For progress on the development of a gamepad for blackstone please go to the end of the thread.
was pondering the problem of playing non-touchscreen games on the hd and the lack of control options.
In a basic form what is needed is 8 way direction control and a number of buttons that can be pressed simultaneously:
There are three options that I think are worth investigating:
1) general g pad controls simulated by g sensor plus additional buttons created on a SIP or shell for the games.
2) a software shell that places a touchscreen dpad on one side of the landscape screen and have the light sensor and front camera on the other side as buttons. A keypress would be simulated when the ssensor is covered by a finger. Perhaps the back camera too? This would allow many games to be played, I think.
3) Calculated multitouch. When a resistive screen is multitouched I think this produces an intermediate result between the two touches.
If you created a shell that had precise positions of all the buttons worked out multitouches could be mathematically calculated and then sent as simulated keypresses... n effect creating a virtual and invisible keypad in the middle that only becomes active when more than one button is pressed.
For example pressing up and the (a) button creates a virtual touch in the red circles etc.
If actual touches are intercepted and only virtual touches sent as keypresses this could also work.
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My question is for the technical people out there who know much more about this device than me... is there any obvious reason you can see that one or all of these methods would not work?
Theoretically combinations could allow for great flexibility... for example - in a first person shooter - look direction could be controlled by the g sensor, actual body direction controlled by a virtual d pad and firing and jumping by simulated key presses.
Or in a driving simulator left right accelerate and brake could be controlled by the g sensor and a gearstick and other controls by virtual buttons.
Very versatile.
I'm working on it
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=3373604&postcount=19
The current version has a fully functional dpad and mouse.
I'm intending to make a specialised version for gaming, with just a dpad and maybe a couple of "A" and "B" type action buttons, probably customisable.
V
Hey, this sounds really awesome! Keep it up!
Anyway all that games are 640x480 at most so we have 160 pixels to put software DPAD for playing them (instead of doing scaling) and I think that in the future when 800x480 games will come out there will be better solution to play those games . All we need is someone who is gonna write the codes for that software DPAD to fill rest of the screen.
This is my point... a solution to access the many great vga games. However the control system is problematic... hence this post to determine the best solution. A standard sip will not do.
vijay555 said:
I'm working on it
The current version has a fully functional dpad and mouse.
I'm intending to make a specialised version for gaming, with just a dpad and maybe a couple of "A" and "B" type action buttons, probably customisable.
V
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Looks great, mate. For your gaming version will it integrate with wvgafix?
vijay555, I may have just fell in love with you! We're getting closer and closer to being able to play emulator games, flash games, and all sorts of other games! Wheee!
Kizmet said:
Looks great, mate. For your gaming version will it integrate with wvgafix?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It would definitely be cool if that black space at the bottom that's not used when switching to VGA/QVGA could be used by the pad.
Just out of curiosity, vijay, does the app you're working on simulate multi-touch like Kizmet is suggesting here? (Kudos to you, Kizmet, for illustrating this idea so wonderfully by the way!)
I'm investigating WVGAFix right now - I've been out of the scene for a while, and so much new stuff has come out, so it's the first time I've seen this app.
I currently use a different solution which achieves a similar result to WVGAFix, but in a different way. When VJVirtualMouseWinFX loads, the screen will shrink up to make space for my control zone, in a similar way to WVGAFix.
However, WVGAFix is very interesting, and possibly a better solution for fullscreen games, but it may interfere with receiving "mouse clicks" in the area of the screen that is made black, as that black area doesn't "exist" as far as the OS is concerned.
Another problem is that WVGAFix won't work neatly with landscape orientations - unless you really want the DPAD control zone to be stuck on the right of the screen while playing in landscape. As I said elsewhere, I'm investigating some other neater layouts when in landscape.
I may try to find a neat hybrid solution between WVGAFix and my method.
The multitouch concept IS incorporated in another version - a dpad only version specialised for games (as you want more space so you don't accidentally click the mouse).
The multitouch DOES work, but is not as comprehensive as the recent G1 hack for Android multitouch (well, as far as I know, I don't have a G1). Calculated multitouch on Windows Mobile works in some situations, but for instance the iPhone "pinch" gesture cannot be well emulated. However, "pinching" with one finger while leaving the other one still DOES work, so multitouch is about 80% functional.
Also, simultaneously rotating two digits around a static centre point (eg Minority Report) also doesn't work well, but that's not a very comfortable gesture anyway!
V
vijay555 said:
I'm investigating WVGAFix right now - I've been out of the scene for a while, and so much new stuff has come out, so it's the first time I've seen this app.
I currently use a different solution which achieves a similar result to WVGAFix, but in a different way. When VJVirtualMouseWinFX loads, the screen will shrink up to make space for my control zone, in a similar way to WVGAFix.
