to make you rich. It's a great place to learn and get some experience making apps though. Lots of people are willing to help if you get stuck on something.

It's a nice thought but, in reality it wont work
I thought about doing this too...
If you got everyone to attempt to do it, it might but, if you only get 50 people to do it(and that would be a lot in a fourm to request something they might not be interested in) that is a little bit compared to their marketplace with iOS or Android.
I personally really want Cut the Rope but, after posting a handfull of times on their facebook page and even emailing customer service, no luck

Anyone tried j2objc yet?

Wondering if it's worthwhile before I invest time in creating a Mac OS X VM + Xcode to port my android apps to iOS.

lapucele said:
Wondering if it's worthwhile before I invest time in creating a Mac OS X VM + Xcode to port my android apps to iOS.
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just realised this may be the wrong subforum to post the above question. Could this thread be moved?

lapucele said:
just realised this may be the wrong subforum to post the above question. Could this thread be moved?
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Actually I clicked on here thinking myself that this was for "application porting" as I came from the front page, and then it wasn't till I saw you replied to your own thread with the above that I realised? I think there is a bug in the forums, not you posting in the incorrect location?
Anyway to discuss your topic, I have recently downloaded all the necessary stuff to do as you are considering. One thing to be careful of is the fact that Apple from my understanding will give you their wrath if they find out.
Apple software is ONLY to be run on Apple hardware, If they find out (and they have their ways from what I have heard) you instantly banned for life. I guess nothing stopping you starting again, but remember your app is pulled and you kind of couldn't get away with releasing it under a different name account again later on without them knowing?
There's always the cydia market place which I hear is still fairly profitable...up until recently I wasn't even aware that is was a paid market place, I had always been of the impression that it was a hackers market for people who 1) mod their device tweak it like us android users 2) jailbroken (but stock and no alternative to iTunes) 3) People who pirate apps.
However i have learned that it has quite a following an even some developers release on both iTunes and Cydia.
Anyway just my thoughts. I am in contact with a developer that is into the whole cydia thing so if you have any questions you want answers for give me a holla
James

Jarmezrocks said:
Actually I clicked on here thinking myself that this was for "application porting" as I came from the front page, and then it wasn't till I saw you replied to your own thread with the above that I realised? I think there is a bug in the forums, not you posting in the incorrect location?
Anyway to discuss your topic, I have recently downloaded all the necessary stuff to do as you are considering. One thing to be careful of is the fact that Apple from my understanding will give you their wrath if they find out.
Apple software is ONLY to be run on Apple hardware, If they find out (and they have their ways from what I have heard) you instantly banned for life. I guess nothing stopping you starting again, but remember your app is pulled and you kind of couldn't get away with releasing it under a different name account again later on without them knowing?
There's always the cydia market place which I hear is still fairly profitable...up until recently I wasn't even aware that is was a paid market place, I had always been of the impression that it was a hackers market for people who 1) mod their device tweak it like us android users 2) jailbroken (but stock and no alternative to iTunes) 3) People who pirate apps.
However i have learned that it has quite a following an even some developers release on both iTunes and Cydia.
Anyway just my thoughts. I am in contact with a developer that is into the whole cydia thing so if you have any questions you want answers for give me a holla
James
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wow thanks for the heads up! i've heard varying stories too. i totally didn't think of the 3rd party app stores.

lapucele said:
wow thanks for the heads up! i've heard varying stories too. i totally didn't think of the 3rd party app stores.
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Just thought I'd mention as I only heard yesterday, but the newest edition of the app store for Apple is called AppCake for Apple. Apparently Apple is now going about systematically shutting down every 3rd party non-apple owned store including the non so legitimate suppliers of of Apple after market hardware products. That means everyone with anything that connects to an apple product that isn't apple or made by apple is a target. Geeese they don't let up do they? Developers mention that Apple will never be able to shut them down :silly: that they can and will do what they like with their iDevices cause they own them.
Oh and other thing to look out for if you go to Apple/iTunes, is this company Lodsys who are world renowned for being patent trolls who are systematically targeting individual developers for breaches in copy right for, get this......'in app purchasing' they claim that they invented it and are now suing several developers from iTunes (them personally) for using the iTunes supplied SDK for in app purchasing. Apple is doing the right thing and trying to defend these developers but the World IP org and US patents office can't do a god damned thing about it until things hurry up and get pushed through a ballot of senators to have groups like them shut down. Until then they are working their best and fastest with trying to sue as many people as they can! Unfortunately for most its a loosing battle as they don't have the money or resources to fight these bastards so they end up paying up. In an new interview I heard one company claimed it was cheeper to settle for 100K out of court than what it was to commit to defending them selves even though this group targeting them was 100% wrong.
But not meaning to scare you...or anything just keeping you filled in. Me personally I would write them a letter saying 4 words on one line followed by 4 words on a second line "Go f*%# your self" "See you in court" and go seek one of my dad's barrister friends to do it no win no fee. Screw that. I would be flaunting that I have in app purchasing sayin come at me bro
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/04/app-developers-lodsys-back
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/05/hey-patent-trolls-pick-someone-your-own-size
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/...t-patent-trolls-and-not-going-take-it-anymore

