Develop Bugs

Note to NOOBS. You're really annoying. READ!

Attention NOOBS. I'm becoming less patient with your posts that include whining and redundancy. This forum isn't here to provide you with all the comforts of your carrier. These roms and installing them is for people who are advanced users of WM. If you need your device for work and you're new to PocketPCs this isn't the place for you. These roms aren't for you so please stick to your carriers’ rom.
WM6 is new. SO NEW that Third-Party app developers haven't gotten all their fixes in. Our ROM chefs aren't responsible for those errors. Research and develop a fix, wait until someone develops a fix, or wait for the app developer...But before installing a rom you need to weigh whether or not it is worth it to loose some of your favorite apps. If you must have SPB plus and you read that people are having issues with it don't install the rom UNLESS you want to help find the fix. IF NOT...WAIT until the app developer upgrades their app. Don't install it and then post complaints and threads.
The chefs of these roms aren't here to help you setup your device and to solve all of your issues. If you have issues read, search and fix them. The research is part of the fun...finding fixes is part of the fun. Finding new ways to configure your device and setups is FUN. By asking first you're not participating in the best part of the forum.
As for fixing the "noob" issue...I think there is one pretty good solution.
I think the only way to fix such an issue is to either restrict new users from posting in the the WM6 forums for a period of time after joining. Hopefully you'll use that period of time to read. Because if you choose to install a rom and you know you can't ask a question you'll probably be more apt to read.
I'm not anti-noob. I was a noob once and I am still a noob in many ways. I also know that there are some good noobs in the forum. But I'm tired of taking the time to read the threads for critical information and coming across posts for how to install a new theme or where did the backlight on my keyboard go. That's where your user manual or the HTC website comes in. For Cingular people you have a great resource over @ the Cingular forums.
This is a community of like minded technical individuals. This is not HTC tech support or your carriers support. No one here owes you ANYTHING. You install a rom it's on you. If you can't take the responsibility then don't install the rom. It's pretty simple really.
I just had to get that off my chest. I'm sick and cranky but that only played a small role.
Again TIP YOUR CHEF!!!!! and donate to XDA. To all of you that make this a interactive vibrant technical-minded environment THANK YOU!
X (donning flame suit)

Helping is useless you just get bashed for it. Instead of putting useless programs that the "chef" uses they could spend that time using the carrier files located in the rom kitchen to help out users which takes all of what 3 minutes if that to recompile for a carrier. This would be much more productive then *****ing when someone tries to help by doing that. It's a joke suggesting someone help when they get nothing but grief and sarcasm when they do.

the time it takes to put "useless" apps in a rom is about 40 seconds.
99.9percent of the time is spent on optimizing the OS to ensure i runs efficiently and stable.
Carrier settings are a big no no as the ROMS being developed should be portable from one carrier to another. the perosn who installs the ROM should know what their carrier settings are etc.... not the ROM chefs.
EDIT: there is a fine line between "helping" (ie developing a fix and posting it in the official rom thread) as compared to re-releasing the hard work that went into optimizing wm6 etc and just adding one XML customization (what you did)
Also note, that recompiling a compressed ROM will cause issues to the people that have installed it. you must decompile the original OS.nb that hasnt been compressed.

jasjamming said:
the time it takes to put "useless" apps in a rom is about 40 seconds.
99.9percent of the time is spent on optimizing the OS to ensure i runs efficiently and stable.
Carrier settings are a big no no as the ROMS being developed should be portable from one carrier to another. the perosn who installs the ROM should know what their carrier settings are etc.... not the ROM chefs.
EDIT: there is a fine line between "helping" (ie developing a fix and posting it in the official rom thread) as compared to re-releasing the hard work that went into optimizing wm6 etc and just adding one XML customization (what you did)
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Yes, you have proved you dont give a **** seeing you post the files that dont work

tell WPbear that and the hundreds of people that got cingular working with that.
And just to remind you its not my job to ensure u set up your carrier. You found a fix, damn mate, post it in the thread.
Although this is an open source community in a way, it is still harmful to the developrs if their work is ripped off without courtesy. ASk first then post later, not post first and hope its ok!

this matter of discussion will stop right now. by the fact that your posts were deleted by mods is a clear sign that you push the boundaries of helping.

jasjamming said:
this matter of discussion will stop right now. by the fact that your posts were deleted by mods is a clear sign that you push the boundaries of helping.
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You must have missed the part where I could care less if they were or not? Who are you to say when this will or will not stop? I could care less if you have more pull here or not the forum is bullsit pulling favortism.
/story

xultar said:
Attention NOOBS. I'm becoming less patient with your posts that include whining and redundancy. This forum isn't here to provide you with all the comforts of your carrier. These roms and installing them is for people who are advanced users of WM. If you need your device for work and you're new to PocketPCs this isn't the place for you. These roms aren't for you so please stick to your carriers’ rom.
......
Again TIP YOUR CHEF!!!!! and donate to XDA. To all of you that make this a interactive vibrant technical-minded environment THANK YOU!
X (donning flame suit)
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I agree with you that people shouldn't have complained too much on this and that regarding the ROMs cooked by our good fellows.
However I believe there is a better way pursuading people instead of yelling here, in this way you are not much different from those people.
Also you make sounds like it's a must to donate. Well I believe ROM chefs were doing this voluntarily without any intension to collect money. It would be nice for people to donate as a kind of support, but putting it this way may have make it sounds like there are financial motivations behind this ROM cooking thihg.
Anyway, well done CHEFs, keep it up.

