Develop Bugs

about recent hostilities

Sorry this is so long but I feel strongly about this.
I too have few posts as anyone can see. I joined in Sep '06 but have been an avid reader of this forum since my company bought me a Siemens SX66 several years ago.
While I have noticed a marked decline in the quality of posts on this site, I have also seen an amazing increase in the quality of products the senior people have put out.
I think this fact coupled with the rising popularity of Windows Mobile and HTC products is inviting more and more people who would be otherwise too scared to try flashing their expensive gear to feel comfortable enough to give it a go.
Personally, I consider this a hobbyist site and as such, while the senior people will only gain experience and become more adept at their hobby, the noobs will continue to be noobs with the same noob questions, just more of them.
If this site is ever to work as an open hobbyist site, then I think it behooves everyone to step back and take a breath and think about what that goal will require.
1) Seniors - as your skills improve, and you work in this hobby more and more, you will inevitably see more and more of the same questions. Have mercy on the noobs. Truly some are lazy leechers others are perhaps "just getting their feet wet." Everyone has to start somewhere and sometimes that "start" begins with what you may think is a dumb question but is considered valid to the user asking it.
2) Noobs - think about your questions before you ask them. Realize that you are getting the benefits of senior people in this hobby and treat them accordingly. They are doing more to give you free "customer service" than the companies that you gave your money to in the first place.
3) Everyone - I see this problem as having many smaller pieces that perhaps can be improved to help create a better environment.
a) The built-in vBulletin search function sucks arse. Someone posted how to search this site using Google. Perhaps removing the built-in search would get people more familiar with a better search tool and perhaps return more relevant entries.
b) Pay to play - If you are a serious hobbyist then paying a subscription fee to gain access to the hard work others have done should be worth it. You can't or won't pay then you are on your own.
c) Private or Tiered forum for more Senior folks. Entry could be by application/invite allowing a senior moderator to evaluate the applicants quality of participation first. This would also force noobs to start contributing to the group versus just leeching.
Lastly, I have seens several posts where it is obvious that English is not their first or even learned language. I have read the wiki for my device and I have had to read parts several times to understand them. I think for many to whom the language might be a barrier to participation a little extra patience should be granted.
This is an absolutely awesome forum. I have been a benefactor of the work others have done and have several devices that are much more usable, enjoyable and longer lived because of this site. It would be a shame for this forum to crumble under the weight of the hostility that has been present the last few months.
Please, let's all find a way to keep this site useful, friendly and enjoyable for all of its participants.

Some good points but I personally don't have any problems with the search as you have got the options to search the forums, narrowing down your options, and the search this thread to really go deeper.
What I have seen on other forums is - like you say in point c - a lockdown of specific groups until you've got a certain number of posts/been around for a while/been approved so that it can be established that you're familiar with the forum and don't just post crap/leech stuff. Maybe something like that could be employed.
But let's face it, the quality of releases lately has brought far more attention to this forum rather than those who would come here because they knew what they were doing.
Just my thoughts.

If people are offended by Senior members when they ask a stupid question, then they can go somewhere else. HoFo is a great place for beginners. And since ROM flashing isn't a task fot for a beginner, there is no place here for those members.
Sure, I've asked stupid questions, been confused, etc., but I normally seek out a solution. Many n00bs (as they're commonly called) just ask without searching - and that's often obvious to those who are willing to read a 55-page thread.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the ROM kitchen. Period.

I agree with most of what you say.
I have been on this forum for more than 4 years now and it's been the best forum I have ever used to play around with my "toys".
Noobs are noobs and I even ask silly questions sometimes but I think that this site should remain the same.... It's a gold mine for every person like me wanting to play around and get the best out of his toy.
Long life to this forum

I've been on so many forums for so long and all of the ones that are any good have these very same issues. I recently read a post on a forum of another open source project that I absolutely love (Handbrake) and I think the post you can find here by one of their chief developers has some correlation to this current situation.
If you're too lazy to mosie over to the link...the gist of the post is that open source projects are just that. They are open sourced. That doesn't mean one has carte blanche to ask for help on this or that, to ask for this feature or that feature, to whine and complain, to moan and groan, or to trash somebody's work when it doesn't work like you want it to. It means that a usually small but dedicated group of individuals got together and tried to find a solution to a problem that they had. In the case of this post...it's about open source software...but I think you could say the same thing about ROM cooking here. There is enough information here that if you see or try something that doesn't work for you...try to fix it yourself (or as many have stated...search and see if it's already been fixed by someone). But in the end...I don't think you'll ever stamp out noob crap entirely. Think about it...just walk down the street or turn on your television or flip on your radio...how many idiots do you see or hear? Trust me...we are far outnumbered... But maybe...with a little help...we can at least edumacate em a little bit.

richy240 said:
If people are offended by Senior members when they ask a stupid question, then they can go somewhere else. HoFo is a great place for beginners. And since ROM flashing isn't a task fot for a beginner, there is no place here for those members.
Sure, I've asked stupid questions, been confused, etc., but I normally seek out a solution. Many n00bs (as they're commonly called) just ask without searching - and that's often obvious to those who are willing to read a 55-page thread.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the ROM kitchen. Period.
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Totally agree on that. Root of the problem seems to be low propensity to read given by large amounts of useless threads/posts, which makes it harder to search as well. By ignoring the reading/searching phase there is even more clutter being made.
The procedure how to get the info you need:
READ > SEARCH > THINK > POST
Sequence is important in that case!
Same applies to posts made entirely in language other than English > these are useless for vast majority of readers, please consider sending a PM when talking to your nationals.
'nuff said. Long live the XDA-Dev!

I think most of the gripes are about pointless posts eg, "whoohoo!", "cool", "downloading now" that just take up space and make getting to the valuable posts more difficult. Then there are the noob questions that are simple to answer but extremely annoying when repeating many many times. I am a noob to this forum and this phone but not about computers and porgramming. I have also made a donation to jasjamming and wish him the best. My proposal to end some of the madness is to seperate out the type of posts, which seem to be threefold 1. appreciation/useless banter 2. noob questions/simple questions 3. decent and high quality posts that make xda dev a great forum. So one thread about technical stuff that will contain good and useful info and another being the noob questions useless banter. Maybe split the noob questions and appreciation thread and forget about one or the other. This will make the mods life a lot easier and make reading the forum a lot more palatable and organise the threads in a meaningful way. Again sorry to see jasjamming go so soon after joining this forum. Hope he comes back at some stage.

KarhU said:
Totally agree on that. Root of the problem seems to be low propensity to read given by large amounts of useless threads/posts, which makes it harder to search as well. By ignoring the reading/searching phase there is even more clutter being made.
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Yeah. The problem is compounding itself. I think we should continue to offend the n00bs that way they go away and quit asking stupid questions.

Perhaps creating/moving this and other hardcore forums to private/access controlled area would help.
HoFo is part of the trouble but so is Google and search bots which read public forums. That brings a lot of new readers/noobs.
I've been on sites that have both public and private fora, and the Google/non approved members can't get at the private side which helps a lot.
Just so long as I'm a member of the private side.

Personally i think this forum would work better if there were more forums, say inside the hermes mobile 6 one there was one for each rom. Then if users were encouraged to post new topics for different faults the stupid pointless topics could just be ignored and end up pages back or even deleted while the usefull topics would stay near the top with only relavent content inside.
Anyway thats not for me to decide and just to note i hardly ever feel the need to post cos i've always found a fix for my problems by reading. It might take a few mins longer to find an answer than to start a post but it saves you looking stupid.

I fully support the idea of a subscription to the forums. I'm a member of another subscription-based forum, and it leads to more productive posts and queries, better quality of member base, and an intelligent quorum. That site is $9.95 for a lifetime membership, less a ban of course -- and I find that more than fair.
I don't post much either, I just soak up knowledge here. I try not to ask questions unless absolutely necessary, and instead reap the benefits from the great minds at work..

