Related
There is nothing more annoying then what goes on in some of the development threads on XDA.
I'm talking about the threads specific to development of a Rom/os whatever... and you end up getting the
"WOOHOO THATS LIKE AWESOME MAN"
"WHen Can I have Wifi"
"Why isnt wifi working"
"ETA?"
etc.. etc..
And then you get the complete idiots that respond with
"This is a development thread shutup"
"Dude this is development thread, you are only supposed to talk about development stuff"
etc...
Why not just make all development threads fully moderated? As in, the post doesn't appear unless approved by the OP/Mod's...
If you wanted to customise it further, you could allow "teams" to be able to post in the thread and moderate.
Some devs like having a lot of posts in their threads. Maybe they think the extra page views help them get more people interested and they might be right. Some amount of small talk is always going to be posted since people make friends over time. It is really up to the OP of that thread, if they complain, then the mods will act.
Lol, think about how much time/manpower that would take....
It would be the most time consuming and soul destroying job ever to burden a man/womans shoulders..
In an ideal world its the perfect solution and you're right. I just don't think it's feasible.
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face.....
conantroutman said:
Lol, think about how much time/manpower that would take....
It would be the most time consuming and soul destroying job ever to burden a man/womans shoulders..
In an ideal world its the perfect solution and you're right. I just don't think it's feasible.
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face.....
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Lol..I was just about to say that..If something like the above thingy needed to get approved,xda would have to hire nearly 500 mods(just a rough calc.) and assign a minimum of 10 mods to every forum
mf2112 said:
Some devs like having a lot of posts in their threads. Maybe they think the extra page views help them get more people interested and they might be right. Some amount of small talk is always going to be posted since people make friends over time. It is really up to the OP of that thread, if they complain, then the mods will act.
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Not for all threads, but if you have a read through http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1782009&page=40 as an example you have maybe 5% dev related threads and the rest are morons bickering.
conantroutman said:
Lol, think about how much time/manpower that would take....
It would be the most time consuming and soul destroying job ever to burden a man/womans shoulders..
In an ideal world its the perfect solution and you're right. I just don't think it's feasible.
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Wasnt thinking in terms of Official Board mods, more the OP and those who he/she wish to grant permissions to approve the posts in their thread.
I'd think a more practical solution would be to give those who post threads in a Development forum control over their thread, I.e. the ability to delete anyone else's post. This way, they could choose themselves what is posted and decide the amount of development related stuff there is.
Nigeldg said:
I'd think a more practical solution would be to give those who post threads in a Development forum control over their thread, I.e. the ability to delete anyone else's post. This way, they could choose themselves what is posted and decide the amount of development related stuff there is.
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Also a good idea. I think as long as the OP can assign control to others its practical.
In the case of Dev threads, I'd rather a non devvy friend keep it clean then the dev who should be developing
I agree. I'm extremely new here and to Android development as well, but I've scoured, searched and read for answers to my questions (i.e. GPS issues, etc.)
I have forum experience and the overall issue with people not searching or at least reading the thread is pretty common, but here it seems to hinder development progress in ROMs and the like.
Even more so, some people sound like they're flat-out complaining and completely ungrateful for the work that's being done, which I don't believe should be tolerated.
Sent from my Inspire 4G with Beats Audio using xda app-developers app
WordsworthESP said:
Even more so, some people sound like they're flat-out complaining and completely ungrateful for the work that's being done, which I don't believe should be tolerated.
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Which makes you wonder how many possible dev's decide not to do anything because of a seeming lack of support from the community as a whole.
Most would have a day job, and a life. People expect these poor buggers do work on a rom 24/7 just so they can get their damn camera working on an SDK version of an os... its craziness.
Better user education can help to a degree.
[GUIDE] How to be a New User (and not a noob)
EndoSurf said:
Not for all threads, but if you have a read through http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1782009&page=40 as an example you have maybe 5% dev related threads and the rest are morons bickering.
Wasnt thinking in terms of Official Board mods, more the OP and those who he/she wish to grant permissions to approve the posts in their thread.
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Again, granting permissions would need to be done by an admin and powers to delete will never be granted to anyone.
It's really up to the op how much off topic they will tolerate and if they want a thread cleaned all they have to do is ask.
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face.....
