Related
I will apologize in advance for this will be long and random because my thoughts bounce around like that
You know I've been trying to figure it all out lately. It seems a good portion of XDA (40% according to this poll) members are liking 6.5.3 moreso than 7. OK...fine. Then we have this huge population of people (34% according to this poll that plan on switching to another mobile OS. Not to mention the slew of people still pissed and wondering if the HD2 will be forward compatible. And the ever increasing amount of people still prefer Sense UI over WP7. Its all so much to address so I just stopped posting for a while...but I wonder?!?!? Is change really that bad?
Its like people have been *****ing for months wanting M$ to give us the scoop on WP7...we have it and we're pissed. lol. lets move past all this...I mean its borderline ludicrous when people are saying (as this thread ) that he's selling his phone because because he's not sure if he's getting the upgrade to the OS that isn't gonna be released for another 6 months...lol WTF people. Why don't we use this forum for sharing information and not bashing something that not out nor is it finished...we don't have even close to half of the info about this phone yet we are judging it based upon insubstantial information.
I remember when the videos started coming out, the guy at the booth mentions that copy/paste hadn't been implemented into the OS yet...then I read on this forum that there is NO COPY/PASTE. One guy asked the phone operator about multitasking. The guy replies "the phone itself multitasks." He was then followup asked to go to the home screen and press the back button in which the phone lead him back to to the task he was previously doing (IE: MULTITASKING)....I look on this forum..."WP7 doesn't multitask wtfloljumpfrombuildingdiewithmelmaojkjkjkjk." where did this random unsubstantiated info come from? Its like people aren't even watching, listening, reading anymore.
6.5.3 is awesome and MS has said it will continue to build upon it...so all current users can still have all the things they love currently for the next 10 years (with microsofts string of innovation..lol.) But lets be honest lets look at 6+ as a whole:
OS Fragmentation...this is one of the biggest issues for me. Everytime I see an app I like on this website I have to see if its resolution compatible with my device (WVGA FTW). Go look in the XDA development section for new apps or apps in developments...I'm sure everyone of them will have a post saying "please make this for QVGA" or something similar. This is huge. Android also has a similar issue BTW
Blandness. This is the biggest issue. I've mentioned this before in other posts. Why is it everytime I want to accomplish anything in the OS I'm lead to an ugly white screen? Settings=ugly. SMS=ugly. Email=Ugly ANY SYSTEM MENU=UGLY. Its no wonder we all like Sense UI from HTC. Go to search and look up Contact Manager...see how many apps you get. Look up music players, lock screens, UI's etc. We got that by dozens. WHY? Now if you look at the scene currently...its because it gives us a choice to personalize, and I agree. But if you look back this was born out of a need for better rather than a need for different/personalization. Media player sucked...it was bland hard to navigate and generally a terrible experience. AC takes the best out the (Iphone) and creates it for WM (S2P)...sure it looks great but the need was much more for a BETTER player. Same can be said for S2U2 et al. HTC needed Manilla/sense to make our outdated UI look appealing/current. Everything about Sense is better than stock, Same can be said for Samsungs Touchwiz. These things were born out of necessity.
Terrible manufacturing. For all the HTC love out there, we all seem to let them get away with the fact that for the past 10 years (up until HD2) they have been giving us awesome software coupled with terrible hardware. It is a fact that we had incomplete/missing drivers and because of this alot of development was stalled or took forever to do. And image how much money HTC made off of shaving costs with shoddy manufacturing.
I won't got too indepth there but to keep it simple, M$ has those basic problems to deal with when making a new OS.
Now look at WP7, Easily top of the line spec sheet just for minimum requirements. I knew we were in for greatness when we got that bit of info. C'mon snapdragon as the minimum...awesome. This also gets rid of those Terrible manufacturing woes...so people can't just put out trash with the M$ OS on it. No more phones that crash from simple program openings. Also WVGA as the standard. No more need to build an app and then port it to other resolutions (WIN..) This coupled with the XNA/Silverlight development tolls make it possible to build for Xbox, PC, Mobile all at the same time...thats awesome and a huge win. Lastly, with Metro, there is no need for user skins on top of the UI. I know alot of you guys are newer to WM, but back in the day...I remember where the home screen was just "the homescreen"..the ugly green or blue homescreen with whatever info you needed on it (Weatherpanel FTW..anyone?) People realized how blah it was and you see where we are now. Look at Sense...its awesome because it gives you all the same info but it looks good and its faster. Metro has live tiles that give you access to EVERYTHING you need on your phone. Its not like the iphone where you check your SMS by tapping sms its something completely different, better. You go from the Hub into the universe that is you contacts, updated twitters, facebook, photos, sms, emails....everything at the touch of the finger...just by going into contacts. Thats awesome. Granted I don't uses twitter or facebook but its a nice touch. But if you look at it, there is still more room for innovation...HTC weather HUB anyone?
So yeah, a phone is a means of communications, a cell phone is a portable way of communication..Wp7 looks to be communication on steroids. I apologize for this extremely long message but i had to get out everything on my mind...in a place where people would read it. If you stuck it out, thank you. If you post telling me that was too long, you're absolutely right. Sorry
Good One..Well said, and I agree
devs, here do not trying to understand, if MS is closing one door, they are opening 100 doors as in the Xbox and other services can be synced among them, so this gives lot of opportunity to devs to come up with exciting creativve ideas.
Also, MS wnats to extend the scope with reaching out to all types of users and segments, and what they have showed here is the perfect thing.I am wwaiting for a review or hands on for a fully furnished and finished wp7 device.
I totally agree with you style. WM5 was a good os, but boring, Then here comes WM6.0 6.1 with touchflo. It was awesome, but the os sucked really bad, had a bunch of bugs and its just a let down. I had a htc 8125 which the phone itself was a resilient phone, but it just was sluggish with any of the OS except WM5 on it. I believe the phone couldn't exactly hold its own with the software but never the less it was slow running wm 6.5. The phone ran the os but I think windows had a bunch of problems. I am no longer using my 8125 cuz the poor thing died from a heart attack and major artery blockage from being used hard lol. I have a 8525 coming in and im planning on putting wm7 on it. Can't wait. I may be in for a let down but if I am then I still have a pretty cool phone coming to me, and it makes me look kinda cool for having it haha.
+1 good post b
A very good post.
Just keep in mind that WP7 is a "new" platform. It is not an upgrade of current WM6.x.
Being a new platform, it means new kind of hardware, OS, and applications.
It will start with 0 or less available applications when it launch. Same like iPhone / Android when they just newly released. Nothing to worry here, except you hate waiting.
gogol said:
A very good post.
Just keep in mind that WP7 is a "new" platform. It is not an upgrade of current WM6.x.
Being a new platform, it means new kind of hardware, OS, and applications.
It will start with 0 or less available applications when it launch. Same like iPhone / Android when they just newly released. Nothing to worry here, except you hate waiting.
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So true....but there will be a good amount of apps available on launch because its using the Zune software so it will be running Zune Apps...I have a few games on my Zune already...all are nice and smooth.
Also BobbyJ, you won't be able to upgrade the 8525 to WP7. Hardware isn't up to par.
~style1~
Thank you guys for the comments, I already had my flame suit on..
Exactly i was thinking same. MS has to start from 0 ..... new os, new hw, new life.
I like the functionality of new OS but not the GUI . and i believe lot will change till final release. Still i will use wp7 if everything seems to work out.
personally i would like cab installation and customization on wp7
guess how cool it would be lil customization like Sense UI on wp7 .. or adding app by cab ....
but i think whatever wp7 will be, it will worth using.
style1 said:
Also BobbyJ, you won't be able to upgrade the 8525 to WP7. Hardware isn't up to par.
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Hardware is up to par, only the buttons are not the same.
user Xmoo (does something with testing devices) stated on a dutch forum that there are HD2's running WP7 at HTC Taiwan.
Some user here stated (from internal sources) that it is defenitely possible to run WP7. All microsoft said till this date, that the HD2 doenst have the right buttons.
Im agree totally with you on this subject. Its certainly the only way for Microsoft to capture some decent marketshare.
@style1, you don't no what real multitasking is. Guys from MS already confirmed that thirdy party multitasking won't be allowed. And about other things you said, let me repeat myself: they're trying to make an OS for underage people, retards, music and gaming fans which don't care about the fact that they don't have real multitasking, file system access etc.
pilgrim011 said:
@style1, you don't no what real multitasking is. Guys from MS already confirmed that thirdy party multitasking won't be allowed. And about other things you said, let me repeat myself: they're trying to make an OS for underage people, retards, music and gaming fans which don't care about the fact that they don't have real multitasking, file system access etc.
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I don' remember reading or hearing confirmation that multitasking won't be available. They clearly stated many times that some kind of multitasking will be available. We shall know everything(or almost everything) after MIX.
Stop judging unfinished OS that you don't even know. What you're saying is pure speculation.
style1 said:
OS Fragmentation...this is one of the biggest issues for me. Everytime I see an app I like on this website I have to see if its resolution compatible with my device (WVGA FTW). Go look in the XDA development section for new apps or apps in developments...I'm sure everyone of them will have a post saying "please make this for QVGA" or something similar. This is huge. Android also has a similar issue BTW
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I'm not sure if you can make the OS responsible for that. I'd rather blame it on lazy development. And I don't really say it's so easy. Developing for WM is just so much different than coding for a desktop OS. It's not sufficient at all to just throw some control on a dialog and that's it. Due to small space on screen you have to be really carefully what you do, and always have to keep in mind to NOT develop for a fixed resolution. It's painful but everything UI related needs to be handled dynamically and automatically adjust to whatever screen resolution/orientation. You see the problems that some apps had when the start menu moved to bottom? Few pixels wrong and the app is garbage!! But then... the applications that were developed properly are still working! Go figure!