I love the forum and I think we all agree on this point. I am a moderator on several other PDA related sites. I know first hand how hard it can be to try and get the new folks to use the search function and read The Bold Print but I have found with my experience that using post counts to advance members to hidden forums only invites spam and useless posts. I can also say that wading through 80 sum pages of "thank you's" and "questions that where answered in the first post but I just looked for the link to download and didn't read" posts, is long and quite aggravating. Also trying to use the search function for things like finding a fix to an MMS problem is near to imposable. What I have seen here recently that I like is when something is released like a new WM6 build, there could be 2 treads started one for real questions (Advanced) and issues and one for the new folks to ask there new folk questions (Beginners). Not restricting access to the "Advance" tread, just the ability to post. I don't mind helping the new folks a little because I was new once. I can also say that I read information on this site for 4 days before I attempted to flash a new rom to my device. ( was scared to death ) and some of the questions the new folks asked, I also wanted the answer too. Lots of times some senior member would help them with a link or advice and this helped me also. I think if anything you should have to be a member here for say 3 or 4 days before you are allowed to post. Then maybe a week or two before you could post in the "Advanced" threads. This would hopefully send more new folks eager to find the answers to there questions, into the forums using the search and reading the comment of others a little more closely.
Just my thoughts
JD

I am new here and have refrained from posting until now. I have been using jj's WM VI 2.0 for a couple of days now (best so far) and must say that I find what is going on here to be quite annoying. My reason for being annoyed is because I have had my 8525 for several months now and have recently become quite bored with it, awaiting the release of new devices so I could have a new toy. Well jasjamming changed that with a couple rom updates.
All I am saying is for all of the noobs here including myself, "beggars cant be choosers" If the people that generously make these rom updates and advice available want us to do something in order to make this equitable for them, then we need to do as they wish without question. What is so difficult about this? Especially since it really doesn't seem like there asking much in return.
Just think about it, from what I see we all eagerly await each and every new release and now people are upset like me because we like having access to these updates and now we don't. I just think it is wasteful to disrupt such a wonderful arrangement.
Just my .02 but I really enjoy this site and would hate to see it change.
On a side note... I really enjoy this site so for all parties involved in creating/ maintaining this sight, many thanks!

Thanks button?
I will now throw my 2 cents in as well. I too have not posted much, but have managed to upgrade the ROM on my Hermes a few times without having to seek "professional help". I think we all appreciate the effrorts of the few that provide the rewards for the many. I used to be a SuperMod on a SonyEricsson modding site (before I found the Windows Mobile joy).
I have seen a "Thanks Button" used quite effectively - I think it is in the newer releases of vBulletin. It cuts a lot of the crap. Also, I would support a "no post for 10 days" and "read only, except by invitation" threads.
If you can express gratitude simply, have to read and learn for 10 days (and you KNOW they won't wait to try the flash) and get to read what the Seniors and Mods are saying and download the fruits of their labors, but cannot interfere, I think that would raise the quality of the experience for everyone. Sorry I went so long - I love XDA and want to see it continue to dominate.
PS: It is funny to see someone with the nick "poopmongrel" lamenting the low quality of the forum participants - ;-) That isn't meant to be mean, just funny!

richy240 said:
Yeah. The problem is compounding itself. I think we should continue to offend the n00bs that way they go away and quit asking stupid questions.
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Does that really work? Or do the n00bs just argue back? It seems recently they will just start arguing that "I did search, you *expletive*" or something like that.
If there were a way to rate individual posts like Digg and Slashdot, then you could set a ratings threshold (like view all rated > -1) and not even see the n00b posts that other people flagged unless you specifically click to expand the hidden post.

chenga said:
Does that really work? Or do the n00bs just argue back? It seems recently they will just start arguing that "I did search, you *expletive*" or something like that.
If there were a way to rate individual posts like Digg and Slashdot, then you could set a ratings threshold (like view all rated > -1) and not even see the n00b posts that other people flagged unless you specifically click to expand the hidden post.
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Click to collapse
I don't know... Probably not. I was really just talking out of my ass. But when someone answers like that, they obviously shouldn't expect an accurate answer. If someone said that to me after answering a question, I wouldn't give them the time of day.

Wasn't everybody a n00b at one time?
It would be a shame to 'close the forum down' to noobs. There's a first for everything. And -yes!- noobs can ask stupid questions, but you could just ignore them. I've read some good suggestions reading the threads complaining about the newbies on this forum. ("thank you button", "noob area" and "a timeslot between downloading/registering" eg.)
Without this forum I'm pretty sure my Hermes would still run on WM5 since there's no real alternative to this forum. The senior members and chefs provide information (at least I) could not find anywhere else. Like many junior members (I guess) I spend the most time reading and not posting. Reading and learning. So getting 'senior' by just posting will not improve the forum quality.
To bad some (a) chef(s) are just so fed up they don't share their work anymore, but I can understand. People should be more gratefull for their hard work. Especially if you do not have the skills to cook a rom yourself!

I think the problem is more than just asking questions, even basic ones. It is the attitude of some users who seem to expect the contributors of the ROMs to support them. As a software developer myself, I've experienced many such types who think that just because they downloaded your software for free, they are entitled to your support. I believe it is this sort of "stupidity" and arrogance that really gets the goat of those who work hard to contribute something.
In this case, the fault isn't merely one of tolerance, it is one of attitude. If a guy comes in and gets free stuff from you, and then turns back and demand you fix their machine, while bad-mouthing you - surely you can see how this will make the whole enterprise un-worthwhile for the contributor. Not only are they not getting any tangible remuneration for their work, they are now having to put up with such arrogance. Now, who in their right mind would want to continue contributing in a community that is unappreciative (though arguably there will always be those who are appreciative).
The key then is to keep the unappreciative out until they learn some respect and appreciation. When they learn that what they're getting is not a right but a privilege, out of the goodwill of the contributors. If they are not happy, they can go elsewhere and not use the product. If they're sincere, then they should make the effort to learn. Regardless of the complaints of how hard it is to use the search function (how hard can it be??). In this case the onus is NOT on the contributors but on the end-user.
I see this kind of scenario happening:-
1. Newbie hears about WM6 and thinks its so cool.
2. Pesters friend for link and ends up here.
3. Get excited at the level of activity and prospect of getting something for free.
4. Get frustrated because they don't know where to start.
5. Post basic questions about which is the best ROM etc.
6. Decides to go with the "best" ROM.
7. Bricks the machine or finds a bug or loses some features.
8. Get frustrated and angry and vents at the ROM chefs (or Olipro.
9. Tries to read site for the first time but too lazy to work through the posts (it does take time but that is expected.)
10. Pester others to help them unbrick their machine.
11. Unbricks machine and starts again with another ROM variant.
12. Cycle repeats itself.
I'm not saying that all newbies are like this. Many lurkers actually read through all the related posts. The problem we're facing has to do with those who want the benefits without having to spend the time reading and researching and learning some general knowledge about the ROM flashing process. To make things worse, these same types usually have attitudes of self-righteous indignation which makes them a pain to tolerate. This is the kind of person you want to keep out of the community. IMO.
Daniel

swtaltima said:
I am new here and have refrained from posting until now. I have been using jj's WM VI 2.0 for a couple of days now (best so far) and must say that I find what is going on here to be quite annoying. My reason for being annoyed is because I have had my 8525 for several months now and have recently become quite bored with it, awaiting the release of new devices so I could have a new toy. Well jasjamming changed that with a couple rom updates.
All I am saying is for all of the noobs here including myself, "beggars cant be choosers" If the people that generously make these rom updates and advice available want us to do something in order to make this equitable for them, then we need to do as they wish without question. What is so difficult about this? Especially since it really doesn't seem like there asking much in return.
Just think about it, from what I see we all eagerly await each and every new release and now people are upset like me because we like having access to these updates and now we don't. I just think it is wasteful to disrupt such a wonderful arrangement.
Just my .02 but I really enjoy this site and would hate to see it change.
On a side note... I really enjoy this site so for all parties involved in creating/ maintaining this sight, many thanks!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have to agree here. What ticks me off is the fact that alot of people here come in, flash a ROM without reading or researching then DEMAND a solution...not once...not twice...but sometimes three and four times in a short time span.
I have no right to DEMAND someone to fix something that either (1) I caused; (2) I didn't read enough to see that it was a known issue and flashed anyway; (3) a known issue with an open source software on a DEVELOPER's sight with I am NOT a developer.
What I see the issue to be is ingratitude, sense of entitlement and tender emotions. If you're feelings are going to get hurt then you shouldn't post. The developers here don't owe anybody here a thing. Plain and simple.
Politically correct? No. Do I care? No.
Jim

I Love Xda-developers.com!
Spread The Peace!

