Attention NOOBS. I'm becoming less patient with your posts that include whining and redundancy. This forum isn't here to provide you with all the comforts of your carrier. These roms and installing them is for people who are advanced users of WM. If you need your device for work and you're new to PocketPCs this isn't the place for you. These roms aren't for you so please stick to your carriers’ rom.
WM6 is new. SO NEW that Third-Party app developers haven't gotten all their fixes in. Our ROM chefs aren't responsible for those errors. Research and develop a fix, wait until someone develops a fix, or wait for the app developer...But before installing a rom you need to weigh whether or not it is worth it to loose some of your favorite apps. If you must have SPB plus and you read that people are having issues with it don't install the rom UNLESS you want to help find the fix. IF NOT...WAIT until the app developer upgrades their app. Don't install it and then post complaints and threads.
The chefs of these roms aren't here to help you setup your device and to solve all of your issues. If you have issues read, search and fix them. The research is part of the fun...finding fixes is part of the fun. Finding new ways to configure your device and setups is FUN. By asking first you're not participating in the best part of the forum.
As for fixing the "noob" issue...I think there is one pretty good solution.
I think the only way to fix such an issue is to either restrict new users from posting in the the WM6 forums for a period of time after joining. Hopefully you'll use that period of time to read. Because if you choose to install a rom and you know you can't ask a question you'll probably be more apt to read.
I'm not anti-noob. I was a noob once and I am still a noob in many ways. I also know that there are some good noobs in the forum. But I'm tired of taking the time to read the threads for critical information and coming across posts for how to install a new theme or where did the backlight on my keyboard go. That's where your user manual or the HTC website comes in. For Cingular people you have a great resource over @ the Cingular forums.
This is a community of like minded technical individuals. This is not HTC tech support or your carriers support. No one here owes you ANYTHING. You install a rom it's on you. If you can't take the responsibility then don't install the rom. It's pretty simple really.
I just had to get that off my chest. I'm sick and cranky but that only played a small role.
Again TIP YOUR CHEF!!!!! and donate to XDA. To all of you that make this a interactive vibrant technical-minded environment THANK YOU!
X (donning flame suit)
Helping is useless you just get bashed for it. Instead of putting useless programs that the "chef" uses they could spend that time using the carrier files located in the rom kitchen to help out users which takes all of what 3 minutes if that to recompile for a carrier. This would be much more productive then *****ing when someone tries to help by doing that. It's a joke suggesting someone help when they get nothing but grief and sarcasm when they do.
the time it takes to put "useless" apps in a rom is about 40 seconds.
99.9percent of the time is spent on optimizing the OS to ensure i runs efficiently and stable.
Carrier settings are a big no no as the ROMS being developed should be portable from one carrier to another. the perosn who installs the ROM should know what their carrier settings are etc.... not the ROM chefs.
EDIT: there is a fine line between "helping" (ie developing a fix and posting it in the official rom thread) as compared to re-releasing the hard work that went into optimizing wm6 etc and just adding one XML customization (what you did)
Also note, that recompiling a compressed ROM will cause issues to the people that have installed it. you must decompile the original OS.nb that hasnt been compressed.
jasjamming said:
the time it takes to put "useless" apps in a rom is about 40 seconds.
99.9percent of the time is spent on optimizing the OS to ensure i runs efficiently and stable.
Carrier settings are a big no no as the ROMS being developed should be portable from one carrier to another. the perosn who installs the ROM should know what their carrier settings are etc.... not the ROM chefs.
EDIT: there is a fine line between "helping" (ie developing a fix and posting it in the official rom thread) as compared to re-releasing the hard work that went into optimizing wm6 etc and just adding one XML customization (what you did)
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Yes, you have proved you dont give a **** seeing you post the files that dont work
tell WPbear that and the hundreds of people that got cingular working with that.
And just to remind you its not my job to ensure u set up your carrier. You found a fix, damn mate, post it in the thread.
Although this is an open source community in a way, it is still harmful to the developrs if their work is ripped off without courtesy. ASk first then post later, not post first and hope its ok!
this matter of discussion will stop right now. by the fact that your posts were deleted by mods is a clear sign that you push the boundaries of helping.
jasjamming said:
this matter of discussion will stop right now. by the fact that your posts were deleted by mods is a clear sign that you push the boundaries of helping.
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You must have missed the part where I could care less if they were or not? Who are you to say when this will or will not stop? I could care less if you have more pull here or not the forum is bullsit pulling favortism.
/story
xultar said:
Attention NOOBS. I'm becoming less patient with your posts that include whining and redundancy. This forum isn't here to provide you with all the comforts of your carrier. These roms and installing them is for people who are advanced users of WM. If you need your device for work and you're new to PocketPCs this isn't the place for you. These roms aren't for you so please stick to your carriers’ rom.
......
Again TIP YOUR CHEF!!!!! and donate to XDA. To all of you that make this a interactive vibrant technical-minded environment THANK YOU!
X (donning flame suit)
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Click to collapse
I agree with you that people shouldn't have complained too much on this and that regarding the ROMs cooked by our good fellows.
However I believe there is a better way pursuading people instead of yelling here, in this way you are not much different from those people.
Also you make sounds like it's a must to donate. Well I believe ROM chefs were doing this voluntarily without any intension to collect money. It would be nice for people to donate as a kind of support, but putting it this way may have make it sounds like there are financial motivations behind this ROM cooking thihg.
Anyway, well done CHEFs, keep it up.
AdamZhang said:
I agree with you that people shouldn't have complained too much on this and that regarding the ROMs cooked by our good fellows.
However I believe there is a better way pursuading people instead of yelling here, in this way you are not much different from those people.
Also you make sounds like it's a must to donate. Well I believe ROM chefs were doing this voluntarily without any intension to collect money. It would be nice for people to donate as a kind of support, but putting it this way may have make it sounds like there are financial motivations behind this ROM cooking thihg.
Anyway, well done CHEFs, keep it up.
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no its not a must to donate... but its nice to be appreciated especially when the 'CHEF' has spend hours upon hours of his time and experience to benefit the community... honestly where would we be without these guys??? we would have locked handsets and be stuck with crappy carrier ROM's...
Hmmm
The noobs who post the ridiculous questions that have been answered many times before are (by their very nature) highly unlikely to read or care about this thread.....
Whilst I agree with some of the underlying points (read the wiki and the threads, use the search function etc) surely the more people who get interested in these devices, the wider they will be available and the better support etc from the carriers and htc will be available, meaning people here can spend more time developing rather than fixing bugs? The initial post just reads as if basically if you are not an experienced developer then you can just **** off. Not sure if (a) that is how it was meant or (b) that is the majority view.
Me thinks that xultar and custel need to grow up! Although you both evidently came into this as experts(sic), some others did not have your apparent vast wealth of experience to fall back on. To insult senior members, mods, and our chefs is unacceptable behavior! I, and I am sure others, are hoping to see you go!
The search functions can be a bit of a challenge....LOL, but insults and criticism are not needed.....Do us all a favor and just leave!
Okay.....there's my 4 cents worth..........
Later
NOOBS are ok i guess, but I like like BOOBS much more! We need more BOOBS around here! ;-)
cruiserman said:
NOOBS are ok i guess, but I like like BOOBS much more! We need more BOOBS around here! ;-)
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Even better NOOBS with BOOBS,
ElGato65 said:
Even better NOOBS with BOOBS,
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... or boobs with noobs
ROFLMAO!!!
Same song, different forums. Yes, the noobs need to read the wiki and learn more, but we've all been there and need to remember what it was like getting yelled at in the forums. Yes, some of the "experts" think they're on a pedestal and can be huge jerks, but they've seen the same 10 questions about 1000 times and they help create noob resources like the wiki and the cool roms. Most of us are sitting in the middle just watching both sides screaming and thinking, "it's just a forum, wtf?"
I realize that the real issue began because of all the noobs bricking their phones trying to do things they don't fully understand and the animosity that comes from the ROM archive being removed as an indirect result. In case no one has noticed, this is not exactly an underground site and has become pretty popular with the increasing popularity of HTC products and the fine work that many of the contributors here have done. (Not to mention all the ppc sites that have linked to this one.)
The original post had some good points and I think was well-intended, however, Custel and Jasjamming decided to bring their personal beef with each other into it. If you two would like to argue with each other, feel free to use the private message function. Neither of you are helping this topic and only furthering the idea that a low post count means you're flame bait and a high post count means that you're allowed to tell people what they can and cannot post openly in the threads despite not being a mod. The moral here? We're all part of the same community here, so stop pissing on the neighbor's flowers and just tell him calmly that you're allergic while keeping in mind the other neighbors might like them.
