Develop Bugs

SPB Clone - Nag Screen Removal

SPB Clone is a fine bit of software. It makes a full ghost copy of your BA that you can reinstall after a hard reset - all the registry settings, installed software. etc.
The demo version is fully working but after installing via a clone you get a nag screen that continually pops up to remind you to buy the software.
Because I was so impressed with SPB Clone, I wrote to SPB to ask them if they could provide me with a single user licence at a less painful price, since the PDA I was cloning was actually my phone, and I'm not a big company with many PDAs. They told me that, sadly, SPB Clone was only available on an enterprise licence but then they told me how to remove the nag screen....
1. Open the folder \Windows\StartUp in File Explorer.
2. Tap and Hold and select View All Files.
3. Select bootupdt.exe and select Cut from context menu.
4. Change to the root folder "\" and tap and hold on the empty space within folder view. Select Paste from context menu.
5. Soft reset.
6. Remove bootupdt.exe from the root folder.

And you were not able to find this out yourself?
Last year when I had my tires changed the clerk put a sign on my inner mirror to come back in 50km. And there was of course an ad on the sticker. Your post is like "Hey, today I opened my car and pulled the sticker of the mirror. You won't believe: I've got clear sight again!"

Nice of you to repay their generosity by putting this information in the public domain...

@tintoy: Generosity? I consider this being spam. Nobody wants new posts about "I now know how to reboot!" or "My how-to: Plugging USB cable in". I would accept those kinda posts if he'd just tell about product X, which is cheaper than Y but has same or more features like A, B, C. Only hassle you have to solve is to remove [filename] from autostart.

Chatty said:
And you were not able to find this out yourself?
Last year when I had my tires changed the clerk put a sign on my inner mirror to come back in 50km. And there was of course an ad on the sticker. Your post is like "Hey, today I opened my car and pulled the sticker of the mirror. You won't believe: I've got clear sight again!"
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Oh, well I'm terribly sorry that my lo-tech post offends your obviously tender, high-brow sensibilities.
God help you if someone with less knowledge than you asks you a question face-to-face; I'd imagine they'd deck you with an attitude like yours.
Try and remember that there are, in fact, some people that don't know as much about a subject as you and that, to them, as it was to me, a tip like this is very useful, although it's obviously far, far beneath someone who is clearly an IT deity. Please allow me to prostrate myself before you - in fact, I'm genuflecting before my monitor even now!
Mind you; your grammar, spelling and punctuation aren't up to much. If you're going to slight someone on a written forum, at least make sure you can write, eh?

tintoy said:
Nice of you to repay their generosity by putting this information in the public domain...
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I'm a firm believer in freedom of information.
SPB gave me this information because I am a single user.
I have provided this information to other single users.
If an unscrupulous company wishes to use unlicensed software, possibly risking prosecution, that's their remit, not mine.

madcapmagician said:
Oh, well I'm terribly sorry that my lo-tech post offends your obviously tender, high-brow sensibilities.
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Ok, your're starting to get insulting. That's why I'll answer the last time to this thread.
madcapmagician said:
God help you if someone with less knowledge than you asks you a question face-to-face; I'd imagine they'd deck you with an attitude like yours.
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This is not comparable because this is a forum, not a chat. Most questions can be answered by just searching the forum. And I was not against your post in whole but about the way you described it.
madcapmagician said:
Try and remember that there are, in fact, some people that don't know as much about a subject as you and that, to them, as it was to me, a tip like this is very useful, although it's obviously far, far beneath someone who is clearly an IT deity. Please allow me to prostrate myself before you - in fact, I'm genuflecting before my monitor even now!
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Farcical. No comment.
madcapmagician said:
Mind you; your grammar, spelling and punctuation aren't up to much. If you're going to slight someone on a written forum, at least make sure you can write, eh?
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Here you stepped over the line. If you ain't got no further arguments (if there has been at least one already) you start to insult people. That will make you look respectable, indeed. Although English is not my mother tongue I do speak more than one language. How many do you speak? (Not that I'm really interested.)

Chatty said:
Ok, your're starting to get insulting.
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Your original post was both rude and insulting, hence my reply.
This is not comparable because this is a forum, not a chat.
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How so? Do you not bring your manners to a forum? You are, in effect, saying that because you cannot see your fellow forumers face-to-face you feel you do not have to be polite to them.....and you then get upset when they are impolite back to you.
Most questions can be answered by just searching the forum.
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Why do you assume I didn't? Again, you are being insulting. I scoured the web to find the answer, like most other noobs would do. From the way you wrote, I got the impression you are very IT-literate - well, I am not and there are many others like me. My post is for them.
And I was not against your post in whole but about the way you described it.
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Then I suggest you re-read your first post: in your head, when you typed it, it may have sounded witty and polite and to-the-point; that is not how it came across. If you felt my description was at fault, you should have said so, rather than making rude, tangential comments.
madcapmagician said:
Try and remember that there are, in fact, some people that don't know as much about a subject as you and that, to them, as it was to me, a tip like this is very useful
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Just to reiterate the point.
Here you stepped over the line.
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Agreed, although in my head, when I typed it, it was quid pro quo.
I will publicly apologise here and now for being rude.
Please understand that there is nothing berating in this post - I am merely trying to articulate myself without you being able to physically hear my voice.

madcapmagician said:
Hey guys, I know a way that you can get the hard work of dozens of developers for free. Heck they gave it to me, and so it is implied that they want me to share it with the entire internet. Aren't I morally and ethically bankrupt?
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Yes, you are.
Chatty said:
There is this tire change sticker in my car that is driving me batty
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Hmmm, interesting
tintoy said:
Nice of you to repay their generosity by putting this information in the public domain...
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Chatty said:
Generosity? Huh...spam. X, Y, uh A, B, C, Marco, polo
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Exsqueezeme
madcapmagician said:
Everyone marvel at my use of polysyllabic word play. I am the master of the keyboard. Chatty, my swing thing is bigger than yours.
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madcapmagician again said:
I am a firm believer in freedom of unscrupulousness. It was granted to us in the 18th ammendment to the Constitution. SPB gave me the information because I am single minded and they have no desire to make money. They are actually just out to provide a community service.
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Wow, excellent points, all of them!
Chatty Cathy said:
Actually my swing thing is bigger. And I speak multiple languages, just not very well. A donde esta la casa de pepe?
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Stunning!
madcapmagician said:
Why are you rude to me just because I was rude to you? Don't you understand the consequences of disturbing the molecular dismobilization of the antisymmetric wave function? Egad man. Let me cut loose some more words from my Microsoft Word thesaurus...prostrate, genuflecting, forumers (huh?), tangential, exoskeletal, plebiscite. Take that!
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Do you guys know how tired the rest of us are of this kind of non-productive grade school banter? I am waiting for the "your momma" insults to start any minute. Can someone please delete this thread.

