Develop Bugs

Photon: What Windows Mobile 7 could have been

Pocketnow.com has a great story on Windows "Phone" 7 and details about what happened to Windows "Mobile" 7, codenamed Photon.
I think it's worth a read. I can add a little detail: Photon has been killed about 18 months ago. That's how long development of Windows Phone 7 took them. 18 months. And that's why the Windows Phone 7 they've shown at MWC looks so unfinished: Because it is.
Photon was the original Windows Mobile 7 project. An evolution of Windows Mobile 6. They were hard at work back then, trying to make Windows Mobile 7 competitive to iPhone OS. Windows Mobile 7 was originally planned to be released in mid 2009.
But at some point, they dumped the whole project and decided to start from scratch. Photon was dead. And Windows "Mobile" was doomed, making way for Windows "Phone". Instead of Photon, they released Windows Mobile 6.5 in mid 2009, a stop gap release to give them more time to finish their new Windows Phone 7 project.
Well, we all know how that turned out.
I personally think that they've made a mistake. I think Windows Mobile 7 (Photon) would have been competitive, as it essentially would have solved all of Windows Mobile's problems, but preserving the power of Windows Mobile, the reason we use and like it.
Windows Phone 7 will instead be much more closed and remove a great proportion of the power user features, that were the reason for us not to move on to other platforms, like the iPhone.
But what do I know? Windows Mobile 7 wouldn't have been much different from other platforms, like Android and iPhone OS. Sure, it would have had much more power user features, but it would have been centered around applications, like the others. It would certainly have gained a significant market share, but no dominance. With Windows Phone 7, instead, Microsoft is aiming higher.
But that also means a lot of risk. It means Windows Phone 7 might fail completely. In the end, it will come down to how good they are at getting developers excited about their new platform. That's where Palm failed, despite having a very compelling platform with webOS. Microsoft might fail the same way, though they have a much better starting position than Palm (more money, more resources, better developing tools).
In my opinions, they've taken too much risk while desperately trying to create something different from their competitors' app-centric platforms. As Engadget said it: Being different does not necessarily mean making a difference. If they can make a difference, they might dominate the smartphone market some time, like they dominate the desktop OS market. But if they fail to make a difference... well, Windows Phone might fall into oblivion, like Palm's webOS.
I like the Windows Phone 7 UI. I like it a lot. See my take on the interface quoted at the bottom of this post.
But Windows Phone 7 is very similar to Vista: Just like they killed the "Longhorn" project, they killed "Photon", and started from scratch. And just like Vista, what they're going to release by the end of 2010 will be an unfinished product.
They're trying to make you think that 7 is their lucky number, but actually, it might turn out that it's not, and Windows Phone 7 is just like Windows 6 (Vista).
Also, Windows Phone 7 is not that different from Palm's webOS: When the Palm Pre was released, webOS was a nice looking mobile OS, but lacking features and refinements. And lacking third party applications. Expect the same to happen with Windows Phone 7.
Here's the Pocketnow story: http://pocketnow.com/thought/thoughts-on-windows-phone-7-series-btw-photon-is-dead
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In short: This is easily and by far the best and most well thought through UI I've ever seen. Ever.
I particularly like
- the ability to pin pretty much everything to the first page (but unlike Sense, as many things as you want), whether it's contacts, programs or whatever
- the things you pin to the first page not being static, but also showing information - a very clever way to bring together the iPhone's icon-based home screen with Windows Mobile's information based home screen.
- the navigation through the pages, with the text on top going out of the screen to show you that there's more you can discover by swiping left/right
- the panorama backgrounds on all the screens (cover arts in music, a random picture in photos etc.)
- the ability for third party developers to integrate their stuff (like additional social networks or streaming services) into the hubs (I hope there will be a lot of freedom for third parties to do so!).
- the seamless integration of all kinds of services in general, whether it's Exchange, Windows Live (finally!!), Facebook...
I also particularly like that some good concepts from previous Windows Mobile versions have been preserved:
- long press menus
- softkeys
- quick search through any list (in WM6.5, it was the keyboard icon, now it's the required search button)
Those enable a consistent UI throughout all applications, contrary to the mess you find on the iPhone, where important buttons like "back" are in different places depending on the application you're in.
OK, enough of the praise, here's what I do NOT like:
- The all applications list: That should be a grid, cause there's lots of wasted space there.
- There seems to be no easy way to get to the music controls while music is playing in the background.
- Apparently there is no easy way to switch between running applications, this seems to work much like WM6.5, with the back button taking you to the application you used before. This is a mess, the back button should open some kind of task switcher instead.
Will that awesome UI be enough to keep me from buying an Android device? Well, ONLY if I get all the important applications from the beginning, like for example satellite navigation (TomTom, Copilot...) and ONLY if there are no restrictions on how I use my device - give me multitasking, unlimited access to the file system and registry, let companies develop competing applications (like browsers) etc.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

Great writeup...it's obvious that in order to attain mass market share MS needs to develop an interface that just works straight out of the box. It has to work for all ages which is something Apple have done with the iPhone..simple and attractive with a huge incentive to keep ones interest high through their ever growing appstore. If they can get it right first time and with the enthusiasm from application developers they may well be onto a winner but the win may not come immediately.However, they need to make every step count along the way and the longer they take the bigger the gap to the lead.
I also believe MS may leave at least one door unlocked to get their OS to do what powerusers expect from it.
From what I've seen of the WP7 interface so far it looks pretty neat and I'm definately looking forward to it hopefully landing on my HD2 soon.

Uh... link's dead.

aussiebum said:
Uh... link's dead.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Apparently pocketnow is in the process of moving to a new server and that article is on the new server. I can't see it either.
Microsoft is MASSIVELY different than Palm. In size, skills, and especially developer support and tools.
WebOS is a great OS but like you said, it's main failure is developer support. First, it's partially their fault due to the architecture. Until recently, you couldn't really write "native" apps using their SDK (people hacked it long ago but that's another story). Basically you were limited to little more than a web page with increased access to the phone. Meh. Also, WebOS has very minimal market penetration. Until recently it was only available on the US's #3 carrier and only later on select carriers abroad. Why develop software for a device that hardly anyone has? Apple was (as they always seem to do) able to drum up a large amout of support with very little reason to show for it. Microsoft will have a much more compelling story than Apple did with it's iPhone but will lack Apple's "it" factor (Jobs' RDF).
Palm is tiny. They don't have the money and patience like MS does to sustain a long, battle for the hearts and minds of phone users everywhere. Just look at what MS did with the Xbox. They didn't turn a profit on that unit until well into the Xbox 360. But did MS quit after the original Xbox was a failure? No, they tried harder. And now look.
Palm doesn't have the devloper tools. Yea, they can write plugins for Eclipse but they lack the ability to write extensive APIs and integrate them into Visual Studio. Do not underestimate the power of .net (figuratively and literally). Silverlight is fantastic as is XNA. If I can make a 'game' (although it sucked lol) anyone can.
No guts no glory. Microsoft is playing for keeps. I have no doubt that WP7 or WP8 will be successful.
FYI, Windows 7 is really Windows 6.1. And just like Longhorn, Photon was likely destined to be a failure. Vista was a necessary step to get to 7. The hatred for Vista is largely unfounded and 7 really is just Vista with the complaints fixed and a bit more modern UI.
We still don't know the story on app compat. It's running WinCE and it will support silverlight (.net) so there's little reason, other than wanting a complete clean break, that most old apps won't work. WinCE uses cab installs just like WM (because it is CE). I can write one app and deploy it to a bare WinCE 6.0 system or to WM6.5 (CE5). Maybe they will allow old stuff, maybe they won't. We won't know til next month. They very well may not have made this decision yet.
At one time the iPhone had 0 apps and WM had a **** ton. How long did it take for iPhone to build up a huge base of devs? I'm expecting a pretty solid selection of apps written for WP7 right from launch. Microsoft already has a lot of the key stuff onboard. I've got something in mind and will likely be doing one myself (something I started for WM6).

I agree.
I wouldn't worry about WP7 apps' database like the iPhone people will get interest in it, its potential is great when it comes to the new UI (the only thing we know for sure).
About the Photon project, why do you think that it's dead?
It seems that M$ is willing to keep the old branch of Windows Mobile by renaming it to Windows Phone Classic. Perhaps Photon is the final evolution of Windows Phone Classic. I don't think, IF they keep on developping, that they are going to stop to this current bad look and poor customization of WM6.5.3.
I don't think Windows Phone 7 was supposed to be WM6.1, if it was the OS would be ready a long time ago.
I apologize for my poor english, i hope you understand my thought.