On the other hand if the framework for WP7 is really THAT great then the whole UI development should be totally resolution independent. This is really needed because I don't think it's right that there's only WVGA for WP7. It was only told that WVGA is the minimium requirement, which for me means in the future there will be higher resolutions and we'd face the same problems again.
It is not specifically the OS, but the "platform" as a whole (screen size, screen type, number of buttons, processor speed, type of buttons, size of RAM, flip phone, slide phone, whatnot, etc).
And yes, it is painful to maintain a lot of builds specific for those kind of varieties.
Not to mention lack OS update because of phone operator / carrier lazyness (I bought my HTC Kaiser unlocked from HTC because I learned that T-Mobile is very slow giving update).
That's why I am glad that Microsoft is now taking control of the minimum hardware specification. Because that would be an advantage of current WM situation, especially to reduce fragmentation as much as possible.
Also the fact that Microsoft will provide OS update and hardware drivers (no more *****ing around about HTC missing drivers).
Instead of developer wandering around to "patch" their apps to work on fragmented platform, or figuring out tricks to over-come missing drivers. They can now enjoy leveraging their creativity for making consistent apps in well supported plaform (WP7).
RAMMANN said:
I'm not sure if you can make the OS responsible for that. I'd rather blame it on lazy development. And I don't really say it's so easy. Developing for WM is just so much different than coding for a desktop OS. It's not sufficient at all to just throw some control on a dialog and that's it. Due to small space on screen you have to be really carefully what you do, and always have to keep in mind to NOT develop for a fixed resolution. It's painful but everything UI related needs to be handled dynamically and automatically adjust to whatever screen resolution/orientation. You see the problems that some apps had when the start menu moved to bottom? Few pixels wrong and the app is garbage!! But then... the applications that were developed properly are still working! Go figure!
On the other hand if the framework for WP7 is really THAT great then the whole UI development should be totally resolution independent. This is really needed because I don't think it's right that there's only WVGA for WP7. It was only told that WVGA is the minimium requirement, which for me means in the future there will be higher resolutions and we'd face the same problems again.
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style1 said:
I mean its borderline ludicrous when people are saying (as this thread ) that he's selling his phone because because he's not sure if he's getting the upgrade to the OS that isn't gonna be released for another 6 months...lol WTF people.
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The problem is not just that the HD2 won't get an upgrade, it's the combination of it not getting an upgrade plus the fact that WP7 will not be backwards-compatible with Windows Moble applications. That is something almost nobody saw coming.
The effect of the non-backwards-compatibility announcement has been to completely kill off Windows Mobile as a viable platform for commercial software development. (Look at Adobe, look at Skype - there will be plenty of other developers jumping ship, most of whom probably won't make any public announcement about it).
If, when I bought my HD2, I had been told "well, it won't get an upgrade to WP7, but any application written for Windows Mobile will run quite happily on WP7, so there's every incentive for people to keep developing for the HD2's platform" that would have been fine. If they'd said "Windows Mobile will cease to be a commercially viable platform 3 months after you buy the phone, but you will eventually get an upgrade to WP7" that would have been okay - not great, but okay. But for them to say "you won't be getting an upgrade and the phone's existing OS is no longer commercially viable as of now" and for them to say that 3 months after I bought it but not to say anything beforehand - that is something I can well understand people being annoyed about.
style1 said:
One guy asked the phone operator about multitasking. The guy replies "the phone itself multitasks." He was then followup asked to go to the home screen and press the back button in which the phone lead him back to to the task he was previously doing (IE: MULTITASKING)....I look on this forum..."WP7 doesn't multitask wtfloljumpfrombuildingdiewithmelmaojkjkjkjk." where did this random unsubstantiated info come from? Its like people aren't even watching, listening, reading anymore.
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No, it's like you aren't paying attention.
There have been a number of announcements and leaks on the subject of multi-tasking, and we now have a pretty clear idea of how it will work. There can only be one foreground application. When a typical application is moved to the background, it will be suspended, but capable of being resumed from the same point when it is reactivated; it will not, however, be capable of actually doing anything while in the background. It will be possible for certain, select applications and services to actually run in the background rather than being paused, but this facility will be available only to applications developed by MS, or by their "partners" - i.e. phone manufacturers and networks.
style1 said:
6.5.3 is awesome and MS has said it will continue to build upon it...
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Yes, but no one takes that claim seriously.
Shasarak said:
If, when I bought my HD2, I had been told "well, it won't get an upgrade to WP7, but any application written for Windows Mobile will run quite happily on WP7, so there's every incentive for people to keep developing for the HD2's platform" that would have been fine. If they'd said "Windows Mobile will cease to be a commercially viable platform 3 months after you buy the phone, but you will eventually get an upgrade to WP7" that would have been okay - not great, but okay. But for them to say "you won't be getting an upgrade and the phone's existing OS is no longer commercially viable as of now" and for them to say that 3 months after I bought it but not to say anything beforehand - that is something I can well understand people being annoyed about.
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If you buy the HD2 then you can develop for the HD2. You can't expect to develop software for devices which are released 1 year later and run a completely different OS. Officially noone really confirmed that HD2 runs WP7. People were spectaculating that it would run on the HD2 but these have only been rumours that shouldn't really make anyone decide to buy the phone. HD2 is as good as a WM 6.5 device can get and that's what it was made for. Nothing more.
Maybe we also forget that WM 6.5.x is brand new and just about to be launched. How many phones have you seen with a 6.5.3 stock ROM? There will still be plenty of new phones coming!
I see the WM 6.5.x vs WP7 scenario to be a bit similar like Windows NT vs. Windows 95. Windows NT was mainly a network OS used in companies while Windows 95 was designed more for the end user that's supposed to play DirectX games and such. And in this case if you bought a PC with Windows NT you couldn't develop games which need to support newest DirectX technology....
RAMMANN said:
If you buy the HD2 then you can develop for the HD2. You can't expect to develop software for devices which are released 1 year later and run a completely different OS. Officially noone really confirmed that HD2 runs WP7. People were spectaculating that it would run on the HD2 but these have only been rumours that shouldn't really make anyone decide to buy the phone. HD2 is as good as a WM 6.5 device can get and that's what it was made for. Nothing more.
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The point is that no one realised WP7 would be "a completely different OS" - we were all completely blindsided by that. No one expected a situation where there wouldn't be a single WM6 application capable of running on WP7. If, as everyone expected and as HTC allowed HD2 buyers to believe, WP7 had been backwards-compatible, WM6.5 would still be a viable platform for commercial software: people could keep on developing software for WM6, secure in the knowledge that it would run just as well on WP7 when that eventually came along. The lack of backwards-compatibility has killed WM6 stone cold dead as a commercial platform: no sensible commercial developer will develop for it at all, anymore, they'll skip straight to WP7 (if they even bother with a Microsoft version at all). Until the no-backwards-compatibility announcement happened, an upgrade was much less important; now, it really matters.
RAMMANN said:
I see the WM 6.5.x vs WP7 scenario to be a bit similar like Windows NT vs. Windows 95. Windows NT was mainly a network OS used in companies while Windows 95 was designed more for the end user that's supposed to play DirectX games and such. And in this case if you bought a PC with Windows NT you couldn't develop games which need to support newest DirectX technology....
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That's such a ridiculous analogy I hardly know where to begin.... Well, for starters, consider just how much Windows 95 software actually ran under NT - pretty much all of it did, with the only exception being games. And for those who needed gaming support, MS continued with fresh releases based on the Windows 95 development stream - 98, 98SE even ME - all of which could run virtually all NT-oriented software as well. Those releases didn't dry up until after full support for DirectX (and even improved DOS emulation) ended up in the NT line.
Microsoft here has done the equivalent of abandoning Windows completely and basing all of its future OS releases on UNIX - if you imagine that people running Windows would be unable to upgrade to the new UNIX OS when it came along. If they had done that, what do you think Windows software developers would have done? And how do you think people who had bought Windows PC's would have felt?
Shasarak said:
Microsoft here has done the equivalent of abandoning Windows completely and basing all of its future OS releases on UNIX - if you imagine that people running Windows would be unable to upgrade to the new UNIX OS when it came along. If they had done that, what do you think Windows software developers would have done? And how do you think people who had bought Windows PC's would have felt?
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Except WM is nowhere near Windows in terms of network effect... Very few people will notice the loss of WM applications (yeah, we here will certainly do, but most users won't, and even most software companies won't). WM has been going along its way to oblivion in terms of market share, and, frankly, we didn't see many (if any at all) big software guys pumping investment into the platform anyway.
Apart from "big" Windows I'd guess the biggest MS-driven market is the XBox. So they chose compatibility with that "ecosystem" over the WM one. Disappointing as it is, I think that it was the right decision for MS really.