The original post in this thread was a useful piece of information on how to remove the nag screen on a piece of software.
It was not a "How-to" on rebooting or plugging in a USB cable, and i am sure that anyone who wants to use the SPB Clone would be grateful for this information.
The fact that you either didnt understand what the post was about or didnt care doesnt mean you have to immediately flame the poster, if you have no use for the information in a certain thread just move on to the next thread. Trading insults back and forth is the biggest spam anyone could expect to see in a forum, especially this one, which provides so much good information to those of us who use these devices.

I continue to be floored by people's casual attitude toward trading software keys, hacking apps, and getting around nag screens. If the developer did not want you to see the nag screen then he/she WOULD NOT HAVE PUT IT THERE. If the developer gave instructions to one user on how to remove the nag, then great...what a nice developer/company. But unless they expressly gave that person permission to post it out to potentially thousands of people then it is JUST PLAIN WRONG. There is no gray area here, folks. Most of us have to live in a grown-up world and are tired of the impacts that other people's adolescent, situational ethics imposes on us. Do unto others...

cw6447 said:
I continue to be floored by people's casual attitude toward trading software keys, hacking apps, and getting around nag screens. If the developer did not want you to see the nag screen then he/she WOULD NOT HAVE PUT IT THERE. If the developer gave instructions to one user on how to remove the nag, then great...what a nice developer/company. But unless they expressly gave that person permission to post it out to potentially thousands of people then it is JUST PLAIN WRONG. There is no gray area here, folks. Most of us have to live in a grown-up world and are tired of the impacts that other people's adolescent, situational ethics imposes on us. Do unto others...
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I agree with you on the ethics of "stealing" software, my main complaint here was the instant flaming that madcapmagician received after posting, that is not what this community is about. he was not posting a "how-to" on the process of rebooting, he was relaying the information given to him as he received it, i think that the information can be used by those who are ok with "stealing" software and those who disagree can just disregard the information. If the mods decide that the information shouldnt be here they have the power to remove it.

Forgive me for carrying on with this ridiculous and pointless conversation but is it not in fact illegal to unlock contract mobile phones? Would the cellular providers be happy for 1000's of people to remove their branding and software from devices which they have sold? If the software company had not wanted to help the individual then they would not have told him to start with. I am sure that nobody is so special that a software company would whisper information into his ear that they didn't want to be made common knowledge.
This is a tech support forum, it has helped me as well as many, many other people. If you want to start talking about wrong, immoral, illegal or any other description you may have then start looking at what other people are doing.
I appreciate this forum, and it's members. For crying out loud, stop arguing and get on with the job in hand.

Zylo, I agree with you in one regard. The post is perfectly legit insomuch as it is helpful and technically related. But only for people without a conscience. Bret, you are symptomatic of this new generation of kids with no personal accountability in life. To pretend that you can guess that a software company doesn't mind you giving away their software for free is ludicrous. madcap probably got ahold of some sales guy who thought it would be nice to do him a favor. Do you think the owners, investors or developers would have told him to feel free to post it on forums around the internet? Why not take that info and sell it for a profit on eBay? Or better yet why not just sell the software as your own? If they were giving you a free copy then they wouldn't mind you doing whatever you want with it. Right? You see, you keep blurring the lines of common decency to the point where eventually anything goes. You won't understand until someday you actually become a responsible citizen, start your own business, and put your hard-earned money and time out on the line. I bet when the leeches and thieves come after your product you will have a whole different attitude. The "right thing" to do in this case is so easy and obvious. I fear for a world where people can't make that distinction.

Sorry if what i said came across as a flaming. It was not intended as such. I'm just aware that softweare companies have many employees, from designers to developers to marketing people to managers. Of all these people the ones who seeme to have the most alturistitc (read non commercially-minded) approach always seem to be the developers. They are typically just concerned with writing good software and makng it work. If you asked a developer for a free copy of his/her software for 'testing' they'd probally give it to you without complaint! If, however, you asked them if they'd like their contract to end at the end of its term becuase you were going to make the software they wrote completly unprofitable by telling everyone how to get it for free they might be slightly less generous!

Your points have been taken on board but for the record, I work for a small, local mobile phone dealer. How much business do you think we lose from people unlocking phones, and therefore not returning to us?
I'm not saying that is right or wrong but what I am saying is that it is illegal. It is stealing from the provider and taking profits away from independant dealers. Also, how are you to know that my own business did not fail due to non-payers? You obviously open your mouth before engaging your brain. I could not recover the debts owed to my company and it resulted in the business closing. Is that not also theft?
If you want to target anyone go for the real criminals who sell ripped off software and DVD's on the Sunday markets. They are the real problem, not one guy who has made a very small post who has admitted to have lttle understanding of what he has done. I'm sure you have now all alienated him so he will never return to this site again.
Talk about a mountain out of a molehill.

Yeah. Can we consider this conversation over?
Please don't be offended by my posts @madcapmagician, I was just making a point, not trying to demonise you! I would imagine there is even a fairly decent discsussion that could be had about what consitutes ripping off software and what consitutes fair use...

