Related
So I just switched from my old but faithful Razr2 to a Samsung moment, and this is my first time owning an Andoid device.
The platform is definitely very entertaining with all of its apps... but in the end that's all it really has, APPS (same with the iphone).
The reality is that WP7 brings a whole new layer to the smartphone category, and that is Microsoft office. Why shouldn't I be able to do my work off the couch? All I can do with my Moment is have fun and maybe exchange some e-mails,but it does not have any business functionality which is what will make WP7 special. Once Microsoft is able to develop its APP store, it will have the best of both worlds, Business and Entertainment, which is somethinmg neither Apple or Google has at the moment.
I agree.
It must also be mentioned that MS platforms have always gotten done games right. This thing is already shaping up to give the PSP a run for it's money.
You're not using the right apps then. Or you're in a strange line of work.
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
my personal view
Android has no business functionability ?
Give me a break ! I've been a windows mobile user over 10 years and all I got was breaking my nerves and endless waits for basic functionability !!! I can do miracles blazing fast with android and I am never going back to windows platform again. I guess u didn't 'play' with Android enough.
My office is always in my pocket and syncs with my Linux laptop and windows desktop over the air perfectly and on an instant. And guess what ? I never need to reboot my android phone! Neither I wait 5 secs for the phone panel to come up whenever I want to dial. I had so many windows mobile devices (first was Jornada 720 in 1997 and last was HTC touch pro). All were crawling and I could do far less from what I can do with my Android phone.
Sent from Phone btw (HTC desire)
blaiz123 said:
So I just switched from my old but faithful Razr2 to a Samsung moment, and this is my first time owning an Andoid device.
The platform is definitely very entertaining with all of its apps... but in the end that's all it really has, APPS (same with the iphone).
The reality is that WP7 brings a whole new layer to the smartphone category, and that is Microsoft office. Why shouldn't I be able to do my work off the couch? All I can do with my Moment is have fun and maybe exchange some e-mails,but it does not have any business functionality which is what will make WP7 special. Once Microsoft is able to develop its APP store, it will have the best of both worlds, Business and Entertainment, which is somethinmg neither Apple or Google has at the moment.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Run Zune software on a corporate PC to sync your phone. I don't think so.
You're describing WM6.5, and hopefully WP8, but not WP7.
awechris said:
Android has no business functionability ?
Give me a break ! I've been a windows mobile user over 10 years and all I got was breaking my nerves and endless waits for basic functionability !!! I can do miracles blazing fast with android and I am never going back to windows platform again. I guess u didn't 'play' with Android enough.
My office is always in my pocket and syncs with my Linux laptop and windows desktop over the air perfectly and on an instant. And guess what ? I never need to reboot my android phone! Neither I wait 5 secs for the phone panel to come up whenever I want to dial. I had so many windows mobile devices (first was Jornada 720 in 1997 and last was HTC touch pro). All were crawling and I could do far less from what I can do with my Android phone.
Sent from Phone btw (HTC desire)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i dont want to bash windows i really dont because i used them for awhile; however, windows 6.5 and previous version didnt work well. i restarted countless times with my TP2. it became such a hassle that after awhile i try to use the lightest custom roms just to do texting and calls and still i freeze and restart. seeing that things may be different with WP7 but i spent enough money on something for many years that didnt do a great job on there OS, shot, i think the Symbian OS did a better job. there are other OS sellers that are bringing great innovation, customibility, and stability, these are the things that i believe average users want; consequently, im going back to android (G2 when it comes) because it gave me these 3 things and more. just my opinion but WP7 may not be all what its cracked out to be.
Idocuments to go, and open office do the exact same thing as office mobile.
CSMR said:
Run Zune software on a corporate PC to sync your phone. I don't think so.
You're describing WM6.5, and hopefully WP8, but not WP7.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well a lot of companies have allowed iTunes so that people can use iPhones so they will work out a way to use the Zune software.
Why would you need the Zune software? You can use exchange to sync and then sharepoint to share documents.
^16gb of data, yeah right.
vetvito said:
^16gb of data, yeah right.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, you don't have to store music and videos on your corporate PC.
What about my 4gb powerpoint file?
vetvito said:
What about my 4gb powerpoint file?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I work with Powerpoint all the time, never seen a beast like that. I'd say you are doing something wrong.
That I'm limited to email and Sharepoint to get files on my phone though is a bummer.
Right now, you wouldn't really need the Zune client on your work PC as the only syncing that Zune does is media. If you do somehow have a 4GB ppt file (I dunno if WP7 would even support opening it) you'd be best off hopping on WiFi and grabbing it from sharepoint or something. I would really question any scenario where a 4GB ppt file would exist and even then, why you would need it on your phone.
vangrieg said:
I work with Powerpoint all the time, never seen a beast like that. I'd say you are doing something wrong.
That I'm limited to email and Sharepoint to get files on my phone though is a bummer.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Really hoping they have Office Web Apps/SkyDrive.
Doing something wrong? Embedding and linking files is wrong?
I and a lot of other people actually use all the features of Powerpoint. Including but not limited to adding our own videos, adding an entire website, music files, intro's, etc,etc...all laid out perfectly on slides that make a point.
WM open these files with ease, a lot files just didn't play in the pp on the mobile version though.
RustyGrom said:
Really hoping they have Office Web Apps/SkyDrive.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That would be great but that scenario isn't supported. There is a workaround though - you can download files from web in IE as far as I know, and thus can have a web server set up on your PC that will let you transfer files directly, or upload them to Skydrive and then download "manually" from there. But that would be a pain for 4GB files anyway.
vetvito said:
Doing something wrong? Embedding and linking files is wrong?
