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Hi, I have been searching on the forum in search of some information on MicroSD cards and came to no avail.
With my HD, it came with a 8GB Class 6 MicroSDHC. I think it needed it to play videos. I can't imagine using it with a slower card.
Now, my TP2 will arrive Monday and I would like to know the following:
1. Brand
2. Size
3. Speed (class)
4. Price
Is it performing well with the video playbacks or have you installed the SD Tuner software available for the HD?
What do you recommend?
Many, many thanks for any replies, comments and help!
Bought a A-Data microSD class 6, 4 GB at a local computer store.
Not the one i was looking for, i wanted the 8GB or 16GB but both where not in stock and the 4GB was less then 10 euros. I will buy a larger one in a few months.
With class 6 my phone isn't slowed down. A few years ago i bought a 2GB mini-SD, but my HTC Vox was slowed down very much. Didn't look to the class/or speed back then.
MicroSD cards based on SLC might be beter them MLC. IMHO i would always take a class 6 or higher card. However class 8 cards are hard to find.
I'm using the 8GB Class 4 card that came with my daughter's Nokia 5800 and it seems fine. Just watched an xdiv episode of Only Fools and Horses on it with no stutter or dropped frames.
I bought a class 6 off Ebay and it should be here on Monday so I can compare then
i'm using sandisk 8g class 2. whatched movies and played music, everything is fine. It only cost me just under tenner.
The performance diference between a class 2 or a class 6 is not that noticeable. However, at the price the cards are, I think it worths always to buy a class 6 card.
I bought a Transcend 8GB class 6 card. It cost me aprox. 20€.
The biggest differences I noticed between a class 2 and 6 card are:
-Taking photos is faster with class 6
-Browsing photos in sdcard is a bit faster also
-Viewing movies sometimes is a bit more smooth.
HastaSSSS
I have a 16GB class 2 Sandisk. I watch movies just fine. I figure with a class 6 i might be able to watch HD videos more smoothly.
Hi guys,
Thanks for all your replies. So from what you guys are telling me, it is always better to pay that little extra for the class 6 MicroSDs. But then again, is it worth investing in a 16GB Class 4 (no Class 6 available except the brand A-Data) or an 8GB Class 6.
16GB is nearly 4 times more expensive than the 8GB and yet it is slower. Shall I just get 2 8GB and hot swap the 2 cards as need be?
I bought a class 6 off Ebay and it should be here on Monday so I can compare then
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, please let us know if it makes that much of a difference.
Bought a A-Data microSD class 6, 4 GB at a local computer store.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have read about this brand, and what others said was that their Class 6 under performs Sandisk's Class 4 Cards. Do yo notice any differences? How is the performance?
Also, I wouldn't recommend buying these cards off eBay. There are so many, fake cards on there. I know so, because I know mates that sell these cards. I would just buy from a genuine local store and pay a little bit more unless you don't care about performance.
Anyway, my last question.
What brand do you think has the best performance. Yeah, we can find out all the data about these cards on the web but it's nothing like the hands on tests from real users. So, will it be Sandisk, Transend, Toshiba, Kingston or the later A-Data?
Found a pretty review on the Sandisk 16GB C4 MicroSDHC cards. They compared it to the Kingston 8GB C4 MicroSDHC card.
Sandisk seems to be the company that is producing the fastest cards. It out performs Kingston.
But $133, is a bit steep. I think if I am correct a Sandisk 8GB C6 MicroSDHC is only $49.
What do you think?
You won't notice much difference between class 2 and class 6 as the device can only read at a certain speed, which is nearer class 4.
There are some cheap class 2 16gb cards out there, I have them and you only really notice if you install something like sdtuneup, but then again, you wouldn't notice much difference between class4 and class6
SanDisk microSDHC 16 GB Mobile Ultra works fine!
With the enclosed reader it is really fast via USB.
nicelad_uk said:
the device can only read at a certain speed, which is nearer class 4.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Cheers for the heads up about the TP2's read speed.
I was going to go for a 16GB class 2 but now might hold out for a class 4.