AdamZhang said:
I agree with you that people shouldn't have complained too much on this and that regarding the ROMs cooked by our good fellows.
However I believe there is a better way pursuading people instead of yelling here, in this way you are not much different from those people.
Also you make sounds like it's a must to donate. Well I believe ROM chefs were doing this voluntarily without any intension to collect money. It would be nice for people to donate as a kind of support, but putting it this way may have make it sounds like there are financial motivations behind this ROM cooking thihg.
Anyway, well done CHEFs, keep it up.
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no its not a must to donate... but its nice to be appreciated especially when the 'CHEF' has spend hours upon hours of his time and experience to benefit the community... honestly where would we be without these guys??? we would have locked handsets and be stuck with crappy carrier ROM's...

Hmmm
The noobs who post the ridiculous questions that have been answered many times before are (by their very nature) highly unlikely to read or care about this thread.....
Whilst I agree with some of the underlying points (read the wiki and the threads, use the search function etc) surely the more people who get interested in these devices, the wider they will be available and the better support etc from the carriers and htc will be available, meaning people here can spend more time developing rather than fixing bugs? The initial post just reads as if basically if you are not an experienced developer then you can just **** off. Not sure if (a) that is how it was meant or (b) that is the majority view.

Me thinks that xultar and custel need to grow up! Although you both evidently came into this as experts(sic), some others did not have your apparent vast wealth of experience to fall back on. To insult senior members, mods, and our chefs is unacceptable behavior! I, and I am sure others, are hoping to see you go!
The search functions can be a bit of a challenge....LOL, but insults and criticism are not needed.....Do us all a favor and just leave!
Okay.....there's my 4 cents worth..........
Later

NOOBS are ok i guess, but I like like BOOBS much more! We need more BOOBS around here! ;-)

cruiserman said:
NOOBS are ok i guess, but I like like BOOBS much more! We need more BOOBS around here! ;-)
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Even better NOOBS with BOOBS,

ElGato65 said:
Even better NOOBS with BOOBS,
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... or boobs with noobs

ROFLMAO!!!

Same song, different forums. Yes, the noobs need to read the wiki and learn more, but we've all been there and need to remember what it was like getting yelled at in the forums. Yes, some of the "experts" think they're on a pedestal and can be huge jerks, but they've seen the same 10 questions about 1000 times and they help create noob resources like the wiki and the cool roms. Most of us are sitting in the middle just watching both sides screaming and thinking, "it's just a forum, wtf?"
I realize that the real issue began because of all the noobs bricking their phones trying to do things they don't fully understand and the animosity that comes from the ROM archive being removed as an indirect result. In case no one has noticed, this is not exactly an underground site and has become pretty popular with the increasing popularity of HTC products and the fine work that many of the contributors here have done. (Not to mention all the ppc sites that have linked to this one.)
The original post had some good points and I think was well-intended, however, Custel and Jasjamming decided to bring their personal beef with each other into it. If you two would like to argue with each other, feel free to use the private message function. Neither of you are helping this topic and only furthering the idea that a low post count means you're flame bait and a high post count means that you're allowed to tell people what they can and cannot post openly in the threads despite not being a mod. The moral here? We're all part of the same community here, so stop pissing on the neighbor's flowers and just tell him calmly that you're allergic while keeping in mind the other neighbors might like them.
As for the noobs destroying their phones with software they didn't understand and asking really simple over-asked questions, maybe we should make a quiz of basic information that pertains to each model and the information needed to do basic mods to them that all members have to answer with a certain percentage of success before allowing posts or access to download links (exluding a few basic forums). Each group that's active enough could make up their own pop quiz (Hermes, Trinity, etc...). All questions sourced from the wiki of course. Just a thought, since the only other suggestion seems to be to scream at the new guys and tell them to read (and search, which btw, really sucks on most forums since you have to know exactly what you're searching for to find anything useful in many cases).

having successfully upgraded several different models of HTC device to WinMo6 I know that there's very little risk from the process and a hell of a lot to gain.
Nobody here with a new-ish handset that's considering the upgrade is destitute and penniless, considering what the devices cost I'm beginning to wonder why donations to either the chefs or XDA devs isn't the norm...
Seriously, there are a lot of tight bastards around here, more than there are 'new' users who can't be arsed to use the search before opening the 30th thread asking for help on the exact same issue.

Post from a NOOB
Guys,
Let me give you a viewpoint from a NOOB. I would not call myself technically challenged nor lazy, but definitely new to this wonderful forum where some people who are way more cooler than me have found ways to help me make better use of my handheld than what I had stock.
Yes, I read the Hermes wiki checked through all (or the threads I thought were relevant) to make sure that this was something I wanted to (and could) do without bricking my expensive device. Even though I thought I read quite a lot, and did everything the wiki said, after I did something I could not verify whether what I did worked or not (like the time I SuperCID-ed my phone and did not know what the steps where to confirm it happened). So I ask. Some times people answer my questions, sometime they dont.
Yes, noobs need to know not to quote large message chunks, they need to read before they ask. I agree to all that. But some people say things like if you are not technical dont even bother to be here, that's insulting.
Though I read and re-read Xultar's initial post and I did not see anything there that really insulted me. I think he had a valid point that if you think you are faint of heart, please stick to your carrier's forum. These forums and this great site is for those adventurers (it just gives me an ego boost to think that way ;-)) who like to go where no man has gone before.
I have been here probably 2 weeks, and I feel like I found a place where I can belong. I just wish I were cool enough to really cook some ROMS. But I think I can get started in small ways.
Jasjamming, I understand your frustration when people take what you have taken great pains in doing and then repackage it, especially without your permission. No excuses for that. But it does not behoove for someone of your stature in this community to bad mouth people. I (and am sure more noobs like me) look up to people like you, kyphur and LVSW who can do things that most of us can just dream about. Just let go or I am sure that the moderators of this forum can remove those posts without much problem.
Sorry for the long rant, but I like this place. And felt I had to weigh in on this conversation.

