I'm not entirely sure which forum would be most appropriate to post this under, but this seems like a decent candidate, so I'm starting here. If this would fit better somewhere else, please feel to redirect me, and/or even move the thread if appropriate. I think I've read all the appropriate sticky threads et cetera, but if I do make / am making a faux pas, please let me know.
As you're probably aware (https://www.xda-developers.com/t-mobile-att-require-volte-phone-calls-shut-down-3g/), T-Mobile is expected to shut down its non-VoLTE voice service in January of 2021. As a result, it's imperative for anyone who gets phone service through them to have a phone with working VoLTE support before that point. As that includes me, I've been looking into that.
I currently have a Samsung Galaxy S5, purchased through T-Mobile back in 2015 (if I'm not mistaken, it's a SM-G900T). There seem to be fairly solid statements that this model does support VoLTE under the stock ROM, and indeed T-Mobile support seems to think that it should be working.
I run LineageOS - specifically klte, which matches that model. I'm currently on the August 30th, 2020 "nightly" build of version 16.0 (which was the latest available for that model as of earlier today), on top of TWRP 3.3.1 (ditto). I only recently upgraded from TWRP 2.8.7 and (IIRC) LineageOS 14.1, which I'd been running since sometime in 2017 for reasons that are out of scope but I can describe briefly if desired. The upgrade was specifically in hopes that newer LineageOS would have VoLTE support options which the earlier version did not, but that seems to have been a futile hope.
After some fairly extensive digging (mostly online, but with some poking around on my own device and in my own backups et cetera), I've concluded that while it is theoretically possible to have VoLTE support on this device under LineageOS, it's likely to be effectively impossible in practice. Threads such as https://forum.xda-developers.com/galaxy-s5/devs-only/port-ims-manager-to-klte-t3551084 (not the only place I've looked, but probably the last before giving up) seem to indicate that the only way to get it to work - short of reverse engineering enough of the underlying system to be able to reimplement Samsung's closed IMS implementation for that model - would be to find a Galaxy S5 with the stock ROM and working VoLTE, and copy the appropriate files out of that and into the correct places on the LineageOS-based version of the system.
I thought I'd kept a backup of the stock ROM which my S5 came with, but I haven't managed to find any sign of it in my archives. I don't think I have any other way to get at the correct files, never mind figure out where they need to go and get them there; I certainly couldn't justify buying another S5 just to be able to extract the stock ROM.
As linked from the thread referenced above, there do appear to be, or have been, other custom ROMs for the Galaxy S5 which include - or included - VoLTE support. However, I'm otherwise quite happy with LineageOS, and don't want to switch to another custom ROM line - especially since I want to avoid the data loss that would come with wiping my phone to install another ROM, unless there's absolutely no way to avoid it.
Are there any prospects for my being able to get VoLTE working on this phone under LineageOS? If so, what would I need to do to manage that, within the January deadline?
If not, or if what prospects there are don't pan out, I'm going to need to acquire a new smartphone which will be able to have VoLTE under LineageOS, and preferably one which will at least approximate meeting the other criteria which led me to select the Galaxy S5 in the first place and stick with it all this time. In particular, A: I all but insist on a conveniently user-swappable battery (I carry at least one fully-charged spare in my back pocket at all times), not so much for field battery life extension as to be able to replace the battery rather than the phone when the battery inevitably bloats and dies (I'm on something like my seventh battery for this S5), B: I really like having separate dedicated "home", "back", and (for lack of a better term) "active applications list" buttons, and the only model I know for sure has them is the S5 itself, and C: I very much want to have a traditional headphone jack. Expandable storage, in the form of a suitable SD-card slot, would also be nice but is not strictly required.
What models can I expect to be able to get VoLTE working on under LineageOS, with good support in other regards, within that January deadline? The model-support information I've been able to find in searching thus far does not seem to provide any clear indication on this point.
I don't expect recommendations on what smartphone models will be able to also meet my other criteria, although of course it would be nice; that would probably fit better under the "what phone should I buy next?" thread over in General Q&A.
No chance for adding volte. It's utopic to believe you could eben keep you phone setup.
You don't share your reason for using lineageOS. If it's about avoiding preinstalled apps, you can instead debloat stock rom.
kurtn said:
No chance for adding volte. It's utopic to believe you could eben keep you phone setup.
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I was afraid of that, but I did still have some hope.
Is that klte/S5-specific, or is it a more general statement about LineageOS at large, which holds true regardless of phone model?
If the latter, then LineageOS is soon to become unusable for anyone with T-Mobile service, which seems like a major problem that people would already be working actively to try to correct. (I also think I heard that other providers may make a similar change, which would make the problem more widespread; I specifically half-remember articles about AT&T in that regard. No concrete backup for that at the moment, though.)
If the former, then what phone models are there for which VoLTE does or can readily be made to work under LineageOS?
kurtn said:
You don't share your reason for using lineageOS. If it's about avoiding preinstalled apps, you can instead debloat stock rom.
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I'm a little surprised that the reasons would even be asked about, given that this is a LineageOS-specific forum; I wouldn't expect the people here to be up for directing people away from LineageOS to other ROMs.
My original impetus for using LineageOS (at the time, CyanogenMod) was simply one of principle about avoiding proprietary software and vendor lock-in/lockdown/et cetera. I also like the ability to control updates on my own, both in terms of being able to determine when I update to a new version and of being able to continue to get updates independent of whether the manufacturer/carrier/etc. continues to release them.
Avoiding preinstalled apps is certainly one aspect of it, but it's by no means the only one.
I also doubt that I could simply debloat the stock ROM, for the simple reason that I don't think I *have* the stock ROM - or if I do, it's years out of date (as I said, 2015). I left a search running overnight, and on that basis have managed to find the backup copy of the stock image that was on the phone when I received it, but unless trying to extract the necessary stack components for VoLTE support from it might be viable after all I don't know how useful that will turn out to be.
(I'm probably going to invest some time into looking into that today, anyway, but I don't really expect to get any results out of it.)
Alias Bongo said:
I was afraid of that, but I did still have some hope.
Is that klte/S5-specific, or is it a more general statement about LineageOS at large, which holds true regardless of phone model?