Haven't noticed any speed difference between my 8GB class 4 and 6 cards except that it's possibly slower than my Trinity but that may be due to the crummy TP2 stock ROM...
cocoaju said:
Shall I just get 2 8GB and hot swap the 2 cards as need be?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Please don't get two 8GB's, you will ruin the back cover of the device swapping the cards over all the time
My understanding is that the Class affects write speed, not read speed, so you won't see a difference playing movies on one or the other. You will see a difference in the amount of time it takes to get the movie onto the card (providing you aren't using ActiveSync, which will slow things down way beyond Class2 speeds).
I have a SanDisk Class 2 16 GB card on my Vogue and watch movies just fine with CorePlayer. Maybe a brief stutter once every 5 minutes or so, which I attribute to WinMo doing some other task in the background, not the read speed of the card.
In short, if it doesn't matter to you how long it takes to transfer large files onto the card, go with the least expensive.
Haven't noticed any speed difference between my 8GB class 4 and 6 cards except that it's possibly slower than my Trinity but that may be due to the crummy TP2 stock ROM...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Really? How much slower?
Yeah, I think I will go for 16GB for sure. The only thing now is what class. I am hearing 2 things here. I am worried about stutters on watching movies.
Some are saying speed only matters to write and not read.
But then I have read that it does matter, that is why there is a SDTuneUp for the HD.
I really don't want to buy a cheaper Class 2 card and only finding it is not working to my standards. I am pretty fussy about these things.
Any of you needed to install the SDTuneUp registry edit for the TP2? Do we need it? Anyone did any tests?
cocoaju said:
Really? How much slower?
Yeah, I think I will go for 16GB for sure. The only thing now is what class. I am hearing 2 things here. I am worried about stutters on watching movies.
Some are saying speed only matters to write and not read.
But then I have read that it does matter, that is why there is a SDTuneUp for the HD.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Check this out.
And this.
Class rating only refers to write speed, even though on the official SD association page it says "transfer speed." What they don't say is that it's transfer speed only one direction.
ajbopp said:
Check this out.
And this.
Class rating only refers to write speed, even though on the official SD association page it says "transfer speed." What they don't say is that it's transfer speed only one direction.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hello ajbopp,
Thanks for your additional information. I think not a lot of people actually realise this. I always thought the Class Rating was how you determine transfer speed and not just write speed.
But there must be some ratings for Reading. Some cards are faster than others and that will certainly affect the rate of requiring information from the card, right? Because files are written in blocks and are distributed everywhere (fragmentation), so if the card is faster, then finding the blocks will be quicker, hence a better performance for reading movie files.
Just thinking logically how computer hard disk works. Not sure if that applies to SDHC cards. I also think the speed is also determined by the drive (the hardware reading/writing on the card).
There aren't many information on this. I have been searching around and most information I found was given by the companies that made these cards. Real tests are few and far between. Most websites I visited, tells me only of the write speed as I think that is what is most important to people who uses these cards, such as Photo Fanatics who needs speed for taking high end photos very quickly and for taking HD videos at 30fps. There is less need to know about read speed.
It's so confusing...
Got it yesterday. Thanks for all your help guys!
I finally went for the Transcend 8GB Class 6 Micro SDHC. Cost of only $187 HKD, roughly $23 USD. Didn't end up getting the 16GB as they didn't have any in stock and it costs 3 times the amount.
Without any tests, I just loaded my movies and it played very well. No dropped frames. No tweaks whatsoever.
Hello!
I had a TP with a Micro SD 8GB Class 2 card.
I'm considering buying a new one (lack of space available) and I wonder if I should consider a class 4 or 6...
I use the MicroSD to store software, pictures (camera), music (to listen), and some videos (to watch).
I don't intend to remove the microsd from the TP2 slot (have to remove the cover) so what I usually do is to connect via USB cable (data instead of AS).
So, transfering data like this will I notice difference with Class 2, 4 or 6?
I'd get a good price with this:
http://www.amazon.com/Kingston-Technology-SDC2-16GB-microSDHC/dp/B001RPD06I
is it good enough or should I buy a Sandisk or perhaps a Class 4 or 6?
Thanks
SanDisk and Kingston are both good manufactures.
Class 4 is faster than class 2 and class 6 is faster than class 4.