CUSTEL said:
You must have missed the part where I could care less if they were or not? Who are you to say when this will or will not stop? I could care less if you have more pull here or not the forum is bullsit pulling favortism.
/story
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its not about pulling favoritism, its about respect... if you want to use someone else's work for your own then ask permission from the creator and give credit where credits due... the chefs work hard on what they do, kyphur, jasjamming, etc.. all of them.. spend countless hours developing cooked roms for everyone, donations or not.. If you dont like the rules of the community then there are other boards you can point your browser to. Most of the times when you ask permission then the chef will be more than happy to lend you a hand...
Now everyone play nice or find a different board.

shogunmark said:
its not about pulling favoritism, its about respect... if you want to use someone else's work for your own then ask permission from the creator and give credit where credits due... the chefs work hard on what they do, kyphur, jasjamming, etc.. all of them.. spend countless hours developing cooked roms for everyone, donations or not.. If you dont like the rules of the community then there are other boards you can point your browser to. Most of the times when you ask permission then the chef will be more than happy to lend you a hand...
Now everyone play nice or find a different board.
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Please delete this thread. I'll send a PM to a Mod as well.
Thanks.

WM6 ROM chefs and modifiers - your input please - I've got an idea...

I'm setting up a development server, and am willing to offer a development environment for those who are cooking up the ROMs. My thought is simple - to unite the core development if it's possible (although I find it somewhat difficult to believe that it is, after seeing the hostility that's flying around at the moment!). I may well expand this later, after a trial project, but I was wondering if the actual cookers would be interested in closed access to a development system (e.g. Subversion access, a development environment such as Trac, mailing lists and/or basic discussion forum, automated ROM builds etc).
My thoughts were along the lines of a centralised core system, with optional extras and customisations by the cookers as they desire, but I don't know if that's compatible with the objectives of the chefs. They'd be able to branch the core code, and add their own customisations, then release as usual.
I'm also thinking about offering repositories for the various extras, like the HTC home plugin if desired, Audio Manager, etc. Obviously they'd need packaging into cabs (possibly automatable? I'm not sure) or integrating into a release. There'd also be the availability of version control for rolling back changes if things break, and the opportunity for chefs to allow assistants to help with the code.
Sound appealing at all to any of you fine chefs? I'd just like to see efforts united rather than competing, although I'm all for interesting and varying releases! If not, I'll crawl back under a large rock and hide from the flamethrowers pointing my way even as I type this
Thinking initially of offering it to the Hermes chefs, and if it works here, to the other chefs for other devices.
Just a thought, anyway. Feedback welcomed.

I'd be willing to trial that

Admirable thought, N2A, and while it sounds great in theory I can't help but think it could end up evolving into a monumental administrative task for one or more members of an otherwise volunteer community. Let's face it, nobody is getting rich here, we each have lives outside of XDA, and "real" jobs to attend to as well. That said, I shall keep an open mind and an eye on where this is going...
IMO the current "strife" could be easily curbed via moderation (and thankfully we're seeing some hints of that as of late). By and large I believe everyone's intentions here are good, and should a moderator determine they aren't it's quite easy for them to "shut 'er down" as it were. "Top-tier" chefs need to be respected and acknowledged, and we must remember that without them the rest of us have nothing. Here again, if they don't like the direction things are taking, they should work through the moderators to affect a change. Moderators, we members also count on you to keep the developer flavor of the forum at the forefront!
It really could be quite simple, you see...
Perhaps it would be helpful to reiterate who the moderators of the Hermes forum are? You all keep a rather low profile (which is good), but people also need to know who's in charge.

I would be willing to give it a run...

OT: Fact check!
austinsnyc said:
I would be willing to give it a run...
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Even though you've just announced that you're leaving XDA?
austinsnyc said:
I was nice i thought you wont be seeing much more off me as I'm sure you are happy to hear I will be taking my fixes and roms to another forum. thank you for the moderation
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(From gfy.zapto.org) Hey out there as you know I will be posting my releases and fixes on this forum only from now on!! this is the new WM6 place to be
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So which is it going to be?

vp3G... you really know how to rub salt into some wounds.
As for this, I would love to give it a trial too.

bernardryan said:
vp3G... you really know how to rub salt into some wounds.
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Not the intent in the least... merely trying to make some sense of the chaos.

Fingerspitzengefühl
vp3G said:
Not the intent in the least... merely trying to make some sense of the chaos.
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Hi, in the german language we use a word called "Fingerspitzengefühl" which means something like instinctive feel or having a very good sense in the fingertips.
What you responsed was without Fingerspitzengefühl
When I saw that austinsnyc wants to give it a try it seemed to me as a chance to STOP hostility.
If you are uncertain how he meant it you can ask him in a more friendly way - or how long shall this fighting go on?

This is a great idea, I would be willing to help out as time permits with family life, although I tend to spend alot more time on here than I probably should. As for the extra stuff, putting extras into packages for the ROM would be easier than automated cab files. You would be able to pick and choose which packages would best suit the needs of the chef(s). This really could eliminate alot of the animosity that has been going on in the forum. In addition a core group of testers could also be something to be considered, testers that you know have knowledge and would be able to give proper feedback. Having the core chefs together I am sure would produce some incredible ROM's. It would be nice to see happen.

pronor said:
What you responsed was without Fingerspitzengefühl
When I saw that austinsnyc wants to give it a try it seemed to me as a chance to STOP hostility.
If you are uncertain how he meant it you can ask him in a more friendly way - or how long shall this fighting go on?
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Perhaps you missed my point. Someone who has announced (with hyperbolic flourish) their intent to move exclusively to some other forum has no business participating in programs at this one. Reaping here and sowing elsewhere doesn't sit well with me and I can't imagine it will with lvsw, either.
Enough is enough already.

vp3G you are right on the money...
but yes...id love to help out in anyway i can...

vp3G said:
Perhaps you missed my point. Someone who has announced (with hyperbolic flourish) their intent to move exclusively to some other forum has no business participating in programs at this one. Reaping here and sowing elsewhere doesn't sit well with me and I can't imagine it will with lvsw, either.
Enough is enough already.
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good point vp3G but your comments about LVSW make me laugh as he is a hypocrit reaping the benefits of someone elses ROMs and naming them "LVSW (insert date here)"
did i let the cat out of the bag..... ? oh no, here comes trouble.......

