Develop Bugs

How safe is clockworkmod recovery

Does clockworkmod overwrite the stock recovery? If it does then to me it is not a safe method to root a phone. If something goes wrong while flashing clockwork you will lose the stock recovery and can never reflash anything else. Is my understanding correct? This is why I am hesitant to root my phone. Please advice.
Thanks.

datzstr8 said:
Does clockworkmod overwrite the stock recovery? If it does then to me it is not a safe method to root a phone. If something goes wrong while flashing clockwork you will lose the stock recovery and can never reflash anything else. Is my understanding correct? This is why I am hesitant to root my phone. Please advice.
Thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its fairly safe. You could always flash the recovery thru odin found here:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1332103

Has anyone tried to flash clockwork and failed? What happened afterwards? I assume odin won't work anymore because it requires a recovery partition to work.
I guess what I am still confused about is if clockwork writes over the stock recovery or does it keep the stock recovery in-tacked. I would prefer the later since then you can never break your phone.

With my dilemma would it be best for me to not install clockwork and just use an insecure kernel? Thanks.

It does overwrite the stock recovery i believe. But its very safe to flash. Ive never heard of someone borking a phone installing cwm recovery.

I have literally NEVER had a problem with clockworkmod, it's one of the best pieces of mobile software I've ever used.

kabuk1 said:
I have literally NEVER had a problem with clockworkmod, it's one of the best pieces of mobile software I've ever used.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Whole heartedly agree.
Sent from my SGH-T989 using xda premium

datzstr8 said:
Has anyone tried to flash clockwork and failed? What happened afterwards? I assume odin won't work anymore because it requires a recovery partition to work.
I guess what I am still confused about is if clockwork writes over the stock recovery or does it keep the stock recovery in-tacked. I would prefer the later since then you can never break your phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Odin has NOTHING to do with the recovery partition. ODIN only works in download mode on your phone. You can have a blank recovery partition and it'll still work, as well as the rom, and flashing other things too. The recovery partition stock has one function, to do a factory reset incase of problems. (Not to be confused with the one from inside android, that only formats /data. This one replaces the system partition as well.) CWM is very safe, I really wouldn't worry about it. Just follow the instructions carefully and you'll be fine.
Also, once you get cwm installed on there, I'd suggest doing a backup before you make any changes. Always handy to have your stock image at hand, just incase.
And also, even with stock recovery, you can still break your phone. It's not easy to brick a GS2, but it can be done. Just remember, as long as you can get the phone into download mode, it's not bricked. You can always odin back the stock partitions if you run into issues.

I was a little worried about using it with this phone. No problems to report. Just had to make backup in recovery.
Sent from my SGH-T989 using xda premium

Thanks mstrk242 for the great explanation. I thought the "download" and "recovery" were two states of a single program. It is clear now that they are separate. You just cleared all my worries.
You said "It's not easy to brick a GS2, but it can be done," can you tell me how this can happen? Just curious. Thanks much.

If you're going to be rooting/flashing at all, you'll have to get comfortable with cwm, Odin, and the other tools that are available for the phone.
This is my second Android phone, both have been rooted with custom roms, and at any point I've run into trouble (which is rare) I've found the tools and the help I need on here by searching a little bit. If you're willing to spend the time doing a bit of reading and know your way around a computer a bit, you won't have a problem. Just make sure you're 100% sure whatever you're flashing is for YOUR phone hardware.
It's not nearly as scary as it sounds once you get going on it and there's a lot to benefit from it.
Cheers and good luck.
Sent from my SGH-T989 using xda premium

datzstr8 said:
Thanks mstrk242 for the great explanation. I thought the "download" and "recovery" were two states of a single program. It is clear now that they are separate. You just cleared all my worries.
You said "It's not easy to brick a GS2, but it can be done," can you tell me how this can happen? Just curious. Thanks much.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Easiest way is to flash a rom for the wrong phone and mess up the partition table. (IE flash an international version of the gs2 rom, you'll brick.)
As long as you get cwm installed on there, and flash the correct roms, you should really be ok.

You can go back to the stock recovery easily. You can do it through Odin or flash an unroot rom
Sent from my SGH-T989 with ClockworkMod ★Touch★ Recovery 5.8.1.3

Clockworkmod Recovery Incessantly Freezing

---First off, let me preface this by acknowledging the fact that, yes, I am indeed a noob. And I'm sure some of the info I'm going to put in here probably isn't needed, but as I said, I am a noob, and thus am not entirely sure what is relevant and what is not. I also apologize if some of what I say and/or what I did doesn't make sense and/or is idiotic, but again, noob. That being said I don't have any techie friends and never really had a nack for this kind of stuff, but hey gotta start somewhere right? So, that being said, here's my dilemma:
This all started last week when I was downloading the CyanogenMod Nightlies *Rom. The download started and was going along just fine when my phone suddenly turned off and starting vibrating and then wouldn't turn back on. Everything I would press power it would just start vibrating in regular one second intervals over and over. Finally I remove the battery. It turns back on fine. Download resumes. And... Bam! Happens again. This time I try the same remove to no avail and about 15 minutes later I'm thinking that this is it for my phone when it finally reboots. So I decide, alright, lemme just download this Rom and try to flash it, or at the very least just restore the phone and hope this is a software issue. So I had also just downloaded Rom Manager and was going into recovery via Clockworkmod recovery as the instructions prompted me to in the CyanogenMod tutorial. Now every other time I have installed a new Rom I just manually boot into recovery as the phone turns on. This time I boot into the Clockworkmod recovery though cuz I wanna follow the directions to the "T" and I proceed to selecting the factory reset and it wipes the data and freezes when wiping the cache. So I'm sitting there like, "Oh s**t, what do I do now?" I let it sit for fifteen minutes hoping it will magically unfreeze and all will be right in the world, but it doesn't and I reset the phone via the power button. Then it boots up and tells ne there a issue with my custom OS and I'm not really are what to do here. So, i reboot it and it acts like the reset was successful and prompts me to set up my phone like I just flashed the Jedi Mind Trick Rom I've been using. So I tried again, and same thing. Got stuck on clearing the cache. Luckily it lets me set up the phone again after I interrupt the frozen factory reset. This time I try to boot into recovery manually, pressing the hard keys, and all the phone does is restart. So I try again. And again. And again to no avail. I look up the key sequence thinking I may have forgotten it and am doing it wrong, but after trying every combo I can find online, it still doesn't work. So I give up and go into recovery via clockworkmod and restore my phone to my very first nandroid backup I made before I ever started messing with custom roms, and everything goes fine it seems until it gets to a command about something revolving cache and it freezes again! I eventually have to reset it and it gets stuck in a loop where the Samsung logo comes up, it makes a loud annoying beeping noise for a few seconds before it turns off and does it all over again. Now I'm sure I've bricked my phone. I take out the battery, wait, put it back in, but still nothing. I do this a few more times, wait and hour, and it finally boots up. So now I try to go into recovery manually again, but still just get the phone resetting. I try to go uninstall clockworkmod and go into recovery via Rom toolbox pro, but I still get the clockworkmod recovery rather than the phone's normal recovery I used to be able to get to before I ever installed clockworkmod. So I'm stuck here. I know that's a lot of info, but I didn't want to leave anything out incase it was important. Thanks in advance for any advice and/or directions you can give me. *
P.S. I read in someone's post here that the first issue of the phone turning off and vibrating could be the result of a bad power sensor. So I wanted to add that since this two mysterious restarts and vibrations, nothing like that has happened in the... Approximately 5 days since (for whatever that's worth). *
Thanks again, and I apologize for any ignorance you have encountered while trying to read this post.