As for the noobs destroying their phones with software they didn't understand and asking really simple over-asked questions, maybe we should make a quiz of basic information that pertains to each model and the information needed to do basic mods to them that all members have to answer with a certain percentage of success before allowing posts or access to download links (exluding a few basic forums). Each group that's active enough could make up their own pop quiz (Hermes, Trinity, etc...). All questions sourced from the wiki of course. Just a thought, since the only other suggestion seems to be to scream at the new guys and tell them to read (and search, which btw, really sucks on most forums since you have to know exactly what you're searching for to find anything useful in many cases).
having successfully upgraded several different models of HTC device to WinMo6 I know that there's very little risk from the process and a hell of a lot to gain.
Nobody here with a new-ish handset that's considering the upgrade is destitute and penniless, considering what the devices cost I'm beginning to wonder why donations to either the chefs or XDA devs isn't the norm...
Seriously, there are a lot of tight bastards around here, more than there are 'new' users who can't be arsed to use the search before opening the 30th thread asking for help on the exact same issue.
Post from a NOOB
Guys,
Let me give you a viewpoint from a NOOB. I would not call myself technically challenged nor lazy, but definitely new to this wonderful forum where some people who are way more cooler than me have found ways to help me make better use of my handheld than what I had stock.
Yes, I read the Hermes wiki checked through all (or the threads I thought were relevant) to make sure that this was something I wanted to (and could) do without bricking my expensive device. Even though I thought I read quite a lot, and did everything the wiki said, after I did something I could not verify whether what I did worked or not (like the time I SuperCID-ed my phone and did not know what the steps where to confirm it happened). So I ask. Some times people answer my questions, sometime they dont.
Yes, noobs need to know not to quote large message chunks, they need to read before they ask. I agree to all that. But some people say things like if you are not technical dont even bother to be here, that's insulting.
Though I read and re-read Xultar's initial post and I did not see anything there that really insulted me. I think he had a valid point that if you think you are faint of heart, please stick to your carrier's forum. These forums and this great site is for those adventurers (it just gives me an ego boost to think that way ;-)) who like to go where no man has gone before.
I have been here probably 2 weeks, and I feel like I found a place where I can belong. I just wish I were cool enough to really cook some ROMS. But I think I can get started in small ways.
Jasjamming, I understand your frustration when people take what you have taken great pains in doing and then repackage it, especially without your permission. No excuses for that. But it does not behoove for someone of your stature in this community to bad mouth people. I (and am sure more noobs like me) look up to people like you, kyphur and LVSW who can do things that most of us can just dream about. Just let go or I am sure that the moderators of this forum can remove those posts without much problem.
Sorry for the long rant, but I like this place. And felt I had to weigh in on this conversation.
CUSTEL said:
You must have missed the part where I could care less if they were or not? Who are you to say when this will or will not stop? I could care less if you have more pull here or not the forum is bullsit pulling favortism.
/story
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its not about pulling favoritism, its about respect... if you want to use someone else's work for your own then ask permission from the creator and give credit where credits due... the chefs work hard on what they do, kyphur, jasjamming, etc.. all of them.. spend countless hours developing cooked roms for everyone, donations or not.. If you dont like the rules of the community then there are other boards you can point your browser to. Most of the times when you ask permission then the chef will be more than happy to lend you a hand...
Now everyone play nice or find a different board.
shogunmark said:
its not about pulling favoritism, its about respect... if you want to use someone else's work for your own then ask permission from the creator and give credit where credits due... the chefs work hard on what they do, kyphur, jasjamming, etc.. all of them.. spend countless hours developing cooked roms for everyone, donations or not.. If you dont like the rules of the community then there are other boards you can point your browser to. Most of the times when you ask permission then the chef will be more than happy to lend you a hand...
Now everyone play nice or find a different board.
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Please delete this thread. I'll send a PM to a Mod as well.
Thanks.
Related
I'm setting up a development server, and am willing to offer a development environment for those who are cooking up the ROMs. My thought is simple - to unite the core development if it's possible (although I find it somewhat difficult to believe that it is, after seeing the hostility that's flying around at the moment!). I may well expand this later, after a trial project, but I was wondering if the actual cookers would be interested in closed access to a development system (e.g. Subversion access, a development environment such as Trac, mailing lists and/or basic discussion forum, automated ROM builds etc).
My thoughts were along the lines of a centralised core system, with optional extras and customisations by the cookers as they desire, but I don't know if that's compatible with the objectives of the chefs. They'd be able to branch the core code, and add their own customisations, then release as usual.
I'm also thinking about offering repositories for the various extras, like the HTC home plugin if desired, Audio Manager, etc. Obviously they'd need packaging into cabs (possibly automatable? I'm not sure) or integrating into a release. There'd also be the availability of version control for rolling back changes if things break, and the opportunity for chefs to allow assistants to help with the code.
Sound appealing at all to any of you fine chefs? I'd just like to see efforts united rather than competing, although I'm all for interesting and varying releases! If not, I'll crawl back under a large rock and hide from the flamethrowers pointing my way even as I type this
Thinking initially of offering it to the Hermes chefs, and if it works here, to the other chefs for other devices.
Just a thought, anyway. Feedback welcomed.
I'd be willing to trial that
Admirable thought, N2A, and while it sounds great in theory I can't help but think it could end up evolving into a monumental administrative task for one or more members of an otherwise volunteer community. Let's face it, nobody is getting rich here, we each have lives outside of XDA, and "real" jobs to attend to as well. That said, I shall keep an open mind and an eye on where this is going...
IMO the current "strife" could be easily curbed via moderation (and thankfully we're seeing some hints of that as of late). By and large I believe everyone's intentions here are good, and should a moderator determine they aren't it's quite easy for them to "shut 'er down" as it were. "Top-tier" chefs need to be respected and acknowledged, and we must remember that without them the rest of us have nothing. Here again, if they don't like the direction things are taking, they should work through the moderators to affect a change. Moderators, we members also count on you to keep the developer flavor of the forum at the forefront!
It really could be quite simple, you see...
Perhaps it would be helpful to reiterate who the moderators of the Hermes forum are? You all keep a rather low profile (which is good), but people also need to know who's in charge.
I would be willing to give it a run...
OT: Fact check!
austinsnyc said:
I would be willing to give it a run...
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Even though you've just announced that you're leaving XDA?
austinsnyc said:
I was nice i thought you wont be seeing much more off me as I'm sure you are happy to hear I will be taking my fixes and roms to another forum. thank you for the moderation
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(From gfy.zapto.org) Hey out there as you know I will be posting my releases and fixes on this forum only from now on!! this is the new WM6 place to be
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So which is it going to be?
vp3G... you really know how to rub salt into some wounds.
As for this, I would love to give it a trial too.
bernardryan said:
vp3G... you really know how to rub salt into some wounds.
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Not the intent in the least... merely trying to make some sense of the chaos.
Fingerspitzengefühl
vp3G said:
Not the intent in the least... merely trying to make some sense of the chaos.
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Hi, in the german language we use a word called "Fingerspitzengefühl" which means something like instinctive feel or having a very good sense in the fingertips.
What you responsed was without Fingerspitzengefühl
When I saw that austinsnyc wants to give it a try it seemed to me as a chance to STOP hostility.
If you are uncertain how he meant it you can ask him in a more friendly way - or how long shall this fighting go on?
This is a great idea, I would be willing to help out as time permits with family life, although I tend to spend alot more time on here than I probably should. As for the extra stuff, putting extras into packages for the ROM would be easier than automated cab files. You would be able to pick and choose which packages would best suit the needs of the chef(s). This really could eliminate alot of the animosity that has been going on in the forum. In addition a core group of testers could also be something to be considered, testers that you know have knowledge and would be able to give proper feedback. Having the core chefs together I am sure would produce some incredible ROM's. It would be nice to see happen.
pronor said:
What you responsed was without Fingerspitzengefühl
When I saw that austinsnyc wants to give it a try it seemed to me as a chance to STOP hostility.
If you are uncertain how he meant it you can ask him in a more friendly way - or how long shall this fighting go on?
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Perhaps you missed my point. Someone who has announced (with hyperbolic flourish) their intent to move exclusively to some other forum has no business participating in programs at this one. Reaping here and sowing elsewhere doesn't sit well with me and I can't imagine it will with lvsw, either.