Seems to me that a lot of people have thin skin around here now adays. SO what's the big deal someone new comes along and asks opinions? We used to do it all the time and the other developers did not get so easily offended. It's just an opinion of someone using that particular ROM and in no way it says you suck! Lighten up for crying out loud. There is a lot of BS in every thread I ever been on and most of them don't get into thousands of posts because everyone is talking about the ROM or helping someone out. Stop censoring people!
For one thing, its clutter, for another, it can be easily mistaken for a "bad rom/good rom scenario. It eventually winds down to a spiraling tornado of arguments and next thing you know, devs leave. Either way.. there is NO such thing as a best rom. You can't label something factual on personal opinion. Instead of asking for a good rom, try them out and see for yourself what the hype is about. And for those spamming to get the 10 posts, actually make them helpful sounds like a lot, but its not that hard.
Seriously. Get over it.
So what? They usually get gone by the way side. I have never seen anything like this on XDA as what's going on lately. And this is not about what's the Best ROM. are you saying that even questioning the new rules gets threads closed? Is this what XDA has come to? Is that why some of the best people have left? And no, I am not going to mention names.
BTW, I am just saying what a lot of people are thinking. Everybody is a newby at one tome or another and some go on to contribute to this site. Making them feel like crap when they first get here only damages us all.
ejc1214 said:
Seems to me that a lot of people have thin skin around here now adays. SO what's the big deal someone new comes along and asks opinions? We used to do it all the time and the other developers did not get so easily offended. It's just an opinion of someone using that particular ROM and in no way it says you suck! Lighten up for crying out loud. There is a lot of BS in every thread I ever been on and most of them don't get into thousands of posts because everyone is talking about the ROM or helping someone out. Stop censoring people!
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You may think of it as censorship and all that is entailed with that line of thinking but just remember 1 little thing from back when you registered at this site:
xda-developers Registration said:
...The owners of xda-developers reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for any reason ...and agree to abide by the xda-developers rules
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I am right there with ya as far as what your trying to say, but always remember that we agree to abide by the rules of these forums when we sign up.
Have a nice day!
Sure, the owners. Are the owners or the moderators that develop ROMs making the decisions? Just saying that for years nothing was going on and now this is happening. Some people just want opinions to try things so what? In the scheme of things is it really killing this site? Nope!
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=30238970
This is a good example thanks to our mod buddy..
I have been around, since 2007, and I can tell you that these sort of rom comparison, what's best, etc threads have always been considered useless and generally closed.
Its a matter of opinion, some people love themed roms, some may not, some may like AOSP, sense, whatever, its to much of a personal choice for this sort of thread to be anything other than a yelling contest, and I have seen enough turn into 1) devs advertising their roms or 2) a flame war between users saying that their favorite dev is the "best".
Also, XDA is about learning, we are not here to spoonfeed you, read, search, learn, we did it, so why shouldn't you? (you in this case referring to the sort of people who open these threads and get shot down for it).
I also won't tolerate flaming or trolling, so if you see what you consider to be a silly thread, report it, move on, don't respond, you are just making it worse.
If anyone wishes to discuss the finer points of XDA's rules, feel free to PM me.
And on that note, thread closed.
veyka said:
I have been around, since 2007, and I can tell you that these sort of rom comparison, what's best, etc threads have always been considered useless and generally closed.
Its a matter of opinion, some people love themed roms, some may not, some may like AOSP, sense, whatever, its to much of a personal choice for this sort of thread to be anything other than a yelling contest, and I have seen enough turn into 1) devs advertising their roms or 2) a flame war between users saying that their favorite dev is the "best".
Also, XDA is about learning, we are not here to spoonfeed you, read, search, learn, we did it, so why shouldn't you? (you in this case referring to the sort of people who open these threads and get shot down for it).
I also won't tolerate flaming or trolling, so if you see what you consider to be a silly thread, report it, move on, don't respond, you are just making it worse.
If anyone wishes to discuss the finer points of XDA's rules, feel free to PM me.
And on that note, thread closed.
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Or pm me
See what I did there
Thread reclosed lol
XDA Moderator
I am not a pro user of these forums, but I would like someone, especially the Mods to make a thread about most popular roms of DHD and let people vote.. It would give one an idea of what rom is trending and what is the most widely used.. Sure would help ignite the competition too ..
If any such thread already exists on this forum, please tell me...
You can do it yourself...and you might be the first one to do so (i havent searched to see if there is one out there already...)
It is not done do the fact we are all tired of hearing the same question over and over again what's the best rom what's a solid stable rom and they all get closed. Each rom works different for everyone. What's good to one is utter crap to another and your topic will only start a flaming war hence the reason why such threads are closed. Only you can tell what's good for you by trying a few out or reading comments on the devs threads. Hmm I think I hear zels footsteps.
Sent from my Ice Cold Inspire 4G
Reinaldo33897 said:
It is not done do the fact we are all tired of hearing the same question over and over again what's the best rom what's a solid stable rom and they all get closed. Each rom works different for everyone. What's good to one is utter crap to another and your topic will only start a flaming war hence the reason why such threads are closed. Only you can tell what's good for you by trying a few out or reading comments on the devs threads. Hmm I think I hear zels footsteps.
Sent from my Ice Cold Inspire 4G
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Might be nice to centralize it though. No comments, just a pure poll. (Not sure if there's a way to do that.) It might cut down on the one-post immediately-closed "which is the best ROM" threads.
A poll with no comments may work.
Sent from my Ice Cold Inspire 4G
Well there is something similar. Its not a poll.. but it gives a pretty decent breakdown on the roms currently available broken down into categories Jellybean, ICS, GB etc. It might help out?
>>> Development List <<<
fallenkirmit said:
Well there is something similar. Its not a poll.. but it gives a pretty decent breakdown on the roms currently available broken down into categories Jellybean, ICS, GB etc. It might help out?
>>> Development List <<<
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Yeah, I know about that, but I see a lot of threads opened that basically ask "I'm new, what is the most popular/best/favorite ROM?" The index gives a good list of available ROMs, but it doesn't shed a lot of light on how many people use each one, which seems to be what newbies would like to know (to help them decide which to install). Maybe a poll would cut down on such threads. I've PMed a mod to see if such a poll would be well-received.
salman1497 said:
I am not a pro user of these forums, but I would like someone, especially the Mods to make a thread about most popular roms of DHD and let people vote.. It would give one an idea of what rom is trending and what is the most widely used.. Sure would help ignite the competition too ..
If any such thread already exists on this forum, please tell me...
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I completely disagree, bcoz u can't compare all the efforts of devs. Every single piece of their work is truly admirable. Whatever they have done is absolutely priceless.
Sent from my HTC Desire HD
I didn't mean that devs work isn't priceless, of course that is commendable!! And its not strict comparing either.. I just meant that one should have idea about new trending romS and also how many people are using which rom.... I know one rom may be excellent for someone and crap for another, have probably flashed more than 100 roms myself. I am just taking about the current trend of roms
Sent from my HTC Desire HD using xda app-developers app
I agree with a poll with no comments, just a simple poll with rom names allowing members to state what they are using, we don't need to know their reasons why.
One thing I don't always understand is people read threads, see what features the rom has but still want other people to tell them.... Just install it and have a look yourself! Most common case I've seen is in the Sabsa Prime thread as it's what I use, people ask for updates and then when one comes along, they ask people to try it out and report back if it's worth updating. Grrrrr!! It's your phone, you want the updates so try it out and see if it suits YOU. Simples.
Sent from my HTC Desire HD using xda premium
I see a lot of talk, but no one stepping in to start a poll? You guys do realize anyone can start poll as a part of the thread!!
ai6908 said:
I see a lot of talk, but no one stepping in to start a poll? You guys do realize anyone can start poll as a part of the thread!!
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I have PMed the mods (since they would need to lock comments) a couple times. No response yet.
The mods say that locking a thread while leaving the poll open is not possible.
bananagranola said:
The mods say that locking a thread while leaving the poll open is not possible.
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I saw your PM yesterday and had been giving it some thought. It looks like my co-moderator has contacted you already and let you know that the system will lock the poll as part of closing thread. Even if it was possible to separate the two, I'd be inclined to close down polls like the one you suggest. While some of you might think a poll like this a good idea, it smells a bit too much like a popularity contest.
Some of you may already know that many moderators in other forums have a wholesale ban on "Best ROM" threads. This is because a lot of these threads tend to be a breeding ground for rivalries and disrespecting others' work that can degenerate into infighting and other nastiness. I don't want to be heavy-handed on this topic because I see some benefit to discussions that compare/contrast ROMs and kernels IF they are done objectively and with respect for others. The last part of this is the most important here.
You might have already seen comments that say, "there is no best, try it and see what you like" and that's true. We all have different needs and likes, so there can be no best, but some sharing of knowledge and experiences with various ROMs can be helpful to others. Again, all of this needs to be done objectively and with respect for others. There's already a thread in General with many opinions and nobody's been really causing any trouble there, so I suggest all of you continue those discussions there. Please... no "best" polls.
I'm sorry to threadjack this from the OP, but since the idea has been shot down, I welcome your thoughts on the matter. If you don't want to air it out publicly, my PM box is always open.
kinfauns said:
...(edited for brevity)...
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Thanks for explaining. I just thought that a more centralized and easy-to-read format would help newbies who are confused when they first see that (seemingly endless) list of ROM threads that is so appealing to those of us who've been around a little longer. But I respect your position and it makes sense. Also, without the comment-locked-forum option, I agree that these types of threads do tend to degenerate.
I'll get straight to the point.
The nature of our Development Forums on XDA have changed dramatically since the G1 days and unfortunatly its a change for the worst, its hitting in my opinion rock bottom with less and less people willing to contribute. Back when Android was born and XDA opened its doors to us G1 users we were all there for one reason. To LEARN!
The thirst for knowledge and understanding was exciting and thrilling, being the first to discover something new and letting it be free and available to all who wanted, to strive to break down the barriers that our providers put before us and set us all free! It was to be a complete geek and openly honest a complete rush for me and all of us.
Just writing about it sends a shiver down my spine I so enjoyed it all back then. But todays culture seems to be one of spoon feeding information to people who have no idea what they actually have in there hands, and to be frank would look at me cross eyed if I told them to use terminal emulator to enter a command! Now dont get me wrong I'm no linux expert I'm not even a beginner but I took time to learn terminal commands for Android to help further our community by not asking dumb questions and knowing what a search engine was!
So for my proposal and discussion as a community is.....
Should we allow the developers to HAVE the Developement forums?
We currently have General forums with support threads so basically if your not a developer you simply can't post in there. Lets give the devs somewhere they can talk with other devs and concentrate solely on development and not reading 15,000,000 pages of posts like 'The rom didn't work its rubbish' and replying back to all these people to try and gain some peace to work.
Well I have had my say and I look forward to some serious intelligent debate on this.
How exactly do you differentiate between a dev and non-dev? Also, there are plenty of non-dev users who find valuable info for the people doing the actual dev work.
WCCobra said:
How exactly do you differentiate between a dev and non-dev? Also, there are plenty of non-dev users who find valuable info for the people doing the actual dev work.
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Easy. Can you build a rom? Do you know your arse from your elbow? And have you heard of google?
If you answer Yes to all three you're probably a dev.
No seriously you are perfectly correct and I understand what you are saying but again why couldn't we have that same discussion/help/suggestion here? Its basically the same and the devs can check in whenever they like as they already have to in their development threads now. We have help threads here that are basically unused because they are cluttering up the devs thread instead. We need to look at encouranging devs to stay and this to me gives them that and a lot more would be achieved I feel.
Perhaps a way for devs to have a open or closed thread.
Like asylum rom. There is discussion thread and a development thread.
Maybe an option to allow only recognised developers or senior members in a thread.
I agree junior members (noobs) are a pain in the ass.
I tought myself mostly by reading threads and figuring things out.... Why can't they? I don't know... I try to play nice though sometimes the stupidity bassles me.
A blacklist option or a "kick ban from thread" option for the dev. If someone is anoying to other members or just clutters the thread this would be a nice implementation for a dev.
Send from my Omega/perseus powered SGN2
Don't see this being implemented anytime soon. Thread will probably be closed as well. Sad but true. People will always ask assisine questions that can be solved by searching or wiping.
Sent from my HTC One S using xda app-developers app
adolfo778 said:
Don't see this being implemented anytime soon. Thread will probably be closed as well. Sad but true. People will always ask assisine questions that can be solved by searching or wiping.
Sent from my HTC One S using xda app-developers app
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God knows I understand that but again why not let this be the forum to ask them in?
I'm no dev. I'm far from it. But I can totally agree with what you say about it being different from the g1 days. I too get a little... Choked up...
I didn't even know what adb ment, let alone how to work it. Took me hours just to figure out and set up.
After rooting and handling updates for all my buddies phones plus my own... I'm a little more comfy. But I can't build a ROM.
There definatley a problem with people not reading. I mean... "Does cam work on this ROM?" Its answered on every page. I've seen it answered 3 posts before the question was asked.
Xda-Etiquette got lost somewhere along the way. Some things are too advanced for new android users. If it was, I didn't touch. New members don't think like that.
Read read read. Post in general or q&a. Don't clutter up dev threads with "thanks" and "help... I brick!".
Learn what a brick is. Lol.You don't have to be the first with s-off when you don't even know what it means. Wait til it becomes easier. Don't lose a device cuz you want to be on the cutting edge but don't even know what fastboot means.
Bs in the other topics. When you click that "android development" button, keep your mouth shut and read. Nothing most of the xda users, myself included, can say would be productive and helpful to devs.
And to end... I still <3 xda.
Sent from my One S using xda app-developers app
DisruptiveMind said:
God knows I understand that but again why not let this be the forum to ask them in?
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Xda has gotten a lot more traffic Since the g1 days so noob questions are expected. I imagine if the mods were to implement your idea. Alot of those threads and members would be left with unanswered questions, plus you don't have to read the 500 pages in each thread just the OP we read through the pages to pass time
And most devs already talk to each other via iirc and gtalk and popular ROMs such as venom have there own forums. The difference is xda gets more traffic. More traffic = more downloads. Plus what fun is it if all the threads are serious, and devs dont get to bag on noobs
Sent from my HTC One S using xda app-developers app
adolfo778 said:
Xda has gotten a lot more traffic Since the g1 days so noob questions are expected. I imagine if the mods were to implement your idea. Alot of those threads and members would be left with unanswered questions, plus you don't have to read the 500 pages in each thread just the OP we read through the pages to pass time
And most devs already talk to each other via iirc and gtalk and popular ROMs such as venom have there own forums. The difference is xda gets more traffic. More traffic = more downloads. Plus what fun is it if all the threads are serious, and devs dont get to bag on noobs
Sent from my HTC One S using xda app-developers app
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Once again they can! They just do it in here instead when the devs need a laugh. All help and dumb questions can be answered here in the General Forum meaning people would actually be more likely to read at least something of the first post in the Development Forum because its not as daunting knowing there is another 100 pages of posts to read following it.
Did you remember to fastboot flash the boot.img?
Thx for this thread, it always helps to discuss issues if they occur. In any case there is no need for closed dev threads @ XDA, since this would lead to believe we are only developing for our own pleasure. Reality is we all enjoy to push the envelope and share it with other guys in the forum. We all need and want feedback, so it`s not a problem XDA can solve.
All we can do is try to educate users, that we are happy to help them as long as they try to search for answers first either in the thread, on XDA or Google. Users in dev thread need also understand the following:
All custom ROM`s have bugs (so do stock ROM`s)
Not all these bugs are ROM related, in many cases the problem sits in front of the device.
If it`s a real bug, just report it, but don`t be demanding. Most of us just publish stuff here for pure pleasure of sharing and cause we are proud, that we could enhance the user experience with new features.
Users really need to understand, that we don`t have an obligation to update stuff in a certain time frame. We do that in our free time and it`s just a hobby.
Users should especially behave in a friendly manner and be respectful with everyone in the threads.
So bottom line - don`t expect XDA to solve the issues, we as a community must learn to respect each other and understand there`s more important stuff in life then a phone.
Edit: Maybe except the new ONE :laugh::angel::silly:
Well again I find myself saying all that can be done here, I never once said I wanted the Development thread closing or to create a nature of 'building for themselves' we could all still have access and well would need it to download roms so I don't understand where you are coming from on that point. Why do we have a support thread in General if the support is offered in the roms thread?
And to be honest as we need to be I have seen you yourself getting annoyed by the questions that pop up time and time again as has many other devs leading to yet more and more posts about ego wars and the tiredness of answering the same thing again and again and again. Simply let that stuff stay in here otherwise not only is General but Q&A forums seem to be somewhat pointless as no matter how hard you try being nice about it users will never learn. A place where real Developers can go and know the community takes care of the 'silly' stuff, as a developer yourself I would assume you would appreciate not having to spend so much time reading all the pointless posts that appear. You say rightly that you do this as a hobby and in your free time so wouldn't it be better if you knew you had somewhere to get away from it so to speak and spend that time doing work on your rom/s?
The stupid questions are just plain laziness. I'm basically a noob, this is my first android phone and I just got it last October. I can't remember even asking any questions, maybe as couple, literally. I'm usually the one helping out people who have been using android longer than me. In October, I remember having to look up what a kernel even was. Lol. So, yeah, people just have you seriously just read more, but don't just follow steps, try to understand what you are actually doing. Just following steps, you won't learn nothing.
HTC_One_S | Xparent_ICS_Blue_Tapatalk 1.06_Hboot_Downgrade | Root_Box | Bubba_Kernel_2.8b | S-OFF
I don't think things will ever change. There are always going to be lazy, entitled noobs who want to be spoon fed. Changing that I think would be a losing battle. I'm not saying we should encourage them, but fighting and flaming simply won't ever change things. I think we should simply continue helping those who've shown they have no problem making the effort to help themselves and ignore the ones who want everything handed to them.
I find it useful hearing people combo's and results i know it can be redeemed 'as hard to the teams'
but end of the day there full grown men there not going to lose sleep over it it will just make them work harder right?
Anyone just my opinion whole point in this is to see others opionon
I'm so confused right now.....
I remember there was a thread in Galaxy S2 section named "Whats your best combo for S2" . It was highly participated and even mods didn't removed it .
maxpower7 said:
I'm so confused right now.....
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No idea whats happening here
Why do people have to be so cryptic? This makes absolutely no sense to me either.
what ban?
this thread should be removed.
I think OP is referring to the forum rule that we can't have a thread dedicated to discussing which are the best kernels.
Whelan189 said:
I find it useful hearing people combo's and results i know it can be redeemed 'as hard to the teams'
but end of the day there full grown men there not going to lose sleep over it it will just make them work harder right?
Anyone just my opinion whole point in this is to see others opionon
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If this confusing mass of words is asking why "best rom/best kernel" threads aren't allowed, it's because it's a highly subjective topic without a right or wrong answer. Your mileage may vary, as they say. Also, by allowing this type of thread, the moderators could be seen as favoring one developer over another. This is a place where development is encouraged and devs would not be happy with someone else's work being promoted above theirs. Because of the subjective nature of the topic (and the fact that there are undoubtedly thousands or even millions of possible setups), it doesn't add anything to the community to ask for people to spoonfeed you what works best for them. Do some flashing and figure out what works best for YOU, not someone else.
It is only logical to have that ban. If the ban would be lifted, users will continuosly praise one or few developers, and discouraging users from trying other kernels. Without users, devs would not be motivated to contribute. Less contributions = less inovations and in the end-effect stagnation of development. Devs respect and cooperate with each other.
Read the development threads, try the kernels your self, and decide what is best for you.
not to mention that all that will happen is you will just get a listing of all the kernels and roms, since people will list what they use. and on top of that, everyone thinks that the rom and kernel that they are using is the best rom/kernel. eventually people start arguing, and the thread will get closed anyways. there is no best kernel or rom. we all have differing needs, and they all react differently on our differing devices.
maxpower7 said:
If this confusing mass of words is asking why "best rom/best kernel" threads aren't allowed, it's because it's a highly subjective topic without a right or wrong answer. Your mileage may vary, as they say. Also, by allowing this type of thread, the moderators could be seen as favoring one developer over another. This is a place where development is encouraged and devs would not be happy with someone else's work being promoted above theirs. Because of the subjective nature of the topic (and the fact that there are undoubtedly thousands or even millions of possible setups), it doesn't add anything to the community to ask for people to spoonfeed you what works best for them. Do some flashing and figure out what works best for YOU, not someone else.
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^^^This is really a very solid answer to why we do not allow them on xda^^^.
If you want the short answer.
Trying out ROMs yourself is part of what XDA Developers is about. If you're too lazy to do this and would like others to do it for you, this website might not be for you.
So this really is not open for debate and no poll or petition is going change our stance on this.
Thread Closed