OK seriously... save yourself the trouble and just flash TWRP recovery instead.
Sent from my SGH-T989 using xda app-developers app

Missing some needed info...
Current status? What do you have access to? Recovery? Does the ROM boot?
Any issues with the phone right now? (You say no mysterious reboots for 5 day now, just confirming)
Recovery version? If you're using CWM I would suggest against using ROM manager. I would also suggest you do use the darkside scripts for wiping your phone.
Exact ROMs you flashed?

whatiznt said:
OK seriously... save yourself the trouble and just flash TWRP recovery instead.
Sent from my SGH-T989 using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok. Checked it out and got twrp. I clicked install openrecoveryscript. It downloaded. Didn't restart or anything. Now can I just flash the new Rom I want directly from there then? All it says it that I must have installed the recovery script. Just wanted to know though, is it still right that when I reboot into recovery it goes to the cwm recovery? Just wanna make sure before I go messing up my phone.
Thanks!

mintharis said:
Missing some needed info...
Current status? What do you have access to? Recovery? Does the ROM boot?
Any issues with the phone right now? (You say no mysterious reboots for 5 day now, just confirming)
Recovery version? If you're using CWM I would suggest against using ROM manager. I would also suggest you do use the darkside scripts for wiping your phone.
Exact ROMs you flashed?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Currently I'm running the stock ICS Rom for the phone. Ill attach a screenshot of the specifics. I can go into cwm recovery but anything related to cache freezes. No issues with the phone other than I can't use my hard keys to boot into recovery when restarting the phone, if that even counts. I'm using cwm v6.0.1.4 and really I don't want to use cwm, how do I go about changing that? And I downloaded the darkside supervise and cache wipe. Do I just use those instead of the factory reset in the cwm recovery? Or did I read into that wrong?
Thanks!

I thought the new version of CWM was freezing, but it just takes FOREVER to do your first backup because it's building the blobs or whatever they are called. The second backup went fine, however, I think it's too much headache and went back to the 5.0.2.7. Call me crazy but I'm still very hesitant to use TWRP after the wave of phone bricks that happened a few months ago from people installing it.. I'm still not convinced its totally safe and stable..

VoiD_Dweller said:
I thought the new version of CWM was freezing, but it just takes FOREVER to do your first backup because it's building the blobs or whatever they are called. The second backup went fine, however, I think it's too much headache and went back to the 5.0.2.7. Call me crazy but I'm still very hesitant to use TWRP after the wave of phone bricks that happened a few months ago from people installing it.. I'm still not convinced its totally safe and stable..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Now when you day forever, what are you talkin here? I waited a very long time. Regardless though sounds like an easy solution so ill try this real quick and see. You think just reverting back to use 5.0.2.7. Would solve the cache problems I've been running into or would I have to try to clear that up first and then this would work?
Thanks!

jalight27 said:
Currently I'm running the stock ICS Rom for the phone. Ill attach a screenshot of the specifics. I can go into cwm recovery but anything related to cache freezes. No issues with the phone other than I can't use my hard keys to boot into recovery when restarting the phone, if that even counts. I'm using cwm v6.0.1.4 and really I don't want to use cwm, how do I go about changing that? And I downloaded the darkside supervise and cache wipe. Do I just use those instead of the factory reset in the cwm recovery? Or did I read into that wrong?
Thanks!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, the darkside scripts were used in older cwm recoveries because the default wipes didn't do the job. As for switching away from cwm I'm guessing you want to jump to twrp. You can do that by following the instructions at http://teamw.in/project/twrp2/101

same thing happened to me on cwm v6.0.1.4 so this is what i did
1. flash an older version of cwm thru odin (search "cwm recovery tar t989")
2. reboot to cwm
3. darkside cache wipe (hopefully that will get to your homescreen, if not, super wipe and new rom that *****)
4. when you are at your homescreen, download and install goomanager from store
5. open it, tap the menu button, hit Install OpenRecoveryScript
6. reboot to recovery
7. now you have twrp, have fun

Thanks for the steps there. Pretty much did a combo of what everyone was saying. Went back to an older version of cwm and used darkside wipes. Then wouldn't you know? It worked! Yay for me. So I'll just keep my older version of cwm, for now at least. Well, anyway, thanks to everyone for helping me figure this out. Much obliged!

jalight27 said:
Now when you day forever, what are you talkin here? I waited a very long time. Regardless though sounds like an easy solution so ill try this real quick and see. You think just reverting back to use 5.0.2.7. Would solve the cache problems I've been running into or would I have to try to clear that up first and then this would work?
Thanks!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Forever like being 10 minutes min, maybe 15

