Develop Bugs

Bluetooth PBAP process runaway - major battery drain

Appears that the Bluetooth PBAP process is running away when paired with my car's head unit. It was running for the duration of my drive (51 minutes) and drained about 40% of my battery. I've verified this on several drives now. Killing the process (after pairing) corrects the problem, and there doesn't seem to be any side effects.
Anyone else experiencing this (tried multiple ROMs all with same behavior, leading me to believe it is a Samsung Bluetooth stack issue)

I'm a big Bluetooth fanboy! I use the BlueAnt G2 like all the time. I have noticed on all the roms I flashed, I get HORRIBLE battery life, even though everybody boasting how good their battery life is.. I just couldn't understand it, so I aways go back to my backed up stock. I seem to get tremendous battery life on my stock rom (that came with my sgs2 from T-Mobile).. This would explain it!
I even experience this issue on downloadable tweaked stock roms you can find here. Nothing compares to my battery life when I restore my backed up rooted stock rom.
Interesting find!
Sent from my SGH-T989 using xda premium

That's interesting to hear. I've been attempting to troubleshoot the issue further, and I think that Samsungs bluetooth implementation is a bit wonky. I noticed their MAP (Message Access Profile [sms over bt]) is not working right, and that the PBAB responses are off a bit causing the host to attempt OBEX x-fers over and over again. Interesting that your experience with stock roms proves otherwise. Perhaps it's a kernel thing, but I think the BT stack is binary straight from Samsung.
(Take all this with a grain of salt, I'm by far an expert, and am probably talking out my @ss )
I'm going to give stock a try. 51 minute drive, 100% started, 62% ended - awful indeed
SIDE NOTE: I recognize you and your (wifes) picture... what other nicks do you go by? I've seen you somewhere before.
lawalty said:
I'm a big Bluetooth fanboy! I use the BlueAnt G2 like all the time. I have noticed on all the roms I flashed, I get HORRIBLE battery life, even though everybody boasting how good their battery life is.. I just couldn't understand it, so I aways go back to my backed up stock. I seem to get tremendous battery life on my stock rom (that came with my sgs2 from T-Mobile).. This would explain it!
I even experience this issue on downloadable tweaked stock roms you can find here. Nothing compares to my battery life when I restore my backed up rooted stock rom.
Interesting find!
Sent from my SGH-T989 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

I can confirm that the Samsung BT stack from a stock phone has BT PBAB problems. I've not looked at the battery drain because there's a much more obvious one whenever trying to pair the phone to a BMW bluetooth system. Once connected the car system cannot download the phone's phonebook without first killing the PBAB process first. If you Google for BMW and PBAB you'll be able to read about lots of folks having this problem including this thread, and the only solution is to kill the PBAB process.
Funny enough there isn't a similar issue when connecting to a Toyota bluetooth system. The Toyota BT does support the stereo profile allowing the phone to play music over BT, while the BMW system does not.
Good Luck..

Hey, thanks for the feedback, and other forum link. I'm going to do some extensive testing with mine and try freezing selected BT services to see just what happens. I've done the kill PBAB service and that seems to stop the VERY rapid battery drain.
I can usually tell it's gone awry when the phone starts heating up. (It's in a holster on my belt, and I can feel the heat start, reminding me to go kill the pbab service)
I hadn't though of freezing it (or renaming it) as I figured it was required for the phone book to x-fer. We'll see how it works out.
Can anyone confirm that MAP (Message Access Profile) works anywhere with this phone? (SMS over bluetooth)
More to come.
jasnn said:
I can confirm that the Samsung BT stack from a stock phone has BT PBAB problems. I've not looked at the battery drain because there's a much more obvious one whenever trying to pair the phone to a BMW bluetooth system. Once connected the car system cannot download the phone's phonebook without first killing the PBAB process first. If you Google for BMW and PBAB you'll be able to read about lots of folks having this problem including this thread, and the only solution is to kill the PBAB process.
Funny enough there isn't a similar issue when connecting to a Toyota bluetooth system. The Toyota BT does support the stereo profile allowing the phone to play music over BT, while the BMW system does not.
Good Luck..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

Hmm..im going to test this out too. I run pandora when im in the car and sync my car to my bluetooth fm receiver..i ll attach screens on how i ll control the proccess using llma.
Sent from my SGH-T989 using xda premium

I've had similar experience in my Acura, albeit I reckon my situation is worse.
If pbap is running, the phone will NOT connect to the car's bluetooth. Moreover if I try to kill pbap after getting in the car, the phone (and the car) go wonky and both bluetooth systems hang until reset. The only way it works if I kill pbap before getting in the car, which sucks as it tends to start itself every time bluetooth is started.
I'm searching for a way to kill it PERMANENTLY. Any suggestions?

