Develop Bugs

Regarding Rights To OUR Intellectual Property Here

In light of what I considered to be a couple of very disturbing developments, I think at this point, a dialogue/debate needs to be opened on what rights/copyrights a contributor has on the intellectual material he/she posts here.
Sakajati was abruptly censored when he suggested that future roms may be administered through a tool bar and not administered through this site.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=3288089&postcount=10332
And the way that BeyondInvisible was driven off this site by the " takers " and not supported by this site. ( the people that stole his new pay/per icons and published them for free, should have been banned). http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=2798052#post2798052 because he dared suggest that it might be time for all the takers to pony up.
When your work becomes widely successful ala; olinex, jockyw, sakajati, MobileMatt, JCKOTZE, Schap, in the kaiser forums, at what point does toiling around in poverty while you work hard for others for free, become less attractive than selling your work?
Who now owns your work , you, XDA, is it copyrighted? When you decide to take it private what ownership rights does XDA retain?
If you request that XDA remove your work, can they leave an archive of it?
I love this site it is the greatest resource on the net for PDA's but I think these subjects could use a good going over by the Mods and the membership.
Dennis

Removing SJ's toolbar was NOT censorship, regardless of how you're trying to spin it. We received several complaints from users who don't feel comfortable being required to install a toolbar just to use their favorite ROM... ask any Mod, we all get the emails. The action I took (editing the toolbar links) is the most benign available to Moderators. I could have closed the thread, and moved it to a Mod-only section while the investigation/discussion took place. Instead, I opted to merely edit out the download links.
There is no justification for requiring users to install a toolbar into Internet Explorer (or any other browser in the Windows environment) just so they can have access to a Chef's ROMs.
Now while a decision has not yet been made, I can confidently say that if SJ had promoted his toolbar as a tool to help all users of his ROMs get the latest "breaking" new on development, and NOT required it in order to obtain the password required for flashing, then we [most likely] would have allowed the toolbar to stay linked on XDA.

I think part of the problem here is that many seem to think that they are entitled to what the chefs produce for nothing. The hours spent porting and testing should count for something but for many it is just expected. I for one have no problem contributing what I can when I'm able. It is too bad that more don't do this.
Kirby

Intellectual property laws protect the inventor/creator rights of ownership to their intellectual property in cyber media. So there is no fear but a concern for any coder that his or her work marketing could be abused or it could be stolen. That is the risk one takes without his or her choice when they share their creations with others.
I also read XDA rules, and it clearly states that soliciting anything for money is prohibited. many cooks are on the border line of asking for money rather encouraging donation for sharing the fruit of their work with others. I do not have a problem with that and believe the majority here share my sentiment. I have a problem however with someone begging for donation without any substantiating efforts, invention or creation to merit the donation solicitation. That being said, I believe SJ was a true gentleman in all of his posts and never infringed on callus donation request; having a tool bar that he feels if XDA was out ( and it was out few times in the past month) as an optional site but not alternative support site that can be accessed where members can help each other is not a bad idea.
We seem to forget sometimes that XDA site was created to help one developer another achieve excellence in the field of e-communication.
so again, I have no problem with SJ promoting his tool bar as long as it is not used to ransom donation for solving issues and i am sure like I said earlier, this is NOT SJ's intention.

NotATreoFan said:
Removing SJ's toolbar was NOT censorship, regardless of how you're trying to spin it. We received several complaints from users who don't feel comfortable being required to install a toolbar just to use their favorite ROM...
There is no justification for requiring users to install a toolbar into Internet Explorer (or any other browser in the Windows environment) just so they can have access to a Chef's ROMs.
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Click to collapse
That was one of my major points, there " was " no requirement . because there " was no rom ". You struck preemptively to something that had not happened yet, because it might happen in the future. You squashed his right to promote a private project , as many many people do here, because a few ungrateful people complained that in the future they might have to obtain the rom it SJ's way.
Had he stated that the next rom would be available only by joining his website, would you have shut him down?
My question is, at what point does a chef have the right to take his work private, and how , without any interference from this site.
Believe me, I am not trying to "spin " anything against anyone, I have a great deal of respect for you and all you have done for this forum ( we miss your input in the Kaiser world ) I just thought that it was a heavy handed response ( and yes censorship ) to something that hadn't even happened yet.
A simple PM could have alieviated the situation for the time being, while the Mods figured it out. Not a head on erase everything, assault SJ's right to promote his work and wares.
And I would say again, that the integrity of this site depends on people to share openly and honestly without fear of unjustified reprisal, SJ has said that he will not for the time being, take any new roms private. I think that is enough for all his links to be restored. If not, what other definitions of censorship do you have ?
JimmyMcGee said:
Your opinion is respected. But the appearance was that he WAS requiring people to use the Toolbar to get the Password for the ROM.
Sakajati can do what ever he wants with his ROM, if he chooses to require the Toolbar, that's his choice. If XDA, the people who maintain and provide some presence for his ROM here say that's not in the spirit of the community, then he can release the ROMs on his website soley.
Basically you have to follow certain rules to post your stuff on SourceForge, so think of at as the same thing.
You seem to be the only one with a problem. sakajati is a great guy and is being cooperative in the investigation.
There is written law and common law. This falls more into to "Common Law" area, which is why I said it was a Grey area.
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I brought this over from the Hyperdragon thread to here, to discuss.
I just want everyone to know, this has more to do with the big picture than it has to do with sakajati. This has nothing to do with NATF or with jimmy and I am probably not the only one who has a problem with the way it was handled. I am just the one with the big mouth. And we all know that sakajati would never say a word or give anything less than his full cooperation.
I just want someone to tell me not just for SJ, but for the good of the whole community and as a precedent for future complaints of this type, why SJ couldn't have been shot a PM asking what his intentions were, and if they approached a grey area, he could have been informed and he would have cooperated. End of any problem. It is not like there was any urgency, as I said before, there was no requirement because there was no rom.
And if people did over react then it is good for everyone to get a dialogue started. That is what this site is all about.
Thanks guys for doing a great job !

denco7 said:
That was one of my major points, there " was " no requirement . because there " was no rom ". You struck preemptively to something that had not happened yet, because it might happen in the future. You squashed his right to promote a private project , as many many people do here, because a few ungrateful people complained that in the future they might have to obtain the rom it SJ's way.
Had he stated that the next rom would be available only by joining his website, would you have shut him down?
My question is, at what point does a chef have the right to take his work private, and how , without any interference from this site.
Believe me, I am not trying to "spin " anything against anyone, I have a great deal of respect for you and all you have done for this forum ( we miss your input in the Kaiser world ) I just thought that it was a heavy handed response ( and yes censorship ) to something that hadn't even happened yet.
A simple PM could have alieviated the situation for the time being, while the Mods figured it out. Not a head on erase everything, assault SJ's right to promote his work and wares.
And I would say again, that the integrity of this site depends on people to share openly and honestly without fear of unjustified reprisal, SJ has said that he will not for the time being, take any new roms private. I think that is enough for all his links to be restored. If not, what other definitions of censorship do you have ?
I brought this over from the Hyperdragon thread to here, to discuss.
I just want everyone to know, this has more to do with the big picture than it has to do with sakajati. This has nothing to do with NATF or with jimmy and I am probably not the only one who has a problem with the way it was handled. I am just the one with the big mouth. And we all know that sakajati would never say a word or give anything less than his full cooperation.
I just want someone to tell me not just for SJ, but for the good of the whole community and as a precedent for future complaints of this type, why SJ couldn't have been shot a PM asking what his intentions were, and if they approached a grey area, he could have been informed and he would have cooperated. End of any problem. It is not like there was any urgency, as I said before, there was no requirement because there was no rom.
And if people did over react then it is good for everyone to get a dialogue started. That is what this site is all about.
Thanks guys for doing a great job !
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My Friend read this...
sakajati said:
Just uploaded the cab to download center. It will add [Slide down for call functions] feature.
*** Please all of you install my toolbar [mod edit: link removed], this is the tool that will keep you updated and you will receive alert/message via the toolbar for news and announcements regularly from me. If you're using HyperDragon ROMs, you have to install it since the next rom release will be password protected and you'll get the password only via this toolbar . No adware, spyware, crapware, underware, read the Toolbar Privacy [mod edit: link removed]for details.***
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Read the Green Parts. The general consensus is IF sakajati REQUIRES people to use the Toolbar to use his ROMs, he is no longer contributing to the XDA ROM Community.
sakajati is ALLOWED and not censored to require this if he so chooses. However the ramifications are, that he would no longer be allowed to advertise his ROM here.
The "common law" rule is, if you post a ROM on XDA, you are contributing to the community and the ROM shall have NO STRINGS attached. No requirement to Give Money, no requirement to have a toolbar installed.
If sakajati wishes to offer his toolbar as a way to stay in "constant contact" with him, then I don't see a problem. But the release of the ROM shall not be contingent on the toolbar. At least not while it is advertised on XDA.
And P.S. lets not get into calling ROMs Intellectual Property, because honestly, ROMs are Microsoft's I.P. All chefs do is tweak, improve and skin ROMs. And I don't mean to take anything away from chefs awesome work by saying that. So saying sakajati's ROM is his I.P. is like saying you taking you Toyota Celica, painting it Pink with Green Racing strips and boring out the engine, makes that car your I.P.
But as NATF has said, no final desicsion has been made, I only type this reply to give full disclosure, to show that our intentions are not to censor.
Thanks.

JimmyMcGee said:
If sakajati wishes to offer his toolbar as a way to stay in "constant contact" with him, then I don't see a problem. But the release of the ROM shall not be contingent on the toolbar. At least not while it is advertised on XDA.
But as NATF has said, no final decision has been made, I only type this reply to give full disclosure, to show that our intentions are not to censor.
Thanks.
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Since this has all been put to rest, I just have some final thoughts and then I'll shut up.
It was never about XDA's/Mod's disapproval as to what he intended to do, you all are entrusted with the success and smooth running of this site and have every right to administer this site as you see fit, (as I have every right to question why ) And it was not really about SJ, he was just the vehicle of my overall concern about creative people leaving this site because of real and perceived ( do it our way or get out ) disagreements.
I guess I just wanted to know, if people decided to take their projects private,such as a new rom, would they still be welcome here to support older projects or develop new projects here ( that fell within XDA guildlines ) and while supporting their projects, could they in a subtle non-commercial way, direct people to private/financially enhancing projects.
And of course I still object to the way it was handled, that sort of, " we are taking it all down until we decide " way of doing it, is something that happens to noobs that don't know any better. Not to someone who has done as much for, and contributed so much to the Kaiser community as sakajati has done.
The Mods always preach, " if you have a dispute with another member, take it to PM, " Unfortunately this great advise wasn't followed, and I am glad that SJ was not offended by this and did not pack up his toys and go home ( like unfortunately other members have done )
And I am sorry if " I " have offended anyone, that was not my intention. I love this site and think that discussions like this benefit the longevity of this site. I am glad everything has been resolved and I will shut up and go away now
Oh yeah ........one more thing
And P.S. lets not get into calling ROMs Intellectual Property, because honestly, ROMs are Microsoft's I.P. All chefs do is tweak, improve and skin ROMs. And I don't mean to take anything away from chefs awesome work by saying that. So saying sakajati's ROM is his I.P. is like saying you taking you Toyota Celica, painting it Pink with Green Racing strips and boring out the engine, makes that car your I.P.
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Tell that to Chip Foose and Orange County Choppers. They take other people's parts, design and tweak and create masterpieces worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Your telling me a Foose Design isn't intellectual property?

denco7 said:
The Mods always preach, " if you have a dispute with another member, take it to PM, " Unfortunately this great advise wasn't followed, and I am glad that SJ was not offended by this and did not pack up his toys and go home ( like unfortunately other members have done )
And I am sorry if " I " have offended anyone, that was not my intention. I love this site and think that discussions like this benefit the longevity of this site. I am glad everything has been resolved and I will shut up and go away now
Click to expand...
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This is not an issue of personal disagreement, it is a violation of our rules of operation. When we see questionable activity, we will always take the action of stopping the activity, contacting the OP, and trying to resolve it quickly. I am sure SJ understands this as well as anyone here that it was nothing personal, and simply just S.O.P. around here. It's a lot easier to take down a problem for a couple days, and then let it back up with an apology than it is to remove it after we've debated.
As for you question about prior contributions, of course anyone is welcome to support anything that they have and continue to offer that is in compliance with our rules here. Nothing even stops a user from selling some stuff, and giving others away. It's just that they can't post the stuff they're selling here, just the donation ware.

IP
I have just a couple points. The Phoenix team has a separate website we use for tracking bugs and other discussion so we don't clutter up this site. However our intent is to foster creativity, open communication and cooperation among users and chefs which we hope results in better products for the users of this site. So don't always think a private website like ours or SJ's is a bad thing.
However, I would like to point out what was only stated one time in the thread--the guts of these roms are the ip of microsoft and htc. Now as chef's we find other bits and pieces that are added--and these are the ip of their creators. Sometimes we contribute our own ip--like skins, icons and very specific know how to get the roms to help our devices perform at peak efficiency. But anyone who would try to take a rom private and sell it, would have some major issues without first getting license to do so from MS, HTC and those other people who own the other intellectual property.
There are many examples of apps that were developed by talented people here that have gone commercial. Those apps are still discussed and linked to here because they all have trial periods. There is nothing wrong with commercializing your own ip..The wrong comes when you commercialize ip that you don't own or haven't properly license.
So let's continue a great tradition of creativity. I believe that this site is the primary reason that HTC and microsoft keep trying to make a better operating system. This site is where many ideas come from. This site gives the OS life beyond the normal experience.

denco7 said:
(snip)
Oh yeah ........one more thing
Tell that to Chip Foose and Orange County Choppers. They take other people's parts, design and tweak and create masterpieces worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Your telling me a Foose Design isn't intellectual property?
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Pfft Those Posers

some confused thinking here -
A cook can ask for a contribution for his time but there is no way he can claim that a cooked rom is his IPR because it's belongs to someone else start with - no licence to modify has been granted!
Now creating programs from scratch, that's a different issue and how they want to deal with payment is upto them.

my theory is whoever created the forum and then got ppl to volounter to mantain it
ITS THERE FORUM
Its really up to them what they want to do

a few suggestions about adding non-htc WM devices support

*edit: as many people suggested in the posts. a new single forum for other manufacturers with 1 single subforum per maker might be a better idea than whats suggested in this post**
the mods have explained several times why they are not willing to support other non-HTC devices for various reasons over here so im not gonna ask that. i will however ask that the admins to consider spinning off another site to do that.
there are some other sites that try to do that but they ALL fail miserably because they dont have the ridiculously high number of smart users registered to them. to solve this major problem, i propose that the users data base of xda-dev gets synchronized with the newly created site.
the new site may look something like
- windows mobile support and development forums
- htc built devices like palm,xperia...etc
- 1 subforum per device (more if its a very popular devices like xperia X2,omnia, toshiba tg10...etc)

I wasn't aware of the reasoning for no non-HTC device forums. You have a link?
Personally I think we should have subforums for the popular non-HTC devices like i780, Omnia, Epix, SG01, Asus devices, etc. But who am I?

there are many http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=464635
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=463252
and the reasoning is that "jack of all trades is a jackass" or something like that

THE GRIZZ said:
mods: please drop your whack-a-mole hammers and consider this
the mods have explained several times why they are not willing to support other non-HTC devices for various reasons over here so im not gonna ask that. i will however ask that the admins to consider spinning off another site to do that.
there are some other sites that try to do that but they ALL fail miserably because they dont have the ridiculously high number of smart users registered to them. to solve this major problem, i propose that the users data base of xda-dev gets synchronized with the newly created site. all that is needed is for the user to confirm the newly created account in the new site (in case some of the users explicitly dont want to register)
the new site may look something like this
- windows mobile support and development forums
- htc built devices like palm,xperia...etc
- 1 subforum per device (more if its a very popular devices like xperia X2,omnia, toshiba tg10...etc)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First of all, title is misleading.
Second, it's never gonna happen (another site needs more resources, which this site is struggling with.
Third, I give you one day before this thread gets closed.
Cheers

THE GRIZZ said:
mods: please drop your whack-a-mole hammers and consider this
the mods have explained several times why they are not willing to support other non-HTC devices for various reasons over here so im not gonna ask that. i will however ask that the admins to consider spinning off another site to do that.
there are some other sites that try to do that but they ALL fail miserably because they dont have the ridiculously high number of smart users registered to them. to solve this major problem, i propose that the users data base of xda-dev gets synchronized with the newly created site. all that is needed is for the user to confirm the newly created account in the new site (in case some of the users explicitly dont want to register)
the new site may look something like this
- windows mobile support and development forums
- htc built devices like palm,xperia...etc
- 1 subforum per device (more if its a very popular devices like xperia X2,omnia, toshiba tg10...etc)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And add ponderous, overlarge, and un navigatable

sa2.14 said:
And add ponderous, overlarge, and un navigatable
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Click to collapse
just vote no and spare us your silly negativity. i was merely asking for them to consider it. if its a bad idea it will show from their replies and from the poll.
Third, I give you one day before this thread gets closed.
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stop suggesting them ideas. and they wont

Its so much easier to add a single "other devices" subforum (not even full section like what they are doing now for every single device device).
this way we all get the advantags of having non-htc devices without the extra work and headache that goes with creating full website page.
i like the " the users data base of xda-dev gets synchronized with the newly created site" part though

My opinion is to leave XDA as it is now
Do not add more non HTC forums!
It will just make it slower
Should be around the net good forums for other brands
When have you saw a site together between reebok and nike?
Every one has its own stores
Just my 3 cents

i had the same idea when i bought my omnia
http://winmodevelopers.co.cc
this site deals with all of the non htc devices
((although may i remind you its no way affiliated with this site it just served as inspiration))
it already has a few roms and a marketplace was opened in january, and yes were stuggling with resources but thats the way it is in the shadows lol
any non htc winmo device can be added, although smartphones will be added through poularity
also we are moving the entire site soon to a dedicted server soon courtisy of QUICKSITE and this will take time but feel free to add your nuggets of info to winmodevelopers.co.cc
also take note its a very fimiliar format to xda so u wont get lost
(disclaimers : winmodevs is not an affiliate of xda-developers.com, the onlt connection is certain members including me who frequent both sites)

I think that would be really cool! The TG01 needs to have support from the wonderful ppl @ xda!

ive already got the tg01 there and now ive just installed a chatrrom for geeks

THE GRIZZ said:
just vote no and spare us your silly negativity. i was merely asking for them to consider it. if its a bad idea it will show from their replies and from the poll.
I apologize for your dismissiveness. Only thing I would point out; is that in any enterprise, diminution of effort is really a bad thing. Take the examples of the car cos. just to name a couple. Orb3000 has it right, I've got a motorola device. Found forums that are exclusive to that. I believe that works out the best.
Click to expand...
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jayjay8585 said:
ive already got the tg01 there and now ive just installed a chatrrom for geeks
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Nice! Where did you get the TG01 from and for how much?
And guys, let's not be dismissive or overly negative like that please, we should try to be friendly.

jayjay8585 said:
i had the same idea when i bought my omnia
http://winmodevelopers.co.cc
this site deals with all of the non htc devices
((although may i remind you its no way affiliated with this site it just served as inspiration))
it already has a few roms and a marketplace was opened in january, and yes were stuggling with resources but thats the way it is in the shadows lol
any non htc winmo device can be added, although smartphones will be added through poularity
also we are moving the entire site soon to a dedicted server soon courtisy of QUICKSITE and this will take time but feel free to add your nuggets of info to winmodevelopers.co.cc
also take note its a very fimiliar format to xda so u wont get lost
(disclaimers : winmodevs is not an affiliate of xda-developers.com, the onlt connection is certain members including me who frequent both sites)
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the site in your signature has more forum sections than actual posts or members. in its current status, it cant complement xda-devs in any way

orb3000 said:
When have you saw a site together between reebok and nike?
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Well as I understood HTC as a company has nothing with this forum?
And I'm sure reebok and nike wouldn't make site together because each of them want to sell it's sports equipment.
But, if some sport equipment lover make site about sport equipment I'm pretty sure there would be nike and reebok and many others.
I have HTC so I selfishly don't care if there are other devices on XDA-developers.
But if I buy some other non-HTC device some day I would really love to have support for it from great site like xda-developers
cheers

Can someone please explain to me how operating a forum with the amount of members and posts is not a profitable business?

THE GRIZZ said:
the site in your signature has more forum sections than actual posts or members. in its current status, it cant complement xda-devs in any way
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Click to collapse
well firstly
Board Statistics
Our members have made a total of 272 posts
We have 341 registered members
and theres only bout 23 or 24 forums so that makes ur stateate very brash
secondly you think anything you start now will imediatly get 1.5 million members and chefs will flock and devs will batlle to host there crap on ur site, it doesnt work that way
ive worked really hard to get to the site in it urrent state and itll only get bigger
also you have to take into account everyone is eih ergreedy or impatient so if theres question asked on wimnmodevs then nobody sticks around too long because they wont answers now
so see as many little members there is that brilliant going when u rememerb the site only been opened for 6 months and xda has been going for years
but then again u sdont have to use it, thee are a few who are. but i mean if you really dont like it and if its that bad feel free to trawl around xda asking bout it when theres one there
btw this wasnt meant to sound *****y if it did i apologise im just saying if u want a new site at the drop of a hat that has this much support then it not happening im afraid site like this take time

Ok then. Whoever is willing to pay for the major bandwith and whatnot step right up and pay.

Usually I have never comment on those post ”we should get additional None HTC device listed here” but now I will give my 2 cents on this subject. THIS IS MY PERSONALY OPIONIEN I DON’T MEAN TO INSULT ANYONE!!!!:
I NEVER UNDERSTOOD WHY WE SHOULD NOT LIST NONE HTC DEVICES.
This forum has started to developt WinMo and during that time HTC were first manufucturer of such device. However this forum became so famous in last 8-10 years so that when you type anything WinMo related word in Google or any other search engine it leads you at least few times back to this forum. So with Such search engine power many old and new brilliant people come here to meet and share their knowledge. With Such knowledge base and information the searchengine crawlers are as I believe the most band wide consumer.
Now been this site so famous and this site been only on HTC devices, gives actually VERY BIG Marketing advantage to the “Company HTC” As I believe over the years HTC owns some of their popularity to this forum but DOESN’T HAS TO PAY SINGLE CENTS. I mean many other companies paying hard cash to make their names and their products popular in the search engines so that consumers can find them easily.
Furthermore we all here given so much feedback on our Dream devices or find so many mistakes on the current device models so that HTC itself can learn and align them self for future devices or even make correction on next produced patch for devices that are still in production. Again all these are for free of charge and without making expensive surveys. I assure you for HTC it is a kind of Gold mine here.
I personally believe competition amount of the manufacturer can bring only advantage to the consumer. This is for price and for quality!!!
Therefore As I believe continuing supporting only HTC devices here in XDA_DEV gives HTC big advantage on the mentioned COMPETITION and hurt as Consumer!!!
Be frank I don’t believe on those sister forums or what so ever (again I don’t wanted insult anyone’s idea it is just my opinion)
my simple mathematic is:
A forum based of people…people brings Knowledge/information…Knowledge/information brings search engines…. Search engines bring people.
From my experiences building a forum and been successful (popular) is very very Long and hard job
[FONT=&quot]Conclusion of above I would say we should Support here also none HTC devices[/FONT]

redbandana said:
Can someone please explain to me how operating a forum with the amount of members and posts is not a profitable business?
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Look arround you will obviously see that this forums attention is not making money!!! But I do fully agree with you that there is alot of opertunity to turn this site to BIG CASH...
However according the websiteoutlook (http://www.websiteoutlook.com/www.xda-developers.com) it stands not to bad there:
Net Worth $1.04 Million Daily Pageview 474342 Daily Ads Revenue $1425.48

Changes at XDA, Please Read

Hey Everyone,
I’ve been an XDA user (under another name) for a long time, but now I’ve been appointed a new role to work with Flar and the moderators to make the user experience here better. For example, some of you may have noticed that the site has gotten faster in the last several days and that there are fewer 502 gateway errors. This is no fluke—we’ve employed an expert server administrator who has been restructuring the database to allow for quicker access speeds and far fewer errors. There is still a lot of work to be done, but we’re off to a pretty good start.
Beyond improving site speed, number two on our list is to cut down on spam. We’ve already experimented with a few tactics that have had varying levels of success, and we’ll keep at it until we get it right.
We’re also working on a home page redesign (or the “portal” as some of you know it). Our goal is to make it a useful destination for finding the best content in the forums and to make it easy for users to find new information about a particular device without having to scan through dozens of threads. We are recruiting volunteers to help identify and "promote" content to the main page, which requires some writing skills (see the "news" posted to the home page in the past couple of days). If you're interested and serious about helping, send a PM to Flar; she is organizing the effort.
Finally-- and hopefully this doesn't cause a mass uproar-- we are considering the idea of selectively adding non-HTC device forums (focused on Windows Mobile and Android devices). Every day we get requests from users for this, and there's really no good reason why we cannot oblige them. Already the discussion is happening in the general forums. That said, we will only add new forums if: 1. We are confident added traffic won't cause site speed to suffer; 2. We can recruit quality moderators; and 3. The content and discussion is of high quality. The only way to know these things for sure is to try it out. So, within the next 14 days we are going to add two or three non-HTC forums. The delay is to ensure the site continues to operate at a reasonable speed and so we can figure out where to put the new forums (the forum homepage is already absurdly long and cluttered). We are open to suggestions as to deserving devices for our first non-HTC forums, so give us your ideas in this thread.
I look forward to working closely with you to bring about exciting new changes to XDA that will make the experience better for you.

Hi Svetius
I asked a while ago for a forum for the Roadster, HP iPAQ HX4700, unfortunatly i received no more information on the topic since I sent a PM to Flar, if this could be added as a new forum, i would be happy to moderate it
svetius;5335158
The delay is to ensure the site continues to operate at a reasonable speed and so we can figure out where to put the new forums (the forum homepage is already absurdly long and cluttered). We are open to suggestions as to deserving devices for our first non-HTC forums[/QUOTE said:
It's not that bad Just make a Bookmark
Thanks
Badwolve1
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XDA in 2010
Great to know about all this changes and modifications!
XDA is the number one forum on it´s genre
Personally I think adding non HTC devices could add a lot of intensive traffic and may deviate the main objectives and efforts from what this site was created, but I will support and promote any final decision made by Owners & Admin
Count with my help if required.
Just my 2 cents
Long live to XDA!!

It's great to see another Admin aboard XDA, and a very ambitious one at that! These sound like very exciting changes XDA will be going through, and some are much needed, like spam control and an update to the portal. I look forward to watching these take effect

Amen to non-HTC devices!
As a longtime HTC fan, I appreciate the great community we have here at XDA. But I'm looking to branch out, and I recenlty purchased a Toshiba TG01 that is a powerful device and I'd love to see a forum for that if there is enough demand.
The LG Expo is also poised to be a big seller here in the states; already there is work going on with that here at XDA, so perhaps that deserves a forum (it's one of the first WinMo Snapdragon devices after all).
Long live XDA!
PS Maybe a different color scheme would be nice, the yellow has been giving me lots of eye strain recently...

chambo622 said:
Amen to non-HTC devices!
PS Maybe a different color scheme would be nice, the yellow has been giving me lots of eye strain recently...
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If you use Firefox you might want to try this.

Very glad to hear XDA is dropping their completely non-sensical rule of not allowing non-HTC devices (oh, but we will allow Android on a WM-centric site? pfff)
Aside from l3v5y, none of the better known people on XDA I talk to on a regular bases agree with this rule (most think it's a really stupid move), so I'm sure a lot of people will be happy there will be change.
If I might be so bold as to make a couple of device suggestions:
- Samsung Omnia 2 I8000 GSM & I920 CDMA
- Samsung Omnia Pro B7610 & Giorgio Armani II B7620 (pimped pro)
- Toshiba TG-01 (aka T-01A)
- LG Expo (aka IQ, Monaco)
- Acer F1 (aka neoTouch S200)
Of course there are lots of others but most of them are quickly getting old... At least from my perspective these are the most important devices... Then again, what do I know, ey?

Nice to hear that you guys are so busy in making the experience better on XDA.
But I think we should not include those other non-HTC phones.
Personally I hate those Omnia's, they're in my opinion just crappy phones.
Sad to see it happen but you Mods probably know what's best for the community...

Sounds great to me!
It means my SE X2 will have your support!!!
Bravo!

Chainfire:
The main reason I've been opposed to extra forums is because it would impact the rest of the fora here. If the speed of this site is the first priority, and if this site can still achieve what it was made for (it's in the name really, XDA developers) then I can't really disagree.
Also, it would make a significant increase in the workload for the existing moderators, unless we recruit more....

I think it would work well if the devices selected were only ones that pass muster and are as feature rich as their HTC counterparts (e.g. Omnia II, Toshiba TG01 etc).
I'm fairly new to here, but one thing I do like is that this site is heavily slanted towards Windows Mobile. So while I think it would be great to welcome other Windows Phones into the community, I do not think that Android devices outside of HTC phones should be accepted.

This is absolutely awesome, thanks so much. Having the support of Xda-Devs is absolutely a must when buying a phone. until today buying a Samsung-device was completely unimaginable!
Maybe you can add some JS/AJAX to the page, so all device-specific subforums are folded, except the devices the user needs (multiple devices would be nice).
And IMHO you need a really good and catchy logo.
If you want me to help with designing feel free to send me a PM

What a great Decision
I am really happy to hear this. With my second smartphone (TD) i entered the world of xda developers and found answers for every question i ever had. I think it is the best place for discussions about htc devices. When i bought my Samsung Galaxy i was i little bit f***d up because of no more xda developers and it is great to hear this news now.
...hopefuly there will be a section for Galaxy Users?

I was crazy about xda back when I had an Apache/ppc 6700. But I am also a person who likes to try new things and move on to better things. There is no reason we should be penalized for buying a MOTOTOLA DROID or SAMSUNG GALAXY. Show us some love.

Great News Indeed

Wow! Just an awesome news! I think this is a realy good idea and the right way to became thes most important source for ALL Winmo (and Android) devices.

It's not nonsensical to focus on HTC devices on a website that is FOR those devices.
Imagine people asking for help with their Honda's on a Ford Mustang Forum.
As a long time XDA user, I love this website, when I got the Wizard, then the sapphire, I was insanely grateful to have such resources available to me on this site.
Eventually I got the DROID, at which point I had to abandon this forum, and all it's resources, which sucked, but I understand this isn't the place.
With that said, I am excited to see this forum open up for non HTC devices, as I will directly benefit from it. I am worried however that the forum may suffer not just in speed, but in focus. Think about those Chinese food restaurants that sell Italian food, hamburgers, and burritos, they make everything, but they don't make any one thing well. XDA forum is the equivalent of the BEST burger shop in town, so I think it is a very good idea to run a "Trial Period" and I hope for the best!

.... and yes svetius welcome on board mate

This site keeps getting better and better, I appreciate you guys taking time to consider and address suggestions (adding other popular phones-Android and Windows based) to the site. Keep up the good work guys and gals!

samsung galaxy

Dusting off iPhone-Developers.com

Recently we've been the target (via PM and email) of a coordinated effort by some users to get XDA to add an iPhone forum. This intensified a bit recently with the "jailbreaking is legal" news that came out a few weeks ago. We also recently “lost” a behind-the-scenes guy at XDA to the iPhone (someone who had donated countless hours to helping with site development and bug fixes).
Despite his pleading, some of the mods and I decided earlier this month that xda-developers is NOT the place for detailed iPhone discussion. There's just too much going on here. XDA is still digesting the move to add non-HTC WinMo/Android devices. And the site is just too darn big already!
With all that said: many of you know that we also own the iPhone-Developers.com domain. It was purchased years ago—mostly as a joke. Now, with the maturation of the iPhone community (in particular, the independent developer and jailbreak community) we are going to dust it off and launch an XDA sister site. The goal is to try to replicate the XDA feel while keeping XDA itself free of iPhone-related clutter. We see it as a win/win for everyone (iPhone lovers and haters alike). The aim of the site is to demystify jailbreaking and to make iPhone development more mainstream. Millions of people have benefited from the development work that has taken place at XDA over the last decade, and we want to bring these same benefits to iPhone owners.
If you are excited by this move, please keep your expectations in check: The site will be totally separate from XDA (separate mods, servers, everything) and will probably be somewhat "Wild West" to start out (like XDA in the early years). We have assigned a new admin—the former XDA tech volunteer referenced above. His user name is Arbre, and he also is doing all the tech development for the site. He hopes to have it launched (at least in beta form) in September.
We are looking for a few people to help get things started in the new forums. If you’ve got any jailbreak/development experience on the iPhone and want to help out just PM Arbre and he’ll get in touch with you when we’re closer to a beta launch.