However, WVGAFix is very interesting, and possibly a better solution for fullscreen games, but it may interfere with receiving "mouse clicks" in the area of the screen that is made black, as that black area doesn't "exist" as far as the OS is concerned.
Another problem is that WVGAFix won't work neatly with landscape orientations - unless you really want the DPAD control zone to be stuck on the right of the screen while playing in landscape. As I said elsewhere, I'm investigating some other neater layouts when in landscape.
I may try to find a neat hybrid solution between WVGAFix and my method.
The multitouch concept IS incorporated in another version - a dpad only version specialised for games (as you want more space so you don't accidentally click the mouse).
The multitouch DOES work, but is not as comprehensive as the recent G1 hack for Android multitouch (well, as far as I know, I don't have a G1). Calculated multitouch on Windows Mobile works in some situations, but for instance the iPhone "pinch" gesture cannot be well emulated. However, "pinching" with one finger while leaving the other one still DOES work, so multitouch is about 80% functional.
Also, simultaneously rotating two digits around a static centre point (eg Minority Report) also doesn't work well, but that's not a very comfortable gesture anyway!
V
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly... calculated multitouch works on half the distane between the touched points.... a pinch gesture would essentially provide the same result all through the pinch.
But in limited control circumstances it can work to simulate a dpad press and simultaneous firing press.
I think your version of shrinking the screen may actually be more flexible than wvgafix... because it would allow you theoretically to have a shell on either side of a landscape screen.. right?
This is what is needed.. dpad on the left buttons on the right.
The spare space of 160 pixels may not be enough... so if the screen can be shrunk slightly then that may allow for better controls.
Alternatively.. using the sensors (light and camera) as simultaneous buttons would give two available buttons with very little coding. But the question is how much battery does that drain and are the sensors sensitive enough?
Kizmet: yes exactly re the pinch.
WVGAFix's solution is good for making other software compatible with WVGA, but my solution is generally compatible with normal Windows Mobile software.
I think regarding fullscreen games, I envisage placing a dpad on one side of the screen, the A and B buttons on the other in the bottom corner, and these can be physically overlaid over whatever's on the screen. I think that feels quite comfortable.
V
that sounds good. That may clash with some games and obscure something, though... perhaps semi-transparent controls may work?
@Kizmet: I have considered semi transparent, but it's a big amount of work.
Windows Mobile doesn't support layered/alpha blended windows well, so the blending has to be done manually. This is CPU intensive, and so is likely to slow the game down.
And even then, it's not very easy to achieve - VJVirtualMouseWinFX supported an alpha blended mouse pointer, but it was too crufty to rely on, and not worth the work, so I removed this feature.
And of course - if your thumbs are covering the control pads, you can't see through them anyway on to the screen!
I'll have to test how well, if at all, this can be achieved on a fullscreen high motion game.
I have some other ideas how to implement the control mechanism, but I think we should all think of any other ideas of how to implement it.
Personally, I'd rather lose say a 100x100 pixel square in each corner, than 100x480 rectangle on the left and right of the screen, so I think an overlaid control pad in each corner makes most sense.
Unfortunately this screenshot doesn't demonstrate this well, but it's a mockup to give you an idea of what I'm thinking.
V
I'm a little confused. If we had a game that would normally take up all 800x480 of the screen are you talking about keeping the game that size and then placing the controls on top of it (which would hide the image behind the controls) or are you saying you can shrink the application's display giving unused screen space on either side that can be used for the controls?
Keeping in mind a game controller that would have a d-pad and left bumper on the left side, and 4 buttons and a right bumper on the right side I would say the shrunken display in landscape would be great.
Too bad that transparent controls wouldn't work though since there's some wasted screen space. Although that's not a concern I suppose since most games/emulators/etc wouldn't use the full screen anyhow.
@sschrupp: obviously if all games are made in WVGA, then that would be great, but as some games are only designed to support a maximum of VGA, it means that we have blank space anyway, that's being wasted.
The suggestion is to find a way to make use of the blank screen, perhaps by placing the controls in the blank areas.
However, what I'm saying, is that whether the game is QVGA, VGA or WVGA, somehow, if you want to emulate a DPAD etc over the game, it needs to occupy some screen space, obviously.
Whether we want to overlay those controls on top of the full screen game, obscurring the screen underneath, or shrink the game screen, either way we have to live with some inconvenience.
Personally, given as many games will either be VGA, or will have some "chrome" already, ie will already have some non game space on screen, personally I think we just stick the dpad controls in some definable position on screen and hope we're not covering much (if any) of the actual game.
V
sschrupp said:
I'm a little confused. If we had a game that would normally take up all 800x480 of the screen are you talking about keeping the game that size and then placing the controls on top of it (which would hide the image behind the controls) or are you saying you can shrink the application's display giving unused screen space on either side that can be used for the controls?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In this instance we don't need to worry about games that are already 800x480 - they will have been designed for devices with predominant touchscreens... so the control system will be part of the game. But don't hold your breath for too many releases like that. Without buttons the type of games available is limited.