Jarmezrocks said:
Actually I clicked on here thinking myself that this was for "application porting" as I came from the front page, and then it wasn't till I saw you replied to your own thread with the above that I realised? I think there is a bug in the forums, not you posting in the incorrect location?
Anyway to discuss your topic, I have recently downloaded all the necessary stuff to do as you are considering. One thing to be careful of is the fact that Apple from my understanding will give you their wrath if they find out.
Apple software is ONLY to be run on Apple hardware, If they find out (and they have their ways from what I have heard) you instantly banned for life. I guess nothing stopping you starting again, but remember your app is pulled and you kind of couldn't get away with releasing it under a different name account again later on without them knowing?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No you guys are right. This is for porting apps across platforms, but people seem to confuse it with ROM porting.
Q. I know pretty much zero about iOS, and generally have always been anti apple. Are you trying to say that using something like j2 on lets say a virtual box on windows, is somehow a detectable and bannable offense in apple land? It's late and i might be just be misreading, but would like to know.
Mostly because i picked up a job on an Android app, and have been talking a bit about putting the app out for iphones after I finish up the android version, but don't really know where to begin.

out of ideas said:
No you guys are right. This is for porting apps across platforms, but people seem to confuse it with ROM porting.
Q. I know pretty much zero about iOS, and generally have always been anti apple. Are you trying to say that using something like j2 on lets say a virtual box on windows, is somehow a detectable and bannable offense in apple land? It's late and i might be just be misreading, but would like to know.
Mostly because i picked up a job on an Android app, and have been talking a bit about putting the app out for iphones after I finish up the android version, but don't really know where to begin.
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My Research and Understanding
Yes that is exactly what I am saying. To run Apple in a VM is in breach of their TOS and Usage policy. It also entitles them to seek prosecution also; so not just a ban from iTunes. Going by Apples past history I wouldn't put it past them? Although now with Tim Cook in charge of things I think Apple is going about things a bit more differently now? For better or worse (people had their opinions of Steve Jobs - personally I disliked him but did appreciate his success and achievements for what they stacked up to be, personal opinions aside it takes a great person to do such) Apple is starting to become a bit more valued in collaborations as this is what Tim Cook always wanted working for Apple that he was never able to have whilst Steve was the master of the helm. Tim Cook was more about getting the job done and sharing. Steve's ongoing vendetta litigations were not Tim Cooks choice and/or advice. He didn't want such things from what I have read? More recently his involvement in legal matters has been observed as retracted and no confronting; he has proceeded to do these actions as part of Steve Jobs dying wishes and nothing more.
As far as I can tell he wants to nothing more than to get things out of the way and over and done with so that he and his company can move on.
My thoughts on this as an observer in the mobile tech industry is that I think Apple has dropped the ball a bit, and it is probably far too little far too late. However with a company with that much money behind it? There's only speculations about what holds in the future of Apple? They are certainly not going away or going to fall in to ruins that's for certain.
What I mean is that, yes there has been a heap of legal stuff seen by Apple and most of it very negative, but my feeling is that this won't be the case here on into the future, so the likelihood of facing a court for breach of Terms of Use are likely to be very small. I am sure that editing a build.prop is considered a breach of Google's TOS for use of a device in their Playstore?
Suggestions
My suggestion is to give it a try I have had some issues setting up my VM but have got all the necessary resources including all the software. I have just become too busy and it is not high on the priority list at the moment. I wanted to try gain an understanding of how Apple detects it's visitors. I mean iTunes is cross platform Windows and Mac (There is no release for Ubuntu or Linux AFAIK? only Wine type hacks) I know when I visit the iTunes webpage I am automatically prompted to download a Windows installer package. So they must have some form of automatic detection? Being that the likes of Virtualbox uses a shared internet connection I would speculate that you would need to choose the correct adapter settings so that your VM is seen to be a running physical machine and not a able to be identified as a shared connection or virtualised connection?
I didn't get this far as my installation has many issues. I still have the VM though for future interest. Feel free to PM me if you give it a try and don't succeed and I am happy to share what things I discovered in my problem solving.
Understanding Limitations for Cross Platform Mobile Development
As for the porting to OS's I believe there are many offerings around now that provide developers with a cross platform arrangement. Essentially only the UI resources need to change and then that plugs into a framework structure for your application to run in. You compile the code individual applications that are specific to the platform but you ARE able to develop your main code independent of the platforms. Languages such as Flex or Rubi on rails are going to be your best bet from my research?
Things You Should Consider
1. Single code repository
2. Individual application frameworks - compilation of application runtime for independent OS type
3. Limitations are stipulated and governed by what is allow at the lowest possible denominator. i.e. You can only build code into your single code repository that can accessed by the functionality of both(or all) platforms. What I mean is that there is no use building a single code repository that uses a function that is limited on one platform and not the other, another example is restrictions dictated to you by the likes of such companies like Apple. They have a strict guidelines and what is potentially available to you may not be in its context. Just because certain functionality is available to you in the Apple platform and you have even seen it in use on Apple devices does not necessarily mean that you can build and release it. In it's context Apple may not like what you are doing with your app and not approve it.
Your single point of code and it entirety has just shrunk in functionality to both devices now. So be careful and Anticipate what you might think the outcome is for your Application facing such scrutinisation and what it could possibly mean for your project as a whole?
On this note I have heard of developers making scripts and add-ons for their said central repository that allows them to restrict things ats compile time. For instance having greyed out selections in menus and a toast like notification to users like "Sorry this functionality is only available to Android users" and things like that.
Hope this helps contribute towards people considering on such ventures. Do your research. Find out what types of apps have been rejected from being published and find the reasons for why?