X-On said:
About the Photon project, why do you think that it's dead?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have been told by peole inside Microsoft that WM6.5 will live on for no longer than two years, more likely only 18 months from now. I've heard no word that there would be a successor.

freyberry said:
I have been told by peole inside Microsoft that WM6.5 will live on for no longer than two years, more likely only 18 months from now. I've heard no word that there would be a successor.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Due to the limited versions numbers left between 6.5 and 7 it's not really assumed they will keep it going for too long. after 6.5.3 is gonna be officially released (this month?) my guess it that they're only fixing bugs and make it run on few more devices. in 1-2 years I don't think anymore OEMS will demand it and there'll be not a lot of phones with CPUs less than 1Ghz and such and they'll all run WP7. For MS it doesn't really make sense to keep it going any longer.....

WM6.5.x will be Windows Phone Starter Edition according to the latest rumors

Win_XP said:
WM6.5.x will be Windows Phone Starter Edition according to the latest rumors
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually it's 'Windows Phone Classic'
source

Any chance of a Photon leak? Would be nice project for Xda Dev.

some screens ...

dark_sith said:
Any chance of a Photon leak? Would be nice project for Xda Dev.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
We had old alpha versions. It was very unfinished, slow and buggy.
Cotulla has posted its screenshots above.

I think Photon looked good. They should at least have finished the work on it and released it instead of WM6.5.
Let those 1000 developers work on Windows Phone OS 7.0 and another 500 work on Photon, release Photon in mid 2009 as WM6.5 and Windows Phone OS 7.0 a year later.
That would have been perfect. Ah I'm dreaming...
Mamaich, any chance you could have another look at that dev document, whether third party applications get paused when sent to the background?
(i.e. whether or not developers are allowed to write programs like GPS tracking tools or FTP clients that can do their work in the background)

freyberry said:
Mamaich, any chance you could have another look at that dev document, whether third party applications get paused when sent to the background?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There is no such info in the docs I have. These are OEM docs, they have lots of information on WinPhone kernel, and only brief info on user apps.
I personally like WinPhone 7 kernel. It supports lots of different sensors, hardware accelerated Direct3D API (no OpenGL ES), multi-touch, almost all drivers are split in MDD+PDD model simplifying BSP development and ROM updates, redesigned security model.
Obviously we will hack WinPhone7 to enable running native apps (similar to "rooting" Androids that we have to do to install features like VPN client), and publish our own "native mode SDKs" here on XDA.

mamaich said:
There is no such info in the docs I have. These are OEM docs, they have lots of information on WinPhone kernel, and only brief info on user apps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks a lot. We will have to wait, then.
Obviously, WP7 will be hacked and we will be able to develop native and multitasking applications. But I seriously hope that big, important applications like GPS navigation programs won't be restricted from running in the background... I'll contact MS concerning that issue

If MS continue with the Photon project, it would be more of the same.They would continue to loss marketshare. It may be technically more advanced for the WM powerusers. Unfortunately, it is a small minority for the market. the fact that Apple could sell their dump phone (1st iPhone) in millions and continue to do so well tells us what appeals to the the mass market. MS really has no choice but to follow the path they are doing now if they are to remain relevant to the mobile space. Yes, it is risky but the alternative is certain to fail.

freyberry said:
Thanks a lot. We will have to wait, then.
Obviously, WP7 will be hacked and we will be able to develop native and multitasking applications. But I seriously hope that big, important applications like GPS navigation programs won't be restricted from running in the background... I'll contact MS concerning that issue
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I assume that Navigation programs would belong to that type of application that would receive a multitasking permission by MS.... If that story about the permissions is true!? But looking at the already exisiting Designed for Windows Mobile or Marketplace submission handbook this pretty much fits in with MS's way of handling 3rd party applications.

from the picture. are thet from Windows "Mobile" 7 ?
I like these UI. Microsoft should place these UI to WM6.x if WM7 was killed

MrWhisper said:
from the picture. are thet from Windows "Mobile" 7 ?
I like these UI. Microsoft should place these UI to WM6.x if WM7 was killed
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Me only like other screenshots I've seen with the new bottom bar (battery and signal indication + start button in the middle. I don't know if it's even real. Whatever, I'm gonna make it happen on WM 6.5.x! I already managed to change look of the taskbar. the bottom bar will be next project.

RustyGrom said:
Apparently pocketnow is in the process of moving to a new server and that article is on the new server. I can't see it either.
Microsoft is MASSIVELY different than Palm. In size, skills, and especially developer support and tools.
WebOS is a great OS but like you said, it's main failure is developer support. First, it's partially their fault due to the architecture. Until recently, you couldn't really write "native" apps using their SDK (people hacked it long ago but that's another story). Basically you were limited to little more than a web page with increased access to the phone. Meh. Also, WebOS has very minimal market penetration. Until recently it was only available on the US's #3 carrier and only later on select carriers abroad. Why develop software for a device that hardly anyone has? Apple was (as they always seem to do) able to drum up a large amout of support with very little reason to show for it. Microsoft will have a much more compelling story than Apple did with it's iPhone but will lack Apple's "it" factor (Jobs' RDF).
Palm is tiny. They don't have the money and patience like MS does to sustain a long, battle for the hearts and minds of phone users everywhere. Just look at what MS did with the Xbox. They didn't turn a profit on that unit until well into the Xbox 360. But did MS quit after the original Xbox was a failure? No, they tried harder. And now look.
Palm doesn't have the devloper tools. Yea, they can write plugins for Eclipse but they lack the ability to write extensive APIs and integrate them into Visual Studio. Do not underestimate the power of .net (figuratively and literally). Silverlight is fantastic as is XNA. If I can make a 'game' (although it sucked lol) anyone can.
No guts no glory. Microsoft is playing for keeps. I have no doubt that WP7 or WP8 will be successful.
FYI, Windows 7 is really Windows 6.1. And just like Longhorn, Photon was likely destined to be a failure. Vista was a necessary step to get to 7. The hatred for Vista is largely unfounded and 7 really is just Vista with the complaints fixed and a bit more modern UI.
We still don't know the story on app compat. It's running WinCE and it will support silverlight (.net) so there's little reason, other than wanting a complete clean break, that most old apps won't work. WinCE uses cab installs just like WM (because it is CE). I can write one app and deploy it to a bare WinCE 6.0 system or to WM6.5 (CE5). Maybe they will allow old stuff, maybe they won't. We won't know til next month. They very well may not have made this decision yet.
At one time the iPhone had 0 apps and WM had a **** ton. How long did it take for iPhone to build up a huge base of devs? I'm expecting a pretty solid selection of apps written for WP7 right from launch. Microsoft already has a lot of the key stuff onboard. I've got something in mind and will likely be doing one myself (something I started for WM6).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have to agree with all of the above, as well as my HD2, I have a Palm Pre and whilst I watched the WP7S presentation from MWC, I kept thinking - "that's like the Pre" Palm did a great job with the user interface on WebOS - it blows away the iPhone and Winmo for ease of use, but they did release an unfinished product (although they have managed to put a reasonable spin on the ongoing development by pitching "new features" into the mix every couple of months - things that should have been there day1).
MS are huge in comparison to Palm and provided they do not get bogged down with "big corp intertia", my guess is that the new OS will lauch complete with all bells and whistles intact.

Microsoft to WinMo 6.5 devices: You want WinPho 7? You can’t handle WinPho 7!