If I may address a few things...Aaron Woodman has gone on record saying that there will be multitasking on the phone. Let me just drop an excerpt:
"Among the details unveiled by him in that interview, we can count the fact that there will be multitasking in the new operating system, although previous rumors pointed otherwise. However, the approach on applications is a little different than before, as they will be included/integrated with the hubs Windows Phone OS 7 sports, and this is something that Microsoft is set to detail at MIX10. The main idea, however, is that apps will be there, and that they will be selected so as to be in line with the new user experience the company is trying to promote."
So maybe I as well as microsoft have NO IDEA WHAT MULTITASKING IS. I'm not trying to make opinions and substantiate them with evidence...I'm looking at the evidence and drawing a conclusion from it. M$ says there will be multitasking in their platform then I have to conclude that there will be multitasking even if I haven't personally seen the way it will be handled on a bigger scale. Trying to prove otherwise without any info is just reckless. Now of course it doesn't seem that they are multitasking in the traditional way and I am curious to see exactly how the system is multitasking but if I may speculate I think it deals with the back button. It seems everytime you switch tasks you press the home button then go into your hub of what you are going to do...once you finish you press the home button and go into the next task...since we know the back button doesn't lead to the Homescreen, maybe the back button leads through all the previous tasks in the order that you went through them. That would be simple and unobtrusive. Thats just my speculation based upon the videos I've seen so far...prove me wrong please.
Also about being blindside you're right it was a shock to most. I think M$ has gone on record saying they will still support WM as WPclassic(WPC) so i don't think you guys have just been outright abandoned...but. I wonder, with all the issues that you are labelling about WP7 but still complaining that the HD2 wont be able to upgrade to it, which side of the fence do you really sit on. You can't really be on both sides. But while I'm being prudent HTC has gone on record many times saying the HD2 will be upgradable to WP7, M$ has said that it doesn't plan on upgrading the device. They site the three button crap as a reason but interestingly enough Tony Wilkinson, Microsoft Australia's Business Operations Director, has said that "there are some hardware components that the HD doesn't have." Could this be why the HD2 coming to Tmoble seems to be a beefier version? We don't know but its always fun to speculate. Since M$ hasn't offically released a FULL spec list we have no idea but we will know at MIX10. Hell maybe M$ has no plan on upgrading HD2 but they are leaving it solely up to the manufactures to deliver on that which is why there are 2 conflicting views coming from HTC and M$...who knows right now. But based on the facts these are likely conclusions.
I won't bother with any other thing said because its more off topic..I don't really care whether people think that people will stop developing on 6.5.X just because WP7 is released... they obviously underestimate this site. Hell what more do people need?
~style~
vangrieg said:
Except WM is nowhere near Windows in terms of network effect... Very few people will notice the loss of WM applications
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HD2 users will, which is why they're angry at the lack of an upgrade path.
Shasarak said:
HD2 users will, which is why they're angry at the lack of an upgrade path.
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Some of them will, some won't. I am an HD2 user and I don't care, I don't want to own it for another year anyway, I'd happily exchange it right now if there were something better. I'm sure most HD2 users don't even know what OS their device is running (I know my wife wouldn't know). So we're talking about a few hundred thousand users max. And that's just the user side. A commercial WM developer network is pretty much non-existent right now, apart from SPB, Resco and a couple other small firms.
Well done. I completely agree. I'm looking forward to it. Most users are just bitter and don't want change. I think the main worry with the cooks or other users is that is that it won't offer the amount of customization of 6.5 and below, but they fail to forget that the Iphone is boring until you jailbreak, in the process opening up many possibilities. I think the same will be said for WP7S
Hi there, this post is basically dedicated to current users of windows mobile, who bought their phone because of the virtues an open plattform offers. People like us aren't happy with the direction ms is heading with windows phone 7 and hope that the realize their wrong doing by reimplanting things like multitasking, deep-customization, file-system access, native coding or simply copy, cut and paste.
But why should we buy a windows phone 7 device and hope they transform it to something that resembles wm6 offer time when we could just switch to another plattform?
I mean...
- booth the devices we own and the software we use are not compatible to wp7.
- Android basically got every of the above features wp7 is lagging.
- Android devices are aviable or will be released from every major windows mobile manufacture.
- A lot of software studios will produce for Android.
- Through the ndk Google offers there will probably be more windows mobile software on Android than on windows phone in a year from now.
The only thing wp7 got IMO is the ui, and as we all know from endless debates with the iphone-guys ui is a matter of taste and can be ported...
If you're not a Google or Java hater and Android does what you need... don't hesitate.
Android is good. I'm right now playing with an older Android phone, and although it is very slow (old QCOM processor) and has a small screen, I find the experience to be better than the experience I have with my HD2.
I don't have the slightest doubt anymore that Android is better than iPhone OS or WP7S.
It's smooth.
It has a great, flexible home screen (who needs tiles when you got widgets?).
It has by far the best solution for notifications.
It multitasks.
It has a Marketplace and allows you to side-load apps.
It allows you to access the file system.
It copies and pastes.
It has an NDK.
It is available right now and only getting better.
What you don't get is integration with Microsoft's services, like Windows Live and XBox Live. Of course, there's a good chance that you don't care about them.
I've never used an iPhone but I've dabbled in Android for a while. Mostly, through the Poly port for Kaiser. Here's my views on WM6.5 vs Android.
Windows Mobile GOOD
#1 WM5 sucked. Very unstable, and scrolling speed is very slow. WM6 wasn't much different. WM6.1 become stable, but speed still suffers. WM6.5 very stable, but speed suffers. WM6.5.3 is very stable, and the speed is very fast, including scrolling.
#2 True freedom. You have 3 ways to install applications, and the choice for it to be on the SD card or internal memory. Copy and Paste, and all that jazz.
#3 Customization! Like Mc Donald's says, have it your way.
#4 Huge selection of apps.
Windows Mobile BAD
#1 Lots of problems with 3D acceleration support. Mainly due to OpenGL ES drivers.
#2 Only way to upgrade OS is through custom built roms on XDA-Developers. No support from MS, HTC, and etc.
#3 Majority of applications were written in 2003, and have since been abandoned.
#4 With Phone7 coming soon, developers will completely abandon WM6.5, and move onto Phone 7.
Android GOOD
#1 Based on Linux, which means lots of community support.
#2 Already has an established amount of useful applications.
#3 Very customizable. I've seen some impressive 3D stuff.
#4 You can install applications from the SD card.
#5 Copy and paste exists.
Android BAD
#1 Applications must be installed into main memory, unless you partition your SD card.
#2 Very reliant on a internet connection to do a lot of things.
#3 No Offline GPS option for the Nav.
#4 Google might try to take away the "Google" experience from rom cookers.
#3 No Offline GPS option for the Nav.
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There's IGO8, Copilot... and some others. Or did I get you wrong?
#1 Applications must be installed into main memory, unless you partition your SD card.
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Not anymore, afaik.
#4 Huge selection of apps.
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That's even more true for Android.
But this is not WM6.5 vs. Android. WM6.5 is doomed, so the time will come when you have to switch.
WP7S is not worth waiting for, it's just an iPhone OS clone. So, in my opinion, there's no reason not to switch now, if you want to.
What happens when Android becomes the NEW Windows Mobile? You know it's headed in that direction now. There's like 3 or 4 different versions of the OS and the app community isn't doing well. When WP7 gets its footing in the market (iPhone already has), it's going to be really difficult to compete with these. Perhaps Android will be relegated to low-end smartphones
C:Sharp! said:
There's IGO8, Copilot... and some others. Or did I get you wrong?
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I mean the built in Nav software, which the new one is pretty cool. I could use Ndrive, but I really like the built in Nav.
Not anymore, afaik.
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Maybe it's because I'm using a port for the HTC Kaiser. If that's the case, that can be scratched off the list.
WhyBe said:
What happens when Android becomes the NEW Windows Mobile? You know it's headed in that direction now. There's like 3 or 4 different versions of the OS and the app community isn't doing well. When WP7 gets its footing in the market (iPhone already has), it's going to be really difficult to compete with these. Perhaps Android will be relegated to low-end smartphones
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Won't happen for various reasons. Windows Mobile was never really taken seriously by Microsoft until now, but Android has Google behind them.
It's a lot like what happened to Internet Explorer. When Microsoft won the browser war between Netscape, they left it completely alone. Suddenly FireFox, Chrome, Safari, and Opera are kicking it's ass. Same thing happened with Windows Mobile. iPhone, and Android appeared and took Microsoft by surprise.
Also, since it's linux based, it can never truly die. The community has it's hands on it now, and they'll never let go. Don't be surprised if we see Linux distros in the Future for many phones. Something like Ubuntu or Slackware could become common to see on cooked phone roms, in a couple of years.
iPhone and Windows Phone 7 will still be popular, but does anyone truly believe that phones with so many restrictions will last? I'm sure Microsoft is betting that the Xbox feature will grab people, much like Apple is betting on that their fan base will always grab customers.
Won't happen for various reasons. Windows Mobile was never really taken seriously by Microsoft until now, but Android has Google behind them.
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Google has one success, that is it's search engine. This does not automatically mean success with other endeavors.
It's a lot like what happened to Internet Explorer. When Microsoft won the browser war between Netscape, they left it completely alone. Suddenly FireFox, Chrome, Safari, and Opera are kicking it's ass.
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Nothing is kicking IE's ass. What world are you living in?
Same thing happened with Windows Mobile. iPhone, and Android appeared and took Microsoft by surprise.
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MS deserved it.
