Related
request to mods/admins
please,please,please
I GET SICK WHEN I SEE THE GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
the general discussion is full of LG,Samsung,Sony-Ericsson threads and posts about roms,apps,whole bunch of stuff which we don't support because they aren't htc
some guys/girls asked for separated threads for those listed above,but they didn't get them because they aren't htc products
and now they are clearly allowed to post about those devices in general discussion
(because you don't stop them)
so when we look it in technical way...it is spamming,as talking about cars,pc's, estates is
in general or any other thread (except for off topic thread)
PLEASE STOP THIS by removing those threads or by giving them a section,either ways let's keep the forum clean and cool....and easy to use and navigate
the third option is to give us shovels to dig our way out of omnias,i780-s,x-perias and whole bunch of crap
please think about this and let's do something
thanks
faruk
Off-Topic is the Apropos Place for this.
Ultimately though, General is a good place for non-HTC products. Most people stay within their own section.
JimmyMcGee said:
Off-Topic is the Apropos Place for this.
Ultimately though, General is a good place for non-HTC products. Most people stay within their own section.
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well we aren't windows mobile developers,at least it's not our name...we aren't support for wm devices,but for htc,as it's said in the welcome screen nad short "site about"
Welcome to xda-developers.com
This site is about certain PDA-phones, made by a firm called HTC in Taiwan. Their makers named them 'Wallaby', 'Himalaya', 'Blue Angel', 'Wizard' and 'TyTN', but almost nobody knows them by those names. The mobile provider O2 sells them under the brand-name 'XDA', and that's what we had in our hands first. They're also known as Qtek, MDA, SX-56, Hermes and many, many other names.
Since we develop software for it, we need information, and nobody seemed eager or ready to give us what we needed. So we 'reverse-engineered' the devices, found a lot of information, and shared it with the world. But as our site grew we realised that lots of ordinary users were also suffering from a lack of support. They started using the xda-developers forum to communicate and before long the forum was as much a user forum as it was a developer forum.
We hope that you will enjoy this site and find it as useful as we do. We encourage you to donate or otherwise support this site. Of course absolutely all proceeds from donations will benefit this community.
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and samsung is not htc so the place for them is off topic
farukb said:
well we aren't windows mobile developers,at least it's not our name...
and samsung is not htc
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Oh I know. If you look back at all the non-Htc Subforum request threads you will see me telling people no. But They still seem to think General is ok. I don't know what Admin's stand on this is.
JimmyMcGee said:
Oh I know. If you look back at all the non-Htc Subforum request threads you will see me telling people no. But They still seem to think General is ok. I don't know what Admin's stand on this is.
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that is my point,i also say no, but they keep posting...but one moment i saw general full of non-htc crap and i got really pissed off
hateful child....
just kidding.
i think it's ignorant and somewhat elitist to completely deny non-HTC devices service here. We do have a forum for the XDA atom, which was NOT made by HTC. It was, however, carried by XDA. The world isn't static, and it's ignorant to say that the internet isn't either. We've opened forums for even the least used HTC devices, so we should definitely consider giving non-htc devices their own forums, especially given the number of people who have them.
fzzyrn said:
hateful child....
just kidding.
i think it's ignorant and somewhat elitist to completely deny non-HTC devices service here. We do have a forum for the XDA atom, which was NOT made by HTC. It was, however, carried by XDA. The world isn't static, and it's ignorant to say that the internet isn't either. We've opened forums for even the least used HTC devices, so we should definitely consider giving non-htc devices their own forums, especially given the number of people who have them.
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personally,i'd give them their sections,and i wouldn't mind to have omnia,but the general thread thing bugs me...if you know what i mean
well, you know....
to quote some inexplicably famous guy "the best place to find order is in disorder"
fzzyrn said:
well, you know....
to quote some inexplicably famous guy "the best place to find order is in disorder"
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????self-quoter
caught me!
i guess this means that i'm inexplicably famous.
fzzyrn said:
caught me!
i guess this means that i'm inexplicably famous.
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...no...
i only saw your signature...doh!
haha i keep trying to get one of the mods to say it so people don't present that reaction to me.
hint hint wink wink
anyone...please....the situation is getting bad really bad
admin opinion:
I have no issues whatsoever with the thread but I agree that off-topic might be a better place. Though this forum is for HTC made devices it doesn't stop us of discussing any other trivial matter as long as it's in the right section (whether that be the best brand of coffee, the speed of our dsl line, the color of my avatar or a different device)
We will not at any moment open forums for non htc made devices on this forum, it would open the floodgates for way too many devices and make this forum too general and unmanageble.
Best regards,
Flar
Flar said:
admin opinion:
I have no issues whatsoever with the thread but I agree that off-topic might be a better place. Though this forum is for HTC made devices it doesn't stop us of discussing any other trivial matter as long as it's in the right section (whether that be the best brand of coffee, the speed of our dsl line, the color of my avatar or a different device)
We will not at any moment open forums for non htc made devices on this forum, it would open the floodgates for way too many devices and make this forum too general and unmanageble.
Best regards,
Flar
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i totally agree with you
i am a htc user so i don't have problems with the forum
but as an admin you could do something to prevent general development or any other thread being full of "off topics"
mods don't clean it up,go now and you will see more non-htc threads than eg. application development threads
and that drives me crazy
quote from my first post
and now they are clearly allowed to post about those devices in general discussion
(because you don't stop them)
so when we look it in technical way...it is spamming,as talking about cars,pc's, estates is
in general or any other thread (except for off topic thread)
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farukb said:
i totally agree with you
i am a htc user so i don't have problems with the forum
but as an admin you could do something to prevent general development or any other thread being full of "off topics"
mods don't clean it up,go now and you will see more non-htc threads than eg. application development threads
and that drives me crazy
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Unfortunately the life of a mod can be overwhelming at times, we can't be everywhere all the time. If you have a problem with a thread and want to bring it to our attention, you could send a PM.