You can freeze the PBAB in Titanium (pro) or rename it (if you have root) - also causing a lot of problems with BMW/Nissan/Toyota and others is the BluetoothSharing process.
TCUENGR said:
I've had similar experience in my Acura, albeit I reckon my situation is worse.
If pbap is running, the phone will NOT connect to the car's bluetooth. Moreover if I try to kill pbap after getting in the car, the phone (and the car) go wonky and both bluetooth systems hang until reset. The only way it works if I kill pbap before getting in the car, which sucks as it tends to start itself every time bluetooth is started.
I'm searching for a way to kill it PERMANENTLY. Any suggestions?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

Samsung S II Batery Drain Related to Bluetooth
After weeks of troubleshooting this issue, I discovered that my high battery drain was caused by uninstalling the Toyota Entune application on my Android. After reinstalling Entune from the Google Play Market my phone my high CPU utilization and corresponding battery drain completely stopped and my phone works as expected. Perhaps corruption from the install/uninstall of phone to car software is causing Bluetooth corruption:good:.

Bluetooth issues

This is a bit weird.
I downloaded better battery stats and noticed in this that bluetooth had been on for 28 hours. this wasnt reported in the standard power useage part of the phone though. I turned it off and on and then it came up on the phone saying bluetooth 3% power usage. Bluetooth has never been on on my phone.
I then decided to do a reboot and this looks to have cleared it up. This is my third Hox and on each one i have noticed that BT sometimes turns it self on. Anyone else had this issue? wondering if this is part of the battery drain issue?

anubis1980 said:
This is a bit weird.
I downloaded better battery stats and noticed in this that bluetooth had been on for 28 hours. this wasnt reported in the standard power useage part of the phone though. I turned it off and on and then it came up on the phone saying bluetooth 3% power usage. Bluetooth has never been on on my phone.
I then decided to do a reboot and this looks to have cleared it up. This is my third Hox and on each one i have noticed that BT sometimes turns it self on. Anyone else had this issue? wondering if this is part of the battery drain issue?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes, i do get that too. say, i switch on my bluetooth for internet tethering and after using, i will switch off the bluetooth in my settings. however, when i went to check betterbatterystats or power (in settings), the bluetooth remained on. to get rid of it, you just need to restart your phone.
but, i believe this problem is not widespread at all.

Good to know at least someone else has it. I remember it happening on my first Hox as well.

anubis1980 said:
Good to know at least someone else has it. I remember it happening on my first Hox as well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Anyone found a solution for this?

Galaxy Nexus BTLowPower keeps running when bluetooth is off

Hello,
I’m looking for help with a rather strange problem. I’m getting a lot of awake time in Android OS. I installed BetterBatteryStats and noticed it was the service BTLowPower that was doing a lot of kernel wakelocks.
I turned bluetooth off a couple of days (and have rebooted in the meantime even) but still the top service in kernel wakelocks is BTLowPower by a very large margin ... how can this be if bluetooth is turned off ?
Stats are in BetterBatteryStats Kernel Wakelocks
Unplugged 12h47min.
BTLowPower 9h33min, 74.7%
I've attached a screenshot
I have a Galaxy Nexus which is running stock Jellybean.
Thanks in advance for any advice !