Enough is enough already.
vp3G you are right on the money...
but yes...id love to help out in anyway i can...
vp3G said:
Perhaps you missed my point. Someone who has announced (with hyperbolic flourish) their intent to move exclusively to some other forum has no business participating in programs at this one. Reaping here and sowing elsewhere doesn't sit well with me and I can't imagine it will with lvsw, either.
Enough is enough already.
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good point vp3G but your comments about LVSW make me laugh as he is a hypocrit reaping the benefits of someone elses ROMs and naming them "LVSW (insert date here)"
did i let the cat out of the bag..... ? oh no, here comes trouble.......
The truth is that it's all about people taking other bits of ROMs, originally manufacturers or leaked ROMs, and customising Them. At the end of the day, nobody can claim "ownership" to it. I just want to provide a central platform where people can develop together, kill some of the animosity, and stop the *****ing somewhat. The last part I see as being the most difficult.
Please can we try to keep this thread on topic, rather than having it degenerate like so many others on here are! The point is to see if we can get developers co-operating, not trying to piss them off even more.
JJ, you interested in a co-operative development platform?
N2A said:
The truth is that it's all about people taking other bits of ROMs, originally manufacturers or leaked ROMs, and customising Them. At the end of the day, nobody can claim "ownership" to it. I just want to provide a central platform where people can develop together, kill some of the animosity, and stop the *****ing somewhat. The last part I see as being the most difficult.
Please can we try to keep this thread on topic, rather than having it degenerate like so many others on here are! The point is to see if we can get developers co-operating, not trying to piss them off even more.
JJ, you interested in a co-operative development platform?
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Hey N2A, afraid not as I am at 4winmobile.com now and active members of this forum should benefit from your platform.
I still visit this site occasionally.
Pity, I'd have liked to have had you on board!
Still, open offer, maybe in the future once it takes off
vp3G said:
Perhaps you missed my point. Someone who has announced (with hyperbolic flourish) their intent to move exclusively to some other forum has no business participating in programs at this one. Reaping here and sowing elsewhere doesn't sit well with me and I can't imagine it will with lvsw, either.
Enough is enough already.
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Amen, well said.
jasjamming said:
good point vp3G but your comments about LVSW make me laugh as he is a hypocrit reaping the benefits of someone elses ROMs and naming them "LVSW (insert date here)"
did i let the cat out of the bag..... ? oh no, here comes trouble.......
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Ohhh no the master has spoken
Same old JJ calling names, Seriously why do you trash people so much? You think you are the best one out there and have your head up your anus so far up you lost the sense of respect for others. Stop being so cocky just because you cooked a rom or two that personally i think they are worst then wm5. All this drama of I'M LEAVING GOOD BYE! If you left XDA do you still have to trash people here?
The problem is there are allot of followers for every cook and they ass kiss so much that they turn this forum into a war zone.
Now let the bashing start since this is what i expect from XDA these days anyways
Please stop posting off-topic posts. I'm trying to keep in some sort of order.
I think it's a great idea and highly appreciated that you're willing to put this effor into it. Now if all you guys with bad vibes would just focus on the real reason we all came to this forum in the first place, it'd be fantastic.
Let all the ROM-creative people be creative... and the rest of us... just stay appreciative for what is FREE!!!..
Thanks to all you great chefs out there!..
This reminds me of like a sourceforge project. cool!
I wish I was smart enough to develop.
Why is allmost every rom on this forum dumplocked?
Do people have something to hide, or is it something else?
Is it mayb that people don't want to share things anymore(the main part where xda thrives on)?
Do the chefs who learned from copying and examining others work have some kind of arrogance, somekind of thought that noone may copy their work?
I personally find this a crappy way of work here on xda.
Any other thoughts on this?
Gr. Bram
Try with my ROMs, nothing is locked.
bram_smulders said:
Why is every rom on this forum dumplocked?
Do people have something to hide, or is it something else?
Is it mayb that people don't want to share things anymore(the main part where xda thrives on)?
Do the chefs who learned from copying and examining others work have some kind of arrogance, somekind of thought that noone may copy their work?
I personally find this a crappy way of work here on xda.
Any other thoughts on this?
Gr. Bram
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This is thin ice you stepped on!
I am a retired Chef myself. I always protected my ROMs from being dumped. The main reason is that packages and tweaks mainly added through the rgus are the result of many many hours of research, countless flashes, testing and work.
Packages are all over the place, so are the cabs.
The majority of tweaks can be found anywhere.
But it's just unfair when a Chef collects everthing he needs for his kitchen throughout time and someone who is just beginning to cook dumps it, replaces a few packages and voila, a new ROM from a new Chef, as good as the old dumped ROM.
It's not about hiding, it's about somehow protecting endless hours of work that just don't pay back.
I know my ROMs were intended for my own use, but somehow decided to share them, I believe most Chefs around here pretty much do the same with their work, so it is a huge favor this sharing.
bram_smulders said:
Why is every rom on this forum dumplocked?
Do people have something to hide, or is it something else?
Is it mayb that people don't want to share things anymore(the main part where xda thrives on)?
Do the chefs who learned from copying and examining others work have some kind of arrogance, somekind of thought that noone may copy their work?
I personally find this a crappy way of work here on xda.
Any other thoughts on this?
Gr. Bram
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Click to collapse
I also find it very strange.... the only reasoning I can think is people don´t want their working copied but hey I completely agree with you it´s a very strange way to work as, certainly for me, this forum has always been about sharing. Sharing knowledge, information, ideas, ROMs, creativity and most of all a passion for these devices... it´s a real shame.
Thankfully though, in my experience, most the experienced chefs here are very willing to help out to us aspiring new chefs with pointers and files we need to build a decent kitchen.
I cook for myself really but ended up releasing a few of my ROMs when I have a bit more time to support them but I must admit I´m not bothered about people re-cooking them if they want. I´m just happy that the peolpe here get the most out of their Diamond.
tnyynt said:
This is thin ice you stepped on!
I am a retired Chef myself. I always protected my ROMs from being dumped. The main reason is that packages and tweaks mainly added through the rgus are the result of many many hours of research, countless flashes, testing and work.
Packages are all over the place, so are the cabs.
The majority of tweaks can be found anywhere.
But it's just unfair when a Chef collects everthing he needs for his kitchen throughout time and someone who is just beginning to cook dumps it, replaces a few packages and voila, a new ROM from a new Chef, as good as the old dumped ROM.
It's not about hiding, it's about somehow protecting endless hours of work that just don't pay back.
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Click to collapse
Allright i can live with that, BUT, what are we doing right here?
Microsoft and HTC engineers also spend many hours on their precious work, pushing the limits of WM. If we all must respect hard work, then we should not dump roms of those guys either.
I feel strongly that this is an open community an that requires that everything is open, i've cooked many roms but never thought about protecting it.
I'ts MY hobby, and if i want to implement(find) tweaks and enhancements it's for MY satisfaction. I dont care if someone from here dumps my rom and steals all of MY found tweaks.
Let him learn about rom cooking by inspecting my rom, i dont give a ****, in this way the community gets stronger.
And by the way, if the chefs have nothing to hide and share their tweaks on the forum, why not open their roms?
Gr. bram
I'm not flaming that chefs, but i'm posting out my opinion about this.
I can totally get into the thought of those guys.
christonge said:
I also find it very strange.... the only reasoning I can think is people don´t want their working copied but hey I completely agree with you it´s a very strange way to work as, certainly for me, this forum has always been about sharing. Sharing knowledge, information, ideas, ROMs, creativity and most of all a passion for these devices... it´s a real shame.
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Sharing is one, stealilng and taking credit for someone else's work is another thing. And look at this beyond the Forum. Do you have any idea how many places host, discuss, etc. the ROMs made here? I don't want to get into details, but this is how it works. ROMs published are downloaded and posted on some other forums, where some other cooks try to do something with them. When they manage, they've got themselves a new ROM with upgoing rep and paypal ballance! You should really look into this. I know my ROMs were subject to such on some other forums.
But if this is still not enough for you, there is always an option to start learning how to cook, dump an Official ROM, port it (if it's the case), make a baserom, collect all your packages, collect and edit all your registries, skin till you drop, test for a week or so, build and release without protection.
bram_smulders said:
Microsoft and HTC engineers also spend many hours on their precious work, pushing the limits of WM.
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Yes, maybe because dumping and cooking is grey field towards illegal. There's a really thin line between legal and illegal, but that's some other stuff I don't want to get into.
tnyynt said:
Sharing is one, stealilng and taking credit for someone else's work is another thing. And look at this beyond the Forum. Do you have any idea how many places host, discuss, etc. the ROMs made here? I don't want to get into details, but this is how it works. ROMs published are downloaded and posted on some other forums, where some other cooks try to do something with them. When they manage, they've got themselves a new ROM with upgoing rep and paypal ballance! You should really look into this. I know my ROMs were subject to such on some other forums.