I and a lot of other people actually use all the features of Powerpoint. Including but not limited to adding our own videos, adding an entire website, music files, intro's, etc,etc...all laid out perfectly on slides that make a point.
WM open these files with ease, a lot files just didn't play in the pp on the mobile version though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't like not having the USB storage functionality either. One of the things that irks me about the direction of wp7. Unlike multitasking and c&p, I don't think this one is coming unless there's alot of fuss about it (which I doubt is going to happen from the general consumer).
But it does seem very odd to have a 4gb presentation. You're supposed to be using the slides as a visual guide not some kind of data storage. Why would you embed the video into the presentation rather than just being a link? And why would you need to transfer some big video to the phone if you're just working on the ppt?
For remote control presentation. Plus I don't have to look at the presentation screen.
Click to play or play at entrance is much better than a simple link. It follows suit with the entire presentation. This is just my opinion though.
awechris said:
Android has no business functionability ?
Give me a break ! I've been a windows mobile user over 10 years and all I got was breaking my nerves and endless waits for basic functionability !!! I can do miracles blazing fast with android and I am never going back to windows platform again. I guess u didn't 'play' with Android enough.
My office is always in my pocket and syncs with my Linux laptop and windows desktop over the air perfectly and on an instant. And guess what ? I never need to reboot my android phone! Neither I wait 5 secs for the phone panel to come up whenever I want to dial. I had so many windows mobile devices (first was Jornada 720 in 1997 and last was HTC touch pro). All were crawling and I could do far less from what I can do with my Android phone.
Sent from Phone btw (HTC desire)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
blaze7810 said:
i dont want to bash windows i really dont because i used them for awhile; however, windows 6.5 and previous version didnt work well. i restarted countless times with my TP2. it became such a hassle that after awhile i try to use the lightest custom roms just to do texting and calls and still i freeze and restart. seeing that things may be different with WP7 but i spent enough money on something for many years that didnt do a great job on there OS, shot, i think the Symbian OS did a better job. there are other OS sellers that are bringing great innovation, customibility, and stability, these are the things that i believe average users want; consequently, im going back to android (G2 when it comes) because it gave me these 3 things and more. just my opinion but WP7 may not be all what its cracked out to be.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Using Windows 6.5 (and previous versions...) as evidence of how "terrible" WP7 is going to be is not really a logical way of thinking... Of course the new OS is going to have some similarities to the old versions but the smoothness with which the WP7 OS runs can't be compared to Windows mobile 6.5. Also, to awechris, I really don't see how syncing your cellphone to your Linux laptop makes it a "great" business phone. Do you know about some obscure android office package that I don't know about? Because to me a business phone in the modern world without access to some sort of Word, Powerpoint, and Excel application, is not a businessphone at all. I want to be able to write a report while sitting on the beach (with a physical keyboard), and that is something that WP7 will be able to offer me in the near future.
blaiz123 said:
Using Windows 6.5 (and previous versions...) as evidence of how "terrible" WP7 is going to be is not really a logical way of thinking... Of course the new OS is going to have some similarities to the old versions but the smoothness with which the WP7 OS runs can't be compared to Windows mobile 6.5. Also, to awechris, I really don't see how syncing your cellphone to your Linux laptop makes it a "great" business phone. Do you know about some obscure android office package that I don't know about? Because to me a business phone in the modern world without access to some sort of Word, Powerpoint, and Excel application, is not a businessphone at all. I want to be able to write a report while sitting on the beach (with a physical keyboard), and that is something that WP7 will be able to offer me in the near future.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
<sarcasm>You all have it wrong! I can just make calls from my Netbook via Google Voice and edit all the powerpoints the way they were meant to be edited! </sarcasm>
Hello.
Few years ago, there were hundreds of different OS for mobile phones, everyone with its pros and cons.
But with these phones, we only could send/recieve calls and sms, take photos and crappy videos and store some music.
every phone had its own file extensions and file compatibilities, only java was able to unify some programms.
The browser were also unusable, despite the small screens, and high costs of internet, there was no compatibility with activex and some frameworks.
I can remember, I had a Samsung sghP910 with 320x240 screen and Nvidia chipset, enough to do many things, but completely disabled by the bad Samsung OS.
Later there was the unification of mobile phones with PDA with Windows Mobile.
I think this was the biggest step in history for mobile phones.
I bought the HTC Touch 3G WM6.1, and I could virtually do anything I could do on my computer. Download programs, remotely connect with my office PC, and surf the internet without any compatibility issues.
for any problem or need, ther was a program on the internet to download!
The only big issue, was the small resolution display 320x240, that complicated my life a little bit.
Now i was searching for something newer, that could totally replace my netbook, I was thinking about some HTC with this brand new WP7 but today I tried out the new HTC trophy of my girlfriend, and was really disappointed!!!!
I mean, very high resolution that could finally activate some remote desktop function, fast processor and relative lightweight.
I saw that junk OS of Iphone, made for rich and useless people, the nokia junk Symbian that I'm actually using for work, and that new IPhone-like Android, that is here today, but maybe not tomorrow.
Blackberry is another useless junk, my sister got it.
I'm searching for some desktop remplacement handheld, but the new WP7 is back to this kind of Multimedia useless stuff, no SD support for upgrade, and this whole windows, that only makes you take more time to find the right application (like the start in WM6.5)
I saw that instead to make a step forward, Microsoft mad a big big step backward!!!!
I'm asking myself why, because handheld should be every-time more like Desktops, but like this, you're bound to stupid aplications, and you have to pay for it.
No file-manager, no desktop, no start button and no task manager, nothing!!
Someone can tell me if there is a possibility that with some tweaks, it would be posible to go back to real Windows Mobile???
If you want all that, buy yourself a HD2 and run WM or Android. Has RDP, file-managers galore, task managers, useless SD support and those all important crashes and slow-downs all the time.