MobileCrunch
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Earlier this week we told you guys that Windows Mobile 6.5 was going to stick around after Windows Phone 7 hits the masses. It would even take on a new name — Windows Phone Classic. With everyone sticking around and playing nice at this party, you’d think that maybe current WinMo 6.5 handsets might get a little Windows Phone 7 love. Sorry to burst your bubble.
Microsoft Mobile Communications Business Director Aaron Woodman told CNET Asia, “I don’t know if any Windows Mobile 6.5 device today meets those specifications.” It sounds like your average Microsoft move: if you want the new software, you’ll also have to get new hardware because your old junk just isn’t gonna cut it, baby.
The new handsets are getting primo parts such as Qualcomm’s 1GHz Snapdragon processor (no Tegra, sorry). WinPho 7, being a fresh OS and more intensive than its predecessors, will undoubtedly need hardware resources that most 6.5 devices just don’t have, but don’t fret. Unlike everyone staying on Windows XP when Vista came out, upgrading to WinPho 7 out of WinMo 6.5 is definitely a move in the right direction. WinMo 6.5 is going to stick around for enterprise and developing countries, so unless you’re tied to the OS for those reasons, I’m sure you wouldn’t mind ditching your current 6.5 handset for a shiny new WinPho 7 device when it comes out.
​

Q&A: Microsoft on Windows Phone 7 Series
CNET Asia
BARCELONA--You didn't hear? Microsoft has at long last announced the Windows Phone 7 Series at Mobile World Congress. Forget whatever impressions you have of the current Windows Mobile operating system as the new 7 Series is unlike anything we've seen. The user interface has been completely reworked to feature live tiles, panoramic screens and enhanced gaming and music experiences. Microsoft knew it had to deliver something with pow at the annual mobile tradeshow, and it did deliver. While the first devices aren't expected until the year-end holiday season, there's still a lot to know about the new software.
The new Windows Phone 7 Series interface looks nothing like its predecessors'.
We sat down with the director of Mobile Communications Business, Aaron Woodman, the general manager for Asia in the Mobile Communications Business, Natasha Kwan, and the head of Mobile Services, Manish Ladha, to discuss everything, from the software to hardware and services.
Windows Phone 7 Series
What is the Windows Phone 7 Series and is there a particular significance with the number 7 or the new naming convention? Do you think the new name will confuse users?
Woodman: There were four big pieces of news yesterday [Monday]. The biggest was Windows Phone 7 Series and all the changes in the product around smart designs, integrated experiences and the Windows Phone hubs. The second was we brought Xbox Live and Zune to Windows Phone for the first time and we will take that internationally. The third was about a specific set of partners, mobile operators and OEMs that have committed to be early launch partners. The last piece of news was on the Q4 holiday time frame launch in time for the seasonal push.
We started changing the brand strategy with Windows Mobile (WM) 6.5. We announced the new brand as Windows Phone and the OS will remain consistent in terms of naming structure, which is Windows Mobile 6.5. That actually was significant for us because it was really the first time we wanted to market software directly to consumers. So we started Windows Phone and we really shipped two products--MyPhone and Windows Marketplace--which helped us start to have a direct relationship with the customer. That was a big step because prior to that, we simply shipped the operating system, while the OEMs and mobile operators had a relationship with the customer. So WM6.5 was a very small incremental step to start that process.
Windows Phone 7 Series is us front center trying to interact with the customers to solve their needs and ultimately taking accountability. I don't think it's confusing. I think it's a change. There are a lot of changes and this is just one of many. In terms of 7, there is no particular significance around 7. There is particular emphasis on Series knowing that we're going to have a selection of phones running a single version of the product.
What took Microsoft so long to publicly announce Windows Phone 7 Series?
Aaron Woodman: I don't know whether I would say it took us so long to announce it. We started to see a pretty significant change in the market place three or four years ago and that was driven by three things. The first was customer expectations. Customers have changed pretty dramatically over the last few years. If you looked at the prices of phones and data plans in the late 1990s and early 2000s, it was the businesses that could afford those. There wasn't a lot of end-consumers out there and usage of the product.
The second was technology--what was fundamentally possible on the device and at what price points. We started to see processors, chipsets and price points of data plans come down pretty dramatically. The third was competition. There are two types of competitors. Vertical competitors are people who have the ability to achieve quality entirely because they have the software and can achieve economies of scale to drive down component prices. And also people integrating data.
These three things came together at a time which brought a lot of emphasis on how we had to change to be competitive. That change started over two years ago with a shift in leadership. The result was a strategy behind the 7 Series. There are not a lot of companies that have the ability to step back from what I would argue was a successful strategy in the mobile phone space. Today, we still sell a ton of phones.
So I don't feel late with it. I always wished I had more innovations sooner, but I think we definitely stepped back, took our time and were willing to make some pretty dramatic changes.
Dramatic it is, since the interface is unlike anything we've seen before. But how do you intend to keep up with the competition since the first devices on the new OS aren't expected until Q4 2010?
Woodman: I think we have a very unique perspective on the business. What we've seen is that most of our competition focuses on just bringing applications to the forefront. They use a very classic design language that we pioneered with a lot of our work on the desktop. Our perspective puts us into a different place because we focus much more on the customer end of the tasks and the ability to complete what you want to do. We fully expect apps to participate in that new design language. That perspective, I would argue, is quite unique to the marketplace today, and that's what results in such a different look and feel of the product. And then we brought some differentiation that I would argue most phone or phone software providers simply don't have. Xbox Live is a social game backbone with a community of over 23 million. That's not something Nokia and Apple has. They need to have a partner to do that and that makes it more difficult to do deep integration.
I would also argue that the search engine and data behind that allows us to do a very unique implementation of things like maps, search and results. If you look at the competition, there is only one provider which has that same product and that's Google. If you look at the music space, we have the PC desktop software and the ability to think about the rich integration between the PC and the phone, and the only one that kind of does that today is Apple. If you start to add these pieces together, you can identify unique competitors like MyPhone, MobileMe and Ovi. As a whole , there are very few people who have these assets. What I can say about our competitors is that they are very respectful and have great products, but I feel very good about my ability to differentiate both in the short and long term.
Why would anyone want to buy a 7 Series device over an iPhone, Android, Nokia or a BlackBerry?
Woodman: I think there are two reasons, and probably the biggest reason is that people will be drawn to the design. I really do think that's the case when you start focusing on things like the task rather than the applications. I think people will be drawn to the fact that they are able to see their information quickly, easily and in a readable fashion. Also, we thought about the design in terms of the motion and transitions where you see things fly in and out in a very dynamic fashion.
The second thing people will be drawn to is the idea of taking the most common tasks and bringing them together. People are a great example where today you really get fragmented in the people experience. And we start to see some people do some very, very lightweight integration of social networking. We think we are going to deliver that in a way that is going to be quite unique.
What operating system does Windows Phone 7 Series run on? Is there a name for it?
Woodman: There's product brand and product line. The brand is Windows Phone and Windows Phone 7 Series is the product line. The OS will be Windows Phone OS 7.
Are the codes different from the current CE codes?
Woodman: Yes, all the software was revisited when we built Windows Phone 7 Series. Nobody felt like an incremental change was going to get us to a point where we felt we would be competitive over the next several years. Across the board, I don't think anyone felt restrained to stay inside our current development model. We'll come back again and talk about that at MIX (a Microsoft Web design/development event) in March.
How can manufacturers differentiate their products?
Aaron Woodman: You'll see mobile operators and OEMs bring differentiation into the software experience through unique access to some tools. That said, you won't see any user experience on top of Windows Phone 7 Series. You won't see any skinning and those sort of things. There is so much fragmentation where the ecosystem is kind of butting heads against the same innovation. You won't see any opportunity for any OEM or third-party app developer to take over the user experience.
Hardware
What has Microsoft done since the acquisition of Danger? Are there any developments on that front and what are the company's plans for Danger?
Woodman: What I will tell you is that the number one thing we got from Danger is really about people and their expertise in the mobile phone space. You'll see a lot of benefits here as we start to think about how to structure hardware and work with hardware partners.
Can you give a straight answer on whether Microsoft will release a consumer phone line?
Woodman: Just answer this straight? [Exasperated laughter] The answer is, I don't really know. And the reason I don't know is we have mobile as a strategy as a company and I will tell you the company is not aggressive in that marketplace. If we felt like there was an opportunity to do something really compelling and different, we would do it. That said, Microsoft has a partner-driven model and we believe in the benefits of partnerships.
What are the hardware specifications Microsoft is laying out for OEMs?
Woodman: We will provide the OS primarily to software developers in March. Every 7 Series device will have a Qualcomm chip. It will be touch-based. There won't be any non-touch, but that's not saying there won't be any keyboard devices, so they will all be touch and capacitive. There is a single aspect ratio. It will have Wi-Fi and GPS and other services which we will talk about soon.
Can the users of the current Windows Mobile software upgrade to the new one when it comes out?
Woodman: I don't know if any Windows Mobile 6.5 device today meets those specifications.
How many 7 Series devices can users expect this year?
Woodman: A billion! No, I don't know. You saw the announcement of the OEMs and it's really up to them in terms of how many devices they release in the different markets.
Windows Mobile 6.x
What happens now to Windows Mobile 6.5, or even 6.5.3? Are you going to completely phase out the current WinMo or will it continue with a different proposition?
Woodman: We don't have a specific timeline for Windows Mobile 6.5. It still has a lot of demand and value for both OEMs and customers today. The reality is that demand will determine the lifespan of Windows Mobile 6.5. So as long as OEMs and customers find value there, we'll continue to support and sell the product.
Are there going to be new devices coming out this year?
Kwan: Yes. When we announced Windows Mobile 6.5 in October last year, we said we will continue to have updates. WM6.5.3 is an update in terms of added feature functionality. In the WM6 platform, there were a lot of legacy applications that were written with the stylus in mind. So we have the magnifier to enhance the touch experience for these apps. We also anticipate 14 new devices out in Asia in the next six months.
Are the target user groups of Windows Mobile 6.5, 6.5.3 and Windows Phone 7 Series different?
Kwan: The target audience is similar. Internally, we call it the life maximizer, but that's really about the 23-35 age group. We are talking about a group of people who are actually quite settled in what they do. They are confident people. They have a lot of priorities to juggle at work and in personal lives. Yet, they also want their phone to be able to help them obtain information to make their decision.
With Windows Phone 7 Series, we have built the OS from the ground up. We really want to take a lot of accountability in the user experience. We want to ensure that we build greater quality and consistency with the phone and have an integrated experience. For WM6.5, it is going to be the platform where we allow OEM partners to continue to have their unique user interfaces. It is also a platform today where a lot of enterprise business apps are being built. More and more, we are seeing that the phone is critical for a lot of these enterprise apps. That's where WM6.5 continues to hold a lot of strength in a managed enterprise environment.
Services
Will the entire suite of Live services be available on Windows Phone 7 Series?
Ladha: We will continue to provide the existing experience even as we go into the 7 Series. It's not really classified as Windows Live, but within the People Hub, there will be updates coming from Windows Live or Facebook. Essentially, it's getting all your communication in one place.
Will there be Live services specific to 7 Series?
Ladha: Xbox Live and Zune are new to Windows Phone 7 Series. On WM6.5, you have Marketplace and MyPhone, and that will continue on for the 7 Series.
...