The need arises to allow some way for the hd to be able to play games already available for similar devices - these are typically in vga 640x480 but need hardware keys the blackstone doesn't have.
So the question is how do we best utilize the screen space and how do we best emulate buttons?
Answer these two questions without slowing down the performance and then you will have the killer shell that will make the blackstone an awesome gaming machine as well as multimedia device.
Someone needs to make something like this for the Touch HD...
http://www.icontrolpad.com/
vijay555 said:
@Kizmet: I have considered semi transparent, but it's a big amount of work.
Windows Mobile doesn't support layered/alpha blended windows well, so the blending has to be done manually. This is CPU intensive, and so is likely to slow the game down.
And even then, it's not very easy to achieve - VJVirtualMouseWinFX supported an alpha blended mouse pointer, but it was too crufty to rely on, and not worth the work, so I removed this feature.
And of course - if your thumbs are covering the control pads, you can't see through them anyway on to the screen!
I'll have to test how well, if at all, this can be achieved on a fullscreen high motion game.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Although I think blended buttons would be lovely to look at.. as you say it's not very practical.
The essence is speed here, I think. Speed and simplicity.
I have some other ideas how to implement the control mechanism, but I think we should all think of any other ideas of how to implement it.
Personally, I'd rather lose say a 100x100 pixel square in each corner, than 100x480 rectangle on the left and right of the screen, so I think an overlaid control pad in each corner makes most sense.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think we're just going to need more space than that.
The control can't be too small otherwise it will be fiddly and hard to use.
I did a couple of mock ups of two of the alternatives:
Calculated Multitouch:
A shell program that places a bar of 100 px on the left and 60px on the right... with buttons set onto it.
Multitouches can be calculated and only touches registering at positions 1,2 or 3 (for example) would be sent to the program by the shell as button presses.
An 8 way controller with 2 buttons would need 16 virtual centre points to be calculated (with some margin for error) they must not overlap but they can be tight against each other as they will not be used.
Although it's called calculated - there is actually no need for calculation on the fly - positons would be stored in a simple look-up table. And thus it could be coded to be fast!
It's also very flexible since there is theroretically no reason you couldn't have more buttons.
However only two touches can be registered simultaneously.
Sensor Method
This is more of a quick fix to me since it only allows for two buttons... but if the light sensor and camera are up to it this is a faster and easier method:
The control centre on the left is 160 px wide and the two sensors held to the right.
Covering a sensor with a fingertip would register as a button press as would covering the camera.
The question here is can the light sensor be polled fast enough? Does it drain battery too fast and is it sensitive enough?
Same q's for the front camera... in fact the back camera could also be used if needed.
This method is slightly less flexible but potentially faster and more accurate. The larger dpad this allows would be better for blokes with large fingers, like me.
Now.. take either of these solutions and throw in a gsensor button simulator that calibrates on touching the d pad and then gives you 4 more directions with accelerations and you have a powerful game control system. Powerful enough to handle complex games like driving/air sims and first person shooters.
Jim_Fear said:
Someone needs to make something like this for the Touch HD...
http://www.icontrolpad.com/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah they are cool.. I saw one shaped like a joypad with a hole perfect for the iphone in it.
A software solution is going to becheaper and more practical, though.
I'm assuming that the zoom bar is just an extension of the resistive touch screen beyond the visible screen, so what are the chances someone will make a program/hack that will let you use it for other functions, like a dpad and a mouse?
TD2 users already have it sort of working as a scroll wheel.
I've been watching the M900 on Pocketnow, and while I'm not swayed, the potential of the navigation functions of the biosensor do wow me. It'd be a welcome addition I think. I'm new to xda-dev, but whenever I've come across the name/link, it's always with effusive praise and admiration. I figure if anyone will, it will be someone here.
Bump for this one!!
As soon as I saw the zoom bar on the TD2 and TP2 and the limited functionality of usage only in messaging, web browsers and pictures, it just screamed hack hack hack
I was also thinking gestures like the Palm Pre...
ooooh... I'm intrigued! I'd like to see what some developers can put together for this. That would be a sweet feature to hack.
evojulz said:
As soon as I saw the zoom bar on the TD2 and TP2 and the limited functionality of usage only in messaging, web browsers and pictures, it just screamed hack hack hack
I was also thinking gestures like the Palm Pre...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed. The zoom bar seemed like a good idea when I first read about it, given the multitouch zooming was a no go with the resistive screen. But then in the reviews, it just seemed so under-utilized.
I'd love to have a configuration utility that let you use it in different ways in different applications, kind of like some screen rotating apps let you set up rotation differently for different apps.