Suggestion for the next Black Rom Thread

[Introduction] As I bought a Tytn in December 2006 I started to visit these forums since then. Although I’m used to computers and programming since at about 1982 I had to learn a lot about flashing, security arrangements before flashing and so on. So I tried to read all the other postings and the wiki. After some weeks I flashed the first Rom, everything went well until now. Then – some weeks ago – Jasjamming was “a bit angry” about all the postings in the Black2 thread. First I couldn’t reproduce his anger but after some days of absence from the forums I noticed that’s its more or less impossible to read some hundred postings with the same topic in a thread. Now JJ again requested more discipline:
jasjamming said:
Therefore a note to Noobs: stop flooding with jargon because you will only be hurting yourself and other members of this forum. Also remember that these ROMS are provided to you by people that do them for fun, we are not your Telco Operator, we dont provide service to you if your 3G connection or access point connections have been erased when flashing. You flash at your own risk, if something goes wrong its on your head. Also remember that the amount of information you get on this forum from other member far exceed the support you will get from your Telco. Therefore dont deman anything and dont expect anything, if someone helps you be grateful.
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Click to collapse
This time he did it in a very very polite way and again he is right. I know that I did nothing special for the community besides answering some easy questions and I’m not sure if I’m entitled to make suggestions. Anyway: What about different threads for the next Rom? One as already available for “nontech matters” and “thanks for the great rom JJ” postings, one more for questions like “provider gprs/mms settings” and one for technical feedbacks to this rom to make it easier for the developers to eliminate mistakes and to improve their work.
Just my 2 cents but maybe it works to give better feedback to all the guys who are working hard in their spare time to give us all a nearly perfect working phone.
BTW: I’ve sworn to myself not to answer to statements like this
I'm not some teenage snot noob, I'm a 37 year old professional, running a company... I have better & more important things to do with my life than trawl through pages & pages of threads. .
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but I can not resist, sorry for that . In my opinion its irrelevant who somebody is and what he is doing in his private life and/or his job. If somebody is seeking for advice in a forum like this and he has not time enough to read all the other posts and the wiki/guides then apparently he found the wrong place for asking questions. I for myself wasn’t very impressed that a gentleman who is running a company is posting in this forum (but I would have been impressed if he would have had some useful hints for all). Thanks to wpbear for not answering this posting.
Conclusion: I’m very grateful to all the Romcookers for providing us improved Roms and to everybody who is giving advices, writing guides and so on. Thanks to everybody and keep it up.

Black
I bought the Hermes with great expectation and was disappointed soon with the ROM that came with it. If this site doesn't exist, I would probably had change to the Nokia N95 or something else.
I had flashed the South African ROM first and got it working. Black 2.0 was the only cooked ROM I've flashed. I had a few trouble when loaded tons of software in the beginning. I learned my lessons and hard reset with a little discipline. Black 2.0 has met my need. I run a company myself and I am thankful for those went the extra mile to help others out, something I wish more people can learn from.
I am grateful for JJ and the other chef who had made my device productive which otherwise would have been a total waste.
So, THANK YOU TO THE CHEFS.

if it wasnt for these guys i would still be using wm5 - and italy is usually the last country getting any updates...
LVSW and black are both great roms, i like switching from one to another to see their improvements
i read for hours and check this forum almost daily... i wish i had some knowledge to share but for now i can only learn from the big chefs
keep up to good job guys

@Gerals_S
I have to back you on this. Well said! I will resist the temptation to add more to your statement...

I suggested something similar in this previous thread
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=306514
however shogun mark says that the admins have no intention of changing the current system and closed the thread.. Am sure they will do likewise to this one...

You suggested sub-forums and this would change nothing. Everybody would post again in one thread and the thread would explode like the others before. I suggested to make 3 threads, for example:
.) Black3,5 - non tech comments
Here everybody can post things like "JJ u r great"
.) Black3,5 - Settings & Programs Issues
Everything about 3rd party software not running, provider settings....
.) Black3,5 - Hardcore Tech Thread
For all the real tech issues and solutions
So JJ could see very clear whether a new Rom is running without issues or not and if he's in a bad mood he could have a look to all the "you are the man" postings in a different thread.

I know the mods don't want to spend their days doing so, but deleting useless comments (I've had a few, myself), wrong thread questions, and literally the same questions asked over and over, and these threads wouldn't be nearly as long. I'm not suggesting mods spend their days doing so, but as they read the threads for their own use and they see someone with 1 post asking where the Cingy version of 3.01 is, I think it should be removed. Just the egregiously stupid questions. How about anything related to BT problems in the pimping thread past the first 3x it was asked.
Also, I read complaints by the senior members that there are too many useless posts, but there are numerous 'senior members' that immediately post:
"Thanks, JJ. Downloading now.", and JJ, wowwwww, you are a god. Will report back with issues", for the first several pages of EVERY new ROM thread that is supposed to be limited to tech issues. For someone who likes to lurk and learn more than they post, this can be infuriating, especially when further back in the thread, those same people start tossing fireballs at the silly posters.
By now, the cooks know very well that what they do is invaluable, and sending them $$ for their effort is a good way to acknowledge it. Maybe if the cooks would acknowledge receipt of donations with a PM (JJ, you listening? I know my donation for Black 2.5 a few weeks ago was only enough to buy a few drinks, but a ty PM would have been nice), people wouldn't feel the need to throw themselves at the feet of these cooks with every new release, update, or utterance.
I think 2.5 spoiled people because it had every flavor for everyone, and people could install it without even reading the wiki. While Mr. Vanx upgrade guides are so useful, they are a shortcut for putting in the time to learn. I think that's why we are seeing so many people upgrading to the latest and greatest (3.0.0, 3.0.1) who have absolutely no business doing so, and then complaining that things don't work flawlessly on beta versions we download from this board.
For the noobs reading this, I for one do not download a new ROM until it has been vetted for a few weeks by the hardcore flashers, AND I stay current with the new rom thread to make sure issues people are having will not be deal breakers for me if they occur. If you are new to this board, and not a developer, read, listen, and LEARN.
Sorry for the long message, but it's getting harder to read all the threads on here. I'm trying, but if I fall behind for a day, it can be brutal to 'catch up'.
ALSO: I just was on HOFO - I go there from time to time and I just noticed many 'senior' posters there are pointing noobs to XDA. If you do this, you are pointing people without a clue to this board, many of whom will start posting silly beginner questions.

On the note of donations, my PM inbox is more cluttered than the threads, therefore I have given up most of the time to read my inbox. But rest assured that your donations are appreciated as I keep developing the ROMS for you guys. If i didnt appreciate your donations I would have stopped releasing ROMS at Blac 2.0.
Therefore dont take offense if i dont PM you back as my time is pretty much being consumed by reading 1000+ posts in a thread trying to sort out what the issues are.
I will give you an example of my PM inbox (which has at the moment around 980 messages in there - I cleaned it last week without reading any of them) - I have hundres of posts entitled "cingular version" "tmobile version" "3g not working" "where is vjtools" "will this work on a wizard"...
Hence i gave up.
Like i said, donations are appreciated and my appreciation is shown in further releases and my free time that i sacrifice to help this community with my ROMS to help your hermes be what it is supposed to be (my mrs is making me sleep on the sofa )
Now, on the issue of bloated threads, Black 3.5 will most likely no be released here but on a forum that I moderate and membership is tight hence I and others can control noob posts with attitude. In addition, to download the ROM, you must become a member. Hopefully I will have more control over the situation. This forum I speak of has 3 strict rules and one of them is:
1. If you post stupid noob questions or responses - you will be banned immediately without warning.
As per my professional job, you sometimes have to hit people really hard so they learn their lesson, warnings just aint enough. So sit tight, Black 3.5 is currently being developed with new drivers and some other tweaks, but will most likely not be hosted here, hence xda-developers.com has the right to delete any threads started by members here as they will not be hosting my new BLACK ROM.
Cheers,
JJ
mbn said:
I know the mods don't want to spend their days doing so, but deleting useless comments (I've had a few, myself), wrong thread questions, and literally the same questions asked over and over, and these threads wouldn't be nearly as long. I'm not suggesting mods spend their days doing so, but as they read the threads for their own use and they see someone with 1 post asking where the Cingy version of 3.01 is, I think it should be removed. Just the egregiously stupid questions. How about anything related to BT problems in the pimping thread past the first 3x it was asked.
Also, I read complaints by the senior members that there are too many useless posts, but there are numerous 'senior members' that immediately post:
"Thanks, JJ. Downloading now.", and JJ, wowwwww, you are a god. Will report back with issues", for the first several pages of EVERY new ROM thread that is supposed to be limited to tech issues. For someone who likes to lurk and learn more than they post, this can be infuriating, especially when further back in the thread, those same people start tossing fireballs at the silly posters.
By now, the cooks know very well that what they do is invaluable, and sending them $$ for their effort is a good way to acknowledge it. Maybe if the cooks would acknowledge receipt of donations with a PM (JJ, you listening? I know my donation for Black 2.5 a few weeks ago was only enough to buy a few drinks, but a ty PM would have been nice), people wouldn't feel the need to throw themselves at the feet of these cooks with every new release, update, or utterance.
I think 2.5 spoiled people because it had every flavor for everyone, and people could install it without even reading the wiki. While Mr. Vanx upgrade guides are so useful, they are a shortcut for putting in the time to learn. I think that's why we are seeing so many people upgrading to the latest and greatest (3.0.0, 3.0.1) who have absolutely no business doing so, and then complaining that things don't work flawlessly on beta versions we download from this board.
For the noobs reading this, I for one do not download a new ROM until it has been vetted for a few weeks by the hardcore flashers, AND I stay current with the new rom thread to make sure issues people are having will not be deal breakers for me if they occur. If you are new to this board, and not a developer, read, listen, and LEARN.
Sorry for the long message, but it's getting harder to read all the threads on here. I'm trying, but if I fall behind for a day, it can be brutal to 'catch up'.
ALSO: I just was on HOFO - I go there from time to time and I just noticed many 'senior' posters there are pointing noobs to XDA. If you do this, you are pointing people without a clue to this board, many of whom will start posting silly beginner questions.
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Question...
What is a noob???