ClaireH said:
same thing happened to me on cwm v6.0.1.4 so this is what i did
1. flash an older version of cwm thru odin (search "cwm recovery tar t989")
2. reboot to cwm
3. darkside cache wipe (hopefully that will get to your homescreen, if not, super wipe and new rom that *****)
4. when you are at your homescreen, download and install goomanager from store
5. open it, tap the menu button, hit Install OpenRecoveryScript
6. reboot to recovery
7. now you have twrp, have fun
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1.
Just happened to me last night. I was using CWM 6.0.1.4 touch version and finally crash without reason.
I almost tried to ODIN back to stock/unroot, then I thought it might be possible just re-flash the CWM recovery to 5.0.2.7 version.
And it works!
try to avoid 6.0.1.4 version at this time. lots of issues.
btw, twrp is better than CWM? what's the difference? how do I activate the recovery menu from boot?

fe1ixs said:
+1.
Just happened to me last night. I was using CWM 6.0.1.4 touch version and finally crash without reason.
I almost tried to ODIN back to stock/unroot, then I thought it might be possible just re-flash the CWM recovery to 5.0.2.7 version.
And it works!
try to avoid 6.0.1.4 version at this time. lots of issues.
btw, twrp is better than CWM? what's the difference? how do I activate the recovery menu from boot?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep, same thing I ended up doing, thought I posted that but I guess I never did. I ended up using the darkside wipes and going back to an older version like you and someone else said. Now everything's just fine. And btw, to get into recovery from boot just restart it holding power, volume up, and volume down at the same time. Then once you see the Samsung logo let go of the power button but keep holding volume up and down till you see the recovery menu.

[Q] What Am I Doing Wrong...?

I have unbricked this phone probably 15 times in the past day trying to just install a custom ROM.
I run through the unbricking process, get root, load the stock AT&T ROM, factory reset, and it boots just fine from there. However, after I load Clockwork Mod and try to load any custom ROMs at all, the phone will just bootloop forever. It also appears to remove the Clockwork Mod recovery image as well, since I no longer am able to get back into recovery after the flash of the new ROM.
I've scoured this forum for hours, and I'm at a complete loss. Any ideas?
P.S. I made a backup of my ROM before doing all of this using the latest version of Clockwork Mod, but was unable to restore it. It seems that the 6.x.x.x version of the recovery for this phone is busted in some way, it always reports that it can't access any of the root folders, even though the phone has been rooted. The 5.x.x.x versions don't seem to do this, but I still have issues flashing.

SectorNine50 said:
I have unbricked this phone probably 15 times in the past day trying to just install a custom ROM.
I run through the unbricking process, get root, load the stock AT&T ROM, factory reset, and it boots just fine from there. However, after I load Clockwork Mod and try to load any custom ROMs at all, the phone will just bootloop forever. It also appears to remove the Clockwork Mod recovery image as well, since I no longer am able to get back into recovery after the flash of the new ROM.
I've scoured this forum for hours, and I'm at a complete loss. Any ideas?
P.S. I made a backup of my ROM before doing all of this using the latest version of Clockwork Mod, but was unable to restore it. It seems that the 6.x.x.x version of the recovery for this phone is busted in some way, it always reports that it can't access any of the root folders, even though the phone has been rooted. The 5.x.x.x versions don't seem to do this, but I still have issues flashing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is it possible that your hosts file needs modifying when installing the AT&T ROM? If the LG Support tool connects to LG's servers instead of your local http you set up, it will load the official ICS and completely wipe your phone to install that ROM... With my limited amount of knowledge, that's about all I could see if the process removes CWM Recovery.
Also, CWM 6.x is working fine for me, even manually flashed the touch recovery a few minutes ago, backed up my ROM and installed an updated ROM. No problems at all.

SectorNine50 said:
I have unbricked this phone probably 15 times in the past day trying to just install a custom ROM.
I run through the unbricking process, get root, load the stock AT&T ROM, factory reset, and it boots just fine from there. However, after I load Clockwork Mod and try to load any custom ROMs at all, the phone will just bootloop forever. It also appears to remove the Clockwork Mod recovery image as well, since I no longer am able to get back into recovery after the flash of the new ROM.
I've scoured this forum for hours, and I'm at a complete loss. Any ideas?
P.S. I made a backup of my ROM before doing all of this using the latest version of Clockwork Mod, but was unable to restore it. It seems that the 6.x.x.x version of the recovery for this phone is busted in some way, it always reports that it can't access any of the root folders, even though the phone has been rooted. The 5.x.x.x versions don't seem to do this, but I still have issues flashing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't know if anyone has tried the unbrick method with the new version of cwm but you might try twrp. When a similar version of cwm was in beta there were all sorts of issues. So maybe they haven't been fixed. Also are you installing cwm from GB? ICS has a locked boot loader so that might also be an issue.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1888910
Now I would start with the unbricking guide for a 16th time but follow the directions to install twrp instead of cwm. You might also find you like it better. Good luck.
Sent from my LG-P930 using xda app-developers app

lordcheeto03 said:
Is it possible that your hosts file needs modifying when installing the AT&T ROM? If the LG Support tool connects to LG's servers instead of your local http you set up, it will load the official ICS and completely wipe your phone to install that ROM... With my limited amount of knowledge, that's about all I could see if the process removes CWM Recovery.
Also, CWM 6.x is working fine for me, even manually flashed the touch recovery a few minutes ago, backed up my ROM and installed an updated ROM. No problems at all.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't believe that the unbricking process would work if the hosts file was wrong, but I checked it again anyway, and it appears to be correct.
The AT&T ROM gets pushed via the abd shell after the unbrick and rooting process. The root appears to work, as the AT&T ROM that I push works fine, it's just not the ROM I want!
Swetnes said:
I don't know if anyone has tried the unbrick method with the new version of cwm but you might try twrp. When a similar version of cwm was in beta there were all sorts of issues. So maybe they haven't been fixed. Also are you installing cwm from GB? ICS has a locked boot loader so that might also be an issue.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1888910
Now I would start with the unbricking guide for a 16th time but follow the directions to install twrp instead of cwm. You might also find you like it better. Good luck.
Sent from my LG-P930 using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
After the unbricking process (after I get through all the nonsense on the Korean ROM), the phone is running the GB AT&T ROM, from there I push the CWM recovery.img to the phone using the abd shell. All seems to be working perfectly up until I go to flash the custom ROM! I don't get any errors when I flash the .zip either.
Initially I had installed CWM 6.x.x.x using the ROM Manager application. That's before all this nonsense started, and the phone was on the stock (but rooted) AT&T ICS ROM, so I know that's why I "bricked" my phone the first time.
I'll give TWRP a shot, hopefully that will work.

