Given Andy Lees quote about WP7: "It's a very sort of advanced platform that really works across PC, phone, and console," it seems likely he's talking about Silverlight 4, especially given the boost in features that it's getting for version 4. I find this to be a very suitable platform for what they're trying to do. You can't beat multi-platform & RIA support - dev once, run on all. What do you think?
Still very propretiary
chribruu said:
Still very propretiary
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So what? All current phones only support native applications that are created with a proprietary SDK. The big exception is Java which is executed in a VM, but these applications cannot use the full potential of each platform, because they must aim for the lowest common denominator. So without modifications, no native application will run on all platforms.
chribruu said:
Still very propretiary
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It's not any different than the current situation really. How many people write WM code in anything other than Visual Studio?
Basically a different set of GUI libraries on .Net 3.5.
Hope they'll make SL4 available on WM6.5, too. That way it would be a much better platform choice.
You're all right. I replied without really thinking my post trough. :/
The only thing bad with SL (and flash) is if/when they become web "standards".
Just disregard that post
Sorry for the OT.
from the little i have read/seen. it seems like this will prob be the case..
Silverlight will be one of the dev platforms, along with C++ with a XAML UI.
in this video
"Behind the Design of Windows phone 7" on youtube (i could not post the link)
1:25 - 1:29
you can see the ide for wp7.
it looks like blend. that would definitely mean xaml for ui.
pensoffsky said:
in this video
"Behind the Design of Windows phone 7" on youtube (i could not post the link)
1:25 - 1:29
you can see the ide for wp7.
it looks like blend. that would definitely mean xaml for ui.
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And as I said, C++ with a XAML UI...
XNA C#, no dubt for the games.
It's available for the Zune HD, I guess it will follow on to WP7
But maby not for the UI?? any thoughts?
From XNA.com :
XNA Game Studio 3.1 Zune Extensions, to support Zune HD, adds the following functionality to the product:
The ability to target and develop for the Zune HD media player.
The addition of new Touch APIs to the XNA Framework for use on the Zune HD.
The addition of new Accelerometer APIs to the XNA Framework for use on the Zune HD.
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I don't really believe, that they'll be using an unmanaged language for the application developement itself (other than drivers of course).
I think it would be most likely to be using C#, perhaps more in the way of how most android apps use java, e.g. it's precompiled on deployment.
What I really hope for is that, there is no longer the limitation of 32 mb per process.
Related
Looks like Silverlight is the platform for creating Windows Phone 7 apps, finally.
http://www.crn.com/software/222900433;jsessionid=ZSTDUKCIARR4FQE1GHPCKHWATMY32JVN
I hope so, SIlverlight rocks, so much better on my PC than Flash but yet it isnt widely adopted, hopefully if WP7S has Silverlight this will boost its use
Finally!
It is indeed a very logical step.
I was trying to make a "fancy" UI on WinMo 6x and it's damn hard (that will work blazing fast). And search for a Silverlight for WinMo... and it was there... and it was showed on the TechEd 08... but never released... and I was like:
-Oh ... come on... how long does it take to port it??!
This is almost like a "duh" story but it's good to have a "source" saying it.
Silverlight will be for lightweight stuff and XNA 3 (4?) will be for Games, etc.
Imagine being able to write one app and have it work on multiple platforms with little or even no code changes. Silverlight supports multi-touch on Windows 7 too.
XNA and Silverlight. No native apps - see attach.
Can you already create SL applications for the WinMo?
DMAND said:
I hope so, SIlverlight rocks, so much better on my PC than Flash but yet it isnt widely adopted, hopefully if WP7S has Silverlight this will boost its use
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Yes silverlight rocks and i am learning it right now.
afma_afma said:
Yes silverlight rocks and i am learning it right now.
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Know any application? Link?
Developing .NET CF on WM6 is a -pain-. Even if you want to do something as simple as draw a transparent image you have to delve into P/Invoke which feels like hacking. If they get .NET development under WP7 working simply and effectively, then I think it will be a great step forward. I've used WPF extensively and it is a great platform to work on. I've no reason to think Silverlight is any different.