Same here.
Please help.
My battery drains out because of this in 12h and 1.5h of screentime
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus

bat0nas said:
Same here.
Please help.
My battery drains out because of this in 12h and 1.5h of screentime
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do you guys have other Bluetooth devices around? I have a Motorola S805 headset as well as a cheapo BT2.0 dongle from DealExtreme.
I typically don't have the headset turned on unless it's connected to the computer, but what I'm finding is that if I just leave my phone with the dongle turned off and the headset turned off then I don't get the BTLowPower battery drain.
If I turn the dongle on, and turn on the headset then I typically get the BTLowPower battery drain in my GNex. I have to reboot the phone for it to go away. I'm not really sure the exact sequence of events to cause the drain to occur, but I feel like it's definitely related to turning on and off my S805 headset or being around the dongle.

There might be other bluetooth devices around (such as phones of a colleague or something), however the bluetooth on my phone is turned OFF and I still keep getting the BTLowPower in kernel wakelocks Today for example it kept my phone awake for over 10 hours

Anyone ? I keep having this problem ...

Same problem here. BTLowPower keeps draining my battery.
I have bluetooth and Jabra headset off...
It usually happends when I unplug my GNex from charging.
Please help....
-----------
sorry for my bad english.

Same issue
I'm running a Toro Gnex with the Vanir AOSP ROM. It's buttery smooth, and I've had no problems at all, other than this specific kernel wakelock. Same scenario as the OP.
If anyone finds out more about it, I would be grateful!

Airplane Mode
NicholasFarseer said:
I'm running a Toro Gnex with the Vanir AOSP ROM. It's buttery smooth, and I've had no problems at all, other than this specific kernel wakelock. Same scenario as the OP.
If anyone finds out more about it, I would be grateful!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've been reading about this all morning. I run Automateit Pro and have it go into airplane mode at night. After losing 25% battery overnight, the investigation began. BTlowpower was keeping the phone awake. It looks like airplane mode can be the culprit, possibly in combination with Wifi set to always on. I am set up to turn Bluetooth off a couple of minutes after going into airplane model tonight, I'll follow up with my findings over the weekend.

bigknowz said:
I've been reading about this all morning. I run Automateit Pro and have it go into airplane mode at night. After losing 25% battery overnight, the investigation began. BTlowpower was keeping the phone awake. It looks like airplane mode can be the culprit, possibly in combination with Wifi set to always on. I am set up to turn Bluetooth off a couple of minutes after going into airplane model tonight, I'll follow up with my findings over the weekend.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Great, keep us posted. I also turn airplane mode on at night, but my Bluetooth is always off.
Did anyone try to hard reset their phone ? I called Samsung but I got the standard reply to hard reset my phone, I haven't tried it yet because I doubt it would work and I have a lot of authenticators on it and it's a bit of a hassle. But if any of you guys already tried it I would love to hear if it worked ! Thanks !

BTlowpower solved
Darthy1980 said:
Great, keep us posted. I also turn airplane mode on at night, but my Bluetooth is always off.
Did anyone try to hard reset their phone ? I called Samsung but I got the standard reply to hard reset my phone, I haven't tried it yet because I doubt it would work and I have a lot of authenticators on it and it's a bit of a hassle. But if any of you guys already tried it I would love to hear if it worked ! Thanks !
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
BTlowpower issue solved by turning Bluetooth on and then off again after Airplane mode activated. However, that caused another issue - modem_usb_gpio_wake to crush my battery. Doing more testing today to resolve that one - will post again when that one is solved.

BTlowpower and modem_usb_gpio_wake resolution
bigknowz said:
BTlowpower issue solved by turning Bluetooth on and then off again after Airplane mode activated. However, that caused another issue - modem usb gpio wake to crush my battery. Doing more testing today to resolve that one - will post again when that one is solved.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
After testing different configurations this weekend, it looks like turning off sync causes these 2 kernel wakelocks. I tested 2 states: Airplane mode + no Wi-fi, and no data (no Wi-fi + no Wireless data, voice signal on). In either instance, the wakelock occurs with sync off. Leaving sync on finally achieved the low overnight battery drain (< 5%) I've been looking for. Regardless, to avoid battery drain after shutting data off:
Turn Bluetooth On and then Off again. If you are using airplane mode (this may be overkill), also turn Wireless Data On and then Off again.
Let me know if this helps.