If the latter, then LineageOS is soon to become unusable for anyone with T-Mobile service, which seems like a major problem that people would already be working actively to try to correct. (I also think I heard that other providers may make a similar change, which would make the problem more widespread; I specifically half-remember articles about AT&T in that regard. No concrete backup for that at the moment, though.)
If the former, then what phone models are there for which VoLTE does or can readily be made to work under LineageOS?
I'm a little surprised that the reasons would even be asked about, given that this is a LineageOS-specific forum; I wouldn't expect the people here to be up for directing people away from LineageOS to other ROMs.
My original impetus for using LineageOS (at the time, CyanogenMod) was simply one of principle about avoiding proprietary software and vendor lock-in/lockdown/et cetera. I also like the ability to control updates on my own, both in terms of being able to determine when I update to a new version and of being able to continue to get updates independent of whether the manufacturer/carrier/etc. continues to release them.
Avoiding preinstalled apps is certainly one aspect of it, but it's by no means the only one.
I also doubt that I could simply debloat the stock ROM, for the simple reason that I don't think I *have* the stock ROM - or if I do, it's years out of date (as I said, 2015). I left a search running overnight, and on that basis have managed to find the backup copy of the stock image that was on the phone when I received it, but unless trying to extract the necessary stack components for VoLTE support from it might be viable after all I don't know how useful that will turn out to be.
(I'm probably going to invest some time into looking into that today, anyway, but I don't really expect to get any results out of it.)
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I think your chances for volte are better if you change from samsung to motorola.
kurtn said:
I think your chances for volte are better if you change from samsung to motorola.
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That's unfortunately fairly vague, as a basis for going out and buying a smartphone.
What I'm looking for in terms of "VoLTE does or can readily be made to work under LineageOS" is something for which a statement like one of the following can be made:
"Yes, VoLTE works on this model under LineageOS out of the box; you don't need to do anything special to get it working, just flash LineageOS and go."
"Yes, it's possible to get VoLTE working on this model under LineageOS; here's what you need to do to get it working, beyond just flashing LineageOS."
Do you know of any specific smartphone models for which you can make one of those statements?
While I'm not against investigating and experimenting and trying things out to get things to work, and in fact sometimes that can even be fun, I do not want to do that in a production environment - and I'm under deadline (albeit with a few months to go), with limited resources for experimenting (in the form of money to buy smartphones which might work), before this becomes a critical production environment.
(Also, I've found what look like IMS-related files in the backup copy of the stock ROM, which don't seem to exist in the LineageOS that's currently running on my phone. Depending on what they look like on further examination, I may try pulling them in and seeing if anything changes; worst-case scenario, I should just have to boot to recovery and restore a backup.)
Alias Bongo said:
That's unfortunately fairly vague, as a basis for going out and buying a smartphone.
What I'm looking for in terms of "VoLTE does or can readily be made to work under LineageOS" is something for which a statement like one of the following can be made:
"Yes, VoLTE works on this model under LineageOS out of the box; you don't need to do anything special to get it working, just flash LineageOS and go."
"Yes, it's possible to get VoLTE working on this model under LineageOS; here's what you need to do to get it working, beyond just flashing LineageOS."
Do you know of any specific smartphone models for which you can make one of those statements?
While I'm not against investigating and experimenting and trying things out to get things to work, and in fact sometimes that can even be fun, I do not want to do that in a production environment - and I'm under deadline (albeit with a few months to go), with limited resources for experimenting (in the form of money to buy smartphones which might work), before this becomes a critical production environment.
(Also, I've found what look like IMS-related files in the backup copy of the stock ROM, which don't seem to exist in the LineageOS that's currently running on my phone. Depending on what they look like on further examination, I may try pulling them in and seeing if anything changes; worst-case scenario, I should just have to boot to recovery and restore a backup.)
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Yes. Moto e2 lte surnia has volte in LineageOS out of the box.
kurtn said:
Yes. Moto e2 lte surnia has volte in LineageOS out of the box.
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Thanks! I'll investigate that option, then, in addition to any others that present themselves.
Alias Bongo said:
(Also, I've found what look like IMS-related files in the backup copy of the stock ROM, which don't seem to exist in the LineageOS that's currently running on my phone. Depending on what they look like on further examination, I may try pulling them in and seeing if anything changes; worst-case scenario, I should just have to boot to recovery and restore a backup.)
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Unsurprisingly, it doesn't seem to be that simple. The files involved in this are themselves few enough, and most although not all of them don't seem to exist in the currently-running image, so they can be copied in without further ado - but there are enough references to them in other files, which either *do* exist (and so would need to be edited, in a way that leaves things compatible with both systems) or seem likely to themselves (need to) be referenced elsewhere, that the whole thing turns into a mess of cascading complexity.
Short of input from someone with expertise on IMS/VoLTE implementation from some other model, I suspect this won't turn out to be a viable avenue to pursue, at least not unless and until I have my hands on a Galaxy S5 which isn't my production phone and as such can be used for experimentation. Even then, I'll probably need to basically build my own custom ROM (or custom local build of LineageOS, at least) rather than just inserting files into a system built from an existing one.
I've looked briefly into the Moto E2, and while it does look like the newest/final models of it would support VoLTE in a way that LineageOS would plausibly be able to handle, it's also at least nearly as old as the S5 and is less capable and desirable in other ways. It'd be better than nothing, but not something I would prefer as my first choice.
I'm hoping that other people chime in with more models to suggest. As this is going to become increasingly important as more carriers shut down their 3G/2G networks, and VoLTE becomes the only way to do voice calling, I'd ideally like to see a page - possibly this thread, possibly another one, possibly a Wiki page - with as comprehensive a listing of phone models which *are* known to have working VoLTE support under LineageOS (and/or possibly other non-stock ROMs) as possible, including links to any necessary how-to directions per model and notes on any special criteria (e.g., carrier-specific support or support differences between regions or the like). I hoped something like that would already exist, given the apparent upcoming VoLTEpocalypse - but as it doesn't seem to (or at least I haven't managed to find one thus far), it wouldn't hurt to start trying to create one.
My understanding is that Verizon is apparently going to make the "VoLTE mandatory" transition in January, much the same as T-Mobile, and AT&T is planning to do it sometime in 2022. With Sprint out of the picture after the T-Mobile merger, that's basically all of the major US wireless carriers that I'm aware of, so this will be universal (at least in the USA) before too very long. Some amount of preparation to make sure the custom-ROM field will remain viable past that point would seem appropriate; I'm surprised by how little activity in that area I've been able to find thus far.
Alias Bongo said:
Unsurprisingly, it doesn't seem to be that simple. The files involved in this are themselves few enough, and most although not all of them don't seem to exist in the currently-running image, so they can be copied in without further ado - but there are enough references to them in other files, which either *do* exist (and so would need to be edited, in a way that leaves things compatible with both systems) or seem likely to themselves (need to) be referenced elsewhere, that the whole thing turns into a mess of cascading complexity.
Short of input from someone with expertise on IMS/VoLTE implementation from some other model, I suspect this won't turn out to be a viable avenue to pursue, at least not unless and until I have my hands on a Galaxy S5 which isn't my production phone and as such can be used for experimentation. Even then, I'll probably need to basically build my own custom ROM (or custom local build of LineageOS, at least) rather than just inserting files into a system built from an existing one.
I've looked briefly into the Moto E2, and while it does look like the newest/final models of it would support VoLTE in a way that LineageOS would plausibly be able to handle, it's also at least nearly as old as the S5 and is less capable and desirable in other ways. It'd be better than nothing, but not something I would prefer as my first choice.
I'm hoping that other people chime in with more models to suggest. As this is going to become increasingly important as more carriers shut down their 3G/2G networks, and VoLTE becomes the only way to do voice calling, I'd ideally like to see a page - possibly this thread, possibly another one, possibly a Wiki page - with as comprehensive a listing of phone models which *are* known to have working VoLTE support under LineageOS (and/or possibly other non-stock ROMs) as possible, including links to any necessary how-to directions per model and notes on any special criteria (e.g., carrier-specific support or support differences between regions or the like). I hoped something like that would already exist, given the apparent upcoming VoLTEpocalypse - but as it doesn't seem to (or at least I haven't managed to find one thus far), it wouldn't hurt to start trying to create one.
My understanding is that Verizon is apparently going to make the "VoLTE mandatory" transition in January, much the same as T-Mobile, and AT&T is planning to do it sometime in 2022. With Sprint out of the picture after the T-Mobile merger, that's basically all of the major US wireless carriers that I'm aware of, so this will be universal (at least in the USA) before too very long. Some amount of preparation to make sure the custom-ROM field will remain viable past that point would seem appropriate; I'm surprised by how little activity in that area I've been able to find thus far.
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Totally agree, I'm surprised this news hasn't gotten more attention in the community. First came to mind, "ah crap, no more custom roms." (perse).
I started a thread on this on the LG v50 forums to raise awareness, hopefully there can be workarounds:
https://forum.xda-developers.com/v50-thinq/help/att-t-mobile-to-off-3g-networks-disable-t4163491
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By forcing VOLTE, this can potentially lock out some unlocked phones and also exclude custom roms, forcing users to buy carrier branded phones. In addition, shutting down 3G and forcing 4G VOLTE will ensure that lots of customers upgrade/buy new phones when their current phone may be perfectly fine otherwise(unnecessary costs and more perfectly working phones in the land fill in vain).
IIRC, you could use a stock from on your S5 and just remove the bad parts. It's no substitute for AOSP but you got to do what you got to do. Plus it's free. The stock files should be available and you can use recovery to image your phone so you don't lose your data. That is the route I would go and can't really do on my S3.
Other phone selections are looking GRIM in terms of removable batteries, reasonable size, etc. You can look to the V20 or G5 from LG but you will have to do the above process and that is almost where I'm at. Poked and prodded rom isn't the end, I did it for years on my gS2 when AOSP couldn't get HW fully functional.
Motorola has models that do work but they are mostly sealed units and everything is really hard to find as its plastered all over XDA in posts from years ago. Do all rom links even work?
While we were sleeping people got taken over by the machine and the devs didn't know what was coming or couldn't figure out the proprietary implementations.
The question with Tmo is also, is band 12 mandatory or will other phones work on 2 and 4 and volte over that. Nobody has even asked the question. I'm going to try to be safe.
DUP deleted
So odd that such a fatal issue seems to be imminently coming without some progress being made to avert it because unneeded and dangerous 5g is crowding out 2g & 3g. The s5 and note 4 are THE gold standard of excellent screen and hardware and thus the only real choices of replaceable battery phones - the REAL reason that phone mfg force millions of phones to be tossed in the landfills - shame on them! Custom Roms provide extremely important current security updates and allow apks that are updated and no longer work on slightly older android 6 versions (chase, Starbucks, united, etc). Pretty bad to discover after factory resetting a phone that play store won't let you download current or working version.
Perhaps we can crowd fund developers to attack this looming disaster soon?
uds0 said:
So odd that such a fatal issue seems to be imminently coming without some progress being made to avert it because unneeded and dangerous 5g is crowding out 2g & 3g. The s5 and note 4 are THE gold standard of excellent screen and hardware and thus the only real choices of replaceable battery phones - the REAL reason that phone mfg force millions of phones to be tossed in the landfills - shame on them! Custom Roms provide extremely important current security updates and allow apks that are updated and no longer work on slightly older android 6 versions (chase, Starbucks, united, etc). Pretty bad to discover after factory resetting a phone that play store won't let you download current or working version.
Perhaps we can crowd fund developers to attack this looming disaster soon?
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Attack
ＧΛËＬＤＵＶΛＬ (@[email protected])
We're in the process to backport VoLTE support to /e/OS on Samsung Galaxy S9 (Exynos). We're looking for strong expertise here. If you know some true experts in the VoLTE support field, please get in touch! (mailto: [email protected]) #VoLTE #engineering...
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Original Article
BackgroundI don't believe that I need to introduce myself, but if I do my name is P3Droid. I am a phone enthusiast and have been working in the Android platform for 17 months. I have been very lucky in my short time on the Android platform. I think more than anything I have been lucky enough to be in the right places at the right times. The day I first saw and played with the Droid (OG) I thought “that is the ugliest damn phone I've ever played with”. Then I was asked back into the store by my friend (nameless) to get some time with the Android platform and he began to explain to me how open the phone was and how a “smart” person could do anything they wanted to the phone. That turned what I thought was an ugly phone into the sexiest beast ever. I guess that was approximately October of 2009, and I was excited about the possibilities and dove right in without checking the depth of the water.