But if this is still not enough for you, there is always an option to start learning how to cook, dump an Official ROM, port it (if it's the case), make a baserom, collect all your packages, collect and edit all your registries, skin till you drop, test for a week or so, build and release without protection.
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I have spent days, weeks and perhaps months (to scared to add it up!!) reading and learning how to cook so I can see your point. In fact I have also been through this very experience here where somebody has posted my work on another forum and yes it was annoying but I think what Bram was trying to point out that as time goes by things are becoming more and more "closed". Perhaps due to the number of users now?? I´m not sure but it´s a debate that will always be here
christonge said:
I have spent days, weeks and perhaps months (to scared to add it up!!) reading and learning how to cook so I can see your point. In fact I have also been through this very experience here where somebody has posted my work on another forum and yes it was annoying but I think what Bram was trying to point out that as time goes by things are becoming more and more "closed". Perhaps due to the number of users now?? I´m not sure but it´s a debate that will always be here
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It's not user quantity, it's user quality. You can never stop a user to register and you can never check his/her intentions when joining. Private Messaging always works and I don't think anyone contacted for help ever refused on this Forum (I'm referring to Chefs). I've been helped by stranger fellow XDA Chefs and I helped stranger Chefs myself. But won't go for putting everything on a silver tray to some second hand B forum Chef.
As for XDA DEVELOPERS, here's a hint of what it is: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2031989&postcount=45
christonge said:
In fact I have also been through this very experience here where somebody has posted my work on another forum and yes it was annoying but I think what Bram was trying to point out that as time goes by things are becoming more and more "closed". Perhaps due to the number of users now??
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This experience is very nasty, but you cant entirely stop it. Someone flash your rom, the dump it the "device way", he has an exact copy of it.
Thats in a way true how i feel, i have a feeling lately that this forum is becoming closed, everyone keeping stuff for their selves. Wich in a way i can understand that(all the hard work etc.) but then the "openness" of this forum is slightly dripping away.
In my time in the wizard forums there was no such thing, every cook tried to help the other out. If a tweak(or something else new) was found, they posted it right away. Or cooked it into rom, and encoraged others to take it from them.
Lately in the diamond furoms i have the feeling some people don't want to share anymore, just the credit of a great rom.
Wich they have to know and do theirselves, but i'm against such a way of work here.
tnyynt said:
Yes, maybe because dumping and cooking is grey field towards illegal. There's a really thin line between legal and illegal, but that's some other stuff I don't want to get into.
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I was't talking about illegal stuff here(becouse all we do is illegal) but about the morale to steal from someone.
tnyynt said:
But won't go for putting everything on a silver tray to some second hand B forum Chef.
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Click to collapse
I totally understand that, but i feel strongly against it(my opinion)
gr. bram
tnyynt said:
It's not user quantity, it's user quality. You can never stop a user to register and you can never check his/her intentions when joining. Private Messaging always works and I don't think anyone contacted for help ever refused on this Forum (I'm referring to Chefs). I've been helped by stranger fellow XDA Chefs and I helped stranger Chefs myself. But won't go for putting everything on a silver tray to some second hand B forum Chef.
As for XDA DEVELOPERS, here's a hint of what it is: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2031989&postcount=45
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Click to collapse
Great post by kyphur.... and I agree. As I posted above I have been helped by many great chefs here since I start with my Hermes, then with my Kaiser and Polaris and now here on Diamond and most of it has been done by PM. As for giving everything on a silver tray... well I think it´s a personal choice and I personally don´t think to much about it when I have posted my ROMs but hey maybe I have a different take on things
All I know is I am personally very very gratefull to many people who contribute to this forum and I have mentioned most of them in the past when posting my ROMs but as I said before this debate will always run.....
Chefs do it mainly to protect there investment in time. They have no reason to give you the ROMs, so why should you complain when they do things?
I personally do not do anything to protect my ROM, other than grouping files under one dsm to save space - the overheads for DSM files are quite big - rather than to stop people dumping the ROMs.
Why should we as chefs give you anything?
l3v5y said:
Chefs do it mainly to protect there investment in time. They have no reason to give you the ROMs, so why should you complain when they do things?
I personally do not do anything to protect my ROM, other than grouping files under one dsm to save space - the overheads for DSM files are quite big - rather than to stop people dumping the ROMs.
Why should we as chefs give you anything?
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I dont say they haven got the right close roms, I just dont feel like that, and wanted to know if there are some others who think the same.
For me this is an open forum so all what i do is open, if other decide otherwise, let that be, i dont mind.
My point is that i feel that the forum is getting more to a closed forum rather that coming together, and just wanted to know if i was the only one.
Mayb is misformed my statement in the first post.
If this thread is non constructive, please close and/or delete it.
gr. bram
ps. i dont intend to flame anyone, i respect everyones work & decisions!
Protection of investment of time is a good reason.
Another good reason to protect ROMs is:
Stop the wild-groth of ROM-releases.
Every wanabee chef nowadays uses a simple kitchen, trows in a already cooked ROM.
Changes a few packages and a splashscreen, and trows it on the forum as something new.
I don't call that cooking, that is trowing something into the microwave (after putting ketchup on it)!
Also removing all RGU's and replacing DSM files by a single one does improve the device!.
Your personal tweaks aren't directly visible (like it would in a rgu).
Your own privatly build packages are more difficult to steal/recycle by a third party.
Also Nofi,
Regards,
EqX
the-equinoxe said:
Protection of investment of time is a good reason.
Another good reason to protect ROMs is:
Stop the wild-groth of ROM-releases.
Every wanabee chef nowadays uses a simple kitchen, trows in a already cooked ROM.
Changes a few packages and a splashscreen, and trows it on the forum as something new.
I don't call that cooking, that is trowing something into the microwave (after putting ketchup on it)!
Also removing all RGU's and replacing DSM files by a single one does improve the device!.
Your personal tweaks aren't directly visible (like it would in a rgu).
Your own privatly build packages are more difficult to steal/recycle by a third party.
Also Nofi,
Regards,
EqX
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Fully Agree also some roms are targets for other people who waits to steal your work and also cover it and and re-build it up its thiers.
I do protect my roms for more than one reasons which I cant say, but time is also one big factor to do with it.
bram totally respect u as a chef, but things have change so much now since XDA have expanded in worldwide website and also other forums lark on this site to steal other works
Ready meals are nice though!
l3v5y said:
Ready meals are nice though!
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and I suppose even better when they´re spoon feed!
I see all your points and respect them completely.... we are all here for similar reasons and that´s the beauty of this forum. I agree with dutty that things have changed a lot, even in the time I´ve been here.
duttythroy said:
Fully Agree also some roms are targets for other people who waits to steal your work and also cover it and and re-build it up its thiers.
I do protect my roms for more than one reasons which I cant say, but time is also one big factor to do with it.
bram totally respect u as a chef, but things have change so much now since XDA have expanded in worldwide website and also other forums lark on this site to steal other works
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Click to collapse
100% agree,
I believe we are all willing to share, but one bad apple will mess it up for everyone.
duttythroy said:
Fully Agree also some roms are targets for other people who waits to steal your work and also cover it and and re-build it up its thiers.
I do protect my roms for more than one reasons which I cant say, but time is also one big factor to do with it.
bram totally respect u as a chef, but things have change so much now since XDA have expanded in worldwide website and also other forums lark on this site to steal other works
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly my thoughts!
I'm not part of the Diamond community... yet... but I'd like to give opinion on the subject.
I've been cooking for a while for trinity users, and as many chefs here, I've spent countless hours analyzing official ROMs, and even other chefs ROMs, reading, searching, testing, to better understand the whole cooking process, to improve myself.
Along the way I've had many questions, problems, and so on, and so on... Mainly I was fortunate enough to have had a great teacher and friend, and also the basis to build my work on.
This happened in a time when it all was a passion, when it was about making the ROMs better(not just customize them but also to improve them in performance and/or stability), but now?... Well, now it's more about having the best ROM, with more downloads... and ultimately more donations...
I have nothing against chefs, or developers, or whatever, being rewarded for their work, hell, I have a paypal link too(even though I don't really advertise it, it just sits there on my signature)!!
I guess the trigger for all this, was some chefs, making other chefs work their own without asking in the first place. If this really was sharing community, why not ask, instead of "stealing"? In the end it becomes a sort of a cooker's war, to see which one has the best security methods implemented on their ROM, and which one can get through that same security, so they can take instead of asking once again...
As l3v5y said, I also remove the RGUs and patch the DSM into one, for performance purposes, as colateral I get some protection against ROM package rebuilding, but I can only go so far. I have no programing skills whatsoever, so I couldn't protect my ROMs further, even if I wanted!!
I tottaly agree that with the growth in the number of members, comes a growth in new chefs, or chef wannabies, and if all is given away that easily, the forums will end up flooded with new ROMs. But on the other hand, I'm in favor of sharing. I'm just sad this is getting to a point where it get harder and harder to get some things that used to be available to everyone....
I could go on, but this is getting rather long... Sorry everyone!
hey guys,
don't know if this is the right place, but because Chefs should read this in first place, the general board seems not the right place either. But this is the same problem with application development either, so developers may read and post too. So not to bother you all furthermore, i'll start right through:
I wonder about
- 50 different ROM development projects (what could be a good sign, if this would not be)
- 48 concurenting projects which do not share know-how (reading statments like: "I will not tell you, what i did to the ROM to archieve...")
- 98 times uncoordinated simultaneous identical work is done(including, not concluding, tools, tweaks, apps, complete roms ...)
Why do we behave like the people because of which we've started this hole thing here? We do keep know-how secret like the builder and oem manufactorers do or did. Instead we should discuss our know how publically and organize our work and efforts as a community and not as individuals. There is enough space for every way of thinkin inside organized structures left (e.g. speed or stability optimized roms, ...) - but what the one project discovers or experiences should be known by the other projects too, that's what is called synergy. We all could profit. Thats the sence of a community. This feeling i miss here a bit to be honest.
And to get concrete i'd suggest further organizational investigations. Some guys did start some already good ideas like a complete guide to dumping, cooking, etc. or a thread where design stuff is listed and linked centrally, or for example the thread where ROM's get tested for speed and space independently. We should take this last idea further and add information to this comparison, about what was done to this ROM's to archieve the projects defined/assigned goals.
This way we could test RoM's concerning to manipulations and would be able to find out what is really happening in our systems (denpenency of [OEM]pakages) and what we can really do to improve a certain goal of tuning.
Furthermore we would not do identical work a thousand times, and so would be able to serve an easy diamond-click-kitchen to the community and last not least to ourself's.
There are not that many intentions possible in RoM development:
Speed
Space
Stability
Gaming
Office
Weird?
... ?
We should now start a thread (and maybe a database) to get our know how organized and start workin together instead of against each other. We (including, not concluding, me ;-) all do owe some guys here in the forums a debt of gratitude for their work and efforts. I'm happy to see that some people are donating, so some guys get a beer payed which is a nice honoration (but no payment). The more i'd be happy if not two developers do the same work simultaneous. Let's get that organized!?
So now i did state some philosophy, followed by some concrete input - now it's your turn to do so ;-)
Best regards
peet
I totally agree.
I do agree with you but this behaviour is found NOT JUST HERE, but in almost all organizations regardless of occupation. Some of us work as a Team more then others but individuality and uniqueness is part of human natures need to be competitive. I really wish we weren't like this.
The purpose for me on this forum is to share my knowledge on to others. I believe most people like to do the same. I think if there are secrets here, then I believe they are kept secrets for branding purposes. To make a name for themselves and to distinguish themselves from the rest.
Based on the post that I have been reading from ROM Threads, I always see chefs thanking each other for sharing. So sharing is happening but maybe not in the most efficient way.
Hmm....hope all these feelings being shared are not taken the wrong way here. Just me thoughts from Psych 101 and my experiences.
band27 said:
So sharing is happening but maybe not in the most efficient way.
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I totally agree.
seeya
hallo,
i have a little problem to understand your thread. 99% of not-understanding is my english and 1% is your long text without any .. ähhm .. development.
can you say me in one sentence and no more than 10 words what you want?
okokur
I'd like to take the opportunity to say thanks to the majority who do share. A couple of months ago, to flash meant only showing off, and cooking was just for a good meal. With the upgrading, cooking tutorials, wiki and dozens of helpful replies to questions, I'm on my way to cooking my first ROM. Just wish I knew more to contribute something more technical myself. This board has some of the most helpful threads I've found. Thanks once again.
I agree, but there are a couple of problems with this.
1.) some people just don't want to work in a team.
2.) today, those who flash on a daily basis know all (or at least their favorite) Chefs by name, and what their ROM contains. This would be lost.
3.) continuing the previous thought, Chefs would lose motivation, if their name was one of 38 people who made the ROM, in the "credits".
4.) donations. would you spare 5-10$ each chef who contributed? that'll be one pricy Rom
I'm sure there are other problems with this as well, these are just of the top of my head..
but, I do support the idea, the development looks unefficient. At least from a users' point of view..
I've just reread your post, maybe i didn't quite get it. Do you mean something like a thread where all the new knowhows would be listed (though, WIKI is probably better).
slovoflud said:
though, WIKI is probably better
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That's exactly what I thought after reading the opening post
A wiki doesnt force anyone to do anything, but those who want to share their knowledge do have one central place to do so. Probably would reduce the amount of 'stupid' questions as well, or am I the only one who doesnt feel like searching through a ****load of topics for answers
I really like this idea
I hope that rom developers starts working together, providing even better roms for the users
that would be great!
yes shure, wiki would be the right place to centralize know-how, the problem with the wiki is that most information doesn't get there. I mean, there is no board around containing this know-how that xda does. but this know-how must be searched first in thousands of threads and millions of posts. and that is hard work,guys.
i just changed from a Mteor to a Diamond and had to invest several days (or have it been weeks?) to get the story in the diamond wiki/boards. one problem is that a lot of outdated information is found and second that information is split that hard. and likewise know-how is split apart.
then i realized most times when i searched for some information, i found hits in kaiser or raphael or somewhere else forum. too there seems to be organized projects workin together in those places.
In Diamond board only few kitchen are found, and not really a lot information about them either. I tested some, but only one was able to build a RoM out of the box. And i remembered Kaiser kitchen and wondered why this is not possible here likewise. While searchin for information i had to realize that here is no kitchen found documented enough to start building my own RoM in a nutshell nor in 3 days, possibly in a week but realistic it'll be in a month maybe. all that just because i wanted my next device to be theftsafe (because providers do everything to keep that thing running as nobody does something [what shure would/and was possible] against stolen devices - no, they do not get excluded from networks (except very few providers) - nor do they get excluded international or worldwide. You may think now, okay then let your device be trackable through services like PiCO. Even that is ratted or hindered by providers, but that is another story.
About the money mentioned above: I was lost in the opinion i would be surfin a community here, which is something where money does not exist really. I am glad that people did donate for a bricked chefs device for example, and i appreciate donations to well doing developers and chefs, but this can't be a point in discussing a communities life or behaviour. But if you are thinkin this way (and i still don't know what you want here then), then please think a step further and realize that: If you offer (maybe as xda-organization or other) a workin kitchen for daus, where contents and trimming can get selected, licence information can get added and that all gets build in a "personalized" RoM, MAN a thousands of people would be even willing to pay a hundred bucks for that. And i bet even on donation basis there would be enough money to share. But back to community.
Some ingenious anonymous teacher did ask me above, what i'd want then, in one sentence. I can tell ya - i want a snicker right now. Thanks for your contribution to the community development. It's that helpful as those "you should use the search" statements of people tired of tellin people same info twice, while not gettin tired of tellin people that they would be tired of them askin tiring questions. Ey guys you really bore, ääh get me tired ;-)
But to get concrete again, i think because of the wide range of device configurations and languages it would be good to develop ONE kitchen together, where it is possible to select a source for building freely (e.g. your own RoM, a Chefs RoM, a providers RoM, or whatever), then give possibilty to change language, select tec. specs like pagefile, etc., select packages to exclude, apps and licences to include, select design patches, CFC and other tweaks, select tweaks and last not least burn your RoM.
That'd be kickin ass guys doesn't it?
I know it would nice to have just one ROM developed, but then again this is reality, people have different preferences. I am sure Chefs share their recipes between themselves.
anyway, u guys may wanna check this out
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=469420
ervius have done a fine job there.
Kudos.
I completly agreed with your point. Ive seen a lot of ROMS from wanabe cheffs and others that are from great chefs which enhance the OS deaply. Its sad to see comments that not help in the evolution of our devices. Ive not many Mods around, perhaps most of them got their hands on the HD.
On the other hand everyone must be able to post any Cooked ROM they want, but they have to make sure that something is different about othe developements, like Language, or included APPS or particular tweaks.
the way i see it - MOST chefs don't do cooking for public... they cook for their own need and according to what they like - then they share with the public... there's nothing wrong with that... and they don't need to share anything...
and i have noticed they always help you out if you send them a private message.
my two cents
cloudedhopes said:
the way i see it - MOST chefs don't do cooking for public... they cook for their own need and according to what they like - then they share with the public... there's nothing wrong with that... and they don't need to share anything...
and i have noticed they always help you out if you send them a private message.
my two cents
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I used to think like that too, not anymore.
Vise versa.
If you read any thread with a 'popular' ROM, it's easy to see that it's not made for Chefs personal use( perhaps it was originally, but then it becomes a project).
hi all,
first i have to state that i shure do not want to force anybody to nothing. but i see too much people doin identical investigations. therefore i wanted to ask for others opiinion.
somebody sayed, that people might not want to work together wich sounds kind of weird in a community while shure nobody gets forced to share, equal if know-how or work. and somebody said that chefs want to read their name above their work or thdy would loose interest to do something. if those peoples interest or motivation is only to distinguish themselfes it would be sad, but no prob-let them do so on their own.
me would like a ROM without my name, but which is realy coool a lot more.
so first point would be, that all chefs write their know-how down in the wiki, so we can see which way we should start making a universall ROM which can then get tweaked and ppersonalized individually but the base is always the same for all. if the base is really good, all people could profit from that BaseROM!
at the moment i cant see which packages are corresponding to others and cant get removed easily. tooo it would be nice if nataly chef would tell us how he did free that much space, e.g.
maybe some chefs are willing to join, so we start a real universal RoM-Kitchen?
i red ervuis thread only short, but that sounds in the right direction, i'll contact him and ask for support.
the main thing first would be to get real good structures (like ervius started) to build a minimum basicRoM which then can get extended - and we need some more input about flash/nand/rom/pagefile/etc use and manipulation.
lets do this organized and structured not to do the same things a hundred times, and to avoid all those incompatibilities between apps found here (in comination a lot even common apps do interact and the result over both/all is a non working configuration. therefore a "standard" should get found for tweaking, cooking and applications too.
how about that?
hallo,
i have a little problem ...
i asked you what you mean and wish the answer with less than 10 words.
you want so much from other people but you give nothing. if i read your thread at first time, i think about you, that what you write is not that what you really want. i think you have problems with cooking and you hope on an easy way become solution.
one kitchen means, one way to extract, one way to cook ... like a one way with no return. if you have trouble with this one kitchen, nobody can or will help you.
i flashed my first pda three years ago, now i have pda number 4 and i cooked my own roms. the reason, why i dont share it, i used original buyed software by softmaker, coreplayer and sktools with integrated registration-keys/methods. this was orig.software and cant be for sharing.
i dont think, that i can learn this things with one kitchen, with one group, with one project. i have to thank for so much people, who spend nights of nights alone for cooking and sharing.
and if i can help somebody, so i do it. but in xda-developers it was not so easy to help someone, because there so so much people who was faster than me ... much much fuster. god safes the "aloning".
Well, okokur, you have a point, but only to a certain degree. You say about bought licenses, that shouldn't be shared. Fair point, but be consequent, and look further. From the legal point of view, 99% of cooks don't write the code - they only manipulate dumped software - and it's hard to say if this is legal. Sooooo... what I'm pointing at?
That this way or the other, everybody is to him/herself. I only don't understand why some chefs are locking their roms against uncooking - it's like you stole a car, and put an alarm on it against thieves.... Ridiculous.
All cooks should take example from people liek CT or mondilv, who share openly their develpoment. And that's the way. If you are just a bit inclined, you can start cooking yourself. If you are not, you will lazily wait for a rom done for you, and complain about what is in rom, what isn't, etc..
So - my advice/opinion - you will never get cooperation like you wish, because that's human nature. But it would be enough, if cooks would leave their roms open - then people who want to learn, would learn.
I can only agree... for what I can do due to lack of time I always publish the full kitchen source in my/our repository, so the rom isn't just opened but I publish the full kitchen tree with all scripts almost commented and/or other useful stuff
If I can help in other ways please just write down a line
bye,
davide
mjaxa said:
Well, okokur, you have a point, but only to a certain degree. You say about bought licenses, that shouldn't be shared. Fair point, but be consequent, and look further. From the legal point of view, 99% of cooks don't write the code - they only manipulate dumped software - and it's hard to say if this is legal. Sooooo... what I'm pointing at?
That this way or the other, everybody is to him/herself. I only don't understand why some chefs are locking their roms against uncooking - it's like you stole a car, and put an alarm on it against thieves.... Ridiculous.
All cooks should take example from people liek CT or mondilv, who share openly their develpoment. And that's the way. If you are just a bit inclined, you can start cooking yourself. If you are not, you will lazily wait for a rom done for you, and complain about what is in rom, what isn't, etc..
So - my advice/opinion - you will never get cooperation like you wish, because that's human nature. But it would be enough, if cooks would leave their roms open - then people who want to learn, would learn.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you are right.
i think, i can share my rom without buyed software ... but for diamond there was so much roms, thats no needed share a rom without any interesting features.
recooking roms not possible ... for flasher only its enough. for cookers exists a trash-folder on desktop
cooperation like my wish ... i am to old for other oppinnions so i respect other oppinnions for 100%. (its reading like type mismatch error )
if i start with flashing and later i want cooking but that was to much infos and to much rules for cooking ... that i wish ONE KITCHEN with GFX-USING by klicking "KLICK-KLCK" and NO-ERRORS and NO-BLACK-SCREENS ... And if i read this thread the first time, i see me three years ago
i understand peetx for 100%
LONG POST WARNING
Hello Everyone,
I have been a silent member of the community since the days of the Qtek phones (some of the oldies will know what im talking about). im an amateur web-designer but a Technology Consultant full time.
Now ive moved onto Android (I had a G1 2 Weeks after UK Launch) and ive been a big follower of all the various mods and roms that people have been releasing.
I have been a HERO owner for the last 8 months and it now seems like theres a mass of developers making roms on forums spread all over the web.
I know that a lot of people are loyal to the forums they've been on since god was a boy but currently its such a mess trying to see whats new and whats gone out of date.
SO!!!!
I have a load of webspace and bandwidth so i want to give back to the community and make everyone's life easier.
Im hoping to setup a dedicated forum for HERO Roms, with each rom having its own dedicated category. This will mean that bugs and issues can be posted as "individual topics" making it easier for everyone to find out a solution to their problem. Also it will mean that the developers can see instantly what bugs there and keep track of them.
This is aimed to be as much a help to the DEVs as it is to the users.
Also, if funds and bandwidth allow, this will let DEVs to upload their roms to the sites dedicated FTP space meaning it will be alot easier for people to download.
So ive put up a poll. The question is simple and you have 4 answers, 2 yes and 2 no, depending on if you're a dev or a user.
Ill let the poll run for a few days while i prepare a demo forum for testing.
If this all goes well then i will set up similar forums for all android based phones making the android developing world the best there could be.
If anyone has any experience which could be useful such as graphics, phpbb admin, or even hosting space pm me and we will see if we can collaborate to make this thing a success.
Signing Out
The Didge
Sounds good — right now, each ROM just has one big impossible to navigate megathread. A section for topics/questions on each individual ROM would be invaluable.
Also forgot to add
Developers will have a dedicated "Lounge" to share/collaborate on fixing common issues. this will be hidden from normal users and will allow DEVs to work together a lot easier
There are non-dev's on here though that can have some very good ideas in fixing things..... you don't really want to alienate them
it is a no from me - XDA-DEVELOPERS is where we get our fix.....
Lennyuk said:
There are non-dev's on here though that can have some very good ideas in fixing things..... you don't really want to alienate them
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A very good point, ill work out a way this can also be implemented.
Anyone can become a developer by request but it will be closely monitored. By setting up a dedicated section it will allow devs to discuss things without being plagued by people saying they're having the same problem or haven't read the instructions properly etc.
TBH, I think that devs will still tend to migrate away from here, or really any forum where they are stuck in a 'box' as part of a bigger 'box'.
I've been setting up an off-site forum for a ROM, and there are certainly advantages to having admin/mod rights that you don't get on shared forums.
One example was that recently a dev I work with went away, and Apps2SD wasn't working on their ROM. I made a hotfix, as per our agreement before he went away, but I had to end up adding the link to my sig in red and hoping people read it... Anyway, if we'd wanted to get it into the first post, we'd have had to PM a mod and waited an age for someone to sort it out.
With admin and mod rights, a small group of us will be able to edit each others' posts and this sort of thing shouldn't happen.
On a very positive note, I've noticed that the level of support from people with servers has been brilliant. There are now 2 mirrors for this ROM's stuff, and we have plenty of space (tens of gigabytes) to host ROMs and files for people. This generosity is really appreciated, but I don't think (IMHO) devs will move from here to another 'shared' forum... The flexibility of having your own site with bugtracker software and MediaWiki is too alluring...
There are also plenty of interesting other things that can be done on a server where there's only one real ROM on it, which would not be possible, or fair on the host, if you had loads of ROMs on the site... (think about CPU and disk usage if you do any interesting scripting )
Hell, I've even got ssh access to one of the servers now, so I can use rsync to upload files via diffs, saving bandwidth. But that wouldn't really be feasible for lots of people, and loading could become an issue if a couple of DEVs released a rom at the same time (think impending 2.1 release and the number of d/ls you'll get an hour after that )
But, I'm gonna vote no, and those are my (personal opinion) reasons. But if you go ahead, I wish you good luck, and feel free to PM me if you need help working with phpBB or other stuff like that (I've done it for a while)...
the_didge said:
A very good point, ill work out a way this can also be implemented.
Anyone can become a developer by request but it will be closely monitored. By setting up a dedicated section it will allow devs to discuss things without being plagued by people saying they're having the same problem or haven't read the instructions properly etc.
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Well, a read-only forum would sort this, where non-devs can read, but not post. But then it's not a devs forum...
(sorry for double post, but it's on a different sort-of topic)
anon2122 said:
TBH, I think that devs will still tend to migrate away from here, or really any forum where they are stuck in a 'box' as part of a bigger 'box'.
I've been setting up an off-site forum for a ROM, and there are certainly advantages to having admin/mod rights that you don't get on shared forums.
One example was that recently a dev I work with went away, and Apps2SD wasn't working on their ROM. I made a hotfix, as per our agreement before he went away, but I had to end up adding the link to my sig in red and hoping people read it... Anyway, if we'd wanted to get it into the first post, we'd have had to PM a mod and waited an age for someone to sort it out.
With admin and mod rights, a small group of us will be able to edit each others' posts and this sort of thing shouldn't happen.
On a very positive note, I've noticed that the level of support from people with servers has been brilliant. There are now 2 mirrors for this ROM's stuff, and we have plenty of space (tens of gigabytes) to host ROMs and files for people. This generosity is really appreciated, but I don't think (IMHO) devs will move from here to another 'shared' forum... The flexibility of having your own site with bugtracker software and MediaWiki is too alluring...
There are also plenty of interesting other things that can be done on a server where there's only one real ROM on it, which would not be possible, or fair on the host, if you had loads of ROMs on the site... (think about CPU and disk usage if you do any interesting scripting )
Hell, I've even got ssh access to one of the servers now, so I can use rsync to upload files via diffs, saving bandwidth. But that wouldn't really be feasible for lots of people, and loading could become an issue if a couple of DEVs released a rom at the same time (think impending 2.1 release and the number of d/ls you'll get an hour after that )
But, I'm gonna vote no, and those are my (personal opinion) reasons. But if you go ahead, I wish you good luck, and feel free to PM me if you need help working with phpBB or other stuff like that (I've done it for a while)...
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Yeah I agree with you there Pulser (on pretty much it all)
Lennyuk said:
Yeah I agree with you there Pulser (on pretty much it all)
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Lenny, am about to PM you with account details for what I've whipped up on the new villain mirror (forum etc.) Change default password obviously
@topic, TBH, I think load on this server could be immense. That's my main reason for no (since last post was very long, and I really think I should summarise).
I do like the idea - will it turn into ads city though?????
anon, your work on the villain rom is what inspired me to do this.
The villain thread is now almost 750 pages long and i can no longer follow it all as theres just too much to catch up on if ive been away for a couple of days.
A dedicated forum per rom is very possible but... it would mean that users would have to register at lots of different forums if they wanted to try things out.
ill pm you a link to the kind of thing im aiming for. At least having your input means we can make it even better.
anon2122 said:
Lenny, am about to PM you with account details for what I've whipped up on the new villain mirror (forum etc.) Change default password obviously
@topic, TBH, I think load on this server could be immense. That's my main reason for no (since last post was very long, and I really think I should summarise).
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Thanks, will look out for it.
Redpizzi said:
I do like the idea - will it turn into ads city though?????
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No, it wont. Im sure the community will be supportive enough to make sure that dosnt happen.
Just a quick note to everyone. if the majority of developers say no then this wont be going ahead. without the developers there will be no use in the forum.
If anyone wants any points to be clarified or any suggestions please just post it here.
Even without dev support, i still think there would be much value in having a system in which users of a specific ROM can talk to each other. And talk in a structured, easy to navigate way. (i.e. not having everything in one megathread).
So if I wanted to ask a question about a certain ROM I'm using, other users of that ROM would be lurking in that section of the forum, and they could answer my question.
tl;dr it'd be good regardless of dev support
Discard all the "wannabe chef" threads, follow only the ones you have an interest in, and there you go. That would have saved you ~90% of the hassle.
adwinp said:
Discard all the "wannabe chef" threads, follow only the ones you have an interest in, and there you go. That would have saved you ~90% of the hassle.
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not exactly sure what youre referring to but if its about the list of roms then thats what i do, just follow the ones i want... BUT
the threads are very disorganised and the villain rom is now almost 750 pages long....
There is no way to easily look back and see what the bugs are other than looking back over the last 50-60 pages - search dosnt work properly because you could have the same issue mentioned hundreds of times in diffrent contexts.
And its not fair to make all the DEVs update their first post eveytime someone says something isnt working.
A wiki would be ideal for this...
Just my 2c
I stand by my earlier comment on this issue.
We need to stop fragmenting the Hero ROM community rather than fragment it more.
Incase nobody noticed, the Hero ROM community is ALOT smaller than the Dream/Magic community is.
In part because we have to deal with closed-source Sense.
But this doesn't mean that we should move to other forums just because you can't have admin powers here.
Maybe it's a better idea to ask the admins if they can possibly install a modification into vBulletin (the software this forum runs on) so that 1 thread can have multiple authors.
I'm sure there is one around.
Meaning that the person that creates a rom can assign people that can edit the first post.
This solves all the problems you have without fragmenting the community (further).
Or am I wrong?
If you want your own forum just so you can have "power" over the other users then I can garantuee you that the chances of it going well are slim.
I am getting annoyed of many ROM threads here, because they are
stating "speed improvements, minor fixes, stable" - if you cant name it exactly, i call bull****.
ROMs being based on the same RUU as other ROMs but not stating what is different. please stop wasting my time. i dont want to go sherlock holmes on your ROM. when you just spend 2h, to make a ROM that is basically the same like most other (just differeing in the point above) - thats fine, you can play around and share it here - but PLEASE tell us.
incomplete list of what is working or not. listing only BT as not working and then reading on the third page "animations and browser download dont work" and then a reply "they dont work on any sense 4.0 ROM". Or stuff like "bugs: you tell me". could you please take 10minutes to test against a checklist?!
so whats my point:
I am no ROM developer, but a software developer. And I see all the wonderfull work done here. But i hate the lazy "you all probably know what im talking about" attitude around here. I feel a bit scammed by either the very shiny threads with custom logos and artwork, listing as many points as they can - whats the purpose - you dont sell anything here. Or on the other hand the very short threads that omit the most important points, making the ROMs incompareable - are you hiding something?
so i propose:
an enforced thread layout, that is composed by the community.
some points i would like to see in it:
name
version
based on (RUU revision number, link)
android revision(, sense revision)
type (a coarse classification: stock, themed, bloatfree, desensed, ported, testrelease, AOSP. multiple selection possible)
changes to base (the 5 main topics of this ROM. at least kernel, bootscreen, keyboard, launcher, theme)
dependencies: firmware etc.
screenshot (i know mostly there is no difference, but i personally am a visual type and need them )
a bug checklist (also community build, most usual bugs, states: ok, minor, broken, untested)
a tweaks checklist (e.g. rooted, deodexed, zipaligned, crt, recent apps, APM, battery, /etc/hosts, beats etc.)
APK versions (also a community build checklist, maybe a script for that)
changelog (for each old version a download, for each change a source link, not just "thanks xyuser" - having the ROM in github etc. would be awesome)
I bet there are some more points - i think the non-developers should unite and demand a bit of quality. Develop and enforce a standard. Use this thread to gather ideas.
And inb4 "be gratefull and take what you get" - no, I think chefs have a responsibility to be transparent, they get lots of testers and glory in return. XDA is a central reference for everyone who roots his device. Mods have taken some good steps to clean up the mess. Now its time for the next.
I think the more detailed the information gets, the faster the development will become and users can build trust in what they flash.
Mods, would something like this be possible?
Yes, it will make everything easier for the users too compare one with another.
Sent from my HTC Sensation XE with Beats Audio using xda premium
MOVZX said:
Yes, it will make everything easier for the users too compare one with another.
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thats what I think. any other oppinions?
jonasb said:
thats what I think. any other oppinions?
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I also agree, There are way to many roms out there, I couldnt possibly flash them all and test them, My phone would be outdated by the time i managed that.
The majority are exactly the same, except with the occasional different theme /tweak /app but other than that i think they are similar...
I also get the feeling that the ROMs are a pretty much copy & paste job (with the exception of the devs that build from scratch)
I would like to see some sort of organization in the development thread.. I have nothing against these ROM Makers, But if the first post pointed out what exactly makes THIS ROM different than any others. i think it would be less confusing to people..
I am so for this. I am tired myself of all the crap too. I would like to know what I'm getting and how stable it truly is. I mean saying it's stable but then u find our in post number 400, that one the newest release there are some bugs which don't make it go for every day use. And if it's kanged, tell us, some do tell us but then same get someone else and make it theirs with some changes but nobody finds out till later. I'm also tired of ppl causing problems for others, whenever they follow rules more than others, and tell them this is such & suches place u better leave. I that's y some really good ppl leave here and sometimes the mods allow it cause they're friends. It's total bs, but this is just how I feel!
+ 1 ^^^
I get belittled sometimes in them threads, Im just trying to ask a simple question and the replies are 'dude.. this was asked ten times already.. look at post 862816745 and you will see....' The damn threads change so fast i cant keep up.. Im not a noob... maybe a novice to the sensation but i know what im doing in general.
People expect everyone to know how to do things - because they have done it themselves so many times... Id rather help someone with the simplest question than shout at them for not asking for help and bricking their phone...
C'mon guys, play nice
Rant over lol
EDIT: Good Idea
l
l
V
Maybe there should be a forum for 'Original Development' for projects that aren't a variation of another project. I've seen this for other devices' forums.
mugetsu666 said:
I am so for this. I am tired myself of all the crap too. I would like to know what I'm getting and how stable it truly is. I mean saying it's stable but then u find our in post number 400, that one the newest release there are some bugs which don't make it go for every day use. And if it's kanged, tell us, some do tell us but then same get someone else and make it theirs with some changes but nobody finds out till later. I'm also tired of ppl causing problems for others, whenever they follow rules more than others, and tell them this is such & suches place u better leave. I that's y some really good ppl leave here and sometimes the mods allow it cause they're friends. It's total bs, but this is just how I feel!
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Looks like I was never enjoyed my phone even just for 1 day. Today I've installed a ROM, adding many apps from Market which took many hours to setup & configure.
While I've become comfortable with the ROM, something freaked Me ouy: "Oh, there is even better and way more stable ROM available than this current ROM." Downloading, it takes about 1 to 2 hours. Then booted the ROM, but I caught myself disappointed with the news, "This new one has just another clone of the first ROM I've ever tried." Oh no, it has different theme and feels! "All of them are on the same base, same kernel, same etc, etc, etc."
Then, my final decision should be restoring the first ROM through Recovery, but again it takes minutes to complete.
And yet, I fooled with Battery Calibration placebo/myth which actually doesn't exist. Do I need to recalibrate my battery on s ROM changes? No, Google Official has just stated it's just a myth and placebo.
This is what I feel, sorry I mean no offense to any Devs.
Sent from my HTC Sensation XE with Beats Audio using xda premium
azzledazzle said:
+ 1 ^^^
I get belittled sometimes in them threads, Im just trying to ask a simple question and the replies are 'dude.. this was asked ten times already.. look at post 862816745 and you will see....' The damn threads change so fast i cant keep up.. Im not a noob... maybe a novice to the sensation but i know what im doing in general.
People expect everyone to know how to do things - because they have done it themselves so many times... Id rather help someone with the simplest question than shout at them for not asking for help and bricking their phone...
C'mon guys, play nice
Rant over lol
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Dude I am so with u. Some threads r just so damn long that to every little post would take to long and I would probably never be able to flash a rom. As far as noobs go, we were all noobs at one point. I get most to get me on gtalk so I can help them without some as telling them off. Yeah sometimes it takes me some time but hell I've been able to save quite a few phones.
Its a much better feeling knowing you have helped someone and saved a phone from the horrible stock ROM or possible brick..
Ive done my fair share of helping noobs to help other noobs... Ive also saved a few phones from the trash too
XDA is a community - not a place to rant at people for being a noob - Although there are some hopeless people out there who do not follow the rules, But the majority of us just need some guidance..
The worlds best android developer wasnt born the best... he / she was obviously a noob who learnt from someone else...
The way i see it is that noobs are the future of development so dont hate us
I so agree and am getting ready to learn the cooking game from a friend and great deveolper. He's also getting ready to aquire a sensation and is going to port some of his awesome work from the 3d to the sensation, but make it with ics. Don't know if it'll every see xda because of the drama but it'll be on our teams site. It might make since he does have stuff in evo on xda but I don't know yet.
I'll probably get flamed for this, but that's xda.
The devs don't do this for our convenience. As users who don't pay them a salary, I don't think we're in a position to tell them how they should share what they do. They use their spare time to make something and then choose to share with the masses, which they really didn't have to do. How they choose to present their work should really be up to them IMO.
Besides, if you stick around long enough and read the threads now and then, you'll be able to tell which devs are doing real work versus someone who just forks another person's ROM and throws in some personal tweaks.
Yes most of the ROMs are similar in looks or function, but that's too be expected since everything comes from whatever HTC releases. Each one has its own flavor since each dev has different priorities. Want something totally different? Try one of the WIP AOSP/CM9 builds or maybe MiUI v4.
rawrfische said:
I'll probably get flamed for this, but that's xda.
The devs don't do this for our convenience. As users who don't pay them a salary, I don't think we're in a position to tell them how they should share what they do. They use their spare time to make something and then choose to share with the masses, which they really didn't have to do. How they choose to present their work should really be up to them IMO.
Besides, if you stick around long enough and read the threads now and then, you'll be able to tell which devs are doing real work versus someone who just forks another person's ROM and throws in some personal tweaks.
Yes most of the ROMs are similar in looks or function, but that's too be expected since everything comes from whatever HTC releases. Each one has its own flavor since each dev has different priorities. Want something totally different? Try one of the WIP AOSP/CM9 builds or maybe MiUI v4.
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I think the real question is, WHY are the devs doing it at all? There are motives. I think this thread is basically asking them to spare us. If they decide to pack their ball up and go somewhere else, no big deal. The REAL devs will always stick around.
This thread isn't directed at our "patron devs" but all the no names that pop up with these ridiculous, and misleading, clones while asking for donations.
All in all, no one is forcing us to flash their ROM. It would be nice to have several layers to the dev forum. We need a place to easily see what the pro devs are up to without all the mess in the way. Or, how some genuine developing is coming along...
Matt
I can see it from both sides, All the devs good or bad are still great in their own way.
But some tidying up in the development section wouldnt do any harm... Its like a jumble sale in there, Rummaging around to see whats what. Its ridiculous
Thread cleaned.
Now, you watch your attitude and language or simply face the consequences...
yaddamean, I understand what you mean but I would say the opposite: devs that dont care to be transparent, can host their ROMs on their servers elsewhere. I know this is a quite fundamental difference in views. But i dont get what should be the advantage of being the silent majority.
Good things never come easily.
I bet we would not loose one good dev.
Moved to the about Xda-developers forum as such discussions are not device specific but rather site specific
I agree with u and because of yaddamean and others like him who like to just jump in and flamming ppl. As soon as someone stands up to those kinda ppl, the real supporters of this Site and it's Real dev, get in trouble. That's y ppl leave here too!
broncogr said:
Moved to the about Xda-developers forum as such discussions are not device specific but rather site specific
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this will get us less viewers but more mods hopfully
is there any chance of changing the current practice?
That's y it was moved less attention.