But on the other hand: class 4 cards need more power consumption than class 2 cards and class 6 cards need power consumption than class 4.
For this reason I bought 1 x 16gb class 4. That is the compromise of speed and power.
doktor_ppc said:
Class 4 is faster than class 2 and class 6 is faster than class 4.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again, this is only for write speed. I think it's an important distinction to make, especially if you are hoping for better video playback because of a faster card. The class of the card is not likely to have any impact on the device's performance, either video or anything else (other than file saving/writing operations).
so... for my kinda use there is no need for a class 6 right?
do you think a class 2 kingston MicroSD 16GB can be used for what I want?
playback music and some video... storage ... navigation?
So I'm looking for SD cards for my vibrant. I'm wondering if I should be shelling out 100$ for a 16 GB Class 10 card or get the class 2 32 GB for the same price. Does anyone know if the phone might somehow be limited to certain file transfer speeds when connected via USB? I do intend to use the card for video and have all my apps on it. Thoughts?
From wikipedia:
The following are the ratings of some currently available cards:
Class 2: 16 Mbit/s (2 MB/s)
Class 4: 32 Mbit/s (4 MB/s)
Class 6: 48 Mbit/s (6 MB/s)
Class 10: 80 Mbit/s (10 MB/s)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You might compromise and look for a class 6 -- i've seen a lot more class 6's than 10's so you might get a much better value from a class 6 purchase -- unless you need/want the fastest possible.
Lets just say I survived for a couple of years or whatever the time frame was running my apps off my G1 on a Class 6 card just fine.
Avatar runs fine on my SD card so I'd guess at least whatever that is if you are running video.
Thanks for the input, anyone actually have a 10 that they are using? A 6 is a viable option...
Sent from my Vibrant using XDA App
Class 4 is plenty fast. Class 10 imo for this phone is a waste of money. I got a class 4 16GB for $32.99 last weekend.
Go for a class 6, 10 is overkill and really intended for mass writes in the form of very high quality video or photos in quick succession.
~ infinityv ~
i have a 32 gb class2 and it plays my 720p .mkv videos just fine
Not all micro SD cards are made the same even if they say they are a given class. Stay away from eBay there are cases where people modify the firmware of the card and you get a card that is actually smaller or slower.
The best cards are name brands like Sandisk or Lexar. Transcend is also a very good brand and the tend to mark their card such that they always meet the spec but often read at higher speeds. Kingston is the name brand card that I have seen so far, but reviews on Newegg indicate that it's R/W performance isn't class 10 (<10MB/s). Some vendors interpret the class spec such that they say cards are class X if their peak read speed is X instead of their lowest R/W speed should not go below X.
I'd recommend getting a class 6 Transcend card (lifetime warranty). The sweet spot right now is 8GB class 6 for ~$20. Their 16GB is like ~$75 on Amazon.
Class 6 is good if you plan to run apps or put extended partitions / swap on it. That is what I did with my old G1. It is also a safe bet if your planning to record at 720p.
If you just need space for playing movies and music you can go for the cheaper 32GB cards. I'd pick a class 4 to be safe if your doing HD movies.
I'm trying to decide if i should go for space, or speed.
For those of you that bought 32gb cards, are they class2? and if so do apps and such run off it fine, playing movies?
Class 6 is much more fast, and a class6 16gb card is still half the price as a class 2 32gb card.
Just looking for guidance here, do we need more then class2 for our phones.
Plan on putting movies and apps and stuff on the card.
I have a 16GB class 2 card in my Cappy, and I can play 720p video off it without a single stutter, and I never did install the lagfix, so class 2 SHOULD be fast enough, depending on what you want to do with it.
But right now, the cost of the 32GB cards is, I think, prohibitive. It costs > 3x what I can get a 16GB card for, and thus far, I have not filled my card yet.