SectorNine50 said:
I don't believe that the unbricking process would work if the hosts file was wrong, but I checked it again anyway, and it appears to be correct.
The AT&T ROM gets pushed via the abd shell after the unbrick and rooting process. The root appears to work, as the AT&T ROM that I push works fine, it's just not the ROM I want!
After the unbricking process (after I get through all the nonsense on the Korean ROM), the phone is running the GB AT&T ROM, from there I push the CWM recovery.img to the phone using the abd shell. All seems to be working perfectly up until I go to flash the custom ROM! I don't get any errors when I flash the .zip either.
Initially I had installed CWM 6.x.x.x using the ROM Manager application. That's before all this nonsense started, and the phone was on the stock (but rooted) AT&T ICS ROM, so I know that's why I "bricked" my phone the first time.
I'll give TWRP a shot, hopefully that will work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok so we know it's not the boot loader issue of ICS after dozens if not hundreds of successful installs using the unbricking guide the only thing left is the new version of cwm. Hopefully twrp will do the trick for you. Has anyone out there successfully completed the unbricking guide with the new version of cwm?
Sent from my LG-P930 using xda app-developers app

Swetnes said:
Ok so we know it's not the boot loader issue of ICS after dozens if not hundreds of successful installs using the unbricking guide the only thing left is the new version of cwm. Hopefully twrp will do the trick for you. Has anyone out there successfully completed the unbricking guide with the new version of cwm?
Sent from my LG-P930 using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I haven't tried the TWRP recovery a shot yet, since I haven't been home, but I figured it was worth pointing out that the CWM 5.x.x.x (can't remember exact version numbers right now) didn't work for me either. Every time I flashed a ROM, I'd end up with a boot loop on first boot, and then when I'd try to go back into recovery, I'd find that it wouldn't go back in there either.
It was basically acting like when I flashed the ROM that it overwrote the recovery partition, except no one else seems to have this same issue. Yet, if I didn't flash a ROM, I was able to go in and out of CWM recovery as often as I wanted.
Bah.

SectorNine50 said:
I haven't tried the TWRP recovery a shot yet, since I haven't been home, but I figured it was worth pointing out that the CWM 5.x.x.x (can't remember exact version numbers right now) didn't work for me either. Every time I flashed a ROM, I'd end up with a boot loop on first boot, and then when I'd try to go back into recovery, I'd find that it wouldn't go back in there either.
It was basically acting like when I flashed the ROM that it overwrote the recovery partition, except no one else seems to have this same issue. Yet, if I didn't flash a ROM, I was able to go in and out of CWM recovery as often as I wanted.
Bah.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can you clarify exactly what method you are using to flash the ROM? I just can't imagine a scenario where flashing a ROM would overwrite the recovery. What ROM are you flashing?
Also, please confirm what phone you have.

drumist said:
Can you clarify exactly what method you are using to flash the ROM? I just can't imagine a scenario where flashing a ROM would overwrite the recovery. What ROM are you flashing?
Also, please confirm what phone you have.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sure, I may be using the wrong term (my first experiences with custom ROMs date back to Windows Mobile, so the terminology probably blends together), but I'm basically loading the .zip from the SD Card in CWM. I've tried both the CM9 P930 ROM and Paranoid Android CM10.
That was my thought too, I didn't think that the custom ROMs even had recovery images in them. I may be wrong in saying that it deletes CWM, but after the wipe and flash I am no longer able to access it.
I have the LG Nitro HD, and from what I can gather, that is the P930, correct? I hope the issue I'm having is as simple as I'm flashing for the wrong phone...
By the way, thank you all for your help and input, I really appreciate it!

SectorNine50 said:
Sure, I may be using the wrong term (my first experiences with custom ROMs date back to Windows Mobile, so the terminology probably blends together), but I'm basically loading the .zip from the SD Card in CWM. I've tried both the CM9 P930 ROM and Paranoid Android CM10.
That was my thought too, I didn't think that the custom ROMs even had recovery images in them. I may be wrong in saying that it deletes CWM, but after the wipe and flash I am no longer able to access it.
I have the LG Nitro HD, and from what I can gather, that is the P930, correct? I hope the issue I'm having is as simple as I'm flashing for the wrong phone...
By the way, thank you all for your help and input, I really appreciate it!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You are correct, the Nitro is P930. And I'm sure this doesn't need pointing out, but when you download the ROM, make sure it's for P93x and not SU640. Most of the ROMS in the developer section have versions for both models.
Also, when you say you can't access CWM after flashing a ROM, how are you trying to access it? Holding Power+Volume down until the Factory Reset screen pops up? It still shows that screen even with CWM installed, but when you press the power button to perform the factory reset it SHOULD take you into CWM Recovery instead.

SectorNine50 said:
Sure, I may be using the wrong term (my first experiences with custom ROMs date back to Windows Mobile, so the terminology probably blends together), but I'm basically loading the .zip from the SD Card in CWM. I've tried both the CM9 P930 ROM and Paranoid Android CM10.
That was my thought too, I didn't think that the custom ROMs even had recovery images in them. I may be wrong in saying that it deletes CWM, but after the wipe and flash I am no longer able to access it.
I have the LG Nitro HD, and from what I can gather, that is the P930, correct? I hope the issue I'm having is as simple as I'm flashing for the wrong phone...
By the way, thank you all for your help and input, I really appreciate it!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To access recovery, turn the device completely off. (If you're in a bootloop, pull battery or hold power button for ~20 seconds until screen stays off.) Then when phone is off, press and hold volume down and power buttons at the same time, not releasing until you see text asking if you want to factory reset. Press power button twice to confirm and you'll get to recovery.
Is this the method you're using to try to get to CWM?
My guess as to why you are getting bootloops is that you aren't wiping data first.