While I agree, the lack of RDP on WP7 is disheartening, judging from the number of quasi-remote-desktop apps available there is actually a real want for this. So I have no doubt it will become available sooner rather than later.
Yes it would be possble, go to your nearest provider and purchase a 6.5 enabled device.
A mobile OS should absolutely not evolve to look and act like a desktop OS. That's what windows mobile was. And it was awful. A mobile OS should be really what wp7 and iOS is; quick, easy to use, and accelerate what you're doing, not hinder it.
XxAndrexX said:
No file-manager, no desktop, no start button and no task manager, nothing!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah see this is exactly the reason I switched to wp7. I was so sick of tweaking and managing. and tweaking. The endless tweaking and managing. My mobile device should not give me a headache whenever I use it and watch it lumber through its operations. Wp7 has no task manger to keep an eye on, no tweaks needed, no file manager to navigate (what do you need one for... seriously), and it's awesome. Seemless and quick. And what's the purpose of the start button? Why do you want one? What do you want it to navigate you to?
I'm really having a hard time understanding why so many people don't research what wp7 is before getting it. It is not windows mobile. Those days are gone. A mobile OS should be what iOS and wp7 is, quick and painless. Let me do whatever I want without having to worry about an app now running in the background or what my memory is at.
Why not just get an HD2 or similar that is designed to run "real" Windows Mobile and not buy an OS that obviously does not suit your needs?
I ave had several wm phones and was a fan, however, windows mobile as it was nearly finished off microsoft in the mobile Market, wp7 may save them
Right now there is nothing more to do for me than wait for an upgrade and see how MS will act. WP7 is a great foundation.
But yes, smartphones - opposed to dumphones - should replicate most of PC abilities.
They should not act like racing horse with 3 legs - and this is what WP7 is right now.
I am able to compromise my needs to wait now. I can't wait however for very long, year is too much, to get features instead of their basic forms like maps, word etc.
So for me, if MS will not make it soon and accelerate development, bring the features an make it capable, I am off to Android.
But now I wait, I want to see MS cards open.
doministry said:
I am able to compromise my needs to wait now. I can't wait however for very long, year is too much, to get features instead of their basic forms like maps, word etc.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Which features are you after exactly?
I think you get me wrong. I mean, its very good that everything is getting "easier", more beautiful and so on, but normally they should add tools, without quitting the old good ones.
with my touch 3g, 6.1 i have to use the pen to go through the menus, its complicated, but i know where to find my applications, and configurations, like windows.
But the worst thing, i heard that's a whole new OS and no longer compatible with cab files.
that means, if i want some new programs, maybe i've got to pay for them, and the old ones are lost.
am I right???
XxAndrexX said:
I think you get me wrong. I mean, its very good that everything is getting "easier", more beautiful and so on, but normally they should add tools, without quitting the old good ones.
with my touch 3g, 6.1 i have to use the pen to go through the menus, its complicated, but i know where to find my applications, and configurations, like windows.
But the worst thing, i heard that's a whole new OS and no longer compatible with cab files.
that means, if i want some new programs, maybe i've got to pay for them, and the old ones are lost.
am I right???
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes. WP7 is made "from scratch" so no, no .cab files.
Everything has to be purchased from Marketplace.
emigrating said:
Which features are you after exactly?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Which? Well: marketplace support for all users, bing maps supporting all countries at least in Europe, PC Usb transfer of all documents, multitasking, video send by email, word at least on the level of docs to go featurewise, greater openeness for developers, and some other stuff.
doministry said:
Yes. WP7 is made "from scratch" so no, no .cab files.
Everything has to be purchased from Marketplace.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
aha...
And you like this new feature?
Instead of downloading third-party freeware???
what does it means made from scratch?
XxAndrexX said:
aha...
And you like this new feature?
Instead of downloading third-party freeware???
what does it means made from scratch?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To be honest the app distribution is not a problem for me right now.
From scratch = from the beginning. Not based on WM6.5.
doministry said:
To be honest the app distribution is not a problem for me right now.
From scratch = from the beginning. Not based on WM6.5.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hmmm maybe i'll wait until they'll put Intel Atom instead of Arm, and run normal Window 7, because even if I buy somenthing like HD2, it will be sooner or later discontinued damn
WP7 is super system, till you use it as M$ engineers thought you would be.
I mean there's plenty things missing. Many people will say, who needs tethering, for example. And those many will be satisfied with other advantages of WP7. But me, who need tethering all the time, I'm stuck. I'm really keen on WP7, it's speed, live sync, zune sync,... but who will tell me when tethering will be possible. I didn't even consider such phone systen doesn't have tethering.
Now I spent whole week hacking the HD7 phone with Chevron unlocker and DFRouter xap. As I'm reading the thread about tethering I must be lucky that I didn't mess it all up cause some can't connect to zune after that.
So, as sbdy said, if you use your phone for most phone obvious things, than WP7 is really great. But if you need a bit more, than you're stuck. So I'm probably selling my HD7 and waiting for Nokia MeeGo device. There I think I can expect more as computer device and a bunch of things WP7 doesn't have: tethering(USB and WiFi), FM transmitter, open platform, video calling. That is what I can think of what matters to me.
Microsoft, why do you care so much that we're running desktop applications on our Surfaces? It's clear that you put a ton of effort into RT 8.1's lockdown.
We're running desktop applications because we like your device. We're giving your device added value. People have been avoiding Surface RT because it can't run most programs they love, and we're trying to alleviate that.
I know that you're reading this forum, and that this will all on deaf ears. But I have to try.
Help over here too. If we get a lot of people to rant. They would have to listen..
http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/...ommunity/4c6c2e37-fdca-496f-a40a-158062b533da
Making my paragraph lol.