I found my original e-mail and SPB’s reply:
-----Original Message-----
From: Jerzy Bulowski
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 1:01 pm
To: [email protected]
Subject: Clone
Dear Sir or Madam,
I recently downloaded your demo of Clone and have to say that, already, it has served me well after my phone required a hard reset the other day.
I was so impressed that I decided to purchase a copy but was absolutely horrified to see the price of $199. Whilst I can appreciate that Clone is suited to large businesses with many corporate PDAs, I am a single user - the PDA in question is actually my HTC Blue Angel mobile phone - and I was wondering whether you could sell me a single-licence version for a price more similar to what you charge for Pocket Plus?
If this is not possible could you tell me how long the annoying reminder screen will continue to pop up on my phone?
I look forward to your reply.
Regards,
Jerzy Bulowski
Hello Jerzy,
Spb Clone is enterprise product and there's not any "single user" licenses.
How to remove the nag screen in your case:
1. Open folder \Windows\StartUp in File Explorer. 2. Tap and Hold and select View All files. 3. Select bootupd.exe and select Cut from context menu. 4. Change to the root folder "\" and tap-n-hold on the empty space within folder view. Select "Paste" from context menu. 5. Soft reset. 6. Remove bootupd.exe from the root folder.
Best regards,
Alexander Shalin
Customer Support Team
Spb Software House
Email: [email protected]
Web: www.spbsoftwarehouse.com
Phone: +7 812 324 49 44
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Bret, perhaps I should point out that you can download SPB Clone for free from their website, as a demo version. Corporate customers, if they liked it, would then buy a licensed copy for $199.00 – I have “stolen” nothing.
Chris - As far as the ethics of posting said information in the public domain are concerned, my conscience is clear. This information is for single users, like myself. If an unscrupulous company wishes to make use of this information then it’s their ethics that are at fault, not mine.
Tintoy – I’m not offended. It was Chatty’s immediate, condescending, demeaning post that riled me. Zylograth said what I should have, instead of replying as I did:
The fact that you either didn’t understand what the post was about or didn’t care doesn’t mean you have to immediately flame the poster, if you have no use for the information in a certain thread just move on to the next thread.
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And that’s that!

AFAIK I think it's still open to debate whether we discuss cracking. I'm happy to talk about cracking, but not cracks.
Odeean makes a good point that cracking and reversing is part of the education of programming; if you're a commercial developer, or would be one, it's worth knowing weaknesses and pitfalls.
People shouldn't come on here and say "wantttt - crack for thai-g" etc. That's just silly and damn lazy. If you don't know how to get warez, you should be using a Motorola, not even a Nokia. But you should be rewarding programmers, or you should understand when there aren't programmers left to program because they've all gone broke. (And I'm not just talking about cash.. we don't all program for the $$)
But if you want to learn how to crack thai-g, search, ask nicely, or learn and tell. But don't distribute cracks (at least publically). There are other boards for that, and we have enough trouble keeping this board clean enough now-a-days
V

Take it like a man!
Madcap, my almost 3-year old daughter tries to make equally bad logic when I have caught her sneaking a cookie before supper. If you were in court you would be your own worst enemy. The email from spb said "How to remove the nag screen in YOUR case". Not "in your case and EVERY other person you can broadcast it to". Show me where he added, "And please feel free to share this with other single users". ONCE AGAIN, if they did not expressly permit you to give this to other people then it is just plain wrong! No, not illegal...it's the spb CSR's ignorant fault for giving it out to you. Let's say you are standing behind a guy in line at the QuickTrip. You witness the cashier ring up his order, but forget to ring up his Snickers bar. When the customer makes the cashier aware of the error, the cashier says,"Oh that's ok, just go ahead and take it." Does that then give you the right to grab a Snickers bar and put it in your pocket without paying for it? If one person got a freebie then everyone should get it, right? How long do you think QuickTrip will survive giving away it's products? It really isn't any different. Software is intangible property that should be treated as tangible. Just because you can get away with it doesn't mean you should. It is just like all of the thieves who thought downloading music they did not pay for was OK. It wasn't...still isn't...never will be.
As for your equally weak argument of, "If an unscrupulous company wishes to make use of this information then it’s their ethics that are at fault, not mine." Let's take the same QuickTrip. While you are at the counter paying for your snacks (except for the Snickers bar tucked into your pocket), you oversee another employee opening the safe behind the counter. Because of your excellent eyesight and brilliant mind, you see and remember the combination. When you get home you go out to the SafesAndVaultsDevelopers.com forums and post about the dummy at QuickTrip opening up the safe right in front of everyone. You also post the combination to the safe because "if an unscrupulous person wishes to make use of this information then it’s their ethics that are at fault, not mine." Great logic. I wish I could send you to time-out like I can my daughter.
Try this. Reply back to spb. Tell that same Customer Service Rep that you are posting this hack on all of the popular PDA sites on the internet. And copy the support group at spb, too. After they respond to you, post their letter back here. I will be waiting to see the response.
Now I know you would never have posted the above spb info on a site where you thought "unscrupulous" people could visit and get hold of it. I mean, what jerk in their right mind would do that to a company and possibly expose them to real dollar losses? So since you know everyone here is trustworthy, why don't you go ahead and post your email account password, your xda forum password, and the PIN to your ATM account on here. Throw in your momma's phone number for grins. We won't do anything bad with it.
Am I going off on you? Yes. When someone tries to make a clearly black and white argument grey, and aggressively attempts to defend that indefensible position over and again, they deserve to be called out. Take it like a man.

Regarding Rights To OUR Intellectual Property Here

In light of what I considered to be a couple of very disturbing developments, I think at this point, a dialogue/debate needs to be opened on what rights/copyrights a contributor has on the intellectual material he/she posts here.
Sakajati was abruptly censored when he suggested that future roms may be administered through a tool bar and not administered through this site.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=3288089&postcount=10332
And the way that BeyondInvisible was driven off this site by the " takers " and not supported by this site. ( the people that stole his new pay/per icons and published them for free, should have been banned). http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=2798052#post2798052 because he dared suggest that it might be time for all the takers to pony up.
When your work becomes widely successful ala; olinex, jockyw, sakajati, MobileMatt, JCKOTZE, Schap, in the kaiser forums, at what point does toiling around in poverty while you work hard for others for free, become less attractive than selling your work?
Who now owns your work , you, XDA, is it copyrighted? When you decide to take it private what ownership rights does XDA retain?
If you request that XDA remove your work, can they leave an archive of it?
I love this site it is the greatest resource on the net for PDA's but I think these subjects could use a good going over by the Mods and the membership.
Dennis

Removing SJ's toolbar was NOT censorship, regardless of how you're trying to spin it. We received several complaints from users who don't feel comfortable being required to install a toolbar just to use their favorite ROM... ask any Mod, we all get the emails. The action I took (editing the toolbar links) is the most benign available to Moderators. I could have closed the thread, and moved it to a Mod-only section while the investigation/discussion took place. Instead, I opted to merely edit out the download links.
There is no justification for requiring users to install a toolbar into Internet Explorer (or any other browser in the Windows environment) just so they can have access to a Chef's ROMs.
Now while a decision has not yet been made, I can confidently say that if SJ had promoted his toolbar as a tool to help all users of his ROMs get the latest "breaking" new on development, and NOT required it in order to obtain the password required for flashing, then we [most likely] would have allowed the toolbar to stay linked on XDA.