lapucele said:
Wondering if it's worthwhile before I invest time in creating a Mac OS X VM + Xcode to port my android apps to iOS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I will check it in next week

Anyone here have developed apps on the Windows Store?

I am a user of W10M and I was very impressed with the development potential that exists in this forum and also intrigued to think there has not arisen some great big hit app for Windows Phone from some kind of collaborative development from here.
Anyone here have no interest making an app to meet a demand like a really good youtube app or something else?
Windows Phone lack of good apps and if there someplace in the world that can change this reality is here, probably. There is so much to do and here are met very skilled people... I don't know... seems like everything is laying arround here, like tools, knowledge, experience, time, computing resources, even the good will, and etc... Let's face it, today Windows users depends, almost tottaly, on the development of people like you guys, just like the Linux community do... it's the only way, I think...

raphaelsolis said:
I am a user of W10M and I was very impressed with the development potential that exists in this forum and also intrigued to think there has not arisen some great big hit app for Windows Phone from some kind of collaborative development from here.
Anyone here have no interest making an app to meet a demand like a really good youtube app or something else?
Windows Phone lack of good apps and if there someplace in the world that can change this reality is here, probably. There is so much to do and here are met very skilled people... I don't know... seems like everything is laying arround here, like tools, knowledge, experience, time, computing resources, even the good will, and etc... Let's face it, today Windows users depends, almost tottaly, on the development of people like you guys, just like the Linux community do... it's the only way, I think...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Really, the main apps missing don't come from independent developers, but from banks, stores, public transportation/airports/airlines, schools, etc.
Until market share picks up, or we make enough fuss, they won't see it as worth the time and effort to deploy apps for windows phone.

here in Croatia, for example, we have bunch of banking apps (almost all banks here have windows apps) because we were annoying
for my bank PBZ, we gathered and every week sent requirements for banks apps six months. Today we have:
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/apps/mpbz/9nblggh093bh
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/apps/pbzmtoken/9nblggh0f4rr
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/apps/mpbzcom/9nblgggzkjmg
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/apps/american-express-myaccount/9nblggh52jmn
https://www.microsoft.com/hr-hr/store/p/pbz-wave-2-pay-sticker/9wzdncrdjzv4
so, dont be lazy. find people who want some apps also, and every week send request for apps to banks, developers... and maybe you got apps...
P:S
here is apps from other banks here:
https://www.microsoft.com/hr-hr/store/p/addiko-mobile-hrvatska/9nblggh0k1m0
https://www.microsoft.com/hr-hr/store/apps/m-zaba/9nblggh0fv21
https://www.microsoft.com/hr-hr/store/apps/m-zabaps/9wzdncrdt4n0
https://www.microsoft.com/hr-hr/store/p/poba-m-token/9nblggh0jxxl
https://www.microsoft.com/hr-hr/store/p/rba-na-dlanu/9wzdncrdl8v0