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta
A lot of people dont understand the finality of Windows RT.
RT is jusy like Android or iOS, a tablet OS not a desktop OS. For x86 applications, use a W8 tablet with x86 architecture.
Personnaly on my PC i use a lot the desktop, on my Surface i only use ModernUI, it's made for, fast and clean.
Caramel said:
A lot of people dont understand the finality of Windows RT.
RT is jusy like Android or iOS, a tablet OS not a desktop OS. For x86 applications, use a W8 tablet with x86 architecture.
Personnaly on my PC i use a lot the desktop, on my Surface i only use ModernUI, it's made for, fast and clean.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
RT is far closer to Windows 8 than to Android or iOS. Android and iOS don't have huge chunks of API and features that are flat out locked out seemingly for product tier purposes.
Comparing RT and iOS/Android is comparing apples and oranges, it just doesn't work.
Possibly even more to the point, Android - notably, the most successful mobile OS on the planet, by a long shot - not only supports arbitrary code and (frequently) rooting, custom OSes, etc, it also supports doing things like chrooting to a (more traditional) Linux environment.
Microsoft has managed to create something that is most of a desktop OS, and yet is arguably *more* locked down than the most popular mobile OS. I do not understand why they would have chosen to do this, or why, after we managed to defeat much of the lockdown, they decided it was worth developer and tester time to re-instate it...
EDIT: Hell, this is an opportunity for Microsoft to achive some positive market differentiation with regard to Apple. Apple is constantly re-locking iOS, breaking jailbreaks as fast as they can. Microsoft is in a great position here to say "while we lock the OS down by default on RT to ensure the best possible security and user experience, we also welcome the tinkerers who are enthusiastic about the Windows platform and desire a deeper level of access." or something similar. Position themselves, and Windows RT, as the OS option that won't turn around and bite its most enthusiastic fans on the ass.
#SurfaceHasNoPurpose
Unlock the Surface!
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta
xWolf13 said:
#SurfaceHasNoPurpose
Unlock the Surface!
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
don't you mean unlock windows RT? There are more RT devices than just the surface RT and there are 2 surfaces of which only 1 is locked...
SixSixSevenSeven said:
don't you mean unlock windows RT? There are more RT devices than just the surface RT and there are 2 surfaces of which only 1 is locked...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ehh. Yeah lol
Caramel said:
A lot of people dont understand the finality of Windows RT.
RT is jusy like Android or iOS, a tablet OS not a desktop OS. For x86 applications, use a W8 tablet with x86 architecture.
Personnaly on my PC i use a lot the desktop, on my Surface i only use ModernUI, it's made for, fast and clean.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes.. 100% correct. I wouldn't say MS "locked out" anything from RT.. They just didn't port it. And with good reason.. RT has a targeted set of use cases so it doesnt make much sense for them to port over things that a fraction of the RT audience would use. Full "thick" apps are legacy and I feel like the desktop will be gone once its legacy requirements are for certain apps. Remember, RT isn't just a recompile of windows for ARM.. It was an entire kernel level and up overhaul from win32 that they made to look like traditional win8. Sure, some code/runtime libraries may have been ported over but certain components (e.g. domain support/netlogon) probably have deep ties into the kernel and other parts of the OS that just didn't make sense to support, so greying out a button in the UI was a quick fix.
Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
libbycm said:
Yes.. 100% correct. I wouldn't say MS "locked out" anything from RT.. They just didn't port it. And with good reason.. RT has a targeted set of use cases so it doesnt make much sense for them to port over things that a fraction of the RT audience would use. Full "thick" apps are legacy and I feel like the desktop will be gone once its legacy requirements are for certain apps. Remember, RT isn't just a recompile of windows for ARM.. It was an entire kernel level and up overhaul from win32 that they made to look like traditional win8. Sure, some code/runtime libraries may have been ported over but certain components (e.g. domain support/netlogon) probably have deep ties into the kernel and other parts of the OS that just didn't make sense to support, so greying out a button in the UI was a quick fix.
Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
RT is essentially a direct port of Windows 8. The only notable thing it doesn't have is full DirectX or OpenGL. It's not an overhaul, it is quite literally just a recompile targeting ARM.
The reason it doesn't have domain support is because it's running at the level of a home basic copy. There are hacks to get the tablet to join a domain, and they've been discussed here (in fact, I believe that mamaich was the one to get them to work originally)
Don't spout a bunch of crap unless you actually know what you're talking about.
Myriachan said:
Microsoft, why do you care so much that we're running desktop applications on our Surfaces? It's clear that you put a ton of effort into RT 8.1's lockdown.
We're running desktop applications because we like your device. We're giving your device added value. People have been avoiding Surface RT because it can't run most programs they love, and we're trying to alleviate that.
I know that you're reading this forum, and that this will all on deaf ears. But I have to try.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When it comes to pure productivity, Desktop is better than Modern-UI, because it's apps are suited for precision input devices. That's why Photoshop works so well on Surface Pro and Office 2013 works well on our Surface RTs- when it comes to work, we use our cover keyboards and toucpads/mice and get the job done. I do think that there should be some more openness about the RT Desktop so that users could install simple Desktop tools to accompany this productive side of Windows 8 - the Desktop, like WinRAR (I don't like being taken to touch friendly UI when I work with files, and I prefer drag & drop while doing so anyway) and, perhaps, something like Photoshop Elements. Of course, Desktop app selection could be limited to what Ms approves via Store, but I just think that Desktop is not a thing to be gotten rid of, like some of you would prefer. I think it is to be embraced as an environment of sit-down productivity, and allowing some baby apps to run on our RTs would only be a good thing.