My only concern is how they'll restrict the distribution and installation of applications. The openness of the Windows Mobile platform has always been a big draw, and if they do an Apple and try to restrict how I publish and obtain apps then not many people will see a reason to switch from such an established and successful platform.
Okay, so since the unlocked emulator has a file manager and task manager, does that mean it would be possible to extract them and run them on an actual WP7S device? And if that was possible, would it also be possible to extract the Native APIs from these apps? I'm fairly certain that they use Native APIs because ordinary apps can only access their own directory. I'm not very smart with these things, so sorry if it's obviously impossible or something.
It's wince - the native API is always there, where do you want to extract it from? Also some people figured out most WP7 apps from the emulator ROM are written in native as well. it's always here.
But you can't just put file manager on a WP7 device because there's no access for you to put anything on it, except apps from Marketplace you got the picture? even if we could cook our custom ROMs in the future the only thing we could do is throw in our own DLLs, services or background tools on it and customize it a little. I still doubt you'd be able to develop real WP7 style apps like a file manager or registry editor because the GUI is supposed to be written in Silverlight/XNA. And from those frameworks you can't access the native API unless Microsoft would add support for it.
101% dumb phone. If you think about it then WP7 is even WORSE then iphone.
But what if you could use Visual Studio to load it onto the device? If you look around in it, there is an option for that.
Actual devices will have to be unlocked for developement purposes to allow sideloading through Visual Studio and even then I doubt the system would be able to deploy native code. Developer phone means a yearly fee for membership in the MS developer programm.
I don't think that using native APIs from managed code would be impossible in the SDK - carriers, e.g. will be allowed to use it, but for normal applications the Security Context in .Net would prevent the programm from calling them (Code Security Managers are configurably available in Java and .Net from the beginning, so i believe that would be what MS uses to block access).
And of course programs using those wouldn't get on the marketplace.
Oh, too bad then, but thanks for your response anyway!
Fdo35 said:
Okay, so since the unlocked emulator has a file manager and task manager, does that mean it would be possible to extract them and run them on an actual WP7S device? And if that was possible, would it also be possible to extract the Native APIs from these apps? I'm fairly certain that they use Native APIs because ordinary apps can only access their own directory. I'm not very smart with these things, so sorry if it's obviously impossible or something.
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Okay, the issue here is the lack of a few key DLLs: Windows 7 Series will not offer GDI most likely (I'm downloading the emulator set now, and will confirm this soon) and will lack comctl32.dll and the like, removing these functions. As it's been stated before, like Windows 7 uses the 6.1 NT Kernel, Windows Phone 7 series uses the 6.5 Windows CE kernel, at least, last that I've heard. It would then be both possible to bring Windows Mobile 6.5 DLLs over, but anything that calls GDI will not work. Solution? Make a mock GDI that uses the new render.
This isn't new either, Windows 7 uses WPF more than ever (Which composes most of the games as well as Windows Media Center), which is a 3D accelerated and fancier way to draw to the screen, and Windows 7's GDI subset has been updated to allow hardware acceleration granted the graphics card allows it (It's actually something the video card driver must tell Windows, as MSDN states)
Deploy native code, no. Run it, of course
I'll be investigating the possibility of native code here shortly. Chances are, you will need to set the target to ARMV6, and set the compile type to Native, not Windows. Most developers, if not all, probably have overlooked this.
I would expect that it'll require privileged access to run native code, so you'll need to solve the code signing problem.
ThymeCypher said:
Okay, the issue here is the lack of a few key DLLs: Windows 7 Series will not offer GDI most likely (I'm downloading the emulator set now, and will confirm this soon) and will lack comctl32.dll and the like, removing these functions. As it's been stated before, like Windows 7 uses the 6.1 NT Kernel, Windows Phone 7 series uses the 6.5 Windows CE kernel, at least, last that I've heard. It would then be both possible to bring Windows Mobile 6.5 DLLs over, but anything that calls GDI will not work. Solution? Make a mock GDI that uses the new render.