I think part of the problem here is that many seem to think that they are entitled to what the chefs produce for nothing. The hours spent porting and testing should count for something but for many it is just expected. I for one have no problem contributing what I can when I'm able. It is too bad that more don't do this.
Kirby

Intellectual property laws protect the inventor/creator rights of ownership to their intellectual property in cyber media. So there is no fear but a concern for any coder that his or her work marketing could be abused or it could be stolen. That is the risk one takes without his or her choice when they share their creations with others.
I also read XDA rules, and it clearly states that soliciting anything for money is prohibited. many cooks are on the border line of asking for money rather encouraging donation for sharing the fruit of their work with others. I do not have a problem with that and believe the majority here share my sentiment. I have a problem however with someone begging for donation without any substantiating efforts, invention or creation to merit the donation solicitation. That being said, I believe SJ was a true gentleman in all of his posts and never infringed on callus donation request; having a tool bar that he feels if XDA was out ( and it was out few times in the past month) as an optional site but not alternative support site that can be accessed where members can help each other is not a bad idea.
We seem to forget sometimes that XDA site was created to help one developer another achieve excellence in the field of e-communication.
so again, I have no problem with SJ promoting his tool bar as long as it is not used to ransom donation for solving issues and i am sure like I said earlier, this is NOT SJ's intention.

NotATreoFan said:
Removing SJ's toolbar was NOT censorship, regardless of how you're trying to spin it. We received several complaints from users who don't feel comfortable being required to install a toolbar just to use their favorite ROM...
There is no justification for requiring users to install a toolbar into Internet Explorer (or any other browser in the Windows environment) just so they can have access to a Chef's ROMs.
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That was one of my major points, there " was " no requirement . because there " was no rom ". You struck preemptively to something that had not happened yet, because it might happen in the future. You squashed his right to promote a private project , as many many people do here, because a few ungrateful people complained that in the future they might have to obtain the rom it SJ's way.
Had he stated that the next rom would be available only by joining his website, would you have shut him down?
My question is, at what point does a chef have the right to take his work private, and how , without any interference from this site.
Believe me, I am not trying to "spin " anything against anyone, I have a great deal of respect for you and all you have done for this forum ( we miss your input in the Kaiser world ) I just thought that it was a heavy handed response ( and yes censorship ) to something that hadn't even happened yet.
A simple PM could have alieviated the situation for the time being, while the Mods figured it out. Not a head on erase everything, assault SJ's right to promote his work and wares.
And I would say again, that the integrity of this site depends on people to share openly and honestly without fear of unjustified reprisal, SJ has said that he will not for the time being, take any new roms private. I think that is enough for all his links to be restored. If not, what other definitions of censorship do you have ?
JimmyMcGee said:
Your opinion is respected. But the appearance was that he WAS requiring people to use the Toolbar to get the Password for the ROM.
Sakajati can do what ever he wants with his ROM, if he chooses to require the Toolbar, that's his choice. If XDA, the people who maintain and provide some presence for his ROM here say that's not in the spirit of the community, then he can release the ROMs on his website soley.
Basically you have to follow certain rules to post your stuff on SourceForge, so think of at as the same thing.
You seem to be the only one with a problem. sakajati is a great guy and is being cooperative in the investigation.
There is written law and common law. This falls more into to "Common Law" area, which is why I said it was a Grey area.
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I brought this over from the Hyperdragon thread to here, to discuss.
I just want everyone to know, this has more to do with the big picture than it has to do with sakajati. This has nothing to do with NATF or with jimmy and I am probably not the only one who has a problem with the way it was handled. I am just the one with the big mouth. And we all know that sakajati would never say a word or give anything less than his full cooperation.
I just want someone to tell me not just for SJ, but for the good of the whole community and as a precedent for future complaints of this type, why SJ couldn't have been shot a PM asking what his intentions were, and if they approached a grey area, he could have been informed and he would have cooperated. End of any problem. It is not like there was any urgency, as I said before, there was no requirement because there was no rom.
And if people did over react then it is good for everyone to get a dialogue started. That is what this site is all about.
Thanks guys for doing a great job !

denco7 said:
That was one of my major points, there " was " no requirement . because there " was no rom ". You struck preemptively to something that had not happened yet, because it might happen in the future. You squashed his right to promote a private project , as many many people do here, because a few ungrateful people complained that in the future they might have to obtain the rom it SJ's way.
Had he stated that the next rom would be available only by joining his website, would you have shut him down?
My question is, at what point does a chef have the right to take his work private, and how , without any interference from this site.
Believe me, I am not trying to "spin " anything against anyone, I have a great deal of respect for you and all you have done for this forum ( we miss your input in the Kaiser world ) I just thought that it was a heavy handed response ( and yes censorship ) to something that hadn't even happened yet.
A simple PM could have alieviated the situation for the time being, while the Mods figured it out. Not a head on erase everything, assault SJ's right to promote his work and wares.
And I would say again, that the integrity of this site depends on people to share openly and honestly without fear of unjustified reprisal, SJ has said that he will not for the time being, take any new roms private. I think that is enough for all his links to be restored. If not, what other definitions of censorship do you have ?
I brought this over from the Hyperdragon thread to here, to discuss.
I just want everyone to know, this has more to do with the big picture than it has to do with sakajati. This has nothing to do with NATF or with jimmy and I am probably not the only one who has a problem with the way it was handled. I am just the one with the big mouth. And we all know that sakajati would never say a word or give anything less than his full cooperation.
I just want someone to tell me not just for SJ, but for the good of the whole community and as a precedent for future complaints of this type, why SJ couldn't have been shot a PM asking what his intentions were, and if they approached a grey area, he could have been informed and he would have cooperated. End of any problem. It is not like there was any urgency, as I said before, there was no requirement because there was no rom.
And if people did over react then it is good for everyone to get a dialogue started. That is what this site is all about.
Thanks guys for doing a great job !
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My Friend read this...
sakajati said:
Just uploaded the cab to download center. It will add [Slide down for call functions] feature.
*** Please all of you install my toolbar [mod edit: link removed], this is the tool that will keep you updated and you will receive alert/message via the toolbar for news and announcements regularly from me. If you're using HyperDragon ROMs, you have to install it since the next rom release will be password protected and you'll get the password only via this toolbar . No adware, spyware, crapware, underware, read the Toolbar Privacy [mod edit: link removed]for details.***
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Click to collapse
Read the Green Parts. The general consensus is IF sakajati REQUIRES people to use the Toolbar to use his ROMs, he is no longer contributing to the XDA ROM Community.
sakajati is ALLOWED and not censored to require this if he so chooses. However the ramifications are, that he would no longer be allowed to advertise his ROM here.
The "common law" rule is, if you post a ROM on XDA, you are contributing to the community and the ROM shall have NO STRINGS attached. No requirement to Give Money, no requirement to have a toolbar installed.
If sakajati wishes to offer his toolbar as a way to stay in "constant contact" with him, then I don't see a problem. But the release of the ROM shall not be contingent on the toolbar. At least not while it is advertised on XDA.
And P.S. lets not get into calling ROMs Intellectual Property, because honestly, ROMs are Microsoft's I.P. All chefs do is tweak, improve and skin ROMs. And I don't mean to take anything away from chefs awesome work by saying that. So saying sakajati's ROM is his I.P. is like saying you taking you Toyota Celica, painting it Pink with Green Racing strips and boring out the engine, makes that car your I.P.
But as NATF has said, no final desicsion has been made, I only type this reply to give full disclosure, to show that our intentions are not to censor.
Thanks.