We will evaluate the options and take the action we feel is best.
farukb said:
i totally agree with you
i am a htc user so i don't have problems with the forum
but as an admin you could do something to prevent general development or any other thread being full of "off topics"
mods don't clean it up,go now and you will see more non-htc threads than eg. application development threads
and that drives me crazy
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As jimmy says mods do have their own lives and can't be everywhere all the time, it helps if you help point out stuff like this.
Consider the fact that some of our mods spend up to 14 hours per day here, most of that time spent moderating...
Also consider this is vacation season and for a lot of the mods (and users) this time of day is the time you start thinking about going to bed, with mods being on vacation all of us have a hard time coping with all the mod work as it is, a bit of patience will get you a long way.
Best regards,
Flar
Flar said:
As jimmy says mods do have their own lives and can't be everywhere all the time, it helps if you help point out stuff like this.
Consider the fact that some of our mods spend up to 14 hours per day here, most of that time spent moderating...
Also consider this is vacation season and for a lot of the mods (and users) this time of day is the time you start thinking about going to bed, with mods being on vacation all of us have a hard time coping with all the mod work as it is, a bit of patience will get you a long way.
Best regards,
Flar
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yes i know that and i fully appreciate it,they are people too
but there is a dozen of mods,not only one
i'm not rushing anyone,just asked everyone to consider it
this thread is almost a month old (7-25-08) so it won't make a difference now or next week or whenever
thanks again for your patience and dealing with some sometimes pissed off guys
i'll help,make your job easier
i'm starting to provide links of all non-htc threads in a new "report non-htc" thread
so someone could just delete them,without searching and reading the whole forum
is it ok with you?
thanks
By delete, you mean move to Off Topic?
Also, if this is the desired plan, should the General forum have a annoucment, and maybe change the description, informing users of this?
Oh and BTW, I have PM'd Meniesys about making a Roll up Sticky for all his guides, he said he is looking into it
Ta
Dave
At least one post in 90% of threads here have a question in them, so why aren't they all moved to the Q And A threads? Forums are discussions of opinions and questions for each other to talk about.
If one thread is going to be moved that (imo) is not a question, then why aren't all the others? tbh, it annoys me, and i think the moderation here is a little too heavy handed.
Agreed... and to add another question why do some devices have a Q&A sub-section and some not? Seems inconsistent. Anyway the forums are hard to navigate anyway (too many sub-sections, outdated stickies, too many "READ THIS BEFORE YOU POST"-threads etc..). I guess at least the Q&A part could be merged with 'General' of every forum. Also Accessoires & Wallpapers/Themes get an extra sub-section? I'd lump everything together and make just two per device (General/Dev).
Oh and don't take this as "This is how you run a forum " - just my humble opinion
Ok. When a device general forum gets over 10,000 posts, or 1000 threads, it gets a Q&A section.
General vs dev only would result in even more junk in both to be fair...
I reckon at present there is a good balance as almost everything is consistent across the site. Go to HTC G1. It has, by and large, the same layout as all other sections.regarding outdated stickies, contact the mod for the relevant section by pm and point it out.
Regarding questions being moved, we can only move what we know about or see... So drop the mod for the section a PM with the threads.
MarkusPO said:
At least one post in 90% of threads here have a question in them, so why aren't they all moved to the Q And A threads? Forums are discussions of opinions and questions for each other to talk about.
If one thread is going to be moved that (imo) is not a question, then why aren't all the others? tbh, it annoys me, and i think the moderation here is a little too heavy handed.
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Heavy handed? Howso??? Feel free to PM if you want.
Typically, the original post in a thread defines the rest of the thread. If it is a question, then evidently the correct place is Q&A. I don't really see any way to argue with that to be fair.
Regarding a question that emerges later on in a thread, perhaps a move is not needed. For example, are you suggesting a ROM thread should be moved because someone asked a question?
As before, the reason some things get moved and others don't is because we are not aware of them. The report post feature, and pm to the section mod, are both essential in letting us know what is going on.
Finally, XDA is a development site first and foremost, so keeping questions clear of development areas is a pretty high priority. People spamming the dev areas with pointless and basic questions annoy everyone, and just bury the content we are all here to see (ROMs and tweaks)
pulser_g2 said:
Heavy handed? Howso??? Feel free to PM if you want.
Typically, the original post in a thread defines the rest of the thread. If it is a question, then evidently the correct place is Q&A. I don't really see any way to argue with that to be fair.
Regarding a question that emerges later on in a thread, perhaps a move is not needed. For example, are you suggesting a ROM thread should be moved because someone asked a question?
As before, the reason some things get moved and others don't is because we are not aware of them. The report post feature, and pm to the section mod, are both essential in letting us know what is going on.
Finally, XDA is a development site first and foremost, so keeping questions clear of development areas is a pretty high priority. People spamming the dev areas with pointless and basic questions annoy everyone, and just bury the content we are all here to see (ROMs and tweaks)
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Thanks for the response. My time here has been fairly short I know, but I'm not new to forums of course, and this is my experience thus far:
a thread that wasn't a question, but was about speculation for a nexus tablet was merged into the 'what phone / tablet should i buy next' thread. wtf.
other threads have been merged into semi-related, but not completely related threads. wtf.
i see sticky threads for newbies about development in - for example - the nexus s general on how to root / mod etc. wtf.
i know it's a fine balance between heavy-handedness to try to enforce an overall tidy forum vs user intuition and the chaoticness that is the weird and wacky thoughts of people.
imho this processing of my threads annoys me, and i'm sure it does other people too. if it drives people away, then that's bad for advertisement revenue. as long as threads are in the sort-of-right forum, then so-what. i for one tend to browse all the forums for a particular phone. so i'm going to reply if something catches my attention.
though, i do like the concept of having an accessories forum, dev forum, and general forum. i don't think a q+a forum is needed, ie. if i were to ask "does the otterbox commuter have this feature as a thread starter" where should it go? naturally the accessories forum, but it's a question... if i were after information about accessories, i'd head to the accessories forum as i may have the same question.
forums thrive on questions and answers. moving some questions to a q+a forum, and appearing to turn a blind eye to others just doesn't make sense. yes, so you miss some, but visitors don't know what you miss, and what you leave.
i'm thinking maybe test out a slightly looser mod regime for a while and allow related questions in the forums.
