Related
Sorry this is so long but I feel strongly about this.
I too have few posts as anyone can see. I joined in Sep '06 but have been an avid reader of this forum since my company bought me a Siemens SX66 several years ago.
While I have noticed a marked decline in the quality of posts on this site, I have also seen an amazing increase in the quality of products the senior people have put out.
I think this fact coupled with the rising popularity of Windows Mobile and HTC products is inviting more and more people who would be otherwise too scared to try flashing their expensive gear to feel comfortable enough to give it a go.
Personally, I consider this a hobbyist site and as such, while the senior people will only gain experience and become more adept at their hobby, the noobs will continue to be noobs with the same noob questions, just more of them.
If this site is ever to work as an open hobbyist site, then I think it behooves everyone to step back and take a breath and think about what that goal will require.
1) Seniors - as your skills improve, and you work in this hobby more and more, you will inevitably see more and more of the same questions. Have mercy on the noobs. Truly some are lazy leechers others are perhaps "just getting their feet wet." Everyone has to start somewhere and sometimes that "start" begins with what you may think is a dumb question but is considered valid to the user asking it.
2) Noobs - think about your questions before you ask them. Realize that you are getting the benefits of senior people in this hobby and treat them accordingly. They are doing more to give you free "customer service" than the companies that you gave your money to in the first place.
3) Everyone - I see this problem as having many smaller pieces that perhaps can be improved to help create a better environment.
a) The built-in vBulletin search function sucks arse. Someone posted how to search this site using Google. Perhaps removing the built-in search would get people more familiar with a better search tool and perhaps return more relevant entries.
b) Pay to play - If you are a serious hobbyist then paying a subscription fee to gain access to the hard work others have done should be worth it. You can't or won't pay then you are on your own.
c) Private or Tiered forum for more Senior folks. Entry could be by application/invite allowing a senior moderator to evaluate the applicants quality of participation first. This would also force noobs to start contributing to the group versus just leeching.
Lastly, I have seens several posts where it is obvious that English is not their first or even learned language. I have read the wiki for my device and I have had to read parts several times to understand them. I think for many to whom the language might be a barrier to participation a little extra patience should be granted.
This is an absolutely awesome forum. I have been a benefactor of the work others have done and have several devices that are much more usable, enjoyable and longer lived because of this site. It would be a shame for this forum to crumble under the weight of the hostility that has been present the last few months.
Please, let's all find a way to keep this site useful, friendly and enjoyable for all of its participants.
Some good points but I personally don't have any problems with the search as you have got the options to search the forums, narrowing down your options, and the search this thread to really go deeper.
What I have seen on other forums is - like you say in point c - a lockdown of specific groups until you've got a certain number of posts/been around for a while/been approved so that it can be established that you're familiar with the forum and don't just post crap/leech stuff. Maybe something like that could be employed.
But let's face it, the quality of releases lately has brought far more attention to this forum rather than those who would come here because they knew what they were doing.
Just my thoughts.
If people are offended by Senior members when they ask a stupid question, then they can go somewhere else. HoFo is a great place for beginners. And since ROM flashing isn't a task fot for a beginner, there is no place here for those members.
Sure, I've asked stupid questions, been confused, etc., but I normally seek out a solution. Many n00bs (as they're commonly called) just ask without searching - and that's often obvious to those who are willing to read a 55-page thread.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the ROM kitchen. Period.
I agree with most of what you say.
I have been on this forum for more than 4 years now and it's been the best forum I have ever used to play around with my "toys".
Noobs are noobs and I even ask silly questions sometimes but I think that this site should remain the same.... It's a gold mine for every person like me wanting to play around and get the best out of his toy.
Long life to this forum
I've been on so many forums for so long and all of the ones that are any good have these very same issues. I recently read a post on a forum of another open source project that I absolutely love (Handbrake) and I think the post you can find here by one of their chief developers has some correlation to this current situation.
If you're too lazy to mosie over to the link...the gist of the post is that open source projects are just that. They are open sourced. That doesn't mean one has carte blanche to ask for help on this or that, to ask for this feature or that feature, to whine and complain, to moan and groan, or to trash somebody's work when it doesn't work like you want it to. It means that a usually small but dedicated group of individuals got together and tried to find a solution to a problem that they had. In the case of this post...it's about open source software...but I think you could say the same thing about ROM cooking here. There is enough information here that if you see or try something that doesn't work for you...try to fix it yourself (or as many have stated...search and see if it's already been fixed by someone). But in the end...I don't think you'll ever stamp out noob crap entirely. Think about it...just walk down the street or turn on your television or flip on your radio...how many idiots do you see or hear? Trust me...we are far outnumbered... But maybe...with a little help...we can at least edumacate em a little bit.
richy240 said:
If people are offended by Senior members when they ask a stupid question, then they can go somewhere else. HoFo is a great place for beginners. And since ROM flashing isn't a task fot for a beginner, there is no place here for those members.
Sure, I've asked stupid questions, been confused, etc., but I normally seek out a solution. Many n00bs (as they're commonly called) just ask without searching - and that's often obvious to those who are willing to read a 55-page thread.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the ROM kitchen. Period.
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Totally agree on that. Root of the problem seems to be low propensity to read given by large amounts of useless threads/posts, which makes it harder to search as well. By ignoring the reading/searching phase there is even more clutter being made.