JimmyMcGee said:
If sakajati wishes to offer his toolbar as a way to stay in "constant contact" with him, then I don't see a problem. But the release of the ROM shall not be contingent on the toolbar. At least not while it is advertised on XDA.
But as NATF has said, no final decision has been made, I only type this reply to give full disclosure, to show that our intentions are not to censor.
Thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Since this has all been put to rest, I just have some final thoughts and then I'll shut up.
It was never about XDA's/Mod's disapproval as to what he intended to do, you all are entrusted with the success and smooth running of this site and have every right to administer this site as you see fit, (as I have every right to question why ) And it was not really about SJ, he was just the vehicle of my overall concern about creative people leaving this site because of real and perceived ( do it our way or get out ) disagreements.
I guess I just wanted to know, if people decided to take their projects private,such as a new rom, would they still be welcome here to support older projects or develop new projects here ( that fell within XDA guildlines ) and while supporting their projects, could they in a subtle non-commercial way, direct people to private/financially enhancing projects.
And of course I still object to the way it was handled, that sort of, " we are taking it all down until we decide " way of doing it, is something that happens to noobs that don't know any better. Not to someone who has done as much for, and contributed so much to the Kaiser community as sakajati has done.
The Mods always preach, " if you have a dispute with another member, take it to PM, " Unfortunately this great advise wasn't followed, and I am glad that SJ was not offended by this and did not pack up his toys and go home ( like unfortunately other members have done )
And I am sorry if " I " have offended anyone, that was not my intention. I love this site and think that discussions like this benefit the longevity of this site. I am glad everything has been resolved and I will shut up and go away now
Oh yeah ........one more thing
And P.S. lets not get into calling ROMs Intellectual Property, because honestly, ROMs are Microsoft's I.P. All chefs do is tweak, improve and skin ROMs. And I don't mean to take anything away from chefs awesome work by saying that. So saying sakajati's ROM is his I.P. is like saying you taking you Toyota Celica, painting it Pink with Green Racing strips and boring out the engine, makes that car your I.P.
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Click to collapse
Tell that to Chip Foose and Orange County Choppers. They take other people's parts, design and tweak and create masterpieces worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Your telling me a Foose Design isn't intellectual property?

denco7 said:
The Mods always preach, " if you have a dispute with another member, take it to PM, " Unfortunately this great advise wasn't followed, and I am glad that SJ was not offended by this and did not pack up his toys and go home ( like unfortunately other members have done )
And I am sorry if " I " have offended anyone, that was not my intention. I love this site and think that discussions like this benefit the longevity of this site. I am glad everything has been resolved and I will shut up and go away now
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is not an issue of personal disagreement, it is a violation of our rules of operation. When we see questionable activity, we will always take the action of stopping the activity, contacting the OP, and trying to resolve it quickly. I am sure SJ understands this as well as anyone here that it was nothing personal, and simply just S.O.P. around here. It's a lot easier to take down a problem for a couple days, and then let it back up with an apology than it is to remove it after we've debated.
As for you question about prior contributions, of course anyone is welcome to support anything that they have and continue to offer that is in compliance with our rules here. Nothing even stops a user from selling some stuff, and giving others away. It's just that they can't post the stuff they're selling here, just the donation ware.

IP
I have just a couple points. The Phoenix team has a separate website we use for tracking bugs and other discussion so we don't clutter up this site. However our intent is to foster creativity, open communication and cooperation among users and chefs which we hope results in better products for the users of this site. So don't always think a private website like ours or SJ's is a bad thing.
However, I would like to point out what was only stated one time in the thread--the guts of these roms are the ip of microsoft and htc. Now as chef's we find other bits and pieces that are added--and these are the ip of their creators. Sometimes we contribute our own ip--like skins, icons and very specific know how to get the roms to help our devices perform at peak efficiency. But anyone who would try to take a rom private and sell it, would have some major issues without first getting license to do so from MS, HTC and those other people who own the other intellectual property.
There are many examples of apps that were developed by talented people here that have gone commercial. Those apps are still discussed and linked to here because they all have trial periods. There is nothing wrong with commercializing your own ip..The wrong comes when you commercialize ip that you don't own or haven't properly license.
So let's continue a great tradition of creativity. I believe that this site is the primary reason that HTC and microsoft keep trying to make a better operating system. This site is where many ideas come from. This site gives the OS life beyond the normal experience.

denco7 said:
(snip)
Oh yeah ........one more thing
Tell that to Chip Foose and Orange County Choppers. They take other people's parts, design and tweak and create masterpieces worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Your telling me a Foose Design isn't intellectual property?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Pfft Those Posers

some confused thinking here -
A cook can ask for a contribution for his time but there is no way he can claim that a cooked rom is his IPR because it's belongs to someone else start with - no licence to modify has been granted!
Now creating programs from scratch, that's a different issue and how they want to deal with payment is upto them.