MarkusPO said:
Thanks for the response. My time here has been fairly short I know, but I'm not new to forums of course, and this is my experience thus far:
a thread that wasn't a question, but was about speculation for a nexus tablet was merged into the 'what phone / tablet should i buy next' thread. wtf.
I will look into this. Sounds strange.
other threads have been merged into semi-related, but not completely related threads. wtf.
i see sticky threads for newbies about development in - for example - the nexus s general on how to root / mod etc. wtf.
Those threads are pertaining to development, as without a way to root/hack the device, nobody can really develop for it. That's basically the way it's been for ages, so that's unlikely to change.
i know it's a fine balance between heavy-handedness to try to enforce an overall tidy forum vs user intuition and the chaoticness that is the weird and wacky thoughts of people.
You are right, it's hard on occasion to strike a balance, but to be honest, you have no idea what kinds of trolls we get here Most of the time we can sweep away the awful stuff before people see it...
imho this processing of my threads annoys me, and i'm sure it does other people too. if it drives people away, then that's bad for advertisement revenue. as long as threads are in the sort-of-right forum, then so-what. i for one tend to browse all the forums for a particular phone. so i'm going to reply if something catches my attention.
Fair point, but we have about 600,000 threads I can assure you we won't be cutting the number of forums per device, as that would make things unmanageable. Regarding the "right sort of forum", will address next. The trouble is that when I want to find some hack or tweak, I go to development. I don't expect to hunt through 200 pages of "I NEED HALLLLLLLLLLLP PLEEEEEEEEEEEZ NAOOOOOOOOOOOOOO KTHX" just to find a buried "[Mod] Trackball Wake source edit" or whatever...
though, i do like the concept of having an accessories forum, dev forum, and general forum. i don't think a q+a forum is needed, ie. if i were to ask "does the otterbox commuter have this feature as a thread starter" where should it go?
That would go in accessories. To be honest the Q&A is actually for beginner device questions moreso than that. I do see your point here, but I think you are misunderstanding the idea for the Device Q&A forum. If you want to ask "how do I flash a ROM on SPL v0.1", then Q&A is the place to go If you are more asking about a theme, then themes & apps is the place to ask it (provided it's about one of the existing themes and you can post in the existing thread). Regarding development forum, the idea there is that ONLY roms and other hacks go there, or discussions about achieving them. Essentially, anything not development related should be in general ("I like this device, do you?", "Is your screen darker at the bottom than top"? etc...), and the questions about ROMs etc in Q&A...
naturally the accessories forum, but it's a question... if i were after information about accessories, i'd head to the accessories forum as i may have the same question.
It would belong to the accessories forum. As above, Q&A is for device/ROM questions.
forums thrive on questions and answers. moving some questions to a q+a forum, and appearing to turn a blind eye to others just doesn't make sense. yes, so you miss some, but visitors don't know what you miss, and what you leave.
Interesting... You got any such examples? It would not be normal to move a question thread from a forum other than development, in my experience, so if there's an example, I'd love to see it. If you mean moving questions from development, that's not something we're likely to change, as it drives away the developers and hackers who make the ROMs you use
There shouldn't be any "blind eye turning", though if something is borderline or in doubt, it wouldn't usually be moved.
i'm thinking maybe test out a slightly looser mod regime for a while and allow related questions in the forums.
Other than the development forums (they're not going to change- we're having to add restrictions in there as well like postcount to stop spam and junk), that should be the way it is... Please PM me any examples you see, as I'd be keen to follow them up.
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Answers inline.
P
Often a single thread will wind up having many hundreds, even thousands, of posts. In most cases, one would have to be a masochist to read them all, but, unless one can come up with good search terms to find posts relevant to a particular aspect of the thread topic, one is likely to miss significant, even crucial, information.
It seems that, in many contexts, starting new threads is frowned upon here, and users are encouraged to add new topics to existing threads. An extreme example is the thread:
Barnes & Noble Nook Color > Nook Color Android Development > Development Q&A - Ask Developmental Questions Here!
Mikey starts the thread with the message:
If you have any questions that may be development related please post them in here instead of making a new thread. Hopefully others will try to answer your question to the best of your abilities. Plus it saves me from moving a few hundred threads a day
Thanks!
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To me this makes no sense. Wouldn't it be better to have a sub-forum for such questions, so that users who have a question, perhaps even one not clearly formulated in their mind, could see what questions have been posted and possibly answered already? (Parenthetically, I would like to know how to distinguish "Developmental Questions" from other technical questions.)
Also, I think a lot more use should be made of the Wiki. For example, wouldn't it be useful to have a Wiki page for each ROM or closely-related set of ROMs for each device or set of devices that said ROMs have been developed for? Couldn't any guide that will inevitable require updating in response to developments and user questions be better done as a wiki page? (I would allow for the possibility that changes in the page might require the approval of the author of the guide.)
Am I banging my head against a wall here?