Also, since it's linux based, it can never truly die. The community has it's hands on it now, and they'll never let go. Don't be surprised if we see Linux distros in the Future for many phones. Something like Ubuntu or Slackware could become common to see on cooked phone roms, in a couple of years.
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It may not die, per se, but it definitely will never be big. Niche product at best. There's too much confusion in open systems. How many incompatible Android OS'es are out now? Modern smartphones will win or lose based on their apps. Androids app situation sucks right now.
iPhone and Windows Phone 7 will still be popular, but does anyone truly believe that phones with so many restrictions will last? I'm sure Microsoft is betting that the Xbox feature will grab people, much like Apple is betting on that their fan base will always grab customers.
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This is smart business. Use your existing successes to build a customer base. All smart companies do this...even Google.
WhyBe said:
Google has one success, that is it's search engine. This does not automatically mean success with other endeavors.
Click to expand...
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Gmail
Google Map
Chrome Web Broswer
Google voice
YouTube
All this is offered for free.
Nothing is kicking IE's ass. What world are you living in?
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This world.
If you added IE6+IE7+IE8, then you can say it's more popular then FireFox. You have to wonder, if people are still using IE6 then it's most likely they probably don't know about other web browsers, or don't even know what one is. You know the type, logs on twitter, facebook, and myspace and uses AIM to chat to people.
It may not die, per se, but it definitely will never be big. Niche product at best. There's too much confusion in open systems. How many incompatible Android OS'es are out now?
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No more then Windows Mobile will have. We'll soon have legacy Windows Mobile 6.5, and Phone 7. Neither are compatible.
Modern smartphones will win or lose based on their apps. Androids app situation sucks right now.
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Not sure about Windows Phone 7, but iPhone has it horrible right now.
No porn apps
No emulators
No web browsers
No flash support
Android may not have as many pull my finger apps or farting apps as iPhone, but at least we can have all of the above. iPhone and Phone7 owners will be able to have 100 different choices of how to make fart noises from their phone, while I'll be able to view flash websites. While iPhone and Phone7 will enjoy half ass made games for their phones, eventually Android will get a Playstation and N64 emulator. I consider any Genesis or SNES game to be far superior then any 3D accelerated game they can put on those phones as is.
The biggest blunder from Apple was them pulling the porn apps. Everyone knows the internet and DVDs became popular due to porn. Enforcing that rule is sure suicide, despite the horrible image of me walking into a public bathroom and finding someone wacking off to porn on their Android phone.
When Mozilla ports FireFox to Android, I'll be able to use ABP and NoScript to have a truly secure surfing experience. While IE on Phone7 fails horribly on the Acid3 test. As it is IE9 gets a 55/100 on Acid3.
Just from what I've mentioned I say there's plenty of incentive to go with an open OS. Jail break your iPhone or **** break your Phone7, but you'll be in this endless battle between Microsoft or Apple.
Dukenukemx said:
Gmail
Google Map
Chrome Web Broswer
Google voice
YouTube
All this is offered for free.
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Click to collapse
Chrome Web Browser? A success? You must be kidding me. No, I'm not saying it's a bad product. But can you imagine how much money a promo campaign like Google did for Chrome, would cost a third party? So you spend billions of dollars (even though "virtual" in this case) and get absolutely laughable market share. Success?
YouTube they bought for a ridiculous amount of money, and it's a cash disposer. Yeah, we all enjoy it, no doubt about it. The more we enjoy it the more money Google coughs out on it. Windows Mobile is a bigger success than this.
Google Maps? You forgot Gmail. Some 90%+ of Google's income comes from its home page. Not even Adsense, which ads a few percentage points. So no, Google hasn't had a single success in any area apart from search, even though they've been trying to diversify like crazy because they are really scared of what may happen if they lose their search engine domination. The problem is, by doing all this free stuff everywhere about the only thing they achieve is that they technically cannot "fail". Sure, you don't set revenue targets, you just burn cash, what's a failure?
I love WM 6.5.3 and right now my phone (TD2) is just perfect the way it is. And if someday I want something to change then I can just flash a new ROM, install a cab or write another tool on my own.
I hate Android because your applications are running in a Java VM and you can't access the OS kernel functions like you can with WM.
Though yesterday I just for fun run Android on a Touch Diamond. I have to admit the UI is really nice done, even though it isn't THAT MUCH different compared to the user experience you get with 6.5.3. Some window animations here and there and I love it like you can pull down the taskbar and I like the multiple homescreen thing. Though I couldn't do a lot of things with it because for most things it needed a data connection (I didn't plug in a SIM card) and USB/WiFi didn't work. Also it asked me to sign up for Google account all the time. On 6.5.3 on the other hand some things are quite better implemented, for example start menu or Sense. I also like it that you can reach all functions through your touch screen. On Android you're always forced to use the hard keys to close a window or get out of an app. After all I wonder if it's possible to hack into the taskbar or bottom bar like I do on WM but due to Java VM environment I doubt you can do that.
After all, right now there's no reason why I should switch to Android. However I don't know what the situation will be in the next 1-2 years. So in the end all I can say: On the longer run it might be the only OS able to replace 6.5.3 in the future but right now it's just too limited for my taste (in other words I can also say it doesn't give me enough features to forget about some limits). But I definitely keep an eye on it
vangrieg said:
Chrome Web Browser? A success? You must be kidding me. No, I'm not saying it's a bad product. But can you imagine how much money a promo campaign like Google did for Chrome, would cost a third party? So you spend billions of dollars (even though "virtual" in this case) and get absolutely laughable market share. Success?
YouTube they bought for a ridiculous amount of money, and it's a cash disposer. Yeah, we all enjoy it, no doubt about it. The more we enjoy it the more money Google coughs out on it. Windows Mobile is a bigger success than this.
Google Maps? You forgot Gmail. Some 90%+ of Google's income comes from its home page. Not even Adsense, which ads a few percentage points. So no, Google hasn't had a single success in any area apart from search, even though they've been trying to diversify like crazy because they are really scared of what may happen if they lose their search engine domination. The problem is, by doing all this free stuff everywhere about the only thing they achieve is that they technically cannot "fail". Sure, you don't set revenue targets, you just burn cash, what's a failure?
Click to expand...
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+100
Thanks Vangrieg, you beat me to it
vangrieg said:
Chrome Web Browser? A success? You must be kidding me. No, I'm not saying it's a bad product. But can you imagine how much money a promo campaign like Google did for Chrome, would cost a third party? So you spend billions of dollars (even though "virtual" in this case) and get absolutely laughable market share. Success?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It is success, even though the way to reach it is.... strange!?
But are Microsoft doing any better? They're just buying off companies if they need a new feature.
Google is buying new companies if they need a new feature - Android and YouTube are good examples. Microsoft isn't much better, but they have at least 2.5 sources of income - Windows, Office and Server/Tools. Now, that's a much better success because they sell that stuff. You have to be a complete loser to provide something that usually costs money for free, having a huge pile of cash and the world's largest web ad brokerage to not get a sizable market share. Yet Google does it all the time with Buzzes, Waves and all that acid-driven stuff that even tech savvy people rarely understand. And yeah, they'll muck up more than once with Android, the patent protection issue for OEMs is just the first bell that rang.
vangrieg said:
.. You have to be a complete loser to provide something that usually costs money for free ...
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xda-developers provide a lot of free stuff, are they losers too? I don't think so
XDA is not a business, we're here for fun. Oh, and one little nuance, XDA doesn't have 20 billion dollars to burn and can't put an ad on every freakin' web site out there.
Dukenukemx said:
Windows Mobile BAD
#1 Lots of problems with 3D acceleration support. Mainly due to OpenGL ES drivers.
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That's not a deficiency of Windows Mobile, it's a deficiency of phones manufactured by HTC. Users of the Toshiba TG01 and Acer neoTouch are very happy with their 3D support, and indeed with their hardware-accelerated video playback of virtually any codec and wrapper format.
vangrieg said:
Google is buying new companies if they need a new feature - Android and YouTube are good examples. Microsoft isn't much better, but they have at least 2.5 sources of income - Windows, Office and Server/Tools. Now, that's a much better success because they sell that stuff. You have to be a complete loser to provide something that usually costs money for free, having a huge pile of cash and the world's largest web ad brokerage to not get a sizable market share. Yet Google does it all the time with Buzzes, Waves and all that acid-driven stuff that even tech savvy people rarely understand. And yeah, they'll muck up more than once with Android, the patent protection issue for OEMs is just the first bell that rang.
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I don't understand it as well, but seems like it's working for them. Microsoft offer more products because they are around way longer. Google are only here for roughly 10 years. Look up what MS had to offer after 10 years of existence, which was in 1985.
Actually, if you carefully listen to what Google execs say, it's not working for them. They are very nervous. I agree that one of the key problems is that they just started to diversify. They are doing too many mistakes though which are relatively easy to avoid. It's actually a funny phenomenon you can often see in companies driven by engineers because they're so into technologies and inventions and such that they just can't resist pushing their cool new things out the door. Google is in fact a lot like Microsoft, only less mature and disciplined, in this regard. A contrast to this approach is Apple where hardly anyone ever sees a beta product, and the company is incredibly focused.