user107 said:
Really, the main apps missing don't come from independent developers, but from banks, stores, public transportation/airports/airlines, schools, etc.
Until market share picks up, or we make enough fuss, they won't see it as worth the time and effort to deploy apps for windows phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh, sorry I have no idea about this fact.
In my experience I see the big majority are shytty unofficial apps and unofficial clients for the big apps we don't have a official version yet, this big majority apps comes from individual developers or small software houses, and the official versions are kind of shytty too, because all lacks of important features, this is what actually we have at our disposal: a bone to the dogs, the leftovers, this is what they have to offer to W10M users. My point is: if we want to have something really good, this will have to come from us, because we are the only people who actually cares with this O.S.

dxdy said:
here in Croatia, for example, we have bunch of banking apps (almost all banks here have windows apps) because we were annoying
for my bank PBZ, we gathered and every week sent requirements for banks apps six months. Today we have:
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/apps/mpbz/9nblggh093bh
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/apps/pbzmtoken/9nblggh0f4rr
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/apps/mpbzcom/9nblgggzkjmg
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/apps/american-express-myaccount/9nblggh52jmn
https://www.microsoft.com/hr-hr/store/p/pbz-wave-2-pay-sticker/9wzdncrdjzv4
so, dont be lazy. find people who want some apps also, and every week send request for apps to banks, developers... and maybe you got apps...
P:S
here is apps from other banks here:
https://www.microsoft.com/hr-hr/store/p/addiko-mobile-hrvatska/9nblggh0k1m0
https://www.microsoft.com/hr-hr/store/apps/m-zaba/9nblggh0fv21
https://www.microsoft.com/hr-hr/store/apps/m-zabaps/9wzdncrdt4n0
https://www.microsoft.com/hr-hr/store/p/poba-m-token/9nblggh0jxxl
https://www.microsoft.com/hr-hr/store/p/rba-na-dlanu/9wzdncrdl8v0
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Dude... I'm not lazy... at all my friend... Maybe you don't get what is my point here, I don't want make a fuss like a children begging for something, I want more, we deserve dignity and respect too... The fuss was made already along the years, and we have not been heard, they just shut up us with a pacifier, some diversion to take our attention... until today we don't have even a good FB app, we have a official app but it don't have live streaming and video calls on FB messeger, we always have less then the others plataforms. Linux is the example for us here, they are by himself and they are going well. We have to send a message with a really good big hit app like Youtube or something else...

raphaelsolis said:
I don't want make a fuss like a children begging for something, I want more, we deserve dignity and respect too... The fuss was made already, along the years and we have not been heard, they just shut up us with a pacifier, some diversion to take our attention...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Are you familiar with the idiom "The squeaky wheel gets the oil"?

user107 said:
Are you familiar with the idiom "The squeaky wheel gets the oil"?
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Click to collapse
No, it's new to me. I'm not familiar with english idioms, but I get it...
Like I said, we squeak for a long time and no one seems to care about... They doesn't oil this squeaky wheel, they just make a palliative repair to temporarily stop our noise. They seems not interested in take action to solve the problem once and for all.
My point is: if we could make this great free app (wich we will not do, I know), it will make their irresponsibility with us something embarrassing to then (Google and Microsoft), worldwide. That would be a big squeak.
I wanted a awesome Windows 10 Mobile experience. That is what we paid for, and that we deserve, like the others plataforms are getting.
Big companies (Facebook, Google) are just rich, stupid and cocky... today they are only interested in profit. They are faceless money-sucking parasites who don't care nothing about the users needs from a minor low-profit plataform. We are just a problem to cover up.
But we in other hand (me, at last), have pride. We are enthusiasts and care about this. and we should take care of this situation, that's what I think...

raphaelsolis said:
My point is: if we could make this great free app (wich we will not do, I know), it will make their irresponsibility with us something embarrassing to then (Google and Microsoft), worldwide.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's wishful thinking, but we (independent developers) simply do not have access to necessary APIs to develop third-party apps.
Many things can be taken care of through the browser, but still that is not enough in some instances (like my city's public transport system).
Again, you won't do much just ranting here.
You must harass them (facebook, google, etc) daily if necessary.