The procedure how to get the info you need:
READ > SEARCH > THINK > POST
Sequence is important in that case!
Same applies to posts made entirely in language other than English > these are useless for vast majority of readers, please consider sending a PM when talking to your nationals.
'nuff said. Long live the XDA-Dev!
I think most of the gripes are about pointless posts eg, "whoohoo!", "cool", "downloading now" that just take up space and make getting to the valuable posts more difficult. Then there are the noob questions that are simple to answer but extremely annoying when repeating many many times. I am a noob to this forum and this phone but not about computers and porgramming. I have also made a donation to jasjamming and wish him the best. My proposal to end some of the madness is to seperate out the type of posts, which seem to be threefold 1. appreciation/useless banter 2. noob questions/simple questions 3. decent and high quality posts that make xda dev a great forum. So one thread about technical stuff that will contain good and useful info and another being the noob questions useless banter. Maybe split the noob questions and appreciation thread and forget about one or the other. This will make the mods life a lot easier and make reading the forum a lot more palatable and organise the threads in a meaningful way. Again sorry to see jasjamming go so soon after joining this forum. Hope he comes back at some stage.
KarhU said:
Totally agree on that. Root of the problem seems to be low propensity to read given by large amounts of useless threads/posts, which makes it harder to search as well. By ignoring the reading/searching phase there is even more clutter being made.
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Yeah. The problem is compounding itself. I think we should continue to offend the n00bs that way they go away and quit asking stupid questions.
Perhaps creating/moving this and other hardcore forums to private/access controlled area would help.
HoFo is part of the trouble but so is Google and search bots which read public forums. That brings a lot of new readers/noobs.
I've been on sites that have both public and private fora, and the Google/non approved members can't get at the private side which helps a lot.
Just so long as I'm a member of the private side.
Personally i think this forum would work better if there were more forums, say inside the hermes mobile 6 one there was one for each rom. Then if users were encouraged to post new topics for different faults the stupid pointless topics could just be ignored and end up pages back or even deleted while the usefull topics would stay near the top with only relavent content inside.
Anyway thats not for me to decide and just to note i hardly ever feel the need to post cos i've always found a fix for my problems by reading. It might take a few mins longer to find an answer than to start a post but it saves you looking stupid.
I fully support the idea of a subscription to the forums. I'm a member of another subscription-based forum, and it leads to more productive posts and queries, better quality of member base, and an intelligent quorum. That site is $9.95 for a lifetime membership, less a ban of course -- and I find that more than fair.
I don't post much either, I just soak up knowledge here. I try not to ask questions unless absolutely necessary, and instead reap the benefits from the great minds at work..
I love the forum and I think we all agree on this point. I am a moderator on several other PDA related sites. I know first hand how hard it can be to try and get the new folks to use the search function and read The Bold Print but I have found with my experience that using post counts to advance members to hidden forums only invites spam and useless posts. I can also say that wading through 80 sum pages of "thank you's" and "questions that where answered in the first post but I just looked for the link to download and didn't read" posts, is long and quite aggravating. Also trying to use the search function for things like finding a fix to an MMS problem is near to imposable. What I have seen here recently that I like is when something is released like a new WM6 build, there could be 2 treads started one for real questions (Advanced) and issues and one for the new folks to ask there new folk questions (Beginners). Not restricting access to the "Advance" tread, just the ability to post. I don't mind helping the new folks a little because I was new once. I can also say that I read information on this site for 4 days before I attempted to flash a new rom to my device. ( was scared to death ) and some of the questions the new folks asked, I also wanted the answer too. Lots of times some senior member would help them with a link or advice and this helped me also. I think if anything you should have to be a member here for say 3 or 4 days before you are allowed to post. Then maybe a week or two before you could post in the "Advanced" threads. This would hopefully send more new folks eager to find the answers to there questions, into the forums using the search and reading the comment of others a little more closely.
Just my thoughts
JD
I am new here and have refrained from posting until now. I have been using jj's WM VI 2.0 for a couple of days now (best so far) and must say that I find what is going on here to be quite annoying. My reason for being annoyed is because I have had my 8525 for several months now and have recently become quite bored with it, awaiting the release of new devices so I could have a new toy. Well jasjamming changed that with a couple rom updates.
All I am saying is for all of the noobs here including myself, "beggars cant be choosers" If the people that generously make these rom updates and advice available want us to do something in order to make this equitable for them, then we need to do as they wish without question. What is so difficult about this? Especially since it really doesn't seem like there asking much in return.
Just think about it, from what I see we all eagerly await each and every new release and now people are upset like me because we like having access to these updates and now we don't. I just think it is wasteful to disrupt such a wonderful arrangement.
Just my .02 but I really enjoy this site and would hate to see it change.
On a side note... I really enjoy this site so for all parties involved in creating/ maintaining this sight, many thanks!
Thanks button?
I will now throw my 2 cents in as well. I too have not posted much, but have managed to upgrade the ROM on my Hermes a few times without having to seek "professional help". I think we all appreciate the effrorts of the few that provide the rewards for the many. I used to be a SuperMod on a SonyEricsson modding site (before I found the Windows Mobile joy).
I have seen a "Thanks Button" used quite effectively - I think it is in the newer releases of vBulletin. It cuts a lot of the crap. Also, I would support a "no post for 10 days" and "read only, except by invitation" threads.