Apart from product development, there's one more thing where Google doesn't have a lot of experience, and that's partnering with others. Jobs once said that he absolutely admires Gates's abilities in this regard, saying that in fact, with all the spats, fan base animosity, tensions and all, Microsoft is the only long-term partner Apple has had through all these years, and the partnership works amazingly well for both parties. He even noted that MS is the second largest developer of software for Apple products after Apple. Google has a long way to learn how to maze through all these issues and make lasting relationships. It's one thing to attract everyone with a free product and give OEMs better bargaining position against Microsoft with a mobile OS, it's a totally different thing to carry it on to market leadership with so many conflicting interests and challenges.
Sure OEMs flirt with open source OSes, IBMs and HPs of the world are investing a lot of resources into Linux development and all, but at the end of the day which OS shows up as "recommended" on their web sites? Sure HTC is all about Android, Open Handset Alliance and all that PR stuff these days, but what does its CEO say when asked why HD2 was a WM device? "We have to take care of Windows Mobile first".
WhyBe said:
What happens when Android becomes the NEW Windows Mobile?
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This is not going to happen.
Contrary to what some people believe, "fragmentation" does not hurt Android much and it's not what made Windows Mobile die.
Windows Mobile died, because it got zero support from Microsoft over many years. There was no money and no developers. They could easily have made it competitive to the iPhone within a year. But they didn't. It took them one and a half years to even figure out what to do and end all the internal battles, which is an eternity in the mobile space.
Google stand behind their mobile OS and you can be sure that they will fix any problems that emerge. If fragmentation becomes too much of an issue, they'll fix it. If the UI gets outdated, they'll fix it. Microsoft didn't fix anything.
And aside from that, it will take Windows Phone 7 at least another year, to even become an option. Handsets must be launched, bugs will have to be fixed and the Marketplace has to be filled. Only then will it be competitive, if ever.
That's plenty of time before you can even consider Windows Phone 7, thus switching to Android now is not wasted money.
RAMMANN said:
I don't understand it as well, but seems like it's working for them. Microsoft offer more products because they are around way longer. Google are only here for roughly 10 years. Look up what MS had to offer after 10 years of existence, which was in 1985.
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Click to collapse
How can you compare this?
A lot of what Google has done the last 10 years is based on what MS and others made possible the first 10 years.
It's like saying that Ferrari has accomplished more then Ford because they have made better and faster cars the last 10 years then Ford did the first 10.
Ferrari might not have existed today if their wasn't someone that made engines and wheels before them.
Android is the first (open source) Linux OS that has been sold on a device. although you call it open source it's not more open the WM or iPhone.
Google is controlling the development of the OS and anyone can make applications for it.. whats the difference now between android, WM or iPhone? and witch one of them is most open source? all of them have the same. A company that develops the OS and developers making the apps.
I only see MS going less open source with WP7.
and to not having porn apps and other stuff on iPhone well jailbreak and you have it.
Now some will say you can't do anything without jailbraking an iphone. Well without Hard spl you are also kind of sucked on WM.
Android has already several updates and can't be run by all older devices.
WM also have a few updates but a wizard that is quite an old device can run WM 6.5.
Did a search and couldn't find anything but it appears that when the Guys at Skype decided to discontinue Skype for Windows Mobile they also decided that they wouldn't be developing for WP7 any time soon.
David Flynn at apcmag.com said:
Citing a second-rate “user experience” compared to the iPhone and Android, Skype admits it has no immediate plans to release an app for Windows Phone 7.
Skype is working full steam ahead on an app for the iPad and the next-gen iPhone, but users of Windows Phone 7 will have to take a number and wait… and wait… and wait.
Skype’s Asia Pacific Vice-President Dan Neary says that Microsoft’s forthcoming smartphone OS is not a priority when it comes to mobile platforms.
“We try and focus not only where the need is but where the best experience is, and we feel that the best areas for us to develop are on the operating systems that we currently support – iPhone, Symbian, BlackBerry and now Android” Neary told APC during a press briefing in Sydney today. “We simply feel that those operating systems (have) a much better user experience”.
Neary said that while a Skype app for Windows Phone 7 “is on the roadmap, the question is how quickly we’re going to get to it. We feel that we are best best deployed on other operating systems (for now) and we’ll see how the space evolves.”
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article here
screw skype then, does windows mobile messenger support voice chat?
C'mon now
The main part of this article was about Skype abandoning development for the current WinMobile (6.5). They were talking about which platforms were currently supported. Why would they be talking about an app for an OS that hasn't been released yet.
lordcanti86 said:
The main part of this article was about Skype abandoning development for the current WinMobile (6.5). They were talking about which platforms were currently supported. Why would they be talking about an app for an OS that hasn't been released yet.
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err...I interpreted it differently...to me it sounds like they're not going to bother for a while.
Neary said that while a Skype app for Windows Phone 7 “is on the roadmap, the question is how quickly we’re going to get to it. We feel that we are best best deployed on other operating systems (for now) and we’ll see how the space evolves.”
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coupled with
Skype’s Asia Pacific Vice-President Dan Neary says that Microsoft’s forthcoming smartphone OS is not a priority when it comes to mobile platforms.
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..sound to me like they'll wait to see how well the platform takes off before considering beginning development.
welki1979 said:
err...I interpreted it differently...to me it sounds like they're not going to bother for a while.
coupled with
..sound to me like they'll wait to see how well the platform takes off before considering beginning development.
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Which is fine. Either wp7 will be successful and they will port it over ~3 months after release. Or wp7 will fail and it wouldn't matter either way if skype existed or not.
As an aside, anyone came across any information about kin sales?
gom99 said:
As an aside, anyone came across any information about kin sales?
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Actually yes, but its 3rd party info. I have a friend at that Carphone place... they've had a briefing on the Kin range and are expecting units to be released to them late july apparently.
I tried to get some sort of confirmation of this but as yet all I've managed to find out came from one of the shop staff who made a comment about them being late or something. (not really sure it was mumbled quietly as he walked off)
Suprisingly enough though there is nothing on the GSM Arena site despite the fact that the HTC Mondrian is listed there (a WP7 phone).
gom99 said:
Which is fine. Either wp7 will be successful and they will port it over ~3 months after release. Or wp7 will fail and it wouldn't matter either way if skype existed or not.
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And if every developer thinks like this, there will be zero apps for WP7 when it launches --> nobody will buy it, cause it has no apps --> nobody will make apps for it, cause it has no users --> ...
And by the way, Skype is not alone. So far I have not seen one developer, who thinks the tools offered are enough to make good applications (that means, stuff that does a little more than farts).
Silverlight etc. is fine and all, but now is not the right time for Microsoft to start over like this, hecause the competition is too far ahead. They should improve upon what they have, and make a slow transition to the new tools etc. when they can afford it.
But now it's too late anyway, they already dumped everything they had.
shaundalglish said:
And if every developer thinks like this, there will be zero apps for WP7 when it launches --> nobody will buy it, cause it has no apps --> nobody will make apps for it, cause it has no users --> ...
And by the way, Skype is not alone. So far I have not seen one developer, who thinks the tools offered are enough to make good applications (that means, stuff that does a little more than farts).
Silverlight etc. is fine and all, but now is not the right time for Microsoft to start over like this, hecause the competition is too far ahead. They should improve upon what they have, and make a slow transition to the new tools etc. when they can afford it.
But now it's too late anyway, they already dumped everything they had.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The problem is that trying to maintain backwards compatibility with all those apps that were designed for stylus input and resistive touch screens was what allowed the competition to get so far ahead in the first place. The only thing they could have done was to start over because that forces developers to redevelop apps that are designed for finger input, compactive touch screens, and work better with the new OS.
shaundalglish said:
And if every developer thinks like this, there will be zero apps for WP7 when it launches --> nobody will buy it, cause it has no apps --> nobody will make apps for it, cause it has no users --> ...
And by the way, Skype is not alone. So far I have not seen one developer, who thinks the tools offered are enough to make good applications (that means, stuff that does a little more than farts).
Silverlight etc. is fine and all, but now is not the right time for Microsoft to start over like this, hecause the competition is too far ahead. They should improve upon what they have, and make a slow transition to the new tools etc. when they can afford it.
But now it's too late anyway, they already dumped everything they had.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Maybe you should look at the videos from MWC and MIX 2010, then you'll see that there are some quite amazing apps in development. They demonstrated a Netflix, an Associated Press, a Seesmic, a Shazam and MLS app and a bunch of games. You can expect apps from EA Mobile, Fandango, Pandora, Foursquare, IMDB, Namco, PopCap Games, Photobucket and SPB Software just to name a few (that list is a bit longer than that) and because the developer tools are already available I expect many many more apps than that.
"Amazing"? lol yeah if bling bling is all you want...
shaundalglish said:
"Amazing"? lol yeah if bling bling is all you want...
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So Netflix is bling bling? Or a game like The Harvester is also just bling bling? What about Shazam?
Oh come on... Shazam is always the first app that gets ported to any new OS, because there's nothing complicated about it. Games are of course just bling bling. And 96% of the world's population couldn't care less about Netflix.
I just prefer functionality, that's all. WP7 is not going to deliver this.
shaundalglish said:
I just prefer functionality, that's all. WP7 is not going to deliver this.
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You mean to say that you believe it's not going to deliver the functionality that you deem to be important. It's still going to be a great communication, social networking, maps/navigation, multimedia and gaming platform and that's what most people want from their smartphones these days. I agree with you that WP7 is missing quite a bit of features, but I don't think those missing features are deal breakers for the average consumer.