...
What kind of gaming experience can users look forward to on the 7 Series devices? And what do developers have to look out for?
Ladha: That's still evolving and we will be discussing that in the next conference. You can see your avatars on your Windows Phones. You will get the same experience as on the Xbox, but this question of which games and to what extent is still being defined.
Assuming I have an Xbox and some games, do I have to repurchase the games to play on the handset?
Ladha: The actual mechanics in terms of which games and the payment process will be disclosed at a later stage.
Which version of the IE browser is it?
Ladha: The IE browser on the 7 Series is not really IE7 or IE8 from the PC but is built specifically for the mobile device. Previously, on WM6.5, we had Pocket IE, so it's an evolution of that. But it also has a lot of elements from the IE7 and IE8 in terms of the experience.
What is the name of this IE browser?
Ladha: We are not disclosing that right now.
It was said during the press conference that every 7 Series device is a Zune. Does that mean there won't be anymore dedicated Zune media players?
Ladha: We won't be commenting on that right now. Each and every 7 Series device will have the entire Zune experience in terms of playback and user interface currently available on the Zune HD.
What's the portfolio of Live services?
Ladha: Hotmail, Messenger and Photos are the more popular ones. There's also Spaces, but it's not that prominent. SkyDrive is a very popular service on the PC. However, we have a similar service which is called MyPhone.
It seems there's some duplication of services. Does Microsoft plan to combine them moving forward?
Ladha: I won't call it duplication of features. It's just that on the phone, there is no Windows Live SkyDrive for mobile. Instead, it's MyPhone. So it's ultimately performing the same actions.

my opinion
just microsoft's illusions for forcing people to buying new crapgadgets just for playing with new os.

Sina™ said:
my opinion
microsoft's illusions for forcing people to buying new crapgadgets just for playing with new os.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
and that will only work with the help of those users who wana change from iphone or symbian and move to winmo7. i doubt power users of android and winmo 6.5.x will prefer much of this new limited environment of winmo7.
with what they think they r providing will be gr8 for end user. i can assure that winmo7 is gonna fall like vista.
winmo 5-6.5.x has never been a sexy OS. it only worked cause most of its users know its power of customization. thats the reason winmo has been living for soo long. without that i doubt they'll b able to sustain much. i may be turned out wrong but this is what i strongly feel.

that's a good news.
microsoft will fail again & people will switch to android or iphone.
but what if xda devs fail to port android to wm 6.xx devices?

Sina™ said:
that's a good news.
microsoft will fail again & people will switch to android or iphone.
but what if xda devs fail to port android to wm 6.xx devices?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i doubt xda will fail at portin androind. sooner or later they will. like they have done for hd and tp2.

That's right, WP7 might not for power user ... if and only if it is quite limited in terms of customization / tweaking, just like iPhone.
But, it is early to tell that WP7 will fail.
Why?
Because power user is much more limited in terms of numbers compared to regular users.
And dont forget people JUMPING platform from iPhone, Nokia, BB, Android, others to WP7 ... just to try something new or they think it is more attractive.
You cannot rule that out.
Mr. Makk said:
and that will only work with the help of those users who wana change from iphone or symbian and move to winmo7. i doubt power users of android and winmo 6.5.x will prefer much of this new limited environment of winmo7.
with what they think they r providing will be gr8 for end user. i can assure that winmo7 is gonna fall like vista.
winmo 5-6.5.x has never been a sexy OS. it only worked cause most of its users know its power of customization. thats the reason winmo has been living for soo long. without that i doubt they'll b able to sustain much. i may be turned out wrong but this is what i strongly feel.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

Buying a phone should not be enforcement.
I feel sorry for you if you were forced to buy a phone / gadget
There are choices as you said, iPhone, Android, Nokia, upcoming MeeGo or even Bada OS.
Sina™ said:
my opinion
just microsoft's illusions for forcing people to buying new crapgadgets just for playing with new os.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

i dont want new gadgets every year, i want strong 3rd party support like iphone.

There is no WM7

Please be careful in your terminology.
There is NO WM7.
I would be for WM7 -- a win32/directx (like wm6.5) version of Windows Mobile running on the CE 6.0 kernel. This was developed (mostly) then scraped about a year ago.
Now we have wp7. This is not Windows Mobile. It's not called it, it's not compatible with anything from WM, it has no characteristics of the Windows Mobile products; it is a completely different product line.
Perhaps Microsoft will someday release a WM7 for the enterprise community. Again, for me this would mean a Win32 api based system built on CE 6.0 instead of 5.2. That is what we all wanted (as developers) for the past two years. A Windows Mobile with a desktop-like kernel.
I like wp7, but ultimately it is NOT wm7.
Calling wp7 wm7 is like calling a set top media player a Windows PC.
Rob

its actually wp7 now, they dropped the "series".

leemoss84 said:
its actually wp7 now, they dropped the "series".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Lol. Noted, thanks.
Rob

Exactly my thoughts. I really wish Microsoft would release WM7 with the ability to run WP7 apps and legacy apps along with the more modern CE6 core with all the multitasking and customization of current Winmo.

Guys, it's exactly wm7 you have talked about, just locked and with a new UI. Really nothing special. It is running on CE6, has a lot of components as WM6.5 has. I saw the binaries and I can tell that most of MS applications are native applications coded in C++ and only thirdy-party applications will use .NET code or how you or MS like to call it. I'm sure that we will see the paltform somehow cracked and able to run other native code and legacy applications. It's just a matter of time.

Well reading that was pointless
Would have read better saying no wm8 lol

Well, calling it WM7 ties it to all of the negative connotations of Windows Mobile, so it's better to call it something new so there's a "RESET" in the public mind. Windows Mobile has a very bad reputation in the public mind...you DO realize it had fail written all over don't you? MS had to escape from it.

xdmcdmc said:
Guys, it's exactly wm7 you have talked about, just locked and with a new UI. Really nothing special. It is running on CE6, has a lot of components as WM6.5 has. I saw the binaries and I can tell that most of MS applications are native applications coded in C++ and only thirdy-party applications will use .NET code or how you or MS like to call it. I'm sure that we will see the paltform somehow cracked and able to run other native code and legacy applications. It's just a matter of time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It doesn't matter 1 bit if under it all it's CE 6 with Win32 if we as developers can't use that. This is not WM7, so we should not call it that.
I, as a user, have over $300 invested in Windows Mobile applications that I've purchased. The most significant of which will most likely NEVER get ported to WP7 because it won't support native code at the application developer level.
Then there's my massive investment in Visual Studio 2008 (yes, and I'm very pissed that 2008 won't get dev tools for wp7). For the kids and phone users out there who don't understand why -- developers spend $1000+ per computer to pay for Visual Studio Pro. Moving to VS2010 calls for another $1000. I just got 2008 last year. Windows Mobile development kits worked across many versions of VS without requiring expensive and unnecessary upgrades all the time.
I stuck it out, waiting for WM7, because the promise of CE 6.0 brought real multitasking, a desktop like memory model, and essentially, modernity to Windows Mobile.
I have no interest in .net. I don't see the point to making a 1ghz chip behave like a 500 mhz chip. C# seems suited for simple apps and I guess, depending on your app, you may want to write in managed code. However, for a lot of heavier-weight applications (read: ones with significant custom database needs, web browsers, well performing games) the developer needs to manage memory directly. Pointer math, while harder to code, is ideal for devices and their limited resources. IPhone runs native code, making it, gasp, the technically superior product now.
The problem now is that what developers were remaining are now leaving. The users that are left are also leaving or planning to stick to 6.5 until an IPhone development path is set out. We stayed loyal to WM only to find out that we just should have switched.
WP7 seems to say to the remaining Windows Mobile users "You aren't the users we wanted to keep."
Rob