I would go with a faster speed for the bigger size card, class 2 would be too slow if you are read/write onto it constantly; For the best bang of your buck, the Polaroid 16GB microSD (made in Japan by PNY) from Frys is going for under $20 (after rebate); Even though it is labeled as a Class 2 card, but under most SD benchmark app, it is detected as a Class 4 card (4.5 MB/s Write/15 MB/s Read under the 300MB file R/W test in SD Card Speed Test)
I would rather take a 2GB class 6 over a 32gb class 2. Class 2 is so unbelievably slow its unbearable. I use my phone as a usb drive very often. In my previous phone I had an 8gb class 2. It was so slow I thought the card was broken. So I RMAed it and the new one was the same. I realized that it just takes like 8min/gb to transfer to it. (and no its not faster in this phone)
Class 4 is standard, anything less is a waste of silicon and plastic.
Class 6 is about as fast as your average-quick USB thumb drive.
Yes class 2 is fast enough to run programs and play back video, but you'll spend a lifetime transferring those things.
Not worth it IMO. Get an 8gb class6 if cost is an issue. Also, don't go with any crappy random manufacturers. I find that a class 6 from 'craptasticMEM' is nowhere near the speeds it should be, and in fact usually slower than a clas 4 I have from kingston.
The class rating has nothing to do with playback speed, only write speed. Copying files is faster, but how often are you loading up your SD card from your computer?
I am using class 2 and it is recording video just fine. I am not sure why above poster claims "class 4 is standard" - that would imply that class 2 is sub-standard. It is not, it just has slower write speed.
Keep in mind that if you lay out the big bucks for a class 6 32GB card today, it will half the price in a few months.
Now in my HD Camcorder it requires Class 6 to record 1080P - our phones have no such requirement, so anything above class 2 will help in initial data transfer from PC - after that you may never, ever see any benefit.
alphadog00 said:
... I am not sure why above poster claims "class 4 is standard" - that would imply that class 2 is sub-standard. It is not, it just has slower write speed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, sorry you're correct. Class 4 is standard in my gauge of memory cards/usb drives. All the classes "should" perform fine. The higher classes are obviously faster (with significant brand to brand variation). I find that they are faster at everything though. Not just write, but read as well. A class 6 card is as smooth as the internal memory in the captivate. A class 2 card is abysmal at everything (in my experience). I say class 4 is standard because class 2 is really bad...
eatkabab said:
Yes, sorry you're correct. Class 4 is standard in my gauge of memory cards/usb drives. All the classes "should" perform fine. The higher classes are obviously faster (with significant brand to brand variation). I find that they are faster at everything though. Not just write, but read as well. A class 6 card is as smooth as the internal memory in the captivate. A class 2 card is abysmal at everything (in my experience). I say class 4 is standard because class 2 is really bad...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It could be my blindness - not physically, but the ignorance of not having a class 4 or 6 to compare to my class 2. My class 2 works fine for me, but if the class 6 stuff gets cheap I will head on over to it.
alphadog00 said:
It could be my blindness - not physically, but the ignorance of not having a class 4 or 6 to compare to my class 2. My class 2 works fine for me, but if the class 6 stuff gets cheap I will head on over to it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My 32GB Class 2 reads/writes as smoothly as the internal card on the captivate as well.
locsplitter said:
My 32GB Class 2 reads/writes as smoothly as the internal card on the captivate as well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
lol no
internal is like class 10 i believe
locsplitter said:
My 32GB Class 2 reads/writes as smoothly as the internal card on the captivate as well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
its not healthy to lie
you guys are missing the fact that the class ratings are a MINIMUM rating. a lot of brands will perform MUCH faster than what they have printed on them. just saying something is class X is pretty much pointless. it's just a guideline that is being loosely followed. benchmark and move on
If your running apps off of your card than believe me there is noticable difference between a class 2 and a class 6, and yes dont go for a no name.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
demize! said:
If your running apps off of your card than believe me there is noticable difference between a class 2 and a class 6, and yes dont go for a no name.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't believe you. It 100% fully depends on the card. Some class 2's are faster than class 6's. Ratings are lies.... benchmark ftw!
True that. Ive found significant differences by brand. However, there is definitely a noticeable difference between a class 2 and a class 6 card.
