Develop Bugs

Note to NOOBS. You're really annoying. READ! - REMIX

Attention NOOBS. I'm becoming less patient with your posts that include whining and redundancy. This forum isn't here to provide you with all the comforts of your carrier. These roms and installing them is for people who are advanced users of WM. If you need your device for work or if you're new to PocketPCs this isn't the place for you. These roms aren't for you so please stick to your carriers’ rom.
The chefs of these roms aren't here to help you setup your device and to solve all of your issues. If you have issues read, search and fix them. The research is part of the fun...finding fixes is part of the fun. Finding new ways to configure your device and setups is FUN. By asking first you're not participating in the best part of the forum. Questions like...my keyboard is wrong and it doesn't look different or I can't connect to the internet are redundant. Those questions have been asked, answered and fixed OVER-AND-OVER AGAIN....WHY KEEP ASKING?
I'm not anti-noob. I was a noob once and I am still a noob in many ways. I also know that there are some good noobs in the forum. But I'm tired of taking the time to read the threads for critical information and coming across posts for how to install a new theme or where did the backlight on my keyboard go. That's where your user manual or the HTC website comes in. For Cingular people you have a great resource over @ the Cingular forums.
This is a community of like minded technical individuals. This is not HTC tech support or your carriers support. No one here owes you ANYTHING. You install a rom it's on you. If you can't take the responsibility then don't install the rom. It's pretty simple really.
I just had to get that off my chest. I'm sick and cranky but that only played a small role.
Again TIP YOUR CHEF!!!!! and donate to XDA. To all of you that make this a interactive vibrant technical-minded environment THANK YOU!
When I posted this the first time I was trying to prevent what has eventually happened. We've lost one of our genius rom Chefs. So...thanks guys!
Admins....
As for fixing the "noob" issue...I think there is one pretty good solution.
I think the only way to fix such an issue is to either restrict new users from they'll use that period of time to read. Because if they choose to install a rom and they know they can't post a question they'll probably be more apt to read.

I agree with Xultar that a minimum registration period before posting should be enforced, and any BLATANT stupidity should reset the period.
This seems like the best idea. Someone mentioned having a sub forum only accessible by experienced members. Denying read access to the masses however would make this a very exclusive club, which I do feel strongly about.
I am still a relative noob, but found this site and was reading away well before getting my first WM device. It was partly this site that gave me the confidence to try such a device instead of a dumb phone. If I had looked around and seen only the stupid questions, with an inaccessible sub forum that I could not read, then I would have moved on elsewhere and not discovered all the things I have.
I guess it all depends what the key developers here want to achieve. If it is an exclusive club where everyone is a technical whiz then OK I am screwed and will miss this forum. That decision is however entirely theirs to make and no one has the right to tell them what they should or should not do or judge them in any way.
Along with many who do try to avoid asking stupid questions and do try and RTFW first, I can only hope that they choose to try and spread the word so to speak - don't mean to sound all preachy and religious - and that a way can be found to reduce the hassle they get from morons.
I remember seeing one of Sleuth's posts - he said he took no responsibility if anyone chose to use that bit of software and if you bricked your phone it was on you and hard luck. He also added that if that did happen, he would however do his best to help fix any issues. Exactly what I wanted - I knew the risk and choice was mine, but knowing that someone with a lot of knowledge would try and help was very reassuring.
Anyway, thanks to all the deveopers who have helped with the Hermes forum, and to anyone who wants to flame me, just please keep it civil. (There has been rather too much rudeness recently, as tensions seem to have increased... - just my view)

I agree, a "seniors only" forum section would be advantagous but would repell alot of potential members.
I made my guides to help the newbies along the way but i have always said to read the threads and RTFM in order to increase thier knowledge of the various things we do here. Yet still I get very STUPID questions which have been addressed in the guides, why should I write them if people arent going to read them correctly!?!? (rant over hehe) Thankfully on the whole I havent had so many annoyances as jass and the rest have.
I figure this is like a game of lemmings, theres only so many levels you can go through guiding them on the way before you lose your rag and blow them all to hell!!
If people have simply signed up to get thier chosen version of WM6 then piss off thats exactly NOT what we want! ROM chefs dont spend the time to cook these ROMs for people to just download then come back whining when they dont fucntion as they want.

As I've frequented my fair amount of forums, I'd suggest for specific ROM Downloads, or Radio Downloads, Cab files, that users there me be a hidden link and set for users to see if they have a certain amount of posts. Good to that is that you will see Quickly who is simply spamming to get access. Just a thought... I've been able to SuperCid, and Sim Unlock, as well as upgrade to WM6, just by reading several posts and the WIKI. It's really not that difficult.
Even me would not be able to access with some of these restrictions, but that is alright as something like this is very much needed.
ROMS = 50 posts, or active for 8- 12 months
Radio = 40 posts, or active 6 months
CAB files = 25 posts or active 3 months, etc...
Thoughts???

mrvanx said:
If people have simply signed up to get thier chosen version of WM6 then piss off thats exactly NOT what we want! ROM chefs dont spend the time to cook these ROMs for people to just download then come back whining when they dont fucntion as they want.
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I agree - I joined up before you could even SIM unlock without going through EMEI check. I joined up so as to learn about my device and then help spread the knowledge if I could.
It will be harder to sift out those hit and run artists however. Perhaps say a three month delay before you can download or post? removes the quick fix junkies hopefully - although unfortunately many will now be registered already. Perhaps if the post count is under an arbitrary number then the posting delay would come in, but you could PM a moderator to show you had not asked silly questions and get it revoked? Maybe too much work for mods though.

Agreed, I dont think I have been guilty of blatant stupidity, I have bricked my phone once but enough reading around the various forums and its fixed and fine.
If you arent capable of learning for yourself, you have no real business being here, you certainly shouldnt be flashing a £2-300 phone then complaining when it goes tits up.
PhatFarms approach sounds workable though.
Sad to see Jasjamming go, that kind of altruism is pretty rare these days......

chrisjasper said:
Agreed, I dont think I have been guilty of blatant stupidity, I have bricked my phone once but enough reading around the various forums and its fixed and fine.
If you arent capable of learning for yourself, you have no real business being here, you certainly shouldnt be flashing a £2-300 phone then complaining when it goes tits up.
PhatFarms approach sounds workable though.
Sad to see Jasjamming go, that kind of altruism is pretty rare these days......
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hey guys,
im not going, just laying low for a while till things settle down and become a developer forum again, or atleast not a howard forum.

Good luck sport, maybe now you will have more free time and your wife wont be taking your credit cards away......

Great ideas.
Let's just add taking money for reading the posts (and sending money to the posters) and we will kill this forum forever.
The whole Internet idea, if you like it or not, is to share information freely.
There will always be the lamers that will ask their stupid question, and there always be the people that will share their great work with the others.
Anyone (from either side) can join or leave anytime he like.
Jasjamming (The "black guy") did a great job, I relay mean it.
But his leave would not end the great work of this forum.
l hope he will change his mind and decide to continue his work with the others even that some lamers are here.

I think a senior forum would work.
Sure all the ROMs would leak out onto bittorrent etc, but surely that doesn't actually matter? It would be to stop the n00bs moaning about dead phones. if they don't have the rights, they can't post regardless of if they have the ROM or not.

jasjamming said:
hey guys,
im not going, just laying low for a while till things settle down and become a developer forum again, or atleast not a howard forum.
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Click to collapse
At least you can sleep now?
Jas... do you want me to remove your ROM from my mirror? I noticed you removed your own download link, but I don't know where you stand on mirrors?

It's sad to see ppl who don't want to learn join and ask stupid question.
I have joined since 2005 but never post once
Yes! this is my first post!! haha
I want to thank jasjamming for his hard work... and all the ROM chef.

One of the things that has caused an increase in NooB's (in my opionion) is that knowledge of these roms (as well as links) get posted on to howard forums and those same users come rushing in to download the files without paying attention to the fact that this isn't the HTC customer support forum. I agree with what JJ ended up doing only cause I am STILL reading through that forum and have only spotted about 4-6 actual issues the rest are repeats or dumb comments (up to page 42).
Personaly I am far from a developer, but taking the time reading through threads has given me a lot of knowledge about what my device can do.
I like the ideas of having some kind of feature that NooB's can join, and even download, but at their own risk, and after a waiting period can then post etc. even if you make it just for the WM6 forums until a branded official rom is released in q3

Im wondering what the mods opinion is on this issue??
I think probably the best thing to do is as phatfarm suggested, a postcount limit which you must have before you can download an attachment? Thing is the wiki does have the links to the various ROMs so thats the way you get around it.

mrvanx said:
Im wondering what the mods opinion is on this issue??
I think probably the best thing to do is as phatfarm suggested, a postcount limit which you must have before you can download an attachment? Thing is the wiki does have the links to the various ROMs so thats the way you get around it.
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That in conjunction with a 30 day waiting period would work for Noobs.