RobRedbeard said:
It doesn't matter 1 bit if under it all it's CE 6 with Win32 if we as developers can't use that. This is not WM7, so we should not call it that.
I, as a user, have over $300 invested in Windows Mobile applications that I've purchased. The most significant of which will most likely NEVER get ported to WP7 because it won't support native code at the application developer level.
Then there's my massive investment in Visual Studio 2008 (yes, and I'm very pissed that 2008 won't get dev tools for wp7). For the kids and phone users out there who don't understand why -- developers spend $1000+ per computer to pay for Visual Studio Pro. Moving to VS2010 calls for another $1000. I just got 2008 last year. Windows Mobile development kits worked across many versions of VS without requiring expensive and unnecessary upgrades all the time.
I stuck it out, waiting for WM7, because the promise of CE 6.0 brought real multitasking, a desktop like memory model, and essentially, modernity to Windows Mobile.
I have no interest in .net. I don't see the point to making a 1ghz chip behave like a 500 mhz chip. C# seems suited for simple apps and I guess, depending on your app, you may want to write in managed code. However, for a lot of heavier-weight applications (read: ones with significant custom database needs, web browsers, well performing games) the developer needs to manage memory directly. Pointer math, while harder to code, is ideal for devices and their limited resources. IPhone runs native code, making it, gasp, the technically superior product now.
The problem now is that what developers were remaining are now leaving. The users that are left are also leaving or planning to stick to 6.5 until an IPhone development path is set out. We stayed loyal to WM only to find out that we just should have switched.
WP7 seems to say to the remaining Windows Mobile users "You aren't the users we wanted to keep."
Rob
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why can't you just use VS 2010 express tools? The WP7 dev tools are free.

Kloc said:
Why can't you just use VS 2010 express tools? The WP7 dev tools are free.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good point. I can run the express tools. Honestly, I'm not yet sure on what differences, if any, will exists between VS1010 Pro and Express when it comes to WP7. I will get the RC tonight and begin testing.
My point still remains, that this isn't the product that we were all waiting around for. It's a great product, exciting in many ways, but it isn't the successor to WM 6.5 -- it seems to do utterly different things, utterly differently.
For users and developers invested in WM 6.5 there is a 0% upgrade path. It completely nullifies that investment. Nothing will flow forward, thus I think it really is correct that MS gave it a completely different name.
The least they should do is create a WM 6.x "panel" with a virtual, or somehow sandboxed FS for us to run our tons of legacy apps in.
Rob

RobRedbeard said:
Good point. I can run the express tools. Honestly, I'm not yet sure on what differences, if any, will exists between VS1010 Pro and Express when it comes to WP7. I will get the RC tonight and begin testing.
My point still remains, that this isn't the product that we were all waiting around for. It's a great product, exciting in many ways, but it isn't the successor to WM 6.5 -- it seems to do utterly different things, utterly differently.
For users and developers invested in WM 6.5 there is a 0% upgrade path. It completely nullifies that investment. Nothing will flow forward, thus I think it really is correct that MS gave it a completely different name.
The least they should do is create a WM 6.x "panel" with a virtual, or somehow sandboxed FS for us to run our tons of legacy apps in.
Rob
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ya but there is an important thing to keep in mind, now it is about the look and feel of WP7, even though the applications written in .NET CF will not work out of the box, but 90% of the code will! infact you can use the same classes and connect them to the new GUI, as simple as that

I still don't understand why they locked it down. Even if it is marketed towards the general public how would they know how to use a file explorer anyhow? Not like their gonna mess something up because they don't know how to use it!

RobRedbeard said:
Please be careful in your terminology.
There is NO WM7.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ONLY ZUUL!
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I get the name change from Windows Mobile to Windows phone. But I don't get it why they also renamed 6.5 to Windows phone.....

Wp7 vs android vs iphone vs...

We have been getting off topic in the advanrtages of WP7 or andriod and iphone. So let's take the discussion to one thread with an all out brawl between the three
With the recent announcement from apple I think Microsoft will have no choice but to throw everything they have at WP7 coming out the gates in order to compete. I think Apple's annoucement of a gamer community was a real low blow and Microsoft's xbox live offering but atleast xbox live can span platforms for right now that keeps an advantage.
vangrieg said:
Me, I love to see things escalating in this market - it just smells great phones! Redmond must be pissed off now - I suspect Apple just stole their show. I suspected something like iPhone's new approach to multitasking in WP7, there are hints this was the plan. I don't feel like its the end of the world for them, they have a lot of patience and recently decided to invest a billion dollars into their mobile platform. Let's not forget that there are advantages and disadvantages to being the first mover, and Microsoft has a lot of information about where others succeeded and failed. Remember XBox? they came late to the party Sony was ruling, but it's all different now.
As regards Android, I wouldn't expect dramatic changes from this side now. It's a successful platform, there's no sense of urgency, and Google usually dramatically reduces investment after initial rapid development. Political issues will prevent platform unification and radical changes in their policies towards OEMs, and there's just too much talk about freedom and openness and all that to reverse the course even a little bit. Especially given that not everyone even sees dangers here.
It's going to be a great year.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree with all of that. The more competition there is out there the harder all the companies have to work and that is always a plus for the consumer. I predict alot more out of WP7 just because of these announcements from Apple. As far as google goes, the platform is already so open what more can they add? It's about to the point where the only thing they can do is take things away.

I agree. I strongly disapprove of Apple, but this was a slick move. As far as multitasking goes; I always thought Microsoft would probably bring multitasking in an update down the road. My guess is now they are just going to haul ass and get it out with the release. But I still don;t think it will be full 100% multitasking, more like iPhone OS 4.
A big worry I have is that Microsoft will now hurry along with things trying to make WP7 better, and rush it too much. But they still definitely have time to fix some things.
I also agree about Android. My guess is that most of what is done with Android will be done through OEM's and carriers. If phones like the Droid get advertised for the phone's specific qualities, I think Android will continue to see success. Android apps are really picking up, as is the number of devs.
So yeah, when it comes down to it we the consumers will likely have a good (but with some possible pains) year.

Google have already announced that they are slowing down development of the core OS as it's stable, and will concentrate on applications. The whole point of the platform is being a showcase for Google services, and I'm sure we will not only see new apps for Android itself but also ports to other platforms.

Well I don't think Microsoft need to push full multitasking anyway. I believe get letting some services run like how iPhone 4.0 is going to do it is a great way to do it. Why have the whole app run in the background when you just need what you don't actually have to look at run. This could be great for navigation. Still give you turn by turn in the background without have to show the map when you want to look at something else.
I don't think Microsoft will rush a broken SO out the door this time. They've come a long way and Windows 7 prove it. By far, the most complete and stable OS to hit the market for them. I bet they make sure WP7 does the same.

vangrieg said:
Google have already announced that they are slowing down development of the core OS as it's stable, and will concentrate on applications. The whole point of the platform is being a showcase for Google services, and I'm sure we will not only see new apps for Android itself but also ports to other platforms.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've seen some TV's will be powered by android in the future. I think spreading across platforms is really what Google was looking for.