No it's not going to deliver a lot of functionality at all, regardless of which features I personally use.
shaundalglish said:
No it's not going to deliver a lot of functionality at all, regardless of which features I personally use.
Click to expand...
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what features are those?
Also calling something a fart app or bling bling is misleading. The majority of apps people actually consume fall into that category.
Not that I disagree with what you're trying to say but many of the advanced apps of windows mobile are just hacks to correct the lacking default user experience of wm. I do think you're being too hardlined though.
but I definitely don't like some decisions they're making with some of the current advanced features. eg: file system, data storage, side loading.
The problems as I see it is that the APIs is to poor at the moment.
No sockets support -> Some apps will have serious problems, e.g. Skype.
No way to access Bluetooth.
Very limited access to media.
This are the main things that make me doubt on this platform. I'm fine with it being locked down, just not too much.
Should we really be bothered by such trivial issue?There are better alternative apps like Fring and Nimbuzz that perfectly connects to the skype node,allowing you to still skype and be skyped.
blackrider said:
Should we really be bothered by such trivial issue?There are better alternative apps like Fring and Nimbuzz that perfectly connects to the skype node,allowing you to still skype and be skyped.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Except Fring won't be possible in WP7 either. Skype is a proprietary P2P protocol, and implementing it would require ability to manipulate sockets. One could possibly implement an http version of a client that would connect to a central server and then the server would communicate with other Skype users, but that would be difficult, costly and ultimately useless because it would only serve as a temporary workaround until socket support comes to WP7 APIs.
vangrieg said:
Except Fring won't be possible in WP7 either. Skype is a proprietary P2P protocol, and implementing it would require ability to manipulate sockets. One could possibly implement an http version of a client that would connect to a central server and then the server would communicate with other Skype users, but that would be difficult, costly and ultimately useless because it would only serve as a temporary workaround until socket support comes to WP7 APIs.
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Click to collapse
Socket support for WP7 will come later but is not in initial release.
havox22 said:
Socket support for WP7 will come later but is not in initial release.
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Click to collapse
Hopefully they'll hurry up, since I'm fear that I (and many others) will stand without good/any music support.
I'm a big user of Spotify, a streaming music service, which I'm sure will require Sockets to work, because it's Superior responsiveness is based on a P2P protocol. Before anyone say anything else, the phones won't share the media, but they'll download from desktop clients.
Hopefully they'll release some custom version anyway. Responsiveness won't be a problem on Mobile devices where most people have the "important" stuff in Offline cache anyways.
I am sure everyone now realises how so many critical features are lacking from a phone. It was released 4 months back, but even after 2 long years of wait, it seems to be a 'pre-mature' release.
A 12 year old boy knows that silent mode, copy/paste and multitasking is like a basic thing, and now its almost 5 months since its release and their has been zero updates.
One thing I dont realise is, does it really took microsoft 2 long years to build WP7, what is built in it except the front screen?? All other features which should be in a phone are lacking. And all other interface has been ripped from Zune. So if it takes 2 years for a company to build the front screen of a brick phone with zero options, they should have just contracted SPB Software House Co. and they would have dont it in 6 months and not 2 years.
The Windows Phone 7 team isn't that big actually. Besides, the iPhone idea began in 2005 and took 2 years to come to life.
Of course, I agree that the lack of update so far is disturbing.
They're basic things but not necessary things. My WP7 gets along much better than any iphone or android without those things but of course I dont use mine as a business device. As a media device it is second to none, I used android for 2 years and never once used c&p or put my phone on anything lower than vibrate. As for multi-tasking if apps were built the way they were supposed to be then they wouldn't need it. They have showed vodeos of how some apps were built to go back to the exact same point when hitting the back button. This is likely to keep it from running slow and becoming unresponsive. Sort of like android which is what I will always consider a "brick-phone."
Purple11 said:
It was released 4 months back
...
and now its almost 5 months since its release
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So which is it? Four or five? Oh wait, it's actually three months and a day since it was launched.
Crawl back under your rock please.
Not again
Purple11 said:
I am sure everyone now realises how so many critical features are lacking from a phone. It was released 4 months back, but even after 2 long years of wait, it seems to be a 'pre-mature' release.
A 12 year old boy knows that silent mode, copy/paste and multitasking is like a basic thing, and now its almost 5 months since its release and their has been zero updates.
One thing I dont realise is, does it really took microsoft 2 long years to build WP7, what is built in it except the front screen?? All other features which should be in a phone are lacking. And all other interface has been ripped from Zune. So if it takes 2 years for a company to build the front screen of a brick phone with zero options, they should have just contracted SPB Software House Co. and they would have dont it in 6 months and not 2 years.
Click to expand...
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How many more of these idiotic threads do we have to have??? Can the mods close this down? "All other features which should be in a phone are lacking", "a brick phone", how many arguments based upon false statements do we have to tolerate? After years in this forum and intelligent discussions with many members, some with opposite viewpoints, this forum has degenerated to this level? This is really sad and a sad day for this forum. Free speech, I understand, this level of speech I don't.
You can say somebody didn't use a search button and didn't post this in existing threads.
But at the same time when will you finally understand that the amount of THE SAME complaints is also a measure of a real WP7 reception among customers?
Better ask MS to push any update soon than moan about people who spend their cash and get disappointed by some MS logic.
doministry said:
But at the same time when will you finally understand that the amount of THE SAME complaints is also a measure of a real WP7 reception among customers?
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Hardly, as regular consumers don't frequent these forums. The views expressed on this website are so far from the way the average consumer feels it's like comparing apples and houses. The vast majority of consumers are perfectly happy with their WP7 devices as is, don't confuse a few thousand tech-geeks on some website with the average soccer mom down the block or her kid.
Something I learned about Microsoft... never underestimate them and write them off
You don't need to look further than the Xbox series for an example.
emigrating said:
Hardly, as regular consumers don't frequent these forums. The views expressed on this website are so far from the way the average consumer feels it's like comparing apples and houses. The vast majority of consumers are perfectly happy with their WP7 devices as is, don't confuse a few thousand tech-geeks on some website with the average soccer mom down the block or her kid.
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Click to collapse
This is complete lie and disgusting excuse for not improving products.
This is indeed some kind of racism.
In fact the truth is complely opposite.
As I work with very many people through the year, I can say I have my own personal survey regarding this, with "average" consumer.
Most of people who use any kind of smartphone are aware of these things, they just don't have enough interest to voice them in public.
Underestimating people and treating them like mass of idiots is disgusting.
Stop this lie.
remember this is just the first release.. sure, it has taken them a long time to make it, but that doesnt mean that the time was wasted.. Im pretty impressed with the amount of speed and fluidity MS has been able to squeeze out of our 1ghz devices
considering the animations present (even android is laggy if not overclocked)
copy paste will be released as an update, which isnt a problem coz remember this is a new OS and not that many people will just dive into it on the first release.
as for multitasking, consider this.. a smartphone isnt like a desktop/laptop pc, only one app can be displayed on the screen.. why would you need another app fully running on the background taking up all the cpu resources while it could just be kept on standby and maybe just part of it could be running (notifications part)
this is the main reason why android and winmo 6.5 were slow in the first place (android wanted to use the same idea but just messed up, thats why 3rd party task managers are there to help out)
so at the end of the day, we hate the new OS because we're used to the old one.. which is really not cool
jjblaster3 said:
this is the main reason why android and winmo 6.5 were slow in the first place (android wanted to use the same idea but just messed up, thats why 3rd party task managers are there to help out)
so at the end of the day, we hate the new OS because we're used to the old one.. which is really not cool
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
man this is just wrong.
Sent from my Nexus One using XDA App
Actually, Android don't do that. Yes, they keep using RAM in background. BUT! In Linux systems RAM is not managed the way they are in Windows.
Windows = The more free memory you have, better, faster.
Linux = Doesn't matter how much free memory you have. It will run smoothly.
So Android do the same thing. Whenever you have free memory, it will keep the App running. When you need more RAM, it will decide which app is useless or less useful and close.
Battery is not affected too.
Under the hood, Android is pretty smart, actually. I just don't like the "above the hood". The widget things and editable home is useful, tough.
jjblaster3 said:
as for multitasking, consider this.. a smartphone isnt like a desktop/laptop pc, only one app can be displayed on the screen.. why would you need another app fully running on the background taking up all the cpu resources while it could just be kept on standby and maybe just part of it could be running (notifications part)
this is the main reason why android and winmo 6.5 were slow in the first place (android wanted to use the same idea but just messed up, thats why 3rd party task managers are there to help out)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is just dumb excuse. And not true.
Symbian UIQ devices back in 2007 could multitask without any slowdown.
My computer doesn't slow down even if I heavily multitask.
There are dozens of scenarios when we need it. Becuse current solution leads to idiotic reloading/rebooting apps and processes.
The simplest is when I'm in the Facebook app and get sms and start a short sms chat. When I finnish instead of continuing what I was doing there, I have to reboot everything and go through all the process. It's a crap.
At least IE behaves normally and Word.
Purple11 said:
I am sure everyone now realises how so many critical features are lacking from a phone. It was released 4 months back, but even after 2 long years of wait, it seems to be a 'pre-mature' release.
A 12 year old boy knows that silent mode, copy/paste and multitasking is like a basic thing, and now its almost 5 months since its release and their has been zero updates.