If you can express gratitude simply, have to read and learn for 10 days (and you KNOW they won't wait to try the flash) and get to read what the Seniors and Mods are saying and download the fruits of their labors, but cannot interfere, I think that would raise the quality of the experience for everyone. Sorry I went so long - I love XDA and want to see it continue to dominate.
PS: It is funny to see someone with the nick "poopmongrel" lamenting the low quality of the forum participants - ;-) That isn't meant to be mean, just funny!
richy240 said:
Yeah. The problem is compounding itself. I think we should continue to offend the n00bs that way they go away and quit asking stupid questions.
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Does that really work? Or do the n00bs just argue back? It seems recently they will just start arguing that "I did search, you *expletive*" or something like that.
If there were a way to rate individual posts like Digg and Slashdot, then you could set a ratings threshold (like view all rated > -1) and not even see the n00b posts that other people flagged unless you specifically click to expand the hidden post.
chenga said:
Does that really work? Or do the n00bs just argue back? It seems recently they will just start arguing that "I did search, you *expletive*" or something like that.
If there were a way to rate individual posts like Digg and Slashdot, then you could set a ratings threshold (like view all rated > -1) and not even see the n00b posts that other people flagged unless you specifically click to expand the hidden post.
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I don't know... Probably not. I was really just talking out of my ass. But when someone answers like that, they obviously shouldn't expect an accurate answer. If someone said that to me after answering a question, I wouldn't give them the time of day.
Wasn't everybody a n00b at one time?
It would be a shame to 'close the forum down' to noobs. There's a first for everything. And -yes!- noobs can ask stupid questions, but you could just ignore them. I've read some good suggestions reading the threads complaining about the newbies on this forum. ("thank you button", "noob area" and "a timeslot between downloading/registering" eg.)
Without this forum I'm pretty sure my Hermes would still run on WM5 since there's no real alternative to this forum. The senior members and chefs provide information (at least I) could not find anywhere else. Like many junior members (I guess) I spend the most time reading and not posting. Reading and learning. So getting 'senior' by just posting will not improve the forum quality.
To bad some (a) chef(s) are just so fed up they don't share their work anymore, but I can understand. People should be more gratefull for their hard work. Especially if you do not have the skills to cook a rom yourself!
I think the problem is more than just asking questions, even basic ones. It is the attitude of some users who seem to expect the contributors of the ROMs to support them. As a software developer myself, I've experienced many such types who think that just because they downloaded your software for free, they are entitled to your support. I believe it is this sort of "stupidity" and arrogance that really gets the goat of those who work hard to contribute something.
In this case, the fault isn't merely one of tolerance, it is one of attitude. If a guy comes in and gets free stuff from you, and then turns back and demand you fix their machine, while bad-mouthing you - surely you can see how this will make the whole enterprise un-worthwhile for the contributor. Not only are they not getting any tangible remuneration for their work, they are now having to put up with such arrogance. Now, who in their right mind would want to continue contributing in a community that is unappreciative (though arguably there will always be those who are appreciative).
The key then is to keep the unappreciative out until they learn some respect and appreciation. When they learn that what they're getting is not a right but a privilege, out of the goodwill of the contributors. If they are not happy, they can go elsewhere and not use the product. If they're sincere, then they should make the effort to learn. Regardless of the complaints of how hard it is to use the search function (how hard can it be??). In this case the onus is NOT on the contributors but on the end-user.
I see this kind of scenario happening:-
1. Newbie hears about WM6 and thinks its so cool.
2. Pesters friend for link and ends up here.
3. Get excited at the level of activity and prospect of getting something for free.
4. Get frustrated because they don't know where to start.
5. Post basic questions about which is the best ROM etc.
6. Decides to go with the "best" ROM.
7. Bricks the machine or finds a bug or loses some features.
8. Get frustrated and angry and vents at the ROM chefs (or Olipro.
9. Tries to read site for the first time but too lazy to work through the posts (it does take time but that is expected.)
10. Pester others to help them unbrick their machine.
11. Unbricks machine and starts again with another ROM variant.
12. Cycle repeats itself.
I'm not saying that all newbies are like this. Many lurkers actually read through all the related posts. The problem we're facing has to do with those who want the benefits without having to spend the time reading and researching and learning some general knowledge about the ROM flashing process. To make things worse, these same types usually have attitudes of self-righteous indignation which makes them a pain to tolerate. This is the kind of person you want to keep out of the community. IMO.
Daniel
swtaltima said:
I am new here and have refrained from posting until now. I have been using jj's WM VI 2.0 for a couple of days now (best so far) and must say that I find what is going on here to be quite annoying. My reason for being annoyed is because I have had my 8525 for several months now and have recently become quite bored with it, awaiting the release of new devices so I could have a new toy. Well jasjamming changed that with a couple rom updates.
All I am saying is for all of the noobs here including myself, "beggars cant be choosers" If the people that generously make these rom updates and advice available want us to do something in order to make this equitable for them, then we need to do as they wish without question. What is so difficult about this? Especially since it really doesn't seem like there asking much in return.
Just think about it, from what I see we all eagerly await each and every new release and now people are upset like me because we like having access to these updates and now we don't. I just think it is wasteful to disrupt such a wonderful arrangement.