Yup, that's how I'm accessing CWM. After the flash, after I press the power button twice, I get something similar to a boot loop. A recovery boot loop, if you will.
Well, I've tried a couple ways now. I've tried using the "factory reset/wipe user data" menu item in CWM, and I've tried going into each partition and wiping them individually before flashing as well.
Just got home, I'll try flashing using the TWRP and let you guys know.

SectorNine50 said:
Yup, that's how I'm accessing CWM. After the flash, after I press the power button twice, I get something similar to a boot loop. A recovery boot loop, if you will.
Well, I've tried a couple ways now. I've tried using the "factory reset/wipe user data" menu item in CWM, and I've tried going into each partition and wiping them individually before flashing as well.
Just got home, I'll try flashing using the TWRP and let you guys know.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good luck. Other possible things to try:
1) Check zip MD5 hash (or just redownload and replace) to make sure it's not corrupted.
2) Reformat entire SD card.

Interesting update:
I decided to give getting back into CWM recovery one more shot before I went through the process of re-unbricking again, and this time it managed to get in (for whatever reason).
So, I did a factory wipe, cleared dalvik cache, flashed the ParanoidAndroid ROM, backed out, did another factory wipe, and tried to reboot into the newly flashed ROM.
No luck. Boot looped, and didn't even get to the ROM animation. Following that, I had trouble getting back into the CWM recovery. Managed to try about 5 times and finally got in, however CWM stated:
Code:
CWM-based Recovery v5.0.2.7
E:Error in /cache/recovery/last_log
(Read-only file system)
So... my phone may have potentially unrooted it's self, somehow... Interestingly, it still shows the file systems as mounted.
So, now I'm doing a full SD card reformat. Figured I'd get that variable out of the way before I go any further.

SectorNine50 said:
Interesting update:
I decided to give getting back into CWM recovery one more shot before I went through the process of re-unbricking again, and this time it managed to get in (for whatever reason).
So, I did a factory wipe, cleared dalvik cache, flashed the ParanoidAndroid ROM, backed out, did another factory wipe, and tried to reboot into the newly flashed ROM.
No luck. Boot looped, and didn't even get to the ROM animation. Following that, I had trouble getting back into the CWM recovery. Managed to try about 5 times and finally got in, however CWM stated:
Code:
CWM-based Recovery v5.0.2.7
E:Error in /cache/recovery/last_log
(Read-only file system)
So... my phone may have potentially unrooted it's self, somehow... Interestingly, it still shows the file systems as mounted.
So, now I'm doing a full SD card reformat. Figured I'd get that variable out of the way before I go any further.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You are installing the wrong version of CWM. Never use anything older than 5.8.2.0. This is the one you want: http://download2.clockworkmod.com/recoveries/recovery-clockwork-5.8.2.0-p930.img
Anything older than that is known to not work.
Second thing: You seem to have an incorrect understanding of what "root" means. Having "root" simply means you have administrator access to your current ROM. When you install a new ROM, whether you had root access to your old ROM is meaningless frankly.

drumist said:
You are installing the wrong version of CWM. Never use anything older than 5.8.2.0. This is the one you want: http://download2.clockworkmod.com/recoveries/recovery-clockwork-5.8.2.0-p930.img
Anything older than that is known to not work.
Second thing: You seem to have an incorrect understanding of what "root" means. Having "root" simply means you have administrator access to your current ROM. When you install a new ROM, whether you had root access to your old ROM is meaningless frankly.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ah, thank you! I must've been viewing an old thread. Now that I look at the version number, it appears that's the version I had been hunting for since the newest one didn't work.
Interesting, I most certainly misunderstood, I was under the impression that "rooting" the device was a filesystem level permission change. Good to know!
It seems like we are getting closer to a solution here. Thanks for your patience!

Well, that appears to have been my problem the whole time! That's kind of embarrassing, considering how much time I sunk into this and how simple the solution was!
Anyway, thank you all very much! I assume that TWRP would have also solved my problems as well. It would seem that both the older and newest versions of CWM have some problems (at least for me!).

SectorNine50 said:
Well, that appears to have been my problem the whole time! That's kind of embarrassing, considering how much time I sunk into this and how simple the solution was!
Anyway, thank you all very much! I assume that TWRP would have also solved my problems as well. It would seem that both the older and newest versions of CWM have some problems (at least for me!).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, the new one (6.0.1.5) just came out. I'll have to test it to see if it works for me.

For what it's worth, I haven't had any issues with 6.0.1.5 yet. The touch version is a must, though.

Malnilion said:
For what it's worth, I haven't had any issues with 6.0.1.5 yet. The touch version is a must, though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have you had a chance to compare to twrp?
Sent from my LG-P930 using xda app-developers app

Swetnes said:
Have you had a chance to compare to twrp?
Sent from my LG-P930 using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I really enjoy the integration Rom Manager/CM Updater has with CWM. If twrp is capable of running the install scripts those two use, I might consider trying it out, but I don't really like manually going through the steps to flash a rom every day.

[Q] How to go from 4.0.3 Jedi Mind Trick to Cyanogenmod 10.0.0 Stable Release

Hello all just bought a new Samsung Galaxy SII from craigslist already rooted with 4.0.3 Jedi Mind Trick. After reading for what seems 4-5 hours i have been trying to put together how to properly without bricking switching it to 10.0.0 Stable as i use to use Cyanogenmod 2-3 years ago on my devices. Seem alot of things have changed and there is a cluster**** of stuff out there now. If you could direct me to a how to or show me how to do it i would greatly appreciate it!
Thanks all!