I totally Agree
I totally agree with you guys. It's sad to see how things have turned out lately. I have been to this site off and on for a few years now (just reading actually), and loved everything that I read. Now in a sense I can be called a noob (I joined in 2/07), but technically I am not. I am coming from the symbian os (Nokia N93) and the minute that I got my windows mobile phone (February of this year - 8525), I joined this site. I read and read and read, never really felt the need to post, because you can find everything you need either by the wiki or just plain clicking on the search button, but I guess most people don't see that button
Anyway, I agree that something should be done to stop what has been happening in the last month, but I don't think that saying we should have a senior member forum only or you have to have this amount of post to get it, will work. Because if you look at JJ's, Kyphurs, LVSW threads, you will see that there were people who had a lot post and even a few junior and senior members who complained and questioned. There are a lot of people who come on and actually read and never post, because they search and figure things out without having to question these great chefs. I personally don't want to have to come on here and began to post everyday to get to junior and/or senior status. I never once complained since being here and believe me, since the release of these WM6 roms (Kyphur's first), I have been flashing 2-3 times per week. So much, my wife has gotten sick of it.
I think, you should continue to let people join and continue to flash, with the understanding that, they are doing everything at their own risk. What I think should be done is, people who have been a member for 3-6 months or less would have to have there post/threads approved by the mod's before it could be posted. Sought of like on myspace when you post your initial pic, they tell you that it is pending approval and that it if approved, it should be posted within 24 hours. They even have a function where you can have it set on your page, that if a person leaves you a comment, it will not post until it has been approved by you. You can either delete or post it. That's how I have my page set up. It would be a lot more work on the mod's, (I don't even know if that is capable), but it would cut back a lot of stress on all of the chefs and even the people who really sit and read/search and get the answers that they need.
What do yo think?

True, this would be much more easier to contain if M$ didn't shut down the ability to put roms on the FTP. People could earn their way in, maybe give access to certain users could be a lot of admin work entering all the compliant users, I would be willing to help with something to that degree, giving time to those that spend countless hours helping out people like me.

JuniorPhatFarm said:
As I've frequented my fair amount of forums, I'd suggest for specific ROM Downloads, or Radio Downloads, Cab files, that users there me be a hidden link and set for users to see if they have a certain amount of posts. Good to that is that you will see Quickly who is simply spamming to get access. Just a thought... I've been able to SuperCid, and Sim Unlock, as well as upgrade to WM6, just by reading several posts and the WIKI. It's really not that difficult.
Even me would not be able to access with some of these restrictions, but that is alright as something like this is very much needed.
ROMS = 50 posts, or active for 8- 12 months
Radio = 40 posts, or active 6 months
CAB files = 25 posts or active 3 months, etc...
Thoughts???
Click to expand...
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Idea sounds good but the noobs do tend to post a lot....
Most of it rubbish or repeated requests over and over and over...........
Another problem is that some of us (like me) have not been on the forums long but are far from noobs because we have only just switched to a hermes from another PDA
Suggest big sign on front page:
THIS IS NOT A SUPPORT SITE

Perhaps longer than thirty days? If you are serious about this stuff then there is sooooo much to read and understand, and then read again. This would hopefully avoid all the
"I just bricked my phone! - HELP ME"
or
"I want Crossbow - where can I download it"
where people do not read first.
Postcount limits might encourage lots of one line no purpose posts, and to sort the good from the bad requires a lot of time and effort from mods.

self inflicted problem?
one of the problems is that most *interesting* posts (new releases, etc) are 10+ pages long and full of pointless posts and cr*p ("can't wait", "downloading now", etc.). reading these posts have become more and more difficult. Doing a search also leads to loads of crappy posts.​
The problem is that the higher your rating / grade / status, the more likely you are to have innondated the forum earlier with pointless posts. A senior member-only forum (or similar) will create more incentives for people to post crappy things until their postcount is high enough... don't think this is the way forward.​
As for removing the link to WMBlackEd2.0 and stop releasing public updates: although i fully respect jasjamming's stand on this, I think it goes against the spirit of this great place. there is a difference between "decommissioning" something, and not "supporting it" anymore. I feel the link to the download should be there for people to install the rom and try it, and future releases made public (if thats what he intended to do in the first place) but the thread should be a closed one: people, download it and support it yourself or don't download it at all if you don't know what you're doing.​
maybe this will deter enough neebies from the site and help make this place the great place it used to be.​
the wiki should be used as front page for the site, with all resources there. I am sure not everyone knows about the wiki, as it is somewhat hidden from the main xda-developer page.​
just my thoughts...​
by the way, I have not posted for a while as i upgraded / downgraded / sorted out issues all by myself after doing loads of reading and searching... but I must admit that only 10% of the posts on the whole site are helpful/meaningful - the rest is an attempt by people to increase their postcount.... and this really puts me off.

about recent hostilities

Sorry this is so long but I feel strongly about this.
I too have few posts as anyone can see. I joined in Sep '06 but have been an avid reader of this forum since my company bought me a Siemens SX66 several years ago.
While I have noticed a marked decline in the quality of posts on this site, I have also seen an amazing increase in the quality of products the senior people have put out.
I think this fact coupled with the rising popularity of Windows Mobile and HTC products is inviting more and more people who would be otherwise too scared to try flashing their expensive gear to feel comfortable enough to give it a go.
Personally, I consider this a hobbyist site and as such, while the senior people will only gain experience and become more adept at their hobby, the noobs will continue to be noobs with the same noob questions, just more of them.
If this site is ever to work as an open hobbyist site, then I think it behooves everyone to step back and take a breath and think about what that goal will require.
1) Seniors - as your skills improve, and you work in this hobby more and more, you will inevitably see more and more of the same questions. Have mercy on the noobs. Truly some are lazy leechers others are perhaps "just getting their feet wet." Everyone has to start somewhere and sometimes that "start" begins with what you may think is a dumb question but is considered valid to the user asking it.
2) Noobs - think about your questions before you ask them. Realize that you are getting the benefits of senior people in this hobby and treat them accordingly. They are doing more to give you free "customer service" than the companies that you gave your money to in the first place.
3) Everyone - I see this problem as having many smaller pieces that perhaps can be improved to help create a better environment.
a) The built-in vBulletin search function sucks arse. Someone posted how to search this site using Google. Perhaps removing the built-in search would get people more familiar with a better search tool and perhaps return more relevant entries.
b) Pay to play - If you are a serious hobbyist then paying a subscription fee to gain access to the hard work others have done should be worth it. You can't or won't pay then you are on your own.
c) Private or Tiered forum for more Senior folks. Entry could be by application/invite allowing a senior moderator to evaluate the applicants quality of participation first. This would also force noobs to start contributing to the group versus just leeching.
Lastly, I have seens several posts where it is obvious that English is not their first or even learned language. I have read the wiki for my device and I have had to read parts several times to understand them. I think for many to whom the language might be a barrier to participation a little extra patience should be granted.
This is an absolutely awesome forum. I have been a benefactor of the work others have done and have several devices that are much more usable, enjoyable and longer lived because of this site. It would be a shame for this forum to crumble under the weight of the hostility that has been present the last few months.
Please, let's all find a way to keep this site useful, friendly and enjoyable for all of its participants.

Some good points but I personally don't have any problems with the search as you have got the options to search the forums, narrowing down your options, and the search this thread to really go deeper.
What I have seen on other forums is - like you say in point c - a lockdown of specific groups until you've got a certain number of posts/been around for a while/been approved so that it can be established that you're familiar with the forum and don't just post crap/leech stuff. Maybe something like that could be employed.
But let's face it, the quality of releases lately has brought far more attention to this forum rather than those who would come here because they knew what they were doing.
Just my thoughts.

If people are offended by Senior members when they ask a stupid question, then they can go somewhere else. HoFo is a great place for beginners. And since ROM flashing isn't a task fot for a beginner, there is no place here for those members.
Sure, I've asked stupid questions, been confused, etc., but I normally seek out a solution. Many n00bs (as they're commonly called) just ask without searching - and that's often obvious to those who are willing to read a 55-page thread.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the ROM kitchen. Period.

I agree with most of what you say.
I have been on this forum for more than 4 years now and it's been the best forum I have ever used to play around with my "toys".
Noobs are noobs and I even ask silly questions sometimes but I think that this site should remain the same.... It's a gold mine for every person like me wanting to play around and get the best out of his toy.
Long life to this forum

I've been on so many forums for so long and all of the ones that are any good have these very same issues. I recently read a post on a forum of another open source project that I absolutely love (Handbrake) and I think the post you can find here by one of their chief developers has some correlation to this current situation.
If you're too lazy to mosie over to the link...the gist of the post is that open source projects are just that. They are open sourced. That doesn't mean one has carte blanche to ask for help on this or that, to ask for this feature or that feature, to whine and complain, to moan and groan, or to trash somebody's work when it doesn't work like you want it to. It means that a usually small but dedicated group of individuals got together and tried to find a solution to a problem that they had. In the case of this post...it's about open source software...but I think you could say the same thing about ROM cooking here. There is enough information here that if you see or try something that doesn't work for you...try to fix it yourself (or as many have stated...search and see if it's already been fixed by someone). But in the end...I don't think you'll ever stamp out noob crap entirely. Think about it...just walk down the street or turn on your television or flip on your radio...how many idiots do you see or hear? Trust me...we are far outnumbered... But maybe...with a little help...we can at least edumacate em a little bit.

richy240 said:
If people are offended by Senior members when they ask a stupid question, then they can go somewhere else. HoFo is a great place for beginners. And since ROM flashing isn't a task fot for a beginner, there is no place here for those members.
Sure, I've asked stupid questions, been confused, etc., but I normally seek out a solution. Many n00bs (as they're commonly called) just ask without searching - and that's often obvious to those who are willing to read a 55-page thread.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the ROM kitchen. Period.
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Totally agree on that. Root of the problem seems to be low propensity to read given by large amounts of useless threads/posts, which makes it harder to search as well. By ignoring the reading/searching phase there is even more clutter being made.
The procedure how to get the info you need:
READ > SEARCH > THINK > POST
Sequence is important in that case!
Same applies to posts made entirely in language other than English > these are useless for vast majority of readers, please consider sending a PM when talking to your nationals.
'nuff said. Long live the XDA-Dev!