Or like the Jog Dial on the hermes. (only wished the TP2 had that, and it would have been perfect. One handed control of the device...). But it will have to be pretty precise, and it isn't yet.
If it can register touch pressure (tapping) I would like 2 see 4 sectors (up down left right)
quarintus said:
Or like the Jog Dial on the hermes. (only wished the TP2 had that, and it would have been perfect. One handed control of the device...). But it will have to be pretty precise, and it isn't yet.
If it can register touch pressure (tapping) I would like 2 see 4 sectors (up down left right)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
D2 Zoombar as buttons request asks for 3 buttons. Hopefully someone will do more.
Would LOVE to see 3 or 4 buttons on the zoom bar!!
(And maybe sliding button 1 to the right or button 4 to the left still means scrolling)
Bright.Light said:
Would LOVE to see 3 or 4 buttons on the zoom bar!!
(And maybe sliding button 1 to the right or button 4 to the left still means scrolling)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The main screen can tell the difference between a press and a flick, so I imagine the zoom bar could have assigned buttons and still scroll.
Hi All
For my TP2, i'd really like to have Zoom Bar that zooms ....everything!!
I would like to just zoom the screen (any screen) to a larger size. I did kinda think (or at least hope) that it was what it was going to do anyway, not just zooming pictures, browser etc.
I would like the simple (??) funtion of being able to zoom any app, any screen, anything - to be able to read stuff maybe a little more easier.
I do use glasses for reading only and it is a real drag to have to get them out to read a text clearly, or see whose calling or just to get a better look in daylight etc.
A zoom 'anything' or 'any screen' would be really awesome and a supremely useful utilisation of something that is already there. Then you couild just drag the screen around to get to what you want to see better (yes, just like a picture, so basically i guess, the current screen becomes like a picture).
The other ideas of buttons, d pads and so on all sound great too, but this would probably benefit so many people get better use out of their devices.
I wonder if it can be done...????
Cheers and happy TP2ing.
Jabberoo
jabberoo said:
I would like to just zoom the screen (any screen) to a larger size. I did kinda think (or at least hope) that it was what it was going to do anyway, not just zooming pictures, browser etc.
I would like the simple (??) funtion of being able to zoom any app, any screen, anything - to be able to read stuff maybe a little more easier.
I do use glasses for reading only and it is a real drag to have to get them out to read a text clearly, or see whose calling or just to get a better look in daylight etc.
A zoom 'anything' or 'any screen' would be really awesome and a supremely useful utilisation of something that is already there. Then you couild just drag the screen around to get to what you want to see better (yes, just like a picture, so basically i guess, the current screen becomes like a picture).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Probably better than just magnifying the screen, for readability in text heavy apps at least, would be setting font sizes to the zoom bar--zoom up, Font Sizes get larger, zoom down, they get smaller. I think that might actually be enabled in some text apps already, but I'm not sure. The touchpad on my Acer Aspire One does this in some word processors.
For things like Caller ID, a screen magnifier would be needed. I'm guessing you'd need a resident program to be able to do this anywhere and everywhere.
Thx fortunz
All true, but wouldn't the simple 'magnify the whole screen' thing be a really (really) good thing to have - and logical too. Just an extension of the way it works for images. Just seems like something that it should do.
I did notice on the HTC Manila 2.5 demo video from Germany, in the Settings area, under 'Other', there was a setting for 'HTC Magnify'.
Uncertain of any further details, but it could be just what i am talking about, maybe!
Cheers to all
Jabberoo
jabberoo said:
Thx fortunz
All true, but wouldn't the simple 'magnify the whole screen' thing be a really (really) good thing to have - and logical too.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't disagree at all.
zoom as scroll and on manila start screen not only inside
I just wish the zoom ball zommed in on pictures (going towards center of picture) rather than how it works in opera (the upper left corner)
Bump...
Anybody anything?
i would be interested to know if this is possible too.
I would luv the zoom bar to wash my car and mow the lawns for me... any chance?
....LOL....
Yeah, the zoom bar is really under-utilized. I often forget it's there and go to screen -> larger text to increase my fonts... Guess it's because it only works in a few apps. Without realizing, I've gone to settings -> screens before I realize I have a zoom bar...
Would love to see some gurus here hack this to a mini d-pad, or at least and up/down arrow. Currently, I have the vol up/down to do this using AEB.
i agree with all of these .. we need a genius programmer to make some kind of super aeb where you could have different button profiles and set a shortcut to profiles on the homescreen .. my perfect setup would be to have zoom be able to switch open applications and somehow map the back conference mute thing to play/pause in music player .. or have zoom button be able to switch songs for you (like with screen off/lock on) and hold for running applications list ... then have it all skinned pretty like some translucent palm pre thing .... lol .. just dreaming..
games
they can also utilize in racing games like as steering wheel instead of touching the screen