Assuming you have nothing personal to back up that you can't just download from google play or your google account again: download cyanogen 10 and it's gapps. reboot into recovery mode. factory reset, wipe data, wipe system, wipe cache, wipe dalvik. pick the install zip from sd card or so option, browse to cyanogen, then install gapps the same way. wipe dalvik again and reboot.

I was thinking of doing this myself JMT to CM10. I didn't think there was anything special to do same as flashing from any other ROM to CM10. If there is a special requirement I would think they'd post in in with the ROM post information.

Alawishis said:
I was thinking of doing this myself JMT to CM10. I didn't think there was anything special to do same as flashing from any other ROM to CM10. If there is a special requirement I would think they'd post in in with the ROM post information.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
so I attempted to install it and got stuck on the boot logo for 20 minutes or so. So I bricked it lol... Anyway I just flashed it with Odin to 2.3.5 but the link to download file for root capabilities is broken. What can i do? Do i have to go to ics first before i reattempt to go to 10.0.0?

melvinator said:
so I attempted to install it and got stuck on the boot logo for 20 minutes or so. So I bricked it lol... Anyway I just flashed it with Odin to 2.3.5 but the link to download file for root capabilities is broken. What can i do? Do i have to go to ics first before i reattempt to go to 10.0.0?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
honestly - i backed up everything to my external and then formatted the internal when i went from TW to AOSP for the last time. well worth it. nice folder clean up and then you can just manually take all the stuff you want back.
and you should just be able to odin on cwm or twrp - then flash the rom of your choice.

new ion? said:
honestly - i backed up everything to my external and then formatted the internal when i went from TW to AOSP for the last time. well worth it. nice folder clean up and then you can just manually take all the stuff you want back.
and you should just be able to odin on cwm or twrp - then flash the rom of your choice.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
trying to look up how to do that now .... Searching the forum now... Might you be able to tell me real quick how? I already Downloaded the 5.2 file they suggest to use but can't find a working toturial that is just for flashing the cwm.

melvinator said:
so I attempted to install it and got stuck on the boot logo for 20 minutes or so. So I bricked it lol... Anyway I just flashed it with Odin to 2.3.5 but the link to download file for root capabilities is broken. What can i do? Do i have to go to ics first before i reattempt to go to 10.0.0?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you get stuck at the boot logo, it's called a soft brick. You don't have to use ODIN or go back to ICS. Just make sure the ROM zip you downloaded isn't corrupt (check the size/m5d if possible), wipe everything, and reboot into recovery to try installing again.

arcsine said:
If you get stuck at the boot logo, it's called a soft brick. You don't have to use ODIN or go back to ICS. Just make sure the ROM zip you downloaded isn't corrupt (check the size/m5d if possible), wipe everything, and reboot into recovery to try installing again.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I already used Odin to go back to 2.3.5
Btw I appreciate the help
My woman's is waiting that I fail to say I told you so -_-

melvinator said:
I already used Odin to go back to 2.3.5
Btw I appreciate the help
My woman's is waiting that I fail to say I told you so -_-
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You won't fail. Follow the guidelines step by step. Print it out, make notes. Anything. Read. The step by step guide works... that'll get you with cwm. Then, you can flash the zip you will put on your phone... either a SU zip or just a rooted ROM. Follow flashing instructions.
Just realized - you'll be way better off if, once you have cwm on, just format the internal ONCE YOU HAVE A ROM ON AN EXTERNAL SD CARD. then flash CM10. THEN you'll have a fresh AOSP install.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-T989 using xda premium

new ion? said:
You won't fail. Follow the guidelines step by step. Print it out, make notes. Anything. Read. The step by step guide works... that'll get you with cwm. Then, you can flash the zip you will put on your phone... either a SU zip or just a rooted ROM. Follow flashing instructions.
Just realized - you'll be way better off if, once you have cwm on, just format the internal ONCE YOU HAVE A ROM ON AN EXTERNAL SD CARD. then flash CM10. THEN you'll have a fresh AOSP install.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-T989 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
how long does the boot logo stay on for?
Had 2.3.5 - rooted via odin and have recovery 5.2.6 - did everything in proper order and wiping properly.
what am i skipping here? Still spinning taunting me, wish there was a way it would tell me if i did something wrong.

melvinator said:
how long does the boot logo stay on for?
Had 2.3.5 - rooted via odin and have recovery 5.2.6 - did everything in proper order and wiping properly.
what am i skipping here? Still spinning taunting me, wish there was a way it would tell me if i did something wrong.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Go back, format system, and then reinstall.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-T989 using xda premium

Update your recovery to twrp or cwm 6+ and don't use dark side scripts
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2

Please excuse my harshness but this is not as hard as many make it seem. I would say if it takes you more than a couple attempts maybe it is just not for you. I only say this because I would hate to see you mess up your phone. Now if you think a bootloop is a brick then we need to do things at a slower pace with you.
If you already have your phone rooted then
1.download goomanager from the playstore and then
2.open it up and allow it to grant permission from CM
3.hit menu button while goo manager is open
4.click on install OpenRecoveryScript
5.let it do its thing
6.reboot into your new TWRP recovery
7.Wipe/Data Factory Reset
8.Flash Rom
9.Flash Gapps
10.Reboot
You can throw in a backup of files somewhere in there if you like.... Your choice

melvinator said:
how long does the boot logo stay on for?
Had 2.3.5 - rooted via odin and have recovery 5.2.6 - did everything in proper order and wiping properly.
what am i skipping here? Still spinning taunting me, wish there was a way it would tell me if i did something wrong.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I had a bootloop when using CWM v6.0.1.5. So a friend of mine told me he had success with CWM v6.0.1.5 Touch. So I switched to the touch recovery and... SUCCESS.
Here's the link to CWM touch and non-touch:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1893464

A boot loop could mean a bad download or bad flash but it is most definitely NOT a bricked device. All you needed to do was get a fresh download and move it to your SD card by mounting it in recovery. Then, wipe EVERYTHING but the SD. EVERYTHING. Then flash the ROM, Gapps and whatever radio. I go from CM to AOKP to other random TW roms all the time and never have issues.