Desktop computer "sit-down productivity" professionals, on the other hand, should have an option of classic Start menu available, but that's a different topic.
I truly don't understand the obsession with "classic Start menu" - from a productivity standpoint, the 8.1 Start screen is just as good as the Win7 Start menu; you hit the Windows button, type a few letters, and hit Enter (8.0 isn't *quite* as good because results are segregated into "Apps" and "Settings" and it takes a lot of extra keystrokes to move between them). With that said, you'll note that one of the desktop apps for RT 8.0 is the open-source ClassicStartMenu...
Myriachan said:
Microsoft, why do you care so much that we're running desktop applications on our Surfaces? It's clear that you put a ton of effort into RT 8.1's lockdown.
We're running desktop applications because we like your device. We're giving your device added value. People have been avoiding Surface RT because it can't run most programs they love, and we're trying to alleviate that.
I know that you're reading this forum, and that this will all on deaf ears. But I have to try.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't want Microsoft to "leave the RT hacking community alone." I want them to openly support it. I want Microsoft to open up the ARM desktop to third party apps, including unsigned user generated content.
Let's face it: RT has barely made a dent in the market place and what enthusiasm third party hardware manufacturers may have had for the platform is quickly drying up. The Windows Store is a barren wasteland compared to the Apple App market or the Google Play store. Open up the desktop to developers and you'll see a bunch of popular and niche, open source projects ported to the platform. It would add tremendous value to the ARM architecture.
I recently got an RT tablet very cheaply thanks to a hookup who attended a Microsoft conference. It was my first real experience with Windows 8 and I found that it exceeded all my expectations except for two areas: a lack of Metro apps, and the inability to install third party desktop apps.
Having a machine with a fully functional desktop environment but not being able to install additional desktop applications is a bit like being allowed to chew your food but not swallow it.
I do hope someone from Microsoft is listening, and pays heed, because for me, at least, my Surface RT will likely be my last RT device if the desktop remains locked down.
dsf3g said:
I don't want Microsoft to "leave the RT hacking community alone." I want them to openly support it. I want Microsoft to open up the ARM desktop to third party apps, including unsigned user generated content.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This would also be an acceptable solution =) They could add a BIOS option to change the Secure Boot policy GUID, with appropriate visible warnings about how the ability to run non-Windows Store applications also potentially opens up your system to malware.
Their current policy is very much, "oh this nice Windows 8 desktop environment... that's just for us, sorry".
If they'd allow desktop applications on the Windows Store, that'd also be nice.
I've been thinking of getting a tablet and I've been eyeing the Windows 8 tablets. Honestly, I like Android, but all of their tablets disappoint (I don't want a Nexus tablet or an iPad for that matter).
I keep hearing that RT marketplace is very small, that there are only "a few apps", etc. Is this true? I am not a heavy app user, plus I'll always have my phone (LG G2 btw, and it's amazing).
I use W8 on my desktop and I like it - but that's obviously the "full" version. I would also like to ask for a tablet recommendation (Nokia 2520 looks FANTASTIC by the way). I don't want to give more than $500 for a tablet, so then generally RT tablets come to mind. My only other requirement is at least a full HD screen. What would you suggest?
Deusdies said:
I've been thinking of getting a tablet and I've been eyeing the Windows 8 tablets. Honestly, I like Android, but all of their tablets disappoint (I don't want a Nexus tablet or an iPad for that matter).
I keep hearing that RT marketplace is very small, that there are only "a few apps", etc. Is this true? I am not a heavy app user, plus I'll always have my phone (LG G2 btw, and it's amazing).
I use W8 on my desktop and I like it - but that's obviously the "full" version. I would also like to ask for a tablet recommendation (Nokia 2520 looks FANTASTIC by the way). I don't want to give more than $500 for a tablet, so then generally RT tablets come to mind. My only other requirement is at least a full HD screen. What would you suggest?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well if its for your criteria of a full Desktop you are right - you can't do this with Windows RT, thus with no RT tablet. But as im using my Surface as a thin client, remoting my home pc or my server for all the stuff i can't do on my tablet it's quite wonderful. And the Windows Store has been incresing ever since, last week i reset me tablet and did some serious store browsing to get up to date with available apps and i probably couldn't find anthing that's not there - development environment and compilers excluded of course. But as far as i can see - not knowing your area of expertise - there is everything you would need to get a basic start, though some apps will cost a dollar/euro or two. Whatsmore, there is the 8.0 jailbreak, if you are willing not to go to 8.1 yet (don't know if the surface 2 gets delivered with 8.1 and you would need to downgrade) - in this case there are already a lot of ported desktop apps available.
Jailbreak and ported apps can be found here:
Jailbreak
Ported Desktop Apps
As for the Nokia 2520, it definitely looks good! Haven't actually seen this one come up, looks promising.
To sum it up: if what you like is the new Modern UI interface you can definitely go with an RT tablet for there are plenty of apps available. For the desktop that's a whole other story, as I've described (jailbreak/ported apps) - if you are willing to compromise, you will get another added benefit from this cool piece of hard- and software.
The decision which RT tablet to use should be yours i guess, there are quite a few out there, but in a matter of usability I deem them all to work the same.
Greetings,
Fasin
The app market you can check out on your full windows 8 machine no problem. I do personally think its a bit limited.
Windows RT is for all intents and purposes windows 8 running on ARM instead of x86 processors. This does bring a few limitations, and then microsoft impose 2 more.
ARM and x86 processors are rather obviously not compatible. x86 programs cannot run on ARM and vice versa normally (you could emulate an ARM CPU on x86 and vice versa but thats slow).