What you get depends on personal requirements more than anything else. Faster or more storage?
ok im sorry, i just wanted to confirm something, i'm looking at a getting a new sdhc card, mine is a oem verizon sandisk 16 gb class 2. im looking into upgrading to a 32 gb. i have alota music, maps, cm rom backups etc, and im looking at moving most of my apps to the card.
from what i understand a class 2, 4, 10 dosent mean much difference in the phone, but when downloading files to a computer. i wanted to confirm that the class doesnt mean much in the phone's speed..... this will change which card i go with... sandisk class 2 32gb are roughly 60 bucks and i like the company cause ive never had a problem with them, however the store down the road frys has a wintec class 10 32 gb for 65 bucks.... just wanted to get your guys opinion.... especially since the lenex and kingston are 100 each... again im not talking about the brand im talking about the class
It will make a difference on how fast things on the sdcard load. For instance your gallery will load much faster with a higher class card. If you have apps installed on your sdcard then they will load faster and so on. Now with this being said I have a 16GB Wintech class 10 card and and Adata class 6 card. The Adata class 6 loads everything much faster than the Wintech. My guess as to why this happens is because Adata is simply a better brand than Wintech. Some people have gotten lucky with the Wintech Class 10 cards and some have not. Some Class 2 cards will read and write at class 6 speeds. Is it confusing...a little, but the higher the class for the most part the higher the speed. If you can find a good class 6 or class 10 card it will be worth it, but my advice is to stay away from the Wintech. I have heard also that the Kingston class 4 cards usually are much faster than what they are rated for. If you want cheap, go cheap, but IMO you usually get what you pay for and Kingston is probably the top brand when it comes to microsd cards.
That's not necessarily true. The class rating refers to the minimum write speed - it has nothing to do with the read speed. I recently upgraded to a 16GB class 10 card from an 8GB class 6 card.
The class 6 card got ~7 MB/s write and ~14 MB/s read in SDTools. The class 10 card gets ~11 MB/s write and ~9 MB/s read.
But in general, the higher the class the better the card will perform in your phone.
yeah, higher class cards are only really good if you stream a lot
housry23 said:
Kingston is probably the top brand when it comes to microsd cards.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i know this is only your opinion and im not trying to put you down or anything, but i do believe scandisk is top rated memory card.
i may be wrong, but im pretty sure they have lowest consumer complaints (about card dieing after a month or read and write speeds being slow, or whatever the consumer may complain about)
i have always used scandisk and i, myself would rate them to be the best, but thats just my opinion.
life_420 said:
i know this is only your opinion and im not trying to put you down or anything, but i do believe scandisk is top rated memory card.
i may be wrong, but im pretty sure they have lowest consumer complaints (about card dieing after a month or read and write speeds being slow, or whatever the consumer may complain about)
i have always used scandisk and i, myself would rate them to be the best, but thats just my opinion.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sandisk, not scandisk.
Hi,
I want to buy a 32 gb micro sd for my Atrix, but I see there are different Classes....
I saw in TheCellGuru a 32 gb Class 2 for about 75 bucks. But I remeber I had a Class 4 8gb, so what is the difference?
Can my Atrix read any 32gb card? Should I look for another one?
Thanks!
The higher the class the faster the SD card.
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App
Thnx. But can Atrix read any class? What class should I get?
dragoncius said:
Thnx. But can Atrix read any class? What class should I get?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
if you can live with the slower speed, den the 32gb is fine.
But whats the deal with speed? Does it affect performance on the phone or just data transfer time when moving files to and from the micro sd?
Enviado desde mi Motorola Atrix™ usando Tapatalk
IIRC, class speed also affects how fast the SD loads on your phone.
Thnx. So, lets say I never turn off the phone, and the sd card will load only once, getting a 2 class sd isnt a bad idea. Am I right?
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Can someine confirm if Atrix supports Class 6 32 gb micro sd?
Enviado desde mi Motorola Atrix™ usando Tapatalk
Yes an ATRIX will support a class 6 32gb SD ( finally moto adds ATRIX as a word in their keyboard lol)
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App
neer2005 said:
The higher the class the faster the SD card.
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Slight correction: the higher the minimum speed guarantee. A class number defines the absolute minimum write speed of an SD card. Devices can read the class from the card and with that can set some expectations in the software for how long things should take.