There is a lot of good info in the threads. But you expect devs to keep things up to date in one location? Some of them do and do a really good job at it. But most don't. Hell 95% of the time they don't even have a description of what the benefits of buying their paid apps over the free version are in the market. They don't put forth the effort when they are trying to get you to spend money, why would they do it in the forums. [/rant]
Sorry guys, just sick of the lack of descriptions/features the market.
aarons510 said:
Often a single thread will wind up having many hundreds, even thousands, of posts. In most cases, one would have to be a masochist to read them all, but, unless one can come up with good search terms to find posts relevant to a particular aspect of the thread topic, one is likely to miss significant, even crucial, information.
It seems that, in many contexts, starting new threads is frowned upon here, and users are encouraged to add new topics to existing threads. An extreme example is the thread:
Barnes & Noble Nook Color > Nook Color Android Development > Development Q&A - Ask Developmental Questions Here!
Mikey starts the thread with the message:
To me this makes no sense. Wouldn't it be better to have a sub-forum for such questions, so that users who have a question, perhaps even one not clearly formulated in their mind, could see what questions have been posted and possibly answered already? (Parenthetically, I would like to know how to distinguish "Developmental Questions" from other technical questions.)
Also, I think a lot more use should be made of the Wiki. For example, wouldn't it be useful to have a Wiki page for each ROM or closely-related set of ROMs for each device or set of devices that said ROMs have been developed for? Couldn't any guide that will inevitable require updating in response to developments and user questions be better done as a wiki page? (I would allow for the possibility that changes in the page might require the approval of the author of the guide.)
Am I banging my head against a wall here?
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Once a Device forum reaches a certain amount of posts, a new sub-section for "Q&A" gets added to the device forum. In the meantime, we use a specific thread for questions regarding development. This makes it easier for devs to read through there threads and pull out issues and come up with better products. You as a user are assumed to have the basic knowledge to search for your answer before posting questions. If you still can not come up with an answer, then by all means, post your question in the "General" sub-forum.
Also, can you tell me what being a masochist has to do with anything?
After reading a few threads and comments from our members I thought it may be worthwhile to create a Feedback, Recommendations or Idea's thread for XDA. We want to improve our forum for developers and the normal users.
So, rather than sending a PM to a Moderator, please feel free to leave any feedback or idea's you may have to improve XDA, so we can discuss them properly, openly, with the plan to hopefully implement the ideas which are good.
It's sole purpose is to improve XDA and collect your thoughts and idea's.
We will all be monitoring this thread, and someone will hopefully reply without much delay.
Thanks
Rick
Moderator/Developer Committee
Edits done by Clark Joseph Kent to better support XDA.
XDA-Developers needs to be more about developers
While I see that time and users have made XDA less about development and more about user support, I think XDA has gone too far in that direction.
Developers need a place to DISCUSS development.
The "General" subforums are too overwhelmed with threads like "Post pictures of your phone", "list of threads linked from other places" and other random "general user" stuff.
The "Q&A" subforums are now a place where moderators chase newbies to. The most technical question you might find in the Q&A section these days is "I just bricked my phone, what do I do?" (Usually, the answers are either making fun of the OP or telling him/her to search.)
The "Development" subforums, which seems like a logical place to discuss development, is now reserved for people to post finish products only and beg for donations - It's the XDA version of the "app store." There's no actual "development" discussion allowed.
Here's what we don't have anymore (but desperately need):
A place where a kernel developer could start a thread discussing the pitfalls of turning off processor cores on a particular device when the device is idle. That would likely lead into a discussion on possible ways to optimize the IN/OUT code for the cores, which would actually *gasp* promote development.
A place where a person might post a "HOW TO" document describing how to modify a stock firmware for a specific device to override carrier controlled lock downs. (For example, editing the CSC for a samsung device.)
A place for development related DISCUSSION - not just a subform for "I cobbled together mods I copied from other people into a so-called ROM and will now beg you to donate to me and press my "thanks" button."
XDA promotes itself as a DEVELOPERS FORUM. The definition of "forum" is "A meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged." Doesn't that seem to indicate that development related discussion would be encouraged here?
(continued...)
---------- Post added at 11:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:51 AM ----------
So, the obvious question about my post above is how do you moderate a "developers discussion" subforum?
I honestly don't see a problem with that. You make posting access to that subforum by request only. The access should be granted pretty freely but with a note reminding the user that any non-development discussions will result in loss of access to those subforums. Plain and simple. Any RD's or ERD's would automatically be given access without the need to post a request.
Only developers should moderate those subforums, as the fact is that XDA has some moderators that have no clue whatsoever what "development" is.
I'd even go so far as to suggest that XDA's ERDs would be given final say in moderating those subforums. Actually, it might be a good idea to give ERDs final say in moderating all the development related forums - including the existing so-called "development" and "original development" subforums.
...
I'll have one more post to discuss the current vagueness of the rules and the random enforcement of them...
Gary, while I agree with many of your key points one I disagree with is that only elite developers (who don't have the time) are the ones who should have the 'final say' with regards to moderation, and that they are the best qualified to do so. Given a good set of rules to use as guidelines, any level headed person who is committed to helping XDA move along smoothly is qualified to be a moderator. I am not a developer, however, I've been moderating forums for years now. People are people no matter what the subject. You and I have discussed the rules, which are being worked on. I like the idea of a 'developer only', invite only forum. I think it's time to make that happen. Given that I am so not a developer, I know when I'm over my head - and we have people on the team who moderators like me can turn to. Moderators are here to help, not hinder - I think we can work this all out so the developers are happier, users learn, and moderators moderate
garyd9 said:
I'd even go so far as to suggest that XDA's ERDs would be given final say in moderating those subforums. Actually, it might be a good idea to give ERDs final say in moderating all the development related forums - including the existing so-called "development" and "original development" subforums.