Most "metro" apps are compiled in both ARM and x86 versions. There are a few which are not for whatever reason. But most should be available in both stores. The vast majority of metro apps use C# or VB.net anyway which dont output native ARM or x86 machine code and instead use .NET bytecode (the .NET runtime is present on both windows 8 and windows RT). VLC is the only major exception I can think of right now, although that hasn't been publicly released yet and ARM is planned (right now its x86 only).
Just about all desktop software for windows is x86. It won't run on ARM. If its open source it may be portable however the only compiler capable of targetting Windows RT is MSVC whereas alot of software can only be built in alternative compilers. There is a list (already linked in the post above) of software which people have managed to recompile for Windows RT.
Then 2 microsoft imposed restrictions.
Drivers. Although windows tablets all have full USB host abilities, you do of course require drivers for all USB devices you want to use. Windows are not allowing 3rd party drivers on ARM, so if your USB device isn't listed on their compatibility chart it won't work. Mice, keyboards, USB storage, some printers and even the xbox 360 controller work.
Desktop requiring signed binaries. This is a major restriction which serves no purpose. All software run on windows RT must have a digital signature attached which will be checked before execution. If the signature is missing it won't run it. For store apps this isn't a problem as signing the app is part of the release process. However microsoft don't want us to use the desktop on windows RT devices, they havent released any way to add the signature to software running on the traditional desktop. MS Office, internet explorer and all the other software that runs in desktop mode and is preinstalled on RT has been signed because microsoft wrote it and have the tools to do so. We don't. There is a jailbreak which can remove this restriction and enable people to run desktop applications (either written in .NET or compiled for ARM) but it doesn't work on windows RT 8.1 which the lumia tablet and surface 2 have (they cannot be downgraded to 8.0). An 8.1 jailbreak is coming soon.
Whether the RT is suitable or not depends on your needs. If all your going to do is surf the web, well its full blown internet explorer 11 not some sucky mobile browser, it even has flash (but not java, which you should not confuse for javascript. However iOS and android dont have java either).
You get full RDP support in windows RT. So you can view the screen of and interact with your real windows 8 desktop remotely on the tablet. In the ported apps section for jailbroken devices there is also VNC which does the same thing but is cross platform unlike RDP which is supposed to just be windows (however there is an RDP server for linux too so if you have a linux machine, install the RDP server, remote access it on non jailbroken RT device no problem).
You get microsoft office. Its missing plugins and macros. But otherwise, its a full office suite. Its more than android or iOS have.
Being close enough to normal windows, you get a full file browser which supports network mapped drives and USB etc as you do on your desktop. Android can have file browsers, but they usually arent as good as a desktop file browser. iOS doesnt have a file browser at all.
With the file browser you have support for USB storage. Got some photos on a memory stick, plug it in, you can view them. iOS cannot do this. Some android phones can, some can't (your LG should be able to).
True there are not as many apps as iOS or android. But both iOS and android had low apps counts when they first released and according to what little public data there is, windows after 1 year is about on par with both android and iOS app counts after 1 year. It takes time (but will it take too long is a better question)
Thank you both very much. Very well thought out responses. I was debating between getting the Dell Venue 11 Pro (full Windows 8) or the Nokia 2520 being as that they're the same price, but I have honestly been convinced to get the RT version.
Fasin said:
Whatsmore, there is the 8.0 jailbreak, if you are willing not to go to 8.1 yet (don't know if the surface 2 gets delivered with 8.1 and you would need to downgrade) - in this case there are already a lot of ported desktop apps available.
Jailbreak and ported apps can be found here:
Jailbreak
Ported Desktop Apps
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh. My. Gott.
I had no idea that this even existed. I think this is pretty much what settles it - I'm definitely getting an RT. Notepad++? Python? 7-zip? Amazing! Vielen dank!
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Then 2 microsoft imposed restrictions.
Drivers. Although windows tablets all have full USB host abilities, you do of course require drivers for all USB devices you want to use. Windows are not allowing 3rd party drivers on ARM, so if your USB device isn't listed on their compatibility chart it won't work. Mice, keyboards, USB storage, some printers and even the xbox 360 controller work.
Desktop requiring signed binaries. This is a major restriction which serves no purpose. All software run on windows RT must have a digital signature attached which will be checked before execution. If the signature is missing it won't run it. For store apps this isn't a problem as signing the app is part of the release process. However microsoft don't want us to use the desktop on windows RT devices, they havent released any way to add the signature to software running on the traditional desktop. MS Office, internet explorer and all the other software that runs in desktop mode and is preinstalled on RT has been signed because microsoft wrote it and have the tools to do so. We don't. There is a jailbreak which can remove this restriction and enable people to run desktop applications (either written in .NET or compiled for ARM) but it doesn't work on windows RT 8.1 which the lumia tablet and surface 2 have (they cannot be downgraded to 8.0). An 8.1 jailbreak is coming soon.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're right, that truly is an odd restriction. Perhaps they just want people to use Windows Store more and more? But from this thread it seems that Jailbreak "fixes" a lot of issues - and I didn't even know this existed until now (admittedly I wasn't into the Windows 8 on mobile devices a whole lot until now).
Yep, I think my only pseudo-concern is now gone. Thank you again both, and Nokia 2520 - here I come!
Well, the jailbreak isnt out for 8.1 and is still more limited than the bay trail in the venue 11. But its one of those things that can only go uphill from here.
My personal choice would be the venue. But thats me, not you. I do a fair bit of programming and use alot of software that just plain isnt available on RT. And I think thats the point, different devices suit different people in different ways.
BestBuy will have Surface RT for $200 in Black Friday. I'd like to buy one since it is such cheap and I can play with some ARM Win32 programs.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Well, the jailbreak isnt out for 8.1 and is still more limited than the bay trail in the venue 11. But its one of those things that can only go uphill from here.