I spent much of the year on an open phone and an open platform, and sometime in July I picked up a Droid X. I soon found a great bunch of friends and we formed Team Black Hat. Really wanting to break the bootloader, we spent more hours working on it than we did our 9 – 5 jobs. Eventually we came to the conclusion (with help from some unique resources), that we were not going to accomplish our objective. Every so often we still pluck away at it, but we have moved on to other things that will help people enjoy their Droid phones.
Fast forward to October 2010. I'm still in love with the concept of android, and I've done more than my share of developing, themeing, creating ROMS and even hacking. *Having been involved in so many things and having developed some unique contacts, I have been privy to information that is not disseminated to the masses. Some of this information I was asked to sit on. Some information I sat on because I felt it was best to do so for our entire community. You have probably seen me rant on occasion about what I thought the community was doing wrong and causing itself future pain. Each of those days I had received even more disheartening information. So where does this leave me? It leaves me with a difficult choice to make. What to tell, how much to tell, and do I want to give information out that could possible be slightly wrong. I've worked very hard to verify things through multiple sources, when possible, and some other information comes from sources so reliable that I take them at their word.
This brings me up to today. I've tossed and turned regarding how to say this, and how to express all of the information and my feelings in regards to this information. I guess the solution is to just let you all decide for yourselves what you think and what you want to do.
One Shoe Falls
Beginning in July, we (TBH), began hearing things about Motorola working on ways to make rooting the device more difficult. This was going to be done via Google through the kernel. No big deal we thought, the community always finds a way. When Froyo was released and there was no root for some time we became a bit concerned but soon there was a process and even 1-clicks. This was good news and bad news to me, because it simply meant that they would go back to the drawing board and improve upon what they had done.
During this time there were still little rumors here and there about security of devices, and other such things but nothing solid and concrete. Until November.
The Other Shoe Falls
Beginning in October, the information began coming in faster and it had more of a dire ring to it. It was also coming in from multiple sources. I began to rant a little at the state of our community, and that we were the cause of our own woes. So what did I hear?
1. New devices would present challenges for the community that would most likely be insurmountable, and that Motorola specifically – would be impossible to hack the bootloader. Considering we never hacked the previous 3G phones, this was less than encouraging.
2.Locked bootloaders, and phones were not a Motorola-only issue, that the major manufacturers and carriers had agreed this was the best course of action.(see new HTC devices)
3. The driving forces for device lock down was theft of service by rooted users, the return of non-defective devices due to consumer fraud, and the use of non-approved firmware on the networks.
I think I posted my first angry message and tweet about being a responsible community soon after getting this information. I knew the hand writing was on the wall, and we would not be able to stop what was coming, but maybe we could convince them we were not all thieves and cut throats.
Moving along, December marked a low point for me. The information started to firm up, and I was able to verify it through multiple channels. This information made the previous information look like a day in the park. So what was new?
1. Multiple carriers were working collaboratively on a program that would be able to identify rooted users and create a database of their meids.
2. Manufacturers who supply Verizon were baking into the roms new security features:
a. one security feature would identify any phone using a tether program to circumvent paying for tethering services. (check your gingerbread DroidX/Droid2 people and try wireless tether)
b. a second security feature would allow the phone to identify itself to the network if rooted.
c. security item number 2 would be used to track, throttle, even possibly restrict full data usage of these rooted phones.
The Rubber Meets the Road
So, I wish I had more time to have added this to the original post, but writing something like this takes a lot of time and effort to put all the information into context and provide some form of linear progression.
Lets get on with the story. March of this year was a monumental month for me. The information was unsettling and I felt as if we had a gigantic bulls-eye on our backs.
This is what I have heard:
1. The way that they were able to track rooted users is based on pushing updates to phones, and then tracking which meid's did not take the update. There is more to it than this but that is the simple version.
2. More than one major carrier besides Verizon has implemented this program and that all carriers involved had begun tracking rooted phones. All carriers involved were more than pleased with the accuracy of the program.
1. What I was not told is what the carriers intended to do with this information.
3. In new builds the tracking would be built into the firmware and that if a person removed the tracking from the firmware then the phone would not be verified on the network (i.e. your phone could not make phone calls or access data).
4. Google is working with carriers and manufacturers to secure phones, and although Google is not working to end hacking, it is working to secure the kernel so that no future applications can maliciously use exploits to steal end-user information. But in order to gain this level of security this may mean limited chances to root the device. (This item I've been told but not yet able to verify through multiple sources – so take it for what you want)
5. Verizon has successfully used its new programs to throttle data on test devices in accordance with the guidelines of the program.
6. The push is to lock down the devices as tight as can be, but also offer un-lockable devices (Think Nexus S).
The question I've asked is why? Why do all this; why go through so much trouble. The answer I get is a very logical one and one I understand even if I don't like it. It is about the money. With LTE arriving and the higher charges for data and tethering, carriers feel they must bottle up the ability of users to root their device and access this data, circumventing the expensive tethering charges.
What I would like to leave you with is that this is not an initiative unique to Verizon or Motorola, this is industry wide and encompassing many manufacturers.
So what does all this mean? You will need to make your own conjectures about what to think of all of this. But, I think that the rooting, hacking, and modding community - as we know it - is living on borrowed time.
In the final analysis of all this I guess I'll leave you with my feelings:
I will take what comes and turn it into a better brighter day, that is all I can do because I do not control the world.
Disclaimers:
I am intentionally not including any names of sources as they do not want to lose their jobs.
This information is being presented to you as I have received and verified it. *
I only deal with information pertaining to US carriers and have no specific knowledge concerning foreign carriers.
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Thoughts? Is there a future for Rooting?
Serious question, and not one to knock any developer or anyone else, and I am not complaining... But why don't we have more custom ROM's for this device?
I have owned lots of Nexus/Pixel devices in the past, and within a few months of release there were dozens of ROM's available for the device, but for this device there is a couple kernels and a few unofficial or "build it yourself" ROM's and that is it. It just seems very odd that a device so open by design and sold extremely well doesn't have more options. Why?