I think most of the gripes are about pointless posts eg, "whoohoo!", "cool", "downloading now" that just take up space and make getting to the valuable posts more difficult. Then there are the noob questions that are simple to answer but extremely annoying when repeating many many times. I am a noob to this forum and this phone but not about computers and porgramming. I have also made a donation to jasjamming and wish him the best. My proposal to end some of the madness is to seperate out the type of posts, which seem to be threefold 1. appreciation/useless banter 2. noob questions/simple questions 3. decent and high quality posts that make xda dev a great forum. So one thread about technical stuff that will contain good and useful info and another being the noob questions useless banter. Maybe split the noob questions and appreciation thread and forget about one or the other. This will make the mods life a lot easier and make reading the forum a lot more palatable and organise the threads in a meaningful way. Again sorry to see jasjamming go so soon after joining this forum. Hope he comes back at some stage.

KarhU said:
Totally agree on that. Root of the problem seems to be low propensity to read given by large amounts of useless threads/posts, which makes it harder to search as well. By ignoring the reading/searching phase there is even more clutter being made.
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Yeah. The problem is compounding itself. I think we should continue to offend the n00bs that way they go away and quit asking stupid questions.

Perhaps creating/moving this and other hardcore forums to private/access controlled area would help.
HoFo is part of the trouble but so is Google and search bots which read public forums. That brings a lot of new readers/noobs.
I've been on sites that have both public and private fora, and the Google/non approved members can't get at the private side which helps a lot.
Just so long as I'm a member of the private side.

Personally i think this forum would work better if there were more forums, say inside the hermes mobile 6 one there was one for each rom. Then if users were encouraged to post new topics for different faults the stupid pointless topics could just be ignored and end up pages back or even deleted while the usefull topics would stay near the top with only relavent content inside.
Anyway thats not for me to decide and just to note i hardly ever feel the need to post cos i've always found a fix for my problems by reading. It might take a few mins longer to find an answer than to start a post but it saves you looking stupid.

I fully support the idea of a subscription to the forums. I'm a member of another subscription-based forum, and it leads to more productive posts and queries, better quality of member base, and an intelligent quorum. That site is $9.95 for a lifetime membership, less a ban of course -- and I find that more than fair.
I don't post much either, I just soak up knowledge here. I try not to ask questions unless absolutely necessary, and instead reap the benefits from the great minds at work..

I love the forum and I think we all agree on this point. I am a moderator on several other PDA related sites. I know first hand how hard it can be to try and get the new folks to use the search function and read The Bold Print but I have found with my experience that using post counts to advance members to hidden forums only invites spam and useless posts. I can also say that wading through 80 sum pages of "thank you's" and "questions that where answered in the first post but I just looked for the link to download and didn't read" posts, is long and quite aggravating. Also trying to use the search function for things like finding a fix to an MMS problem is near to imposable. What I have seen here recently that I like is when something is released like a new WM6 build, there could be 2 treads started one for real questions (Advanced) and issues and one for the new folks to ask there new folk questions (Beginners). Not restricting access to the "Advance" tread, just the ability to post. I don't mind helping the new folks a little because I was new once. I can also say that I read information on this site for 4 days before I attempted to flash a new rom to my device. ( was scared to death ) and some of the questions the new folks asked, I also wanted the answer too. Lots of times some senior member would help them with a link or advice and this helped me also. I think if anything you should have to be a member here for say 3 or 4 days before you are allowed to post. Then maybe a week or two before you could post in the "Advanced" threads. This would hopefully send more new folks eager to find the answers to there questions, into the forums using the search and reading the comment of others a little more closely.
Just my thoughts
JD

I am new here and have refrained from posting until now. I have been using jj's WM VI 2.0 for a couple of days now (best so far) and must say that I find what is going on here to be quite annoying. My reason for being annoyed is because I have had my 8525 for several months now and have recently become quite bored with it, awaiting the release of new devices so I could have a new toy. Well jasjamming changed that with a couple rom updates.
All I am saying is for all of the noobs here including myself, "beggars cant be choosers" If the people that generously make these rom updates and advice available want us to do something in order to make this equitable for them, then we need to do as they wish without question. What is so difficult about this? Especially since it really doesn't seem like there asking much in return.
Just think about it, from what I see we all eagerly await each and every new release and now people are upset like me because we like having access to these updates and now we don't. I just think it is wasteful to disrupt such a wonderful arrangement.
Just my .02 but I really enjoy this site and would hate to see it change.
On a side note... I really enjoy this site so for all parties involved in creating/ maintaining this sight, many thanks!

Thanks button?
I will now throw my 2 cents in as well. I too have not posted much, but have managed to upgrade the ROM on my Hermes a few times without having to seek "professional help". I think we all appreciate the effrorts of the few that provide the rewards for the many. I used to be a SuperMod on a SonyEricsson modding site (before I found the Windows Mobile joy).
I have seen a "Thanks Button" used quite effectively - I think it is in the newer releases of vBulletin. It cuts a lot of the crap. Also, I would support a "no post for 10 days" and "read only, except by invitation" threads.
If you can express gratitude simply, have to read and learn for 10 days (and you KNOW they won't wait to try the flash) and get to read what the Seniors and Mods are saying and download the fruits of their labors, but cannot interfere, I think that would raise the quality of the experience for everyone. Sorry I went so long - I love XDA and want to see it continue to dominate.
PS: It is funny to see someone with the nick "poopmongrel" lamenting the low quality of the forum participants - ;-) That isn't meant to be mean, just funny!

richy240 said:
Yeah. The problem is compounding itself. I think we should continue to offend the n00bs that way they go away and quit asking stupid questions.
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Does that really work? Or do the n00bs just argue back? It seems recently they will just start arguing that "I did search, you *expletive*" or something like that.
If there were a way to rate individual posts like Digg and Slashdot, then you could set a ratings threshold (like view all rated > -1) and not even see the n00b posts that other people flagged unless you specifically click to expand the hidden post.

chenga said:
Does that really work? Or do the n00bs just argue back? It seems recently they will just start arguing that "I did search, you *expletive*" or something like that.
If there were a way to rate individual posts like Digg and Slashdot, then you could set a ratings threshold (like view all rated > -1) and not even see the n00b posts that other people flagged unless you specifically click to expand the hidden post.
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I don't know... Probably not. I was really just talking out of my ass. But when someone answers like that, they obviously shouldn't expect an accurate answer. If someone said that to me after answering a question, I wouldn't give them the time of day.

Wasn't everybody a n00b at one time?
It would be a shame to 'close the forum down' to noobs. There's a first for everything. And -yes!- noobs can ask stupid questions, but you could just ignore them. I've read some good suggestions reading the threads complaining about the newbies on this forum. ("thank you button", "noob area" and "a timeslot between downloading/registering" eg.)
Without this forum I'm pretty sure my Hermes would still run on WM5 since there's no real alternative to this forum. The senior members and chefs provide information (at least I) could not find anywhere else. Like many junior members (I guess) I spend the most time reading and not posting. Reading and learning. So getting 'senior' by just posting will not improve the forum quality.
To bad some (a) chef(s) are just so fed up they don't share their work anymore, but I can understand. People should be more gratefull for their hard work. Especially if you do not have the skills to cook a rom yourself!

I think the problem is more than just asking questions, even basic ones. It is the attitude of some users who seem to expect the contributors of the ROMs to support them. As a software developer myself, I've experienced many such types who think that just because they downloaded your software for free, they are entitled to your support. I believe it is this sort of "stupidity" and arrogance that really gets the goat of those who work hard to contribute something.
In this case, the fault isn't merely one of tolerance, it is one of attitude. If a guy comes in and gets free stuff from you, and then turns back and demand you fix their machine, while bad-mouthing you - surely you can see how this will make the whole enterprise un-worthwhile for the contributor. Not only are they not getting any tangible remuneration for their work, they are now having to put up with such arrogance. Now, who in their right mind would want to continue contributing in a community that is unappreciative (though arguably there will always be those who are appreciative).
The key then is to keep the unappreciative out until they learn some respect and appreciation. When they learn that what they're getting is not a right but a privilege, out of the goodwill of the contributors. If they are not happy, they can go elsewhere and not use the product. If they're sincere, then they should make the effort to learn. Regardless of the complaints of how hard it is to use the search function (how hard can it be??). In this case the onus is NOT on the contributors but on the end-user.
I see this kind of scenario happening:-
1. Newbie hears about WM6 and thinks its so cool.
2. Pesters friend for link and ends up here.
3. Get excited at the level of activity and prospect of getting something for free.
4. Get frustrated because they don't know where to start.
5. Post basic questions about which is the best ROM etc.
6. Decides to go with the "best" ROM.
7. Bricks the machine or finds a bug or loses some features.
8. Get frustrated and angry and vents at the ROM chefs (or Olipro.
9. Tries to read site for the first time but too lazy to work through the posts (it does take time but that is expected.)
10. Pester others to help them unbrick their machine.
11. Unbricks machine and starts again with another ROM variant.
12. Cycle repeats itself.
I'm not saying that all newbies are like this. Many lurkers actually read through all the related posts. The problem we're facing has to do with those who want the benefits without having to spend the time reading and researching and learning some general knowledge about the ROM flashing process. To make things worse, these same types usually have attitudes of self-righteous indignation which makes them a pain to tolerate. This is the kind of person you want to keep out of the community. IMO.
Daniel

swtaltima said:
I am new here and have refrained from posting until now. I have been using jj's WM VI 2.0 for a couple of days now (best so far) and must say that I find what is going on here to be quite annoying. My reason for being annoyed is because I have had my 8525 for several months now and have recently become quite bored with it, awaiting the release of new devices so I could have a new toy. Well jasjamming changed that with a couple rom updates.
All I am saying is for all of the noobs here including myself, "beggars cant be choosers" If the people that generously make these rom updates and advice available want us to do something in order to make this equitable for them, then we need to do as they wish without question. What is so difficult about this? Especially since it really doesn't seem like there asking much in return.
Just think about it, from what I see we all eagerly await each and every new release and now people are upset like me because we like having access to these updates and now we don't. I just think it is wasteful to disrupt such a wonderful arrangement.
Just my .02 but I really enjoy this site and would hate to see it change.
On a side note... I really enjoy this site so for all parties involved in creating/ maintaining this sight, many thanks!
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I have to agree here. What ticks me off is the fact that alot of people here come in, flash a ROM without reading or researching then DEMAND a solution...not once...not twice...but sometimes three and four times in a short time span.
I have no right to DEMAND someone to fix something that either (1) I caused; (2) I didn't read enough to see that it was a known issue and flashed anyway; (3) a known issue with an open source software on a DEVELOPER's sight with I am NOT a developer.
What I see the issue to be is ingratitude, sense of entitlement and tender emotions. If you're feelings are going to get hurt then you shouldn't post. The developers here don't owe anybody here a thing. Plain and simple.
Politically correct? No. Do I care? No.
Jim

I Love Xda-developers.com!
Spread The Peace!

Suggestion for the next Black Rom Thread

[Introduction] As I bought a Tytn in December 2006 I started to visit these forums since then. Although I’m used to computers and programming since at about 1982 I had to learn a lot about flashing, security arrangements before flashing and so on. So I tried to read all the other postings and the wiki. After some weeks I flashed the first Rom, everything went well until now. Then – some weeks ago – Jasjamming was “a bit angry” about all the postings in the Black2 thread. First I couldn’t reproduce his anger but after some days of absence from the forums I noticed that’s its more or less impossible to read some hundred postings with the same topic in a thread. Now JJ again requested more discipline:
jasjamming said:
Therefore a note to Noobs: stop flooding with jargon because you will only be hurting yourself and other members of this forum. Also remember that these ROMS are provided to you by people that do them for fun, we are not your Telco Operator, we dont provide service to you if your 3G connection or access point connections have been erased when flashing. You flash at your own risk, if something goes wrong its on your head. Also remember that the amount of information you get on this forum from other member far exceed the support you will get from your Telco. Therefore dont deman anything and dont expect anything, if someone helps you be grateful.
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This time he did it in a very very polite way and again he is right. I know that I did nothing special for the community besides answering some easy questions and I’m not sure if I’m entitled to make suggestions. Anyway: What about different threads for the next Rom? One as already available for “nontech matters” and “thanks for the great rom JJ” postings, one more for questions like “provider gprs/mms settings” and one for technical feedbacks to this rom to make it easier for the developers to eliminate mistakes and to improve their work.
Just my 2 cents but maybe it works to give better feedback to all the guys who are working hard in their spare time to give us all a nearly perfect working phone.
BTW: I’ve sworn to myself not to answer to statements like this
I'm not some teenage snot noob, I'm a 37 year old professional, running a company... I have better & more important things to do with my life than trawl through pages & pages of threads. .
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but I can not resist, sorry for that . In my opinion its irrelevant who somebody is and what he is doing in his private life and/or his job. If somebody is seeking for advice in a forum like this and he has not time enough to read all the other posts and the wiki/guides then apparently he found the wrong place for asking questions. I for myself wasn’t very impressed that a gentleman who is running a company is posting in this forum (but I would have been impressed if he would have had some useful hints for all). Thanks to wpbear for not answering this posting.
Conclusion: I’m very grateful to all the Romcookers for providing us improved Roms and to everybody who is giving advices, writing guides and so on. Thanks to everybody and keep it up.

Black
I bought the Hermes with great expectation and was disappointed soon with the ROM that came with it. If this site doesn't exist, I would probably had change to the Nokia N95 or something else.
I had flashed the South African ROM first and got it working. Black 2.0 was the only cooked ROM I've flashed. I had a few trouble when loaded tons of software in the beginning. I learned my lessons and hard reset with a little discipline. Black 2.0 has met my need. I run a company myself and I am thankful for those went the extra mile to help others out, something I wish more people can learn from.
I am grateful for JJ and the other chef who had made my device productive which otherwise would have been a total waste.
So, THANK YOU TO THE CHEFS.

if it wasnt for these guys i would still be using wm5 - and italy is usually the last country getting any updates...
LVSW and black are both great roms, i like switching from one to another to see their improvements
i read for hours and check this forum almost daily... i wish i had some knowledge to share but for now i can only learn from the big chefs
keep up to good job guys

@Gerals_S
I have to back you on this. Well said! I will resist the temptation to add more to your statement...

I suggested something similar in this previous thread
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=306514
however shogun mark says that the admins have no intention of changing the current system and closed the thread.. Am sure they will do likewise to this one...

You suggested sub-forums and this would change nothing. Everybody would post again in one thread and the thread would explode like the others before. I suggested to make 3 threads, for example:
.) Black3,5 - non tech comments
Here everybody can post things like "JJ u r great"
.) Black3,5 - Settings & Programs Issues
Everything about 3rd party software not running, provider settings....
.) Black3,5 - Hardcore Tech Thread
For all the real tech issues and solutions
So JJ could see very clear whether a new Rom is running without issues or not and if he's in a bad mood he could have a look to all the "you are the man" postings in a different thread.

I know the mods don't want to spend their days doing so, but deleting useless comments (I've had a few, myself), wrong thread questions, and literally the same questions asked over and over, and these threads wouldn't be nearly as long. I'm not suggesting mods spend their days doing so, but as they read the threads for their own use and they see someone with 1 post asking where the Cingy version of 3.01 is, I think it should be removed. Just the egregiously stupid questions. How about anything related to BT problems in the pimping thread past the first 3x it was asked.
Also, I read complaints by the senior members that there are too many useless posts, but there are numerous 'senior members' that immediately post:
"Thanks, JJ. Downloading now.", and JJ, wowwwww, you are a god. Will report back with issues", for the first several pages of EVERY new ROM thread that is supposed to be limited to tech issues. For someone who likes to lurk and learn more than they post, this can be infuriating, especially when further back in the thread, those same people start tossing fireballs at the silly posters.
By now, the cooks know very well that what they do is invaluable, and sending them $$ for their effort is a good way to acknowledge it. Maybe if the cooks would acknowledge receipt of donations with a PM (JJ, you listening? I know my donation for Black 2.5 a few weeks ago was only enough to buy a few drinks, but a ty PM would have been nice), people wouldn't feel the need to throw themselves at the feet of these cooks with every new release, update, or utterance.
I think 2.5 spoiled people because it had every flavor for everyone, and people could install it without even reading the wiki. While Mr. Vanx upgrade guides are so useful, they are a shortcut for putting in the time to learn. I think that's why we are seeing so many people upgrading to the latest and greatest (3.0.0, 3.0.1) who have absolutely no business doing so, and then complaining that things don't work flawlessly on beta versions we download from this board.
For the noobs reading this, I for one do not download a new ROM until it has been vetted for a few weeks by the hardcore flashers, AND I stay current with the new rom thread to make sure issues people are having will not be deal breakers for me if they occur. If you are new to this board, and not a developer, read, listen, and LEARN.
Sorry for the long message, but it's getting harder to read all the threads on here. I'm trying, but if I fall behind for a day, it can be brutal to 'catch up'.
ALSO: I just was on HOFO - I go there from time to time and I just noticed many 'senior' posters there are pointing noobs to XDA. If you do this, you are pointing people without a clue to this board, many of whom will start posting silly beginner questions.