jj my only hope is that you will find it in your heart to let me be a part of black 3.5 if u have time and look at my posts ull see they are usefull and not noobish. i read your threads from top to bottom and know how to search. pm me if u let me. back on topic. thank you for all your roms and i look forward to the next. i been with black since 2.0 and am proud. i read and make the rom perfect. loving 3.0.1 love your roms so much that im staying at 3.0.1 and have my bluetooth off and headset sitting on the desk bc of the bluetooth problems and aint complainging bc ur current is just as fast and stable as you said.

jasjamming said:
On the note of donations, my PM inbox is more cluttered than the threads, therefore I have given up most of the time to read my inbox. But rest assured that your donations are appreciated as I keep developing the ROMS for you guys. If i didnt appreciate your donations I would have stopped releasing ROMS at Blac 2.0.
Therefore dont take offense if i dont PM you back as my time is pretty much being consumed by reading 1000+ posts in a thread trying to sort out what the issues are.
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JJ - Thanks for the response. I like your idea of a limited release and restricted access. Given the increasing hysteria each of your releases has generated, and the growing number of people that have no clue that are flashing, I think that's the right idea.
I just sent you a PM. Please read it .

My 2c..
Personally I think it helps to have "it works great" and "has problem with xyz" in the same discussion as you can get a feel for how many people find a tool/app/rom release stable/problematic.
"Thanks, will download now" seems more appropriate as a PM between people who at least vaguely know each other, or have exchanged posts regularly.

In regard to your new forum, JJ you may like to do a breakdown of individual modules. IE: a thread with your new build then sub folders under that with BT, wireless, phone, etc.
I've been using Groove (www.groove.com) before it was purchased by MS for our techs on the road with new software releases and the way one can setup workspaces has really saved time. We create a software workspace, then sub folders under that workspace for every module and the filtering system works well IF and only IF people put something relevant in the title.
The techs on the Groove space are severerly reprimanded if they reply to posts with useless or trivial info. My research (physically counting in most cases) has shown that more threads are bloated by people throwing retorts back at less than satisfactory posters, hence they are treated more harshly.
There has not been one of our tech or development team who has not at some stage posted a complete dickheaded post.
We have found that if the OP doesn't get a reply to their less than adequate post they tend to realize why after a short time and start to read our wiki a little more thoroughly.
I've read all of that 96 odd pages of the build 3.xx Black to see if it would fit with my way of doing things on the Hermes. It looks like I won't be seeing another cut of it, though.
JJ, you have a hell of a lot more patience than me, mate. I would have simply pulled the ROM quicker than a bargirl can grab you a beer in Phuket.
Sure everyone like to receive kudos, but reading that arselicking first couple of pages of the Black 3.xx thread was like listening to my 13 year old neice talking with her friends...
How about some of you "senior" members start pulling your heads in and acting like senior members. Just ignore the stupid bloody posts. You don't have to a freaking rocket scientist to realize that every post you reply to is bloating the thread more.
Now I feel like a ****ing goose cos I've just bloated this one.
cheers,

Keeping it simple.
JJ and all the other cooks out there,
1st off, thank you for all your hard work. So far I have enjoyed playing with 5 different ROMs due to your generosity. Black 3.0 rocks and I like that I can add the apps that I want without all the extras.
As a noob myself, I always thought that there were no stupid questions... until I started reading the forums. I am amazed at how bloated the forums are with "Downloading now..." and "You rock". I wonder if there are any moderators even reading anymore. Can a moderator zap a poster with an automatic 1 week no posting “time-out”? If so, I might volunteer to mod ;->
So here is my $0.03 (inflation is hell) worth of suggestion on top of the ones being tossed in the mix. In your initial posting to announce your next great act of kindness and generosity, just include a link to the technical issues forum post for Black 3.5... You don’t really have to hide it… Just don’t make it too obvious.
All the goobers will spin their wheels going "Wow..." and "Thanks, downloading now..." in the first forum which will attract the dumb noobs who ask or demand for the easy answers. Those that read will know where to go for real issues and input. Kind of like a “too friken lazy to read when I can just type” filter.
Just a thought and since this forum is for “Suggestion for the next Black Rom Thread” I figure it’s safe to post this one…
Thanks again for all your work, I am amazed at what you accomplish.

gfunkmelody said:
What is a noob???
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A new WM6 ROM thats better than Bill Gates' own. Cooked just for you.

gfunkmelody said:
What is a noob???
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Anyone else see any irony here? I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
JJ, props on the tightly restricted forum idea - just please leave it open for people to read. Some people actually do read.

I fully understand why JJ is doing what he is with the next release i just think it a shame that the community has to fragment to survive . It will make the dissemination of knowledge that more difficult and on a personal level make life a tad more complicated having to check multiple sites rather that just multiple forums in one site.
But keep up the good work all i for one am so happy your all here my friend bought an HP 6815 and hes stuck on wm5.
Laters
Matt

Let people use your hard work
Hi JJ,
I'm using black from first version on tytn, i tried a lot of others rom before, but only black can give me more satisfaction and i feel more stable.I'm not using post any question, just because everything working well, or because i already find the answer on the forum.Anyway you must know that a lot of people maybe use your roms but as no time to test a lot so as no reason to give you a lot of feedback.i just think that people demonstrate your hard work is very appreciated.
Anyway, maybe you cook these roms for yourself but i think any person who use it give you more satisfaction. Of course a work regarding so many persons will produde massive reactions and a lot of posts, but without some of them your roms not so good.
So let people at least download.
Your work help the community.
Any work as a boring part, in your case a lot of posts.

Umm... Why is everyone here an A Hole?

It's like a cancer. One person is rude and cruel so it rubs off until it's so unhealthy everyone lashes out at everyone. I could care less how many "noobs" ask questions. Answer it if you like or else ignore it. You people need some serious help!
Waiting to get banned and flamed!?!

because all these stupid n00bs came from hofo thinking that this was a download WM6 only place and not a R&D type forum... the whole point of xda DEVELOPERS is to program code and other wise develope things for our PDA not to come here and ask "how come my symbols are all messed up after i flashed this rom" or how "come my hermes has a tri-colored screen and thats it" So we get to the point of hating every stupid question that it asked because its asked 100000000000000000000000000000000000000 times over and over since no one can use google or the search button/....

Somebody please delete this thread. It is useless and annoying.

its really not a worthless topic...but perhaps it is here.
bottom line is there really is NO excuse ever to be an a-hole.
I could give you 5 sure fire ways to deal with the 'problem' straight-up.....
from the moderators standpoint...and inner-forum standpoint besides the childish ways it was dealt with by chefs and associates....
although its gotten better.

Check this forum in a bit
and I'll show you how to instill forum control.
and ''a-holes'' (authors quote!)....don't say, 'duh...we shouldn't have to do that'
if someone feels so strongly to call new members 's '****in noob...search the f......' thread''...then you have the strength to implement these measures.
it'l be up in an hour or so..got to get home

austinsnyc said:
because all these stupid n00bs came from hofo thinking that this was a download WM6 only place and not a R&D type forum... the whole point of xda DEVELOPERS is to program code and other wise develope things for our PDA not to come here and ask "how come my symbols are all messed up after i flashed this rom" or how "come my hermes has a tri-colored screen and thats it" So we get to the point of hating every stupid question that it asked because its asked 100000000000000000000000000000000000000 times over and over since no one can use google or the search button/....
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That pretty much says it all.....

A-hole???
If you're referring to austinsync or myself as being assholes, shame on you!
Speaking for myself, since 2005, I've had 856 posts, the majority of them helpful. (actually have a sticky, thank you very much)
I'm not known to curse a person but I will attempt to lead them to their destination.
People here have taught me how to fish and I try to share that knowledge.
If you insist on us giving you the fish because you're too lazy so be it... but don't call me an asshole.