Just my .02 but I really enjoy this site and would hate to see it change.
On a side note... I really enjoy this site so for all parties involved in creating/ maintaining this sight, many thanks!
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I have to agree here. What ticks me off is the fact that alot of people here come in, flash a ROM without reading or researching then DEMAND a solution...not once...not twice...but sometimes three and four times in a short time span.
I have no right to DEMAND someone to fix something that either (1) I caused; (2) I didn't read enough to see that it was a known issue and flashed anyway; (3) a known issue with an open source software on a DEVELOPER's sight with I am NOT a developer.
What I see the issue to be is ingratitude, sense of entitlement and tender emotions. If you're feelings are going to get hurt then you shouldn't post. The developers here don't owe anybody here a thing. Plain and simple.
Politically correct? No. Do I care? No.
Jim
I Love Xda-developers.com!
Spread The Peace!
edit: added poll
i believe that it would be a really great idea if one new market place subforum is added. this would be dedicated to finding genuinly great deals on phones or services that people normally look for here. there are just too many
a friend was about to pay an absurd $950 (locally)for an xperia 2 weeks ago and i managed to save him more than $250 based on a post (that was actully misplaced)
what do you guys think? please voice your opinion. if there is a lot of interest and if our request is reasonable. im sure the administrators wont ignore it
Some threads already discussing this:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=469619&highlight=Selling
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=375362&highlight=Selling
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=336538&highlight=Selling
XDA-Developers isn't a market place and doesn't want to be IMO, we are a development forum. If a Marketplace was setup we would start attracting power sellers and scammers - there's no denying it, you cannot trust anyone on the internet . This would mean xda-developers would then have a responsibilty over what was sold on it's site.
Buying and selling of devices on this forum has caused problems before - a senior member on this forum scammed a number of users by selling devices that didn't exist.
Known users selling a second hand device after an upgrade is allowed (for the moment).
Thanks
Dave
i think the $700 he paid is too much. you can get it for even less from UK shops like expansys or handec or ebay even with shipping put into consideration.
the idea has merit but dave is also making a lot of sense .
mabe we can reach middle ground by creating a new "deals" subforum for all devices. a single subforum should not be that hard to moderatea slickdeals.net type forum is extreemly valuable to far too many people espeically new-comers.
oh and btw its now possible to buy decent wm devices for as litte as $160. pda+keyboard+3.5G+520mhz+wifi http://www.expansys.ae/p.aspx?i=147071
are you sure expansys.ae is not a scam site. a similar phone like this would cost about 2-3 times as much
i just added a poll in hope that this will give the admins a better idea what people want.
i just find it a bit unbalnced that there are so many uneeded forums (like accssories subforum for EACH phone that was ever created while something as usuful as this does not get a forum based on the ASSUMPTION that it will be abused.
how about they create a forum for a test period and if it proves to be problamatic the admins remove it.
As posted before
Already are threads regarding this
what i am asking for is a toned down vesion of what what asked before
-im not asking a per device forum.
-not asking forum wtb/wts forum.
im just asking for a single test forum that will help people find good deals on wm all smartphones. the moderators are already handling over 50 subforums. is one extra really a big deal??!!
now if only i could get more people to vote too see how other people feel about this
THE GRIZZ said:
i just find it a bit unbalnced that there are so many uneeded forums (like accssories subforum for EACH phone that was ever created while something as usuful as this does not get a forum based on the ASSUMPTION that it will be abused.
how about they create a forum for a test period and if it proves to be problamatic the admins remove it.
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To be fair, if you look at who it is that's saying "it's been talked about before, and we think that the idea is problematic and we don't really want it to become a marketplace" you might notice one significant fact that i believe you are overlooking. That fact is that we're talking about some of the more significant, long-term contributors to the forum, and people who have actually talked to the site admin before and know the owner's/admin's feelings about the matter. The issue isn't that we can't handle one more sub-forum, or even 10 more for that matter, but rather what that sub-forum will contain. You have not even been a member one month, and I in no means intend to put you down, but believe me when i say that if you spend the next year learning and contributing here on the forum, you will have a much different perspective than you do now.
There are already marketplace forums in existence but it does not belong here. Personally, I do not agree with people creating threads selling their devices on here. Many of us remember the Cuboosh scams that took place a short while ago and many considered him a valued member to this community prior to his shady activities.
In addition, I am undecided whether I agree with people linking their eBay listing here. If you want to promote more attraction to your listing do it elsewhere.
Below is a handy website that does have marketplace deals for many items. If you want to add deals on win-mo devices to their forums feel free too.
http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/13-bargain-websites-that-are-cheaper-than-ebay/
Similar Story
A friend of mine is a mod on a site that has fairly heavy trading of sports cards and other collectibles. Admittedly that site is largely focused on that activity, or at least it has become a major focus over time (I'm not a member and have no part in it, so I admit, I know little of it's history).
He's told me a number of times about complications with scammers, and even repeat offenders who return even after being banned numerous times, which has even forced the site to have more moderators to manage scammers than mods for thread problems. To my knowledge (and logic), the site only supports people trading within the United States, which obviously has stricter laws and enforcement on mail scams than there are for international situations. Despite all of their efforts, they still have people trying to rip off others all the time. Given the nature of how easy it is to set up a website that even looks legit, plus crossing international lines in many cases, this site would be inviting the worst kind of activity where people would be spending large amounts on electronics that will never be delivered.