PM'd him already

Is there anyway to make a poll to see if anyone else is interested to the success of iphone-developers.com?
I already feel as though making another forum for iphone users is redundant since there is already tons of other ones light-years ahead on the web.
Think about how many successful "xda" look-a-likes are out there **Coughs... htc-pedia** <<-- NotMuch.
I just don't think it will be worth the effort, to be honest. Is there another thread where others are discussing this?

lemonspeakers said:
Is there another thread where others are discussing this?
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Looks like nobody cares.

lemonspeakers said:
Is there anyway to make a poll to see if anyone else is interested to the success of iphone-developers.com?
I already feel as though making another forum for iphone users is redundant since there is already tons of other ones light-years ahead on the web.
Think about how many successful "xda" look-a-likes are out there **Coughs... htc-pedia** <<-- NotMuch.
I just don't think it will be worth the effort, to be honest. Is there another thread where others are discussing this?
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Maybe you're right. But the launch of the site has been totally funded by a donor. We hope we create a somewhat unique vibe over there. But if not, then it hasn't hurt anyone.

lemonspeakers said:
Is there anyway to make a poll to see if anyone else is interested to the success of iphone-developers.com?
I already feel as though making another forum for iphone users is redundant since there is already tons of other ones light-years ahead on the web.
Think about how many successful "xda" look-a-likes are out there **Coughs... htc-pedia** <<-- NotMuch.
I just don't think it will be worth the effort, to be honest. Is there another thread where others are discussing this?
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As the one who is actually building and running iphone-developers, I can tell you that for me it is definitely worth the effort. To even have the chance at creating something like xda for the iphone is incredibly exciting.
The only reason I got svetius and the site owners to consider this project in the first place was because of the number of requests we've gotten to add iphone forums -- it turns out a lot of xda users have iphones, and many have even switched altogether. Creating a new site for these people makes a lot of sense (to me at least).
Plus, as svetius said, there is really nothing to lose by trying. I'm the one bearing all of the work, and if you're not interested in apple products then xda will be the exact same as usual
-- Arbre

I'm just wondering if you are going to bridge the two sites together, so that registered on one is registered on the other etc.

MordyT said:
I'm just wondering if you are going to bride the two sites together, so that registered on one is registered on the other etc.
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I doubt it...he said they will be completely separate, including separate servers etc...
I'm not an iphone person at all, but sounds like it will be very successful, with the xda name behind it!

MordyT said:
I'm just wondering if you are going to bride the two sites together, so that registered on one is registered on the other etc.
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That is a great question. I hope that this is possible. This way it also retains our reputation instead of starting from scratch while claiming that you are so and so.

Excelent news!!!!
I'm slowly porting my apps (adding some more bling) to the iPhone with flash CS5, only made a beta of flashlight so far, but was hopping for the greatness of a XDA forum-like to "bind" all scatered users out there, in a way that only XDA can.
Cant wait for it...

lemonspeakers said:
Is there anyway to make a poll to see if anyone else is interested to the success of iphone-developers.com?
I already feel as though making another forum for iphone users is redundant since there is already tons of other ones light-years ahead on the web.
Think about how many successful "xda" look-a-likes are out there **Coughs... htc-pedia** <<-- NotMuch.
I just don't think it will be worth the effort, to be honest. Is there another thread where others are discussing this?
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There are of course many other iPhone sites around as indeed there are for WM / Android etc. Included in that there is also a range of good and poor quality. However, we often talk about our "Community" here at xda-devs and this combined with good quality content is what defines a good forum site. Creating, the right atmosphere combined with quality content is what will also make or break a new iPhone site. It really doesn't matter about the volume of other sites if you can create a better feel in a new site people will move.
We should also not forget that there has been a 200% rise in the smartphone market over the past year and 93% of that has come from the iPhone. Consequently there is a vast and ever increasing number of potential members who have not established a loyalty to already existing sites.
Good luck to Arbre in getting this going, though I'm sure he doesn't need it
Mike

I'm very interested as I have recently seen the light and ditched WinMo on my Tilt 2 for the iPhone 4

lemonspeakers said:
That is a great question. I hope that this is possible. This way it also retains our reputation instead of starting from scratch while claiming that you are so and so.
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We're trying to link the user databases of XDA and iPhone-Developers so that if you want, you can transfer your XDA account.

lemonspeakers said:
That is a great question. I hope that this is possible. This way it also retains our reputation instead of starting from scratch while claiming that you are so and so.
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svetius said:
We're trying to link the user databases of XDA and iPhone-Developers so that if you want, you can transfer your XDA account.
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It is defiantly possible, and several sites exist today that show off that ability. I am glad you are looking into the option, as that will boost the amount of people who are active there.

Looking forward to seeing this go live! Hopefully it will encompass the same community feel that XDA has nurtured and grown
Plus if XDA members who are interested in the iPhone also register with the IPD forum, we will bump into members with whom we may already be acquainted So we will have a ready made 'starting' community!

This actually sounds like a great idea, imagine the development that will come out of this

refthemc said:
This actually sounds like a great idea, imagine the development that will come out of this
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That's kinda the idea

soon we will have android on the iphone 4 cuz of xda members
and yes i know android is there for iphone 3g

What a great news
Excelent news!!!!
Since i bought my iphone, i no longer visit xda developers but now everything will be diferent.
Can´t wait

This is GREAT news!