I admit I haven't had much involvement in the custom ROM community in a few years, and I haven't really felt a need to use a custom ROM in some time as I have been using Moto, Nokia, Nexus, and Pixel devices for the most part for years and just a few tweaks here and there are good enough, but I went to look into other possibilities with my Pixel 3a XL recently and found there just isn't much of anything.
acejavelin said:
Serious question, and not one to knock any developer or anyone else, and I am not complaining... But why don't we have more custom ROM's for this device?
I have owned lots of Nexus/Pixel devices in the past, and within a few months of release there were dozens of ROM's available for the device, but for this device there is a couple kernels and a few unofficial or "build it yourself" ROM's and that is it. It just seems very odd that a device so open by design and sold extremely well doesn't have more options. Why?
I admit I haven't had much involvement in the custom ROM community in a few years, and I haven't really felt a need to use a custom ROM in some time as I have been using Moto, Nokia, Nexus, and Pixel devices for the most part for years and just a few tweaks here and there are good enough, but I went to look into other possibilities with my Pixel 3a XL recently and found there just isn't much of anything.
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I think your statement of "I haven't really felt the need to use a custom Rom..." is very telling. We also get monthly updates without jumping through hoops and we have feature sets we all like. Also Google Pay is being used more and more and you need to unlock the bootloader which breaks GP. I mean you can do kernel mods to enable it but it's just not worth it. What would you like that you don't currently have? I can name a few things like modifying location of the clock, changing vibration, things like that. But is it worth not having security updates or hoping the rom dev will update the rom? And then asking for an ETA and getting hammered by users for asking. It's just not worth it and devs have moved on to other money making ventures. Begging for donations doesn't pay the rent.
Bottom line, it's not worth it for rom devs and thus we have just a few. Flashing is not as easy as it used to be with dual slots. I remember just flashing each file and vendor and done. Bootloop, no prob just reflash the image. Not anymore. Now it's "omg your rom bricked my phone". Last thing.. we all have things to do now whereas we were young and stupid years back. Just give me a nice display, good battery, some options, and I'm good. Just some random thoughs.. agree or disagree but simply observations on my part.
There are ROMs not listed on xda available but you have to search them out. But even on that end it's in the range of 3-4 bonito ROMs that I can think of.
I'm guessing we'll see more builds sooner rather than later since 10 just got officially released earlier in the month(plus TWRP isn't available for 10 yet - not that that would stop fastboot flashable ROMs from being built). Also the upcoming release of the pixel 4 should drop prices on the 3aXl which means more people will pick up this device and more ROMs will(most likely) be built. *That's my theory at least...I've seen other devices' development happen that way in the past so that's where I'm coming from.
I also think a combination of factors has slowed development in general across the board: less people buy new phones as often now(our phone is less than 6 months old), and stock android has gotten to the point that just rooting and minor tweaking is good enough for a lot of people. Not me personally - I always use custom ROMs - but for some others all they need is slightly tweaked stock, some theme-ing ability, and a few root apps like adaway or root browser to stay happy.
But anyway, big thanks to those who are building for our device. Y'all have skills that I do not have - which are much appreciated by me & many others.
And that was kind of what I thought... The custom ROM scene, particularly on Google devices is just shrinking. Thanks for confirming my suspicions.
Time will tell as this community moves into 10 development, but I'm guessing things will pick up a bit. Hang in there:good:
Bob nesta said:
There are ROMs not listed on xda available but you have to search them out. But even on that end it's in the range of 3-4 bonito ROMs that I can think of..
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For Android 10? Ive seen zero. 10 is very different than Pie and Bonito has a bunch of uniqueness as well. Building 10 for it is no small task and may take a while before you see 10 Roms for it. Even the handful of Rom devs (or teams) that have 10 builds dont have Bonito.
This is very similar to when Shamu came out. It took 2-3 months before custom Roms were working as there were so many changes from Hammerhead and Marshmallow was a very different build vs KitKat. There were also very unique challenges when Marlin came out for the same reasons. I hope to have Velocity up and running in the next few weeks but I wouldnt hold my breath on it as this has been one of the most challenging updates Ive come across and Ive been building Roms for Nexus/Pixel devices since JellyBean.
ctfrommn said:
For Android 10? Ive seen zero. 10 is very different than Pie and Bonito has a bunch of uniqueness as well. Building 10 for it is no small task and may take a while before you see 10 Roms for it. Even the handful of Rom devs (or teams) that have 10 builds dont have Bonito.
This is very similar to when Shamu came out. It took 2-3 months before custom Roms were working as there were so many changes from Hammerhead and Marshmallow was a very different build vs KitKat. There were also very unique challenges when Marlin came out for the same reasons. I hope to have Velocity up and running in the next few weeks but I wouldnt hold my breath on it as this has been one of the most challenging updates Ive come across and Ive been building Roms for Nexus/Pixel devices since JellyBean.
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Oh, not for 10. I was referring to pie. I'm pretty sure some of those pie ROMs slowed development down in anticipation for 10, so it's just a slow time right now.
It's cool... I understand a lot of work goes into building, so when/if they come - they come.
One question - does the a/b partitioning and lack of recovery partition make building harder or easier? (This is my first a/b device...just wondering.)
*And thanks for your hard work; I've been lurking on your kernel thread and see how much you've been refining it. Looking forward to your ROM whenever it drops. :good:
Never owned or dev'd for an a/b device except Marlin (Pixel 1) and that was pretty different from this I believe. Lack of recovery only affects how we flash it. The biggest issue right now is getting all the needed vendor/device stuff for it to boot and run right. No idea why this is never fully included with AOSP + posted binaries but it isnt.
The kernel (as always) is much simpler than a full Rom. Im still trying to get my head fully around the nuances for building a Rom for this. Rest assured they will come. Im definitely going to be spending more time on that side now.
---------- Post added at 10:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:40 AM ----------
acejavelin said:
The custom ROM scene, particularly on Google devices is just shrinking.