There's already a pretty good standard of people searching around and asking the forum if others have dealt with a specific site/seller before....which seems to usually just get more people suggesting expansys (why oh why can't there be a decent seller in the US?)
270 views and only 12 votes.im quite surprised with the level of interest of this idea.this does not look like it will fly here
are there any other good sites that provide for what im asking?
I've only been a member a couple of weeks (lurked previously) but like mentioned above, I see this forum as a development/support tool, not a marketplace. It's a place people come to learn about a device they've already got, or are getting. I undertand the reasoning behind your suggestion, but there are many, many other sources of purchase information/price comparison sites on the internet. I spent weeks researching prices before deciding on how to buy my Touch HD and to be honest, on that particular point, this site didn't really enter into it. It does now, obviously.
There are many sites in the UK that compare mobile phone prices, whether they be handset only, pay as you go, or monthly contract. I'm surprised there aren't similar sites elsewhere in the world.
I cannot vouch for any of these sites, use at your own risk, etc, etc, but I used them during my search for the best package:
http://www.mobiles.co.uk/
http://www.moneysupermarket.com/MobilePhones/default.aspx
http://www.mobile-phones.co.uk/
http://www.dialaphone.co.uk/compare_phones.html
THE GRIZZ said:
.this does not look like it will fly here
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it flew check the new section
No one is allowed to say XDA Developers is resistant to change ever again.
JimmyMcGee said:
No one is allowed to say XDA Developers is resistant to change ever again.
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Can I have an Omnia forum then, please
Dave
DaveShaw said:
Can I have an Omnia forum then, please
Dave
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I reject your change and substitute my own!
The Marketplace section of XDA has been only open for a short time. There are currently 8 potential users in our community who have been ripped off and may not be capable of receiving their payments back and/or punishing the people that scammed them. There also exist a number of buyers that await their devices to be received but the sellers have not contacted them.
There are several benefits of selling on XDA and there are many drawbacks. Please let me remind you that this is a developers (or those interested in the processes, aka users like me) forum. Please take the time to reflect the benefits and the drawbacks and vote.
I know the poll results will lean towards keeping the Marketplace open because those who visit this section on a regular would want to keep using it as a resource. Yet there are many on this site that still do not have any idea that this marketplace exist, simply because they bookmark their device's section.
Please vote after reading the Fraud Thread,Thank You.
If you have new guidelines that will help deter criminals from scamming our members please post. Please note, your suggestions may be criticized.
My vote to third option. I dont believe in throwing the baby with the bath water. Everything faces problem in the beginning, so is this marketplace. Let's make it a better place.
Just because the Marketplace isn't open doesn't mean XDA won't be used for transactions between users. With the Marketplace, the transactions are more public and I bet that being open and public actually cuts down on scams.
|Jason8| said:
Just because the Marketplace isn't open doesn't mean XDA won't be used for transactions between users. With the Marketplace, the transactions are more public and I bet that being open and public actually cuts down on scams.
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I completely agree with your opinion. What do you think about banning device sale transactions altogether?
Just like XDA bans warez but obviously users can PM each other regarding warez.
I would think that there is a way to keep the market section open, yet make it safer. I don't think it is XDA's responsibility to make sure every transaction is 100% safe, not even eBay can do that. I don't even think it is responsible to go above and beyond "buyer/seller beware". But I know this communitty and to simply leave it at "stock" isn't an option.
It has proven true that it is hard to identify a good scammer. Post counts, length of membership, and so forth have all proven indicators of trustworthiness, but not a guarantee. And while a guarantee surely isn't possible in reality, I know it is always the goal of those in this communitty to get it right and as close to perfect as possible.
I am currently trying to sell a couple phones, and half my worry is that people have enough trust and faith in me to feel comfortable buying from me. The other half is that I find a legit buyer. I can't even image being the actual buyer!
I feel that stricter guidelines and oversight will go a long way, although likely more time consuming as well. Perhaps making it so new listings have to get approved? And setting criteria for approval asking for photographic proof that the item exists? As well, maybe create an XDA paypal account, where the buyer pays XDA, and upon shipping confirmation/ receipt confirmation the funds are then transfered to the seller? This would put a lot of liability on XDA, which might not be plausable.
Ultimately, buyer and seller beware is and always will be the most important rule.
may555 said:
Although opening the market place means that many problems exist,which is seller make slow response to buying,I may strengthen to monitor.Opening the market place may improve the dynamic of the forum.
If you want to savvy more information about mobile phone, please come to [scamlink]
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And you give a link to a Kirf phone site... shakes head... maybe we can also look into strengthening membership requirements/ process?
XDA can't take guarantee for anything that happens in marketplace, that is something ebay doesn't take inspite of such a heavy fee amount they charge. I feel xda is the best way to share things like pocket pc phones in like minded people to get the get value for both buyer & seller. It would be there no matter you have the marketplace or not. Marketplace has provided outlet to all such dealings.
We can ponder over how to make it more secure, but giving marketplace an existential threat is not I am in agreement with.
Marketplace open!!
As I said before,
All transactions between particulars on the WWW have some risk.
If you are not willing to take that risk please do not use marketplace and go and buy to a regular store!
You should be aware that if you want to buy cheap there is always a risk!