The truth is that it's all about people taking other bits of ROMs, originally manufacturers or leaked ROMs, and customising Them. At the end of the day, nobody can claim "ownership" to it. I just want to provide a central platform where people can develop together, kill some of the animosity, and stop the *****ing somewhat. The last part I see as being the most difficult.
Please can we try to keep this thread on topic, rather than having it degenerate like so many others on here are! The point is to see if we can get developers co-operating, not trying to piss them off even more.
JJ, you interested in a co-operative development platform?

N2A said:
The truth is that it's all about people taking other bits of ROMs, originally manufacturers or leaked ROMs, and customising Them. At the end of the day, nobody can claim "ownership" to it. I just want to provide a central platform where people can develop together, kill some of the animosity, and stop the *****ing somewhat. The last part I see as being the most difficult.
Please can we try to keep this thread on topic, rather than having it degenerate like so many others on here are! The point is to see if we can get developers co-operating, not trying to piss them off even more.
JJ, you interested in a co-operative development platform?
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Hey N2A, afraid not as I am at 4winmobile.com now and active members of this forum should benefit from your platform.
I still visit this site occasionally.

Pity, I'd have liked to have had you on board!
Still, open offer, maybe in the future once it takes off

vp3G said:
Perhaps you missed my point. Someone who has announced (with hyperbolic flourish) their intent to move exclusively to some other forum has no business participating in programs at this one. Reaping here and sowing elsewhere doesn't sit well with me and I can't imagine it will with lvsw, either.
Enough is enough already.
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Amen, well said.

jasjamming said:
good point vp3G but your comments about LVSW make me laugh as he is a hypocrit reaping the benefits of someone elses ROMs and naming them "LVSW (insert date here)"
did i let the cat out of the bag..... ? oh no, here comes trouble.......
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Ohhh no the master has spoken
Same old JJ calling names, Seriously why do you trash people so much? You think you are the best one out there and have your head up your anus so far up you lost the sense of respect for others. Stop being so cocky just because you cooked a rom or two that personally i think they are worst then wm5. All this drama of I'M LEAVING GOOD BYE! If you left XDA do you still have to trash people here?
The problem is there are allot of followers for every cook and they ass kiss so much that they turn this forum into a war zone.
Now let the bashing start since this is what i expect from XDA these days anyways

Please stop posting off-topic posts. I'm trying to keep in some sort of order.

I think it's a great idea and highly appreciated that you're willing to put this effor into it. Now if all you guys with bad vibes would just focus on the real reason we all came to this forum in the first place, it'd be fantastic.
Let all the ROM-creative people be creative... and the rest of us... just stay appreciative for what is FREE!!!..
Thanks to all you great chefs out there!..

This reminds me of like a sourceforge project. cool!
I wish I was smart enough to develop.

!!!!!!! Extra Extra Super Ultra New Wm6.1 Version !!!!!!!!!!!!

@Admins, Banish me if you will for this post, but i think it has to be said...
All rom cookers do a great job (i my self use a rom made from them for my Hermes).
But i wonder if it would be better to create much less frequent but also much more stable and bug-less roms.
I can not stop feeling i enter a super market when ever i visit this forum, where you have a multitude of the same products only with a different label, and company's try to sell them as innovative new ones.
Just an opinion.....

Obnoxious Comment
If you do no tlike it or if you are, somehow, displeased you have three options:
1. Simply don't use them
2. Look the other way
3. Leave the Forum
Greetings,

or just cook your own Ideal Rom

Kevlar-Source said:
If you do no tlike it or if you are, somehow, displeased you have three options:
1. Simply don't use them
2. Look the other way
3. Leave the Forum
Greetings,
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Agreed 101%

the whole reason they are frequent is to keep them bug free
or more stable cores etc.
at the end of the day if you dont like it as Kevlar source said - dont come to the forum..
and my 2cents - use an official rom and quit complaining!

Tech world changes every darn minute, no wonder why this forum changes every minute too! Just take what you want and leave the rest alone!! Makes everyone happy!!!!

Junk Thread!!
kingsizeriz said:
the whole reason they are frequent is to keep them bug free
or more stable cores etc.
at the end of the day if you dont like it as Kevlar source said - dont come to the forum..
and my 2cents - use an official rom and quit complaining!
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Totally Agree!

ai6908 said:
Tech world changes every darn minute, no wonder why this forum changes every minute too! Just take what you want and leave the rest alone!! Makes everyone happy!!!!
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+1
amen

... where is JR from Ewing Oil?

There's LEARNING and EXPERIENCES when you have some problem. And here WE are to solve THAT problem together. If you can't make any CONTRIBUTION for this Forum, then STOP complaining and START to be a "USER" and help the author (and other member) to make a better result for all of us.
The point is USE WHAT YOU LIKE but NEVER JUDGE what you don't like .
rgds,
Ermen

Please now that you see you made a or half point please change your title (advanced edit) . It's pity for all the real cookers. Thanks

i like the roms... and the most are stable enough.
i know this isn't the right section, but it had to be said:
i don't like the way the roms are presented in this forum.
for example the title of the topics. it's so chaotic. on every title is "update" but in real they are so old.
another example: there are topics sticky which are one year old. and nobody needs them.
correct me if i'm wrong that nobody needs them. for example again: the rom kitchen of bepe. the images are also down of that topic.
but i like the roms and i am happy that this great forum exists XD but this forum could be better, if the topics were more coherent.
*sry for bad english*

I happen to like seeing all of the new rom postings. It's a great way to see what new software is out there, along with I cannot cook a rom if my life depened on it. The heck with this guy..
Great job to all rom chefs! Thanks for all the hard work!