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Most people that bought the Pixels had little need for a custom Rom. This will change I think with the lower cost of the "a" line. So many people jumped off the Google phone train when the Nexus died and the cost was simply higher than they/I/we wanted to spend for a phone. The "a" line is a lot of what the Nexus line was so I would guess this will bring many back, though OP has done a good job taking and keeping most of them.
Not sure I would agree with that.
The elephant in the room is the activity across this entire forum section; there are few people here compared to another Pixel like the vanilla 3XL, massively less than you'll find over on the OnePlus sections. They're giving the A series credit for Goog seeing an 88% increase in Pixel sales this year but those sales do not appear to be to people like us that frequent this place, if they were, they would be here. I think at least for now this phone sold to ordinary folk, people who have never looked at their phones and wondered if they're truly bricked or just soft-bricked. Can't honestly say I know I'm right here but a look at the activity and available goodies over in OnePlus land is certainly compelling. Less money and bigger numbers along with an unlocked bootloader have attracted plenty of enthusiasts and along with them, development.
The regular 3 has been out a lot longer and development is mature. I also cant say Im definitively right either of course and I 100% agree OP has taken most of the low budget enthusiasts over to their side, especially outside the US.
Either way, it makes no nevermind to me. I will always build for the device I own and choose the device I own very carefully. There will be at least Velocity for the 3a XL its just a matter of how long it takes to get it up and running.
And yes, the lack of activity in this forum is almost shocking to me but last I was here with any regularity was in the Nexus 4/Nexus 5 days which was the wild west of Android development.
Let's not forget to mention the constant free advertising xda does for oneplus as well; that definitely helps their cause.
*And I'll admit it - I fell for it myself: bought a oneplus 7 pro, found that I hate curved displays, and returned it the next day - but the hype on xda fooled me for sure. The 7t pro looks nice, but I'm good - I'm hanging in with my bonito and seeing where things go.
krabman said:
Not sure I would agree with that.
The elephant in the room is the activity across this entire forum section; there are few people here compared to another Pixel like the vanilla 3XL, massively less than you'll find over on the OnePlus sections. They're giving the A series credit for Goog seeing an 88% increase in Pixel sales this year but those sales do not appear to be to people like us that frequent this place, if they were, they would be here. I think at least for now this phone sold to ordinary folk, people who have never looked at their phones and wondered if they're truly bricked or just soft-bricked. Can't honestly say I know I'm right here but a look at the activity and available goodies over in OnePlus land is certainly compelling. Less money and bigger numbers along with an unlocked bootloader have attracted plenty of enthusiasts and along with them, development.
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Hahaha. "vanilla 3XL" far superior to any 3a. I will go with small a
It doesn't surprise me because I, too, am finding myself comfortable with stock and avoiding all the inconveniences (mainly the merry-go-round of breaking things that check for root)... the only thing I really miss is being able to block ads and titanium backup. But it just isn't bothering me enough to care...
Golf c said:
Hahaha. "vanilla 3XL" far superior to any 3a. I will go with small a
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I owned the 3XL and didn't find it far superior. In fact I took it back and got a 6T while I waited for the next thing. Mainly it was the notch, and redraws in the GUI. In any event I only meant to refer to the regular 3XL or by extension any Pixel.
I guess if I paid @$300-400usd more for a device that has a smaller battery, with the same camera hardware(rear - don't care about the selfie cam), no headphone jack, and had a hideous notch so the OEM can claim "small bezels" - I may also be bitter & lurking in other devices' threads & talking smack(so I could feel better about my purchase...?)
Enjoy your 3xl and your notch... I guess. Congrats. :good:
Anytime you want to contribute to the 3axl community you are totally welcome to. No bitterness here. Otherwise...please go back to your "far superior" 3xl land please. We are not good enough for you here.
Take care.
*Bows down to the "far superior" 3xl owner*:angel:
I'm not going to claim expertise when I say this but I can call out plenty of experience on XDA over the course of many phones: I would not expect this forum section to be getting more active in the future. I'm not saying a ROM wont come but there was never much activity here at any time, it is quite slow now, it continues to get slower. Everything I've seen over my time here tells me that trend will continue. I'm honestly surprised about that because I had thought when I purchased this phone that this section would be moderately active. I was wrong. I don't like saying that and wish it wasn't true but that's how I see it.
I'll be off toward 4XL land soon; I have all the coffee tables a man needs in one life and I like my toys.
krabman said:
I'm not going to claim expertise when I say this but I can call out plenty of experience on XDA over the course of many phones: I would not expect this forum section to be getting more active in the future. I'm not saying a ROM wont come but there was never much activity here at any time, it is quite slow now, it continues to get slower. Everything I've seen over my time here tells me that trend will continue. I'm honestly surprised about that because I had thought when I purchased this phone that this section would be moderately active. I was wrong. I don't like saying that and wish it wasn't true but that's how I see it.
I'll be off toward 4XL land soon; I have all the coffee tables a man needs in one life and I like my toys.
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You mean bezzels right not coffee tables. Hahaha
acejavelin said:
Serious question, and not one to knock any developer or anyone else, and I am not complaining... But why don't we have more custom ROM's for this device?
I have owned lots of Nexus/Pixel devices in the past, and within a few months of release there were dozens of ROM's available for the device, but for this device there is a couple kernels and a few unofficial or "build it yourself" ROM's and that is it. It just seems very odd that a device so open by design and sold extremely well doesn't have more options. Why?
I admit I haven't had much involvement in the custom ROM community in a few years, and I haven't really felt a need to use a custom ROM in some time as I have been using Moto, Nokia, Nexus, and Pixel devices for the most part for years and just a few tweaks here and there are good enough, but I went to look into other possibilities with my Pixel 3a XL recently and found there just isn't much of anything.
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Well, I personally have stopped using custom ROMs after switching to a Pixel. Before this, I always was eager to install AOSP-based ROMs on my previous devices (Samsung and LG).
But especially LG is a disappointment software-wise: My LG G5 had a very good battery runtime with the initial ROM, but future updates killed this. Not to speak of non-existing updates and even security patches. My Samsungs were just awful from the start, they were immediately in dire need of AOSP.
On top, updating vendor images always was a PITA.. On my G5, I always had to do a clean flash, get rid of the bloat, flash the GApps etc.
But the Pixels are different. They also can have a bug here and there, but nothing severe. Battery runtime stays good with updates, and security patches always are on time. Updates are easy even when you are rooted.