One thing I dont realise is, does it really took microsoft 2 long years to build WP7, what is built in it except the front screen?? All other features which should be in a phone are lacking. And all other interface has been ripped from Zune. So if it takes 2 years for a company to build the front screen of a brick phone with zero options, they should have just contracted SPB Software House Co. and they would have dont it in 6 months and not 2 years.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why does is have to have those features though? I like Android, don't get me wrong. But people expect this OS to live by Android standards, when it doesn't need to. It's annoying to see the same thing over and over.
vbetts said:
Why does is have to have those features though? I like Android, don't get me wrong. But people expect this OS to live by Android standards, when it doesn't need to. It's annoying to see the same thing over and over.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Buhahaha! Great one.
Because it's basics!
With this kind of attitude MS has no chance to do anything with this OS.
I just hope they don't think your way.
People expect things because a very high standard is already established.
Did you live in a cave last few years?!
The same was with processor speeds, capactive screens, big cameras.
Do you release today a smartphone with a 1,3mpx camera "because you live in a different standard"? Lol, man.
To little to late? Don't make me laugh.
WP7 launches with:
- Smooth and intuitive interface.
- Microsoft Office Integration.
- Xbox Live integration
- Zune with Zune Pas integration
- Fastest growing marketplace ever
- Fastest boot time of any OS
- Windows Live Integration
- IE7 Port from Windows
- Smart Multitasking foundation with dehydrating applications
First Update for WP7 next month brings:
- C&P support
- Better memory management for faster app launch
- Drivers for newer Qualcomm chipsets
- CDMA Antenna Support
- Phone Backups on Zune
Fall Update Mango brings:
- IE9 port from Windows
- Silverlight & HTML5 support in browser
- Trident 5 Rendering Engine
- Far Eastern Language Support
- More Unspecified Features
I fail to see how an OS with such promise can be too late in a smartphone war that isn't even close to having half of the cell phone market. User bases for smartphones are expected to double within the next few years so I guess the naysayers should tell them all that they have to choose iOS, Android, or RIM devices because smaller platforms like WP7, WebOS, and MeeGO aren't allowed to compete.
With a little correction:
All those dates and specified updates are RUMOURS. Not a "promise"
Nowhere officially confirmed, anywhere.
Backstage forums, which are nice, give no info about it either,
neither any official MS info channel.
So we can agree with you above once WE SEE IT.
Now we know nothing, or - a little.
JamesAllen said:
How many more of these idiotic threads do we have to have??? Can the mods close this down? "All other features which should be in a phone are lacking", "a brick phone", how many arguments based upon false statements do we have to tolerate? After years in this forum and intelligent discussions with many members, some with opposite viewpoints, this forum has degenerated to this level? This is really sad and a sad day for this forum. Free speech, I understand, this level of speech I don't.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well said, nothing to add!
doministry said:
...Most of people who use any kind of smartphone are aware of these things, they just don't have enough interest to voice them in public...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think you're right with that statement. Just because all the owners of a smartphone out there don't talk about the OS on their phones doesn't mean that they don't understand the topic. I mean, I know a 60 year old man who has never been interested in such things before and who isn't interested a the moment, but he does know what Android, WP7 and iOS are...
AND: WP7 has got a silent mode! Or are you too dumb to turn off the ringing?
Most of people I know using smartphones are pretty much informed about features.
They don't use forums. But they are really disappointed by many things. This applies to all OS'es.
For instance, iPhone is faulty, not solid product. Besides people carrying this like a baby, most of users have power-button **** up...... Never read about it on any tech news portal. Etc......
doministry said:
With a little correction:
All those dates and specified updates are RUMOURS. Not a "promise"
Nowhere officially confirmed, anywhere.
Backstage forums, which are nice, give no info about it either,
neither any official MS info channel.
So we can agree with you above once WE SEE IT.
Now we know nothing, or - a little.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually, the NoDo update is pretty much confirmed. C&P was showed at CES. The codename was confirmed by Charlie Kindel from MS. Paul Thurrott is more than a reliable source of anything MS so I'm willing to bet he's right especially since all of the above features are supported in WCE7.
The slowness of WP continues to disappoint.
In windows mobile we had:
-file system access and USB mass storage (since 2000)
-VPN support (since 2002)
-SIP VOIP (since 2007)
-almost full support for Exchange.
-copy and paste
-multitasking
-directly installable apps
-business-class security features
In 2010 WP7 was released without these features. In 2011 we will have copy and paste and multitasking. This is a diabolically slow rate of progress. Instead, we have play features like twitter support, ability to wave the phone in front of a TV, great.
Businesses are Microsoft's most important and successful market. When will WP support features for businesses and serious users? 2012? 2013?
The slow rate of progress was cemented in Ballmer's speech today. No wonder Nokia's shares continued to fall. Microsoft could have timed basic feature-completeness to coincide with Nokia's entry. Instead, when their phones come out in late 2011, WP7 will still be a toy OS.
Windows mobile was dying. By focusing on consumers Apple was steadily encroaching into the business users. MS had no option but to ditch Windows mobile and go for the consumer market.
digger1985 said:
Windows mobile was dying. By focusing on consumers Apple was steadily encroaching into the business users. MS had no option but to ditch Windows mobile and go for the consumer market.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Honestly, I think windows mobile just need to be refined. It was lacking stability and user interface and hardware quality. The lack of that is the freezes, slow down both short term and long term and ease of use. The combination of improved hardware and improved UI and consistent use would have gone a long way towards core users since most people assume WP7 is WM7 anyways.
The only guess I can take is that they either couldn't recover from the state the code was in or more likely just went the Iphone route. From what I read WM7 was scrapped and Zune developers took over.
why not ask on social.microsoft.com... that is more direct line than here...
i would imagine that they are going to introduce more than just what they've listed. when you are going to give a general roadmap, you would give the big highlights, not everything.
Windows Mobile is most functional moile OS of all time, even Android cannot beat WM on functionality. However, the sales proved that WM is not welcomed by majority of the market. This is reasonnable.
You are using a cell phone. How many calls do you make everyday? Then how many C&Ps?
Just refining WM might not be good enough to save MS on phones.
“True multitasking” drains battery. And whatever perfection the system itself can reach, its stablity cannot survive badly written apps and unlimited modification.
Also there was a problem for WM app ecosystem. Kind like what we are seeing on Android now, maybe worse...
At least there is Office on WP... Also remote lock?
The OP has a good point, and people are just ragging him without even thinking about it.
The rate of progress is slow. Look at the interview with the product manager. Guy should be fired, since he obviously failed in some aspect of his job in handling WP7 development and updates.
They are developing a phone for consumers, and decided to not release a 1st party WLM client, for example.
2 Months later, after they launch WP7, Microsoft releases a 1st party WLM client for iOS, then they releases OneNote for iOS.
Not only is it a slow rate of progress, but they are constantly *****-slapping their own customers. Why get a WP7 device over an Apple iPhone or an Android Phone + iTouch with Wireless Tethering, if Microsoft will give more attention to iOS than WP7. iOS has gotten more "updates" from the Windows Live team than WP7 since WP7 was launched. I wouldn't be surprised to see a Zune app for Mac and a Zune Pass Quasi-App for iOS in a few months, along with XBox Live goodies... At the moment it doesn't seem like they have a clue what direction they want to move in, or what market they want to target to be honest...
It seems disingenuous to sell WP7 to customers and then tell them to wait a year+ for a decent update while you're banging out iOS apps for iPhone/iTouch users...
Probably would have been better for them to just release a better Zune HD and put all of their mobile support behind iOS, IMO. Could have saved their users money, time, and frustration, and allowed them to get work down faster and better.
well copy/paste, multitasking are both coming...C/P in early march and multi-tasking sometime this year...so it's a start. Plus better skydrive integration for all office docs...
CSMR said:
In windows mobile we had:
-file system access and USB mass storage (since 2000)
-directly installable apps
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The above will never happen on WP7, real business users don't need file system access or USB mass storage support since they use the cloud - either in a hosted capacity or their own private setup. Either way, they always have access to their documents.
Directly installable apps is not something they need either as they will roll out a set package of apps - just look at corporate laptops today, everything comes preinstalled from the IT dept. Now, sure, if you are talking about business apps for "personal" phones for their employees the IT dept rollout will not work, but MS has said they are working on private marketplace support here - sort of like how you get the Samsung or T-Mobile marketplace categories today.
CSMR said:
-copy and paste
-multitasking
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
These are coming thruout the year, but TBH multitasking isn't something used by most WinMo enterprise users. Sure, some do use it for GPS tracking in the background but the vast majority of said users have these devices as a one-trick pony. Take UPS for example, they use them to scan packages, collect signatures and track drivers - that's it. None of which are performed simultaneously.
CSMR said:
-VPN support (since 2002)
-SIP VOIP (since 2007)
-almost full support for Exchange.
-business-class security features
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do agree with most of these though. Not sure what you mean by business-class security features, but other than that they do need to roll out VPN and enhanced Exchange support. VoIP I'm not so sure about, most business users (even fairly small ones) I've been in contact with already have great plans with their telcos and will route calls thru their local/private exchange.
Omega Ra said:
well copy/paste, multitasking are both coming...C/P in early march and multi-tasking sometime this year...so it's a start. Plus better skydrive integration for all office docs...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why do people keep repeating this 10x in every thread, as if we do NOT know what's coming?