Dr Puttingham said:
If you're referring to austinsync or myself as being assholes, shame on you!
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Ya....I never said any specific names, in fact I'm not sure where you got that idea, unless you are just feeling guilty. My remark was just a general feel for what seems like the whole Hermes forum.

me?
i'm quoting the word from the title post....don't know who he's referring to.

Dr Puttingham said:
If you're referring to austinsync or myself as being assholes, shame on you!
Speaking for myself, since 2005, I've had 856 posts, the majority of them helpful. (actually have a sticky, thank you very much)
I'm not known to curse a person but I will attempt to lead them to their destination.
People here have taught me how to fish and I try to share that knowledge.
If you insist on us giving you the fish because you're too lazy so be it... but don't call me an asshole.
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there are alot of members here that treat noobs unfairly sometimes, this site is a little hard to navigate and some people like myself get a new device and are like ok what can i do to it right this second, dont take the time mess it up and so on and so forth. imo some people think a little to highly of themselves and think they have the right to say what should be posted. now there are alot of great people here but there are some that are not so great. this is a developers site not a noob site and i think the best way to prevent this is to redirect noobs to other forums like http://www.htcwizardweb.net/node/103
but they are more device specific so dr puttingham or other great members of this site dont sweet it if someone states that there are some aholes on this site because its not toward yourselves. but i dont think this is the place to post this and dont think someone with a post score of less than 50 should address an issue of this nature. i have been a member for awhile and dont post alot as of yet because i am still a noob and i think to many people start threads that shouldnt be started. if you have a question read the wiki and navigate the threads using google dont start new threads unless your absolutly positive it hasnt been answered. read read read hours and hours read the wiki dont start new threads with noob questions this is not a noob site this is not a download site this is a developer site and we should be greatfull that they dont descriminate new comers. well thats my 2 cents

I think the issue is many people are used to getting things their way right away and don't want to take the time to do some searches and read a few threads before asking stupid ass questions.
I'm a newbie and sometimes I think people here act like they have their ass hairs plucked every morning before they get up. Other times I see people asking questions that are pretty stupid and easily answered. So it goes both ways.
Some here are overly anti-noob and some noobs are overly stupid.

No different
Honestly, this forum or the behavior you are talking about is nothing new or different than many of the other forums I have been part of. When the community supports itself there is a tendancy to appreciate those who help themselves and contribute to the betterment of the comunity overall. Those that detract from the community either by their actions or attitudes are unappreciated. How people show this appreciation or lack of is a matter of personal style. If some people are harsher than others it is just the way it is. If you plan on getting free support for a free product that you can't otherwise produce for yourself there is a certain expectation of self reliance. If you are offended by someone telling you to go read the F*ing wiki you need to probably grow an extra layer of skin or two.
If people who don't have the answers demonstrated and communicated what steps they have taken to find the answer on their own and actually used the google or advanced search features people would probably respond differently.
One big help on the advanced search page is to change the search from threads to posts. It really helps narrow down the exact area in the threads your search terms are and you can go back a few posts rather than try to wade your way through 55+ pages of posts.
I am a self professed "noob". But that said I have, without asking a single question on the forums, flashed several blacks, several custel, and vp3Gs LVSW ROMs, upgraded my radio, downgraded to unlock, upgraded to 1.41 and just this evening dropped it back down to 1.40 (which actually did wonders for my phone).
It is a little difficult to find all the information you need. It isn't spoon fed. But it isn't all that hard either. Between the guides my MrVanx, the wiki and the various search tools provided you should be able to peice together anything.
If everyone follows this methodology the problem would probably take care of itself with minimal effort from the moderators and you would see a lot more decorum in the forums. Until then all threads like this do are spark useless debate that has nothing to do with the hermes and clog up an already bloated forum.
Just my 2 cents. I appreciate all of the members of this community - even the A Holes.
thank you for listening.
Caturix

Did I mention I like beer?

A few day back there was a A - Hole noob here who wanted wm6 for Sony Ericsson M600. It was his first post !!!
You have to behave like an A Hole with A Hole types.

TooSharp said:
It's like a cancer. One person is rude and cruel so it rubs off until it's so unhealthy everyone lashes out at everyone. I could care less how many "noobs" ask questions. Answer it if you like or else ignore it. You people need some serious help!
Waiting to get banned and flamed!?!
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Everyone here is not an a-hole as you so liberally claim.
Why complicate simple matters? You signed up voluntarily and you can leave anytime if you don't like it here.
Don't go around calling "everyone" an a-hole just because you feel like it. Geez.

caturix said:
It is a little difficult to find all the information you need. It isn't spoon fed. But it isn't all that hard either. Between the guides my MrVanx, the wiki and the various search tools provided you should be able to peice together anything.
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SPOT ON analysis. This is precisely what a developer does... piece things together... work away at it... figure it out. And that's why they tend to get hot under the collar when others expect to be spoon fed. This this may come across a being an 'a-hole' to some when in fact they're just demanding a little appreciation for what they do.
If everyone follows this methodology the problem would probably take care of itself with minimal effort from the moderators and you would see a lot more decorum in the forums. Until then all threads like this do are spark useless debate that has nothing to do with the hermes and clog up an already bloated forum.
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Again, excellent.

TooSharp said:
It's like a cancer. One person is rude and cruel so it rubs off until it's so unhealthy everyone lashes out at everyone. I could care less how many "noobs" ask questions. Answer it if you like or else ignore it. You people need some serious help!
Waiting to get banned and flamed!?!
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well let me step up to the plate and be the A-hole here..
First if you bothered to search you will find that this topic has been talked about many times.. There is even a decent topic under the "About XDA-Developers" sub-fora... This doesnt exactly belong in a WM6 forum.. Posting this only adds to the problem.. instead of complaining about the problem, you need to ask yourself "what have i done to improve the situation?"
Alot of people blame poor moderation, but come on people, most of us are grown up's.. Do you really need babysitters? Why not take a proactive approach to help the situation instead of complaining and make it worse.
So, lets all play nice and make this a happier place..

It's Just Not Fun Anymore!!!

Ok, there is something that I want to say.
I know I'm not making myself popular with this post, but I wasn't very happy lately with the comments or the reaction from some fellow Xda-Dev members lately...
This should be a community, where we learn and help each other.
Where we can share knowledge and cool roms (like Toms...) or apps (like Tene's...) etc...
But lately I feel like there are less real Xda-Dev members which appreciate the work and effort, those wizards out there make for us.
Only peoply always complaining about "the need of BETTER beta-testers", is it because these people couldn't test it before a release and are jalous??? Or people complaining about some bugs, and keep asking 100000... times about why there is this bug, how to fix it, or why don't you fix it?? etc... well, let me tell you a BUGFREE rom most likely wouldn't excist... and if you can do it better, why don't you put your TIME and EFFORT in it and make a fix for it... or better make a Rom and share it with us... let's see if you can make a bugfree cool rom??!!
Or people asking 100000... times when will there be a German version of this rom or a Dutch rom or etc... Or why put these apps in a specific rom? etc...
I'm just wondering, do all these people always send 100000... mails to HTC or Microsoft to ask them, why a specific app is in a rom? Why there are these bugs, why this, why that???
I'm just saying why don't we all just show some respect and appreciation to those wizards. To those whom sacrafise a lot of time and work into a project and share it to us for free. Off course I understand, the feedback we all give to these wizards will maybe help them to create a better version or help them make a fix for a bug. But there is some difference between giving feedback and just being a child and complaining ...
I opened this thread, because I feel sorry for Tom (and other wizards)... if you see the post on threads from his roms... more than half is just crap... is just people asking the same thing over and over again... I'm not sure about Tom, but I know I would get it on my nerves when I made something for a community and this would be the reaction... I would ask myself, if it's still worth it to invest so much time into something for all those people...
I used to looking forward to be able to logon on XDA Dev... but lately, I notice that even I got the time for it, I just don't feel like to logon... cause most likely I will missed a page or 2 or 3... but I'm sure I wouldn't miss any potential information...
This post is dedicated to all those Wizards out there... and I'm sorry... I'm sorry there are a lot off people just don't know how to show some respect to you... I hope I still can learn from you, and to use the cool apps and roms from you...
But I must admit, even I'm doubting, will I still comming back to this forum... or should I just leave it???
Just my 2 cents...

100 % agree with you....
Cheers!

you are talking right out of my heart.
i personally tend to ignore all those "but it has a bug!!11!!1" or "i donated few euros now i WANT that feature and i want it NOW" folks. but you are right: it starts to kill the core of the community.

lets all be unpopular together......
...I agree with everything you say cg...pointing out a problem and making the dev aware is one thing - complaining is another completely.
The amount of posts on this website pushing Tom Codon to release his 4.1 rom was stupid...when its ready its ready. If you don't want to wait - install a factory rom and stop whining.
I also have no problem (we've all done it) in asking a question because you can't find an answer...the main point being "if you can't find an answer" - a lot of people tend not to search and fill the forums with duplicate posts.
So...in conclusion....i may not be a regular poster, but I really enjoy reading almost every post on this site - but when you we are in a position when a poster such as coolgadget is thinking of leaving - we need to pay attention...
imagine what would happen in Tom decided to leave - or any of the other cookers - maybe thats what some of the people on here need before they realise what these guys do.
Rant over

I think your post will make you very popular and make you many friend.