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Well, I doubt things like comctl.dll and some other things like GWES will be that big of an issue once Platform Builder 7 is released and we can just generate these components ourselves. Hell, adding back GDI support (if those rumors aren't just lies) may be as easy as replacing the GWES with a less crippled one generated by Platform Builder. Maybe GDI support is still compiled in but just doesn't output directly to the screen using the default graphics driver implementation. That's how the Dreamcast implementation of Windows CE was. To even see apps like IE on the screen, you need to copy the contents of the standard WinCE GDI output to a DirectDraw surface.
What I'm more worried about is the hackability of the hardware/software. I'm really hoping it's not as insanely locked down to the point to being unhackable like every Zune.
do you think Platform builder is still available for WP7? Since MS won't allow the OEMs to modify the OS I doubt that. Do you have a source? You've seen an announcement from MS or something?
RAMMANN said:
do you think Platform builder is still available for WP7? Since MS won't allow the OEMs to modify the OS I doubt that. Do you have a source? You've seen an announcement from MS or something?
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Platformbuilder is for the OS, which is Windows CE. There is still some debate as to what version the emulator is running, leaving alone the possibility that the actual version of the OS may be different at release.
If the CE6R3 camp is right, you can get platform builder for that right now, though you wont have telshell.exe (WP7 replacement for explorer.exe), and the WP7 specific apps. It would be an interesting exercise to see if they could be run on CE6R3. If no one beats me to the punch, I plan on trying this for myself when I am less swamped at work.
If the CE7 camp is right, you will have to wait till MS releases that version to the public. And they WILL release it because there are far too many embedded systems outside of phones that run on CE for them to neglect it.
No, I was talking about the generic Windows CE 7.0 Platform Builder and not the OEM specific OAK for WP7S. Unless MS plans to completely drop their generic Embedded Windows CE offerings, I see no reason why PB 7.0 will not be released and help with hacking WP7S (if it is even based on 7.0). You always needed to be a large ODM and sing an NDA to use a Platform Builder addon/OAK for the MS platforms like Pocket PC. Those almost never leak and I can't imagine this would be much different.
RAMMANN said:
do you think Platform builder is still available for WP7? Since MS won't allow the OEMs to modify the OS I doubt that. Do you have a source? You've seen an announcement from MS or something?
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Yes, platform builder was used to build leaked wp7 arm image.
d:\wm700_6176\platform\common\src
\soc\qcom_v1\oal\power\sleep.c
It is from from nk.exe
use dumpbin.exe to get all methods in dll/exe
I've been out of the loop a long time as far as programming goes. Whats the best place to start because when I get my Win7 phone later this year i want to be able to build and modify programs for it. As well as modify the OS as well.
Thanks.
For developing apps: http://developer.windowsphone.com/windows-phone-7/
As for hacking, we'll most likely have to wait for proper devices first...
What programming language is Win7 Mobile being built in?
slight22 said:
What programming language is Win7 Mobile being built in?
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There's silverlight and XNA. Silverlight is being recommended for applications and 2d games while XNA is being recommended for heavier 3d games.
Silverlight isn't bad. It's just c# and xaml. The free tools provided are great. You can get VS2010, XNA Game Studio, and Blend. The advantage to Blend is that it lets you design your silverlight interfaces and animations in a simple GUI instead of having to code it.
Hey there!
I'm wondering if OpenGL games, like Quake III, can be ported just like they did for Android with Kwaak3.
Does WinPho7 support OpenGL ES in addition to DX9c?
Best Regards Mr.Sir (Gustaf)
I googled around and it appears that XNA will be the only choice besides silverlight for app/game development. So if you can somehow port an OpenGL came to XNA, then yes.
Mr.Sir said:
Hey there!
I'm wondering if OpenGL games, like Quake III, can be ported just like they did for Android with Kwaak3.
Does WinPho7 support OpenGL ES in addition to DX9c?
Best Regards Mr.Sir (Gustaf)
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Nope. It's only what you will find in XNA. There are several samples people have posted for porting on xbox 360; same code will work on the phone with VERY little changes.
So, seriously guys, no native support? I mean, when i was working at NDrive they had everything written in C++ with interfaces for each device. I doubt that any sane company will rewrite its software completly just to compete in a niche...
Even in .NET CF you COULD do some PInvokes which kinda allowed you to attempt to run a managed version of OpenGL (.NET sucked and still sucks for serious game development, obviously) which was slow as hell, but at least it was there.
So please, native support!
ei05035 said:
.NET sucked and still sucks for serious game development, obviously) which was slow as hell, but at least it was there.
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That's why it is entitled with XNA
Yup Buddy but its gud because you have to code only one time and then you can able to convert it for using on other platforms..
And by several platforms you say M$ based ones. I mean, most companies (i can give you the example of NDrive as I was there for a while) would rather code in C++ and create interfaces for specific platforms. No native code support kills it. I don't see companies renaming extensions to .cs, enabling unsafe code (pointers, etc) and giving it a good dose of whisfull thinking.
Oh and when I meant that XNA sucked for serious gaming i meant really. AAA games don't rely on that. They rely on GPU manufacters SDKs and on the good ol' DirectX SDK. This is if they don't have some housemade engine (like Crytek) similar to Shiva3D or Unity (but custom tailored).
I mean, seriously. In .NET CF 3.5, give it a go, try to natively rotate an image and resize it without manually processing the bitmap information to do so (and at the expense of CPU usage). I had to rely on DxSprites and OpenGL when I needed.
XNA is, as it was already mentioned, game-wise, a game-loop oriented tool with a few PInvokes to DirectX...
ei05035 said:
And by several platforms you say M$ based ones. I mean, most companies (i can give you the example of NDrive as I was there for a while) would rather code in C++ and create interfaces for specific platforms. No native code support kills it. I don't see companies renaming extensions to .cs, enabling unsafe code (pointers, etc) and giving it a good dose of whisfull thinking.
Oh and when I meant that XNA sucked for serious gaming i meant really. AAA games don't rely on that. They rely on GPU manufacters SDKs and on the good ol' DirectX SDK. This is if they don't have some housemade engine (like Crytek) similar to Shiva3D or Unity (but custom tailored).
I mean, seriously. In .NET CF 3.5, give it a go, try to natively rotate an image and resize it without manually processing the bitmap information to do so (and at the expense of CPU usage). I had to rely on DxSprites and OpenGL when I needed.
XNA is, as it was already mentioned, game-wise, a game-loop oriented tool with a few PInvokes to DirectX...
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If you are so gung-ho, you could write wrappers in C++, compile the DLL and pinvoke your calls.
tyrannus said:
If you are so gung-ho, you could write wrappers in C++, compile the DLL and pinvoke your calls.
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Exactly! Honestly for me it is the way to go. It's not that i don't like C# or .NET, quite the contrary. I'm just sorry that they lack the portability some projects require. And for me, WP7 not having native code support is a real buzz kill. What do you think?
It does have native code support but you need Microsoft's permission to get the SDK. I'm pretty sure game companies will have it if they want to make use of the GPU as much as possible.
No idea if this a new feature but I stumbled upon it today.
I downloaded a zip from my Dropbox account. IE9 opened the zip file adding number to the file. It's the [1] you see in the photo. After downloading the contents are made visible.
I could play the audio files and I think video will work too.
Nothing new, it can even open .exe files. I haven't got WP7 NDK so I can't try any native WP7 executable though.
OndraSter said:
Nothing new, it can even open .exe files. I haven't got WP7 NDK so I can't try any native WP7 executable though.
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What? Seems like you have no idea (at all!) what are you talking about...
Well nice to know anyway.
Is this already in 7712?
sensboston said:
What? Seems like you have no idea (at all!) what are you talking about...
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ok maybe I am stupid but please explane what is new here ?
and please explane to me what this has to do with 7720 ?
and if it is really 7720 then please tell me how to get that build because I still have the 7712 build and not the rtm.
Greetings Cees
What's new for me? %) I've never heard about WP7 NDK but of course know Android's NDK (and still have no idea what is the name of the official manufacturer's SDK for Windows Phone 7)
Oh sure there is NDK, just not publicly available =). I have a lot of things I should not be having, but WP7 NDK and HD2 BSP seems like impossible to get my hands on.