Kloc said:
Well I don't think Microsoft need to push full multitasking anyway. I believe get letting some services run like how iPhone 4.0 is going to do it is a great way to do it. Why have the whole app run in the background when you just need what you don't actually have to look at run. This could be great for navigation. Still give you turn by turn in the background without have to show the map when you want to look at something else.
I don't think Microsoft will rush a broken SO out the door this time. They've come a long way and Windows 7 prove it. By far, the most complete and stable OS to hit the market for them. I bet they make sure WP7 does the same.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well I don't think you're trending MS correctly...XP was great and stable for it's time but it was a fixed version of windows 98. Windows 7 is a fixed version of Vista. MS usually needs a meh product to build upon to actually make a good one, or sometimes 2 meh projects like IE 7 & 8...but IE 9 looks pretty good so far if they can get it out the door within the year anyway.
You could make the arguement that the precedessor of wp7 is the Zune though...but MS is bringing that Zune experience and intregrating it with phone services, it's a way bigger conceptual step than 98 -> XP or Vista -> 7. We'll see how this all plays out as far as stability is concerned though.
I've seen some TV's will be powered by android in the future. I think spreading across platforms is really what Google was looking for.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That much is obvious...it's google's business model...produce free stuff, get people to use it...get as much data as you can from the user through their auto-opt-in policies to better target you with Ads. TV is a good market for google to target custom ads to users. But it's this same philosophy that causes me to dislike Google. However, I think that I'd preferr if Google showed me commercials I'm interested in rather than just watching whatever crap commericals the networks felt like showing me...but that's way way in the future, when set-top boxes are more just internet DRM'd devices.

gom99 said:
Well I don't think you're trending MS correctly...XP was great and stable for it's time but it was a fixed version of windows 98. Windows 7 is a fixed version of Vista.
MS usually needs a meh product to build upon to actually make a good one, or sometimes 2 meh projects like IE 7 & 8...but IE 9 looks pretty good so far if they can get it out the door within the year anyway.
You could make the arguement that the precedessor of wp7 is the Zune though...but MS is bringing that Zune experience and intregrating it with phone services. We'll see how this all plays out as far as stability is concerned though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I see what you're saying. What I'm trying to put across is that MS is realizing that usability and fluidity is what the market is going towards and away from strict functionality. They are focusing more on ways to make sure programs released for their OS work better because usually when software doesn't work now a days especially on a phone OS the user contributes it to being a bad phone and not just bad software. I think they understand this now and are going to make it happen right out the gate and not have to learn from past mistakes like they did with previous platforms. Of course they'll have to add on to WP7 in their next iterations and we will probably say that's what WP7 should have looked like to begin with but we will continue to say that to anything with an update that adds features. I liked Vista when I used it more so then XP and now I like 7 even better. As long as they are taking strides forward I'm a happy camper along for the ride.

gom99 said:
Well I don't think you're trending MS correctly...XP was great and stable for it's time but it was a fixed version of windows 98. Windows 7 is a fixed version of Vista. MS usually needs a meh product to build upon to actually make a good one, or sometimes 2 meh projects like IE 7 & 8...but IE 9 looks pretty good so far if they can get it out the door within the year anyway.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I love it when people who have no idea what they're talking about, try and talk anyway.
1. There were three versions of Windows between Windows 98 and XP: Windows 98 Second Edition, Windows ME, and Windows 2000. Windows 2000 was an exemplary OS, Windows 98SE was a good OS (9.x kernel made everything it touched subpar imo), and Windows ME was a pathetic OS.
2. Vista was fine. The only reason Vista was terrible was because people plugged XP (XP was NT5.1, for reference) drivers into Vista (Vista was NT6.0) and then gnashed their teeth when the OS didn't work properly.
Major kernel revision, you should be praising M$ that the drivers worked at all.
And then there was the fact that Vista was a very forward-thinking OS, and the average consumer-grade hardware at the time wasn't built to maximize Vista's potential. Once your hardware was adequate, Vista out-performed XP. Sure 7 is better than Vista, but that's not the point.
3. IE8 is a good browser. I use it on some of my PCs, and I have no complaints. Obviously there is some issue with standards compliance, but IE8 is a step in the right direction. If the web developers know how to properly take advantage of IE8's doctype sniffing, it's very close to standards complaint. There are a few things it doesn't implement, but for the most part it's pretty good.

Spike15 said:
I love it when people who have no idea what they're talking about, try and talk anyway.
1. There were three versions of Windows between Windows 98 and XP: Windows 98 Second Edition, Windows ME, and Windows 2000. Windows 2000 was an exemplary OS, Windows 98SE was a good OS (9.x kernel made everything it touched subpar imo), and Windows ME was a pathetic OS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sigh, if you're going to insult me at least do it correctly.
Windows 2000 was a replacement for Windows NT so it was more business related than general consumer related. Instead of Windows 2000 replacing Windows 98 they released Windows 98 2nd Edition. Yes Windows ME was supposed to replace 98 but it was a failure, but that's just another one of MSes blunders on the way to XP.
XP united the fragmentation of the 2000 line and the ME line. But yes, I guess you're right XP was built from things they learned in 2000, failures of ME, and things people liked from their flagship consumer product at the time which was 98.
Spike15 said:
2. Vista was fine. The only reason Vista was terrible was because people plugged XP (XP was NT5.1, for reference) drivers into Vista (Vista was NT6.0) and then gnashed their teeth when the OS didn't work properly.
Major kernel revision, you should be praising M$ that the drivers worked at all.
And then there was the fact that Vista was a very forward-thinking OS, and the average consumer-grade hardware at the time wasn't built to maximize Vista's potential. Once your hardware was adequate, Vista out-performed XP. Sure 7 is better than Vista, but that's not the point.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Vista bombed because MS didn't coordinate well with driver manufacturers and it was a buggy launch. And it was a fairly big shift from XP, the shift from vista to 7 is less significant, vista drivers tend to work fine in 7 where as that's not the case in xp -> vista.
Also Vista was a fairly bloated OS. It's memory consumption of core services was higher than windows 7. I can't even imagine Vista running on a netbook.
Vista eventually became a pretty good experience a few months down the line, but it's reputation was sown in, and it was still bloated.
Spike15 said:
3. IE8 is a good browser. I use it on s
ome of my PCs, and I have no complaints. Obviously there is some issue with standards compliance, but IE8 is a step in the right direction. If the web developers know how to properly take advantage of IE8's doctype sniffing, it's very close to standards complaint. There are a few things it doesn't implement, but for the most part it's pretty good.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The differences in browsers isn't as significant to the time when ie6 became very dated and things like opera and ff were clearly better for a time. Things are a bit closer, but IE8's javascript support is pretty lacking if you look at benchmarks.
ie9 looks to be much faster than ie8 and it's adding more hardware support for GPUs. Also if ie9 adopts Pivot's zooming scroll bar, that will be an amazing feature.

gom99 said:
Sigh, if you're going to insult me at least do it correctly.
Windows 2000 was a replacement for Windows NT so it was more business related than general consumer related. Instead of Windows 2000 replacing Windows 98 they released Windows 98 2nd Edition. Yes Windows ME was supposed to replace 98 but it was a failure, but that's just another one of MSes blunders on the way to XP.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Windows 2000 was the beginning of the end of Windows 9.x. Sure they released ME after 2000, but 2000 was really the end of Microsoft's dedication to 9.x (as evidenced by ME's performance...).
The only reason that it took so long for the market to shift was because driver manufacturers were deeply entrenched in 9.x and didn't want to develop for the new model that NT presented (which was a lot more restrictive since Windows NT was actually a proper, multi-user, hybrid kernel operating system rather than a single-user, monolithic kernel operating system which allow most (all?) drivers to run in kernel mode.
Windows ME failed (or, at least that's the story) for roughly the same reason. It was an attempt at reforming the Windows 9.x driver model, but instead people just stuck Windows 98SE drivers in it.
I've seen quite a few consumer desktops that were sold with Windows 2000. They're not so plentiful, but they exist, and most of the people who had them swear by them.
gom99 said:
XP united the fragmentation of the 2000 line and the ME line. But yes, I guess you're right XP was built from things they learned in 2000, failures of ME, and things people liked from their flagship consumer product at the time which was 98.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There's not really much different between XP and 2000.
gom99 said:
Vista bombed because MS didn't coordinate well with driver manufacturers and it was a buggy launch. And it was a fairly big shift from XP, the shift from vista to 7 is less significant, vista drivers tend to work fine in 7 where as that's not the case in xp -> vista.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
While what you're saying about driver manufacturers may be true, I disagree that Vista was a "buggy launch". I replaced XP with Vista (64-bit at that!) the moment it went gold, and never looked back...never had any serious problems with performance or compatibility either.
Now, I have to quantify that. I was running a new PC that was relatively top-of-the-line with hardware from big name manufacturers. Therefore, the driver support was good and the hardware was of the calibre that Vista was designed to capitalize on.
I ran Vista until Windows 7 RC, and in that time had 4 crashes:
3 BSoDs from nVidia drivers (graphics drivers still run in kernel mode... : ( )
1 full system lock-up from a hard drive crash (!)
You can't blame those on the operating system.
gom99 said:
The differences in browsers isn't as significant to the time when ie6 became very dated and things like opera and ff were clearly better for a time. Things are a bit closer, but IE8's javascript support is pretty lacking if you look at benchmarks.
ie9 looks to be much faster than ie8 and it's adding more hardware support for GPUs. Also if ie9 adopts Pivot's zooming scroll bar, that will be an amazing feature.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'll admit that I'm psyched about IE9 -- Microsoft looks like they're fully throwing themselves behind their browser for the first time since IE4 or 5.
As for IE8's JavaScript benchmarks, I don't consider poor benchmarking (and I'll admit that it's poor benchmarking) a lack of support per se. It's still lamentable, but IE in general has a lot more compatibility code than other browsers...trying to maintain/achieve standards compliance while still fully supporting "quirks" mode...
-_-