So with that, there are Class 2 cards that actually, out of the box, perform better than cards with a much higher class. Will they forever, once worn and fragmented? Maybe not.
It's all very vague, exactly what the manufacturers want
I had a class 2 8GB card and now have a class 4 32GB card ($45 on amazon with their goldbox deal, kingston) and the class 2 is like 2 mbps faster than my class 4... maybe i should have gone with the class 2...
I have a Lexar 32Gb class 10, it's working despise of some bad comments around it, so far, so good. The class of the card is about the reading speed - the higher, the better (in theory).
I have the 32g class 10 lexar but it failed on my once and I needed to reformat it. If I had to by another one I would stick with sandisk. They are pretty solid.
Generally class determines the speed of Read and Write.
Class 4 is usually the minimum requirement for HD recording as it requires faster writing abilities.
Not all microSD have the same speeds as each company varies with speed even if they are the same class. Some class 4 could actually be faster than class 6.
Beware of fake microSD as usually that may be one of the reasons that it could be slower or even die out within the first week of usage.
I would recommend using SD Tools in the market place as soon as you receive your card.
https://market.android.com/details?id=ales.veluscek.sdtools&feature=search_result
Just be patient with the deals, there's always a lower price.
Careca_RS said:
The class of the card is about the reading speed - the higher, the better (in theory).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Write speed, not read speed. The whole "class" thing is confusing enough without people giving incorrect information. Sorry to be so pedantic.
Here it is direct from the source (PDF): http://www.sdcard.org/developers/te...lified_Specification_Ver3.01_Final_100518.pdf
Also from the source, a simplified overview: http://www.sdcard.org/developers/tech/speed_class/
Class is based on write speed because SD cards (well MMC) of course were originally conceived of for use with digital cameras and camcorders, where write speed is critical, but read speed much less so.
_kansei_ said:
Write speed, not read speed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeap. That's what I meant.
Thanks for the correction
Thabks everyone! I will wait and be on the look for a nice deal. Thnx!
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I just tested my 16GB class 2 MicroSD (Patriot brand, off newegg) that i've had for a year or two. The minimum write speed during the benchmark was 10.5 MB/s, i.e. Class 10 speeds. Read speeds were 16MB/s. I'm pleased
Since there's a high variance, all you can do is buy a card based on brand reputation and the class rating and hope that it's actually faster than the class suggests. Does it need to be faster? I dunno, I only use my card for media storage.
Mgamerz said:
I had a class 2 8GB card and now have a class 4 32GB card ($45 on amazon with their goldbox deal, kingston) and the class 2 is like 2 mbps faster than my class 4... maybe i should have gone with the class 2...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
greetings, im new to the forums (and the atrix, only had this baby for two days now), but i can shed some light on the matter.
with the microSD cards, the class tells you the minimum write speed. class 2 = 2mb/s minimum. class 4 = 4mb/s minimum. hence your class 4 is meant to be 2mb/s faster than class 2.
at the moment, i use a class 10 16gb from kingmax. for the most part, most people wont notice the difference between most classes, but if you want to take lots of photos in rapid succession or if you plan to film 720p footage directly to the SD card, or even if you watch really large videos, its generally better to go for a higher class.
sure, you can still take a 5-8mp photo and save it to a class 2, but at class 2 speeds, it would take ~1 second for the photo to save. on a class 10, it takes ~0.2 seconds for the same photo to save (assuming all else remains the same), which can come in handy for quick snaps. but given the amount of ram we have on the atrix, i'd assume it would buffer to ram first and copy later so it wouldnt be much of an issue.
I took a chance....
I took a chance and bought some Chinese 32GB cards supposedly rated for Class 10.
I ran a test on one of the cards , placing it inside my phone, using SD tools (from the market)
It reported write speeds of 4.0 MB/s and read speeds of 5.3MB/s. In theory that's about a class 6 but there are supposedly latency issues that creep up as the cards get larger.
I need to compare that number to known cards before I say anything about the source. I'd be curious to see test results from this app on other atrix's with other microSD cards.
I do notice that it is faster loading everything than my SanDisk 16GB class 2 card. My camera works faster too: faster to load the pictures and faster to take them.