Let´s continue with marketplace!!
I noticed that some other sites require you to have a certain post count before posting/viewing the market place. This could cut the scammers out as it would require them to first be active in the community before being able to post.
Keep the market place.. I have used it for purchasing more than 1 phone, and lucky for me, my experiance here has been fantastic... I think people should pay for their transactions using a credit card... even with PayPal.. You can pay with credit card there.. That way if you are scammed and do no receive what you payed for, open up a dispute with both your credit card company as well as paypal.. evne if paypal can not "collect" anything, you credit card can cancel the transaction all together and take the money from paypal... (which will, in turn, make them want to look for the money a little harder, and even possibley bring up legal action againt the fraud monger!) In closing, KEEP THE MARKET PLACE...
I totally agree with 'Teej53214' and have voted for option 1.
I don't see why XDA should shoulder any responsibilty, nor have to police the marketplace,
since with all online dealing it is the buyers responsibility, not XDA's, to take adequate steps to protect himself.
as such, using a credit card is far the best way.
Yes, but at what point? A spammer will get a couple hundred posts in a few minutes, where as a legit member might not in a couple years.
As well, one of the most infamous scams thus far was carried out by a member with over 1000 posts, and 2 years of community involvement.
I noticed that some other sites require you to have a certain post count before posting/viewing the market place. This could cut the scammers out as it would require them to first be active in the community before being able to post.
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there already is a post count limit, i.e 30+ Posts, a seller less than post isent allowed to sell, and his thread is deleted
Ather said:
there already is a post count limit, i.e 30+ Posts, a seller less than post isent allowed to sell, and his thread is deleted
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Click to collapse
Can we not delete it? Someone may suggest a new guideline, which could be useful for both seller/buyer
I may be new here, but i feel i'll be around for a while. I feel the Market Place is a great idea for everyone, but some guildlines should be improved for everyoens experience.
I feel that the suggestions (option 3?) would to invoke a Post Count Requirement, but to add to this a review (to enter into the market place) must be made by an admin to make sure all posts to that post count are not spam to scam.
I also feel that the market place should incorporate some kind of market system. I know there's plugins for vBulletin that would allow such a thing, or better yet, force all users to mediate through another site for sales (eBay?). This way we'll know they're scammers...
ie if someone posts a acution on eBay for the sole purpose to sell an item (Buy it now at discolsed price in forum) and they're new user on eBay then more caution flags are thrown up... (Could use many other auction sites, etc).
Edit:
Maybe enforce some kind of physical conversation about products as well, phone call, etc?
Just my $.02
Keep it open.
I agree with what has been said. Use Paypal with a Credit card. Ivé have to open a dispute (not here) via Paypal and in the end I just contacted my credit card holder that refunded the payment.
Force users to have X many posts, visits or time from registering+posts before they can post in the marketplace.
skuliaxe said:
Keep it open.
I agree with what has been said. Use Paypal with a Credit card. Ivé have to open a dispute (not here) via Paypal and in the end I just contacted my credit card holder that refunded the payment.
Force users to have X many posts, visits or time from registering+posts before they can post in the marketplace.
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As Ather stated, there is a 30 post count limit. I do not see it documented anywhere maybe I skipped over it. Anyhow, I am positive there is a vbulletin plugin or add-on that restricts users under a set limit of posts to be capable of accessing the marketplace section.
redbandana said:
As Ather stated, there is a 30 post count limit. I do not see it documented anywhere maybe I skipped over it. Anyhow, I am positive there is a vbulletin plugin or add-on that restricts users under a set limit of posts to be capable of accessing the marketplace section.
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Ok, instead of making this thread about something that's not right let's take this wonderful opportunity to make it work.
We are open for suggestions
Who would think being a non-junior member OR being an XDA member for more then one year is appropriate/enough? Remember we are trying to scare the scammers off not everybody
Feel free to add to the list,
12
12aon said:
Ok, instead of making this thread about something that's not right let's take this wonderful opportunity to make it work.
We are open for suggestions
Who would think being a non-junior member OR being an XDA member for more then one year is appropriate/enough? Remember we are trying to scare the scammers off not everybody
Feel free to add to the list,
12
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would like to repeat my suggestions: I was once really involved at notebookreview and this is how we ran things
1. Require a set form for selling and buying. http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=243274
2. Require a picture with proof of ownership. (a photo of the item with a piece of paper containing the username and a dated newspaper)
3. Require feedback sources: Amazon, ebay, heatware.
4. Reference previous sales. (some sort of internal feedback system)
I think this can help make the Marketplace a bit safer to everyone involved.
12aon said:
Ok, instead of making this thread about something that's not right let's take this wonderful opportunity to make it work.
We are open for suggestions
Who would think being a non-junior member OR being an XDA member for more then one year is appropriate/enough? Remember we are trying to scare the scammers off not everybody
Feel free to add to the list,
12
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Both of those could be restrictive to real sellers, and not actually scare off scammers.
The spam guys will get a couple hundred posts really quickly. If you toss in a 1 year time limit type thing, then people that are active, like me, wouldn't even be able to sell because I haven't been a member for over a year.
I think we should ask sellers to post at least 5 pics, with their username and a newspaper pictured in one. As well, they need to send their contact info to the section mod. They also need to put a random word picked by the mod and PM to them on the piece of paper with their username on it. Only then would the post actually be made public.