On the note of donations, my PM inbox is more cluttered than the threads, therefore I have given up most of the time to read my inbox. But rest assured that your donations are appreciated as I keep developing the ROMS for you guys. If i didnt appreciate your donations I would have stopped releasing ROMS at Blac 2.0.
Therefore dont take offense if i dont PM you back as my time is pretty much being consumed by reading 1000+ posts in a thread trying to sort out what the issues are.
I will give you an example of my PM inbox (which has at the moment around 980 messages in there - I cleaned it last week without reading any of them) - I have hundres of posts entitled "cingular version" "tmobile version" "3g not working" "where is vjtools" "will this work on a wizard"...
Hence i gave up.
Like i said, donations are appreciated and my appreciation is shown in further releases and my free time that i sacrifice to help this community with my ROMS to help your hermes be what it is supposed to be (my mrs is making me sleep on the sofa )
Now, on the issue of bloated threads, Black 3.5 will most likely no be released here but on a forum that I moderate and membership is tight hence I and others can control noob posts with attitude. In addition, to download the ROM, you must become a member. Hopefully I will have more control over the situation. This forum I speak of has 3 strict rules and one of them is:
1. If you post stupid noob questions or responses - you will be banned immediately without warning.
As per my professional job, you sometimes have to hit people really hard so they learn their lesson, warnings just aint enough. So sit tight, Black 3.5 is currently being developed with new drivers and some other tweaks, but will most likely not be hosted here, hence xda-developers.com has the right to delete any threads started by members here as they will not be hosting my new BLACK ROM.
Cheers,
JJ
mbn said:
I know the mods don't want to spend their days doing so, but deleting useless comments (I've had a few, myself), wrong thread questions, and literally the same questions asked over and over, and these threads wouldn't be nearly as long. I'm not suggesting mods spend their days doing so, but as they read the threads for their own use and they see someone with 1 post asking where the Cingy version of 3.01 is, I think it should be removed. Just the egregiously stupid questions. How about anything related to BT problems in the pimping thread past the first 3x it was asked.
Also, I read complaints by the senior members that there are too many useless posts, but there are numerous 'senior members' that immediately post:
"Thanks, JJ. Downloading now.", and JJ, wowwwww, you are a god. Will report back with issues", for the first several pages of EVERY new ROM thread that is supposed to be limited to tech issues. For someone who likes to lurk and learn more than they post, this can be infuriating, especially when further back in the thread, those same people start tossing fireballs at the silly posters.
By now, the cooks know very well that what they do is invaluable, and sending them $$ for their effort is a good way to acknowledge it. Maybe if the cooks would acknowledge receipt of donations with a PM (JJ, you listening? I know my donation for Black 2.5 a few weeks ago was only enough to buy a few drinks, but a ty PM would have been nice), people wouldn't feel the need to throw themselves at the feet of these cooks with every new release, update, or utterance.
I think 2.5 spoiled people because it had every flavor for everyone, and people could install it without even reading the wiki. While Mr. Vanx upgrade guides are so useful, they are a shortcut for putting in the time to learn. I think that's why we are seeing so many people upgrading to the latest and greatest (3.0.0, 3.0.1) who have absolutely no business doing so, and then complaining that things don't work flawlessly on beta versions we download from this board.
For the noobs reading this, I for one do not download a new ROM until it has been vetted for a few weeks by the hardcore flashers, AND I stay current with the new rom thread to make sure issues people are having will not be deal breakers for me if they occur. If you are new to this board, and not a developer, read, listen, and LEARN.
Sorry for the long message, but it's getting harder to read all the threads on here. I'm trying, but if I fall behind for a day, it can be brutal to 'catch up'.
ALSO: I just was on HOFO - I go there from time to time and I just noticed many 'senior' posters there are pointing noobs to XDA. If you do this, you are pointing people without a clue to this board, many of whom will start posting silly beginner questions.
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Question...
What is a noob???

jj my only hope is that you will find it in your heart to let me be a part of black 3.5 if u have time and look at my posts ull see they are usefull and not noobish. i read your threads from top to bottom and know how to search. pm me if u let me. back on topic. thank you for all your roms and i look forward to the next. i been with black since 2.0 and am proud. i read and make the rom perfect. loving 3.0.1 love your roms so much that im staying at 3.0.1 and have my bluetooth off and headset sitting on the desk bc of the bluetooth problems and aint complainging bc ur current is just as fast and stable as you said.

jasjamming said:
On the note of donations, my PM inbox is more cluttered than the threads, therefore I have given up most of the time to read my inbox. But rest assured that your donations are appreciated as I keep developing the ROMS for you guys. If i didnt appreciate your donations I would have stopped releasing ROMS at Blac 2.0.
Therefore dont take offense if i dont PM you back as my time is pretty much being consumed by reading 1000+ posts in a thread trying to sort out what the issues are.
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JJ - Thanks for the response. I like your idea of a limited release and restricted access. Given the increasing hysteria each of your releases has generated, and the growing number of people that have no clue that are flashing, I think that's the right idea.
I just sent you a PM. Please read it .

My 2c..
Personally I think it helps to have "it works great" and "has problem with xyz" in the same discussion as you can get a feel for how many people find a tool/app/rom release stable/problematic.
"Thanks, will download now" seems more appropriate as a PM between people who at least vaguely know each other, or have exchanged posts regularly.

In regard to your new forum, JJ you may like to do a breakdown of individual modules. IE: a thread with your new build then sub folders under that with BT, wireless, phone, etc.
I've been using Groove (www.groove.com) before it was purchased by MS for our techs on the road with new software releases and the way one can setup workspaces has really saved time. We create a software workspace, then sub folders under that workspace for every module and the filtering system works well IF and only IF people put something relevant in the title.
The techs on the Groove space are severerly reprimanded if they reply to posts with useless or trivial info. My research (physically counting in most cases) has shown that more threads are bloated by people throwing retorts back at less than satisfactory posters, hence they are treated more harshly.
There has not been one of our tech or development team who has not at some stage posted a complete dickheaded post.
We have found that if the OP doesn't get a reply to their less than adequate post they tend to realize why after a short time and start to read our wiki a little more thoroughly.
I've read all of that 96 odd pages of the build 3.xx Black to see if it would fit with my way of doing things on the Hermes. It looks like I won't be seeing another cut of it, though.
JJ, you have a hell of a lot more patience than me, mate. I would have simply pulled the ROM quicker than a bargirl can grab you a beer in Phuket.
Sure everyone like to receive kudos, but reading that arselicking first couple of pages of the Black 3.xx thread was like listening to my 13 year old neice talking with her friends...
How about some of you "senior" members start pulling your heads in and acting like senior members. Just ignore the stupid bloody posts. You don't have to a freaking rocket scientist to realize that every post you reply to is bloating the thread more.
Now I feel like a ****ing goose cos I've just bloated this one.
cheers,

Keeping it simple.
JJ and all the other cooks out there,
1st off, thank you for all your hard work. So far I have enjoyed playing with 5 different ROMs due to your generosity. Black 3.0 rocks and I like that I can add the apps that I want without all the extras.
As a noob myself, I always thought that there were no stupid questions... until I started reading the forums. I am amazed at how bloated the forums are with "Downloading now..." and "You rock". I wonder if there are any moderators even reading anymore. Can a moderator zap a poster with an automatic 1 week no posting “time-out”? If so, I might volunteer to mod ;->
So here is my $0.03 (inflation is hell) worth of suggestion on top of the ones being tossed in the mix. In your initial posting to announce your next great act of kindness and generosity, just include a link to the technical issues forum post for Black 3.5... You don’t really have to hide it… Just don’t make it too obvious.
All the goobers will spin their wheels going "Wow..." and "Thanks, downloading now..." in the first forum which will attract the dumb noobs who ask or demand for the easy answers. Those that read will know where to go for real issues and input. Kind of like a “too friken lazy to read when I can just type” filter.
Just a thought and since this forum is for “Suggestion for the next Black Rom Thread” I figure it’s safe to post this one…
Thanks again for all your work, I am amazed at what you accomplish.

gfunkmelody said:
What is a noob???
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A new WM6 ROM thats better than Bill Gates' own. Cooked just for you.

gfunkmelody said:
What is a noob???
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Anyone else see any irony here? I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
JJ, props on the tightly restricted forum idea - just please leave it open for people to read. Some people actually do read.

I fully understand why JJ is doing what he is with the next release i just think it a shame that the community has to fragment to survive . It will make the dissemination of knowledge that more difficult and on a personal level make life a tad more complicated having to check multiple sites rather that just multiple forums in one site.
But keep up the good work all i for one am so happy your all here my friend bought an HP 6815 and hes stuck on wm5.
Laters
Matt

Let people use your hard work
Hi JJ,
I'm using black from first version on tytn, i tried a lot of others rom before, but only black can give me more satisfaction and i feel more stable.I'm not using post any question, just because everything working well, or because i already find the answer on the forum.Anyway you must know that a lot of people maybe use your roms but as no time to test a lot so as no reason to give you a lot of feedback.i just think that people demonstrate your hard work is very appreciated.
Anyway, maybe you cook these roms for yourself but i think any person who use it give you more satisfaction. Of course a work regarding so many persons will produde massive reactions and a lot of posts, but without some of them your roms not so good.
So let people at least download.
Your work help the community.
Any work as a boring part, in your case a lot of posts.

Wtf: Black & White!!

It sucks that we have to go to 3 or 4 differnet sites now to get the most out of our Hermes! Black is now on win4 and others are taking thier ROM's other places. We are ruining what used to be great about having a forum, and that was having a choice.
Remember when you waited for Kypher's WXL2.0? were you like me and checked every day til it came out?
And then LSVW came out. Then Black! and wow Black1.2, and Black2.0!
Are we going to let Noobs take that feeling from us?! Screw the noobs...let them read and learn like the rest of us. I read through 1000 post threads and so should they! Its time for some tough love, discipline and ignoring them will help them grow.
JJ come back! Kypher; where are you? Make this the one stop cooking shop!

All you have to do to keep everything at THIS forum is not go to the new ones. Don't give their new roms any word of mouth etc. If they see no one gives a darn about their "new home" they will come back. It's that simple...

Shadowmite said:
All you have to do to keep everything at THIS forum is not go to the new ones. Don't give their new roms any word of mouth etc. If they see no one gives a darn about their "new home" they will come back. It's that simple...
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With all due respect, based on discussions with some of the departed (voluntary and involuntary - LOL), it is not really about people giving a darn. It is more about the user experience on the board. While I appreciate what you are saying, I think that your statement VASTLY oversimplifies the reasons they left. While some may have been motivated by money, status, ego-stroking or whatever, for others it was simply about a more expertly focused site. I am sure that all communities would value your memebership.

well for some of us this is what we do because we love it and dont mind keeping up with the 1000 posts like you said. i know i like to fill my head with as much knowledge as i can so i'll keep on reading and learning

Shadowmite said:
All you have to do to keep everything at THIS forum is not go to the new ones. Don't give their new roms any word of mouth etc. If they see no one gives a darn about their "new home" they will come back. It's that simple...
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Could not agree more!!! This is why a parted with Black 3.01 and future Black roms unless the topic and rom is posted here on XDA.... Same goes for all future cookers. I wont sign up like i did for that buggy iPhone dialer on some Chinese website i could not even understand the text or the few english words and a day later my in box was full of junkmail, i believe now he is cooking a white rom and it will be posted on another forum... My point is the same, these guys are getting over them selfs and are forgetting their roots on XDA.

Sorry to dissagree some of yours opininions. I read the wiki, search the entire forum but nothing comming up
1/ Everyone here used to be a noob once.
2/ The open forum is always better than restricted forum, because the more ideals the better modifiers. Sometimes, it's quite annoyed; but, hey, life is not perfect. Also, there are too many people flame noobs by using abusive vocabularies. Why don't ppl just point out the directions, or simple keep their silent and let the moderators do their jobs?
3/ Those ppl whose posts just to say "tks, I'm downloading now", "wow, that's great" ... into thread of new ROM should be banned for at least 3 days. I saw many senior members do this also!!! Ppl can always show their appreciate to chefs by cliking on the Donation Button.
Hence, my solutions is:
a/ Moderators should do some more. If this forum is lack of janitors, I'm volunteer to be one.
b/ Ppl please limit your abusive languages and try to play nice to each others.
Regards.

I was going to post a similiar topic. It is sad that the XDA we loved is not going to be here anymore..at least not with the same variety we had before. I do not have the time to read 4 message boards just to find the best ROM.
I hope LVSW and CUSTEL and XDALive (if it ever comes back to life) remain here on XDA since they are the best ROMs anyway. We need the Pofs' Olipro's, Tadzio etc......hope we dont loose anyone else.

Nghiem said:
Sorry to dissagree some of yours opininions. I read the wiki, search the entire forum but nothing comming up
1/ Everyone here used to be a noob once.
2/ The open forum is always better than restricted forum, because the more ideals the better modifiers. Sometimes, it's quite annoyed; but, hey, life is not perfect. Also, there are too many people flame noobs by using abusive vocabularies. Why don't ppl just point out the directions, or simple keep their silent and let the moderators do their jobs?
3/ Those ppl whose posts just to say "tks, I'm downloading now", "wow, that's great" ... into thread of new ROM should be banned for at least 3 days. I saw many senior members do this also!!! Ppl can always show their appreciate to chefs by cliking on the Donation Button.
Hence, my solutions is:
a/ Moderators should do some more. If this forum is lack of janitors, I'm volunteer to be one.
b/ Ppl please limit your abusive languages and try to play nice to each others.
Regards.
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1. Noobs still need to read and search. We often see noob threads that end when a link to a previous thread points in the right direction. Do you really think we just had that link saved in a Favorite...NO...someone searched for it.
2. I agree the open forums are great. But if you dont like foul langauge too bad! I dont use it often or ever that I can recall, but Grow up, it is not like you never heard a bad word before...did feelings get hurt...too bad man up.
3. I agree 100%

Well it is sad what things have come down to, but we still have some awesome chefs here and experts that blow my mind away. Lets not lose love for them. I too am frustrated and irritated with all these noob posts that flood entire forum. And the hermes forum has a horrible rep now. I for one wanna be a help to this forum. Im on this forum for about 7 hours a day. And i would love to volunteer to take care of this forum. Just anything to do my part in helping all the mods here.

I am frustrated with the word "noob"... its as bad as "sku" was during the release of all of the gaming consoles. I've been lurking here for a while. I've used the search function and i think it completely sucks. I did a search for "video dialer" earlier and the first result was the black 3.0.1 thread... all 103 or so pages of it. That was typical for the next 20 results. You can't hate on every person that creates a seemingly useless thread. If you want to help reduce the thread counts, then improve the search results. There's no reason not to help a new person... if this was the same logic that went with creating ROMS, think how crappy they would be. If a chef yelled "GOOGLE!" everytime they were looking for a quicker/better/faster way of doing something with their soon-to-be-released ROM, we'd never get any new ROMS. I guess my point is this, i know it sucks to have 40 new threads each day when i visit this site. But, i dont go jumping on the people that posted them, rather i think the responsiblity lies more on the shoulders of the moderators (no offense guys/girls, but I've done a lot of posting to various forums, even moderated one or two in my day, and that's just where i stand)... If you want to help eliminate useless posts, clean up the wiki and implement a better search feature. (and yes, using google to search within this domain helps... but not all new people know that).
sorry for the rant.

Like some of the other posters here, I would gladly offer moderation services to this forum. I agree that good moderation is the key to keeping XDA-DEVELOPERS vital and flourishing. Would be happy to help encourage the good and thwart the bad.

The F Word
forum (n.) a public meeting or assembly for open discussion
forum (n.) a public facility to meet for open discussion
forum (n.) a place of assembly for the people in ancient Greece
Bottom line, get over it!!
Noob, Expert, Chef, Senior, whatever.... It's a place for everyone to discuss everything and anything about a related topic. That's how we get along in this crazy world by helping others, sharing knowledge, and communicating...
If you want an experts only club then go create one and make it a specialised chat room with a private login.
*rant over*

allready got 3 actually

Midget_1990 said:
allready got 3 actually
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Lol... Shows how much the mods care about this topic.

almost kinda like the topic says, black & white..
The whole issue here is a little more complex and not really a black and white issue.. This isnt the first time chefs have the left the boards for other things, and we always pick up new chefs.. and alot of the old school chefs are still here and plan to stay, the same chefs that helped create the roms you guys so highly speak of. One of them will be releasing his own rom soon. And there might be a chef leaving this board to avoid being banned due to abusive behavior..

shogunmark said:
The whole issue here is a little more complex and not really a black and white issue.. This isnt the first time chefs have the left the boards for other things, and we always pick up new chefs.. and alot of the old school chefs are still here and plan to stay, the same chefs that helped create the roms you guys so highly speak of. One of them will be releasing his own rom soon. And there might be a chef leaving this board to avoid being banned due to abusive behavior..
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Off topic, but I gotta say it ... I get a chuckle every time I see that damn monkey with a gun.

weinson said:
Off topic, but I gotta say it ... I get a chuckle every time I see that damn monkey with a gun.
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maybe if i ever cook a rom again it will make a nice splash screen, lol

shogunmark said:
maybe if i ever cook a rom again it will make a nice splash screen, lol
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In these trying times he'd make a rather suitable XDA mascot.

shogunmark said:
The whole issue here is a little more complex and not really a black and white issue.. This isnt the first time chefs have the left the boards for other things, and we always pick up new chefs.. and alot of the old school chefs are still here and plan to stay, the same chefs that helped create the roms you guys so highly speak of. One of them will be releasing his own rom soon. And there might be a chef leaving this board to avoid being banned due to abusive behavior..
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Surely you must agree that dropping developers and gaining new ones is a little erratic? It just ads to the confusion where people install a ROM from this forum, then have to go else where for maintenance. I think a lot of these problems could have been solved if the developers were given their own sub-forum (based on popularity) and they were made moderators of their forum. That's it. They would then be responsible for the maintenance and the progressive state of their section. Right now the closest thing we have is a thread, which ends up in a few hundred replies, majority of which is total crap.