My personal choice would be the venue. But thats me, not you. I do a fair bit of programming and use alot of software that just plain isnt available on RT. And I think thats the point, different devices suit different people in different ways.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do quite a bit of programming myself (both personally and for my work), but I can never picture myself programming on a tablet (or even a tablet/keyboard combo). That's just not what I'm getting the tablet for.
I've just read Engadget's review of Nokia 2520, which is overall positive. But I thought it would be much better than the Surface 2, and apparently (according to their review), it isn't. In fact, I thought it will have a better battery life, while in fact it has worse.
As a student I also get a 10% discount on Surface only, and I have a $25 Microsoft Store gift card that I got eons ago, so that brings the total cost for a Surface 2 down to ~$370, which is phenomenal.
It's still in between Nokia 2520 and Surface 2...
Deusdies said:
I do quite a bit of programming myself (both personally and for my work), but I can never picture myself programming on a tablet (or even a tablet/keyboard combo). That's just not what I'm getting the tablet for.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To be honest even a laptop is less than ideal - if you're used to working on a multi-monitor desktop setup then a laptop will feel restrictive.
ThorburnJ said:
To be honest even a laptop is less than ideal - if you're used to working on a multi-monitor desktop setup then a laptop will feel restrictive.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do program on a laptop with a 14" 1366*768 display. I have used much higher resolution displays though and it is certainly alot better.
ThorburnJ said:
To be honest even a laptop is less than ideal - if you're used to working on a multi-monitor desktop setup then a laptop will feel restrictive.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep... I do all of my programming on a desktop. At work 3 monitors, at home 1, but 27". So, yes, tablet is just for movies, some games, etc.
It is possible to emulate some x86 programs on RT's ARM processor, however often it will be slow. Most desired programs won't run through emulation (including utorrent, VLC, Steam, etc)
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2095934
Doesn't Microsoft forbid metro apps from having native binaries?
If so, how would you ever write something like a wii emulator on today's hardware? It would be way too slow. Perhaps two decades from now?
Rakeesh_j said:
Doesn't Microsoft forbid metro apps from having native binaries?
If so, how would you ever write something like a wii emulator on today's hardware? It would be way too slow. Perhaps two decades from now?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No...
Many "metro" apps are normal C/C++ compiled natively for the processor itself.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
No...
Many "metro" apps are normal C/C++ compiled natively for the processor itself.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh. Then what was with MS's comments that they deliberately wanted to make metro apps limited? They can't just mean in terms of being sandboxed? You can still sandbox without sacrificing utility; Android does that quite well.
Rakeesh_j said:
Oh. Then what was with MS's comments that they deliberately wanted to make metro apps limited? They can't just mean in terms of being sandboxed? You can still sandbox without sacrificing utility; Android does that quite well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
trying to start flamewars again...
SixSixSevenSeven said:
trying to start flamewars again...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, it's very much on topic. If the goal was to start a flame war, then the OP beat me to it a long time ago.
Kindly point out something an android app can do which a windows app cannot (there are some, I personally wanted to use a certain feature but until 8.1 could not, yeah 8.1 added loads more features)
Apps requiring root do not count as root is a device modification much the same way modified RT devices can do more.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Kindly point out something an android app can do which a windows app cannot (there are some, I personally wanted to use a certain feature but until 8.1 could not, yeah 8.1 added loads more features)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Honestly I don't know as I've never published any apps and I've only done very small scale development for my own uses. I'm just going by MS's commentary on where they think they went wrong with their 8 strategy, in which they indicate that they believe making apps limited in scope wasn't a mistake (effectively they believe that their marketing was the reason for RT's failure, and that it will be easier to market 2 OSes instead of 3.)
I do know however that you see some pretty complex applications on Android whereas I haven't seen anything on RT hasn't already been done better in a web browser. In fact, I've seen web browsers do things that RT will not, take for example that version of battlefield which runs in Firefox and Chrome (RT could technically do that, granted.) The most complicated emulator available for RT is for snes, which also can be done in FF and Chrome: http://www.b81.org/~tjw/smw/
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Apps requiring root do not count as root is a device modification much the same way modified RT devices can do more.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't really see it that way. Just issue an 'oem unlock' command to the device and you're golden. RT devices however by design forbid doing anything like that.
That said, the ultimate limitation in RT comes from this: RT won't run any app unless MS explicitly greenlights it. A lot of the more interesting apps (to me anyways) are ones that companies like MS and in some circumstances even Google wish didn't exist at all, like ad blockers, being able to tether without carrier permission, etc. Even so, not all of these require root and there's nothing stopping you from using them on Android.
Rakeesh_j said:
Honestly I don't know as I've never published any apps and I've only done very small scale development for my own uses. I'm just going by MS's commentary on where they think they went wrong with their 8 strategy, in which they indicate that they believe making apps limited in scope wasn't a mistake (effectively they believe that their marketing was the reason for RT's failure, and that it will be easier to market 2 OSes instead of 3.)
I do know however that you see some pretty complex applications on Android whereas I haven't seen anything on RT hasn't already been done better in a web browser. In fact, I've seen web browsers do things that RT will not, take for example that version of battlefield which runs in Firefox and Chrome (RT could technically do that, granted.) The most complicated emulator available for RT is for snes, which also can be done in FF and Chrome: http://www.b81.org/~tjw/smw/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Then if you don't know, then why are you claiming it to be so poor in comparison to android? What apps *are available* doesnt dictate what apps the system is capable of.
In 8.0 the biggest issues were lack of low level interfaces to peripherals and instead being limited to high level wrappers provided by WinRT. In 8.1 there are now WinRT wrapper classes to raw USB and bluetooth, both of which were absent in 8.0. Besides that, there isn't any OpenGL, but there is DirectX which android doesnt have and serves the same purpose.