Spike15 said:
Windows 2000 was the beginning of the end of Windows 9.x. Sure they released ME after 2000, but 2000 was really the end of Microsoft's dedication to 9.x (as evidenced by ME's performance...).
...
There's not really much different between XP and 2000.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well I don't know about beginning of the end, since it was meant to run parrallel. Originally they wanted 2000 to replace 98, but it wasn't "there" for consumers yet, so it just replaced NT.
And the differences between 2000 and XP have to do with the consumer items packaged allong with XP as well as full support for things like gaming and such. Since XP was the merger of consumer and business users.
Spike15 said:
While what you're saying about driver manufacturers may be true, I disagree that Vista was a "buggy launch". I replaced XP with Vista (64-bit at that!) the moment it went gold, and never looked back...never had any serious problems with performance or compatibility either.
Now, I have to quantify that. I was running a new PC that was relatively top-of-the-line with hardware from big name manufacturers. Therefore, the driver support was good and the hardware was of the calibre that Vista was designed to capitalize on.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Even with a top of the line computer if you had the nvidia chipset on your mb, getting Vista at launch was not a good ordeal. The nvidia chipset is no small isolated chipset either. Not every single hardware configuration failed, and some machines did have a good experience with Vista at launch. But a significant portion did not, which cause a bad stigma for Vista.
On top of that, it took significantly more memory just to run a barebones version than XP. I forget the hard numbers, but I think Windows 7 takes half as much ram as vista did.
Spike15 said:
I'll admit that I'm psyched about IE9 -- Microsoft looks like they're fully throwing themselves behind their browser for the first time since IE4 or 5.
As for IE8's JavaScript benchmarks, I don't consider poor benchmarking (and I'll admit that it's poor benchmarking) a lack of support per se. It's still lamentable, but IE in general has a lot more compatibility code than other browsers...trying to maintain/achieve standards compliance while still fully supporting "quirks" mode...
-_-
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Click to collapse
IE9's success will be determined by how quickly they can release it. Firefox is already working on hardware acceleration too. IE is playing catchup as far as javascript, html5, and css standards are concerened. But if they can get that worked out, and get their hardware acceleration worked out. Extra features with a more pivot like style, and get it out of the door by the end of the year, they'll have a really good product at a really good time.

gom99 said:
Even with a top of the line computer if you had the nvidia chipset on your mb, getting Vista at launch was not a good ordeal. The nvidia chipset is no small isolated chipset either. Not every single hardware configuration failed, and some machines did have a good experience with Vista at launch. But a significant portion did not, which cause a bad stigma for Vista.
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Click to collapse
I had an nVidia chipset, as I had in most of my PCs up until my last one (Intel chipset -- core i7 x58 system), and I had no problems other than those specified.
I think that with operating systems like these though, the first major kernel revision obviously is not going to do as well as the second. With the first you have a major change under the hood, and the end user doesn't really understand why they can't just stuff in their old drivers and be good to go.
Plus, hardware manufacturers are still learning how to properly code for the new model.
Once the second revision comes out, everyone has it figured out. It's not really a fault of the operating system manufacturer, but more a necessary evil of the way things work.

Spike15 said:
I had an nVidia chipset, as I had in most of my PCs up until my last one (Intel chipset -- core i7 x58 system), and I had no problems other than those specified.
I think that with operating systems like these though, the first major kernel revision obviously is not going to do as well as the second. With the first you have a major change under the hood, and the end user doesn't really understand why they can't just stuff in their old drivers and be good to go.
Plus, hardware manufacturers are still learning how to properly code for the new model.
Once the second revision comes out, everyone has it figured out. It's not really a fault of the operating system manufacturer, but more a necessary evil of the way things work.
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Click to collapse
http://arstechnica.com/hardware/new...it-paints-picture-of-buggy-nvidia-drivers.ars

M$ didn't coordinate with Driver manufacturers?!?! Come on!! It came out in beta MONTHS before the OS was even released ANYONE could download and try it. The manufacturers are lazy, simple. Is it no surprise that W7 has taken off, because the drivers for vista dont need much change so therefore manufacturers will do it but a large kernel change and manufacturers twiddle their thumbs and blame M$.
I used Vista for years and never had a problem.
Back to the phones!
In order of greatness
Android > iPhone > WM6.5 > WM6.1 > WP7
Android has the best mix of features with eye candy, and WM6.x is... well... windows 3.1 on a phone.

Jamoflaw said:
M$ didn't coordinate with Driver manufacturers?!?! Come on!! It came out in beta MONTHS before the OS was even released ANYONE could download and try it. The manufacturers are lazy, simple. Is it no surprise that W7 has taken off, because the drivers for vista dont need much change so therefore manufacturers will do it but a large kernel change and manufacturers twiddle their thumbs and blame M$.
I used Vista for years and never had a problem.
Back to the phones!
In order of greatness
Android > iPhone > WM6.5 > WM6.1 > WP7
Android has the best mix of features with eye candy, and WM6.x is... well... windows 3.1 on a phone.
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Click to collapse
You're putting the iphone that high really? Why do you like it? It's fluid sure but its like a fisher price toy in terms of what you can do with it. It's a program launcher with apps. The next release does look better with all the things they are adding but as of now it sucks if you have any ounce of nerd in you.
I'm not sure where WP7 sits as of now because it's not out yet but I've used Android and I currently use WM 6.1 here's my line-up.
WM 6.x>Android>iPhone

Kloc said:
You're putting the iphone that high really? Why do you like it? It's fluid sure but its like a fisher price toy in terms of what you can do with it. It's a program launcher with apps. The next release does look better with all the things they are adding but as of now it sucks if you have any ounce of nerd in you.
I'm not sure where WP7 sits as of now because it's not out yet but I've used Android and I currently use WM 6.1 here's my line-up.
WM 6.x>Android>iPhone
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Click to collapse
You have to preface that ranking saying "for advanced users". Even just looking at the side-by-side they have on engadget...wm 6.5 dominates that considering that a few of their "facts" are just taking into account wm 6.5 stock.
But I do like that the iphone added some nice features, even though some of them are hypocritical, but that's apple for you. From what Jobs was saying, I thought Folders were too complicated, and people just liked swiping their fingers through 100 applications.

I wouldn't put iPhone > WM6.5. They're different, though iPhone keeps getting better, WM6.5 not.
Android, of course, beats them all.
Android >> iPhone = WM6.5 > WM6.1 = WP7
Since this thread is going too off-topic, I want to have my own, for my comparison. See here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=6132000#post6132000
Sethos II said:
Here's my comparison between WP7, iPhone OS, Android and WM6.5!
It's been about time that somebody did it.
It's a work in progress, I will add and update things.
Feel free to post your comments, I will consider them for updates to the chart.
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

gom99 said:
Well I don't think you're trending MS correctly...XP was great and stable for it's time but it was a fixed version of windows 98. Windows 7 is a fixed version of Vista. MS usually needs a meh product to build upon to actually make a good one, or sometimes 2 meh projects like IE 7 & 8...but IE 9 looks pretty good so far if they can get it out the door within the year anyway.
You could make the arguement that the precedessor of wp7 is the Zune though...but MS is bringing that Zune experience and intregrating it with phone services, it's a way bigger conceptual step than 98 -> XP or Vista -> 7. We'll see how this all plays out as far as stability is concerned though.
That much is obvious...it's google's business model...produce free stuff, get people to use it...get as much data as you can from the user through their auto-opt-in policies to better target you with Ads. TV is a good market for google to target custom ads to users. But it's this same philosophy that causes me to dislike Google. However, I think that I'd preferr if Google showed me commercials I'm interested in rather than just watching whatever crap commericals the networks felt like showing me...but that's way way in the future, when set-top boxes are more just internet DRM'd devices.
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A fixed version of win 98 ?? They dont even run the same file system. They are so different. XP was built off of 2000

ilmar72 said:
A fixed version of win 98 ?? They dont even run the same file system. They are so different. XP was built off of 2000
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"Multi-user" and "hybrid kernel" would've been the two biggest changes I would've selected for "they don't even [...]", but to each his or her own...

Spike15 said:
"Multi-user" and "hybrid kernel" would've been the two biggest changes I would've selected for "they don't even [...]", but to each his or her own...
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I'd have to go with you on that one. Win ME and below use hybrid 16/32 kernal while NT+ uses 32. That's a pretty significant change.