I am on your side - only someone with your reputation is able to say that!!
Thank you my friend.
We all have to organize and discipline us in order to get a forum with easy readable informations which helps the community.
Not only consuming and defining requirements is here the right way!!!
Nobody does this in relation to HTC or Microsoft - and Tom and all the other devs work very hard (somtetimes day and night) - they should have the change to concentrate on cooking good roms - not discussing the same problems again and again.

Bottlm Line!
That my Friend is the bottom Line.
I always come on here with intentions of helping out anyone I can. I have been testing with Cool Gadget for a while; he and I have the same feelings here. I am literally drained when it comes to trying to read through the release posts.
I lose my confidence in this community when I read some of the statements, complaints and out right rude comments left by some users.
I appreciate every ones interest, and inpatients for the next release, I don’t condone it at all, but I do get it. You can be anyone you want to be on the internet, some choose to be who they really are, while some cant help but to be that person...
In short, Cool has this right on, I would repost it and change the name just to be the first to say it.
Please people, show a little respect and integrity, it really goes a long way

Thanks Coolgadget for posting this.
Even the original rom of HTC has bug's
Can we make this post sticky?
Ps. it's my 100 post

RE: Coolgadget
True, but might some people say this and that cus they would like to help work of the creator, and not cus they want to blame his work. Have you ever thought about that? And maybe these forums are for not only but for this reason as well, to let the developers help each other, let the users help each other, let the developers help the users and MAYBE vica verse.
Maybe I am wrong.
Regards,
Miklos

biou said:
I think your post will make you very popular and make you many friend.
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i also agree, it's not really fine to search in a thread with about 100pages and the most asked question is really "when do you make german rom", "and found this bug", etc it's really true. It's not comfortable to find real interestening threads. And such statements are totally useless for everybody. I like your point of view!

moderators can edit complains & ****ty comment away.
i was a moderator for a long time on a board, we made some rules.
There rules where simple, follow them or get a warning, still not listening, they got banned.
the normal respected members will always follow the rules.
the ones that are *****ing, making lame & dumb comments will eventually make place for the people that DO want to contribute in a healthy way
look at some of the new members their lame posts....
they are just joining to complain, say this is bad, this isn't good... bladiebladiebla...not good for the health of a community imo
serious, they need to give all the guys that are working on things like this in their spare time some credit.
Complaining & whining..... for stuff that is free....what a bunch of assholes

Good post man
I agree, but I guess its not easy for all newcomers (me included) to fully understand how much work is beeing put into cooking roms, hacking progz to make them better, and so on.
Havent we all been a nOOb? lol, im still one, but I feel like im climbing upwards to a higher plain of existence ( ) the more I read on this forums.
I didnt fully understand (do I yet?) before starting to cook for myself, even though I am provided by tools like the HyperCore kitchen by anichillus, I can see that its still damn much to learn, and that it takes alot of time. Cant even imagine how much hours the pros in here has used, and for free. Amazing..
Maybe we should start a "Guide how to..." section on frontpage, making a part called TouchFlo, one called dialer, one called commManager and so on.
Posting sollutions found in.ex on how to install the touch dialer on a fresh official rom and so on.
And why not let that be readable for everyone, but posting restricted to senior members?
There it could be posted answers for all the common questions ppl would have.
If that could be done, im sure the sections would be easier to scroll through, not having to read 100000 posts asking whythisandwhythathowtopleasethx.....
I dont think the forums will ever get rid of the newcomers asking alot of questions, over and over again. Like me Sending PMs to the wizards, asking questions (that im stupid enough to belive that 1000 others have not asked them about before) about how to....and so on
cheers masters
And Coolgadget, dont leave, we need you here.

itje said:
Good post man
I agree, but I guess its not easy for all newcomers (me included) to fully understand how much work is beeing put into cooking roms, hacking progz to make them better, and so on.
Havent we all been a nOOb? lol, im still one, but I feel like im climbing upwards to a higher plain of existence ( ) the more I read on this forums.
I didnt fully understand (do I yet?) before starting to cook for myself, even though I am provided by tools like the HyperCore kitchen by anichillus, I can see that its still damn much to learn, and that it takes alot of time. Cant even imagine how much hours the pros in here has used, and for free. Amazing..
Maybe we should start a "Guide how to..." section on frontpage, making a part called TouchFlo, one called dialer, one called commManager and so on.
Posting sollutions found in.ex on how to install the touch dialer on a fresh official rom and so on.
And why not let that be readable for everyone, but posting restricted to senior members?
There it could be posted answers for all the common questions ppl would have.
If that could be done, im sure the sections would be easier to scroll through, not having to read 100000 posts asking whythisandwhythathowtopleasethx.....
I dont think the forums will ever get rid of the newcomers asking alot of questions, over and over again. Like me Sending PMs to the wizards, asking questions (that im stupid enough to belive that 1000 others have not asked them about before) about how to....and so on
cheers masters
And Coolgadget, dont leave, we need you here.
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Click to collapse
Yes i can follow you but there is a difference between the guys trying to initiate active (proactive) communication and that one which are only consuming!

coolgadget and chandlercjh
I'm in total agreement with you both in all your comments above. If people would only show some patience here especially with Tom and the work he is doing at this great forum... its would be a very sad day if he or any of the other senior members decided to leave. I don't make many posts on here but I am a regular reader and absolutely love the site. I just hope that more people show respect and an ability to use the search function... and i dread the nonsense we will have to read when we near v4.2 of Tom's great ROM.

Agreed fully
Hello Friend;
I completely agree with you.Its not fair that people who make ROM's and other apps are always crucified or pressured.Many time the same questiona are answered previously.But no one wants to read it,it seems.But another thing to be high lighted is that many people can't speak English well.This some time lead to messages which seems arrogant.But I have to agree the message u posted(I saw it before in forum) is the result of a gigantic ego and big mouth.He doesn't even pay anything for the ROM(forgetting a few bucks of Donations) and daring to complain like this.As u say such people can make their own ROM's and make it perfect and don't stop complaining.
And please remember that there are much more people here who are your fans and looks up to you.So please don't be bothered and continue your good work.
Regards and have a nice day.

My alplogies for my following comment as I am quite new here in the forum as well.
I completely agree with these statements here. It looks very childish (to put it in polite words) what many of the members write in their posts when they cry for tthe ROM in another language (you didn't learn english in school??).
Tom is doing a great job and he is ALWAYS polite. Try to behave in the same way!!!
For the beta-tester critics, I just like to mention that the SW from very big companies is also far away from being bug-less.
To mention I sent 10 bucks please provide me with this or that is ***
Come on, go in a restaurant and buy a coffe. What do you get for this money.
My impression is, Tom is doing this because he likes to do it, to share it and to contribute to a comunity. I call this respect. So, show him your respect as well.
Donate to show your respect to him and not because you want something.
my 2 cents in R-E-S-P-E-C-T,
g-fall

Try to imagine XDA WITHOUT Tom
Hi there,
What my dear personal friend Coolgadget apparently forgot to mention is that in a recent conversation we had with Tom -after having read some REALLY NASTY & RUDE posts- we urged him to leave and start using his valuable time to do better things rather than "attempting" to please the varied XDA crowd.
We also tried to persuade him to charge a minimum fee for each download.
In a recent post (some of you might even remember that) I have publicly suggested Tom to go to the beach instead of "wasting" his time following useless remarks of some outstandingly tactless XDA forum members.
All this TO NO AVAIL... Tom is a big-hearted and professional young man who LOVES EVERYBODY, kind and mean alike, generous and stingy alike!
Tom insisted and decided to continue HELPING EVERYONE 4 FREE... Isn't that magnificent?!?
Coolgadget (just like myself) gained among certain "noble" XDA groups a fair degree of unpopularity because of his straightforward writing style, because his posts are always right to the point and MOSTLY because he knows what kind of pain Tom has to "digest" when some people POST FASTER THAN THEY CAN THINK.
Please remember that this forum will never be the same if people like Tom or Coolgadget will decide to leave!!!
In the "Donations to Tom Codon" thread (http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=1471616&posted=1#post1471616) I have just posted how important nice and encouraging words are to Tom... I would almost dare to define them just as valuable as generous financial donations.
I thank you all once more for the understanding and support shown so far (and OBVIOULSY for the one you will keep on showing ) and I wish you a great day.
SiperX

I completely agree with the comments made in this post and I apologise for not having any input myself. Tom does indeed make some great roms that make the XDA Orbit/P3300, or whatever you want to call it, a far more useable piece of technology. I am surprised that the likes of O2, T-Mobile or HTC haven't jumped at the chance to showcase how enthusiasts are developing and pushing the boundaries with their technology.
I do think that one of the problems is language and that some people, whose first language is not English, may come across as quite rude when they perhaps don't mean to. This does not excuse peoples inability to use the search function or the ones that are blatantly rude and I would suggest that the mods here clamp down and ruthlessly delete both the rude posts and those that ask the same questions time and time again. Perhaps a sticky in the most common languages on how to use the search function might go some way to highlighting the problem and how it is ruining the forum.
I am not saying that there are not faults with the roms and that Tom does not require feedback; all I am saying is that those that can not offer useful input, who are rude or constantly demand things are not actively allowed to ruin threads.
My life with the Orbit would be far less interesting without Tom's work.
Many thanks and I will donating come payday.

What my dear personal friend Coolgadget apparently forgot to mention is that in a recent conversation we had with Tom -after having read some REALLY NASTY & RUDE posts- we urged him to leave and start using his valuable time to do better things rather than "attempting" to please the varied XDA crowd.We also tried to persuade him to charge a minimum fee for each download.
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hi SiperX and Coolgadget I can only request you to ignore those NASTY & RUDE comments as there are always some ants in heaven.Either we can put negative points for such whiners after a level they will be banned or just ignore it.I kindly request you not to be affected by these remarks by some IDIOTS who think they can have their way.
Coolgadget (just like myself) gained among certain "noble" XDA groups a fair degree of unpopularity because of his straightforward writing style, because his posts are always right to the point and MOSTLY because he knows what kind of pain Tom has to "digest" when some people POST FASTER THAN THEY CAN THINK.
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For this I consider you and others who male this forum a big contribution.But please remember there are many who admire you too.I admire Tom and his works.Not just him the forum itself and many volunteers who make apps in their free time and distribute it freely.
Please remember that this forum will never be the same if people like Tom or Coolgadget will decide to leave!!!
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I hope that day never comes.Is there anything we can do to help you?

FYI
this matter seems resolved

Rude senior members!!

I have frequented this site over the past few weeks or so and am outright disturbed by the disrespect some "NEW" members are getting. I haven't actually encountered this personally, but as I have read numerous post, I see things that make me want to turn around and split! Senior members calling names and being VERY rude to existing and newer members. Is this really tolerated here? I really hope not because I like the site for the most part. I just refuse to be part of a forum that lets rudeness and disrespect go unattended.
I don't mean to be a bother, but the forum I moderate at would NEVER let this happen. We BAN members for disrespecting one another. I thought that's what I would encounter here as well.
I am not really looking for a response here, just wanted to let someone who cares know what I experienced over the past few weeks here as a new member. Thank you to whomever takes the time and interest to read this.
-Tommy
NOTE TO ALL: DO NOT POST REPLIES TO THIS THREAD! IT HAS BEEN DISCUSSED ALREADY. THANKS -Tommy

Thank you for the quick reply. I'm glad to see you guys are aware of this and working to cut down on the rudeness. I myself have told "newer" members to search instead of posting new threads that look like new mods as well. I do like the site though, and will continue to frequent it. I am SOLD on htc's, as I have recently chased a TD2 and love it. I will also be able to contribute new mods as soon as I can get used to the platform.
Thanks again,
-Tommy

tomtommy306 said:
Senior members calling names and being VERY rude to existing and newer members.
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Tommy, I'm someone who felt, 2 years ago, exactly what you describe here. It was always justified as senior members getting tired of volunteering their time to help people -- only to have some new members bypass reading any "sticky threads" or any admonitions to "please read before posting a new thread" (in which tips are provided for how to get answers to frequently asked questions) -- and seemingly never bothering to search at all.
Over the past 2 years I have observed 2 things, trend-wise: (1) Once I gained some decent baseline proficiency in understanding how the basics work re upgrading my phone with new & improved software, I then started to see, as though appearing for the first time (but they were always present) the TONS of repeated questions and downright disrespect some new members had for even following the most basic of protocols -- like -- "please post that at the forum dedicated to your phone model; you can find it here..." generating responses like
"I don't have time for that. I just need to know what HardSPL means and where I can find the latest ROM for my T-Mobile Wing"
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Personally I attribute a HUGE amount of this to the less-than-optimal information design of this site, which sends people back and forth from here to there to a wiki, then searching for acronyms and definitions, then to a sticky thread (MANY OF WHICH ARE NOW OUTDATED AND HAVE BEEN FOR OVER A YEAR), then back to a hacking section, being shouted at that "this isn't for asking questions, moron; this is for contributing software hacks", and eventually generating some dog-chasing-tail experiences for new members. One of the people working his damned hardest to help minimize this is nir36 (SHOUTOUT!) with his excellent GUIDES, and with his patience within the "Questions and Answers" section.
But -- (2) Here's what I have also seen: A huge disruption of culture here at XDA, prompted, I believe, by the mainstreaming of touchscreen phones with the introduction of Apple's iPhone. Two- to three- to four years ago, the people who frequented this site were predominantly hackers who banded together to solve many of the deficiencies of WindowsMobile software, and who shared their expertise knowing that other people's expertise would benefit them and solve annoying problems, or push a certain envelope. There was, as a result, a culture of CONTRIBUTION, vs one of "gimme gimme gimme, I don't have time, just gimme".
I've seen many an essay posted here by veteran members of XDA expressing a real frustration for some of the behaviors caused by the new influx of people seeing tricks and hacks now posted on YouTube, and then discovering XDA, and coming here to "find that and get it onto my device".
This has created a culture clash which is totally understandable from both sides of of the issue. There's more and more abuse of basic rules & process, where, as I said, more people seek to bypass all that rigamaroll and just post wherever it seems to fit, and seek a specific answer about how to get XXX on my device. There are MANY MANY senior members, even veteran senior members who've been here 4-5 years, who still use a soft touch in asking people to "read this FAQ please" or "please post that in THIS forum". But at the same time, when the response to gentle nudges like that is along the lines of "I don't have time for that, I'm in a hurry, and I just need to get this installed", then patience grows thin.
And so yes, of course, you'll see people snapping at one another. But it's born of frustration for the lack of respect of the culture of XDA -- where it had always been part of the quest to have new people work a little at finding answers, not to punish them, but rather to help them connect the dots and see the solutions available to them, and how they often build atop prior work.
Anyway these are my thoughts. I speak only as a member, not as any representative of the site or group of Mods.

I have been looking around quite a bit lately(here @ XDA), and have better feelings about it. There are a lot more helpful and kind people here, then there are rude ones. I guess I was running into a lot of newer members that were being disrespectful to the seniors. I understand the frustrations of members not being appreciative as I see it often where I mod. It does get frustrating when people don't say "please" and "thank you" , but some people must have forgotten what their families have taught them. MANNERS...
I will continue to be around the site.
You ALL do great work here, and I appreciate the time and effort involved.
I rarely ask for help, but I wanted to know it was welcome, just in case.
We are all here for the same thing, and I am very glad to have found XDA to fuel my need.
The site has a great REP, and that means a lot to me.
It was also the reason for concern in the first place.
Thanks again guys,
-Tommy
Note to MODS or ADMINS: PLEASE CLOSE or DELETE THIS THREAD. I am very happy with the responses I have been given, and am happy to be here. The topic will not be brought up again unless ABSOLUTELY necessary.

At least it's not Howard Forums
Seriously, if you see anything that looks bad, PM a moderator or report the post. We do try to respond.
V

vijay555 said:
At least it's not Howard Forums
Seriously, if you see anything that looks bad, PM a moderator or report the post. We do try to respond.
V
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You got that right.... Howard forums are very out there.
That's where I discovered modding cell phones for the first time.
If any complaints were ever to arise(doubtful), I would communicate via PM only.
Thanks vijay.

Sounds like somebody called you a noob and you got all flustered and decided to make a thread about it. Hope things get better for you.

Drybonz said:
Sounds like somebody called you a noob and you got all flustered and decided to make a thread about it. Hope things get better for you.
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Actually..... I hadn't even started to post in the forum when I wrote this.
It was from responses like YOURS here, except to other members that made me start this thread. And I had no intention of keeping it going. It was for admins and mods to read.
I'm no noob at any of this. I work as a computer technician for the city I live in. And I moderate at MMUS.us for quite a while now. Tkali & Insecure Spike can vouch for all of this. They mod there too... and have worked with me since I have been there.
AND LASTLY...... WHY DID YOU RESPOND TO A POST DOING EXACTLY WHAT I OPENLY STATED TO DISLIKING?? Disrespectful at the least.

tomtommy306 said:
Actually..... I hadn't even started to post in the forum when I wrote this.
It was from responses like YOURS here, except to other members that made me start this thread. And I had no intention of keeping it going. It was for admins and mods to read.
I'm no noob at any of this. I work as a computer technician for the city I live in. And I moderate at MMUS.us for quite a while now. Tkali & Insecure Spike can vouch for all of this. They mod there too... and have worked with me since I have been there.
AND LASTLY...... WHY DID YOU RESPOND TO A POST DOING EXACTLY WHAT I OPENLY STATED TO DISLIKING?? Disrespectful at the least.
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Well an assumption is an assumption. There is nothing you can do about it if a skeptic has little information to analyze.
To explain the frustrations of the "meanies" here are two situations I come up with:
Situation 1
The problem is that XDA is very likely to be the most visited forum as a technical support forum but stupid idiots are just too stupid to fix their problem when the answer is right there.
Example
For example, I have seen plenty on the Xperia forums in which some dude asks for panels when it is available as a sticky called "panels library" and the links worked at the moment, and yet the he requests for an existing panel.
Situation 2
Someone asks for a Windows Live Messenger download, and he/she says that he "looked everywhere, up and down" ... I tell him that it's easy to find and he isn't really looking ... he defense himself saying that he really did look ... we say o rly?
Example
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=517909
By the way, I declare this a skeleton war, since both of you are likely to argue and you both have skull faces

I would say, empathise, its not about senior members but about those people who stay a lot on this forum & loves this place too much that they get annoyed when they find someone littering around or violating the rules.
But being a senior member or more so a lover of XDA I would not allow myself to offend anyone's feelings or his/her dignity.
Enjoy & report mods in case you feel something is too offending & the suggestion is going out of context. Cheers
Saksham Katyal

I am a 28 year old male with not much to worry about.
Arguing on a Smart_phone/PPC forum is a little too juvenile for myself.
I was merely reading some threads, saw some rudeness.... read some more.... saw some more.
Then asked if the admins were aware.
I didn't expect it to cause such a stir. WOW!
Most people here have seemed rather decent since I posted this, and I expected nothing from XDA, but a place to learn new things.
I'm not really that concerned about it, just wanted to let the admins know my initial experience.
I was never directly disrespected.... The fact is, I haven't asked for help here at all.
I actually answered a few questions and really nothing more.
So, is there really a need to continue this discussion??
Not for me.... but you guys feel free to continue.
But if a skeleton war is in order...... I have some tattooed on me and am infatuated with them, so I WIN...hahaha

sakshamkatyal said:
I would say, empathise, its not about senior members but about those people who stay a lot on this forum & loves this place too much that they get annoyed when they find someone littering around or violating the rules.
But being a senior member or more so a lover of XDA I would not allow myself to offend anyone's feelings or his/her dignity.
Enjoy & report mods in case you feel something is too offending & the suggestion is going out of context. Cheers
Saksham Katyal
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Very mature words.... This is what I expect from a forum.
Is that your little girl there..... I read about the tragedy.
Broke my heart into a million pieces!!!

tomtommy306 said:
Very mature words.... This is what I expect from a forum.
Is that your little girl there..... I read about the tragedy.
Broke my heart into a million pieces!!!
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No its not mine but it was our's.
Even we are stunned with what happened to her in this little age.
get more about her here.
http://www.supportalessandra.com/
I wish you have a nice time over here. Dont worry xda is community inhabited more by mature people fortunately. Or else mods would be always there.
Regards
Saksham Katyal

tomtommy306 said:
I am a 28 year old male with not much to worry about.
Arguing on a Smart_phone/PPC forum is a little too juvenile for myself.
I was merely reading some threads, saw some rudeness.... read some more.... saw some more.
Then asked if the admins were aware.
I didn't expect it to cause such a stir. WOW!
Most people here have seemed rather decent since I posted this, and I expected nothing from XDA, but a place to learn new things.
I'm not really that concerned about it, just wanted to let the admins know my initial experience.
I was never directly disrespected.... The fact is, I haven't asked for help here at all.
I actually answered a few questions and really nothing more.
So, is there really a need to continue this discussion??
Not for me.... but you guys feel free to continue.
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Lol... I love this thread. You got upset because you saw some guys tell some noobs to search for stuff instead of starting a new thread, so you get all flustered, start a thread about it and then you get all defensive when somebody responds to your post.
OMG I can't believe it caused SUCH A STIR... oh wow.
28 year old male with not much to worry about... lol... this is classic stuff.

Drybonz said:
Lol... I love this thread. You got upset because you saw some guys tell some noobs to search for stuff instead of starting a new thread, so you get all flustered, start a thread about it and then you get all defensive when somebody responds to your post.
OMG I can't believe it caused SUCH A STIR... oh wow.
28 year old male with not much to worry about... lol... this is classic stuff.
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What are you from ebaumsworld? Ya know, I am offended by what you just said, and I'm 19. Does age really matter?
There is always a chance that a question/thread is plausible and that he actually tried to search. And beside, sometimes I get lazy about searching and I just ask the question too. Well actually I ask the question first, and search immediately after because I want to gather all the result as soon as possible.

poetryrocksalot said:
Ya know, I am offended by what you just said, and I'm 19. Does age really matter?
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Dunno... I'm 32 and I was quoting it.

Yeash, this is turning into that thread about religion.
Guys, please.
Noobs: sometimes, seniors get tired of answering the same old questions that can be easily found by a quick google.
Seniors: sometimes noobs are coming from a world of Nokias and iphones. You live in a world where people make ROMs for fun. Seriously.
The lot of you: you live in a world where you rub shoulders with Doctor Manhattan style giants, and don't even know it. Some of the guys on this site will astound you with their knowledge of the intricacies of the minutiae of the encryption systems used in the CE rom structure. They could blow you all away.
Experience is a sliding scale, and even George Lucas knows that "there's always a bigger fish".
Everyone should be polite, you were all noobs once.
V
PS be polite, serious, cus I'll start getting medieval soon.

poetryrocksalot said:
What are you from ebaumsworld? Ya know, I am offended by what you just said, and I'm 19. Does age really matter?
There is always a chance that a question/thread is plausible and that he actually tried to search. And beside, sometimes I get lazy about searching and I just ask the question too. Well actually I ask the question first, and search immediately after because I want to gather all the result as soon as possible.
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Nope, age never has anything to do with it as is evident by Drybonz reply...and like he/she said, he/she is 32. Even at the age of 32 he/she still enjoys coming on to a forum and slamming someone for simply stating something the is bothersome to them, then gets a bigger kick when he/she sees that the reply got under their skin. Sad part is he/she will probably see my reply and some how get joy from it too.
Basically you have 1 of 2 choices on internet forums;
1. Let people bother you and lose sight of why you got on to a forum in the first place just to end up not coming back and missing out because of it.
2. Let it go and realize life is too short to care about people with more guts behind a screen/keyboard and what they have to say. You see a post that bothers you? Skip it and go to the next, simple as that.

wagonis said:
Nope, age never has anything to do with it as is evident by Drybonz reply...and like he/she said, he/she is 32. Even at the age of 32 he/she still enjoys coming on to a forum and slamming someone for simply stating something the is bothersome to them, then gets a bigger kick when he/she sees that the reply got under their skin. Sad part is he/she will probably see my reply and some how get joy from it too.
Basically you have 1 of 2 choices on internet forums;
1. Let people bother you and lose sight of why you got on to a forum in the first place just to end up not coming back and missing out because of it.
2. Let it go and realize life is too short to care about people with more guts behind a screen/keyboard and what they have to say. You see a post that bothers you? Skip it and go to the next, simple as that.
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kudos to you sir

I agree with Wagonis: just ignore any remarks by others that you dislike for any reason.
To Tomtommy: I agree with you that everyone ought to be polite, it is an excellent thing to strive for yourself. But if you let impolite remarks bother you, you just make things worse than they need be. If you ignore them, they will bother you far less. Indignation is a dangerous emotion, because it tends to swell with time. Just let people bicker; when they are really offended, they will make it known. Most people can take a bit of bullying.
[What I am going to say now borders on the insolent, so that I must apologize beforehand, but: I think those who are most insecure about themselves are the ones most easily offended. Those who are confident just think: "oh, an impolite remark" without experiencing much emotional impact. Sometimes, others are judged "offended" even when they themselves do not care.
Another option is that there are just differences in culture: in some groups, rude remarks are considered a form of innocent teasing.]