WIndows 8 apps are perfectly capable of hosting a first person shooter such as battlefield, there is a massive difference between it being incapable and simply not been done (actually there are FPS games, but they are more inline with the crap you see on android).
Your battlefield example is entirely bull**** either way as you seemed to be arguing for android whereas android doesnt have battlefield either.
Even if microsoft ditched windows RT, the store is part of windows 8. It would still be present. Windows RT is just an ARM port of windows 8. WinRT is the so called "sandbox" store apps run in and is present on both operating systems.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Then if you don't know, then why are you claiming it to be so poor in comparison to android? What apps *are available* doesnt dictate what apps the system is capable of.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Two things:
Comments I've heard from developers
And most importantly, Microsoft's own comments
SixSixSevenSeven said:
In 8.0 the biggest issues were lack of low level interfaces to peripherals and instead being limited to high level wrappers provided by WinRT. In 8.1 there are now WinRT wrapper classes to raw USB and bluetooth, both of which were absent in 8.0. Besides that, there isn't any OpenGL, but there is DirectX which android doesnt have and serves the same purpose.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That later bit is more of a reason to not want RT. Virtually every platform out there uses OpenGL. The number of devices that use directx exclusively make up such a small percentage of the marketplace that it almost may as well not even exist. Android wouldn't gain anything at all by having it (really, no developer out there has ever said "I'd port to Android if only it supported directx,") and it really hurts that RT/WP don't have it. For this reason, any developer who says that they'll only use DirectX is shooting themselves in the foot. Microsoft is doing exactly that - too many games developers said they probably wouldn't ever bother porting anything to RT/WP because they don't want to spend all of the money on porting because the revenue gained is almost guaranteed to not be worth it. Sure, some game engines now support it, but that doesn't solve the problem of backporting their own customizations and additions to the base engine.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
WIndows 8 apps are perfectly capable of hosting a first person shooter such as battlefield, there is a massive difference between it being incapable and simply not been done (actually there are FPS games, but they are more inline with the crap you see on android).
Your battlefield example is entirely bull**** either way as you seemed to be arguing for android whereas android doesnt have battlefield either.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's probably because you missed the point entirely. It has nothing to do with whether or not battlefield is an FPS. The point is that I've seen web browsers do more impressive things than RT apps. Battlefield is merely an example of why even Chrome is more valuable to me than RT.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Even if microsoft ditched windows RT, the store is part of windows 8. It would still be present. Windows RT is just an ARM port of windows 8. WinRT is the so called "sandbox" store apps run in and is present on both operating systems.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You aren't telling me anything new here. Microsoft has done something similar more than once and we've already seen the results: It'll just go derelict and then eventually deprecated but still kept around.
I actually wouldn't be surprised if MS created an app store for win32 apps similar to what apple is doing with OSX. Their current store model is just a flat out knockoff of the ios app model (contrast to the play store model where each publisher is at their own discretion, and some people still wonder why android/play is by far more popular than the rest) so they may as well go all the way with it.
Hi,
Like you know, windows will release a beta of w9 in somes days, and they said that they'll do an hybrid system for all platform. Did you think there'll be an emulator or anything different to run somes x86 app like a "computer" ?
We have awaiting fo a while a jailbreak for 8.1, but if w9 give us the opportunity to run x86 programs it'll be better, hope they'll release this soons to take a look.
What do you think about this?
Regards
No, only metro apps will be universal, not x86 ones
mod edit
On topic. I can't see why Microsoft would give us the ability to run apps outside of the Metro sandbox. Although I am surprised that they don't try and entice the open source community into contributing to the store. We all know that they'd love to see more quality apps on there.
Hello my friends @andTab Even if "somebody" would give you the jailbreak for RT 8.1, I bet you won't be really happy with that:
Ofc it would give some great possibilities, but its not like you can run many x86-programs on JB RT, because you can only emulate it and the performance is,....
[how to say it nice],..... not optimal xD
you can hardly play games like "Heroes of Might and Magic 3" but that is the maximum. As I understand you that wouldn't be enough (plz correct me if im wrong)
But for users loving to play around and start i.e. JDownloader with a loadingtime of ~5min; or those, using a lot of pure .NET 4 programs it would be really cool.
[But most of them are happy enough with a jailbroken RT].
Why am I writing this?
I just wanted to ask you politely, if you could edit your post, because it sounds really offensive.
BUT I also wanted to be cooperative, and give you some informations...
Ontopic:
I think the hope, that ms would be nice to us, is gone...
I strongly suggest you, to dual-boot WinRT8.0-JB & WinRT8.1 !!!
joke:[until somebody tell us how to "open the bootloader" and boot for example a linux-distro. (perhaps via soldering a hardware-flasher and reflash that damn thing )]
Cheers
Blade
I removed the majority of the unnecessary and negative comments. Lets try to keep the rest of this thread on track now please.
It will be Windows 10
1 windows will work on all the devices, laptop, phone, and TAB!!!!
9 or 10, I don't have a lot of hope right now for Windows on ARM... I keep hearing rumors that unlike x86 Windows 10, the ARM version (Windows RT) is going to be "combined with windows phone" whatever that means, and loose the desktop. Sounds like a dumb-ed down phone OS to me... and nothing like what I'd want on my Surface RT, and definitely not what I'd hoped for which was basically an ARM version of the full-blown Windows 10 OS, with and unlocked dekstop, windowed store apps, etc.
But, since Microsoft hasn't actually demoed the ARM version of Threshold I guess we don't know anything for sure.
@mark manning Can you move this to General please. It should not be in DEV/Hacking
wcomhelp said:
@mark manning Can you move this to General please. It should not be in DEV/Hacking
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Moved