Microsoft Germany: WM 6.5 is here to stay

Can you smell Microsoft getting smarter:
---
Q
Microsoft originally intended to keep WM6 alive as Windows Phone Classic. Will this still be done now that WME has been announced? If yes, for how long?
A: Windows Phone 7 and Windows Mobile 6.5 will coexist in the market for some time. Windows Mobile provides many advanced enterprise features that large customers rely on in managed environments.
---
More here:
http://tamsppc.tamoggemon.com/2010/07/07/microsofts-frank-prengel-on-windows-mobile/

Old news is old

Why would Microsoft say anything else. If they said they would ditch Windows Mobile entirely to October, people might go out and buy iPhones instead. Can't have that!

Windcape said:
Why would Microsoft say anything else. If they said they would ditch Windows Mobile entirely to October, people might go out and buy iPhones instead. Can't have that!
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Did you know that support for Windows 2000 ends on Tuesday? Microsoft isn't one to leave their enterprise customers hanging. No reason to believe that they aren't being sincere with that promise.

Notice he specifically referenced enterprise, nothing about supporting WM in the consumer space. Seems to me they are now trying to position WM as purely an enterprise OS and are ignoring the (still) millions of non-enterprise owners of WM phones.
Lets not kid ourselves, after WP7 launches you wont see any new consumer WM devices or support, only devices geared for enterprise use like rugged WM devices. Right now they are just marking time, as Windcape said if MS came out and said they are ditching WM in October their sales would plummet even faster than its currently doing.

efjay said:
Notice he specifically referenced enterprise, nothing about supporting WM in the consumer space. Seems to me they are now trying to position WM as purely an enterprise OS and are ignoring the (still) millions of non-enterprise owners of WM phones.
Lets not kid ourselves, after WP7 launches you wont see any new consumer WM devices or support, only devices geared for enterprise use like rugged WM devices. Right now they are just marking time, as Windcape said if MS came out and said they are ditching WM in October their sales would plummet even faster than its currently doing.
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WM has never been positioned as a consumer OS. It's always driven me insane as I'm a "consumer" user but that's the truth. Enterprises have need for more than just ruggedized devices, some use them for general purpose email, etc. Also, WP7 doesn't support chinese, etc so they will continue to launch new devices in those markets. Of course what really matters is the OEMs. You will probably only see a few new devices launched and they will be enterprise focused (stuff like the TP2) since they won't make any money selling consumer WM6 devices with WP7 sitting right there next to it.
The fact is, we non-enterprise WM users are a pretty small minority.

RustyGrom said:
WM has never been positioned as a consumer OS. It's always driven me insane as I'm a "consumer" user but that's the truth. Enterprises have need for more than just ruggedized devices, some use them for general purpose email, etc. Also, WP7 doesn't support chinese, etc so they will continue to launch new devices in those markets. Of course what really matters is the OEMs. You will probably only see a few new devices launched and they will be enterprise focused (stuff like the TP2) since they won't make any money selling consumer WM6 devices with WP7 sitting right there next to it.
The fact is, we non-enterprise WM users are a pretty small minority.
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Click to collapse
In all the years I have owned a WM device I have never seen it promoted as solely an enterprise OS and NOT being suitable for consumer use, in fact wasnt 6.5 promoted as being suitable for work AND consumer use? Its also hard to believe that the bulk of WM sales are to the enterprise, I doubt very much enterprises put in large orders for devices like the HD2, Diamond, Omnia. And if that really is the case they should stop direct sales of WM devices to consumers, why sell a phone which is advertised with entertainment features like the HD2 was?

efjay said:
In all the years I have owned a WM device I have never seen it promoted as solely an enterprise OS and NOT being suitable for consumer use, in fact wasnt 6.5 promoted as being suitable for work AND consumer use? Its also hard to believe that the bulk of WM sales are to the enterprise, I doubt very much enterprises put in large orders for devices like the HD2, Diamond, Omnia. And if that really is the case they should stop direct sales of WM devices to consumers, why sell a phone which is advertised with entertainment features like the HD2 was?
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Click to collapse
In more recent times, yes. But 6.5 was just a stop-gap til they could get WP7 into the market. It's still very much targeted at business use. I remember all of the marketing for the Sprint Mogul was solely business oriented. They completely ignored media, etc.
So yes, those devices were targeted at consumers but that wasn't Microsoft doing it. Even look at the ad campaign for WM6.5... it was all about taking office apps with you on the go. Yea, that's exactly what consumers care most about. WM has always been enterprise/business 1st, everyone else 2nd. So not solely for enterprise but that was the clear priority.
But getting back to the original point... MS will continue to support WM as it is today for the next few years at least. Will the OEMs make new devices? Probably in foreign markets and some business focused devices in Europe and the US. But pretty much any device that most people will want to use will be WP7. Once WP7 picks up more enterprise capabilities, I would expect it to shift.

RustyGrom said:
Did you know that support for Windows 2000 ends on Tuesday? Microsoft isn't one to leave their enterprise customers hanging. No reason to believe that they aren't being sincere with that promise.
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Click to collapse
Microsoft released 3 new version of their server-OS product line (Server 2003, 2008, 2008 R2).
I think t's fair to call the support after ten years. I don't think Windows Mobile 1.0 is supported either today!

efjay said:
Lets not kid ourselves, after WP7 launches you wont see any new consumer WM devices or support, only devices geared for enterprise use like rugged WM devices.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Most probably we wouldn't see great new WM devices regardless of what MS thought about it.

Windcape said:
Microsoft released 3 new version of their server-OS product line (Server 2003, 2008, 2008 R2).
I think t's fair to call the support after ten years. I don't think Windows Mobile 1.0 is supported either today!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's my point. There's no reason to believe MS will abandon WM6 anytime soon based off their past history.

" Microsoft Germany: WM 6.5 is here to stay"
Yes... it will stay in a coffin

41:10 into this interview, Brandon Watson confirms no more work being done on WM 6.5:
http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/vi...-mobility-partner-panel-q-and-a/qm237zm9?from

Hi,
what more work should they do?
IMHO, the OS is fine as it is. All it needs is adjusting to new hardware, which anyways is the job of the licensee...

Windcape said:
Microsoft released 3 new version of their server-OS product line (Server 2003, 2008, 2008 R2).
I think t's fair to call the support after ten years. I don't think Windows Mobile 1.0 is supported either today!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A lot of Android and Iphone fanboys simply are yet to realize how deep Microsoft is with enterprise customers and the excellent job they have done at continuing support for legacy systems. Android has already left their early adopters eating sawdust and the system is less than 3 years old. I'm unsure on if the original Iphone was given a viable update to the new Iphone OS4 so I can't comment, but I'm pretty sure they are going to have issues in the future as the hardware demands grow for the Iphone. I think it is awesome that Microsoft is creating a brand new platform that will kick ass while still having a viable system in place for the legacy phones that are out there.

RustyGrom said:
Did you know that support for Windows 2000 ends on Tuesday? Microsoft isn't one to leave their enterprise customers hanging. No reason to believe that they aren't being sincere with that promise.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If your a large volume customer (5,000+ units, I think, I forget the exact number), you can still get support for Windows 2000. If your willing to pay for it....Pay is the key word. NT4 is still supported if you PAY for it.
Most who were on NT 4 or 2000, moved to XP anyway...if not on 7 (most skipped over vista)

Microsoft abandoning WM for WP?
Are Microsoft completley abandoning Windows Mobile for Windows Phone?
It seems to me that this would be a stupid idea since Windows Mobile is a basically a Mobile OS rather then a Mobile Phone OS.
Wouldn't it be much more logical to have 2 branches, ie a Mobile and Phone?

TheATHEiST said:
Are Microsoft completley abandoning Windows Mobile for Windows Phone?
It seems to me that this would be a stupid idea since Windows Mobile is a basically a Mobile OS rather then a Mobile Phone OS.
Wouldn't it be much more logical to have 2 branches, ie a Mobile and Phone?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i would agree. 2 are better than one. it would also be better competition towards apple n android. lets go WM.

I doubt it. MS will continue to support WM6.X for a while yet. Now 3rd party support is another story...

No they learned this back in their parrallel solution days. When they had Windows 98/ME running in parrallel with Windows NT & 2000. They decided it was better to integrate both and offer a more robust & easier to use OS in Windows XP.
The same goes for this...they just have to learn how to integrate advanced features + Ease of use into a mobile OS.
But in the shortterm they are running Windows Embedded compact for busiess and wp7 is more consumer driven.