The 2 best recoveries are twrp or my favorite because I'm used to it is cwm 6.0.1.5. http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1844637
Also if your phone boot loops don't freak out' just either reboot to see if that works out first and if not reboot into recovery. Also with these new recoveries do not use dark side scripts.
Factory reset
Format system
Format cache
Format data
Flash ROM
Flash gapps
Reboot and enjoy
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-T989 using xda premium

This did it!
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-T989 using xda app-developers app

Sorry for the necro on the thread, but I didn't want it to be stated I didn't look around some either.
I am going from JMT to CM and want to make sure it's as seamless as possible. I use CWM and usually usually use darkside complete wipes, but I read in a previous post not to use darkside. Is there a reason for this? I can't see why this wouldn't work as it's just a wipe.
Also I use Titanium Backup. Is it possible to backup my apps and data and restore them since its not TW any longer? I want to be able to restore as much of my data as possible and make sure I don't lose it.
P.S. - If thread necroing is not appreciated, I apologize.

Cannot get past boot logo on any ROM

Of all the things I have screwed up, I can't believe my first post asking for help is this one. I have been rooting and installing custom ROM's since the EVO. Always found the help I needed in someone else' thread. But this has me stumped.
I am a ROM jumper. Do it all the time. Yesterday, I was having some performance issues with my Note2 so I thought I would do a full wipe and try out another ROM. I also wiped my internal storage. My recover at that time was philz_touch_6.19.3-t0ltetmo. Somehow, I ended up wiping everything and I couldn't boot into anything other than Download mode.
Still no biggie. Wait until I got home and I would flash some with via Odin on my Windows netbook. It never worked. It would maybe get to 25% complete and hang. I left it running for about an hours with no results. Then I moved to my Linux desktop and installed Heimdall. Used that to put philz_touch_6.19.3-t0ltetmo back on the device. Then I installed cm-10.2-20140309-NIGHTLY-t0ltetmo.zip via sideload.
Stuck on smiling robot with a circle.
So I sideloaded CARBON-KK-NIGHTLY-20140302-0859-t0ltetmo.zip. Stuck on the logo there too. aokp_t0ltetmo_kitkat_nightly_2014-02-25.zip same thing. I try pushing the ROM's instead of sideloading. No luck.
So I am thinking that maybe I got a bad philz recovery. Redownload that, and go through the same list of roms. Nothing. OK... so maybe philz has become a POS for some reason on my phone. I try openrecovery-twrp-2.7.0.0-t0ltetmo.zip and repeat all the steps above. Wiping and sideloading, then wiping and pushing... stuck on logo.
I have to say I am stumped. I am losing nerd cred by asking for help, but dammit I am stumped. Any help appreciated.

Most phones have been recovered by flashing stock image, you can give it a shot.
Sent from my SGH-T889 using xda app-developers app

ciphercodes said:
Most phones have been recovered by flashing stock image, you can give it a shot.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Eww. Does that have to be flashed via Odin/Heimdall or can I use my established recovery? Also, I looked at some of those earlier and they are all in ZIP format. Odin wants TAR.MD5. Is it as simple as unziping and then tar-ing? I don't see an option to TAR.MD5.

marriedman said:
Eww. Does that have to be flashed via Odin/Heimdall or can I use my established recovery? Also, I looked at some of those earlier and they are all in ZIP format. Odin wants TAR.MD5. Is it as simple as unziping and then tar-ing? I don't see an option to TAR.MD5.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The easiest option would be to flash the tar.md5 file using ODIN.
If you are 4.3 bootloader you can flash this MrRobinson's ROM
http://www.androidfilehost.com/?fid=23252070760975435
If you are 4.1.2 bootloader you can flash this ROM, download link on post#1
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2636552
If you plan to flash it using Heimdall you will have to first extract the tar.md5 file and then flash all ROM components.
Your command should be something like this, please note I have not tried flashing using Heimdall so I am not 100% it will work.
sudo heimdall flash --BOOT boot.img --RECOVERY recovery.img --SYSTEM system.img --CACHE cache.img --HIDDEN hidden.img --RADIO modem.bin

ciphercodes said:
The easiest option would be to flash the tar.md5 file using ODIN.
If you are 4.3 bootloader you can flash this MrRobinson's ROM
http://www.androidfilehost.com/?fid=23252070760975435
If you are 4.1.2 bootloader you can flash this ROM, download link on post#1
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2636552
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good stuff, thank you cipher.
Perhaps I am missing something here though. I went to check which version bootloader I have. I just assumed I would have 4.3 since I have been running JB & KK rom's for the past month or so; but I wanted to double check. When I boot into recovery, it doesn't show it there. When I boot into download mode, it doesn't show it there either. Where should I be seeing the version number?

When you boot into download mode do you see KNOX Warranty Void below system status ?
If not then your phone is not on 4.3 bootloader.
Sent from my SGH-T889 using xda app-developers app

Yes, it shows KNOX WARRANTY VOID: 1
So then I have 4.3. Thanks for the info. When I get home tonight, I will try and flash MrRobinson's ROM then report back. Thank you for the help & I will post my results then.

Well, that took care of it. I was able to use MrRobinson's ROM & Heimdall. I did have to download a PIT file, but that was easily found here on xda. Within minutes I had the gawd awful Samsung TW blooping and making stupid noises. Went ahead and flashed TWRP and I am downloading CarbonRom now.
Thanks for the help cipher. It was driving me nuts.

um... mark as solved?
I tried to edit my original post to mark it as solved, but there isn't an option. How do I change my title?

Well, I spoke too soon. I just discovered that I have no cell service. Went to look and found I have no IMEI # anymore. WTF?

Looks like you flashed a modem for a different device.
No worries, just flash the modem from Mr Robinsons ROM and that should take care of it.
Sent from my SGH-T889 using xda app-developers app

I wish it were that simple. I just reflashed MrRobinsons and it is back to Samsung recovery and rom. Still no IMEI. I am going to go full retard and flash the one from SamMobile. I'll erport back later.

Mrrobinsons ROM is the stock rom, it's just root injected and Knox-free.
Try KIES emergency recovery method.
You can find link for procedure in this forum in one of the posts.
Sent from my SGH-T889 using xda app-developers app

Just saw this and I am on my way to work. With no Admin priviledge there, I will have to try this when I get home.
I appreciate the time you have taken to help me cipher.

OKay, I downloaded Kies and it saw my phone. However, it says my phone is fine and will not do an emeregency recovery. After searching on here some more, I found this thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2261153
It's possible that Emergency Recovery is no more. I am just about done with this phone. It's been three days and I need a working phone again.

marriedman said:
Of all the things I have screwed up, I can't believe my first post asking for help is this one. I have been rooting and installing custom ROM's since the EVO. Always found the help I needed in someone else' thread. But this has me stumped.
I am a ROM jumper. Do it all the time. Yesterday, I was having some performance issues with my Note2 so I thought I would do a full wipe and try out another ROM. I also wiped my internal storage. My recover at that time was philz_touch_6.19.3-t0ltetmo. Somehow, I ended up wiping everything and I couldn't boot into anything other than Download mode.
Still no biggie. Wait until I got home and I would flash some with via Odin on my Windows netbook. It never worked. It would maybe get to 25% complete and hang. I left it running for about an hours with no results. Then I moved to my Linux desktop and installed Heimdall. Used that to put philz_touch_6.19.3-t0ltetmo back on the device. Then I installed cm-10.2-20140309-NIGHTLY-t0ltetmo.zip via sideload.
Stuck on smiling robot with a circle.
So I sideloaded CARBON-KK-NIGHTLY-20140302-0859-t0ltetmo.zip. Stuck on the logo there too. aokp_t0ltetmo_kitkat_nightly_2014-02-25.zip same thing. I try pushing the ROM's instead of sideloading. No luck.
So I am thinking that maybe I got a bad philz recovery. Redownload that, and go through the same list of roms. Nothing. OK... so maybe philz has become a POS for some reason on my phone. I try openrecovery-twrp-2.7.0.0-t0ltetmo.zip and repeat all the steps above. Wiping and sideloading, then wiping and pushing... stuck on logo.
I have to say I am stumped. I am losing nerd cred by asking for help, but dammit I am stumped. Any help appreciated.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok first off, dont have tmobile, but i do have a note (verizon)
What do you mean when you say you are "sideloading" "pushing" a ROM.. Bc normally in recovery you "flash" a rom.
So let's make sure you are doing just that..?
If you are "flashing" a rom in recovery and it installs and you reboot and you are stuck.. thats a different issue..
I would recommend getting your stock Odin tar and flashing it..Make sure it contains a boot.img and if you guys use a pit file.. use that as well..
Post here with some answers and results..Lets see if we can get you back in buisness..
I have HARD bricked my phone, fired eMMC, softed bricked..pretty much been through everything so hopefully we can figure it out!:good:
The main thing is DON'T get frustrated.. I know it's hard but that when you make mistakes and PANIC

lacoursiere18 said:
What do you mean when you say you are "sideloading" "pushing" a ROM.. Bc normally in recovery you "flash" a rom.
So let's make sure you are doing just that..?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Originally, I could not boot into any rom. I could get into recovery. In order to get a rom onto the phone, I could download the zip file to my computer and inside the recovery turn on sideload to move the file to the phone and flash. And Even then I never got any of the roms to get past the boot logo. Cyanogenmod, Carbon-rom, AOKP... none of them.
I would recommend getting your stock Odin tar and flashing it..Make sure it contains a boot.img and if you guys use a pit file.. use that as well..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yup, I did that. I tried doing it through Heimdall since I am a Linux guy. I can install a stock or stock based rom, but there is never a IMEI number. From what I can tell, the EFS partition is just gone & I never backed it up. I lost the IMEI and it is not coming back.
The main thing is DON'T get frustrated.. I know it's hard but that when you make mistakes and PANIC
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh, I agree. I stepped away from it for about 8 hours a day while at work. Thats when I did most of my reading though. I am pretty sure this is going up for sale on ebay this week. I already bought a new phone. Thank you for taking the time to reply though.

marriedman said:
Originally, I could not boot into any rom. I could get into recovery. In order to get a rom onto the phone, I could download the zip file to my computer and inside the recovery turn on sideload to move the file to the phone and flash. And Even then I never got any of the roms to get past the boot logo. Cyanogenmod, Carbon-rom, AOKP... none of them.
Yup, I did that. I tried doing it through Heimdall since I am a Linux guy. I can install a stock or stock based rom, but there is never a IMEI number. From what I can tell, the EFS partition is just gone & I never backed it up. I lost the IMEI and it is not coming back.
Oh, I agree. I stepped away from it for about 8 hours a day while at work. Thats when I did most of my reading though. I am pretty sure this is going up for sale on ebay this week. I already bought a new phone. Thank you for taking the time to reply though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have you tried flashing the latest firmware, and if yes is this where you got it?
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2102380
Also did you read post #2 about going back into recovery, do a factory reset and reboot?
And were you getting these roms that would loop you in this forum, just making sure i know it may sound stupid..
Also, what was the estimated time you were waiting for them to boot..5mins, 10mins, 20mins.. Some take longer than others..
The only other thing i could suggest is JTAG services, by MobileTechVideos, the owner's name is Josh, stand up guy, and I belive it much cheaper than buying a new device =)

lacoursiere18 said:
Have you tried flashing the latest firmware, and if yes is this where you got it?
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2102380
Also did you read post #2 about going back into recovery, do a factory reset and reboot?"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep & yep. I also tried MrRobinsons root injected rom before going this route.
And were you getting these roms that would loop you in this forum, just making sure i know it may sound stupid..
Also, what was the estimated time you were waiting for them to boot..5mins, 10mins, 20mins.. Some take longer than others..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have had some take as long as 20 minutes before, but that was rare. This time, I actually fell asleep and when I woke up in the morning, it was still on the animated boot logo and hot as hell. Still going though. So it was at least 6 hours thst timr.
The only other thing i could suggest is JTAG services, by MobileTechVideos, the owner's name is Josh, stand up guy, and I belive it much cheaper than buying a new device =)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've not heard of this, I'll look them up. Thanks!