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Some interesting points you've listed, which I can honestly say are being looked at, however your point above, I'm gonna have to disagree with. The ERD's are extremely busy with actual development, as are most, if not all the developers. If we where to also ask the ERDs to moderate all the development related forums, they'd have no time to develop
I didn't suggest that ERD's would be constantly moderating them - only that they'd have the opportunity (if they chose it) to be the final say. Who do you trust more to make an informed decision about what is development and what isnt':
Entropy512 or ModJohnCanBarelyRoot?
I think the ERD's are more involved (at least in reading) than many people think, and XDA should respect their knowledge and ability by giving them the option of stepping in saying that, despite what a non-developer moderator might think, this is or isn't dev related.
Anyway, it's just a suggestion.
garyd9 said:
I didn't suggest that ERD's would be constantly moderating them - only that they'd have the opportunity (if they chose it) to be the final say. Who do you trust more to make an informed decision about what is development and what isnt':
Entropy512 or ModJohnCanBarelyRoot?
I think the ERD's are more involved (at least in reading) than many people think, and XDA should respect their knowledge and ability by giving them the option of stepping in saying that, despite what a non-developer moderator might think, this is or isn't dev related.
Anyway, it's just a suggestion.
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Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. I have the utmost respect for ERD's, and RD's. I'm not a developer myself, would never claim to be, but I do try and read up on things to understand them so I can make informed decisions. But likewise, I do ask developers for advice on specific things, then learn from what I'm told. In an ideal world, we'd let ERD's have the final say, maybe even RD's, but with so many in house fights amongst so called dev's, there is the potential for abuse which is what concerns me. I cannot see ERD's doing this mind you.
Again, interesting ideas which I welcome
So on to what I'm sure will be a sore subject: Rules and moderation...
I realize that XDA has grown by leaps and bounds since I first joined. Back then, there were only a handful of people geeky enough to have smartphones. Today, they are the norm. With more users there are more devices, more forums and XDA needed more moderators. That's perfectly understandable. It's also understandable that XDA has reached into the "non-developer" pool of people for moderation help.
However, the forum rules which the moderators supposedly moderate by are too vague and really don't guide users (or moderators) in the proper way to do things. It only makes matters worse then the moderators enforce those rules in seemingly random ways. Finally, when a bad decision is made by a moderator (or a decision that a user thinks is bad), there's no documented way for a user to ask for help. "Report to moderator" is pretty useless when you're only reporting to the same person you are complaining about.
If there's a guideline, it should be shared by ALL the moderators and documented so that users can understand it. The primary location to find these rules and guidelines is a post that is stickied in every single forum/subforum here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/announcement.php?a=81 If it's not in that post, then it's fairly safe to assume that users don't know about it.
So what's wrong with those rules? Well, they are pretty vague in too many cases. Vague rules lead to different people interpreting them differently (or interpreting them selectively for different people.) Here's some examples:
"Don’t use XDA to advertise your product or service. " "Commercial advertising, advertising referral links, pay per click links and other income generating methods are forbidden. Do not use xda-developers as a means to make money." -- Yet, how many people have seen a developer clearly post (or get someone else to post on their behalf) that if people don't "donate" enough money for them to buy a device, they don't development for that device. To me, that sounds like "I'll sell my development for the cost of the device."
"Off-site downloads are permitted if the site is non-commercial and does not require registration.... but may be permitted if ... the site is a relatively small personal website without commercial advertising/links (i.e. not a competitor forum-based site with purposes and aims similar to those of XDA-Developers.com.)" -- There are literally thousands of links on this website for downloads on sammobile.com or samfirmware.com. That site requires registration, advertises, and has forums that "compete" with XDA. Yet, the links are still there.
"If you are developing something that is based on the work of another Member, you MUST first seek their permission, and you must give credit to the member whose work you used." -- I think this one depends on who is violating the rule. Apparently, if its a 15 (now 16) year old kid, it's okay. Yes, I'm bitter about this one as I have had my work used (without my permission), had reported it to moderators, was told someone would look into it, and then had the report disappear into a black hole. It only made matters worse when that same person accepted "donations" given as a result of the code stolen from me. Being I ask people to donate to a children's hospital (not to me) for my work, I feel as if my work was stolen from me, and money was stolen from a child who desperately needed medical care. There's no question as to who developed the code, as gerrit/github timedate stamps don't lie. In truth, I wouldn't have minded about this so much if the little thief forwarded the donations to a real charity. I do share my work freely, but I VERY seriously resented (and still resent) my work was used for a thief's profit. To my way of thinking, there's nothing vague about the rule here - only the lack of enforcement.
Then there's the whole thing with that types of threads go into which subforums. There's simply NO consistency with this. A perfect (and recent) example is that I posted a thread in a dev subforum containing modifications for a single stock samsung package, SecLauncher2.apk. That was pushed to apps&themes by a moderator. That same moderator, however, has permitted threads for modifying only "SystemUI.apk" and only "android.policy.jar." He's also permitted completely non-development related things such as "post modem dumps here" and "stock deodex firmware."
So, not only are the rules vague, but the moderation of the rules is so inconsistent that a user can't even look to precedent to decide what is and isn't allowed.
....
I'm going to stop here. I feel like I've started ranting, and that isn't productive. The points are valid, but discussing them has brought up things I'm (obviously) very bitter about.
Really appreciate this feedback, guys. We're going to bring it forth in our monthly call with the admins and site owner. :highfive:
What about doing a forum named like "other devices root development". There are a lot of potential devices that don't get root because they don't call the devs atraction (and some of the have locked bootloaders).