bigknowz said:
After testing different configurations this weekend, it looks like turning off sync causes these 2 kernel wakelocks. I tested 2 states: Airplane mode + no Wi-fi, and no data (no Wi-fi + no Wireless data, voice signal on). In either instance, the wakelock occurs with sync off. Leaving sync on finally achieved the low overnight battery drain (< 5%) I've been looking for. Regardless, to avoid battery drain after shutting data off:
Turn Bluetooth On and then Off again. If you are using airplane mode (this may be overkill), also turn Wireless Data On and then Off again.
Let me know if this helps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi thanks for posting !
Just to make sure I understand, you say the solution is to turn bluetooth on and off again after turning off airplane mode ?
Just for completeness sake, this is my situation: overnight I turn on airplane mode and I sometimes have the wakelock draining my battery during the day (but not always). Draining doesn't occur during the night as while it's on airplane mode I'm also charging it.
I will try every morning when I turn airplane mode off to turn bluetooth on and off again afterwards for a few days and see if that helps. Let me know if I misunderstood.
Thanks,
Jorn

Just found a kind of workaround at another thread, this might be helpful (if it works ).
It doesn't, the drain still occurs >_<

gwindlord said:
Just found a kind of workaround at another thread, this might be helpful (if it works ).
It doesn't, the drain still occurs >_<
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I actually have a workaround that works for me. During the night I turn off my phone instead of using airplane mode. I no longer have BTLowPower and I also am able to successfully connect every time very quickly with bluetooth to my carkit, which previously was very flaky. It's definitely a standard issue though with the galaxy nexus, I can reproduce it on 2 other galaxy nexi as well.

I just installed BetterBatteryStats two days ago, and I'm seeing the exact same results. I can't help but wonder if the issue is at all related to the kernel I'm using (LeanKernel v4.7), or if perhaps a resolution to the problem could be solved by a modification within the kernel code. The ROM I'm running is BAMF Paradigm v2.4, which is based on AOSP v4.1.2. Like the rest of you, I'd really like to get this fixed.

trestevenson said:
I just installed BetterBatteryStats two days ago, and I'm seeing the exact same results. I can't help but wonder if the issue is at all related to the kernel I'm using (LeanKernel v4.7), or if perhaps a resolution to the problem could be solved by a modification within the kernel code. The ROM I'm running is BAMF Paradigm v2.4, which is based on AOSP v4.1.2. Like the rest of you, I'd really like to get this fixed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Anyone have any updates on this? My GNex just started doing this randomly after being stable for a long time.

the7thson said:
Anyone have any updates on this? My GNex just started doing this randomly after being stable for a long time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
After three days or so, the issue seemed to go away on its own. I didn't make any changes to any of the apps I was running, nor did I update the kernel. I really have no clue what took care of it for me, but I haven't seen it since.

trestevenson said:
After three days or so, the issue seemed to go away on its own. I didn't make any changes to any of the apps I was running, nor did I update the kernel. I really have no clue what took care of it for me, but I haven't seen it since.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Weird, mine went away as well after toggling BT a couple times. Guess we'll file this one under unsolved mysteries

[Q] Sprint LG G2 Native Hotspot Mod Bluetooth Usage

So, I've been able to successfully mod my Sprint LG G2 (ZVC) using the MOD located here, but ever since I installed it, I've been having some severe battery drain issues whenever Bluetooth is turned on.
I use Tasker + my BT headset as a key to lock/unlock my device, so I generally keep Bluetooth on during the day.
However, since I installed this mod, Bluetooth has been utilizing 60% or more of the battery, and the drain has been extensive (the device gets very warm), and my projected battery life is about 8.5 hours before it completely drains.
Does anybody else have any similar issues with this mod? Reboots do not correct this, and the issue was not present at all (for months) before using this mod.