As well, you can ask that they also have shown themself a member of this community, either through length of time here, post count, etc., but subject to the mods descretion.
Lately we have seen many users been scammed over here,, and with the lack of stickies its really difficult to know if the trader was bad or good for scams( had that recently where a member had scammed another member, and then one day he PM'd me asking to trade, but i was aware of it, but others may not be.) no ppl are getting banned who cheat on this forum. We need a mod who has traded before and just for this section, i dont think its hard to have one mod here who can delete threads, ban users who misuse the MP, make stickies on threads which have disputes, he can also act as a middle man if the User's chooses to. if you support me along this road, then please reply so we can have one
I agree. I've done a couple trades both on Hofo and Xda and I feel at times it is really nice to be able to trade, but often worried if the deal will go bad or not. It'd be nice to be able to know if the other person is reputible and if I was talking to another scammer.
It'd be nice to have some sort of system to prevent all the inconsistancy of having shady sellers.
Cheeze[iT] said:
I agree. I've done a couple trades both on Hofo and Xda and I feel at times it is really nice to be able to trade, but often worried if the deal will go bad or not. It'd be nice to be able to know if the other person is reputible and if I was talking to another scammer.
It'd be nice to have some sort of system to prevent all the inconsistancy of having shady sellers.
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yeah we need it, he could also verify the IP address is not of a scammer or near by.
I agree aswell although I've only done two trades here both of which wer successful there's always a bad apple out there ready to scam some unfortunate person and I personally think we should be doing everything we can to prevent it
Sent from my HTC HD2 using XDA App
it wont happen, there is no reason for a 3rd party, or a member of xda community to take on that role, and then possibly be at fault.
ie.
why complicate it more than it needs to be.
A feedback system may work, but never a 3rd party.
IMHO.
37 transactions and counting, xda only.
killster
it would be great ive wanted to offer on sum trades just have been kinda checking things out to see who is legit because we know everyone is not trust worthy
I think a Feedback system will be more helpful than moderators. Having feedback and mod will be even better.
Ya we need feedback, it will make checking someones transaction history very easy.
On my Suzuki Hayabusa forum you must have 50 posts to sell something - this is easily done with a simple vbulletin mod. The mod makes it possible for someone with less than 50 posts to browse and post in a thread in the "for sale" forums, but impossible to start a thread. I know you might think it's easy for someone to signup and post 50 times, but members notice that pretty damn quick - and we ban anyone who tries. We also have iTrader (another vbulletin mod) and once a sale is completed one of my Admins will post and ask the buyer and seller to post feedback.
The fact that people sell $6000+ motorcycles makes it a necessity to police and manage the "for sale" forums to the best of our ability for the protection of my members.
But people also sell $20 items, and we ban ANYONE who scams another member - this includes sponsors.
biggeorgef said:
But people also sell $20 items, and we ban ANYONE who scams another member - this includes sponsors.
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i deeply agree with this one , there should be zero tolerance , no posting suspension , no infractions , just insta-ban
pinstack.com has a "trust" meter, I've found it very useful at times. Plus this gives a better all-around feel for someone instead of just what's gone on in the marketplace.
http://forums.pinstack.com/trust.php
How about for now, we try and get people to use HeatWare? You can build a rep that's damn hard to fake.
There is always someone willing to take the role and help out.
Furthermore we have a "thanks" system, so I don't see it being too difficult to add some sort of "trust" system as previously mentioned. Though if there is an acceptable volunteer for thread mod, that would be a good idea too.
I also vouch for heatware. Great service and have used it on many forum trades sections.
or post names of scammers until mods start banning them.
TheAndroider
iDroidfan
Sent from my Dell Streak 7 using XDA Premium App
Plus guys get scammed when they do things in private. Keep as much as possible public and you are safer since everyone reads the posts and someone will know if one of the parties is bogus.
Sent from my Dell Streak 7 using XDA Premium App
i suggest rules(vBulletin mod) to be able to use marketplace:
1.over 50 posts
2. member for atleast 6months
in addition to:
1.transparency-every single deal should be public, pm's allowed for chatting etc, but all conditions, offers etc will be sellers&buyers thing to do in their thread(go public if you don't wanna get scammed)
2.bans for people (proved)scamming-hasn't been on xda 1 week from bogus deal, didn't respond buyer's PM's, sent fake/empty product etc
3.more mods assinged to this part of forum-"too good to be true" offers will be removed/reported in short period of time, preventing anyone to reply, and could be reactivated when seller responds to mod's pm and proves he's legit and has item for sale(especially first few sales)
4. whitelist of members who made over 20 deals succsessfully in longer period of time, separate items, with higher value(not sending 20 e.g. batteries at once).
killster said:
it wont happen, there is no reason for a 3rd party, or a member of xda community to take on that role, and then possibly be at fault.
ie.
why complicate it more than it needs to be.
A feedback system may work, but never a 3rd party.
IMHO.
37 transactions and counting, xda only.
killster
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Do those 37 count the ones you committed to and then backed out of killster? Seems mlee and i are not the only ones. Not the same as scamming but questionable nonetheless.