raphaelsolis said:
Big companies (Facebook, Google) are just rich, stupid and cocky... today they are only interested in profit. They are faceless money-sucking parasites who don't care nothing about the users needs from a minor low-profit plataform. We are just a problem to cover up.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Businesses must care about profit first, for the owners and shareholders. That's a whole idea about business; otherwise please refer to the "communism" or other "-isemes"...
raphaelsolis said:
But we in other hand (me, at last), have pride. We are enthusiasts and care about this. and we should take care of this situation, that's what I think...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
"Pride" will not cover your time/money/other expenses. You should say "thanks" (in the opposite meaning of this word ) to the M$ who just screwed up a good platform.
Nobody wants to spend money to W10M anymore; there are no W10M jobs on the US market (at all!), many big companies are stopped WP/W10M support at all like Amazon etc. Indie devs are not happy too: if you have good idea, you may earn much more by developing to the other platforms (but you should spend same resources).
P.S. BTW, for your OP: I do have a good apps and games in the store (a lot of) and I always provided my development skills to the community (when I have the time of course)

OK. I gave the shot because here seemed to be the birth place of amazing Android mods like the cyanogenmods and some Windows Hacks... I thought app development for this guys was a child's play.
And, just to make clear about the APIs, I insisted in Youtube App because I know the paid app Metro Tube and seemed possible to do.
But you are totally right, it's wishful thinking...
Thanks for attention.

sensboston said:
Businesses must care about profit first, for the owners and shareholders. That's a whole idea about business; otherwise please refer to the "communism" or other "-isemes"...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, but not related. Big companies (Google and Facebook) started operations totally focused in offer something cool to users and make money in consequense. Have the users was to whole point. Now they have all the users of the whole world and it changed his attitude and can (stupidly) ignore who are not interesting for them, even if the reason for that is low-profit (but still profit, not a loss), for that I think they are cocky now. That is why I wrote "today" in that sentence. Today is another reality.
sensboston said:
"Pride" will not cover your time/money/other expenses. You should say "thanks" (in the opposite meaning of this word ) to the M$ who just screwed up a good platform.
Nobody wants to spend money to W10M anymore; there are no W10M jobs on the US market (at all!), many big companies are stopped WP/W10M support at all like Amazon etc. Indie devs are not happy too: if you have good idea, you may earn much more by developing to the other platforms (but you should spend same resources).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Pride certainly will not cover. That is why I brought Linux like an example to follow. They work for themselves to serve all the community. Who have the knowledge helps and I believe you will did the same if a project like "W10M Free Youtube App" existed. This seemed our reality from now on...
Nice Apps by the way...
Thats why I want to emphasize: if we want start to reverse this scenario we have to start make something big by ourselves. W10M need apps to raise his market share? let's make the apps... by ourselves.
I believe if W10M show signs of growth it can grow exponentially when companies start to notice this.

raphaelsolis said:
Yes, but not related. Big companies (Google and Facebook) started operations totally focused in offer something cool to users and make money in consequense.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
He-he, I wish to live in your world but "I'm too old for this sh&t" (c)
raphaelsolis said:
That is why I brought Linux like an example to follow. They work for themselves to serve all the community.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Linux is a different kind of story; by the way, if you'll try to get help from a linux gurus or other kind of open source nerds like ffmpeg guys by the similar way (I mean your opening post), don't get too upset, usual "RTFM" will be a most decent word
Also, apps are created not by "we" or "let's make". The correct question should sounds like: "I created an ultimate youtube app, the sources are located at the https://github.com/blah-blah-blah. Anybody wanna get a try or join development?"...
People usually do what they are like to do; looks like everybody are happy with the youtube mobile site via Edge, as I am.

sensboston said:
He-he, I wish to live in your world but "I'm too old for this sh&t" (c)
Linux is a different kind of story; by the way, if you'll try to get help from a linux gurus or other kind of open source nerds like ffmpeg guys by the similar way (I mean your opening post), don't get too upset, usual "RTFM" will be a most decent word
Also, apps are created not by "we" or "let's make". The correct question should sounds like: "I created an ultimate youtube app, the sources are located at the https://github.com/blah-blah-blah. Anybody wanna get a try or join development?"...
People usually do what they are like to do; looks like everybody are happy with the youtube mobile site via Edge, as I am.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok... apps can be created by others ways too. Thanks for your interest. There are always a million reasons not to do something...
Let's do nothing and watch this ship sink... it's the best thing do to.
Can you or anyone else tell me how to delete this pointless thread?