I also think that there are forums from brand new "high-tech" devices that don't get development because well, there is no development for unlocking bootloaders or doing something like root for locked bootloaders, which happens on some devices. So, again, othere devices could have their chance.
mfsr98
@garyd9, no need to be bitter, I'm actually glad to hear you views, so rant away. I created this thread for this very purpose, to hear the views of the users, to better XDA
...........................
You can lead a fool to wisdom but you can't make him think! XDA, mobile wisdom, not a n00b feeding ground!!
-gary
While I agree with some of what you have said I feel if you want strictly 100% development talk then that is reserved for the RD forum for RDs to have amongst themselves... Yes there are developers that are not RDs and to that I say they should apply to become RDs. There needs to be a place to allow users to provide feedback and suggestions on things that are developed.
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sgt. slaughter said:
-gary
While I agree with some of what you have said I feel if you want strictly 100% development talk then that is reserved for the RD forum for RDs to have amongst themselves... Yes there are developers that are not RDs and to that I say they should apply to become RDs. There needs to be a place to allow users to provide feedback and suggestions on things that are developed.
Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2
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There is a place for that. The problem is there isn't a place for real development talk. Any real discussions get drowned out by inanity. I think with the influx of new people that noise to real development ratio has finally reached a tipping point. Then again, just how much input can Jon Q. Public have in development other than saying "I want this" or "How do I do that"? Those are user issues. We need to develop better developer solutions.
reinbeau said:
There is a place for that. The problem is there isn't a place for real development talk. Any real discussions get drowned out by inanity. I think with the influx of new people that noise to real development ratio has finally reached a tipping point. Then again, just how much input can Jon Q. Public have in development other than saying "I want this" or "How do I do that"? Those are user issues. We need to develop better developer solutions.
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Hence my initial suggestion, that if you want 100% dev talk take up and use the RD forum and discuss in there...
Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2
sgt. slaughter said:
Hence my initial suggestion, that if you want 100% dev talk take up and use the RD forum and discuss in there...
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Xda DEVELOPERS. Why would a site called xda DEVELOPERS push development talk off into a corner, while non development talk reigns free?
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garyd9 said:
Xda DEVELOPERS. Why would a site called xda DEVELOPERS push development talk off into a corner, while non development talk reigns free?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2
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Adapt with the times as things change.... Change and adjusting is tough at times but if done so correctly its for the better of all those involved...
It is absolutely impossible to have purely 100% code talk in the dev sections. The size of the userbase is way too large for the mod team to regulate that.
Hence the RDs section will be best if you want no nonsense dev talk.
Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2
sgt. slaughter said:
Adapt with the times as things change.... Change and adjusting is tough at times but if done so correctly its for the better of all those involved...
...
Hence the RDs section will be best if you want no nonsense dev talk.
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You may be right, but I don't want to consider the possibility that XDA-Developers might become a non-developers forums. If your suggestion is carried out, I'd predict that it'd slowly (but surely) lose it's developer core and become more and more another "android central" or other generic handheld forum.
My reasoning is simple: XDA doesn't give birth to developers - they are born and bred before they get here. However, you're suggesting that they won't have a place to "talk shop" here unless and until they achieve RD status, which I'm assuming involves a certain application and requires that some projects have already been hawked here on XDA. I'm making some assumptions about RD here, but I think it'd be fairly safe to assume that a person can't submit a professional non-XDA resume to get it. As well, you are also always going to have some devs that simply refuse to "apply" for what they consider a "silly title." More especially those that see "ROM cooks" called RD and look the other way.
What is a real developer going to do in that case? Simple: find someplace else to talk shop.
(It's almost comical the way I talk about RD here. I've been doing professional dev for a very long, have given back to the android and ppc communities, and been an XDA member for a long time - but never bothered with RD status here when the program started. So, I honestly don't know what it might involve. I might be wrong about any type of requirements.)
I guess this question moves beyond my suggestions. I've been basing things on a developer-centric forum. That's what XDA-Developers was when I joined, and quite a few FAQ's we point users to indicate that it's still intended to be. If XDA is going to move away from that, then please disregard my suggestions.
Take care
Gary
sgt. slaughter said:
Hence my initial suggestion, that if you want 100% dev talk take up and use the RD forum and discuss in there...
Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2
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Not everyone who develops is an RD - and why would you remove the ability for people to learn and share?
garyd9 said:
Xda DEVELOPERS. Why would a site called xda DEVELOPERS push development talk off into a corner, while non development talk reigns free?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2
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Exactly.
It seems obvious that one specific issue that everyone agrees on is that *something* needs to be done to handle "developer discussion." While there are different opinions on the best way to do that, I haven't seen anyone post anything implying that dev's talking shop is a bad thing.
Fallen Spartan, perhaps this thread can branch that particular conversation to a separate thread? That would allow this thread to deal with the other issues without confusion.
Thanks
Gary
garyd9 said:
It seems obvious that one specific issue that everyone agrees on is that *something* needs to be done to handle "developer discussion." While there are different opinions on the best way to do that, I haven't seen anyone post anything implying that dev's talking shop is a bad thing.
Fallen Spartan, perhaps this thread can branch that particular conversation to a separate thread? That would allow this thread to deal with the other issues without confusion.
Thanks
Gary
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For the time being I'm inclined to let the discussion continue in this thread as there isn't much else being discussed here atm. If more idea's/recommendations appear, we can then create a new thread....if needed. Also, if a set way has been agreed on a particular idea/recommendation, I can create a second post updating users so its not lost within the thread
Making room for real developers again
reinbeau said:
Not everyone who develops is an RD - and why would you remove the ability for people to learn and share?
Exactly.
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Hello,
I am one of those professional developers in real life, who don't have the time to play silly points games just to get access to the developer part of a forum. So my "XDA status" is stuck at "noob", but I am really here to look for a place to share technical discussion with other developers.