We know it's coming. Why is something like that coming, instead of having been launched to begin with. From what I've seen WP7 was in development for like 2 years, considering they did use CE as a base, it seems a bit retarded that stuff like this had to be added in and they are delivering better apps for iOS than WP7 while WP7 customers stand there with blank faces wondering why they have to wait a year to get iOS features when iOS is getting features they want in weeks/months.
emigrating said:
The above will never happen on WP7, real business users don't need file system access or USB mass storage support since they use the cloud - either in a hosted capacity or their own private setup. Either way, they always have access to their documents.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Cloud arguments don't get rid of arguments for common file stores. There are files on the cloud and on local storage. Either way, the same file should be accessible by more than one program. That means that the file is "common", not "isolated".
Isolated storage is a terrible restriction, whether it is local or in the cloud. So terrible that Microsoft had to make limited exemptions for particular sorts of content with special apis to be accessed by more than one program (e.g. photos).
Look you can have office workers who just edit spreadsheets and word documents, maybe this is fine for them. But for serious users of technology this is unacceptable. Just think of the history. You had slide rules and other specific calculating devices devices. Then Charles Babbage develops a mechanical computer which is actually Turing complete, then Turing proves that there is this type of computer that can do anything that is computable, then people built these things, and now we are back with - as long as a device can do x,y,z popular tasks we are OK. End rant.
Directly installable apps... MS has said they are working on private marketplace support here - sort of like how you get the Samsung or T-Mobile marketplace categories today.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
OK let me continue the rant a little. Alan Turing did not envisage a system where for an algorithm to succeed it has to first pass the approval of human censors. It takes the undecidability problem a little too far, don't you think?
Anyway, any improvement is good but what is the timeframe? At some point this will happen, unless the public overtures to homebrew hackers were a mistake.
VoIP I'm not so sure about, most business users (even fairly small ones) I've been in contact with already have great plans with their telcos and will route calls thru their local/private exchange.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can work your way around it but nothing is better than a native solution.
Anyway, yes this stuff is important to businesses, some more than others, but the rest are important to power users, anyone who wants to use the device as more than a feature phone, who is not Mr. Average and at some point may want to do something that Mr. Average does not do. Mr. Average may have money on average, and power in democracies, but people who are not Mr. Average are also important, in fact far more so for the world.
I agree with all your points.
It's fine not to have the features at launch but they must add them quickly. The argument that some like to use that WP7 is new & to just be patient is wearing thin. WP7 is competing with the IPhone & Android of today not of yesterday, so why should customers bother waiting too long for features already available on competing products? The UI is great but not spectacularly better IMO.
I want WP7 to succeed but the clock is ticking & MS only has a limited amount of time to make it a hit.
N8ter said:
The OP has a good point, and people are just ragging him without even thinking about it.
The rate of progress is slow. Look at the interview with the product manager. Guy should be fired, since he obviously failed in some aspect of his job in handling WP7 development and updates.
They are developing a phone for consumers, and decided to not release a 1st party WLM client, for example.
2 Months later, after they launch WP7, Microsoft releases a 1st party WLM client for iOS, then they releases OneNote for iOS.
Not only is it a slow rate of progress, but they are constantly *****-slapping their own customers. Why get a WP7 device over an Apple iPhone or an Android Phone + iTouch with Wireless Tethering, if Microsoft will give more attention to iOS than WP7. iOS has gotten more "updates" from the Windows Live team than WP7 since WP7 was launched. I wouldn't be surprised to see a Zune app for Mac and a Zune Pass Quasi-App for iOS in a few months, along with XBox Live goodies... At the moment it doesn't seem like they have a clue what direction they want to move in, or what market they want to target to be honest...
It seems disingenuous to sell WP7 to customers and then tell them to wait a year+ for a decent update while you're banging out iOS apps for iPhone/iTouch users...
Probably would have been better for them to just release a better Zune HD and put all of their mobile support behind iOS, IMO. Could have saved their users money, time, and frustration, and allowed them to get work down faster and better.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
N8ter said:
Why do people keep repeating this 10x in every thread, as if we do NOT know what's coming?
We know it's coming. Why is something like that coming, instead of having been launched to begin with. From what I've seen WP7 was in development for like 2 years, considering they did use CE as a base, it seems a bit retarded that stuff like this had to be added in and they are delivering better apps for iOS than WP7 while WP7 customers stand there with blank faces wondering why they have to wait a year to get iOS features when iOS is getting features they want in weeks/months.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
and why do you have to keep repeating post after post that wp7 should have included c/p , this and that blah blah blah? I know why you want c/p so that you dont have to right the same thing over and over again lols.....
leowp7 said:
and why do you have to keep repeating post after post that wp7 should have included c/p , this and that blah blah blah? I know why you want c/p so that you dont have to right the same thing over and over again lols.....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
An you still have nothing of value to add to the discussion. Life must hate you.
Here's a razor. You know what to do with it
CSMR said:
Cloud arguments don't get rid of arguments for common file stores. There are files on the cloud and on local storage. Either way, the same file should be accessible by more than one program. That means that the file is "common", not "isolated".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed - but that's a whole different can of worms. What I was commenting on was getting content onto your phone in the first place. I fully agree there should be a shared store accessible by any installed application.
CSMR said:
You can work your way around it but nothing is better than a native solution.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again, I agree. But in my experience businesses (at least here) have free connectivity between their mobile devices and their offices. More and more these days there are no landlines available at all, everyone uses mobile which is routed thru a local (ie. corporate) switch.
CSMR said:
Anyway, yes this stuff is important to businesses, some more than others, but the rest are important to power users, anyone who wants to use the device as more than a feature phone, who is not Mr. Average and at some point may want to do something that Mr. Average does not do. Mr. Average may have money on average, and power in democracies, but people who are not Mr. Average are also important, in fact far more so for the world.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is where we don't agree
Power-users - or early-adopters; they are generally the same people - are not generating [direct] revenue and as such their usage patterns are not of great importance initially. What they do do is drive demand for these features down to an average level, so at some point it will become mainstream, but not today.
N8ter said:
An you still have nothing of value to add to the discussion. Life must hate you.
Here's a razor. You know what to do with it
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thats so uncalled for.....
leowp7 said:
thats so uncalled for.....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I deal with "uncalled for" things thrown at me on this forum all the time. I'm not crying about it. I'd edit it out, but since you quoted it instead of PMing me it's not worth it.
Report it to a moderator. I'll eat my infraction if they feel they need to issue one. /shruggery/
CSMR said:
The slowness of WP continues to disappoint.
In windows mobile we had:
-file system access and USB mass storage (since 2000)
-VPN support (since 2002)
-SIP VOIP (since 2007)
-almost full support for Exchange.
-copy and paste
-multitasking
-directly installable apps
-business-class security features
In 2010 WP7 was released without these features. In 2011 we will have copy and paste and multitasking. This is a diabolically slow rate of progress. Instead, we have play features like twitter support, ability to wave the phone in front of a TV, great.
Businesses are Microsoft's most important and successful market. When will WP support features for businesses and serious users? 2012? 2013?
The slow rate of progress was cemented in Ballmer's speech today. No wonder Nokia's shares continued to fall. Microsoft could have timed basic feature-completeness to coincide with Nokia's entry. Instead, when their phones come out in late 2011, WP7 will still be a toy OS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have not read the following posts so forgive me if this point has been made but this sort of thread gripes me so so bad.
WINDOWS PHONE IS NOT, I REPEAT NOT! WINDOWS MOBILE
It is aimed at general consumers more than business much like the iphone. Windows Mobile will have a new version out some point this year as it is not windows phone and is still being developed.
Please for gods sake keep this whole delusion that WP7 is anything to do with WM6.5 out of your heads.
lumpaywk said:
I have not read the following posts so forgive me if this point has been made but this sort of thread gripes me so so bad.
WINDOWS PHONE IS NOT, I REPEAT NOT! WINDOWS MOBILE
It is aimed at general consumers more than business much like the iphone. Windows Mobile will have a new version out some point this year as it is not windows phone and is still being developed.
Please for gods sake keep this whole delusion that WP7 is anything to do with WM6.5 out of your heads.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's no delusion that 6.5 is far superior to WP7, as of now.
amtrakcn said:
Windows Mobile is most functional moile OS of all time, even Android cannot beat WM on functionality. However, the sales proved that WM is not welcomed by majority of the market. This is reasonnable.
You are using a cell phone. How many calls do you make everyday? Then how many C&Ps?
Just refining WM might not be good enough to save MS on phones.
“True multitasking” drains battery. And whatever perfection the system itself can reach, its stablity cannot survive badly written apps and unlimited modification.
Also there was a problem for WM app ecosystem. Kind like what we are seeing on Android now, maybe worse...
At least there is Office on WP... Also remote lock?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
what functionality are you refering to that every other phone OS hasn't had for 2plus years ?
I make/receive on average 1 phone call a day, while I copy/paste at least 20 times a day.
N8ter said:
I deal with "uncalled for" things thrown at me on this forum all the time. I'm not crying about it. I'd edit it out, but since you quoted it instead of PMing me it's not worth it.
Report it to a moderator. I'll eat my infraction if they feel they need to issue one. /shruggery/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1. im not crying about anything, just stating the obvious
2. I feel anyone should be allowed to say what they think, so are you, but why the need for the bully factor?