Hence I just rooted my Pixel 3a XL and called it a day. Since Android 10 with its dark mode, I can even skip Substratum. YMMV of course, but this is how I see it.
I only root for system-wide adblock and HEBF Optimizer. Everything else is stock.
Custom Roms arent all (or even mostly) about features. There is so much more performance (and efficiency) to be had by building vs stock. Development will break loose soon enough. And when it does, then we will see what this device is truly capable of.
People, I just returned to the Samsung "fold" after a hiatus of several years. It's a Note 10+ 5G, with T-Mobile. While the improvement from my previous LG (AT&T) phone and experience is absolute (T-Mobile has turned out to be a wonderful surprise), what I was really hoping for was, among other things, the flexibility of rooting which I had with all of my previous Samsung phones. In fact, I had come to almost rely on rooting for some very simple reasons: to keep Google, Samsung and whatever other providers of hardware and software from becoming my life's "partners" within my phone! A simple example is Google's need to know my bodily functions, my contacts and my schedule even though all of that is well handled by other, non-Google systems. If I choose not to share my life with Google, the phone continues to function as required. But it (and Samsung, for that matter) keeps trying. I am reasonably proficient with ADB and use the work arounds with some success but it is annoying. Again, I am not out to subvert any system; I simply don't want to share my life with the hardware and software providers, at least, no more than is needed. My phone is unlocked. Is there any hope of getting root for the non-exynos version of this phone?
EBRJR said:
People, I just returned to the Samsung "fold" after a hiatus of several years. It's a Note 10+ 5G, with T-Mobile. While the improvement from my previous LG (AT&T) phone and experience is absolute (T-Mobile has turned out to be a wonderful surprise), what I was really hoping for was, among other things, the flexibility of rooting which I had with all of my previous Samsung phones. In fact, I had come to almost rely on rooting for some very simple reasons: to keep Google, Samsung and whatever other providers of hardware and software from becoming my life's "partners" within my phone! A simple example is Google's need to know my bodily functions, my contacts and my schedule even though all of that is well handled by other, non-Google systems. If I choose not to share my life with Google, the phone continues to function as required. But it (and Samsung, for that matter) keeps trying. I am reasonably proficient with ADB and use the work arounds with some success but it is annoying. Again, I am not out to subvert any system; I simply don't want to share my life with the hardware and software providers, at least, no more than is needed. My phone is unlocked. Is there any hope of getting root for the non-exynos version of this phone?
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Taking the time you look on the forum would have answered your question. One thread in particular has a pretty active discussion (including from one rather knowledgeable person).
The summary of the whole "if this phone will have root" is basically this.. Samsung got it's act together with this phone. Will root be possible... Someday maybe, but not anytime soon.
scottusa2008 said:
Taking the time you look on the forum would have answered your question. One thread in particular has a pretty active discussion (including from one rather knowledgeable person).
The summary of the whole "if this phone will have root" is basically this.. Samsung got it's act together with this phone. Will root be possible... Someday maybe, but not anytime soon.
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I appreciate the admonishment about "taking the time" and I actually considered that I had. Unfortunately, my limited reading here and elsewhere resulted in the same conclusion that you reached, minus the aspirational portion! I guess I was hoping that, indeed, my reviews were truly insufficient and missing some obvious and positive answer.
Well, I got my answer! Much appreciated.
I've used the stock rom (android 10) which came on the device, and the Malaysk is what i'm currently running (not paid for as I don't agree with forced payments for roms!) and it is still very laggy and stuff doesn't seem to work.
I've not updated for about 9 months, is there any new roms available (presuming we're talking stock roms since there only seems to be two russian guys making these roms and Hal9k still only has his old Android 9 rom)
How does the Hal9k android 9 rom compare? is it better performance/less bugs etc? compared to stock 10/Malaysk ?
Thanks in advance.
if you don't agree to pay someone else's work, keep the original rom
or make one yourself free for all
entirely not the point, but thanks for your input.
pakoner said:
if you don't agree to pay someone else's work, keep the original rom
or make one yourself free for all
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I see this reply used alot; the comment avoids the OPs comments entirely and the issues around these paid roms, including things like lack of support and the fact that they do not contribute to the advancement of the forums.
Try commenting on topic, addressing the points raised instead of confirming biases.
The fact is they take others work, modify the stock rom and then charge for it.
Coming back on topic, there's generally no need for these modified roms, as the mods/issues they address are no longer an issue (e.g. use a USB OBD), or issues such as speed dependant volume, can be found in launchers or installable apps.
Well there is if people have an older rom unit and want to upgrade it with a more up to date rom with fewer bugs and more inbuilt options.
That said, newer options and features worth having are still few and far between. It seems only car manufactures are able to develop their own units with features that work which do address peoples needs.
For anyone with an older car or a car lacking a good head unit, people have few options. Of course its a far cry from tape players and a readers digest atlas. But once purchased these universal units have so little support or upgrade options people are very much at the mercy of independent developers.
Thankfully these few people are willing to share their knowledge and skill for all. While they might only tinker with what came before, their upgrades and developments are still at their own pace - and thats their choice. If they charge a few quid for some of it then so what. Be gratefull we have them still at all.
Because what really is a shame is that there are now too few skilled developers like them. And that IS the problem. A few years ago developers for phone roms were ten a penny with good healthy competition and a huge influx of ideas and knowledge.
Sadly there are more and more people today with such skills only interested in developing for cash rewards by advertisers on the back of malware or worthless apps.
Those few that do try to help such as those here in the forums, even if they make a charge, do make some progress and share with all. Remember they are also constrained and rely heavily on far more restrictive and less supportive google tools these days than they were.
The real shame is there just isn't enough of them.
Dear fellow member at XDA.
Recently there has been a lot of threads about software bugs and things that just don't work as expected. These threads are to be expected, for this is a forum where we share those experiences and help each other towards solving them. XDA has always been this way and how can we shed light on a problem without being vocal about it?
But just as sure as there are threads about issues and complaints, there are post from people who have had a seamless experience and are extremely satisfied with their devices - and I'm truly happy for you, I'm mostly in the same boat! But let us not downplay the annoyances and bugs that fellow members experience and hinders them from enjoying that same experience you and I share.