Relaera said:
So, I've been able to successfully mod my Sprint LG G2 (ZVC) using the MOD located here, but ever since I installed it, I've been having some severe battery drain issues whenever Bluetooth is turned on.
I use Tasker + my BT headset as a key to lock/unlock my device, so I generally keep Bluetooth on during the day.
However, since I installed this mod, Bluetooth has been utilizing 60% or more of the battery, and the drain has been extensive (the device gets very warm), and my projected battery life is about 8.5 hours before it completely drains.
Does anybody else have any similar issues with this mod? Reboots do not correct this, and the issue was not present at all (for months) before using this mod.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I havent actually used bluetooth for more than a few mins since I installed that mod. However Ill run it with my headset today while Im cooking and report back on what I find. I dont use tasker tho. Have you tried uninstalling that just to see if maybe that is the culprit?
Are you running the tethering mod while this is happening?

bigpappa said:
I dont use tasker tho. Have you tried uninstalling that just to see if maybe that is the culprit?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I will uninstall and test.
bigpappa said:
Are you running the tethering mod while this is happening?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This issue persists regardless of tethering usage. (I don't use BT tethering, only WiFi / USB, and that's only on rare occasions, like when I travel for work).
If this mod is, in fact, the culprit, is it a viable alternative to just keep backups of the mod and original .jar files, and swap them around as necessary? I know I risk reboot looping every time I change it around (stock rooted, no recovery), so I'm looking to minimize the file swaps.
EDIT: I will also note that this happens whether my headset is connected or not. Simply having Bluetooth turned on causes a disproportionate battery drain.

Well I ran bluetooth with my photive headphones for over 2 hours, not a bit of heat generated and no battery drain. I then ran my headset with tethering on my computer for about an hour still playing music from the stock music app, with same results.
The g2 runs bluetooth 4.0 and that is a very low power consumption vs older versions.
Im thinking the culprit is either some corrupted files on your end or tasker. Im sorry I cant help more. Im just not experiencing the same thing. Im also stock rooted with only the tether mod as modified system files.
One other silly thing worth looking at is to see if "media" app is using alot of resources or wakelocks. Ive had the symptoms you describe above because of some corrupted audio files on my device in the past.

bigpappa said:
Im thinking the culprit is either some corrupted files on your end or tasker. Im sorry I cant help more. Im just not experiencing the same thing. Im also stock rooted with only the tether mod as modified system files.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
bigpappa said:
One other silly thing worth looking at is to see if "media" app is using alot of resources or wakelocks. Ive had the symptoms you describe above because of some corrupted audio files on my device in the past.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
After you posted, I decided to turn on bluetooth after I got home from work to benchmark the battery drain. No overheating or excessive drain.
Since I created this thread, there have been no changes to audio files, and no programs have been uninstalled.
The audio file note is an interesting one. I'll have to re-load my albums and verify.

bigpappa said:
Im thinking the culprit is either some corrupted files on your end or tasker.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I found the culprit (and why a reboot wasn't helping).
Orbot was, for some reason, registering under Bluetooth for battery usage. It was configured to start on device boot with transparent proxying. When I closed the Tor connection on my device, then closed Orbot, it would usually silently re-connect and start burning my battery.
Disabling the start on boot feature allowed me to reboot without continued drain. I eventually narrowed it down to Orbot being the culprit. I'm not sure why it's reporting incorrectly under Bluetooth.

New Moto 360 battery died after 3 hours!

I've just changed from a Gear Live to a Moto 360 and after charging and syncing the battery died after three hours! Horrendous. Someone please advise! My gear Live with the same settings never did this.

Hi,
I just received a Moto 360, and I know what you're going through!
I've gone from 3 charges a day previously, and today the watch is reporting I have almost 2 days remaining of charge.
First, FULLY cycle the battery. Leave it on the stand over night, run it until it turns off (if you're in a rush, ambient display, full brightness!). Then, full charge to 100% and leave it for an hour on the charger once it is full.
After that, do a factory reset on the watch (in settings). In Android Wear on phone, use the settings menu to resync your apps.
Do one more full discharge and full charge, and you should be sorted.
If not, use the Watch Battery section of the wear app to identify problem apps. Before today, I had never seen a "watch idle" entry, because an app was holding the watch awake. Identifying and removing that app has solved the rest of my problems.
Hope all this works. Some of the steps seem/may be unnecessary, such as the factory reset, multiple full charge cycles. However, I speak from experience that they do work!
Edit: Do be aware that the charge cycles where you do a factory reset and sync will drastically drain the battery, giving the illusion that the problem is still there.

chrispy_212 said:
Hi,
I had never seen a "watch idle" entry, because an app was holding the watch awake. Identifying and removing that app has solved the rest of my problems.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So which app was that. Could you be specific please? I've had my 360 since October and had no issues with battery life until about 2 weeks ago and now it can't make it through a work shift all of a sudden. I've seen the 'watch idle' and the android guy with no title in the battery stats (as well as 'Bluetooth', which is mind blowing) as the main drains but I can't figure out which apps need the boot. Thanks in advance for the help, this problem is driving me crazy!