MrSmith22 said:
Surely you must agree that dropping developers and gaining new ones is a little erratic? It just ads to the confusion where people install a ROM from this forum, then have to go else where for maintenance. I think a lot of these problems could have been solved if the developers were given their own sub-forum (based on popularity) and they were made moderators of their forum. That's it. They would then be responsible for the maintenance and the progressive state of their section. Right now the closest thing we have is a thread, which ends up in a few hundred replies, majority of which is total crap.
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MrSmith - I think that is an excellent suggestion/observation - fwiw

Feedback To Moderators [All 3 Threads Merged]

I need a diligent overseer to delete my account on xda-developers.com, please. vBulletin doesn't seem to give that option anywhere.
I can't have my words edited unless I'm the one doing the editing.
Thank you.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
EDIT: I have merged all three threads so everyone can post their feedback to moderators. Please, no flaming allowed. If you want to say something, say it politely and like some members already mentioned, let's be one big happy family i.e. come together and make this place a friendlier and a peaceful place without the need to leave the forum, point fingers at anyone or flame someone. If you guys want something done, PM us or any mods your request or concerns. We'll see to it that it will done based on the subject on hand.
Everyone is Welcome here and I'd like to keep it that way. If your upset with something, come to us so we can come to an agreement because we want everyone to be happy and not otherwise.
Enjoy your stay here, not regret signing up because XDA is wonderful place for us to come share our thoughts, contribute to the community and obviously, make some good friends while we're here.
Thanks for your co-operation in this matter, guys.
Best Regards,
lukybandit

What happened? You planning on leaving XDA? I wouldn't want you to as you put in a lot of efforts in keepin the wiki up to date. Your the only one who ever took interest in it and without you, we wouldn't have had any updates on the wiki and because of you, It was easier to compile a thread and sticky it. So please re-consider your decision.
On a side note, if mods did edit your posts, they have full right to. I don't know why a mod edited your posts but if you did use profanity or do something else, we're given right to either delete or edit a post but if it keeps happening for no reason, then by all means - report it.
Hope you do re-consider your decision.

No, I haven't reconsidered. Nor did I ask to be deleted to draw attention to myself. I would have done so quietly if the option were available.
But since it's out there ...I never saw anything in the posting rules about profanity. In fact, you, lukybandit, are fond of using some when you have problems (see the phantom alarm bug.) I did notice the posting rules calling this a "sacred place." If someone's words don't belong to him, there is no sanctity. In short, you all need to stop using the royal "we" a bit, coordinate your efforts better among yourselves, and stop creating problems where none exist. You're here to serve us, not the other way around.
My words are just that: MY words. If a mod has a problem with me or my speech, he should tell me, NOT edit my posts. I don't care if it's in your moderator handbook that you have the "right" to. Your right is wrong.
Power corrupts and I enjoy freedom. Please do me the honor of deleting my account.

beartard said:
No, I haven't reconsidered. Nor did I ask to be deleted to draw attention to myself. I would have done so quietly if the option were available.
But since it's out there ...I never saw anything in the posting rules about profanity. In fact, you, lukybandit, are fond of using some when you have problems (see the phantom alarm bug.) I did notice the posting rules calling this a "sacred place." If someone's words don't belong to him, there is no sanctity. In short, you all need to stop using the royal "we" a bit, coordinate your efforts better among yourselves, and stop creating problems where none exist. You're here to serve us, not the other way around.
My words are just that: MY words. If a mod has a problem with me or my speech, he should tell me, NOT edit my posts. I don't care if it's in your moderator handbook that you have the "right" to. Your right is wrong.
Power corrupts and I enjoy freedom. Please do me the honor of deleting my account.
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Alright, now that you have infact pointed fingers at me - I'd like to make myself clear on this one. I just went through all my posts and the ONLY word I ever said was "Damn" - and you tell me I'm fond of using profanity? Good try but it's not going to work. Is saying "AHH and saying This is annoying" wrong? Please correct me if that were the case.
Power does corrupt but if there's power to remove people that flame others or use profanity, then that power is just - hence the word "Moderator". If you go to other forums, many senior mods delete and edit posts so as to keep this forum a clean, better place.
If someone's words that belong to him were allowed in every place, including sacred places - then I wonder how this world would be. You'd find people swearing in business meetings or insulting others in sacred places. Anyways, to cut it short -
Thanks for the wiki.
Your request will be fulfilled. However, I or the other mods don't have the right to delete you as only the Site Admin has the option of deleting you.
Last but not the least, Funny you mention we are creating problems when we're trying hard to collaborate and make this forum a much better place. Never did we intend to use the royal word "we" but hey, if you want to think like that, then all the POWER to you.
P.S: If you don't care if it's in the Moderator handbook, then we won't hesitate to remove you, either.
(On a personal note, I never thought problems existed. I don't know where I or any other mod went wrong because we tried to accommodate everyone's requests and keep everyone happy, but hey they say everything takes time and I guess it will take you time as well to understand that what "WE" do is only for the forums benefit and not trying to abuse the so - called "Power".)
Good Day.

I didn't mention your posts to point fingers, but just by way of example.
Thought police often collaborate to make the world a better place. Where is this list of forbidden words? "Damn" and "hell" are ok, but a link to "justfuckinggoogleit.com" isn't? It's a real website, btw. Are certain words said in jest worse than paragraphs haranguing users saying they should die in a fire (sorry, gixxum...much respect to you). I think that was received with laughs by everyone.
When you guys got the moderator-ship, I was happy. I figured, "nice. Now a lot of duplicate posts will be cleaned up and things will be easier to find." Instead we finally had the iron curtain lowered on our very words and thoughts. Where do you draw the line?
Collaboration is a good thing. And I know you are all feeling good that you have been made moderators. The first sign that things were weird was when all three moderators came down on a newbie saying the same thing back-to-back. That was laughable, but I have to draw the line at changing my words.
I just can't see myself being a part of something like that. It's supposed to be a forum for adults to discuss their phones, not a Baptist children's summer camp.
Thank you for seeing that my request is fulfilled.

i have to say I agree with beatard
I totally agree that moderation power was abused.
The rule that was supposedly broken if I understand correctly is this:
8. Stay cool
Think of this as a on-line temple. A sacred place, dedicated to collaboration, learning and collective wisdom. Don't shout and try not to get angry. Maybe the world should adhere more to the basic filosofy of Internet protocol design: "Be strict about what you send, and liberal about what you receive". This forum has people from all countries, cultures and levels of mental maturity. This means that no matter what you're like, you'll have to adjust to people that are most definitely not like you. But on the other hand, try to be gentle with people, even in the event they're not gentle with you. It will gain you many reputation points if you help to keep the peace.
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And what was changed? The change that I saw was changing a link to "http://justfuckinggoogleit.com" to show the text "http://justfriggin(edited)googleit.com" but still link to the same site.
First of all, I think it is extremely bad form to claim to link to one site, and actually be a link to a different site. But that is beside the point.
beatard's post was quite within the rule stated above:
The standard answer for ROM searches is: you can rip them from cartridges you own yourself. While having emulators is perfectly fine, having ROMs for carts you don't own is illegal in most of the world. Sharing them on this forum would put the site in legal jeopardy as well, so you're not gonna get very much good info here.
http://justfuckinggoogleit.com is your best bet, as well as searching your favorite bittorrent site.
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A very calm, useful, and even funny answer to the ethernal question "where do I find the ROMS?" Much better than some of the recent answers to "can I have this or that recent game", and much calmer. Notice that the edit done to the post did not at all change the "Stay cool"ness factor of the post. I do not think that the function of the moderators is "to wash the mouths of posters with soap". Instead I would think that they should quietly pm posters in borderline cases and intervene in extreme cases when pm did not help.
And finally, are you aware that by editing posts the site makes itself liable because of what is said, which is not the case when posts are not edited? See, e.g. http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/blogspotting/archives/2005/08/is_it_riskier_t.html
But, I want to thank all the moderators for the work that was done in the recent weeks - the forum did get much better! But we (I) would like to keep the forum a nice and happy place, and it is very obvious that you did manage to upset beatard (and me too, after I noticed what happened).

8. Stay cool
Think of this as a on-line temple. A sacred place, dedicated to collaboration, learning and collective wisdom. Don't shout and try not to get angry. Maybe the world should adhere more to the basic filosofy of Internet protocol design: "Be strict about what you send, and liberal about what you receive". This forum has people from all countries, cultures and levels of mental maturity. This means that no matter what you're like, you'll have to adjust to people that are most definitely not like you. But on the other hand, try to be gentle with people, even in the event they're not gentle with you. It will gain you many reputation points if you help to keep the peace.
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I'm sorry... This is TOTALLY off-topic. But--"filosofy"? Seriously?

This thread is really getting out of hand. Most of this thread is about freedom of speech vs. common decency. I respect that some people cannot speak or write without using what is better known as foul language, but I feel sometimes a little bit of restraint will go a long way. It will bring more people to this forum since there ALOT of people that don't care to hear or see that kind of language. We can ultimately answer questions or give opinions about stuff without being harsh with our words. With that said.... Flar (Admin) has been notified about your request and hopefully will fulfill your request ASAP.

Sorry, I just had to reopen this thread to put in my thoughts.
I'm surprised by some of the comments people are making. Not once did I think to myself, oh let's abuse the "moderator power" that I got. If you think so, then I can't comment on that. I'm still lost as to what "I" personally did to upset any of the members on this forum.
In regards to the police collaborating to make this forum a better place, that we are doing every chance we get. You have to understand that it doesn't give us any pleasure to edit or delete posts. We are given that option only to edit/delete posts that flame others, spam or use profanity.
We are and were trying hard to clean this place up. For example: If you want to point your fingers at pudgedaddy, then please tell me - what does he get for sitting for "HOURS" cleaning up threads and deleting useless threads? Obviously, he's only trying to do what it takes for your benefit, not his own.
If I went wrong somewhere and upset a few members, I apologize but that never was my intention. I only did what was necessary and not because I enjoy editing or deleting posts.
Last but not the least, we are trying to do what it takes to make the Excalibur and other forums cleaner and better for your own use. If a Moderator says refrain from using profanity, why's it so hard to comply? That's like you in a class blatantly swearing and a teacher comes to you and is like " Refrain from using profanity" - What are you going to say? Oh, It's my mouth, I'll speak however I like.
Anyways, In regards to the link, I'm unaware as to what happened.
All in all, Thanks for being here and contributing to the community but if you ever re-consider, we'd be happy to take you back.
Good Luck & Hope you enjoyed your time here (disregarding the recent stirrups).

Leaving this forum
I agree with Beartard.
"If I went wrong somewhere and upset a few members, I apologize but that never was my intention. I only did what was necessary and not because I enjoy editing or deleting posts." a moderator
I am allergic to such behaviour. My fault. Unfortunately the thread was closed so I have to open a new one to ask for to delete my account.
I do appreciate the great efforts made by Kavana and many other contributors!

wow. this is gettin crazy.

It definitely is getting crazy. I'm surprised at the reactions of a few members. If anyone had any concerns whatsoever, why was I not notified? Noone ever complained to me or said anything to me.
I'm still confused as to where I wronged anyone at all. I wasn't active in the past 3 days and I'm unaware of any recent stirrups.
I don't know why I'm being attacked because it's understandable if I upset someone but if I did, then howcome noone ever told me? Infact, I got PM's from a few members congratulating me and saying good work is being done.
Anyways, It's upto you guys. If you want to leave, by all means do but we don't hold responsibility as we always had good intentions for everyone and this forum as a whole. On one end, you guys say good job and on the other end, you say you want to leave because we are moderating your posts. Please refer to the word "Moderator" in the dictionary. Maybe then you will understand why we do what we do.
If we were getting paid, then that's a completely different issue. We do this out of the love for this forum, not our own benefit. We are talking and trying to do as much as we can for this forum. Infact, I have made a few friends (not mods) here too who I talk on a regular basis.
Anyways, Good Luck to everybody and like I previously said in the other thread, our doors are open to you guys 24/7.
If you want to be a part of us then all you need to do is comply with rules & regulations, ask us questions, search, download .cabs like NRG Weather and finally, enjoy your time here !

why are people getting mad left and right shoot, for real come on now guys we should all be a family and try to help each other out...
oh an another thing, i think peoples posts should stay, who cares honestly if the f word is thrown here and there, it doesnt even matter we are majority all adults here and we can take that language, being in college like myself no one really cares about curse words and what not, i use them all the time.

I'm all for being a family and being happy together. I even apologized even though, I don't recall doing anything. Infact, I don't recall editing any posts for profanity.
Anyways, Guys - Cmon now, You do know that XDA's the best place to be so relax, calm down - let it go.
I'll have a talk with other mods and things will be a bit more chill if that's how you guys prefer it to be.
If I can be of any help, don't hesitate because I'd be more than happy to help and do whatever it takes for everyone to be happy around here.
XDA's my 2nd home so let's keep it like that, what say?

as you can see, yes we like it chill. how about instead of worrying about language you close some threads that noobs with 1 post start about topics that have been gone over 400000 times. and not close threads by valued members such as beartard....then reopen to get the final say...then close again so no one can post after your high and mighty final word.
DO SOMETHING WORTH WHILE. EDITING THE WORD **** IS NOT WORTH WHILE.

lukybandit said:
I'm all for being a family and being happy together. I even apologized even though, I don't recall doing anything. Infact, I don't recall editing any posts for profanity.
Anyways, Guys - Cmon now, You do know that XDA's the best place to be so relax, calm down - let it go.
I'll have a talk with other mods and things will be a bit more chill if that's how you guys prefer it to be.
If I can be of any help, don't hesitate because I'd be more than happy to help and do whatever it takes for everyone to be happy around here.
XDA's my 2nd home so let's keep it like that, what say?
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Alright 'bandit... If you'll notice--no one has blamed you man. The only time your name was mentioned was when your previous use of profanity wasn't spotlighted as others were. You guys (the Mods) have done a great job cleaning up the obsolete threads and establishing order in one of the most active forums in xda.
As I mentioned to Pudgedaddy--it kinda shocks me when someone's freedom of speech is in question. I myself detest (nor do I use) foul language, but I think it's downright eerie to know that my own words can be altered without my knowledge. Warnings, deletions, and even bans are cool with me to enforce the "no language" rule but don't change my words.

I Love This Forum, I Just Gotta Say.........
I am friends with everybody that enters these forum walls. I really like it that me and people like me have a place to go to find and discuss with others the way things could or should work on our phones and/or programs that we and others write.
I am friends with mods, no names mentioned, I am friends with folks that hate the mods, no names mentioned. I try to be everyone's friend, and the way I think I am having luck with this so far is by being honest, frank, upfront, and decent to people. I apply these standards in my life, always. That doesn't mean that if someone wants to start some crap, I won't deliver. I will, but we don't even know each other here. This is for all intensive purposes, cyberspace. I don't know what color the person I am talking to is, or race, or creed. Guess what, I don't care. I just want some answers, and am willing to give some in the process.
I wanted to be a mod to clean up the forum, but not clean up the discussions. I just wanted to organize them. I am not talking smack about how things are run here. I am not in charge, so I don't know the in's and out's of being a mod. I just hope they do what they know is the best job they can. I think when you are made a mod, that puts you in a higher regard than everyone else that frequents these forums.
I was in the AF for a bit. I know one thing, the reason the American people shouldn't worry about who is watching them, is not because of EVERY member that is defending them. It is the leaders. The leaders of our nation and all nations are there to do just that, LEAD. I know that they do a poor job what seems like constantly, but let's not kid ourselves here. Everyone that is old seems to always have the notion that the world is going to hell in a handbasket, and the young think everything is Disneyland. We as leaders are there to uphold the ideals instilled by our system of rules. Our goal is simple as leaders: " Life should go on as 'Normal',otherwise keep the peace and backoff." I think we all know this is the way it is supposed to be. It's funny that we need people to remind us this.
I just want all of the mods to know, they are appreciated. That is really all they should want, AND that is all they really deserve. This is a volunteered position. If it is becoming too stressful, take a chill pill and step down. Stay on the forum and be one of the regular guys. It's not so bad. LOL!!
To everyone that's just a regular joe on these forums, thanks for being here. We were all noobs at one point. You won't always be if you stick with it. I know I will. I hope if any of you have any probs, that you come to one of the mods and speak your mind. If you feel weird about doing it, pm me or Showaco or somebody like one of us that isn't a mod, and we'll see what we can get done.
I just want to add this:
We as people should be and are capable of governing ourselves on small squabbles and other such matters. As men, we know this rule, it is part of becoming a man, you don't run home to momma, and you don't call the cops (Unless, you totally gotta on the cops). All people should be aiming to have a society where we don't have to have any governing body, and we all "just get along". This is how Webster's dictionary defines anarchy, a total absence of government in a utopian society.
Sorry, not trying to get all preachy, but I love this place and want everything to run smoothely. Just had to say it.

It's all good, brother!
You are doing a great job. If you could do a better one in your opinion, then do a better job, otherwise keep on doing what you do. Later on brother, take it easy.
lukybandit said:
I'm all for being a family and being happy together. I even apologized even though, I don't recall doing anything. Infact, I don't recall editing any posts for profanity.
Anyways, Guys - Cmon now, You do know that XDA's the best place to be so relax, calm down - let it go.
I'll have a talk with other mods and things will be a bit more chill if that's how you guys prefer it to be.
If I can be of any help, don't hesitate because I'd be more than happy to help and do whatever it takes for everyone to be happy around here.
XDA's my 2nd home so let's keep it like that, what say?
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i agree with the freedom of speech thing. how about this, instead of changing my words, just delete the post. dont change peoples words....the ruins the point of a public bbs/forum.

do we sit in a circle now and hold hands? maybe sing a song?