Threads containing complaints over bugs often spark a vast debate that leads to no solution - rather it causes division and makes people shy away from both XDA and Android in general. Therefore; let us not start fighting over our individual experiences and rather respect each other and let everyone contribute without being judged.
For we are different - both in what we perceive, what annoys us and what we can live with. For some of us the cost of the phone puts a huge dent in our pockets, for others it's pocket change. And both are okay - it's the reality.
Some of us who have been using Android since the early 10's may have developed greater patience towards the operating system. Back then, it wasn't a question of whether you had bugs or not - it was rather a question of whether you had bugs that impacted your use case of the phone or you could live with them. Finding a phone without flaws was (and is still to a great extent) impossible.
We often advised each other to flash custom ROMs and custom kernels - that both voided our warranty and created a huge hassle for those who just wanted their phone to work (don't we all?) without all the hassle. For some people and maybe those who had more time on their hands, it was a fulfilling experience and it did indeed give you vast control over your device.
But the custom ROMs weren't the "end all be all" - if you flashed a AOSP rom on many phones, you'd lose the manufacturers phone processing as the camera drivers weren't open source. Sure you could mitigate some of that by installing GCam, but that's only assuming GCam was available for your device - and even then, it was subpar compared to the camera on the stock ROM. Rooting and flashing isn't without its risks, too. The P6P is rather forgiving, thankfully, but with many older devices you would lose your warranty and potential phone features since there had been a 'security breach'.
What I wrote above is not a 'carte blanche' for Google or any other manufacturer to release a software full of bugs - nor should we accept that Android is flawed by nature. Heck, it wasn't even acceptable back then! This is simply to shed some light on maybe why some peoples patience threshold for the occasional frame drop/bug here and there may be larger.
And others have maybe switched to Android from a rock solid iOS with the intention of enjoying a greater level of customisation, only to be faced with bugs, framedrops and things just not working as smoothly as they used to. Frankly, can you blame them for being disappointed? They gave up on something working really well and went against the good old saying 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' for a greater level of control over their devices and just faced headaches.
'Oh well, just switch back to iOS, what's the problem?'. The problem is simply that Android is more than a decade old now and still is plagued by bugs, fragmentation, subpar user interfaces and software issues. As previously mentioned, that wasn't acceptable a decade ago, and it still isn't acceptable. People switching away from Android doesn't solve this issue - rather we as consumers have to speak up when things don't work. And that's what your fellow members are doing here on XDA.
Post your own experiences (and even the good ones!), but post them in a respectful and acknowledging manner. Maybe one day we can all enjoy a bug free phone while those of us who enjoy tinkering with our phones can enjoy the same phones for even more reasons.
IOS just won't ever be able to win me over, it's closed source...And it's that simple.
The bugs you say android has (my 8 pro is flawless btw) iPhones do not allow you to make any of the changes that you can make on Android, or copying data, installing other ROM's, making root changes, I could go on all day with this but there are a million other threads explaining the same thing.
Android for me and many many others is light years ahead of iOS for a simple reason, it's open source and you can simply do more, iOS would be boring.
Also the pixel launcher is the fault of the performance issues, install Nova or another launcher and you're done.
Sorta agree with your post overall.
In general, I've found the threads in this P6P forum quite respectful - e.g. people experiencing certain issues versus others not experiencing those.
It is often not easy to understand why some issue appear for some people and not for others. At the end of the day, our phones are all different in a way. Different settings, different network operators, different wifi networks, different apps, different mods, etc. I've seen a number of issues / bugs being reported that I simply don't face, but also vice versa.
It's my first pixel and I must say that I've been quite surprised seeing all those issues being reported; combine that with the bumpy Google updates and it is certainly not a totally rosy picture.
I've had 1/6/7/8 OnePlus phones and these have been performing flawlessly overall.
I guess I'm one of the lucky ones. I've been able to overcome the issues which I personally had via rooting / tweaking. Right now, even on the December upgrade, I don't think that I have serious bugs (in the sense of functionality which is simply not working) - but my phone is not yours and vice versa. So at this stage I'm reasonably happy (leaving aside any (dis)liking of Android 12).
Let's hope that Google does a good job with the January upgrade.
foobar66 said:
......Let's hope that Google does a good job with the January upgrade.
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I purchased a dual SIM (nano sim and eSim) ATT Galaxy S21 Ultra to test for 2 weeks, while waiting on Google's January update. For the past 3 days, the S21 Ultra w/Android 12 has performed very well as a smartphone; no connectivity issues, no dropped calls, no smart lock issues, etc. I had hoped the P6P would perform the same way for me. I too am hoping the January update fixes the issues I've had with the P6P.
I've had android since the T-Mobile G1 back in late 2009 and early 2010 and I agree we were beta testers then. I've had many phones since then and very few with issues. I may be one of the lucky ones but I don't have a single issue with the P6P, not on the November update and I sideloaded the December update when it was available with not a single issue. When I got the Note 20 Ultra there were quite a few people posting of issues with it and what it boiled down to was moving data from one phone to another. I always start with a new phone from scratch, I know it involve more time but I have consistently had phones with little to no issues. Just wondering how many issues with the P6P are because of data being transferred from one phone to the other and not setting a new phone up from scratch.
ggrant3876 said:
I've had android since the T-Mobile G1 back in late 2009 and early 2010 and I agree we were beta testers then. I've had many phones since then and very few with issues. I may be one of the lucky ones but I don't have a single issue with the P6P, not on the November update and I sideloaded the December update when it was available with not a single issue. When I got the Note 20 Ultra there were quite a few people posting of issues with it and what it boiled down to was moving data from one phone to another. I always start with a new phone from scratch, I know it involve more time but I have consistently had phones with little to no issues. Just wondering how many issues with the P6P are because of data being transferred from one phone to the other and not setting a new phone up from scratch.
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And then there are those like me who always transfer their stuff (these days mostly by Google's cloud restore, and selective data only restore with Swift Backup) and I never have a problem (including on the P6P). I've even transferred my stuff three times on the P6P - once when it was completely stock before rooting, once after rooting, and then once again a few weeks back when I accidentally factory reset.
tl;dr