Yes, some of these old stickys have out lived their usefullness and just take up space. They need to be reviewed & removed periodically by someone!

Asxetos said:
... you have a multitude of the same products only with a different label, and company's try to sell them as innovative new ones.
Just an opinion.....
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the biggest problem with your statement is that you're expecting something with no cost (read: free) as if you do with commercial products.
it's like expecting linux community (or open source community for that matter) that they can come up with an absolute software suite like Microsoft's, sure you get 1 option to choose from and you can expect quality and such, the thing is that Gates makes billions off of it while the chefs here don't.

I gotta ask, do you expect someone to make this "PERFECT" rom, or just pull it out of their bum? Thats why this site exists, to try to refine and make the perfect rom. Impossible mission if you ask me as MY perfect rom WON'T be YOURS...
All feed back given goes into making a stable and fast rom BUT that takes time. By the time someone has cooked the "perfect" rom, another core has come along that makes the rom just cooked look bad. Why do you think the chefs keep cooking???
Thank you to all the rom chefs out there.... Love your work.

I'll probably catch H-e-double hockey-stick for saying this, but I half way agree with the post... I definitely appreciate the hard work the chef's put in, and realize that the majority of them never see a dime for their efforts. But it does seem, at times, that some of them are just putting out ROMs as fast as they can with little or no attempt to thoroughly test the stability of what they're about to imply is ok to put on our (expensive) phones. Again - I understand this is time consuming and they cannot possibly test all the combinations of hardware and software configurations, but some ROMs have seemed so instable as to imply they weren't tested *at all*. I think a certain few chefs (eg VP3g) go the extra mile to make sure what they put on here is worthy of this forum.
Having said that, the chefs definitely do us all a great service and I thank them all. I'm a proud holder of an 8525 with a DVH ROM and, as a software developer for the government I'm sure I could cook a ROM... but the point is - I don't have the time or desire... These chefs sacrifice their time so that people like us can (better) enjoy our phones...
That's just my 2c worth.

lol nobody can make a bugless rom.. if you dont like cooked roms use an official one and see how you like that, half the speed, zero features, resets every day, doesnt even work really.

I can't see how topics like this keep getting everyone's attention. I mean the topic's title is one thing and the content is another. People who do nothing and expect/demand everything should not get this kind of attention at all. This topic should be locked asap.
"In Japan, you'd be dead" -- Jet Li (Lethal Weapon 4)

Asxetos said:
@Admins, Banish me if you will for this post, but i think it has to be said...
All rom cookers do a great job (i my self use a rom made from them for my Hermes).
But i wonder if it would be better to create much less frequent but also much more stable and bug-less roms.
I can not stop feeling i enter a super market when ever i visit this forum, where you have a multitude of the same products only with a different label, and company's try to sell them as innovative new ones.
Just an opinion.....
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I really don't understand this attitude. What is the name of this forum? XDA-DEVELOPERS. What does that mean? That means this is a developers forum. And that implies that everything in this forum is in development. All the roms you find here are created by developers for developers. We are the parasites. We are leeching on whatever we find. Most of the time, we don't know what we are leeching on. That is because we are not DEVELOPERS. But that doesn't mean we can teach the DEVELOPERS how to behave. Don't you think that it would be very very cruel to come here, leech on their products and then teach them how to work?

Uncoordinated ROM development efforts

hey guys,
don't know if this is the right place, but because Chefs should read this in first place, the general board seems not the right place either. But this is the same problem with application development either, so developers may read and post too. So not to bother you all furthermore, i'll start right through:
I wonder about
- 50 different ROM development projects (what could be a good sign, if this would not be)
- 48 concurenting projects which do not share know-how (reading statments like: "I will not tell you, what i did to the ROM to archieve...")
- 98 times uncoordinated simultaneous identical work is done(including, not concluding, tools, tweaks, apps, complete roms ...)
Why do we behave like the people because of which we've started this hole thing here? We do keep know-how secret like the builder and oem manufactorers do or did. Instead we should discuss our know how publically and organize our work and efforts as a community and not as individuals. There is enough space for every way of thinkin inside organized structures left (e.g. speed or stability optimized roms, ...) - but what the one project discovers or experiences should be known by the other projects too, that's what is called synergy. We all could profit. Thats the sence of a community. This feeling i miss here a bit to be honest.
And to get concrete i'd suggest further organizational investigations. Some guys did start some already good ideas like a complete guide to dumping, cooking, etc. or a thread where design stuff is listed and linked centrally, or for example the thread where ROM's get tested for speed and space independently. We should take this last idea further and add information to this comparison, about what was done to this ROM's to archieve the projects defined/assigned goals.
This way we could test RoM's concerning to manipulations and would be able to find out what is really happening in our systems (denpenency of [OEM]pakages) and what we can really do to improve a certain goal of tuning.
Furthermore we would not do identical work a thousand times, and so would be able to serve an easy diamond-click-kitchen to the community and last not least to ourself's.
There are not that many intentions possible in RoM development:
Speed
Space
Stability
Gaming
Office
Weird?
... ?
We should now start a thread (and maybe a database) to get our know how organized and start workin together instead of against each other. We (including, not concluding, me ;-) all do owe some guys here in the forums a debt of gratitude for their work and efforts. I'm happy to see that some people are donating, so some guys get a beer payed which is a nice honoration (but no payment). The more i'd be happy if not two developers do the same work simultaneous. Let's get that organized!?
So now i did state some philosophy, followed by some concrete input - now it's your turn to do so ;-)
Best regards
peet

I totally agree.

I do agree with you but this behaviour is found NOT JUST HERE, but in almost all organizations regardless of occupation. Some of us work as a Team more then others but individuality and uniqueness is part of human natures need to be competitive. I really wish we weren't like this.
The purpose for me on this forum is to share my knowledge on to others. I believe most people like to do the same. I think if there are secrets here, then I believe they are kept secrets for branding purposes. To make a name for themselves and to distinguish themselves from the rest.
Based on the post that I have been reading from ROM Threads, I always see chefs thanking each other for sharing. So sharing is happening but maybe not in the most efficient way.
Hmm....hope all these feelings being shared are not taken the wrong way here. Just me thoughts from Psych 101 and my experiences.

band27 said:
So sharing is happening but maybe not in the most efficient way.
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I totally agree.
seeya

hallo,
i have a little problem to understand your thread. 99% of not-understanding is my english and 1% is your long text without any .. ähhm .. development.
can you say me in one sentence and no more than 10 words what you want?
okokur

I'd like to take the opportunity to say thanks to the majority who do share. A couple of months ago, to flash meant only showing off, and cooking was just for a good meal. With the upgrading, cooking tutorials, wiki and dozens of helpful replies to questions, I'm on my way to cooking my first ROM. Just wish I knew more to contribute something more technical myself. This board has some of the most helpful threads I've found. Thanks once again.

I agree, but there are a couple of problems with this.
1.) some people just don't want to work in a team.
2.) today, those who flash on a daily basis know all (or at least their favorite) Chefs by name, and what their ROM contains. This would be lost.
3.) continuing the previous thought, Chefs would lose motivation, if their name was one of 38 people who made the ROM, in the "credits".
4.) donations. would you spare 5-10$ each chef who contributed? that'll be one pricy Rom
I'm sure there are other problems with this as well, these are just of the top of my head..
but, I do support the idea, the development looks unefficient. At least from a users' point of view..
I've just reread your post, maybe i didn't quite get it. Do you mean something like a thread where all the new knowhows would be listed (though, WIKI is probably better).

slovoflud said:
though, WIKI is probably better
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That's exactly what I thought after reading the opening post
A wiki doesnt force anyone to do anything, but those who want to share their knowledge do have one central place to do so. Probably would reduce the amount of 'stupid' questions as well, or am I the only one who doesnt feel like searching through a ****load of topics for answers

I really like this idea
I hope that rom developers starts working together, providing even better roms for the users
that would be great!

yes shure, wiki would be the right place to centralize know-how, the problem with the wiki is that most information doesn't get there. I mean, there is no board around containing this know-how that xda does. but this know-how must be searched first in thousands of threads and millions of posts. and that is hard work,guys.
i just changed from a Mteor to a Diamond and had to invest several days (or have it been weeks?) to get the story in the diamond wiki/boards. one problem is that a lot of outdated information is found and second that information is split that hard. and likewise know-how is split apart.
then i realized most times when i searched for some information, i found hits in kaiser or raphael or somewhere else forum. too there seems to be organized projects workin together in those places.
In Diamond board only few kitchen are found, and not really a lot information about them either. I tested some, but only one was able to build a RoM out of the box. And i remembered Kaiser kitchen and wondered why this is not possible here likewise. While searchin for information i had to realize that here is no kitchen found documented enough to start building my own RoM in a nutshell nor in 3 days, possibly in a week but realistic it'll be in a month maybe. all that just because i wanted my next device to be theftsafe (because providers do everything to keep that thing running as nobody does something [what shure would/and was possible] against stolen devices - no, they do not get excluded from networks (except very few providers) - nor do they get excluded international or worldwide. You may think now, okay then let your device be trackable through services like PiCO. Even that is ratted or hindered by providers, but that is another story.
About the money mentioned above: I was lost in the opinion i would be surfin a community here, which is something where money does not exist really. I am glad that people did donate for a bricked chefs device for example, and i appreciate donations to well doing developers and chefs, but this can't be a point in discussing a communities life or behaviour. But if you are thinkin this way (and i still don't know what you want here then), then please think a step further and realize that: If you offer (maybe as xda-organization or other) a workin kitchen for daus, where contents and trimming can get selected, licence information can get added and that all gets build in a "personalized" RoM, MAN a thousands of people would be even willing to pay a hundred bucks for that. And i bet even on donation basis there would be enough money to share. But back to community.
Some ingenious anonymous teacher did ask me above, what i'd want then, in one sentence. I can tell ya - i want a snicker right now. Thanks for your contribution to the community development. It's that helpful as those "you should use the search" statements of people tired of tellin people same info twice, while not gettin tired of tellin people that they would be tired of them askin tiring questions. Ey guys you really bore, ääh get me tired ;-)
But to get concrete again, i think because of the wide range of device configurations and languages it would be good to develop ONE kitchen together, where it is possible to select a source for building freely (e.g. your own RoM, a Chefs RoM, a providers RoM, or whatever), then give possibilty to change language, select tec. specs like pagefile, etc., select packages to exclude, apps and licences to include, select design patches, CFC and other tweaks, select tweaks and last not least burn your RoM.
That'd be kickin ass guys doesn't it?

I know it would nice to have just one ROM developed, but then again this is reality, people have different preferences. I am sure Chefs share their recipes between themselves.
anyway, u guys may wanna check this out
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=469420
ervius have done a fine job there.

Kudos.
I completly agreed with your point. Ive seen a lot of ROMS from wanabe cheffs and others that are from great chefs which enhance the OS deaply. Its sad to see comments that not help in the evolution of our devices. Ive not many Mods around, perhaps most of them got their hands on the HD.
On the other hand everyone must be able to post any Cooked ROM they want, but they have to make sure that something is different about othe developements, like Language, or included APPS or particular tweaks.

the way i see it - MOST chefs don't do cooking for public... they cook for their own need and according to what they like - then they share with the public... there's nothing wrong with that... and they don't need to share anything...
and i have noticed they always help you out if you send them a private message.
my two cents

cloudedhopes said:
the way i see it - MOST chefs don't do cooking for public... they cook for their own need and according to what they like - then they share with the public... there's nothing wrong with that... and they don't need to share anything...
and i have noticed they always help you out if you send them a private message.
my two cents
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I used to think like that too, not anymore.
Vise versa.
If you read any thread with a 'popular' ROM, it's easy to see that it's not made for Chefs personal use( perhaps it was originally, but then it becomes a project).

hi all,
first i have to state that i shure do not want to force anybody to nothing. but i see too much people doin identical investigations. therefore i wanted to ask for others opiinion.
somebody sayed, that people might not want to work together wich sounds kind of weird in a community while shure nobody gets forced to share, equal if know-how or work. and somebody said that chefs want to read their name above their work or thdy would loose interest to do something. if those peoples interest or motivation is only to distinguish themselfes it would be sad, but no prob-let them do so on their own.
me would like a ROM without my name, but which is realy coool a lot more.
so first point would be, that all chefs write their know-how down in the wiki, so we can see which way we should start making a universall ROM which can then get tweaked and ppersonalized individually but the base is always the same for all. if the base is really good, all people could profit from that BaseROM!
at the moment i cant see which packages are corresponding to others and cant get removed easily. tooo it would be nice if nataly chef would tell us how he did free that much space, e.g.
maybe some chefs are willing to join, so we start a real universal RoM-Kitchen?

i red ervuis thread only short, but that sounds in the right direction, i'll contact him and ask for support.
the main thing first would be to get real good structures (like ervius started) to build a minimum basicRoM which then can get extended - and we need some more input about flash/nand/rom/pagefile/etc use and manipulation.
lets do this organized and structured not to do the same things a hundred times, and to avoid all those incompatibilities between apps found here (in comination a lot even common apps do interact and the result over both/all is a non working configuration. therefore a "standard" should get found for tweaking, cooking and applications too.
how about that?

hallo,
i have a little problem ...
i asked you what you mean and wish the answer with less than 10 words.
you want so much from other people but you give nothing. if i read your thread at first time, i think about you, that what you write is not that what you really want. i think you have problems with cooking and you hope on an easy way become solution.
one kitchen means, one way to extract, one way to cook ... like a one way with no return. if you have trouble with this one kitchen, nobody can or will help you.
i flashed my first pda three years ago, now i have pda number 4 and i cooked my own roms. the reason, why i dont share it, i used original buyed software by softmaker, coreplayer and sktools with integrated registration-keys/methods. this was orig.software and cant be for sharing.
i dont think, that i can learn this things with one kitchen, with one group, with one project. i have to thank for so much people, who spend nights of nights alone for cooking and sharing.
and if i can help somebody, so i do it. but in xda-developers it was not so easy to help someone, because there so so much people who was faster than me ... much much fuster. god safes the "aloning".

Well, okokur, you have a point, but only to a certain degree. You say about bought licenses, that shouldn't be shared. Fair point, but be consequent, and look further. From the legal point of view, 99% of cooks don't write the code - they only manipulate dumped software - and it's hard to say if this is legal. Sooooo... what I'm pointing at?
That this way or the other, everybody is to him/herself. I only don't understand why some chefs are locking their roms against uncooking - it's like you stole a car, and put an alarm on it against thieves.... Ridiculous.
All cooks should take example from people liek CT or mondilv, who share openly their develpoment. And that's the way. If you are just a bit inclined, you can start cooking yourself. If you are not, you will lazily wait for a rom done for you, and complain about what is in rom, what isn't, etc..
So - my advice/opinion - you will never get cooperation like you wish, because that's human nature. But it would be enough, if cooks would leave their roms open - then people who want to learn, would learn.

I can only agree... for what I can do due to lack of time I always publish the full kitchen source in my/our repository, so the rom isn't just opened but I publish the full kitchen tree with all scripts almost commented and/or other useful stuff
If I can help in other ways please just write down a line
bye,
davide

mjaxa said:
Well, okokur, you have a point, but only to a certain degree. You say about bought licenses, that shouldn't be shared. Fair point, but be consequent, and look further. From the legal point of view, 99% of cooks don't write the code - they only manipulate dumped software - and it's hard to say if this is legal. Sooooo... what I'm pointing at?
That this way or the other, everybody is to him/herself. I only don't understand why some chefs are locking their roms against uncooking - it's like you stole a car, and put an alarm on it against thieves.... Ridiculous.
All cooks should take example from people liek CT or mondilv, who share openly their develpoment. And that's the way. If you are just a bit inclined, you can start cooking yourself. If you are not, you will lazily wait for a rom done for you, and complain about what is in rom, what isn't, etc..
So - my advice/opinion - you will never get cooperation like you wish, because that's human nature. But it would be enough, if cooks would leave their roms open - then people who want to learn, would learn.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you are right.
i think, i can share my rom without buyed software ... but for diamond there was so much roms, thats no needed share a rom without any interesting features.
recooking roms not possible ... for flasher only its enough. for cookers exists a trash-folder on desktop
cooperation like my wish ... i am to old for other oppinnions so i respect other oppinnions for 100%. (its reading like type mismatch error )
if i start with flashing and later i want cooking but that was to much infos and to much rules for cooking ... that i wish ONE KITCHEN with GFX-USING by klicking "KLICK-KLCK" and NO-ERRORS and NO-BLACK-SCREENS ... And if i read this thread the first time, i see me three years ago
i understand peetx for 100%

How safe are the ROMs many of us are flashing?

We are all flashing these ROMs, one after another, yet I have read little about security. How sure can we be that those who are making these ROMs are not adding a little something extra for themselves? Is it possible that this could happen without users knowing?
Please DO NOT make the assumption that I am trying to cast doubt on any of those who cook the ROMs we use, mostly without any compensation, as I appreciate their work as much as anyone here. I think that the question being asked is completely fair. I am asking because I do not yet have the technical ability to tell for myself nor would I know what someone who wanted to know would look for. Please keep this in mind if you choose to respond.
Thanks!

What makes you think HTC didnt add something extra?

pinhead said:
We are all flashing these ROMs, one after another, yet I have read little about security. How sure can we be that those who are making these ROMs are not adding a little something extra for themselves? Is it possible that this could happen without users knowing?
Please DO NOT make the assumption that I am trying to cast doubt on any of those who cook the ROMs we use, mostly without any compensation, as I appreciate their work as much as anyone here. I think that the question being asked is completely fair. I am asking because I do not yet have the technical ability to tell for myself nor would I know what someone who wanted to know would look for. Please keep this in mind if you choose to respond.
Thanks!
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The fantastic ROM´s made by our great Chefs here at XDA are much better than any "official" ROM
I feel even safer with cooked ROM´s on my devices
Thank to this work (XDA, Chefs & Devs) is that WM is an enjoyable OS!
If not a lot of us would have moved to another platform...

I also agree!!! Cooked ROMs are great to use......However you need to do some reading to have them as per your requirements.

Good question
pinhead said:
We are all flashing these ROMs, one after another, yet I have read little about security. How sure can we be that those who are making these ROMs are not adding a little something extra for themselves? Is it possible that this could happen without users knowing?
Please DO NOT make the assumption that I am trying to cast doubt on any of those who cook the ROMs we use, mostly without any compensation, as I appreciate their work as much as anyone here. I think that the question being asked is completely fair. I am asking because I do not yet have the technical ability to tell for myself nor would I know what someone who wanted to know would look for. Please keep this in mind if you choose to respond.
Thanks!
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Click to collapse
Actually, that's an interesting question and whilst I doubt there are any chefs contributing on XDA with the mindset of compromising any user's confidentiality, I have no doubt in my mind that it's possible for a dishonest individual to have a crack, so to speak.
Some time ago, an XDA contributer (chetstriker) wrote an application called 'Phone Creeper', which whilst having many useful functions for the user, also sparked some controversy for its trojan-style capabilities. Just to give an example, Phone Creeper could theoretically be 'cooked' into a ROM and used against the handset owner, without their knowledge.
I'm sure there are many more possibilities to compromise security, and as diligent members, we should research a ROM thread before flashing willy-nilly. It's quite easy to get a feel for any chef's credibility based on their history and following.

I think that the short answer for you is... we dont REALLY know. Only a small percentage of people here understand the underlying details and complexities of a ROM.
So yes, theoretically, a chef cook put in 'stuff' which has evil uses.
But...
1) Almost all (if not all) chefs on XDA cook their ROM's because they love doing so. its not as if anyone is making any real money cooking these ROM's.
2) Its not as if phones could be used in some denial of service or mass spamming or whatever attack like drone computers. Maybe if you had THOUSANDS of phones, but in reality, the number of people installing these customs ROM's on their phones is a small fraction of the phone user population.
3) Most chefs care very deeply about the quality of their product. If anyone even so much as suspected something fishy going on, well, that would be the end of anyone using that ROM.

The Surgeon General has determined that cooked ROMs do not cause cancer and no animals were injured in their development.

As with anything there are allways risks involved.
It would not be difficult at all for a chef to cook spyware or worse into their roms.
It would be simple to compromise someones system in this manner and any amount of detail could be obtained by someone who wished to do so.
As with everything, your own due-dilligence and common sense come into play here. You download software all the time from the Net without knowing for sure if there is spyware or trojans embedded within that software.
If you are that concerned then I suggest that you clue yourself up on how the chefs cook and what to look for in the roms to identify these issues for yourself.
There are plenty of WinMo AV products that can help minimise the risks to your system being compromised and there are many steps you yourself can take. The first being to undertsnad the rom structure and the nature and working of WinMo.
Identify legitimate services and processes and have an understanding of the registry.
There are many "trusted" sources here in the forums but there is always a bad "apple" too (I like that pun.... Iphone is a good example of a bad apple )
Common sense always prevails, this is a community whereby we all share our knowledge and understanding of all things WinMo and HTC, read the forums, ask questions and gain your own knowledge therby making you capable of making your own judgements instead of asking others to make them for you
Cheers,
Beasty

Another reassurance is that most chefs look at other chefs ROM's (especially the bigger more popular ROMs). If anyone on here, be it another chef, or a techy user trying to debug an issue, noticed anything untoward, that would be the end of the Chef on xda and anywhere else they posted.
Regards,
Dave

brynweb said:
Some time ago, an XDA contributer (chetstriker) wrote an application called 'Phone Creeper', which whilst having many useful functions for the user, also sparked some controversy for its trojan-style capabilities. Just to give an example, Phone Creeper could theoretically be 'cooked' into a ROM and used against the handset owner, without their knowledge.
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I haven't looked at the phone creeper thread in a while, but last time I did, a person would have needed the number of the device it was on before it could be utilized against them.