As per Marketplacer Rule #1:
The XDA-Developers.com Market Place, hereafter MP, is provided free to members with at least 8 posts at XDA-Developers.com. XDA-Developers.com, its moderators, administrators, owners and legal advisors do not warrant, guarantee or endorse any item offered for sale or trade on this forum.
SIMPLE ENGLISH: Trade at your own Risk.
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We have many Senior moderators who actively monitor the Marketplace forum We don't need anymore.
XDA will not get actively involved in a Marketplace dispute under normal circumstances. And we will never act as a "middle man". The above quoted rule underlines this.
Just to elaborate on what the_scotsman says above.
There are resource issues in providing checks on those trading in the Marketplace. We simply don't have these resources in terms of people to monitor trades, or systems to test or validate Users.
Equally, we do not have the resources to investigate when things go wrong. Inevitably in such cases, there will be conflicting accounts of what has happened and we have no way to prove or disprove the claims that are made by the parties in dispute. This is not an area with which we would ever suggest we can become involved.
Just occassionally we will disable the account of a member if there are repeated claims that purchased items have not been received, but Users should NEVER assume that we are checking sellers, because we are not.
We have no plans to bring in a checking system because with the resources we have, we simply wish to provide a basic noticeboard for sellers and a forum for threads where the transaction can be conducted in public. We do not Moderate the Marketplace except in a very cursory way, because it cannot be done reliably and more importantly it would give the FALSE impression that we were checking and validating the trades and sales in the Forum; in other words it might make buyers feel more secure in buying and yet the risk is ALL theirs.
It may be possible for us to implement some kind of User rating system whereby Users, not Moderators or Admin, can rate a Member according to how well or badly a sale/trade has gone. I understand this is being considered. Nevertheless, it would still be "buyer beware!".
If you are looking to buy and want guarantees and insurance if things go wrong, then our Marketplace Forum is not the place to buy! That said, if you are tempted to buy, then it may be possible for you to carry out some checks yourself, by looking at post history, previous sales if any and perhaps even a few checks using Google. You might also prefer to deal only with Members you have known over many months, even years!
Mike
XDA staff
why it is here forbidden to say
Click to expand...
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you've changed your rules
why it is here forbidden to say
Click to expand...
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quality of work must be measured
why it is here forbidden to say
Click to expand...
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only one place in this world where is the benchmarks app`s nothing
why it is here forbidden to say
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android is almost nothing but there is not choice
on the planet with only 3 OS for all devices
why it is here forbidden to say
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android is ms-dos in the java jacket
What happening with XDA?
do not speak against governments
do not speak against police
do not speak against people which thinking they are big
you are communist of not
communism is death, long live freedom but there is not freedom
you are still on the communism of not
but do not complain with yours communism
very sun I come ask to you to delete my membership
then you can still go with yours rules from age from stalin
mobiad said:
XDA staff
you've changed your rules
quality of work must be measured
only one place in this world where is the benchmarks app`s nothing
android is almost nothing but there is not choice
on the planet with only 3 OS for all devices
android is ms-dos in the java jacket
What happening with XDA?
do not speak against governments
do not speak against police
do not speak against people which thinking they are big
you are communist of not
communism is death, long live freedom but there is not freedom
you are still on the communism of not
but do not complain with yours communism
very sun I come ask to you to delete my membership
then you can still go with yours rules from age from stalin
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nope.. Your the one who want everything according to yourself. Just like stalin
If something here you think doesn't fit with you, then you start moaning and act like little child, feel like whole world is againts you.
Then start complaining here and there.. anywhere you want. Than blame whole xda, to be the most imcompeten forum.
World is large, and not just your neighbourhood area, but you're selfishly still insist to speak your own way, and doesn't want to try to communicate to others person in the right way.
If everything must do exactly like you wanna be, than be a god.. or as human, make your own forum, with your own rules.
vashta said:
Nope.. Your the one who want everything according to yourself. Just like stalin
If something here you think doesn't fit with you, then you start moaning and act like little child, feel like whole world is againts you.
Then start complaining here and there.. anywhere you want. Than blame whole xda, to be the most imcompeten forum.
World is large, and not just your neighbourhood area, but you're selfishly still insist to speak your own way, and doesn't want to try to communicate to others person in the right way.
If everything must do exactly like you wanna be, than be a god.. or as human, make your own forum, with your own rules.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not true!
- reason 1
It is not allowed sometimes share paid apps, but sometime is the allowed!
MIDOMI on XDA is the free
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=4366767
and here I don`t no
http://www.appbite.com/iphone-app-review-midomi/
If I ask for stock app Office pro little be edit then is that not allowed and post deleted!
- reason 2
It is sometime not allowed compare the ROM
You will be deleted
Other time is that allowed and it is good to know witch one is faster!
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2039418
and the worst one reason is
it is prohibited to
use any test apps to measure the real values of the +- 10 %
you must say to someone if something made
. it fill good
. it seem for my is is quickly
. it is good
. my poll say it is good
if you say a friendly to someone, that did not do anything with his new version and that what he did not show any results
you whole post will be deleted
If you come with the results (show pictures from that) you will be banned 3 days.
They have rules for everyone member other one rules!
I`m old member I follow not only the apps or the roms or the kernels
I follow also development of the whole site and whole country and whole country's?
I look a little more and a little wider
What does communism have to do with this? xD
Thread Closed, OP please read the Forum Rules on posting. This is a Development site, not a social site type, Thank You.