For me it was WeChat. I didn't even know it had a wear component. However, using Wear Battery Stats (available on Google Play) I noticed that there was a missing icon under "app activity" because it had updated that day. Tapping on this blank icon told me it was an activity belonging to WeChat. Using this, I deduced that was the problem app. Removing it seems to have solved my issue. I'd recommend a similar process, although I only found this app on that day due to it updating, so you may struggle. I get the impression the standard of coding of wear apps so far is pretty shoddy, I don't think not providing a package name and icon is unusual or specific to this one app.

chrispy_212 said:
Hi,
I just received a Moto 360, and I know what you're going through!
I've gone from 3 charges a day previously, and today the watch is reporting I have almost 2 days remaining of charge.
First, FULLY cycle the battery. Leave it on the stand over night, run it until it turns off (if you're in a rush, ambient display, full brightness!). Then, full charge to 100% and leave it for an hour on the charger once it is full.
After that, do a factory reset on the watch (in settings). In Android Wear on phone, use the settings menu to resync your apps.
Do one more full discharge and full charge, and you should be sorted.
If not, use the Watch Battery section of the wear app to identify problem apps. Before today, I had never seen a "watch idle" entry, because an app was holding the watch awake. Identifying and removing that app has solved the rest of my problems.
Hope all this works. Some of the steps seem/may be unnecessary, such as the factory reset, multiple full charge cycles. However, I speak from experience that they do work!
Edit: Do be aware that the charge cycles where you do a factory reset and sync will drastically drain the battery, giving the illusion that the problem is still there.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
chrispy_212 said:
For me it was WeChat. I didn't even know it had a wear component. However, using Wear Battery Stats (available on Google Play) I noticed that there was a missing icon under "app activity" because it had updated that day. Tapping on this blank icon told me it was an activity belonging to WeChat. Using this, I deduced that was the problem app. Removing it seems to have solved my issue. I'd recommend a similar process, although I only found this app on that day due to it updating, so you may struggle. I get the impression the standard of coding of wear apps so far is pretty shoddy, I don't think not providing a package name and icon is unusual or specific to this one app.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for the reply. I don't use that specific app so no luck there. Good call on Wear Battery Stats though. I actually already use it but I'll use its stats this time instead of the standard wear stats. Thanks again, hopefully I can find the culprit, been having issues with my phone battery as well recently too.

B1gC72 said:
Thanks for the reply. I don't use that specific app so no luck there. Good call on Wear Battery Stats though. I actually already use it but I'll use its stats this time instead of the standard wear stats. Thanks again, hopefully I can find the culprit, been having issues with my phone battery as well recently too.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
fyi - i haven't tested this since it happened, but i disabled BT on my phone (just disabled in settings, without disconnecting the wtch first) and the watch drained itself in probably about 20-30 minutes. When I finally got it charged, it said BT took everything.

When I was having app issues, I also noticed very high bluetooth consumption. This could likely be a poorly coded app constantly trying to ping your phone for data and receiving no reply as it is not designed for a scenario where your phone is not connected.
The alternative of course is defective hardware.
A step I did not include in my original post was that I also clean-flashed a new rom on my phone. I felt this was due to a unique problem that I had (bluetooth problems in car also) but nonetheless thought I should mention that too. It's hard to be sure which step exactly cured my watch.

Same was happening to me, after several master resets and trial and error, i found that on my Samsung s7 edge i had my watch set as a trusted device so when it was connected to my phone my device would unlock without passcode. After turning that off, battery life is normal again, 24hrs plus. I think the constant bluetooth checking to see if it was attached drained battery extremely fast, hopefully this helps someone