Looking around (I have been lurking for years now), I think the following improved structure would be a good idea:
In each area (General, OS, device) there should be 4 development subforums rather than the current 1 or 2:
1. Firmware and theme releases.
One thread for each firmware/theme series, hosting download links in the top 3 posts, and support discussions in the rest of the thread.
For instance the Android Samsung Galaxy III "Firmware and theme releases" forum would have exactly one "Cyanogenmod" thread and at most one "Cyanogenmod kang by temasek" thread.
Real cooks can post new threads and create the first two replies in their own thread. Non-noob users can post in existing threads after the 3. post in the thread.
2. Free App releases.
One thread for each free app, hosting download links in the top 3 ports, and support discussions in the rest of the thread.
For instance the Android Free App releases forum would have exactly one "ROM Manager" thread.
Real developers can post new threads and create the first two replies in their own thread. Non-noob users can post in existing threads after the 3. post in the thread.
3. Unreleased experiments
One thread for each unreleased firmware/theme/free app, hosting only discussion of what should go into it, difficulties in making it etc. When released the thread is moved to 1 or 2 as appropriate, at the thread OPs command.
Only real cooks and real developers can post here, there is a limit on new threads per user per month depending on the posters general standing.
4. Developer to Developer
This hosts regular forum style discussion threads where developers for that target (OS/phone) can ask each other questions about technical details for the target, one thread per subject matter, no threads about specific projects. This is the place to discuss stuff like ("Which wceload variants are in which upstream firmwares" in a WM forum or "How are the GPIO pins on the SoC connected to other parts of the phone (in a phone specific forum) or "How does the foo() API work" (in an OS forum)).
Only real cooks and real developers can post here.
Determining access:
Now as to determining the "real cook" and "real developer" status of a user, there could be a quiz and a number of extrinsic tests for each OS. Quiz questions would be multiple choice that a real cook/devel would answer easily, but a poser would get wrong. Other tests could be "prove that you have a developer account on Market/AppStore/OVI/Marketplace" "Show that you can sign an empty sis/cab/etc. with a valid developer certificate" Because getting a new certificate/account for some of the platforms may no longer be possible or may be otherwise restricted, such
tests would just count as N correct quiz answers in determining the pass/fail.
FIRST OF ALL, THIS THREAD IS IN NO WAY INTENDED TO BE NEGATIVE TOWARDS XDA!
When I get interested in something and look for a forum on the subject, I look for the BEST forum on the subject. When I became interested in Android phones and looked for a forum, in became obvious to me VERY quickly that XDA was THE superior forum by far; but what 'superior' means is, I think, what I would like this discussion to be about...
It was quickly obvious to me that XDA was the forum where the developers were. This, in itself, made XDA the superior forum, obviously it seemed to me. Having access to developers is certainly a priceless ability to have. Also, AFIK, new developments tend to get posted on XDA before other Android forums (though, I must admit, while I am familiar with some other Android forums, I very rarely visit them, other that by occasional Google search results, and even then, I try to seek out XDA results).
I would certainly NOT say this is the best Android forum for new users who are unwilling to search or use their brain, however new users, even if N00b's, will do fine if they respect the standard protocols.
HOWEVER... I have recently begun to wonder... is this the best Android forum to get help with your questions? If you want to question a dev on XDA about one of his/her apps, then probably yes, but what about more GENERAL questions? Is XDA really more oriented towards higher issues, such as app development?
I personally enjoy helping people with their questions, but I have found difficulty with getting responses to my questions sometimes. I feel certain that there are users on XDA that would KNOW the answer to my question, but of course, I am well aware they have better things to do with their time than answer my questions (which means no disrespect) which the likely never even see.
As I say, I have visited the other Android forums very little. I am wondering if those forums are a better place for these general types of questions? So, I welcome a discussion on anyone's opinion on other Android forums vs XDA...
I moved this here. It is probably a better place for this type of discussion
mark manning said:
I moved this here. It is probably a better place for this type of discussion
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I agree, thanks, but I don't want to create any friction between mods (see my PM).
I will not bite you, however you respond!
Well Mark, I thought it was a very valid and interesting topic for discussion, and since you moved it here I think you agreed with me, but unfortunately, we seem to be the only two people who feel that way?
Are there users here who feel that there are OTHER users here who would be better served on OTHER Android forums? I am in no way attempting to reduce the XDA user base, but as I said, I think this is obviously the ELITE forum (which DOES NOT necessarily mean exclusionary), but to my mind at least, many users here who likely have their minds on higher things than answering relatively simple questions, which might be more welcome on OTHER Android forums. OR... I could be wrong... as I mentioned, I have spent little time on other Android forums, but I have noticed that certain Google searches I make return top results from forums OTHER than XDA (though GENERALLY I find XDA gets the top results).
SO... anyone care to express any opinions on this, pro or con? Now is your change to make your opinion known.
(OH... and if rating my own thread 5 stars is bad form... tough titty said the kitty...)
rsngfrce said:
Well Mark, I thought it was a very valid and interesting topic for discussion, and since you moved it here I think you agreed with me, but unfortunately, we seem to be the only two people who feel that way?
Are there users here who feel that there are OTHER users here who would be better served on OTHER Android forums? I am in no way attempting to reduce the XDA user base, but as I said, I think this is obviously the ELITE forum (which DOES NOT necessarily mean exclusionary), but to my mind at least, many users here who likely have their minds on higher things than answering relatively simple questions, which might be more welcome on OTHER Android forums. OR... I could be wrong... as I mentioned, I have spent little time on other Android forums, but I have noticed that certain Google searches I make return top results from forums OTHER than XDA (though GENERALLY I find XDA gets the top results).