my theory is whoever created the forum and then got ppl to volounter to mantain it
ITS THERE FORUM
Its really up to them what they want to do

a few suggestions about adding non-htc WM devices support

*edit: as many people suggested in the posts. a new single forum for other manufacturers with 1 single subforum per maker might be a better idea than whats suggested in this post**
the mods have explained several times why they are not willing to support other non-HTC devices for various reasons over here so im not gonna ask that. i will however ask that the admins to consider spinning off another site to do that.
there are some other sites that try to do that but they ALL fail miserably because they dont have the ridiculously high number of smart users registered to them. to solve this major problem, i propose that the users data base of xda-dev gets synchronized with the newly created site.
the new site may look something like
- windows mobile support and development forums
- htc built devices like palm,xperia...etc
- 1 subforum per device (more if its a very popular devices like xperia X2,omnia, toshiba tg10...etc)

I wasn't aware of the reasoning for no non-HTC device forums. You have a link?
Personally I think we should have subforums for the popular non-HTC devices like i780, Omnia, Epix, SG01, Asus devices, etc. But who am I?

there are many http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=464635
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=463252
and the reasoning is that "jack of all trades is a jackass" or something like that

THE GRIZZ said:
mods: please drop your whack-a-mole hammers and consider this
the mods have explained several times why they are not willing to support other non-HTC devices for various reasons over here so im not gonna ask that. i will however ask that the admins to consider spinning off another site to do that.
there are some other sites that try to do that but they ALL fail miserably because they dont have the ridiculously high number of smart users registered to them. to solve this major problem, i propose that the users data base of xda-dev gets synchronized with the newly created site. all that is needed is for the user to confirm the newly created account in the new site (in case some of the users explicitly dont want to register)
the new site may look something like this
- windows mobile support and development forums
- htc built devices like palm,xperia...etc
- 1 subforum per device (more if its a very popular devices like xperia X2,omnia, toshiba tg10...etc)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First of all, title is misleading.
Second, it's never gonna happen (another site needs more resources, which this site is struggling with.
Third, I give you one day before this thread gets closed.
Cheers

THE GRIZZ said:
mods: please drop your whack-a-mole hammers and consider this
the mods have explained several times why they are not willing to support other non-HTC devices for various reasons over here so im not gonna ask that. i will however ask that the admins to consider spinning off another site to do that.
there are some other sites that try to do that but they ALL fail miserably because they dont have the ridiculously high number of smart users registered to them. to solve this major problem, i propose that the users data base of xda-dev gets synchronized with the newly created site. all that is needed is for the user to confirm the newly created account in the new site (in case some of the users explicitly dont want to register)
the new site may look something like this
- windows mobile support and development forums
- htc built devices like palm,xperia...etc
- 1 subforum per device (more if its a very popular devices like xperia X2,omnia, toshiba tg10...etc)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And add ponderous, overlarge, and un navigatable

sa2.14 said:
And add ponderous, overlarge, and un navigatable
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
just vote no and spare us your silly negativity. i was merely asking for them to consider it. if its a bad idea it will show from their replies and from the poll.
Third, I give you one day before this thread gets closed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
stop suggesting them ideas. and they wont

Its so much easier to add a single "other devices" subforum (not even full section like what they are doing now for every single device device).
this way we all get the advantags of having non-htc devices without the extra work and headache that goes with creating full website page.
i like the " the users data base of xda-dev gets synchronized with the newly created site" part though

My opinion is to leave XDA as it is now
Do not add more non HTC forums!
It will just make it slower
Should be around the net good forums for other brands
When have you saw a site together between reebok and nike?
Every one has its own stores
Just my 3 cents

i had the same idea when i bought my omnia
http://winmodevelopers.co.cc
this site deals with all of the non htc devices
((although may i remind you its no way affiliated with this site it just served as inspiration))
it already has a few roms and a marketplace was opened in january, and yes were stuggling with resources but thats the way it is in the shadows lol
any non htc winmo device can be added, although smartphones will be added through poularity
also we are moving the entire site soon to a dedicted server soon courtisy of QUICKSITE and this will take time but feel free to add your nuggets of info to winmodevelopers.co.cc
also take note its a very fimiliar format to xda so u wont get lost
(disclaimers : winmodevs is not an affiliate of xda-developers.com, the onlt connection is certain members including me who frequent both sites)

I think that would be really cool! The TG01 needs to have support from the wonderful ppl @ xda!

ive already got the tg01 there and now ive just installed a chatrrom for geeks

THE GRIZZ said:
just vote no and spare us your silly negativity. i was merely asking for them to consider it. if its a bad idea it will show from their replies and from the poll.
I apologize for your dismissiveness. Only thing I would point out; is that in any enterprise, diminution of effort is really a bad thing. Take the examples of the car cos. just to name a couple. Orb3000 has it right, I've got a motorola device. Found forums that are exclusive to that. I believe that works out the best.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

jayjay8585 said:
ive already got the tg01 there and now ive just installed a chatrrom for geeks
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Click to collapse
Nice! Where did you get the TG01 from and for how much?
And guys, let's not be dismissive or overly negative like that please, we should try to be friendly.

jayjay8585 said:
i had the same idea when i bought my omnia
http://winmodevelopers.co.cc
this site deals with all of the non htc devices
((although may i remind you its no way affiliated with this site it just served as inspiration))
it already has a few roms and a marketplace was opened in january, and yes were stuggling with resources but thats the way it is in the shadows lol
any non htc winmo device can be added, although smartphones will be added through poularity
also we are moving the entire site soon to a dedicted server soon courtisy of QUICKSITE and this will take time but feel free to add your nuggets of info to winmodevelopers.co.cc
also take note its a very fimiliar format to xda so u wont get lost
(disclaimers : winmodevs is not an affiliate of xda-developers.com, the onlt connection is certain members including me who frequent both sites)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
the site in your signature has more forum sections than actual posts or members. in its current status, it cant complement xda-devs in any way

orb3000 said:
When have you saw a site together between reebok and nike?
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Click to collapse
Well as I understood HTC as a company has nothing with this forum?
And I'm sure reebok and nike wouldn't make site together because each of them want to sell it's sports equipment.
But, if some sport equipment lover make site about sport equipment I'm pretty sure there would be nike and reebok and many others.
I have HTC so I selfishly don't care if there are other devices on XDA-developers.
But if I buy some other non-HTC device some day I would really love to have support for it from great site like xda-developers
cheers

Can someone please explain to me how operating a forum with the amount of members and posts is not a profitable business?

THE GRIZZ said:
the site in your signature has more forum sections than actual posts or members. in its current status, it cant complement xda-devs in any way
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
well firstly
Board Statistics
Our members have made a total of 272 posts
We have 341 registered members
and theres only bout 23 or 24 forums so that makes ur stateate very brash
secondly you think anything you start now will imediatly get 1.5 million members and chefs will flock and devs will batlle to host there crap on ur site, it doesnt work that way
ive worked really hard to get to the site in it urrent state and itll only get bigger
also you have to take into account everyone is eih ergreedy or impatient so if theres question asked on wimnmodevs then nobody sticks around too long because they wont answers now
so see as many little members there is that brilliant going when u rememerb the site only been opened for 6 months and xda has been going for years
but then again u sdont have to use it, thee are a few who are. but i mean if you really dont like it and if its that bad feel free to trawl around xda asking bout it when theres one there
btw this wasnt meant to sound *****y if it did i apologise im just saying if u want a new site at the drop of a hat that has this much support then it not happening im afraid site like this take time

Ok then. Whoever is willing to pay for the major bandwith and whatnot step right up and pay.

Usually I have never comment on those post ”we should get additional None HTC device listed here” but now I will give my 2 cents on this subject. THIS IS MY PERSONALY OPIONIEN I DON’T MEAN TO INSULT ANYONE!!!!:
I NEVER UNDERSTOOD WHY WE SHOULD NOT LIST NONE HTC DEVICES.
This forum has started to developt WinMo and during that time HTC were first manufucturer of such device. However this forum became so famous in last 8-10 years so that when you type anything WinMo related word in Google or any other search engine it leads you at least few times back to this forum. So with Such search engine power many old and new brilliant people come here to meet and share their knowledge. With Such knowledge base and information the searchengine crawlers are as I believe the most band wide consumer.
Now been this site so famous and this site been only on HTC devices, gives actually VERY BIG Marketing advantage to the “Company HTC” As I believe over the years HTC owns some of their popularity to this forum but DOESN’T HAS TO PAY SINGLE CENTS. I mean many other companies paying hard cash to make their names and their products popular in the search engines so that consumers can find them easily.
Furthermore we all here given so much feedback on our Dream devices or find so many mistakes on the current device models so that HTC itself can learn and align them self for future devices or even make correction on next produced patch for devices that are still in production. Again all these are for free of charge and without making expensive surveys. I assure you for HTC it is a kind of Gold mine here.
I personally believe competition amount of the manufacturer can bring only advantage to the consumer. This is for price and for quality!!!
Therefore As I believe continuing supporting only HTC devices here in XDA_DEV gives HTC big advantage on the mentioned COMPETITION and hurt as Consumer!!!
Be frank I don’t believe on those sister forums or what so ever (again I don’t wanted insult anyone’s idea it is just my opinion)
my simple mathematic is:
A forum based of people…people brings Knowledge/information…Knowledge/information brings search engines…. Search engines bring people.
From my experiences building a forum and been successful (popular) is very very Long and hard job
[FONT=&quot]Conclusion of above I would say we should Support here also none HTC devices[/FONT]

redbandana said:
Can someone please explain to me how operating a forum with the amount of members and posts is not a profitable business?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Look arround you will obviously see that this forums attention is not making money!!! But I do fully agree with you that there is alot of opertunity to turn this site to BIG CASH...
However according the websiteoutlook (http://www.websiteoutlook.com/www.xda-developers.com) it stands not to bad there:
Net Worth $1.04 Million Daily Pageview 474342 Daily Ads Revenue $1425.48

[Q] Information about the nitty gritty of XDA

hey, i recently joined this page on facebook (i've withheld the name of the page as to not seem like i'm here to promote it or such, not that it requires promotion with its 2 million members) and a many of us including the owner of the page there are a free-thinking bunch. The problem is that whenever some user finds something we say offensive, we get reported and are blocked from posting for 10-12 hours, sometimes entire days...
The gracious admin there took it upon himself to finance an entirely new site as a refuge for us. But most of lack the technical know-how of getting a site up and running. We have a few volunteers ready to devote their time and skills to help in the site's construction.
The owner suggested a forum-esque feel to the site rather than something like facebook itself and when anyone mentions forum the only thing my mind thinks is XDA!! This site is the epitome of what a forum should be about!!
So i was hoping if anyone could give me some sort of information as to what the site is based on (HTML, PHP, etc)? what type security measures should we be looking at? we read something about a using social networking engines to enable features like instant messaging...
i was hoping if someone could point me (and by relation, us) in the right direction.
Any help would be much appreciated.

psychocyst said:
hey, i recently joined this page on facebook (i've withheld the name of the page as to not seem like i'm here to promote it or such, not that it requires promotion with its 2 million members) and a many of us including the owner of the page there are a free-thinking bunch. The problem is that whenever some user finds something we say offensive, we get reported and are blocked from posting for 10-12 hours, sometimes entire days...
The gracious admin there took it upon himself to finance an entirely new site as a refuge for us. But most of lack the technical know-how of getting a site up and running. We have a few volunteers ready to devote their time and skills to help in the site's construction.
The owner suggested a forum-esque feel to the site rather than something like facebook itself and when anyone mentions forum the only thing my mind thinks is XDA!! This site is the epitome of what a forum should be about!!
So i was hoping if anyone could give me some sort of information as to what the site is based on (HTML, PHP, etc)? what type security measures should we be looking at? we read something about a using social networking engines to enable features like instant messaging...
i was hoping if someone could point me (and by relation, us) in the right direction.
Any help would be much appreciated.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This site is running on vBulletin 3.8.6 which is commercial software. There are free bulletin boards out there. As for security, this is a massive topic that I don't think anyone can summarise. Obvious things like good password policies (long and random, never re-used, etc) and keeping all software patched up to date are key. Other than that it all depends on the implementation. Also, there are penetration testing tools that you can find off the internet to test your site.
Dave

thanks a million Dave. i'll look into it and pass the message on to our group.

psychocyst said:
thanks a million Dave. i'll look into it and pass the message on to our group.
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What Dave said, but beware that your site is only as secure as the system it runs on.
Your system can be the most secure in the world, with lovely nice PHP code, the latest patched vBulletin install, and I might still get into it...
If you are using shared web hosting, and some peon is using an out of date wordpress install, they can likely wreak a fair bit of havock on a poorly setup server.
Unfortunately most shared hosting is poorly setup. If you have 2 million members, you WILL need dedicated server space. I would also suggest you need to seriously consider the undertaking here - 2 million people is A LOT, and I don't know how many simultaneous users you are talking about, but it sounds a big target...
You will need a fairly powerful server from the sounds of it. I would suggest looking at the available forum systems, installing them (free ones), or trying out the demos.
I assist in the running of a number of sites, from single figure numbers of visitors per day, through to hundreds of thousands/millions per day... The requirements for these differ HUGELY. While something free like SMF might be good for a site with 200 folk, it's not likely a good idea on a site with 100,000 visitors per day posting...
Consider backup strategies too, for WHEN the worst happens - not if... Where will you store backups? How will you secure them?
Finally, remember to look to the future. phpBB is pretty poor, I suggest avoiding it. But what will you move to next? Make sure you pick a system that ain't gonna die tomorrow... If it does, you are stuck without security updates, and you might find it hard to migrate to another one... Be sure to go with a system that has good support to migrate further if/when the time comes...

woah!! ok, this was a big help...although we have close to 2 million people signed on, only about 30 - 40% of those are regularly active and perhaps 100 or so who're almost always there...
i saw BBCode implementation at linux mint forums and found it a total fail compared to XDA...i had completely forgotten about the back-up portion...
knew i could count on XDA for a lil' help...God i love this site!!

psychocyst said:
woah!! ok, this was a big help...although we have close to 2 million people signed on, only about 30 - 40% of those are regularly active and perhaps 100 or so who're almost always there...
i saw BBCode implementation at linux mint forums and found it a total fail compared to XDA...i had completely forgotten about the back-up portion...
knew i could count on XDA for a lil' help...God i love this site!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Haha no worries.
From those figures I would size the site based on coping with 5000 simultaneous users minimum. I doubt you will get as much tbh, as many people hit the homepage and look at the latest, then go to the next site they visit.
If you can afford, aim to cope with 10k+ simultaneous, to cover you for if you get a bout of publicity...
I'd reckon on a well-run server you would be OK with 8 to 16 GB of RAM, and a few hundred gigabytes of hdd. Bandwidth is hard to gauge without info on the site and content...
But I think it could be run for under $400 per month, and that is a very high estimate to cover things like multiple backup locations.
You will instantly ruin your site reputation if you need to use backups and they don't work...
If nobody is experienced in server management, hire someone to do it. These things are often best left to the experts where you are unsure... It will likely pay for itself in their expertise at least 3 times a month (or at least that's how often some of my clients proclaim I saved their "lives" )

Finally Kyocera Duraforce My Already Rooted !

I ok will delete my share, co'z replay [URL="http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=61145873&postcount=63"]here[/URL] and here... If Mr Obsy no money to donate... no need donate... u
Thats not for money only! if your need donate, just donate.... if your no have money, you can use the tutorial without i know...|
although you can still consume without money... and our future you can still take my experience and try out without giving feedback or money ...
But these people speak as if I beggars and ask him...
The term donation, without coercion and determination....
But whether Mr. Osby has a copy and try to Kyoceranya then try to develop my tutorial last rewrite and publish at a later ??
thanks...
Somebody need try just contact me... without donate... just FREE! except Mr. Obsy

If u did this post just to ask money for someone else's work, better delete it because is not the way does this XDA community work....

I've never read something that immediately makes me feel as if I've just smoked every drug ever made in one setting. Never, until right just now.

kmt5150 said:
I've never read something that immediately makes me feel as if I've just smoked every drug ever made in one setting. Never, until right just now.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sigh.... I cant tell anyone the frustration level i have is regarding this site, the ads, and the organzation of the info.... Im what everyone would consider an Old Guy! You know, the guy thats perfect for job and company age discrimination. Its difficult to tolerate lack of quality and mediocrity.
I have had a need for a cell phone that actually can take a tiny bump and survive unlike the rest of them due to the environment I work in. I have no choice.
However, as mentioned above from the prior poster regarding the crack pipe smoker.... I have fortold the future of legalized drugs in the US and the wonderful H1B Visa programs Scabs stealing American jobs... of course not to mention the fabulous resource ad intensive web browsing lockups on this website... etc, ect, ect,...
I only ask for a way to place a simple custom rom of the latest version of Android on my phone? Or maybe a link that has WORKING LINKS to the images and instructions on how to flash the phone. Which of course does not exist, work, or otherwise.... Seems to me that I use a program that crawls for dead links???? Wow theres an idea? especially if someone with good intentions cant live up to the good intentions....????
Its still amazing to me that I cant throw money at someone to:
A. View an ad free working forum website that doesn't lock my entire web browser and pc up.
B. Find someone who would simply provide successful workable steps with working links.
C. Or pay someone to walk me through a ROM flash since the very basics of this is the very basis of this website which has now been lost in space.
Why is it impossible to simply find the reason and goal of this website with working links? I realize Kyocera's are not the most popular phones, however an OS is an OS. Still surprising is that someone hasn't created a feature rich version that can be loaded on ANY phone with the ability to custom button functions. Just like any typical OS like windows or linux? If I had the time? I would provide this, however I guess since everyone works fulltime? We need a place to provide less than perfect projects to poison everyone elses phones??? The reason I dont do it is I realize that I dont have the time to provide a QUALITY functioning product without half way hacks...???
Please forgive me for being such a D***, I am truly sorry and mean no disrespect to all whom have worked so hard... The frustration level is based upon this lovely Javascript ad filled site that suck the life from my webbrowsers and my pc's.... I would give anything I had,,,, and I mean anything in order to have a five minute conversation with the creator of Javascript.....(The professors at the colleges insist he created Javascript in three weeks.... and it certainly shows) I guess it cost more than forty bucks a month to host this forum? so we need to make 10k a month to load it up with advertising and greed?
Thanks all for your patient and reviewing my post, I hope that you may be able to point me in the right direction. Please notice all the question marks... I put them there intentionally as a question becuase I dont understand why anyone would intentionally cripple a website with great info for money???? But again, remember Im stupid.