[Q] Information about the nitty gritty of XDA

hey, i recently joined this page on facebook (i've withheld the name of the page as to not seem like i'm here to promote it or such, not that it requires promotion with its 2 million members) and a many of us including the owner of the page there are a free-thinking bunch. The problem is that whenever some user finds something we say offensive, we get reported and are blocked from posting for 10-12 hours, sometimes entire days...
The gracious admin there took it upon himself to finance an entirely new site as a refuge for us. But most of lack the technical know-how of getting a site up and running. We have a few volunteers ready to devote their time and skills to help in the site's construction.
The owner suggested a forum-esque feel to the site rather than something like facebook itself and when anyone mentions forum the only thing my mind thinks is XDA!! This site is the epitome of what a forum should be about!!
So i was hoping if anyone could give me some sort of information as to what the site is based on (HTML, PHP, etc)? what type security measures should we be looking at? we read something about a using social networking engines to enable features like instant messaging...
i was hoping if someone could point me (and by relation, us) in the right direction.
Any help would be much appreciated.

psychocyst said:
hey, i recently joined this page on facebook (i've withheld the name of the page as to not seem like i'm here to promote it or such, not that it requires promotion with its 2 million members) and a many of us including the owner of the page there are a free-thinking bunch. The problem is that whenever some user finds something we say offensive, we get reported and are blocked from posting for 10-12 hours, sometimes entire days...
The gracious admin there took it upon himself to finance an entirely new site as a refuge for us. But most of lack the technical know-how of getting a site up and running. We have a few volunteers ready to devote their time and skills to help in the site's construction.
The owner suggested a forum-esque feel to the site rather than something like facebook itself and when anyone mentions forum the only thing my mind thinks is XDA!! This site is the epitome of what a forum should be about!!
So i was hoping if anyone could give me some sort of information as to what the site is based on (HTML, PHP, etc)? what type security measures should we be looking at? we read something about a using social networking engines to enable features like instant messaging...
i was hoping if someone could point me (and by relation, us) in the right direction.
Any help would be much appreciated.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This site is running on vBulletin 3.8.6 which is commercial software. There are free bulletin boards out there. As for security, this is a massive topic that I don't think anyone can summarise. Obvious things like good password policies (long and random, never re-used, etc) and keeping all software patched up to date are key. Other than that it all depends on the implementation. Also, there are penetration testing tools that you can find off the internet to test your site.
Dave

thanks a million Dave. i'll look into it and pass the message on to our group.

psychocyst said:
thanks a million Dave. i'll look into it and pass the message on to our group.
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What Dave said, but beware that your site is only as secure as the system it runs on.
Your system can be the most secure in the world, with lovely nice PHP code, the latest patched vBulletin install, and I might still get into it...
If you are using shared web hosting, and some peon is using an out of date wordpress install, they can likely wreak a fair bit of havock on a poorly setup server.
Unfortunately most shared hosting is poorly setup. If you have 2 million members, you WILL need dedicated server space. I would also suggest you need to seriously consider the undertaking here - 2 million people is A LOT, and I don't know how many simultaneous users you are talking about, but it sounds a big target...
You will need a fairly powerful server from the sounds of it. I would suggest looking at the available forum systems, installing them (free ones), or trying out the demos.
I assist in the running of a number of sites, from single figure numbers of visitors per day, through to hundreds of thousands/millions per day... The requirements for these differ HUGELY. While something free like SMF might be good for a site with 200 folk, it's not likely a good idea on a site with 100,000 visitors per day posting...
Consider backup strategies too, for WHEN the worst happens - not if... Where will you store backups? How will you secure them?
Finally, remember to look to the future. phpBB is pretty poor, I suggest avoiding it. But what will you move to next? Make sure you pick a system that ain't gonna die tomorrow... If it does, you are stuck without security updates, and you might find it hard to migrate to another one... Be sure to go with a system that has good support to migrate further if/when the time comes...

woah!! ok, this was a big help...although we have close to 2 million people signed on, only about 30 - 40% of those are regularly active and perhaps 100 or so who're almost always there...
i saw BBCode implementation at linux mint forums and found it a total fail compared to XDA...i had completely forgotten about the back-up portion...
knew i could count on XDA for a lil' help...God i love this site!!

psychocyst said:
woah!! ok, this was a big help...although we have close to 2 million people signed on, only about 30 - 40% of those are regularly active and perhaps 100 or so who're almost always there...
i saw BBCode implementation at linux mint forums and found it a total fail compared to XDA...i had completely forgotten about the back-up portion...
knew i could count on XDA for a lil' help...God i love this site!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Haha no worries.
From those figures I would size the site based on coping with 5000 simultaneous users minimum. I doubt you will get as much tbh, as many people hit the homepage and look at the latest, then go to the next site they visit.
If you can afford, aim to cope with 10k+ simultaneous, to cover you for if you get a bout of publicity...
I'd reckon on a well-run server you would be OK with 8 to 16 GB of RAM, and a few hundred gigabytes of hdd. Bandwidth is hard to gauge without info on the site and content...
But I think it could be run for under $400 per month, and that is a very high estimate to cover things like multiple backup locations.
You will instantly ruin your site reputation if you need to use backups and they don't work...
If nobody is experienced in server management, hire someone to do it. These things are often best left to the experts where you are unsure... It will likely pay for itself in their expertise at least 3 times a month (or at least that's how often some of my clients proclaim I saved their "lives" )