SO... anyone care to express any opinions on this, pro or con? Now is your change to make your opinion known.
(OH... and if rating my own thread 5 stars is bad form... tough titty said the kitty...)
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Well I'm new here myself and I've found it's relatively easy to find information here. The forums seems pretty active. It's a lot better than Bitcointalk that's for sure.. I haven't seen a bigger cesspool of trolls of fud anywhere on the new lol
As I've been here for about 3 and a half years (roughly a year as just a visitor) and am a staff member here, I'm clearly leaning more towards XDA being the best Android forum.
Before I found my way to XDA, I had signed up to a fair few other Android forums (being a mixture of general Android and some more development focused) and for some reason I just didn't stick around. Some of the forums were simply a mess but others weren't too bad. Most of the time, I didn't become active on those forums purely because it didn't feel right, I guess.
In regards to general questions, there's definitely a place for them here. Obviously we are more focused on development than general Android questions but we'll still support those anyway.
If you look through any of the device forums you'll notice that the majority of questions are normally about rooting/unlocking the boot loader of that particular device but there are still a lot of standard questions being asked as well.
With you not getting answers to your questions, it's more likely due to not being in an active enough forum or not being seen by the right people rather than people not answering purely because it's not as technical as other questions might be.
KidCarter93 said:
As I've been here for about 3 and a half years (roughly a year as just a visitor) and am a staff member here, I'm clearly leaning more towards XDA being the best Android forum.
Before I found my way to XDA, I had signed up to a fair few other Android forums (being a mixture of general Android and some more development focused) and for some reason I just didn't stick around. Some of the forums were simply a mess but others weren't too bad. Most of the time, I didn't become active on those forums purely because it didn't feel right, I guess.
In regards to general questions, there's definitely a place for them here. Obviously we are more focused on development than general Android questions but we'll still support those anyway.
If you look through any of the device forums you'll notice that the majority of questions are normally about rooting/unlocking the boot loader of that particular device but there are still a lot of standard questions being asked as well.
With you not getting answers to your questions, it's more likely due to not being in an active enough forum or not being seen by the right people rather than people not answering purely because it's not as technical as other questions might be.
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As I said from the beginning, it was obvious to me very quickly that XDA was far and away the BEST Android forum. That is why I chose it and though I did register on one or two other forums, I have rarely ever visited them (other than, as I mentioned, through Google searches).
For best discussion purposes, I don't think we should focus on my specific issues with getting questions answered (even though they did somewhat provoke this thread). I have a Sprint Galaxy S4, not an unpopular phone or inactive forum, and I feel I am able to express my issues relatively well. However, I finally left that forum with my question, having gotten nowhere (though my issue is VERY unusual) and went to the general Galaxy S4 forum, and received the best help I have received from a user from outside the USA who was totally unfamiliar with Sprint system software, but made general recommendations that I found greatly helpful. However, I am just one person and I digress somewhat...
I would think it would be fair to say that XDA is NOT the best Android forum for users who want to be spoon-fed (unless, perhaps, they limit themselves to N00B friendly threads)... I am personally not as annoyed by these types of people as many are, but I certainly see many here who are (how often do you see, "read the OP")... I was recently following a thread where a new user kept being referred to the OP, even though clearly it WAS NOT answering his question (which was outside of my personal knowledge, though I did try). Perhaps there are better Android forums for these types of people (not referring to the person in the last example) than XDA?
OR... maybe just send them to one of zepplinrox' threads :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=32472429&postcount=15372
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=32475760&postcount=15374
All forums are good since they are all providing free tutorials which help the users .
The only advantage xda has is that the OWNERS do their best to keep the forum up , thing which require a good paid server and monthly payments .. other forum owners simply do not afford paying for the fees each month from the simple reason that once the visitors are getting big in numbers the forum server also do require some server updates . So thanks XDA owners for keeping this forum up !!
alin razvan said:
...The only advantage xda has is that the OWNERS do their best to keep the forum up...
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WOW... you're leaving yourself a little wide open with that comment I think...
(No offense intended...)
People seem to forget XDA is not a support forum. It never has been.
As the motto says: "For Developers, By Developers".
the_scotsman said:
People seem to forget XDA is not a support forum. It never has been.
As the motto says: "For Developers, By Developers".
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Now that's the kind of strong opinion I was looking for! :good: (Whether we choose to agree or disagree...)
the_scotsman said:
People seem to forget XDA is not a support forum. It never has been.
As the motto says: "For Developers, By Developers".
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Actually, that was exactly the response I wanted to hear when I started this thread (and from a MOD too!). It is not for me to say whether that is right or wrong (or for anyone else to say, IMO), everyone is entitled to their opinion, that is why I started this thread. But I guess I am interested in what percentage of users here feel that way? I am SURE it is a larger percentage than at other Android forums. However, that may be made somewhat irrelevant by this forum having (I AM ASSUMING) a larger user base than the other Android forums, so when that percentage is removed, there are still more users here interested in supporting others. And, of course, I am not saying this is or is not a support forum. Opinions are what I want! :good:
(TOTALLY IRRELEVANT QUESTION for the_scotsman, haggis muncher from Australia: I go to the Scottish Highland Gathering & Games in Pleasanton California every year and I am mystified as to how the didgeridoo seems to have become a Scottish instrument... know anything about this?)
rsngfrce said:
(TOTALLY IRRELEVANT QUESTION for the_scotsman, haggis muncher from Australia: I go to the Scottish Highland Gathering & Games in Pleasanton California every year and I am mystified as to how the didgeridoo seems to have become a Scottish instrument... know anything about this?)
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hah! I have no idea to be honest! Seems to be a sort of link between Scottish bands using didgeridoos for some reason...perhaps because they sound good played together with bagpipes :good: