Related
Hey guys,
I am new to this forum and I have been following the Galaxy S development scene quite closely for a month now. I don't know if this is the right place to post this but mods, feel free to move the thread if necessary.
I personally have been using some of the Roms and applications here and I wanted to give back to the developers in a way that I could. Therefore I am setting up this thread in order to allow forumers to show their appreciation and to also gather the developers' donation links so that whoever, just like me, is compelled to show their support to these guys can do so under one thread.
I would like all the devs and anyone involved in the Galaxy S Android scene to come on to this thread and post a link to either their Paypal accounts or some other way that we can use to donate and I will compile them here.
Others can come over here and just post a personal thank you to the devs.
I think that a little bit of appreciation is a big incentive for the devs to actually go ahead and continue supporting the scene, making the Galaxy S the best Android phone out there! They might be nice enough for releasing their work for free but that doesn't mean we can't help them out a little bit. After all, that is the whole foundation that community-supported open source OSs are built on.
So let's give back!
EDIT: I wanted to start posting up the links to the donate pages of all of the devs that post here but I can't due to forum restrictions. I would appreciate it if a moderator would do that for me Thanks!
Well thank you
If somebody want's to buy me a beer they can do it here!
I'm just a poor student so this could help me get a social life
Thank you for this thread
If somebody wants to donate for the FREE Samsung Galaxy S Solution for Unlocking, use this link
ALL DONATIONS MADE TO MY PAYPAL ACCOUNT WILL GO TO CANCER SUPPORT
RazvanG .xda dev
Hello fellow XDA-Users,
I have been a member of this forum for quite some time now, and currently spend my time in the Optimus 2X section.
People from there might recognize me from my guide on how to build cyanogenmod7 from source and some bits and pieces
from the O2X section.
Some of you might know, that LG delayed the update for this phone quite a bit, which brings me to the purpose of this
thread: The amount of spam and Off-Topic in the general section as well as the development section has blown up
insanely over the last 2-3 months, and this has caused a lot of tension between users and mods, among users and of course
users and devs. While, in case of the general section, this might be bearable, it is not for the dev section, since the real
devs can't work properly because all the useful information gets buried under the same questions and off-topic again and again.
Just recently, a mod was required to close a thread containing bleeding edge information and made it clear that he had no
intention of reopening it again.
I have spent a lot of time thinking about this, and I want to dump my thoughts for a solution in this thread. While
I don't know to which degree these can be implemented or if they might contradict the philosphy or user-rights of XDA,
I still want to post them. These ideas apply first and foremost to the dev section. I see the dev section as a read-only
section for anyone that doesn't have anything to contribute towards the development, no matter how long he has been
here or how many posts he already made. Therefore I propose the following mechanics to keep the dev sections clear of Spam.
Allow only recognized developers, contributors and the other verified ranks in the forums to start threads in the dev section.
This prevents off topic threads from being created in the first place. If someone new really wants to start a new thread because
he really has something useful to share, I imagine some sort of verification process where users can submit their threads and
moderators, or maybe even the parties allowed to post already, to review and approve the topics. This will create additional workload
on the moderators, but I believe it won't be that much more compared to the endless reports they are receiving right now. Also, allowing
a larger base of users (recognized contributors/developers) to approve the topics will reduce the workload even further.
To prevent the spamming of existing threads, apply the same strategy as mentioned above with the following changes:
For a specific threads, the thread starter (and possibly a list of users defined by the thread starter) can either approve single
posts or users in general to being able to post in the thread. The user, after being approved, will be able to post freely in the
thread, or maybe even in all threads by the approving thread starter.
I know these are very strict rules, but since they are only applied to the dev sections, I think they are worth considering, since it
will reduce all posts made in this section to those really dealing with dev stuff. Like I already mentioned, it may increase the workload
on whatever mods/users will have to approve. This gave life to my idea of expanding this userbase to the recognized developers/contributors
as well.
I see that my concept is anything but precisely laid out, but I think it represents a good base to create a system, that will make the
dev sections of this forum what they used to be: A place where developers can develop without having to read through pages of spam and
off topic and thus be more productive and less pissed off. The approval also puts another step into the process of thread/post creation
that might make users reconsider if they really want to post or perform a simple search first.
Thanks for your time!
Also, in order for this thread to be recognized, please give it a good rating. Thank you.
aMpeX
edit: Just to make myself clear again, this approach is far from perfect, but I believe with some input and discussion, we can make it so.
Please feel free to post your opinions, corrections or extensions to this idea.
I will try to collect some ideas from the discussion to summarize it here:
Inspired by anasdcool71's post:
Give OPs the opportunity to decide whether they want to moderate their thread, or accept any comment that is made during thread creation
by ticking a checkbox for example.
Hear, hear. I have said almost exactly the same thing myself before now and couldn't agree more with your thoughts. It's not an ideal solution, but maybe XDA need to take an uber-strict approach to stop this destruction by its own users.
this topic needs ofc a lot of discussion, expecially since i know neither about the capabilities of the code nor how the owners of XDA want to approach it.
I feel by starting this discussion we can iron out a system that works.
I feel that there is simply no other solution than being a little strict on the dev sections. Users still have enough room to post in the other sections, but in the dev sections, where all the magic happens, this is not helping at all, so I think it makes sense restricting these sections in that manner.
The 2 features are quite good, but still there are certain restrictions.
For the 1st point :-
You said that RCs, RDs and other verified ranks should be allowed to create a thread. Well, most RCs have been given the rank because of their polite and courteous nature throughout the site, and some of their work on guides, ROMs and kernels. RDs are kinda the same, just that their work is an expert one. So basically Senior Members or Members create threads for their ROMs and kernels in the dev section, and then if their work is good enough, they are appointed as RCs and RDs as per the requirement. So this feature cannot extend to only RCs and RDs as it may block the opportunities of other members to become one. Even if a Senior Member is allowed in this feature to create a thread, many good rom devs, who might be new to XDA, may feel the frustration to complete not 10, but 100 posts!
For the 2nd point :-
The OP of the thread might not know the user himself so he might not choose users correctly. Some users holding only the Junior Member or Member title might know a lot of info about that particular rom/kernel. Furthermore, this feature will really prove tiresome for the OP as there will be a lot of users waiting for his/her approval. And as far as the case for spam goes, the OP may inform the particular mod to remove the posts.
anasdcool71 said:
The 2 features are quite good, but still there are certain restrictions.
For the 1st point :-
You said that RCs, RDs and other verified ranks should be allowed to create a thread. Well, most RCs have been given the rank because of their polite and courteous nature throughout the site, and some of their work on guides, ROMs and kernels. RDs are kinda the same, just that their work is an expert one. So basically Senior Members or Members create threads for their ROMs and kernels in the dev section, and then if their work is good enough, they are appointed as RCs and RDs as per the requirement. So this feature cannot extend to only RCs and RDs as it may block the opportunities of other members to become one. Even if a Senior Member is allowed in this feature to create a thread, many good rom devs, who might be new to XDA, may feel the frustration to complete not 10, but 100 posts!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I know this approach wasn't the best. My chain of thaught was simply to try to restrict the userbase that can start a thread. To enable non RDs and RCs to start threads, I included the idea of an approval by either MODs and/or RDs and RCs. After a user has been approved once, he retains the right to start threads and post in the dev section.
I guess my bigger picture is to build a welldefined group of users allowed to post in the dev section, and also easen the way for this group to include new members, since I believe creating a new verified group and manage applications is just too much work.
anasdcool71 said:
For the 2nd point :-
The OP of the thread might not know the user himself so he might not choose users correctly. Some users holding only the Junior Member or Member title might know a lot of info about that particular rom/kernel. Furthermore, this feature will really prove tiresome for the OP as there will be a lot of users waiting for his/her approval.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is also a weak point of my proposition, my idea was to provide some sort of inbox where OPs can see the posts submitted and simply approve the ones he deems fit, thereby weeding out the useless information and SPAM. It is a lot of work ofc, but I, for one, would prefer a clean and moderated dev thread over one bloated with Spam.
Maybe one could let the OP decide which model he wants his thread to follow by, by simply ticking a checkbox during thread creation.
Interesting idea.
I believe I've brought up all of the above suggestions at some point or another (not dismissing or anything, just I have looked into this for a long period of time, several years now in fact!)
I'll try to summarise the benefits and disadvantages of each key suggestion:
1) Allow only "Recognized *" and above to make new threads in dev.
I'd love nothing more than this... The trouble is users wouldn't want it! They will complain if we implement this, since not every developer on XDA is an RD... Some may not have applied, some may have applied but not had it processed yet. Others may have applied and been accepted (but we only add the users to the RD group once per month to reduce time spent on it), and some may have been rejected for not meeting the criteria.
This would end up upsetting more people than it would benefit, causing more arguing and bickering from them
2) Restrict who can post in a thread.
This is what we already aim to do with the 10 post rule. The trouble is that if we raise it, it keeps out genuine contributors. If we lower it, we get crap through. Right now, we think 10 is about the optimum, but that's not to say we're not adverse to ever changing it if needed.
The issue with giving the OP control over who can post is that some people would abuse this. For example, I don't imagine many devs who would "approve" posts critical of their ROM, or giving negative feedback on it. Part of the way XDA works is it ensures that every thread is outwith the control of its owner, so feedback isn't being hidden or removed because it isn't agreed with by the OP of the thread. That's why XDA doesn't follow the trend of a few other sites to give thread owners moderator abilities in their own threads.
We've got a team of mods who are impartial and can deal with issues without considering if a post is "beneficial" to user perception of the developer or not (like a dev would do if he was approving posts).
We do constantly try to think of new ways to solve these problems, and you've given me a few new ones to think about
Thanks
maybe then we should focus on the part of my idea that easens the entry into the group of users that are allowed to posts, not necesarily tieing it to the RC RD status, but unblocking the restrictions individually and extending the committee to administer these admissions from MODs and Admins to RD/RCs.
This would require a one-time effort by new devs, submitting their new ROM/thread to the dev sections, and having it approved by aforementioned group.
pulser_g2 said:
2) Restrict who can post in a thread.
This is what we already aim to do with the 10 post rule. The trouble is that if we raise it, it keeps out genuine contributors. If we lower it, we get crap through. Right now, we think 10 is about the optimum, but that's not to say we're not adverse to ever changing it if needed.
The issue with giving the OP control over who can post is that some people would abuse this. For example, I don't imagine many devs who would "approve" posts critical of their ROM, or giving negative feedback on it. Part of the way XDA works is it ensures that every thread is outwith the control of its owner, so feedback isn't being hidden or removed because it isn't agreed with by the OP of the thread. That's why XDA doesn't follow the trend of a few other sites to give thread owners moderator abilities in their own threads.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree totally about the 10 post limit.. As i have seen many examples of the spam/useless post by newbies/noobs who post in dev section... As our samsung galaxy y duos dev section when created had not got this restriction on it (just an accidental miss i feel).. but its corrected now.. so i have seen how worse it may get if this limit is revoked.. and i have been thinking of an idea as many times i have come across new users complaining that they know about android stuff and they wanted to help dev in development and by the time they complete 10 useful post routine valuable time will be wasted etc... So i thought of this idea when i read the op's message in this thread...
How about providing OP a option to exclude a newbie member who has not made a single post yet to make posts in dev section..? So that if the dev feels/knows the user will be good for his thread and he can contribute to development?
and lets also put another rule to keep spammers away.. as there is a loop hole in my suggestion.. which is when a spammer may create 2 accounts and in one account he will obtain 10 posts and create a thread in dev section.. then spam the thread with another account by making him exception..
So we can add this option to OP of the thread only if the thread has been say one month / one week old... as this will make sure that the thread is not created for spamming and thus it also ensures actual development is going on in the thread and the dev is known.. this exclusion is only for that thread on dev sub forum.. i dont know this may be a too much workload on server..
I was suggesting this exclusion method because i have seen around 5-10 members who PM me whenever they have some issue with my kernel or any other rom related to my device for that matter... i am happy and i have no issues to help them at all.. i have also kindly suggested them to make 10 valuable/useful posts in Q & A section and post in my threads instead of M as it might help other users too who may have same issue/doubt.. but i really cant say it directly into their faces and they may not understand my point ... so i have been interacting with such users through PM and i feel they should have interacted more with forums instead of just one person.. and there might be many others who might have contacting through PM only..
So please consider this..
Also this really is a great suggestion too...
anasdcool71 said:
@pulser_g2 - The if-else statement in your sig is really great. :good:
And I've come up with a request. I've seen that many new users don't actually know/get the reason behind the 10-post limit. I'm not talking anything particularly about spammers, but there are some good users who just don't know the reason. I've just seen so many posts in so many threads saying "this 10-post limit is so frustrating","i have to PM the dev","i can't even report a bug",etc. Not one or two or 10, but many posts like this. So my request was that they'd be directed to that thread "10-post count limit in development fora", after they register. I'm sure many of them will understand. After all, it isn't that hard to get to 10 posts.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's an eternal problem than,us, Admins,Mods and all Recognized Tribe against which we are constantly fighting.
In the RC'stribe, we try to think and are trying to find solutions that would enable to reduce the number of useless posts.
I says reduce, cause we can't delete all of these posts.
But the real problem, it's a mentality problem due to Internet.
Actually, with Internet, people can and wanting all, now and quickly. I'm writing a question, I want my answer now!
A large majority of users don't take the time for read and seek. They want everything quickly and now.
And against this fact, we cannot fight!!
For whoever mentioned it, the ten post message does link and explain why... But nobody reads it...
pulser_g2 said:
For whoever mentioned it, the ten post message does link and explain why... But nobody reads it...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why ? I don't understand what you mean exactly
I have wrote a post on RC chat about this problem and send the link
philos64 said:
Why ? I don't understand what you mean exactly
I have wrote a post on RC chat about this problem and send the link
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Click to collapse
i think he means the 10 post limit sticky thread is already linked and also its explained why its there but still no new user reads it..
philos64 said:
Why ? I don't understand what you mean exactly
I have wrote a post on RC chat about this problem and send the link
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I mean that someone mentioned perhaps making it clearer to users why they can't post etc...
I replied to say that the message already explains this and links them to a thread with information
pulser_g2 said:
I mean that someone mentioned perhaps making it clearer to users why they can't post etc...
I replied to say that the message already explains this and links them to a thread with information
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry @pulser_g2
But I understand what you mean
It's better clear. Thanks
After reading a few threads and comments from our members I thought it may be worthwhile to create a Feedback, Recommendations or Idea's thread for XDA. We want to improve our forum for developers and the normal users.
So, rather than sending a PM to a Moderator, please feel free to leave any feedback or idea's you may have to improve XDA, so we can discuss them properly, openly, with the plan to hopefully implement the ideas which are good.
It's sole purpose is to improve XDA and collect your thoughts and idea's.
We will all be monitoring this thread, and someone will hopefully reply without much delay.
Thanks
Rick
Moderator/Developer Committee
Edits done by Clark Joseph Kent to better support XDA.
XDA-Developers needs to be more about developers
While I see that time and users have made XDA less about development and more about user support, I think XDA has gone too far in that direction.
Developers need a place to DISCUSS development.
The "General" subforums are too overwhelmed with threads like "Post pictures of your phone", "list of threads linked from other places" and other random "general user" stuff.
The "Q&A" subforums are now a place where moderators chase newbies to. The most technical question you might find in the Q&A section these days is "I just bricked my phone, what do I do?" (Usually, the answers are either making fun of the OP or telling him/her to search.)
The "Development" subforums, which seems like a logical place to discuss development, is now reserved for people to post finish products only and beg for donations - It's the XDA version of the "app store." There's no actual "development" discussion allowed.
Here's what we don't have anymore (but desperately need):
A place where a kernel developer could start a thread discussing the pitfalls of turning off processor cores on a particular device when the device is idle. That would likely lead into a discussion on possible ways to optimize the IN/OUT code for the cores, which would actually *gasp* promote development.
A place where a person might post a "HOW TO" document describing how to modify a stock firmware for a specific device to override carrier controlled lock downs. (For example, editing the CSC for a samsung device.)
A place for development related DISCUSSION - not just a subform for "I cobbled together mods I copied from other people into a so-called ROM and will now beg you to donate to me and press my "thanks" button."
XDA promotes itself as a DEVELOPERS FORUM. The definition of "forum" is "A meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged." Doesn't that seem to indicate that development related discussion would be encouraged here?
(continued...)
---------- Post added at 11:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:51 AM ----------
So, the obvious question about my post above is how do you moderate a "developers discussion" subforum?
I honestly don't see a problem with that. You make posting access to that subforum by request only. The access should be granted pretty freely but with a note reminding the user that any non-development discussions will result in loss of access to those subforums. Plain and simple. Any RD's or ERD's would automatically be given access without the need to post a request.
Only developers should moderate those subforums, as the fact is that XDA has some moderators that have no clue whatsoever what "development" is.
I'd even go so far as to suggest that XDA's ERDs would be given final say in moderating those subforums. Actually, it might be a good idea to give ERDs final say in moderating all the development related forums - including the existing so-called "development" and "original development" subforums.
...
I'll have one more post to discuss the current vagueness of the rules and the random enforcement of them...
Gary, while I agree with many of your key points one I disagree with is that only elite developers (who don't have the time) are the ones who should have the 'final say' with regards to moderation, and that they are the best qualified to do so. Given a good set of rules to use as guidelines, any level headed person who is committed to helping XDA move along smoothly is qualified to be a moderator. I am not a developer, however, I've been moderating forums for years now. People are people no matter what the subject. You and I have discussed the rules, which are being worked on. I like the idea of a 'developer only', invite only forum. I think it's time to make that happen. Given that I am so not a developer, I know when I'm over my head - and we have people on the team who moderators like me can turn to. Moderators are here to help, not hinder - I think we can work this all out so the developers are happier, users learn, and moderators moderate
garyd9 said:
I'd even go so far as to suggest that XDA's ERDs would be given final say in moderating those subforums. Actually, it might be a good idea to give ERDs final say in moderating all the development related forums - including the existing so-called "development" and "original development" subforums.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Some interesting points you've listed, which I can honestly say are being looked at, however your point above, I'm gonna have to disagree with. The ERD's are extremely busy with actual development, as are most, if not all the developers. If we where to also ask the ERDs to moderate all the development related forums, they'd have no time to develop
I didn't suggest that ERD's would be constantly moderating them - only that they'd have the opportunity (if they chose it) to be the final say. Who do you trust more to make an informed decision about what is development and what isnt':
Entropy512 or ModJohnCanBarelyRoot?
I think the ERD's are more involved (at least in reading) than many people think, and XDA should respect their knowledge and ability by giving them the option of stepping in saying that, despite what a non-developer moderator might think, this is or isn't dev related.
Anyway, it's just a suggestion.
garyd9 said:
I didn't suggest that ERD's would be constantly moderating them - only that they'd have the opportunity (if they chose it) to be the final say. Who do you trust more to make an informed decision about what is development and what isnt':
Entropy512 or ModJohnCanBarelyRoot?
I think the ERD's are more involved (at least in reading) than many people think, and XDA should respect their knowledge and ability by giving them the option of stepping in saying that, despite what a non-developer moderator might think, this is or isn't dev related.
Anyway, it's just a suggestion.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. I have the utmost respect for ERD's, and RD's. I'm not a developer myself, would never claim to be, but I do try and read up on things to understand them so I can make informed decisions. But likewise, I do ask developers for advice on specific things, then learn from what I'm told. In an ideal world, we'd let ERD's have the final say, maybe even RD's, but with so many in house fights amongst so called dev's, there is the potential for abuse which is what concerns me. I cannot see ERD's doing this mind you.
Again, interesting ideas which I welcome
So on to what I'm sure will be a sore subject: Rules and moderation...
I realize that XDA has grown by leaps and bounds since I first joined. Back then, there were only a handful of people geeky enough to have smartphones. Today, they are the norm. With more users there are more devices, more forums and XDA needed more moderators. That's perfectly understandable. It's also understandable that XDA has reached into the "non-developer" pool of people for moderation help.
However, the forum rules which the moderators supposedly moderate by are too vague and really don't guide users (or moderators) in the proper way to do things. It only makes matters worse then the moderators enforce those rules in seemingly random ways. Finally, when a bad decision is made by a moderator (or a decision that a user thinks is bad), there's no documented way for a user to ask for help. "Report to moderator" is pretty useless when you're only reporting to the same person you are complaining about.
If there's a guideline, it should be shared by ALL the moderators and documented so that users can understand it. The primary location to find these rules and guidelines is a post that is stickied in every single forum/subforum here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/announcement.php?a=81 If it's not in that post, then it's fairly safe to assume that users don't know about it.
So what's wrong with those rules? Well, they are pretty vague in too many cases. Vague rules lead to different people interpreting them differently (or interpreting them selectively for different people.) Here's some examples:
"Don’t use XDA to advertise your product or service. " "Commercial advertising, advertising referral links, pay per click links and other income generating methods are forbidden. Do not use xda-developers as a means to make money." -- Yet, how many people have seen a developer clearly post (or get someone else to post on their behalf) that if people don't "donate" enough money for them to buy a device, they don't development for that device. To me, that sounds like "I'll sell my development for the cost of the device."
"Off-site downloads are permitted if the site is non-commercial and does not require registration.... but may be permitted if ... the site is a relatively small personal website without commercial advertising/links (i.e. not a competitor forum-based site with purposes and aims similar to those of XDA-Developers.com.)" -- There are literally thousands of links on this website for downloads on sammobile.com or samfirmware.com. That site requires registration, advertises, and has forums that "compete" with XDA. Yet, the links are still there.
"If you are developing something that is based on the work of another Member, you MUST first seek their permission, and you must give credit to the member whose work you used." -- I think this one depends on who is violating the rule. Apparently, if its a 15 (now 16) year old kid, it's okay. Yes, I'm bitter about this one as I have had my work used (without my permission), had reported it to moderators, was told someone would look into it, and then had the report disappear into a black hole. It only made matters worse when that same person accepted "donations" given as a result of the code stolen from me. Being I ask people to donate to a children's hospital (not to me) for my work, I feel as if my work was stolen from me, and money was stolen from a child who desperately needed medical care. There's no question as to who developed the code, as gerrit/github timedate stamps don't lie. In truth, I wouldn't have minded about this so much if the little thief forwarded the donations to a real charity. I do share my work freely, but I VERY seriously resented (and still resent) my work was used for a thief's profit. To my way of thinking, there's nothing vague about the rule here - only the lack of enforcement.
Then there's the whole thing with that types of threads go into which subforums. There's simply NO consistency with this. A perfect (and recent) example is that I posted a thread in a dev subforum containing modifications for a single stock samsung package, SecLauncher2.apk. That was pushed to apps&themes by a moderator. That same moderator, however, has permitted threads for modifying only "SystemUI.apk" and only "android.policy.jar." He's also permitted completely non-development related things such as "post modem dumps here" and "stock deodex firmware."
So, not only are the rules vague, but the moderation of the rules is so inconsistent that a user can't even look to precedent to decide what is and isn't allowed.
....
I'm going to stop here. I feel like I've started ranting, and that isn't productive. The points are valid, but discussing them has brought up things I'm (obviously) very bitter about.
Really appreciate this feedback, guys. We're going to bring it forth in our monthly call with the admins and site owner. :highfive:
What about doing a forum named like "other devices root development". There are a lot of potential devices that don't get root because they don't call the devs atraction (and some of the have locked bootloaders).
I also think that there are forums from brand new "high-tech" devices that don't get development because well, there is no development for unlocking bootloaders or doing something like root for locked bootloaders, which happens on some devices. So, again, othere devices could have their chance.
mfsr98
@garyd9, no need to be bitter, I'm actually glad to hear you views, so rant away. I created this thread for this very purpose, to hear the views of the users, to better XDA
...........................
You can lead a fool to wisdom but you can't make him think! XDA, mobile wisdom, not a n00b feeding ground!!
-gary
While I agree with some of what you have said I feel if you want strictly 100% development talk then that is reserved for the RD forum for RDs to have amongst themselves... Yes there are developers that are not RDs and to that I say they should apply to become RDs. There needs to be a place to allow users to provide feedback and suggestions on things that are developed.
Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2
sgt. slaughter said:
-gary
While I agree with some of what you have said I feel if you want strictly 100% development talk then that is reserved for the RD forum for RDs to have amongst themselves... Yes there are developers that are not RDs and to that I say they should apply to become RDs. There needs to be a place to allow users to provide feedback and suggestions on things that are developed.
Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There is a place for that. The problem is there isn't a place for real development talk. Any real discussions get drowned out by inanity. I think with the influx of new people that noise to real development ratio has finally reached a tipping point. Then again, just how much input can Jon Q. Public have in development other than saying "I want this" or "How do I do that"? Those are user issues. We need to develop better developer solutions.
reinbeau said:
There is a place for that. The problem is there isn't a place for real development talk. Any real discussions get drowned out by inanity. I think with the influx of new people that noise to real development ratio has finally reached a tipping point. Then again, just how much input can Jon Q. Public have in development other than saying "I want this" or "How do I do that"? Those are user issues. We need to develop better developer solutions.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hence my initial suggestion, that if you want 100% dev talk take up and use the RD forum and discuss in there...
Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2
sgt. slaughter said:
Hence my initial suggestion, that if you want 100% dev talk take up and use the RD forum and discuss in there...
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Click to collapse
Xda DEVELOPERS. Why would a site called xda DEVELOPERS push development talk off into a corner, while non development talk reigns free?
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garyd9 said:
Xda DEVELOPERS. Why would a site called xda DEVELOPERS push development talk off into a corner, while non development talk reigns free?
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Adapt with the times as things change.... Change and adjusting is tough at times but if done so correctly its for the better of all those involved...
It is absolutely impossible to have purely 100% code talk in the dev sections. The size of the userbase is way too large for the mod team to regulate that.
Hence the RDs section will be best if you want no nonsense dev talk.
Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2
sgt. slaughter said:
Adapt with the times as things change.... Change and adjusting is tough at times but if done so correctly its for the better of all those involved...
...
Hence the RDs section will be best if you want no nonsense dev talk.
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You may be right, but I don't want to consider the possibility that XDA-Developers might become a non-developers forums. If your suggestion is carried out, I'd predict that it'd slowly (but surely) lose it's developer core and become more and more another "android central" or other generic handheld forum.
My reasoning is simple: XDA doesn't give birth to developers - they are born and bred before they get here. However, you're suggesting that they won't have a place to "talk shop" here unless and until they achieve RD status, which I'm assuming involves a certain application and requires that some projects have already been hawked here on XDA. I'm making some assumptions about RD here, but I think it'd be fairly safe to assume that a person can't submit a professional non-XDA resume to get it. As well, you are also always going to have some devs that simply refuse to "apply" for what they consider a "silly title." More especially those that see "ROM cooks" called RD and look the other way.
What is a real developer going to do in that case? Simple: find someplace else to talk shop.
(It's almost comical the way I talk about RD here. I've been doing professional dev for a very long, have given back to the android and ppc communities, and been an XDA member for a long time - but never bothered with RD status here when the program started. So, I honestly don't know what it might involve. I might be wrong about any type of requirements.)
I guess this question moves beyond my suggestions. I've been basing things on a developer-centric forum. That's what XDA-Developers was when I joined, and quite a few FAQ's we point users to indicate that it's still intended to be. If XDA is going to move away from that, then please disregard my suggestions.
Take care
Gary
sgt. slaughter said:
Hence my initial suggestion, that if you want 100% dev talk take up and use the RD forum and discuss in there...
Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2
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Not everyone who develops is an RD - and why would you remove the ability for people to learn and share?
garyd9 said:
Xda DEVELOPERS. Why would a site called xda DEVELOPERS push development talk off into a corner, while non development talk reigns free?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2
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Exactly.
It seems obvious that one specific issue that everyone agrees on is that *something* needs to be done to handle "developer discussion." While there are different opinions on the best way to do that, I haven't seen anyone post anything implying that dev's talking shop is a bad thing.
Fallen Spartan, perhaps this thread can branch that particular conversation to a separate thread? That would allow this thread to deal with the other issues without confusion.
Thanks
Gary
garyd9 said:
It seems obvious that one specific issue that everyone agrees on is that *something* needs to be done to handle "developer discussion." While there are different opinions on the best way to do that, I haven't seen anyone post anything implying that dev's talking shop is a bad thing.
Fallen Spartan, perhaps this thread can branch that particular conversation to a separate thread? That would allow this thread to deal with the other issues without confusion.
Thanks
Gary
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For the time being I'm inclined to let the discussion continue in this thread as there isn't much else being discussed here atm. If more idea's/recommendations appear, we can then create a new thread....if needed. Also, if a set way has been agreed on a particular idea/recommendation, I can create a second post updating users so its not lost within the thread
Making room for real developers again
reinbeau said:
Not everyone who develops is an RD - and why would you remove the ability for people to learn and share?
Exactly.
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Hello,
I am one of those professional developers in real life, who don't have the time to play silly points games just to get access to the developer part of a forum. So my "XDA status" is stuck at "noob", but I am really here to look for a place to share technical discussion with other developers.
Looking around (I have been lurking for years now), I think the following improved structure would be a good idea:
In each area (General, OS, device) there should be 4 development subforums rather than the current 1 or 2:
1. Firmware and theme releases.
One thread for each firmware/theme series, hosting download links in the top 3 posts, and support discussions in the rest of the thread.
For instance the Android Samsung Galaxy III "Firmware and theme releases" forum would have exactly one "Cyanogenmod" thread and at most one "Cyanogenmod kang by temasek" thread.
Real cooks can post new threads and create the first two replies in their own thread. Non-noob users can post in existing threads after the 3. post in the thread.
2. Free App releases.
One thread for each free app, hosting download links in the top 3 ports, and support discussions in the rest of the thread.
For instance the Android Free App releases forum would have exactly one "ROM Manager" thread.
Real developers can post new threads and create the first two replies in their own thread. Non-noob users can post in existing threads after the 3. post in the thread.
3. Unreleased experiments
One thread for each unreleased firmware/theme/free app, hosting only discussion of what should go into it, difficulties in making it etc. When released the thread is moved to 1 or 2 as appropriate, at the thread OPs command.
Only real cooks and real developers can post here, there is a limit on new threads per user per month depending on the posters general standing.
4. Developer to Developer
This hosts regular forum style discussion threads where developers for that target (OS/phone) can ask each other questions about technical details for the target, one thread per subject matter, no threads about specific projects. This is the place to discuss stuff like ("Which wceload variants are in which upstream firmwares" in a WM forum or "How are the GPIO pins on the SoC connected to other parts of the phone (in a phone specific forum) or "How does the foo() API work" (in an OS forum)).
Only real cooks and real developers can post here.
Determining access:
Now as to determining the "real cook" and "real developer" status of a user, there could be a quiz and a number of extrinsic tests for each OS. Quiz questions would be multiple choice that a real cook/devel would answer easily, but a poser would get wrong. Other tests could be "prove that you have a developer account on Market/AppStore/OVI/Marketplace" "Show that you can sign an empty sis/cab/etc. with a valid developer certificate" Because getting a new certificate/account for some of the platforms may no longer be possible or may be otherwise restricted, such
tests would just count as N correct quiz answers in determining the pass/fail.
Hell foreign friends,
I am the original author of Nubia Z17's MIUI9.
I found someone stealing my ROM ,MIUI9.I was very angry.
Please stop your infringement!!!
曦颜XY said:
Hell foreign friends,
I am the original author of Nubia Z17's MIUI9.
I found someone stealing my ROM ,MIUI9.I was very angry.
Please stop your infringement!!!
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I'm not quite sure stealing is the right word for it. He has ported it for international use. Furthermore he has quoted your work in his initial post. Maybe you two could figure something out and work together, since everybody likes your miui 9 port so much. It would be a shame to have miui 9 not ready for international use.
曦颜XY said:
Hell foreign friends,
I am the original author of Nubia Z17's MIUI9.
I found someone stealing my ROM ,MIUI9.I was very angry.
Please stop your infringement!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You need to read the Forum Rules. XDA is about sharing open source projects...
Rule 12:
12. Sharing
XDA-Developers is based on the principle of sharing to transmit knowledge. This is the cornerstone of our site. Our members and developers freely share their experience, knowledge, and finished works with the rest of the community to promote growth within the developer community, and to encourage those still learning to become better. There are those, however, who take advantage of this model and try to make personal gains from the hard work of others.
In order to preserve the delicate balance between sharing for the good of the community and blatant self-promotion, regular members and developers alike must understand (and agree) to the following:
12.1. Give credits where due - Credits and acknowledgements for using and releasing work which is based on someone else's work are an absolute must. Works reported to have no credits will be taken down until proper acknowledgements are added by the member in question;
12.2. Courtesy - While most of the work released on our site falls under the umbrella of open source, that is not the only license model being used by developers on xda-developers. In order to prevent problems, we ask that if you decide to base your work on someone else's that you check the license model being used (as it might not be as permissive as one may think);
12.3. Re-releasing other's works as your own is forbidden. The code that you release into the wild must have something beyond minor aesthetic changes that makes it better than the last. As this can be subjective, kang reports will be reviewed on a case by case basis. If you feel that your code has been kanged, please contact the Dev Relations team (listed below) if you cannot solve the issue amicably via PM. Please understand that you will be asked to provide evidence to substantiate your claim;
12.4. Developers can issue take down requests (by contacting the Dev Relations team) under the following circumstances:
- in-process builds start showing up on forums when the developer is not yet ready to release the work;
- cases in which another developer is too aggressively soliciting donations or misrepresenting the work (kanging);
- unofficial builds where an official build is already available;
In summary, we want people to have access to work and knowledge alike. Sharing is good and courtesy and ethics go a long way.
Developers with questions, comments, complaints, or concerns about our rules (or anything!) should send a PM to our Dev Relations team (efrant or sykopompos) or to a Moderator. We are here to help!
Thread closed and moved.
The dev who asked for money is @joshuous (Oneplus 3 & 3T dev) and the moderator who helped is @Magnum_Enforcer.. and possibly @Sam Nakamura
A simple timeline of things:
1) Dev's rom (VertexOS) didnt have an update since September
2) "Suddenly" dev breaks his phone, and asks for donations
3) @Magnum_Enforcer deletes the message, and reminds him of rules
4) Dev says he wont continue development without a phone
5) Another user posts a link with a used phone at 200$ (i think from Swappa) and prompts other users to donate, many users agree
6) Users donate to the dev, dev thanks users for donations and says he will continue development .
Of course the majority of messages got deleted eventually by @Magnum_Enforcer (or maybe @Sam Nakamura)
So my question is Are devs allowed to ask for users to donate for a phone so they can continue development?
If this is not the right place to post this, please redirect me to the right thread
Sir, how can you even speak about something you completely don't know about?
Points im making clear:
The dev did not force for donations anywhere (and anyways nobody from xda donated) The vertex community(outside of XDA) decided to donate for a new phone so he could continue the amazing and promising work he's been delivering. If not he'd have bought another phone and continued to develop for it .
The developer complied to what he was instructed to : He did not even request for donations after he was warned to not do the same.
IT WAS THE COMMUNITY WHO INITIATED THE DONATION .
And please know that its the developer who's spending all the precious time on this for making all of us happy (please let me know if its you)
You, sir, should be ashamed to have ranted and spoken absolute **** about something you have no idea about. I don't think your stubborn ass belongs to a great place like XDA.
Other points:
1. This happening does not involve XDA and is totally out of XDA's boundaries.
2. I thought we were all aware that the dev was working on Oreo which was the reason for the pause in official builds.
3. Nobody is showing bias here. Please show us proof if you got any.
Not going to start a flame war here. I'm going to do this in a reasonable manner. I welcome any moderator (@Magnum_Enforcer and others) to discuss with me and allow me to provide every evidence needed to explain the situation and support my case. Feel free to pm me.
gordito_gr said:
The dev who asked for money is @joshuous (Oneplus 3 & 3T dev) and the moderator who helped is @Magnum_Enforcer.. and possibly @Sam Nakamura
A simple timeline of things:
1) Dev's rom (VertexOS) didnt have an update since September
2) "Suddenly" dev breaks his phone, and asks for donations
3) @Magnum_Enforcer deletes the message, and reminds him of rules
4) Dev says he wont continue development without a phone
5) Another user posts a link with a used phone at 200$ (i think from Swappa) and prompts other users to donate, many users agree
6) Users donate to the dev, dev thanks users for donations and says he will continue development .
Of course the majority of messages got deleted eventually by @Magnum_Enforcer (or maybe @Sam Nakamura)
So my question is Are devs allowed to ask for users to donate for a phone so they can continue development?
If this is not the right place to post this, please redirect me to the right thread
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Click to collapse
Seems like you are too stubborn to give up. Very well.
Let's break things down a bit, shall we?
Joshuous has unfortunately damaged his OnePlus 3 accidentally, which means that - at the time - continuing to develop the ROM is impossible. Common sense, isn't it? Kernel building can be done blindly, but not ROM building by any means, or else the users may quite likely face serious bugs or even bricks, and will require a tediously longer period of testing that will deem the whole project meaningless. Joshuous was ready to give up on developing since, well, no device to test his ROM on. But the community didn't want to let go and soon enough a campaign to fund a secondhanded OnePlus 3 was begun by a generous member of the community (and NOT Joshuous himself). It may be inappropriate to post direct donations links, as kindly explained by @Magnum_Enforcer in the VertexOS thread. And after a quick discussion, and adequate moderating, the donation link was removed by the mods and the whole discussion was taken to somewhere more private away from XDA - as per the XDA rules and request of its moderators.
It's worth noting that the last official update from Joshuous was on the 16th of September, with a hotfix build released shortly by one of the project contributors, which caused the thread participants (with you pittifully being amongst them) to falsely deceive that the project has been abandoned, even though Joshuous was posting status updates when possible. However, it's been repeatedly stated by Joshuous and his contributors (me included) that the ROM hasn't been abandoned, and that the pause of official builds is a natural thing when the developer starts to work on the major Android version upgrade - just like most of the ROMs.
Again, I would like to emphasise some points. As far as Joshuous went with 'breaking the rules', he directly posted a link to the funding campaign that explicitly stated the campaign's goal to buy a secondhanded OnePlus 3 unit. As soon as the link was removed, and Joshuous made aware of the rules and that this was considered a violation to them, Joshuous has gratefully abided by @Magnum_Enforcer 's decision and the XDA rules and took the donation somewhere else out of the XDA boundaries. And of course, we must emphasize the fact that you have been rudely bashing Josh and @calvinistmac (you even dared to rudely call him "his lackey" just because he responded to you and gave you a status update, and I have not-so-kindly stepped in. And if my memory serves me right, I even advised you to get your hands off the keyboard for your own good - an advice that apparently wasn't taken into consideration and has cost the XDA forum lots of space, and has significantly cost the mods quite some time to clear your trash talk and rude comments and not to mention how depressed Josh was when he saw, and still see, such allegations made against him)
Now let's get back to your preposterous claim
gordito_gr said:
The dev who asked for money is @joshuous (Oneplus 3 & 3T dev) and the moderator who helped is @Magnum_Enforcer.. and possibly @Sam Nakamura
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Click to collapse
Incorrect. Joshuous didn't actually start the campaign of funding a OnePlus 3 device for development, he only stated that he lost the phone accidentally. Only thing he did was pasting a link to a campaign that was started by another XDA member, who did enjoy VertexOS and was very generous to do whatever it takes for the project to continue. And no, Magnum_Enforcer didn't help him, he actually took down the link asap and kindly refreshed our knowledge of the XDA rules. Sam Nakamura didn't help him either.
gordito_gr said:
A simple timeline of things:
1) Dev's rom (VertexOS) didnt have an update since September
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Click to collapse
Can't be denied, but I just did explain why did Josh pause the official builds above.
gordito_gr said:
2) "Suddenly" dev breaks his phone, and asks for donations
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That's nothing short of an individual issue of trust. Nothing to do with XDA or any other site. I suggest you go see a doctor and talk with him about your uncertainities and conspiracy theories - that's all I can say.
gordito_gr said:
3) @Magnum_Enforcer deletes the message, and reminds him of rules
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I don't see anything wrong here. It's just the moderator doing his job properly, and I highly commend him for that :good:
gordito_gr said:
4) Dev says he wont continue development without a phone
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True, and justifiable. ROM developing cannot be done blindly. Even kernel developing must need a very highly experienced dev to come up with dependable stable kernel builds if done blindly without the actual device in hand.
gordito_gr said:
5) Another user posts a link with a used phone at 200$ (i think from Swappa) and prompts other users to donate, many users agree
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What's wrong with seeing a good and supportive community? Is that against the rules, or does it defy the laws of physics?
gordito_gr said:
6) Users donate to the dev, dev thanks users for donations and says he will continue development .
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Given the previously explained circumstances, and the wonderfully supportive community, the developer has gratefully accepted the community's helping hand. What's wrong with that?
gordito_gr said:
Of course the majority of messages got deleted eventually by @Magnum_Enforcer (or maybe @Sam Nakamura)
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And we commend him/them for doing his job properly and promptly reminding us of any violation to the rules. I would like to remind you and the gentlemen that among the "majority of the messages that got deleted eventually" was your rude reply to @calvinistmac where you called him Josh's lackey, which is terribly impolite and unrespectful to say the least.
gordito_gr said:
So my question is Are devs allowed to ask for users to donate for a phone so they can continue development?
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The answer of this question can be found in @Magnum_Enforcer 's post here, which apparently you have gone through and failed to understand.
gordito_gr said:
If this is not the right place to post this, please redirect me to the right thread
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That's up to the moderator to decide. But one thing for sure, XDA is not the place for you to blatantly drag the devs in the filth and lace your hate on them.
I hope such guys get banned from XDA, as those destroy the whole community. They don't even have a sense for community feeling or how to act in one.
I've seen many post of you, which are disrespectful and childish. And this one is the top of the hill.
Mostafa explained the situation very well. Josh never asked for donation and the campaign has been created by a user, not even a contributor!
Mostafa Wael said:
And we commend him/them for doing his job properly and promptly reminding us of any violation to the rules. I would like to remind you and the gentlemen that among the "majority of the messages that got deleted eventually" was your rude reply to @calvinistmac where you called him Josh's lackey, which is terribly impolite and unrespectful to say the least.
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I just hope you change the rules, because there are clearly other devs out there that should be making a living out of their work.
Allowing this dev to get paid, while banning other from freely asking for donations to continue, is clearly double-standard behavior.
No wonder why devs start leaving XDA.
Why do you keep saying XDA "allowed" joshuous to get paid? The donations took place off of XDA and any donation requests on XDA were promptly removed.
The rules were upheld and the users who saw value in VertexOS donated elsewhere. I'm not sure why you alone are against this.
gordito_gr said:
I just hope you change the rules, because there are clearly other devs out there that should be making a living out of their work.
Allowing this dev to get paid, while banning other from freely asking for donations to continue, is clearly double-standard behavior.
No wonder why devs start leaving XDA.
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Click to collapse
Actually Devs start leaving XDA because of people like you keep populating the threads with nothing but nonsense. Absolute nonsense. You just cripple the threads with such replies. And where on God's Earth did Joshuous ask his users to donate him to continue development ? I have said it before numerous times and will say it again, the campaign was raised by one of the users and not him. And when ME took down the link, we moved the discussion to somewhere else out of XDA's boundaries. What the bloody heck is wrong with that? If you don't like what you see, clear the bloody way for more useful posts! Any other comments on that means that you are nothing but a troll. Not even a guy with single digit IQ level would be that stubborn and fail to understand outright facts.
P.S. stop with the "XDA is helping him" part, coz that is even more embarrassing for you.
Absolutely embarrassing response.
Lock this thread and change the rules already, there are devs out there that deserve to get paid
gordito_gr said:
I just hope you change the rules, because there are clearly other devs out there that should be making a living out of their work.
Allowing this dev to get paid, while banning other from freely asking for donations to continue, is clearly double-standard behavior.
No wonder why devs start leaving XDA.
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Click to collapse
Do you get your jollies over ridiculing other devs? Your the type that make devs want to quit. I've seen it happen all across this forum. Josh is one of the best devs out there along with SultanXDA, Maxwen, etc...
Nowhere did Josh ask for donations to keep on developing. WE AS THE COMMUNITY WHO USE AND HAVE USED THIS ROM DONATED so that development could continue. You just keep digging a bigger hole for yourself.
The only embarassing responses are yours.
You poke at the bear and you're gonna get bitten.
Your arrogance is showing, big time. I suggest you quit while you're ahead.
Mine and the rest of XDA's tolerance has shortened for the likes of you.
gordito_gr said:
Absolutely embarrassing response.
Lock this thread and change the rules already, there are devs out there that deserve to get paid
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And as far as I can work out, Josh and Zach are amongst the first of these Devs.
Could you please zip it and clear the area? If anyone is making people leave XDA - it is YOU. and only YOU! No one else. Not Josh, not Zach. YOU.
Just take a look at what have you done? You crippled two threads with your rude posts and useless futile discussions. I think suffering with pneumonia would be more tolerable than replying to your pathetic posts.
As I've said... Don't post here. This guy doesn't understand the sense of a community. I still hope this guy gets banned as a statement from XDA.
It would be time to protect devs and not such user, who has no value to this community. I've never seen him to help or support development in any way.
With this post he blames the mod, who already handled this topic, Josh as Dev and the whole community, who's trying to help and support each other.
And just to say. I've donated to this campaign on a free basis. And what I do with my money, that's my thing. Do you believe you can decide, what people are doing with their money ... You are simple-minded and conceited. If you think another Dev should receive a donation... Than donate. I believe you've never donated more than 1 dollar to any of them. So just let others do, what they want and mind your own business.
gordito_gr said:
The dev who asked for money is @joshuous (Oneplus 3 & 3T dev) and the moderator who helped is @Magnum_Enforcer.. and possibly @Sam Nakamura
A simple timeline of things:
1) Dev's rom (VertexOS) didnt have an update since September
2) "Suddenly" dev breaks his phone, and asks for donations
3) @Magnum_Enforcer deletes the message, and reminds him of rules
4) Dev says he wont continue development without a phone
5) Another user posts a link with a used phone at 200$ (i think from Swappa) and prompts other users to donate, many users agree
6) Users donate to the dev, dev thanks users for donations and says he will continue development .
Of course the majority of messages got deleted eventually by @Magnum_Enforcer (or maybe @Sam Nakamura)
So my question is Are devs allowed to ask for users to donate for a phone so they can continue development?
If this is not the right place to post this, please redirect me to the right thread
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have looked into this and absolutely no rules have been violated.
8. Donations.
As a user, you're allowed to ask for donations in your signature as a thank you for your hard work, however donations up front are not allowed. This forum is about sharing and not about getting paid to do something... that is what your job is for.
The developer never demanded donations. The community rallied to help at their own free will.
Thread closed.