OndraSter said:
Oh sure there is NDK, just not publicly available =). I have a lot of things I should not be having, but WP7 NDK and HD2 BSP seems like impossible to get my hands on.
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How do you know what Platform Builder for WP7 (probably but I don't know exact name!) called NDK??? Any prooflink? Or it's just your imagination? Are you working for Samsung/HTC/Nokia?
I am not working with anybody.
I think that OEMs might be having some (parts) of NDK - just take a look, they build apps like flashlight and since these things don't have their .NET API, they had to use something - NDK - to build native library that exposes these APIs .
NDK is not platformbuilder. Platformbuilder is tool, that builds system for the target platform from some parts (CE kernel, WP build, then you also need BSP for the target device containing drivers).
Seems that you are just messing a lot of different things... It calls Windows CE/Mobile SDK, not a NDK (NDK is a "Native Development Kit" from Google for Android platform). Windows CE (what is the WP7 based on) have ability to run not only native but also managed (.NET) code. You may build standalone executables for CE starting from Visual C++ Embedded 3.0 (just provide a correct libraries for linking).
There is no thing such a "top-secret magical NDK"
sensboston said:
You may build standalone executables for CE starting from Visual C++ Embedded 3.0 (just provide a correct libraries for linking).
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Which is what they is called WP7 NDK. You develop native libraries with this kit.
//
Android has SDK which compiles stuff in Java into managed code.
Android has NDK which compiles stuff in C/C++ into native code.
Same stuff, different brand.
OndraSter said:
Which is what they is called WP7 NDK. You develop native libraries with this kit.
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It's ridiculous, named by whom? By you? Sorry but you don't have enough authority and experience on my sight. BTW, you may call it whatever you want: NDK, DDK, WP7K but please not on xda-dev forum! Let's call things by real not imaginary names.
P.S. Just asked one of the WP7 developers from MS, he pointed me to http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/gg156052.aspx . Try to find NDK word on these pages!
ZIP from 7004...
Zip functionality was in 7004 already.
I've installed certificates for Chevron and for our exchange server zipped and sent to myself. I downloaded it through OWA (Outlook Web Access) in IE Mobile. It worked since from the beginning. Sure of it.
Regards, Cina.
@sensboston
You do realize that that link is for building WCE7 images and NOT building APPS for it, right? "Building, testing, tuning, and debugging a Windows Embedded Compact powered device".
And you don't need SDK or NDK for WCE7, you need SDK or NDK or whatever you want to call it for WP7. They do differ.
Listen, OndraSter, you can build native apps for WP7 (based on WEC7) using eVC 3.0, eVC 4.0, VS 2003, VS 2005 and VS 2008 (you need only WEC7 or what exactly running in WP7) SDK (yes, it calls SDK not NDK!). But you can't run "native" (how u called) application because it's not allowed by WP7 security. Very simple.
P.S. Are you trolling me?
You can build apps as long as they don't use anything with WP7 shell. (You surely know why.)
Oh and now you are saying that it is named SDK? Do you have proof?
I asked WithinRafael on twitter. Reply? "It is called Hybrid SDK in circles." It is still not official reply, but he is the closest one as I can get for now. And it is not NDK - sorry for that, but it is not SDK either.
OndraSter said:
And it is not NDK
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Oh Lord I can't believe my eyes! Thanks!
OndraSter said:
Reply? "It is called Hybrid SDK in circles."
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<skipped>
OndraSter said:
but it is not SDK either.
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No more my comments on this topic, I'm too tired
sensboston said:
Oh Lord I can't believe my eyes! Thanks!
<skipped>
No more my comments on this topic, I'm too tired
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WOW what a dev talk in here
so now that is all cleared could you please make us a wifi router (I want to donate to that if you want ) ?
you seem to be the right person to ask.
Greetings Cees Heim.
OndraSter, andoid's native SDK calls NDK, but WP's doesn't depend on it. Noone knows, how does it named, but every previous version of it for WM called SDK.
Sorry for my english, I hope u understood me.